False flag operation
Readers who haven’t recently suffered a blow to the head will probably recall that “Better Together” campaign director Blair McDougall was quoted in the Scotsman last week (in a story which WAS considered worthy of coverage), bitterly complaining that the Yes campaign had used the phrase “best of both worlds”, which for some reason he appeared to believe was his exclusive possession.
The fine gentleman above was pictured on Glasgow’s Buchanan Street on Saturday. He also appears to be toting some borrowed property. Can you spot it?
Of course, we’re not saying that anyone who advocates a No vote isn’t Scottish. But we can’t help wondering why, if you’re driving around covered in “UK OK” banners and insisting that the United Kingdom is brilliant, why wouldn’t you be flying the United Kingdom’s flag? That’s normally how patriotism works, isn’t it?
Could it be that people know the Union Jack isn’t actually terribly popular in Scotland (well, except in a single location every other week), and that they’re more likely to get a civil reception from people if they fly the emblem of the place that they’re desperately trying to stop from becoming a proper nation with a properly national flag?
Yes supporters don’t OWN the Saltire. It belongs to all of Scotland, and will still do so after 2014. But the referendum IS ultimately a matter of which flag(s) will or won’t fly above Scottish buildings, like Edinburgh Castle (below).
And in that specific political dispute, when it comes right down to the bones of it, the Saltire is our flag and the Union Jack is theirs. “Better Together” has no “Scotland OK” banners. So why are they so ashamed to be seen on the streets with their own symbol that they’re using the other side’s?
Active camo springs to mind.
The contrary cringe?
LOL Trundling around Glasgow with Union flags?…if he wanted to I think his bottle went.
“when it comes right down to the bones of it, the Saltire is our flag and the Union Jack is theirs.”
No sure I agree with this Rev as I don’t see the debate being primarily about flags. I don’t quite understand why a UKOK supporter would want to fly a Saltire, given a lot of the No side comes down to arguing Scotland isn’t a real country: if you believe Scotland is a country, why would you think it should be run from the capital of another country? And if you don’t believe it’s a country, why wave its flag?
But if someone does want to be pro-union and fly the Saltire, I don’t see why they should be disallowed. Similarly, I grew up a mod and associate the Union jack mostly with the Who and 60s music and culture. Right now, I wouldn’t want to wear a UK jacket out on the streets of Scotland, but I’d be damned if I’d allow Better Together to say I *couldn’t* do that because I’m voting Yes.
If someone loves the UJ, loves the Queen and loves British culture but thinks Scotland should run itself anyway, I’d say welcome aboard to the Yes campaign. So if someone from the UKOK side wants to wave the Saltire, they equally should be welcome. We’re all Scottish after all. Lets win with debate and passion rather than flags. They only bring trouble, imo. In any case, the NO side will be using the UJ massively next year, so those on the no side who favour the Saltire might find themselves a bit put off by that.
The unionists lost all right to the Saltire after depicting it first as a Nazi symbol and then all the outcry they made over Alex Salmond waving it at Wimbledon
THE SALTIRE IS A NATIONALIST SYMBOL – make sure people don’t forget that.
“The unionists lost all right to the Saltire after depicting it first as a Nazi symbol and then all the outcry they made over Alex Salmond waving it at Wimbledon”
Aye, well there is that.
As you say The Union Flag is associated with a certain football club in Govan….rightly or wrongly in Scotland it is primarily associated with the activity and behaviour in the more repulsive elements of that support…..and as a result not ddisplayed by many.
A semantic point but isn’t the Union Flag ours as well….even after a YES vote ?
The Union Flag of course being the flag made up by Jimmy the 6th when he blagged English throne to go with his Scottish een….in other words it ‘celebrates’ the Union of the Crowns not Union of the Parliaments….and therefore along with the Saltire and EU stars thing will become one of the flags of an Independent Scotland ?
Pretty certain Eck said something similar last year sometime on the Andrew Marr Show
If the man in the picture is genuinly a no voter does he realise how difficult life for him or anyone in his circumstances will become if the no vote wins. How does he think he is going to get by in a privatised heath care system. Someone should tell him some home truths.
There is a very similar looking buggy which regularly carries anti bedroom tax posters. Can’t say for sure it’s the same guy, but can’t say it isn’t. Hmm.
My guess would be that the Togethers will increasingly use both, with the message being Scotland belongs to the UK, no part of it is Scottish Scottish.
How else could the Scptsman on Sunday photoshop the Saltire to distort the cross into a Swastika and there be not a word said about it from the rest of the press in Scotland.
Headline at the courier / for info
Councillor claims she faced anti-English racism on Wings Over Scotland website
link to thecourier.co.uk
Among the comments from a man called Gordon Bain, one said Ms Cruickshank had sworn at him before she “dived under the table”.
She said other comments claimed the Better Together campaign had “bussed” in a Geordie woman to man the stall, while others questioned her colour.
She said: “At first, I laughed at the photographs and even appreciated the skill someone has, as a photo of me has been superimposed on to an endless number of derelict sites throughout Scotland.
“But the other postings on this website show a very sinister side to the ‘Yes’ campaign.
“These racist and anti-English comments would not be tolerated in a football ground and would certainly not be tolerated in any workplace, so why is this website allowed to continue supporting this type of material?”
already commented on this rubbish ; just see how much coverage it gets
// for Mr Bain if you know him
The Smears :
It goes on Judah, it goes on !
MY 2yr old just pointed at the top picture and declared “ooohhh, racing car!” I’m sure he didn’t mean it to sound quite as sarcastic as it did!
Remember Steel & Owen had the “Battlebus” in the 80s??
How times have changed!
THE SALTIRE IS A NATIONALIST SYMBOL
Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with this. The Saltire is a national symbol, not a nationalist one.
Hey I thought it was the Labour candidate she beat for the council job that threw absolute confusion into the ring by saying she was black (clearly he had no idea who we were talking about but that just added to the fun mix). She can’t accuse us of that, we were all saying like WTF? What a drama queen!
Was in one of those cheapo supermarkets the other day, just looking through various junk they have in bays, got to the only one that was spilling over. Low and behold it was car Union Jack flags. Nuff said.
It’s Glasgow. He’s a patriotic Yes voter who got fly postered while he was waiting at the traffic lights. (On the other side is a poster for a nightclub.) He doesn’t even know they are there yet.
I recently saw a retired fellow in an electric wheelchair with a terry-towelling union jack seat cover. I wonder if it is the same man?
.in other words it ‘celebrates’ the Union of the Crowns not Union of the Parliaments
What it celebrated when it was created is interesting, but irrelevant. What it has become, officially, is the flag of the United Kingdom and, to many, a badge of shame.
I have commented many times and on many forums if these Unionists are so committed to United Kingdom of Great Britain and northern Ireland.
Why do they go to the voters as Scottish labour Party , Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Scottish Liberals?
If Union is so great why do they not go as British labour party Butcher’s apron et al.?
Most people will have just seen the saltires and have thought UKOK was an advert for a new cocktail. So I commend the fellow for his sterling efforts!
Maybe he’s an Orangeman? NI Loyalists are quite fond of flying Saltires alongside their Union Flags, UVF flags and Israeli flags.
Bitter together is quite clearly ashamed of the union jack. If you are going to parade about celebrating how wonderful the UK state is, it is odd, to say the least, to not at least use the correct flag.
The truth is, that bitter togehter are trying a bit of deception. They know most Scots (quite rightly) have not got the time of day for the union jack, so instead they fly the saltire.
Yet again, proof if proof were needed, that there is not positive case for union. Heck, bitter together can’t even make a case for the UNION jack, never mind the union.
They say the parthenon atop Calton hill, is Edinburgh’s disgrace, but every time I see the castle, I cannot help but think that the English colonial ‘union jack’ on the castle, is the real disgrace. It is a reminder, lest we forget, that England is in charge.
I am Scottish the Saltire is my flag.
Vote YES, in 2014. So we can finally get that blessed colonial flag off our castle.
I agree with jigsbro. The Union flag has been changed many times, but that doesn’t matter, what it represents is the UK today. It’s a bit like when people point out the Kilt is a fake and was only invented in the 18th century. So what? That still makes the tradition of wearing it older than over half the countries in the world.
I think the Saltire is a symbol of ALL the people of Scotland, including the ones who want Scotland amalgamted out of existence. Sad but true. I’d like to see more Rampant Lions in the campaign. This is the symbol of Scotish Sovreignty, and THAT’S what this debate is about and THAT’S something the Unionists have absolutely no right to.
I disagree that the Saltire is “our” flag and the UJ is “theirs”, but it is notable how reticent BT are about using the UJ. In fact, didn’t they expressly say they wouldn’t use it when they launched?
Despite all the Jubilympics stuff last year, they know how unpopular the UJ is.
I’m also not one for getting worked up about the flag thing. This vexillogical dissonance does symbolise to me though the essence of the Vote Hee Haw campaign, and one which they claim to own: the “being able to have the best of both worlds” shtick. I.e. being able to be Scottish when it suits us, plus the ability to be UK-ish when it suits us. So on one level, not a bad thing, in fact I’d go as far to say it is a (rare) positive message for them.
But it is a message that rapidly dissolves when you drill-down into the politics behind it. The 10-1 democratic deficit means that for all the major political and economic issues and decisions it is the UK/London who actually controls when are ‘able’ to be Scottish: it is not a free choice, not a switch we can turn on at will.
London/UK currently control all the socio-economic and political mechanisms which enable us to be Scottish when it suits us for things that really matter – while at the same time giving the illusion that we are free to choose when to be/feel Scottish, typically with regard to heavily broadcasted, highly visible and popular activities like football and sport in general.
The only way that we can in reality have the best of both worlds: the ability to be able to be Scottish when it really does matter, plus the ability to also be British, European, Nordic, or whatever when it suits us – is by Scotland becoming an independent state.
Holebender
I agree, of course the Saltire belongs to us all but likewise I find the coyness over the Union flag pretty damned funny. If it is so much “Better” use it.
Ahem, the union flag as it is properly known on land is only official in Northern Ireland. It is not official elsewhere in the UK of GB and NI but merely advisory. However at sea it is the official UK of GB and NI flag. At sea it is known as the Union Jack.
If it is acceptable to consider oneself Scottish and British it must also be acceptable to be British and Scottish, it is after all the order which is important. One says I want my country to have control while the other says I want my country to be controlled. It’s an odd state to be in wanting someone else to be in control, makes you wonder if there’s some secret word we could all shout that would stop it all dead…
it’s too late for the unionists to reclaim the saltire.
They ignored it for decades-their choice-so whenever anyone sees it displayed, most people will automatically think the people displaying it must be “Yes” supporters.
Perhaps even this chap with saltire and U KOK branding will have been seen in that way
Having just come back from Larkie I can state with some certainty that the UJ is popular in one place, at least every day of every week, Even the windaes of the charity shop are well plastered with said flag, and pictures of Lizzie too. It’s quite a place.
Connections with third tier footie venues may be unrelated. Aye right, or is that ready…..
There isn’t even a proper Scottish flag in the Butcher’s Apron. It’s the wrong shade of blue.
This is a wee bit pernickity for my liking.
Who gives a shit, ive flown jolly rogers before…. Does nae make me Somalian.
Nice to see the boys carrying the message on their little trip to the green and pleasant lands today
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
More of the same over at the HuffPo
I always thought that the Union Flag was a Monarchic Flag first created a hundred years BEFORE the Act of Union.
even Wikipedia agrees with me:-
No law has been passed making the Union Jack the national flag of the United Kingdom: it has become one through precedent. Its first recorded recognition as a national flag came in 1908, when it was stated in Parliament that “the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag” A more categorical statement was made by the Home Secretary, in 1933 when he stated that “the Union Jack is the National Flag.” But it is still officially a flag of the monarch, rather than the Union.
(Apologies for getting my info from Wiki, folks)
So it will be safe to asume that the Union Flag will still exist AFTER Independence.
I suspect, like my local Tesco, they’ve found the union flag just doesn’t sell very well in Scotland.
In the end the Union flag is offensive to / has very negative connotations for many people both in the UK and globally.
In contrast, the saltire is only offensive to a tiny minority in the area of professional tennis going by recent news.
I might bring up this fact again…
Nationality of the Scottish electorate 1999-2013 averages (from the SSAS):
Scottish 76%
British 16%
Other 8%
Interestingly, this is the result of a ‘forced’ nationality question (as the authors describe it because options are not open for e.g. ‘Scottish and British’). It’s a bit like what will be asked next September in that sense.
Often the Moreno Question is used to show how apparently lots of people are ‘Equally Scottish and British’. Ah, but are those same people ‘Equally British and Scottish’? The answer’s no because they are not actually ‘equally’.
When people are given the option of scoring how British they are and how Scottish they are on respective 1-7 scales, you find the ‘equally Scottish and British’ grouping disappears. 77% (2013) Score themselves either only Scottish (not British) with the remainder more Scottish than British. They may put 7 Scottish and 6 British, but 30% do not put themselves equally as both, they score Scottish higher consistently.
The Moreno question fails on wording as it puts Scottish before British in the question. Put these two the other way around and the answer would be quite different.
When it comes to the crunch, 76% vs 16% are your main numbers in terms of the primary nationality factor and explains the dearth of union jackery in Scotland. Also why only 18% would vote to join the union.
I thought when you said ‘borrowed property’ and ‘can you spot it’ – you meant the guy had nicked the mobility scooter from a supermarket.
In any case, its just Alistair Darling on his way to work. Nothing to see here.
Well, who’d a thunk it. You get a mention over at Better Together, Rev – sort of.
And the wheeled unionist made me think of this.
Tonight there will be a lot of Saltires flying in London. I suspect that many of them will be waved by people who intend to vote “NO”.
Whether we win this referendum or not, Scotland will still have the Saltire. There is no suggestion (yet!!) that if NO prevails, it will be banned. So any Scot must be allowed to fly it. I just wish that more would, because there is no doubt that it is associated with the YES camp.
Oh and…
Union flag = Tory flag.
Always has been, always will be.
link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk
link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk
link to thetimes.co.uk
And mentioning the folk over at Better Together, i see in an email that they are plugging the launch of the Glasgow group, and it’s gonna be big folks, not only Mr Darling, but the three party leaders and it’s open to everyone, pity that, as they don’t say where it’s being held, DUH!
Wonder why?
That Daily Mail article Stu has linked to is something else:
“the British experiment has been the most influential partnership in history, banishing old enmities and creating the most successful nation-state the world has ever seen.”
Ahemm….
creating the most successful nation-state the world has ever seen.
I must have missed the global competition for ‘Most successful nation state’ where the UK took top prize.
“Vronsky says:
14 August, 2013 at 2:24 pm
Well, who’d a thunk it. You get a mention over at Better Together, Rev – sort of. ”
Stu, you should have a look and maybe do a piece on this. The Better together page mentions Seperatism or Devolution several times. I’m pretty sure the actual referendum is Seperatism or nothing. (Status Quo) They seem to be pretending that they support devolution even though they specifically had it removed as an option.
False Flags and False promises.
“Better Together” has no “Scotland OK” banners.
Actually, that would make a brilliant YES SCOTLAND slogan. Can you imagine the effect on Blair McDougall?
SCOTLAND OK (VOTE YES)
I’m pretty sure the actual referendum is Seperatism or nothing. (Status Quo)
I’m almost certain that devolution is the status quo.
Balefire – far more detailed and interesting information can be found on the really rather good Flags of the World website:
link to fotw.net
It’s my flag
but you are all welcome to use it, as fior the UKOKS, what a neck they have even trying to use that flag, Nazzi, Mr Salmon, and when it comes to it, oh so proud they are to be in the Union but hide the Union flag, squeeks volumes that does.
Vote YES be happy
Do you think the guy in the chair is maybe anti-English? What with all his saltire-waving and that.
Just saying like…
@SS
“creating the most successful nation-state the world has ever seen.
I must have missed the global competition for ‘Most successful nation state’ where the UK took top prize.”
Or what strangely selected criteria they use to make that assessment.
It certainly is NOT:
GDP
Quality of life.
Health provision.
Wealth disparity.
Social mobility.
Pension provision.
Social housing.
Poverty levels.
Balanced and comprehensive broadcasting.
Class prejudice elimination.
Levels of corruption in government.
Curtailment of cartels, monoplies, usury, copyright law abuse and other reactionary measures by the financial sector and big business.
Civic and Political Freedoms eroding as we speak.
Exloitation of former and current colonies.
Popularity in the world.
Domestic regional tyranny (via a centralised perversion of democracy)
Educational elitism – fucks them up as much as it does those they go on to fuck up, BTW.
Entrenched notions of entitlement
Warm beer and cricket might work for the 1% of the population who live in villages in Middle Earth but not for those who have to deal with the real world on a scheme like Letham (Middle Perth).
There is so much wrong with this ‘successful nation’ it would be hard to say where to start, if it weren’t for next year’s referendum.
Anyway, he should stay away from busy streets. All you’d see from a short distance is the saltires. Folk’d think ‘oh, I see Yes Scotland are out and about’.
@jim mitchell says:
And mentioning the folk over at Better Together, i see in an email that they are plugging the launch of the Glasgow group, and it’s gonna be big folks, not only Mr Darling, but the three party leaders and it’s open to everyone, pity that, as they don’t say where it’s being held, DUH!
Wonder why?
Surely folks from on here wouldn’t even CONSIDER turning up??? (Would they???) ;- )
Flags schflags schmags blah……
This referendum isn’t about the flags, it’s about the heads and hearts of the people who wear & wave them. Mobile scooter man could tattoo a saltire across his face, it won’t change me profoundly disagreeing with him. We can say ‘best of both worlds’, he can wave a saltire – hey ho!
Next Story Rev!
O/T
Sorry but this is good.
link to telegraph.co.uk
surely ‘uk ok’, but independent Scotland fantastic?
creag an tuirc
I live in France and in the local biggish supermarket they have a discount, back to school aisle, with a Union Flag paper bin going at half price.
I thought of buying just for dumping my dirties in it before putting them in the washing machine.
As for the Glasgow Better Together launch…
Anyone know numbers from the Orange Order planning to attend?
@Robyn …
Ha! That’s one of my local markets, also a scene of the London riots of 2011. They don’t take pish from anyone from around there. Lots of passionate local people angry with Westminster knowing that they’re being sold out by all political colours and none more so than Labour.
Anyway, he should stay away from busy streets
He’s rarely anywhere busy. It’s mostly BT meetings.
Oh, the old guy is just hedging his bets!
@raineach
UK OK
IS BLISS
Maybe he’s a Yes supporrter laughing at BTs slogan, UK OK. Dictionary definition of ok – acceptable or tolerable but not exceptional.
Pretty uninspiring stuff.
James Kay
Yes there certainly are a few Saltires in London today, some pictures coming out also have references to YES as in Scotland says YES. What some may not realise or appreciate is that the event, regardless of wins, will be a great meeting place for Scots to exchange views and just perhaps some will learn a bit more
Dunno if it the same guy, but there is another mobility scooter, red with a roof. Usually trundling around with Labour posters on it
“The indy undecideds: Yes camp need to persuade 75%, poll finds”
Guess who wrote this for the Herald – no prizes!
And my goodness , the poll to which he refers is not a Panelbase one!
I will say that Milliband took being egged with far better grace than Farage took being heckled.
I wrote it, I posted it, and ten minutes later it struck me! (UKOK is bliss?)
IS = Independent Scotland
I don’t think my slogan will catch on….
Erchie :
Johann?
Here’s something to cheer you all up…
link to bbc.co.uk
Scottish fans in London
If one considers that the term “King of Great Britain” was coined at the coronation of King James VI of Scotland & 1st of England over 100 years before the act of Union. It was repeated in the preface of the King James Authorised Version of the Bible in 1611.
The first Union flag of “them” as you call it was in 1606 by that same Scottish King. Blame the Union heralded and rushed head long into by a Scotsman…
So thats how Alistair Darling gets about, I see EY Uk Exports predicts good growth in Scotland over the next few years.
EY Uk Exports formerly Ernst & Young, predicts Scottish exports will see a growth of 2% a year, higher than the UK predicted, John Swinney added Scotland will go on to outstrip UK growth.
On a more ridiculous note, taxpayers paid more than £7 million quid, last year subsidising the Westminsters Parliaments restaurants and bars ( source DR)
Just a wee message for the ‘it’s called the union flag on land’ pedants, who regularly pop up when there is discussion of the union jack. Up until about four years ago, everyone ,save for very few, across the UK called it the union jack. throughout the 30’s. 40’s. 50’s 60’s, 70’s and 80’s it was referred to as the union jack. Always. People knew of the technical distinction, but you will find literature almost always relates to it as the union jack.
People in the general public choosing to refer to it as the union flag is a very recent phenomena – even though ,as I say, it is technically more accurate.
So, the pedantry about ‘actually, it is only the union jack when at sea’, is pointless, as both terms are used interchangeably. It is a mere technicality, unless you are in the Navy. It’s a bit like the fact that most folks call a vacuum cleaner by the tradename ‘hoover’.
In other words, to quote Labour’s intellectual heavyweight, Iain Davidson, “who cares?”
Strangely the Welsh Dragon Flag isnt incorporated in the Union Flag, because Wales had already been united with England, when the first version of the Union Flag, was designed in 1606, maybe after independence, the Welsh flag will replace the Saltire.
Oh, I blame the entire sorry mess on Jamie the Saxt. Which is probably top of the list of reasona I’m a republican. But that doesn’t change where we are now, in the slightest.
Oh, I blame the entire sorry mess on Jamie the Saxt. Which is probably top of the list of reasons I’m a republican. But that doesn’t change where we are now, in the slightest.
I suspect as soon as he’s out of view of BT HQ he’ll whip off the UKOK signs to reveal Yes Scotland ones.
Yes black ops at work.
Perhaps someone needs to buy a supply of Union Flags and hand them out to Better Together supporters if they forget to bring/display their own one at events when they are out espousing how fabulous the UK is
O/T: Yes I think I’ll get punished for this, but hell, I’ve gotta mention this somewhere. Anyone else seen this:
link to scotsman.com
Yes, Aberdeen council really is going to make begging a fine-able offence. Because, so many of them have a choice. If this is the sort of country we live in now, I DO NOT want to live here. Makes me physically sick to think that this is really considered the best way of dealing with beggers. A bit like ‘food banks are only used by lazy people’.
Looks like the same guy here http://dinnatouch.tumblr.com/image/55636874205 He was talking to the BT guy, but it didn’t look like he was campaigning with them that day.
Aberdeen City Council are a joke. The worst in the land.
chalks – you’ve not lived in West Dumbartonshire then?
It had to happen
– link to facebook.com
and
link to facebook.com
On Flags: a long time ago when I put posts on the Scotsman website, there was a discussion on history and I legitimately used the word Nazis, but was asked to remove it before the comment would be allowed.
Grotesque irony when some months later the Scotsman on Sunday in an article change a photo of the Saltire so that the cross was a swastika!
Gardham’s at it again in the herald:
link to heraldscotland.com
They don’t want to talk about the poll that we crowdfunded! I’m so effing angry.
beachthistle says:
14 August, 2013 at 1:56 pm
“I’m also not one for getting worked up about the flag thing. This vexillogical dissonance”
“vexillogical dissonance” EH? i had one o them wi a sidecar and it went on fire on the A9 ;o)))))
Evil cybernat football thug from Bath eggs Milliband whilst rampaging through London as part of the Tartan Army.
There you go, Hootsmon editor.
chalks says:
14 August, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Aberdeen City Council are a joke. The worst in the land.
If that’s true then Perth & Kinross Council come a close second!
“vexillogical dissonance” eh? I’m not sure if I know it. Can you hum a few bars of it though and then I’ll just join in.
Are they perhaps a new invention – Unionist Saltires? They look closer to the dark pantone 280 of the union flag than the pantone 300 of the Scottish Saltire.
“vexillogical dissonance” That’s a hard one.Clues motorcycle and music? Ah a Pink Panther!
Motorcycle – 600cc single cylinder OHV sloper engine, manufactured by P&M.
Music – dedum dedum dodo dodo dodoroo dodo dedum
OT.
BBC News 24 talking about the game tonight, and discussing Rooney, with upcoming games in mind.
“It’s an important game for the ‘national’ side.”
The Union Flag was used after the accession of James VI on the English throne. However it wasn’t standardised till after the Treaty of Union.
Scotland had its own variant of the Union Flag in the 17th century prior to 1707, and it was still being used unofficially till the 19th Century.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Caroline Corfield says:
“makes you wonder if there’s some secret word we could all shout that would stop it all dead…”
A Skyrim mod is as close as you’d get to that, Caroline.
@jamesarriere
Not Johann. An elderly bloke who probably remembers Labour when it had principles and still thinks its the same party. Obviously hadn’t compared notes with Tom Harris
@velofello @MajorBloodnok @HenBroon
As I said I’m not one to get excited about flags, so thought I’d try to give a relatively superficial subject some faux gravitas (which is good with chips) with “vexillogical dissonance”:
vexillological – everything to do with the study of flags.
dissonance – everything to do with thought processes of those in the Vote Hee Haw Campaign; inconsistency between the beliefs one holds or between one’s actions and one’s disbeliefs.
beatchthistle
Double plus good!
Waiting for the “Say YES to the Union, Vote NO” campaign to start myself.
Just wondering if the poor
bugger had had someone stick the U-KOK sticker on his wheelchair when they “engaged ” him about his Saltires?
@Roddy MacDonald
Maybe we could fly the new Social Union flag
link to img809.imageshack.us
See that Herald article on interview with MORI…
That’s some weird maths?
Mark Diffley, research director of Ipsos MORI Scotland, said the contest was far from a foregone conclusion given that only 56% of Scots say they are certain to vote and already know which side they will support.
But he said the Yes camp faced a “considerable challenge” to win over enough don’t-knows to cancel out, or overtake, the pro-UK side’s commanding two-to-one lead among voters whose minds are made up.
The Yes campaign need to capture about seven out of 10 of the 44% of Scots who are undecided.
So lets see:
56% decided and planning to vote
44% undecided and may or may not vote
1:2 majority (nearly) among the 56%
So
0.33*56 = 18.5
Y = 18.5%? Which is way too low. Weird. Ok, let’s call it 20% definitely decided on Yes and planning to vote. That means only 36% planning the same for N, leaving the undecided and not sure if they’ll vote on 44% as stated.
That’s some really odd numbers based on what they’ve released before (last in May).
Also, ‘convincing 7/10’ of the undecided would give:
0.7 x 44 +20 = 51 Y to 36 N.
Which would be a majority of the electorate but would give you 60% Yes in the referendum (if all 87% turned out and voted that way).
Maybe they’ve done a new one and Rev’s 36% N is correct?
Or the dude from MORI and/or the Herald have really messed up.
I see Blair M is on the defensive and desperate that No don’t get complacent. I recall he seemed to know the result of the last MORI before it came out.
Hmm.
Anyone had MORI on the phone recently?
I’m no number cruncher SS, but even I thought those numbers seemed odd.
Just checked the tables on the last poll.
It had 65% definitely decided, not 56%.
If the 65% has dropped to 56% in a new poll, the N has taken the full force of the loss.
Previous to that it was 68% definitely decided.
Hmm. New poll on the way with lots of ‘definite No’ now reconsidering?
MORI’s of course the high no outlier being a landline only poll.
Says in the Scotsman version that it is collated from the last 5 polls since 2012.
In other words its really not worth the paper it is printed on – well that’s kinda stating the obvious!
Why do none of the Scottish football team other than Kenny Miller not sing our national anthem.
Fair play to the English players who sang the English anthem God Save the Queen.
My brother says that during the recent World inter continental tournament in Brazil all the Brazilian players sang their national anthem with great gusto and if its good enough for Brazil…
@scottish skier
“MORI’s of course the high no outlier..”
Indeed. Something conveniently ignored by all the MSM.
By my reckoning they are an outlier, etc. in more ways than one…
Anyone think that the media is trying to goad us independence lovers into doing something silly?
And if no-one bites would they dare to provide the “silly” under black ops?
Jings! I have just come to realise how much I mistrust the MSM /Lib/Lab/Con and No Scotland .
Linda’s Back
God Save The Queen is (ostensibly, and adopted) the British national anthem, not the English one – don’t they have something else they can use? Also, why are the England fans singing “Rule Britannia”? Are there no properly English songs?
(I’m not asking you, I’m just wondering!)
Can’t find the ‘definitely decided/may change mind’ data on the indy Q beyond the last two polls.
If the average of 5 is 56%, then the average of the missing 3 is 49% (definitely decided and definitely voting either Y or N) based on the recent two being 65 and 68.
Well, if it’s true, it’s not good at all for No.
Jerusalem is a fine tune; quite inspiring music. Can see why it’s advocated.
Land of Hope and Glory would be good if they reverted to the original words without the “wider still and wider” part. I mean, Elgar.
God save the Queen is just plain shite.
And that’s before taking into account I’m a lapsed Jedi of republican leanings (suppose that’s normal for Jedi).
“So why are they so ashamed to be seen on the streets with their own symbol that they’re using the other side’s?”
The point that is being made so far as I can see is that one can be proud to be Scottish and fly the Saltier. But still wish to remain to be part of the UK. And that’s fine by me. They welcome to their opinion. The question they need to answer is why is it better to be part of the UK. To which I’ve still to hear a positive answer. Thus far it seems to boil down to being big enough to bully smaller underdeveloped nations.
Considering we’ve got Scots wha hae, I truly don’t understand why everyone is so keen on looking at other things, and that bloody dirge that sounds as if they’re all going to break into the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves.
I mean, tune so ancient it was apparently sung by the Scottish troops fighting in the army of Joan of Arc, and words by, who else, Robbie Burns. It’s one of the all-time greats, right up there with that cracker of a Welsh rabble-rouser, and we’re ditching it?
Freedom call ye.
Or the laughing gnome.
The article misunderstands what unionism is. Unionist are proud and committed Scots, they just believe that the interests of scotland are best served in the UK. If you support yes, this may seem incomprehensible, but that does not make it any less true.
Freedom call ye.
You mean, “Freedom come all ye”? Written in 1960? Referring to events and people that are already in the past and who knows whether the names will live like that of Brice and Wallace? Tune, “The Bloody Fields of Flanders”?
Not for preference I have to say, not as an anthem, even though I like the tune a lot.
“Flower of Scotland” is more recent than 1960 and is a cracking national anthem!
If you support yes, this may seem incomprehensible
No not at all. My best mate of 25 years proudly does his triathlon with a union jack shirt. Having parents from both sides of the border he has always felt Scottish and British.
He is really angry and upset with Better Together / the pro-union camp, even though he’s always been for the union (but voted SNP in 2011 as he thinks they’re best for Scotland) and they could well lose his ‘No’ vote if they keep up with their current negative strategy.
I suspect he’s not alone.
Let’s not jump the gun lads and give those pesky unionists something to complain about. My missus works in Glasgow and has seen this chap on more than a few occasions, usually blaring music as he wheels about.
He is known for using his chair as a mobile advertising hoarding and I feel someone at U-KOK has latched onto this. The Saltires may be his way of making some cash but disagreeing with the sentiment of what he is advertising.
As for the Saltire being a nationalistic symbol, I see it as simply being our national flag and I’m bloody proud of it as such. The Lion Rampant would be much better as a nationalist symbol given that the English tried to ban it (many moons ago).
“Flower of Scotland” is a ghastly dirge that sounds as if all concerned are about to break into the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves.
When did the English try to ban the Lion Rampant? It’s the Royal Standard of Scotland, and as such it’s use has always been controlled and limited (mainly by a 1672 Act of the Scottish Parliament).
My father got corporate hospitality for Scotland V England rugby match with best seats the first time Flower of Scotland was played and says the unionist stuffed shirts were aplopletic.
National anthems are supposed to be ghastly dirges – there aren’t many that are anything else (Brazil is one notable exception that springs to mind).
Freedom Come All Ye ny Uamish Henderson was actually inspired by apartheid in South Africa.
It would make a great national anthem though, with very few tweaks.
A couple of them for very trivial reasons. The word ‘gay’ has a more modern usual meaning and is applied as an adverb to ‘baddies’ in the song. The words ‘black boy’, while completely innocuous at the time composed, has too, in the interim, acquired I think a different and unwelcome nuance. Courtesy perhaps of ‘Deep South’ American TV and Movies? Anyway, I notice that many performers have self-edited the word ‘boy to ‘lad’.
Regards content, I think only perhaps the verse relating to John MacLean might need altering as he is a specific person with a specific political view.
Bruce and Wallace have sufficient legendary clothing, courtesy of the intervening centuries, that they are more simply symbols of freedom than anything else.
@ Morag – re Scots wha hae, couldn’t agree more
I mean, tune so ancient it was apparently sung by the Scottish troops fighting in the army of Joan of Arc, and words by, who else, Robbie Burns. It’s one of the all-time greats, right up there with that cracker of a Welsh rabble-rouser,
There are two other crackers which were written in the 1790s like Scots wha hae and which became national anthems – La Marseillaise and Dabrowski’s Mazurka Poland has not perished yet as long as we live.
Out of interest, what’s that on the welsh strip just below the badge?
link to news.bbcimg.co.uk
It was always my understanding that the Dress Act of 1746 which banned tartan, also extended to the Lion Rampant and any other items that may have been symbolicly Scottish. I wouldn’t doubt Blue Dave trying to do the same again.
@Morag,
Agreed. Best suited to funeral marches and more in common with ‘Flowers o’ the Forest’.
I pray that after our ‘YES’ vote next year, we’ll be looking for something more inspiring and uplifting.
Nah, the Dress Act was a part of the Act of Proscription and was one of the steps taken to try to destroy Highland culture. Along with the Heritable Jurisdiction Act, it was pretty successful
A man’s a man… is of course a classic.
Felt it very fitting for our semi-independence day back in 1999.
A Man’s a Man is great, but it ain’t a national anthem.
Our choir conductor has made us learn that one for use abroad, specifically to make other countries’ choirs who have prepared very patriotic songs sit up and notice. Part of me thinks, great idea, and the other part of me thinks, you Old Labour unionist fifth-columnist….
Scots wha hae WAS our national anthem. Part of the reason for its being shoved off the pedestal is unionists wanting to get rid of a nationalist shibboleth. The SNP always sings it at conference, maybe that was a mistake.
Personally, I think Alex Salmond needs to be clear what Scotland’s national anthem will be under independence.
I can’t make a proper decision how to vote without this information.
Absolutely, scottish_skier. Was that included on Goany No’s list of 500 important questions?
No, No, No!
Enough of this historical (hysterical?) navel-gazing and greetin’ in wir beer!
The new Scotland will need a new anthem, not some regurgitated stuff from the past.
Lianachan says:
14 August, 2013 at 9:06 pm
National anthems are supposed to be ghastly dirges – there aren’t many that are anything else (Brazil is one notable exception that springs to mind).
—-
But they’re meant to be catchy, memorable and popular. Deutschlandlied as a prime example… (Deutschland uber alles, a real favourite of the English!
What’s wrong with Flower Of Scotland? It meets the catchy, memorable and popular criteria. The Scotland fans are spontaneously singing it right now. Not Scots Wha Hae, or Scotland The Brave.
@Morag.
You are quite right Morag. Tuttie Taitie, Bruce’s Address to his troops before the Battle of Bannockburn, or ‘Scots wha hae’, as it is popularly known, was indeed played by the Scottish soldiers fighting for Joan of Arc. It was played as a march and it is recorded in the French Academy of Music collection as (forgive me if my French is bad) Marche de le Garde Ecossais. 17th. cent.
It is a marvellous tune if played at march speed instead of the deadly dull tempo at which we normally hear it.
It kicks Flower of Scotland into the rough in every respect. It is ancient. It can be marched to, and it can be played on the pipes which ‘Flower of Scotland’ cannot because of that flat note that trips the whole thing up at the words ‘tae think again’.
There is every reason to believe that it was played by the Scots troops marching to Bannockburn. My research has led me to believe that the words Tuttie Taitie are part of a poem by Roman poet Ennius (239-169BC) that refers to the overthrow of tyrant Titus Tatius. The full poem with correct spelling is this: O Tite Tute Tati Tibi Tanta Tyranne Tulisti. (Oh Tyrant Titus Tatius, what a lot you brought upon yourself).
Which, considering the fate of Edward II at Bannockburn would be considered quite apposite and suitable.
The poetry of Ennius was well known in the 13th. and 14th centuries which places it well into the time of the Wars of Independence.
I have been pushing the case for Scots Wha Hae to be accepted as our national anthem for quite a long time. It concerns me somewhat that my countrymen can be so obtuse as to ignore this important part of our culture.
But perhaps it’s all part of the long game being played by the British.
The new Scotland will need a new anthem
Amy MacDonald’s ‘Pride’?
<innocentwhistlesmiley>
If only I was 10 years younger… Sighs.
(Note Mrs SS has ok’d this post ;-~)).
@ Morag x 2
I totally agree that “Flower of Scotland” is not particularly inspiring. It is, however (imho) in no way comparable to Verdi’s sublime “Chorus of the Hebrew slaves”.
Although the popular myth that it was intimately connected with 19th century nationalism at the time of Italian reunification has now been disputed, it is undoubtedly a stirring piece which still evokes fierce pride amongst Italians today. It also has the power to make the hair stand up on the back of many a non-Italian neck. Chacun a son gout, I suppose!
O/T (kind of)
Petition against the genuinely shocking decision to ban subject of independence from the Edinburgh Festival next year…
link to change.org
For anyone who thinks FoS is a dirge you need to listen again to the original recording
it is only how it is sing that sometimes make it sound rearguard can’t believe this still keeps coming up
It (FoS) starts with a dreadful downward figure, no matter how fast you sing it. And for goodness sake, just listen to “va pensiero”, the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves. “By the waters of Babylon I sat and wept…” The lament of a people exiled from their homeland. Every time I hear the first four notes of either, my heart sinks. And in only one case is it supposed to. I think.
But perhaps it’s all part of the long game being played by the British.
Hell, yes. If we ditch that incredible, iconic tune and Burns’s words, we’ll have done exactly what they want. We’ve been made to think it’s a nasty, xenophobic song, but it has exactly the same theme as FoS. (Arguably, FoS is superseded the minute we get the Yes vote anyway.) And if you want nasty, think about La Marseillaise. SWH is a treasure, and we should understand that.
Could someone photoshop ‘The End is Nigh’ on that UKOK banner.
@ scottish_skier
‘Personally, I think Alex Salmond needs to be clear what Scotland’s national anthem will be under independence.’
Question 389 isn’t it?
I’m not sure why Auld Lang Syne is never considered; known world wide and to the diaspora, speaks to the past and to the future, everyone know some of the words.
Scots whae hae sounds good to me but I also like the tune of Highland Cathedral it’s difficult having all these great Scottish tunes – this one will definitely need another referendum.
A national anthem must have a generally rising theme. All the great ones have it. Think about Hen wlad fy nhadau. Now one thing that is really important if you are starting a group off singing Scots wha hae as cantor, is to start real low. Otherwise you are going to lose all but the natural high sopranos and tenors before you’re done. It just goes up and up, inexorably.
And your heart goes with it.
Highland Cathedral is OK, but the words are pretty twee. I don’t think it makes the cut. And it has NO history.
I’m not sure why Auld Lang Syne is never considered; known world wide and to the diaspora, speaks to the past and to the future, everyone know some of the words.
You’re ‘avin’ a larf, right?
My preferred option is Calum’s Road with no cheesy “we arra peepel” lyrics nor any reference to any other country, but canntaireachd vocables only. We could have the world’s cheeriest national anthem that won’t upset anyone and, if they so fancy, Olympic and Commonwealth teams could palais glide to it round the track.
I’ve always thought the Russian national anthem a classic.
@ Morag
‘You’re ‘avin’ a larf, right? ‘
Not at all. I certainly prefer it as a poem/song to Flower of Scotland.
Oh, sure. But the bit about everybody knowing at least some of the words? 99% of the world “knows” them wrong and always sings them wrong. It could start a war. And who wants to use a song that’s associated with a drunken end to a party as a national anthem?
Best anthems by far – France and Russia but an independent Scotland could create better.
@ Morag
‘And who wants to use a song that’s associated with a drunken end to a party as a national anthem?’
I’m glass half-empty as you can get, but I always thought Hogmanay was partly about looking forward (unrealistic, alcohol-fuelled optimism notwithstanding).
I’m sorry, why are we wasting time discussing our future anthem? THE MATTER HAS BEEN DECIDED.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
At Bannockburn the English lay,–The Scots they were na far away,But waited for the break o’ dayThat glinted in the east. But soon the sun broke through the heathAnd lighted up that field of death,When Bruce, wi’ saul-inspiring breath,His heralds thus addressed:– “Scots, wha hae wi’ Wallace bled–Scots, wham Bruce has aften led–Welcome to your gory bed.Or to victorie! “Now’s the day, and now’s the hour;See the front o’ battle lower;See approach proud Edward’s power–Chains and slaverie! “Wha will be a ("Tractor" - Ed) knave?Wha can fill a coward’s grave?Wha sae base as be a slave?Let him turn and flee! “Wha for Scotland’s king and lawFreedom’s sword will strongly draw,Freeman stand or freeman fa’–Let him follow me! “By Oppression’s woes and pains!By your sons in servile chains!We will drain our dearest veins,But they shall be free! “Lay the proud usurpers low!Tyrants fall in every foe!Liberty’s in every blow!Let us do or die!”
O/T I have a confession I visited the Scotsman online and came across this gem
A PROMINENT Conservative Party donor and businessman has revealed he will be voting Yes in next year’s referendum on Scottish Independence.
Laurie Clark, the owner and managing director of Paisley-based firm Anglo-Scottish Concrete told Prime Minister David Cameron at a meeting at Loch Lomond today that he would be backing a Yes vote next September to kickstart the ‘beginning of a fairer and mutually beneficial partnership between Scotland and the rest of the UK’.
Mr Clark, who has recently been appointed to the Advisory Board of the pro-independence business network Business for Scotland, added: “Independence represents the best of both worlds whereby we maintain many of the unions between Scotland and the rest of the UK, including the union of the crowns and the trade unions but lose the out of date political union.
“The referendum is not a choice between Scottish and British identity. Instead, for me, it is about how best we realise the potential of Scotland, create wealth and jobs, expand the private sector and reform the public sector in the interests of the nation as a whole.”
I think it’s bizarre that we’re the homeland of one of the most revered poets in the world, and yet we don’t use one of his songs as the national anthem. Especially when there’s something like A Man’s A Man which gives voice to the egalitarian values we claim to be Scottish.
American kids are brought up singing about how great America is, and they all grow up believing it’s the best country in the world. That “land of the free” stuff is driven into them. Imagine if every Scottish child grew up singing about the absurdity of “yon burkie ca’ed a lord” and the likes. It’d be brilliant.
Hi Rev. I assume you’ve seen this….
link to thecourier.co.uk
“Instead, for me, it is about how best we realise the potential of Scotland, create wealth and jobs, expand the private sector and reform the public sector in the interests of the nation as a whole.”
), but this is my view at least.
Meh, pretty much what the Tories are all about, have always been about and are very much doing this time round, with some empirical success (and more to follow). I hardly think those sort of sentiments will find much resonance with the SNP.
Seem to recall that a fairly recent poll of the top 250 businesses in Scotland came out very heavily in favour of the Union (about 75/25 I think)? For me, although “negative”, this is one of the cornerstones of the Unionist argument. Businessmen – and most especially (often self made) business owners are not vapid politicians who’ve never had a real job; they know a thing or two. For them to come out so strongly against Indy has to count for something, right? They must have their reasons, and people can’t just brush them aside/under the carpet.
Business matters to Scotland, just as it does everywhere else – these are the wealth-creators and the employers; the things that power the *real* economy upon which everything else stems from.
Sure I’ll get metaphorically egged for this ( ahem
Nothing to see here
Fook me I need to go to bed.
@cynicalhighlander 10.08pm
Cant do photoshop but maybe someone could use this
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=the+end+is+extremely+fucking+nigh&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=BvsLUuaDDMiK0AWoqoCIBA&biw=1024&bih=653&sei=KvsLUo_aFKWx0AXbrYCYCA#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=OPiujbMHf_xbjM%3A%3Bu-oeNiNCgPEHbM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fs3.roosterteeth.com%252Fimages%252FjohnnyricoMC489f1a252c4b9.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Froosterteeth.com%252Fmembers%252Fimages%252Fimage.php%253Fid%253D2337933%3B256%3B256
I’m glass half-empty as you can get, but I always thought Hogmanay was partly about looking forward (unrealistic, alcohol-fuelled optimism notwithstanding).
On Hogmanay, but the rest of the time it’s just the drunken-end-of-the-party song.
I find Flower of Scotland such a depressing experience – how did it mange to become so popular? The tune is a dirge, the lyrics are melancholy and overall, negative. Scots Wha Hae is at least rousing and optimistic.
Best of all would be something that doesn’t refer to the English but is just about us. Scotland the Brave, perhaps? If we can abide dear old Cliff Hanley’s tartan and shortbread lyrics, that is…
Donald, Faur’s Yer Troosers?
Seem to recall that a fairly recent poll of the top 250 businesses in Scotland came out very heavily in favour of the Union
But then ‘businesses’ are not getting a vote. That’s good for obvious reasons.
Incidentally, do other countries have businesses? Surely they’re not confined to the UK?
A quick check and no, other countries do have businesses. In fact the UK is quite far down the list in terms of GDP per capita. Looks like a union with e.g. wee Denmark, Norway, Sweden or Finland would be better bets if we’re going to continue with the whole ‘must be in a union but not sure why’ thing. Germany would top the list for me but we’d be too small a voice by population.
Note in the industry I work for, Scotland is the ‘capital’ for Europe. Hence the Co colleagues and I set up will be staying right at the heart of it. Co staff fully behind independence of course, as is pretty much the norm in the industry where the action is.
We won’t know what it feels like to be ‘independent’ until we win this referendum – then we can trust our musicians and writers to get a hold of it and make something new.
@Morag
‘On Hogmanay, but the rest of the time it’s just the drunken-end-of-the-party song.’
I must be more of a fluffy bunny than I thought; the last couple of non-Hogmanay occasions I did the full arm linking thing were weddings (ostensibly positive & forward looking :)).
I accept the memory of the Queen & Phil disdainfully holding hands with Tony & Cherie at the Millenium Dome thingy is a terrible burden to labour under.
@ Captain Caveman
Businessmen – and most especially (often self made) business owners are not vapid politicians who’ve never had a real job; they know a thing or two.
This is, in general, true. But businessmen (sic) were a group that the ‘poll’ I think you were referring to (a business reputation study by MORI in December with only 250 respondents ) never really touched upon/engaged with properly. As I recall MORI, despite their spin, mainly ended up asking second-level functionaries in large companies, a good number of them based outside Scotland – not the actual bosses and certainly not the actual entrepreneurs, and not Scottish SMEs. The figure when SMEs were asked by another researcher in a more recent poll was 50+% Yes.
The MSM (and at least one pollster) are playing fast and loose with IndyRef polls and their results, as we have seen over the past week. I have a small business start-up and my peers in the Scottish start-up sector are all confident and optimistic about the future – so all natural Yes’s – and know how the world outside actually works, so cant be bullshitted to with scare-stories.
The Scottish business sector, despite Tories assuming it is their natural constituency, is not going to be the default Nos the Tories and media commentators think they are going to be – far from it.
OT
Can anyone confirm this is a genuine photo of Trafalgar Square this evening after the fountain got the bubble bath treatment?
link to fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net
Nevermind aboot the Scotland result.
Whit aboot fat Scots?
BBC Scotland have an agenda, and they want you to know aboot it! You are fat, useless Scots. What are you gonna do aboot it? What can you do aboot it. Hahaha!
Flower of Scotland and Scot’s Wha hae both refer to the same battle so either both or neither are anti-english, insular and backward looking.
Some dirge!
Stick your cringe where it belongs.
Flower of Scotland fails the test for purely musical reasons – it cannot be played on the pipes because of pipe tuning. It gars me grue EVERY time it’s played because the pipes can’t play the modal 3rd last note (on the word THINK) and instead can only play it a semitone higher. It’s like listening to your national anthem be played by Les Dawson!!! And it’s getting worse because people start singing it like that.
We need a new anthem with more forward-looking lyrics which can be played on the pipes.
Fair enough. (Sorry about the ‘businessmen’ gaffe as well, not being sexist – just old
).
Seems to me the default response (on both sides) seems to be just to rubbish the others’ polls, though. :shrug:
creating the most successful nation-state the world has ever seen.
I suppose if you consider the British Empire being the largest empire in the history of the world, that could be construed as a success of the UK nation-state?
Strangely the Welsh Dragon Flag isnt incorporated in the Union Flag, because Wales had already been united with England
Well, let’s not mince words: the Welsh Dragon isn’t there because Wales had been conquered by England. Why acknowledge the flag of Wales when it was considered a mere province?
Considering we’ve got Scots wha hae, I truly don’t understand why everyone is so keen on looking at other things, and that bloody dirge that sounds as if they’re all going to break into the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves.
I mean, tune so ancient it was apparently sung by the Scottish troops fighting in the army of Joan of Arc, and words by, who else, Robbie Burns. It’s one of the all-time greats, right up there with that cracker of a Welsh rabble-rouser, and we’re ditching it?
I’m with you, Morag: until such time as Lord Rockingham’s opus is acknowledged, I’m a firm proponent of Scots wha hae.
Enough of this historical (hysterical?) navel-gazing and greetin’ in wir beer!
The new Scotland will need a new anthem, not some regurgitated stuff from the past.
Sorry Ronnie, I have no truck with that: how are we supposed to have a future if we ignore our past? Scotland’s one of the oldest nations on earth, our culture is rich and varied: it’s an affront to our national character to treat it as “some regurgitated stuff from the past.”
I find Flower of Scotland such a depressing experience – how did it mange to become so popular?
My main problem is that the lyrics of the final verse are, I think, entirely unsuitable for an independent country of any sort:
Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward’s army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again
Honestly, I found this just as insulting as the famous “rebellious Scots to crush” verse in God Save the King/Queen: the days of Bruce, where the Scots were an independent people, are “passed now, and in the past they must remain.” Oh, sure, you can placate us with the idea the can still rise now and be the nation again, some point in the undetermined future, maybe, perhaps, possibly, if you squint? Nae thanks.
But in any case, any independent country’s national anthem shouldn’t talk about their independence as something that must remain in the past.
No one mentioned Ted Christopher’s ‘Scottish Dawn’ as the new anthem?
The Scottish business sector, despite Tories assuming it is their natural constituency, is not going to be the default Nos the Tories and media commentators think they are going to be – far from it.
Yep, as a joint founder of an SME I can confirm Tory has zero votes in the office. Lack of vision and focus on dependency just doesn’t cut the mustard. I prefer the idea of standing on your own two feet.
Voting Tory would apparently benefit me personally. But it wouldn’t benefit the company, it’s team or Scotland. In fact right now they’ve landed us with increasing layers of bureaucracy due mainly to their dislike of ‘foreigners’. The concept that oil & gas / Energy is a global industry seems lost on them.
@Captain Cavemen
“Seems to me the default response (on both sides) seems to be just to rubbish the others’ polls, though. :shrug:”
I just think that if any of us are going to use/quote polls to back up an argument/point we should know some details about the poll beyond the pollster’s own and the media spin of it. It is an easy job to do to download and read the questions, methodology, tables etc. of a poll – and then we can all have better informed discussions/dialogue – which is what I thought you are in favour of?
“Lack of vision and focus on dependency just doesn’t cut the mustard.”
Indeed.
“I prefer the idea of standing on your own two feet.”
Again, I find myself heartily in agreement. (I’m a Tory, by the way.
I’m actually starting to think that because the Conservative Party in Scotland is *such* a ‘toxic brand’, to use the dreadful common parlance-cum-marketing-speek, many Scots don’t actually realise they actually agree with many of their policies? You can’t get any MORE Tory than “standing on your own two feet” and an aversion to dependency culture.
@beachthistle
Oh come on, it was only a casual, glib reference, qualified with “I seem to recall that…” at that.
Crivens, if I have to double and triple check the absolute veracity of a even vaguely mentioned reference sources before even daring to mention stuff, I’d never post anything. I was talking about a vague recollection (which was broadly correct), that’s all. Doesn’t mean I’m suddenly not in favour of quality debate or whatever! Lighten up.
@Taranaich
I don’t deny for one second that Scotland has an illustrious history, but it’s this girning about the past that has always held us back from moving forward.
There will be plenty of opportunities to display and celebrate what has gone before, but our anthem should be one which heralds the future aspirations of our reborn Scotland.
If ‘Sunshine on Leith’ can be sung (very well) by fans, imagine this getting the treatment from the Tartan Army – don’t snigger when you see what it is! Think about it – would work a treat:
You can’t get any MORE Tory than “standing on your own two feet”
Oh, I think you can. Try: “Standing on your own two feet, even if you don’t have any”.
Very good mate, you win.
I’m off to bed before I get myself into more trouble.
Words by our national poet, works on the pipes and an ancient tune played by Joan of Arc’s army as she marched into Orleans in 1429. Also, played properly, isn’t a dirge at all: “La Marche des soldats de Robert Bruce” link to youtube.com and (live) link to youtube.com. Brilliant.
Captain Caveman
You do seem to have a tendency to post much later in threads than most choose to do. I believe this is the easiest way to recognition to those you hope to pick up on. Wrong.
I can only encourage those who may have browsed over your posts to focus on your British Nationalist propaganda and to think over and about your sentiment. The small print, it`s always the small print.
@ clochoderic
http://instagram.com/p/c_tSxzuKVx/#
Looks like soapy foam there.
Actually, I’d say the most Tory of Tory things is *claiming* to stand on your own two feet, when in reality you’re just as dependent on the state as anyone else (bank bailouts, privatised rail company subsidies, that sort of thing).
That and the old “I got where I am today through no help from anyone else (as long as you don’t count the expensive education I was given, or daddy’s network of chums, or having the luxury of always knowing I had daddy’s money to fall back on every time I tried to be an “entrepreneur” and failed miserably…).”
@yesitis
Eh? I’m not hoping to “pick up” on anyone! Sorry but that’s just ridiculous mate, here of all places? I can confidently state that not one single person will be 1% swayed by anything I’ve got to say; if you honestly think I’ve got any sort of ‘agenda’ other than to chew the fat, enjoy the conversation here and to test my own arguments on occasion – for my intellectual workout purposes for want of a better turn of phrase – then you’re very, very wrong.
No idea what you mean by “small print” either (or “British Nationalist propaganda” either in relation to my own, earnestly held views, however half-arsed they might be, by my own oft repeated, ready admission, for that matter). As for posting late, that’s my job – I’m often working nights writing up reports and stuff, this is a pleasant diversion?
Captain Caveman – The problem with the Tories is that their idea of “standing on your own two feet” is an excuse for being utter bastards to the poor, the elderly, the disabled, and the unemployed. They don’t like state intervention in any shape form or fashion & if people fall by the wayside, then that’s their fault, not the Tories. This is the party of “back to basics”, a policy that tried to blame a decline in standards on single parents, regardless of how that situation came about. Its the party of “care in the community”, a policy that saw the closure mental health institutes and cast the most vulnerable members of society into communities that could not look after them. Now in 2013, this party sold the UK national bloodbank service to venture capitalists, who are now allowed to profit from blood donated freely from the British public. They think the best way to solve a critical shortage in housing is to implement a bedroom tax to force people to move to smaller houses, except that there aren’t any and then piss 9 billion up a wall trying to inflate a housing bubble. Lest we forget its the party of the poll tax, the opportunity voucher and Ruth Davidson, who went to an English conservative conference to slag of 88% of her countrymen. Its hard to have any sympathy for this party.
I think Scots agree with the idea of standing on your own feet, but could never turn away from those that can’t. There lies the difference between the majority of Scots and the Tory party. They could never bring themselves to vote for a party that relishes the opportunity to be seen as serving the interests of the self serving at the expense of everyone else.
In the end, all the Tories have to offer Scotland policy wise, is a bag of hammers. And to a hammer all problems look like nails. The Tories have no finesse or skill when it comes to Scotland. In my opinion, the Scottish Unionists biggest mistake was allowing a merger with their party and the Tories.
You can’t get any MORE Tory than “standing on your own two feet” and an aversion to dependency culture.
Yep. I’ve no aversion to hard work. Paying your own way and stuff. But I do believe that we are all in it together. Look out the window to confirm.
If the Tories lost the ‘I’m awright jack’ / me me me thing (and anti-foreigner guff) I might give them more consideration. I like tradition too (conservative trait).
Balance is needed between the right and the left. One vote for e.g. the SSP (listening with interest IBH) and one vote for a moderate ‘right’ business party would be something I’d happily do. Main thing is to keep balance.
Better Together. So proud ofThe Union, that they dont even use the Union flag on their logo. Now that must tell you something.
Scottish_Skier – “Main thing is to keep balance.” Never a truer word said. No enterprise, no socialism.
@Doug Daniel
Bank bailouts were 100% Labour I’m afraid mate (both in the making, through a useless, inept regulatory regime entirely of their own design and implementation, and also in the actually divvying out billions upon billions whilst in government during what is now known to be a Depression, not recession).
As for rail company subsidies, well, it’s hardly as though BR was cash-neutral, was it? Heh, far from it; I well remember one of my first ever visits to a rail repair foundry/works in the early 80s – every single (day shift) worker openly sleeping on the job. We were told to “say nothing” by the *manager* who was taking us round. Not to mention the “good old days” of creaking, ancient, graffiti-laden, ripped seats, piss-stained rolling stock, laughable punctuality, morose staff, inedible food and decrepit stations. At least now the trains round here at least are new, fast, on time, the food good, staff friendly and efficient – even if expensive. I know which I prefer though. Makes me laugh; people talk about these long-defunct, hulking, cash-leaking, strike-ridden, State owned entities like BR and CEGB as if they were *good*, but I’m long enough in the tooth to remember the actual reality!
As for the old “everyone who owns a business is some rich kid who had it all, got a free degree, has a rich daddy” caricature etc., you can’t be serious. Ironically, that was much more true in the ‘socialist golden age’ that was the 70s than ever it is now. The Conservatives changed all that; ‘self-employed’ went from dirty word to aspiration in one single parliamentary term.
@CC: As for rail
Norwegian State Railways.
Wow.
Where there’s a will…
Plenty of people on twitter tonight after the Scotland game proclaiming themselves to be fiercely patriotic but still against independence. Give me strength the majority couldn’t even argue a single point and are so clueless to the point i’m opened mouth, ignorant and completely unaware.
It only takes 5 mins to at least turn someone from definite NO to a yes or maybe or look into it more. Unfortunately not enough i fear.
@Captain Caveman – I think the difference is that is that in Scotland we don’t have the ‘Screw everybody’ mentality. Enterprise and social justice are not a contradiction of terms in this country. The problem is, our resources are being screwed, hence our people are being screwed. Put Scots in charge of Scottish resources and stand in awe, as Scotland champions the concept of social justice.
@macdoc – ‘Oh ye of little faith’, we are winning. Yessers in Trafalgar Square? Not on the radar 30 years ago. This country is on the move to independence, of that there is no doubt!
macdoc – yes, you’ve got it nailed right there for the 90 minute patriots.
They have ‘Scotland Forever’ tattoos, go into foreign lands in the full regalia, spend fortunes following their national team as ‘paid-up’ SFA travel clubbers and then come away with this union crap!
Is this the cringe personified, or whit!
@Captain Caveman
Standing on your own two feet is a view shared by good socialists
“From each according to their ability” is not just about contributing to the shared good, but also about being self-reliant
Where we part ways is in the excellent “To each according to their need” as opposed to the Tory and New Labour “crawl into a corner and starve”
Pastiche, 2008
TONY TALKS TAE THE TROOPS
Scots wha hae wi Wallace bled,
Ill-equipped an poorly fed,
Welcome tae yer gory bed
An hollow victory!
Noo’s the day an noo’s the hour
Tae die fur Georgie Porgie’s powr.
Even though the lie’s turned sour,
Rise an follow me!
The people’s voice will hold no sway,
Might will triumph on this day.
I may be mad but, as I say,
I, honestly, believe
That evil Saddam’s bound to stay,
tyranny won’t go away,
an that’s the awful price we’ll pay
unless yer faimlies grieve.
Yer claes ur crap, yer guns might jam,
the kitchen’s runnin’ oot o Spam,
yer General’s another bam
that thinks yer ‘Good to Go’.
He says yer plight is jist tough luck.
Lik me, he couldnae gie a fuck
When yer up tae yer ears in blood an muck
We’re naewhere near the foe.
Ah’ll no be rushin’ tae the front
Or joinin’ the Bin Laden hunt.
It’ll no be me that bears the brunt
O this war oan terror.
Ah’ll tak a leaf fae Georgie’s book
An fin masel a cosy nook.
Why should mah flesh burst an cook
Fur an honest error?
Lik barefit weans, lang years ago,
Yer beggin’ food fae GI Joe
but ye’ll staun up strong an gladly go
Wherever cowards send ye.
Ye’ll bite the bullet, cos ye must,
An fight wance mer fur foreign dust.
Through mothers’ sons ye’ll cut an thrust
An may the right defend ye.
Meantime, lads, ye can rest assured,
the nation’s gratitude’s secured
An aw the pain that ye’ve endured
Hiz made ye heroes.
But lik veterans o aw oor fights,
don’t think that gies ye special rights.
Ye’ll never see the promised heights.
In fact, yer on tae zeroes
If ye return fae foreign shore,
Tae reach yer homeland, safe, once more,
Ye’ll join the dole queue, like before,
Fur joabs ye widnae spit oan.
Ye’ll open doors an’ tip yer hats
Subservient tae the same fat cats
Who battles wage wi lies an stats
fur seats ye widnae shit oan.
“I think the difference is that is that in Scotland we don’t have the ‘Screw everybody’ mentality.”
). So I think I’ll just leave you to ponder your sentiments; repent at leisure?
Think about that statement for a moment. You’re saying – or at least strongly implying – that the English people, as an entire collective and presumed national characteristic, DO have a “screw everybody” mentality? That to be a perfectly moderate Conservative voter marks that person out as a selfish scumbag? You’re certainly saying it about me personally.
Time was, I used to get wound up by stuff like this, but these days I just can’t summon the energy (especially at 1am
“Enterprise and social justice are not a contradiction of terms in this country”
They’re not a contradiction in this country either.
Plenty of people, myself included, think there is a sensible balance to be struck between the two, based on decency and reflective of the kind of society that we’re all buying into as citizens, democrats, stakeholders and human beings, basically. And yes, that includes plenty of ordinary, decent, well-meaning English Tories, believe it or not. People like me are hardly clamouring, Scrooge-like, for the return of the Victorian workhouse.
“The problem is, our resources are being screwed, hence our people are being screwed.”
I don’t have the time or inclination to explore this in any depth, but suffice to say I *do* understand this side of the Indy argument. Scotland is a net contributor to the UK; I understand from you guys that it pays in more than it gets out (in monetary terms at least). Taking that at face value, and ignoring all other benefits of the Union – whether you agree they’re real/valid – you’re basically left, yet again, with a very “Tory concept”: standing on your own two feet (again), getting as much of *your own* money *for yourselves*. Why is this sentiment so appalling to you and your ilk when (supposedly) applied by individuals, but totally laudable when applied to Scotland as a whole? It’s basically all about money in both cases.
O/T apologies
The Herald – Cameron: entire UK Cabinet is coming to Scotland later this year
Worth it for the below the line comment by Peter Piper – I won’t spoil it.
Captain Caveman says:
15 Au.”
ust, 2013 at 12:13 am
“Eh? I’m not hoping to “pick up” on anyone! Sorry but that’s just ridiculous mate, here of all places? I can confidently state that not one single person will be 1% swayed by anything I’ve got to say.
That is because you do talk shite ‘mate’.
Charming! That’s me told, huh – I’m crying a river here pal.
I can quote other people’s posts though.
Captain Caveman,
Sorry if your off to bed already, just curious, do you see an opportunity for a rejuvenated Tory party in Scotland after independence?
IMHO Westminster ideology hasnt just warped the Labour party beyond recognition its also warped the Conservative party in Scotland into something that an increasing majority of people will not support. Moreover whenever I look at Tory policy in Westminster and I see many folk in the Scottish Tories talking about policy, it becomes apparent you dont actually agree with them on much.
@ Captain Caveman,
What you are saying is at heart fair and rational. The trouble is, it is not what your party at Westminster are saying. And you support them? How can you have it both ways?
In my opinion, the problem with both Labour and Tory parties is that their members have allowed themselves to become disenfranchised, allowing the leadership effectively to rule by dictat. It’s not healthy.
I have no proof, but it’s my instinct that the SNP would never allow this. We’re a one member one vote party. If the leadership starts acting against the instincts of its members, we have the mechanism to bring it to heel. That’s why I’m a member.
My suspicion, however, is that the membership of the Tory party (in general) is happy with the policies put forward by its leaders, and would, if anything, prefer them to swing even further to the right. So my question to you is how, given the views you express above, you can continue to be a supporter?
I’ll just drop one word into that. Lockerbie.
Captain Caveman,
I have no trust or faith in the Conservatives. I witnessed the breakdown of a once decent community under Thatcher’s tenure.
It wasn’t pretty and there was no need for it to happen other than greed. Good people were thrown on the scrapheap for the sake of “The City”.
I will grant you one thing. Nationalised industry was failing, however, all it needed was a firm hand at the tiller to steer it back in the right direction. What it didn’t need was to be thrown to the wolves and asset stripped for a quick buck.
While the Tories were hellbent on destroying industry and the unions the Germans were working with them and making sure it was fit for purpose. Who’s laughing now I wonder?
I never say never in life but the only way I would ever vote Conservative would be in an independent Scotland where I could at least boot them at the ballot box and be guaranteed to throw them out the door should they push that line again.
The Tory party will never be electable in Scotland as long as were tied to Westminster. You would do well to put that message across to your party colleagues.
I can’t even force myself to vote Labour again until we’re independent so you’ve got two chances – None and fuck all!
Please stick around though as your comments are welcome and certainly listened to.
“Nationalised industry was failing, however, all it needed was a firm hand at the tiller to steer it back in the right direction.”
Mm. You only have to look at the East Coast rail franchise to see that there is NO inherent trait of nationalised industry that makes it inefficient or lazy or low-quality.
This might be helpful, readers: think of Captain Caveman as a sort of Tory version of Duncan Hothersall. Now, that’s very unfair to CC without qualification, so I’ll qualify it: unlike Dunc, he’s neither thick as pigshit nor motivated by malice. But the thing the two have in common is an idealised, romanticised fantasy image of the values of the party they support, that stubbornly and blindly rejects all the evidence about how those parties have actually behaved since somewhere around 1975.
So Duncan, who wants nuclear disarmament, stridently insists we vote Labour to achieve it, no matter how many senior Labour figures come out and say “We need to spend £100bn on a new Trident system for Britain’s security”. And similarly, CC still convinces himself that the Tories’ vicious welfare cuts – aimed all but openly at creating a new wretched, indentured serf class – are actually meant for the benefit of the poor, and are a manifestation of the well-meaning patrician Tory philosophy of the 1950s, and will continue to believe that no matter how much evidence piles up to the contrary, partly because he thinks that a brief personal experience of unemployment several decades ago gives him an insight into how the system works now.
CC could read the Sealand Gazette all day and put every bit of it down to individual errors, unfortunate oversights in legislative drafting, over-zealous administrators exceeding/misinterpreting their brief, and any number of other excuses, rather than confront the fact unmissable by any remotely rational observer that things are happening this way because they were designed to happen this way.
For all the extremely heated arguments I’ve had with him in the past, he’s a hundred times the human being Hothersall is. But in that core aspect of their political identity, you couldn’t get a playing card between them.
I see this guy all the time and suspect he accepts payment to put anything on his buggy that you wish. If we were to offer him a nominal fee, I’m confident he will zoom about Glasgow with’YES Scotland’ banners.
Or Wings over Scotland promo?
cH
thanks but I think McWhirter made a whopper of a mistake when he wrote that Scotland has 40,000 millionaires?
4,000 just maybe?
Many decades ago we had a Scottish Tory party; the Scottish Unionists. They were modestly right of centre and fairly liberal (even with their religious aspect). Did very well in elections, taking nearly half the vote and balancing the socialist left of the old Labour party. They were even very proudly nationalistic.
Their demised began when they stopped being a Scottish party in 1964 and instead we just had an English Conservative party with some Scots in it. Then that party stopped being fairly moderate too and that was the end of them.
why is this sentiment so appalling to you and your ilk when (supposedly) applied by individuals, but totally laudable when applied to Scotland as a whole? It’s basically all about money in both cases.
Because you can’t build a society based on individualism. In fact this is an underlying reason the ‘British’ society created by the post-war consensus has been falling apart; what held it together has been being dismantled. In response, a Scottish one has re-emerged as increasingly pre-eminent north of the Cheviots.
There will be plenty of opportunities to display and celebrate what has gone before, but our anthem should be one which heralds the future aspirations of our reborn Scotland.
The trouble with that is that nobody can really judge the longevity of a new tune and new words. FoS, arguably, will be past its sell-by date the minute the Yes vote gets a majority next year. It’s an anthem for a people who are not YET “a nation again”. We don’t want to take that with us. And who would seriously favour “your wee bit hill and glen” (cringe!) over words by Burns?
A new tune to herald the future – the future we don’t yet know about? How can we know a brand new song written now will still be relevant at all in 100 years? We can’t. What we do know about SWH is that it has already survived centuries. The tune may be over 700 years old and the words are by one of the world’s great poets, who just happens to be ours.
We have been brainwashed into rejecting what should be (and once was) a huge symbol of our nationhood and source of national pride. This should be, to us, what La Marseillaise is to the French and Hen wlad fy nhadau to the Welsh and the Star-Spangled Banner to the Americans. How can we imagine we can just whistle up a replacement for that, something that will still have that power in another 700 years?
If we reject our natural and historic national anthem, we will be doing the unionists’ work for them.
OT.
Cal UKaye blaming the Scottish govt. for fhe obesity problem. One of the ‘experts’ let slip his true motives when he used the words ‘Scottish Assembly’, before correcting himself.
link to archive.is
A good read on the Herald but don’t click on the page as that will direct you to the original.
Lianachan says:
14 August, 2013 at 3:00 pm
Balefire – far more detailed and interesting information can be found on the really rather good Flags of the World website:
link to fotw.net
Great. Thanks Lianachan.
I think that is a fair point Rev. There are good human beings in all the parties (well I’m not sure about the BNP my experience there is limited and to date not pleasant) but I have met people I have liked who are Tories, Greens, Labour, Liberal, SSP and SNP. People who choose a road because they genuinely believe it is the best path to the desination of a happy healthy society that is free and fair are sound. I may disagree with their chosen path and point out that I think it will not go where they think it goes but it is the path not the person that I argue against. Cavey as far as I have seen here falls into this camp.
People that choose a path because they think it will provide the best vantage point to pee on the people on another path. or because the path itself is their bread and butter and they have no interest in the destination …then it can become a wee bit nippy and I can be nippy
Rev you might find this useful.
link to joanmcalpine.typepad.com
Balefire
Why is the Irish Saltire broken?
With all due respect Rev even my old man who was a steelworker & staunch union man (Who is now a firm Yes BTW!) could see that they were being mismanaged (deliberately?).
My point was NOT that the people at the coalface so to speak were lazy or inefficient it was that Thatcher had the opportunity when the oil revenue bore fruit to reinvigorate our once proud manufacturing base and bring it into the 20th century. A manufacturing base that could have equalled or even bettered the Germans.
Instead she chose to piss it up the wall on unemployment benefits whilst dismantling manufacturing and laying the foundations of the shite hole we now find ourselves in.
For me personally that’s the main reason why the tory party are toxic in Scotland.
“With all due respect Rev even my old man who was a steelworker & staunch union man (Who is now a firm Yes BTW!) could see that they were being mismanaged (deliberately?).
My point was NOT that the people at the coalface so to speak were lazy or inefficient”
I know. I was agreeing with you.
Rev. You are Bob-on with your assessment of the nationalised industries. It was inept, blinkered management and a centralised structure firmly based in London that caused the bulk of problems in days of yore. Constant ministerial interference for reasons of ideological dogma didn’t help either. It wasn’t confined to state industries either. The British aero industry of the 1940s and 50s was massive and world leading but was brought low by a combination of inept management and government meddling. James Hamilton Paterson’s ‘Empire of the Clouds’ tells the tale graphically.
Glasgow’s own NBL fell victim so complacent management who only switched on to the advent of diesel power on the world’s railways too late. Ironically, they were finished off by government interference in the design of new diesels for BR.
On the other hand, state ownership as you evidenced with the East Coast franchise can be pretty unbeatable and it’s certainly one of the best examples around.
I think McWhirter made a whopper of a mistake when he wrote that Scotland has 40,000 millionaires?
4,000 just maybe?
I’m sure he didn’t make a mistake. A million pounds isn’t that much these days. Anyone with a nice house, a pension fund and some savings, maybe a legacy, can top that without a lot of difficulty. It’s not even “rich”. (Having a million in liquid funds would be pretty well off, but even that it’s that unusual.)
Morag
40,000 millionaires is £40 Billion in nominal wealth.
How many hospitals, schools or Trident submarines does that represent and when compared to the GDP of Scotland?
Morag
Well, well, well,
according to the Hootsmon, of the 13th August this year , there are, according to Barclays, 40,000 millionaires in Scotland?
My flabber is ghasted.
Bugger (the Panda) – It wasn’t me you asked, but I can answer your “why is the Irish Saltire broken?” question.
From the Flags of the World site:
“In 1801, an Act of Union which made Ireland a co-equal member of the United Kingdom made it necessary to add a symbol for Ireland to the flag, but without obliterating any of the existing symbols. If the St. Patrick’s cross had been centered on the diagonal stripes, then St. Andrew’s cross would have been relegated to an inferior position, basically serving only as a border for St. Patrick’s. But Scotland was the senior of the two kingdoms, so this was unsatisfactory. The solution was to divide the diagonal stripes diagonally, so that the red St. Patrick’s cross would take up only half of each stripe, and so that half devoted to St. Andrew would take the place of honor. Thus, in the two hoist quarters, the white St. Andrew’s cross occupies the upper position, and in the two fly quarters, the red St. Patrick’s cross occupies the upper position.”
Thanks Lianachan, I thought it was a subtle message to the Irish of their subjugation.
mPerhaps he’s one of the “Undecided?
Indeed. You’ll notice which of the flags included is topmost, too.
@ Bugger (the Panda)
‘according to the Hootsmon, of the 13th August this year , there are, according to Barclays, 40,000 millionaires in Scotland?
My flabber is ghasted.’
I’m guessing most of those are largely asset millionaires e.g. property or land. Still a disproportionately small amount for the UK as a whole, 675K.
@Morag
I have been a fan of the Corries since the sixties, and I have always liked ‘Flower of Scotland’ apart from a couple of niggles about the words. However, I agree with you that it is not a good choice as a national anthem. ‘Scots Wha Hae’ has the advantages of an ancient tune, words by Burns, and suitability for the pipes. Just about any tune can become a dirge if played to slowly; at a brisk tempo SWH is stirring and uplifting.
Perhaps the best compromise is to have SWH as the official national anthem, and to keep FoS for sporting events.
He’s a guy, on a scooter, with some flags. No need to over-analyse.
He’s a very nice guy, as it happens. I’ve met him. Usually has has No Bedroom Tax placards and lions rampart. That’ll confuse yis, eh?
“He’s a guy, on a scooter, with some flags. No need to over-analyse.
He’s a very nice guy, as it happens. I’ve met him. Usually has has No Bedroom Tax placards and lions rampart. That’ll confuse yis, eh?”
You get that the piece ISN’T about the bloke on the scooter, right?
Iain Macwhirter: ‘It’s one long party at the nation’s expense.’
George Carlin: ‘It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it.’
I have lifted this from Kenneth Roy’s blog, Scottish Review. It is about ownership of Scottish land
“Here’s some of their figures. Around 0.025% of Scotland owns 67% of the privately-owned land. Much is now owned by people who live out of the country, pay no tax, and by claiming millions in subsidy arguably become the most successful of all our benefit cheats.”
link to scottishreview.net
Now that is a project for Scotland to tackle post independence.
Captain Caveman,
‘I’m actually starting to think that because the Conservative Party in Scotland is *such* a ‘toxic brand’, to use the dreadful common parlance-cum-marketing-speek, many Scots don’t actually realise they actually agree with many of their policies? You can’t get any MORE Tory than “standing on your own two feet” and an aversion to dependency culture.’
Don’t worry, we realise just fine. Begs the question though, why would a Scottish Conservative and their party not be pushing for all powers to be held in Scotland in order that we ‘stand on our own two feet and practice self reliance’?
Instead they push the ‘old subsidy junkie’ myths and openly state that Scotland would be simply ignored in the world without the help and extra voice of our big pal down south. (See speeches to UK conferences from every Tory Scottish Secretary or Leader in my living memory). Doesn’t make sense does it?
Until you consider the undemocratic self interest of the Scottish Conservative Party and it’s members up here, that is.
The individuals who have managed to gain power over the Scottish conservative party, gained their positions through the patronage of the UK/English Tory party. This is achieved by spouting, and or believing in, policies conceived in Westminster, no matter how unpopular they prove to be here in Scotland.
That also means that ALL the Scottish political party leadership mechanism have, over the years, produced a leadership that gained and retained real power in Scotland by appointment via the Scottish Office and not through anything as basic as a democratic process here in Scotland. (Remember that before our Parliament, all it’s current powers were essentially in the hands of one UK Prime minister appointed man in the Scottish Office!).
This over the decades has instilled a thoroughly undemocratic mindset in any politician who wants to successfully hold power within Scotland (and then hopefully, eventually the UK). Which means essentially ALL the unionist politicians. How could a political system like that produce anything else?
In the new political environment post Hollyrood, that same leadership mechanism is producing leaderships that see the only realistic hope of a successful career in politics, while holding their political views, to be by retaining the strong undemocratic patronage that the Union has nurtured here in Scotland for so long. Hence the decimation of their electoral support in Scotland, but their steadfast and complete backing of the Status quo, even as you say, if it totally contradicts their supposed founding principles of self reliance and personal accountability.
Ironically we are seeing the Scottish Labour Party following the exact same path to democratic destruction and for exactly the same reasons.
As an aside, it may also be interesting to think of the current commercially suicidal direction of the Scottish News Papers and Broadcasters in a similar way. In order to somehow explain what seem to be totally contradictory requirements, the more they die in Scotland, the more they seem intent on to becoming ever more unrepresentative and insulting of the views of their customer base. A singularly Scottish phenomena or a result of it’s structural system within the Union? You can guess my take on that!
I think you Captain, are representative of most of the English electorate, in that you quite reasonably see politics in the ‘normal’ terms of elections and Governments formed from those elections.
Leaderships that spend all their political skills and talents trying their damndest to divine what their electorate actually want, rather than just what their electorate say they want. This is normal democratic politics. Everyone moans, but you get the Government you vote for. Pretty simple.
However, I think an electorate that is so long used to a set up like that finds it almost impossible to comprehend the simple lack of Democratic accountability inherent in the political system Scotland has been labouring under (no pun intended) for the last century. Ireland and Wales too I would imagine.
So all I am trying to say here is that I am afraid you are wasting your time with that particular line of party political argument at this stage, as our battle at the moment is over the basic concept of Democracy and accountability to the Scots electorate. It’s a simple and long held desire that the Unionist Parties in Scotland have been unable to adapt to post Hollyrood due to these inherent structural and historical reasons at the very heart of the Union.
The SNP is a wide coalition of political views. This is why you and many others outside Scotland are confused at what they perceive as inconsistency. I hope I have gone some way to explaining why it isn’t and it won’t be, until an Independent Scotland has free democratic elections and puts the party that lost the worst in charge, until the next election. And on, and on, and on …….
While SWH and FoS are great songs, I don’t fancy them as national anthems because of the militaristic tone of their words (I once wrote variations on SWH for guitar called ‘Lyric Variations on a Martial Theme’). ‘A Man’s a Man’ would still be my choice. As with the others you can raise the tempo a little to make it livelier, and the message in the lyrics is more appropriate for a recovered nation, speaking of our aspirations rather than our past. As our immigrant population grows, it won’t be everyone’s past anyway.
I confess to being a bit suspicious of the whole idea of national anthems anyway – maybe even anthems in general. Couldn’t we do without? If not, How about this?
I don’t deny for one second that Scotland has an illustrious history, but it’s this girning about the past that has always held us back from moving forward.
There will be plenty of opportunities to display and celebrate what has gone before, but our anthem should be one which heralds the future aspirations of our reborn Scotland.
Guess I’ll have to agree to disagree. From my POV, flags and national anthems don’t need to be heralds for future aspirations: policies and commitments do. But yes, girning about the past isn’t helpful.
Captain Caveman,
Oh I forgot to say that any positive case for the Union that you are working on, to have any effect on me, would somehow have to explain why the situation and systems I have described in my last post are in any way good for the Scots electorate. Or at the very least address the issue, as it really is one of the foundation stones of the Scottish Independence movement.
‘according to the Hootsmon, of the 13th August this year , there are, according to Barclays, 40,000 millionaires in Scotland?
My flabber is ghasted.’
I’ll say it again, if you’re adding up an individual’s total wealth, a million pounds is not all that much in these inflationary times. It’s a nice comfortable existence with a nice house and a decent pension fund and some savings in the bank, but it’s not jet-set. And 40,000 is well under 0.01% of the population.
So, scooter-man is the modern equivalent of the sandwich-board man? He’ll drive around all day, hogging pavements, with no clear destination, oblivious to whatever message he happens to be carrying?
Should we applaud his entrepreneurial spirit? Is this what CC means by ‘standing on your own two feet’? (Okay, it’s an unfortunate expression, but you know what I mean.)
@Braco
at 10:41 am
Good comment!
La Marche des les soldats de Robert Bruce (Scots Wha Hae) played as a piccolo duet by Musikzug Battenburg would get my vote. Could possibly be softly played by a brass band, cornet solo with the bass,then the euphonium slowly coming in as per the Battenburg version.
Man in the Jar,
Thanks Min!
Rev Stu,
Thanks for italicising that quote of the Captain’s in my post. I only noticed my mistake after it was too late, sorry.
Scotland The Brave has only had one nomination above.
I am not a fan of how it is normally done. Always reminds me of the kind of anthem you hear played by some running band from a tiny republic somewhere.
However, its amazing how so very few note and beat changes can make a huge difference and the version used for another set of Hamish Henderson’s lyrics ‘The John MacLean March’ is, I believe, worthy of consideration (with different lyrics obv.).
Here is an example, it isn’t ideal but I’m sure folk can imagine pipes and a huge crowd singing it.
link to youtube.com
Scotland The Brave has only had one nomination above.
Scotland the Brave is my third choice after Scots Wha Hae and Hoots Mon.
“My missus works in Glasgow and has seen this chap on more than a few occasions, usually blaring music as he wheels about. ”
Aye, he fair cheered up the last anti-Trident Demo blaring music out of speakers on his scooter.
There must be quite a few confused people who are “proud Scots”, love the saltire, hate Tory governments, want an end to Trident and bedroom tax etc, but for some reason are wedded to a party line or historic propaganda about “keeping the union”. Many don’t really seem to understand what they’re voting for or against. Or perhaps some genuinely believe an independent Scotland would be even more right wing or nothing would change.
btw I’ve always thought Highland Cathedral would make a great national anthem but I think I might be out on my own there. And apparently it was written by a German…
It’s got no history to speak of and the words are pretty twee and meaningless. Nice tune, but we’ve got nice tunes coming out of our ears.
From my POV, flags and national anthems don’t need to be heralds for future aspirations: policies and commitments do.
But people don’t sing about policies and commitments, they want to sing about how great their country is.
So, let’s go for ‘Down in the Glen’, eh?
More of a Scots Wha Hae and Dark Lochnagar fan myself. Perhaps its time though for a new anthem penned for the occasion?
Morag, aren’t the nice tunes supposed to go in our ears rather than come out? Have I been doing the listening thing all wrong up ’til now?
Problem with writing a new one is that it is very difficult to come up with a very good tune which has quality. If it were easy, maybe the Eurovision Song Contest would be easier on the ear (although the last one was better than most). Add in the extra need for it to invoke an identifiable spirit of the country it represents and the difficulty is compounded.
Highland Cathedral, for me, is a great tune – but, take the German National anthem (another great tune) and sprinkle it with a few Scotch snaps, and it would be very similar.
For me Freedom Come All Ye is favourite. When a large crowd sings it, the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
Dick Gaughan IMO, does the best rendition by a single performer, I can’t find any crowd singing of it although I’ve been in a few which have done. Including one memorable occasion lead from the stage by Hamish himself in the Great Democracy March.
link to youtube.com
As I say, only minor tweaks required to the lyrics to ‘convert’ it to an anthem.
My national anthem top 3
1. Scots Wha Hae
2. Bonnie Lass o’ Fyvie
3. Scotland The Brave
See what you mean Chic. Thought it might be a way of engaging our musical artists for the occasion, but a point well taken.