A tale of two hearts
Posted on
July 11, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
From last night’s Question Time. We don’t think it’s funny.
We think it sums up the respective campaigns pretty well, in truth.
Why is it when QT comes to Scotland, the always find some drunk to put on air, not once but twice last night.
Just sad.
He sounded like Ian Paisley, at one time.
No Surrendurrr!
In an at times bizarre campaign, this was a new high water mark in terms of strangeness.
The purest distillation of the No voter?
Scary insane person..yep, I’d say that about sums up their campaign as well.
Did he escape from a nursing home? As above the only thing missing was him saying feck the pope and that he wants boils all over Gerry Adams.
Reminds me a bit of one Thomas O’Golo on Herald forums…
Interesting to think how this man would be viewed if his skin was a different colour and he was acting in the name of a different god
Here’s another man who has recently been quoted as being prepared to die for his cause.
link to bbc.com
i’m sure unionists will just dismiss him as a harmless loon…….until he gets his shotgun out
I wonder what he thinks about the Canadian, South African, Australian, New Zealand, Indian, Nigerian etc. etc. WWII veterans would feel about that. Living there in their independent countries.
I grew up in NZ and old soldiers there talk about the necessity of fighting fascism and Japanese expansionism. A few will be like him but not many. They are proud of having fought fascism, not generally proud of having fought for Britain.
His rant is an offence to all the Empire and Dominion troops who fought alongside him and went home to build their own countries and in many cases wrest them from British control.
“The purest distillation of the No voter?”
No, no, no. That’s exactly the wrong point. Captain No Surrender there isn’t encapsulating the average No VOTER. Lots of No voters are normal folk who just aren’t sure we can manage independence because they’ve spent their whole lives listening to the media telling them we can’t.
He sums up the No CAMPAIGN. “Vote No because of wars and death and Rule Britannia!” Is their best stab at a positive case, their idea of the happy side of “too wee, too poor, too stupid”.
You don’t win voters over by telling them they’re morons – partly because it’s not smart, but mostly because it’s not true. You win by showing them they’re being lied to.
Sharpen the hell up, readers. The isn’t much time left.
Amazing to see the passion of someone who seems happy to blindly ‘follow orders’ like his grandfather and grand-uncle did in WWI.
The only way to shine a floodlight on just how broken things have become where Westminster thinks it is synonymous with anything outside the M25, Scotland needs to demonstrate by democratically and peacefully saying YES to independence.
http://imgur.com/zTY5gcP
US colonists had tried their hardest to make parliament listen to their unique concerns over a number of years, all the time being ignored and escalating the inequality.
My pro-union relative has recently changed their mind after the video on the food banks. They used to donate heavily to Romanian orphans after the fall of the wall. Until they took food INTO a food bank, they were unaware of just who was using them and why.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/from-shettleston-to-maryhill/
21st Century thinking is needed to stop things getting worse.
Dimbelby chose him twice as well. I could sense the programme Director prompting him to do so through his ear prompt.
I wish Ricki Ross had pointed out that Osbourne, so far, has only implemented 40% of his cuts.Perhaps he mentioned it elsewhere.I didn’t watch it, but I will now.
Good response to the question from Ricky but I feel sorry for the gentleman from the audience. The world and its certainties he knew are gone and he is clinging to his past like a limpet rock. If the gentlemen can’t link the destruction of his precious regiment to being part of the union then it’s a classic case of cognitive dissonance or he’s just at the wind up I have no idea.
Somebody on here will surely know he is and give us the lowdown.
After reading the comments on here last night I decided to watch QT on the iplayer. It was actually very enjoyable, both Ricky Ross and Joan Burnie were in top form offering plenty of good arguments to vote Yes. Scott Hastings and the business guy were hopeless.
It was noticable in the beginning that some pro-Union comments were getting applause but they began to dissipate as the program went on. On the other hand the pro-independence support from the audience seemed to increase.
It’s also worth watching Tommy Sheridan on This Week, he absolutely destroyed Portillo and Charles Kennedy.
I think the Rev has made a valid point (again) The NO campaign clings to the past because it has no answer for the present and no vision for the future. The man in the audience encapsulated that point effectively with his spiel
@Tattie-bogle says: 11 July, 2014 at 7:04 am
“Did he escape from a nursing home? As above the only thing missing was him saying feck the pope and that he wants boils all over Gerry Adams”.
Well this is going to be a new experiance for me, and I may well be, “Godwined”, for it, but the guy had his right arm raised in a well known salute and perhaps the tone was more checkered like Adolf than patterened like Paisley.
I thought the audience was vetted. Was this a BT plant ? They poor befuddled fool doesn’t realise they same government he was shouting for destroyed the regiments his father and uncle were in.if anyone needs Jesus it is this guy.
An Ulster man telling us he’s British.
If he wasn’t organised by the producer to be there I’m George Clooney.
I spent three years there during the ‘Troubles,’ the euphemism given to folk killing each other over hatred of their religion, or fighting to keep their shop open, and the British government helping them along with assassinations.
“I’m British!” they’d shout, and I’d try to tell them that the UK, aka, England, didn’t give a fig, nor anybody accepts they’re English. They prefer them to stay where they are, marooned and remote.
“I’m British shouted our man in the studio audience, and Dimbleby handed him over to the independence supporter on the panel. Why?
I don’t think this poor man is the full shilling. The BBC has set him up as target for ridicule. It smacks of X factor cringe. Lets all point and laugh “don’t think so”! Shame on the BBC.
[…] « A tale of two hearts […]
Its all about war and sacrifice.
We’ve sacrificed enough in war and peacetime for our current union. Its time we gave peace a chance on its own.
The complete personification of Better Together, No Thanks, UKOK. wouldn’t vote Yes if ALL our lives depended on it. Most folks will be open minded enough to listen to the facts, and the only thing required is to get them access to them.
He’s been campaigning locally for No (on an indivdual basis). He’s very eccentric and mostly ignored. He did hold a meeting which some Higland politicians are believed to have attended.
I felt very sorry for that man. He seemed a quite lost soul with, I suspect, no family, and living on memories of friends in an Army which has let down all its former soldiers. He is more to be pitied than scorned. On the other hand, someone should have reminded Mr Hastings that the ‘British’ Lions invites Eire players; Eire which is not just an independent country from the UK but rejected the monarchy, membership of NATO and manages quite well with no oil.Finally, just listen to the audience reaction when Mr Savage suggested ‘YES’ are “anti-English”. Between the three of them, I am sure many undecideds will have become ‘YES.’
No campaign – fear, negativity, clinging desperately to a long gone imperial past
Yes campaign – hope, possibility, how great our future could be if we work to make a fairer country
I cannot for the life of me understand better together no thanks – a win on the “we’re all doomed” platform would be a very shoogly peg unlikely to survive past the next GE. Mind you, prob enough time to get the ermine, silly me.
Off topic I know, I have noticed a change in the Daily Record reporting of the independence debate (more independence friendly comments), could the Daily Record coming out in support for a YES vote be the game changer we are all waiting for?
During the warm up debate before the panel arrived he was calling for a Puritan revival in Scotland. As soon as he was called upon to comment in the broadcast half the audience winced (the other half probably giggled).
Simplest response Ricki Ross could have taken would have been simply, it isn’t about national identity, British Gov have said you’d still retain British Citizenship, so it’s another chance to let the viewing audience know about that particular point gone to the wind.
And I agree with Rev, that is all the no campaign is about, it’s what Cameron repeatedly goes back to and will be the main point in the run up to the referendum, World War 2 and fighting the Nazi’s.
Another thing that is bothering me about the responses from the Yes lot, is that they speak about the 3 main parties pledges about further devolution.
There is no longer 3 main parties, there is 4. And the newest member to that club is never asked their opinion on further devo, nor do interviewers bring them and we let them get away with it.
We all know the poll figures concerning further UKIP success in relation to Independence, we are missing a massive point here, EVERYTIME a yesser is asked about further devo, bring up the maybe coalition partner in 2015….UKIP.
Don’t the BBC screen the QT audience to ensure balance?
If so, then someone at the Beeb thought he was fine to go on air…
John was going to interrupt Ricky with a phrase like “passion (or the heart) doesn’t pay the bills.” Something like that, listen again and you will hear it.
Yet the point the member of the audience makes is all about passion and the heart.
That is what the Union is all about for the No campaign; nods to the past, to empire, to achievements made in a past viewed through rose tinted glasses.
Indeed the message of dependency played to us by the No campaign is firmly rooted within the past. “To wee, to poor, to stupid” is rooted in a stereotypical image of Scots and Scotland.
There is no vision of a better future, because the No campaign cannot articulate one based on a lie. There is no “big idea” that we can anchor our hopes and aspirations to. It’s just a plea for us to cling to a never ending cycle of economic madness and social erosion, where the elite (Darling, Brown, Dugdale, Lamont, Alexander, Mundell etc) can float to the top and enjoy the sunshine.
Vote Yes, break the cycle, allow Scotland to prosper and bring hope to the rUK by setting an example by demonstrating how things can be done positively that benefit all of society.
Off topic I know, I have noticed a change in the Daily Record reporting of the independence debate (more independence friendly comments), could the Daily Record coming out in support for a YES vote be the game changer we are all waiting for?
There would have to be staff changes at an editorial level for that to happen which is unlikely. The DR is more ‘balanced’ than other newspapers but it is still firmly pro-Union.
“I don’t think this poor man is the full shilling. The BBC has set him up as target for ridicule. It smacks of X factor cringe. Lets all point and laugh “don’t think so”! Shame on the BBC.”
Spot on Wee Jimmy. This piece of exploitative nonsense says much more about the BBC & Dimbleby than it does about genuine No voters, with whom I debate at every opportunity. I agree that Ross & Burnie were impressively measured & assured. There were several easily identifiable BTNT plants in the audience. Tabloid TV at its worst. Dimbleby will watch the replay with horror.
Ach! Dinna mock the afflicted.
Without doubt a hand picked participant.
As this is the only part of QT that I have seen I will reserve judgement on the rest.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
A tale of two hearts and two brain cells!
I feel that allowing this guy to make his rant was a bad decision by the BBC . Question time is actually recorded about half an hour before it goes live . I know this because I was ,believe it or not invited in to the audience by David Dimbleby himself( long story) some years ago So that any thing like that happening can be edited out. However I feel that we should ,instead of criticising this guy ,we should feel fortunate that we are not in his position . We all have our own roads to travel and we do not know this guys road but I can imagine it has been pretty rough.
O/T a bit too early but actually really quite relevant.
After I switched off the computer in the wee sma hours this morning and went to bed I had a train of thoughts going through my head as I slipped into dreamland.
I had been an independence supporter for a long time before this bit of information first came to light.
For me, it marked the beginning of a new chapter in the ever slow advance towards a Bella Caledonia once again her own mistress. Now real information was arriving on the scene.
What was this little bit of information?
It was the work of a forensic accountant called Niall Aslan. It first came to my notice around May 2000 and was then titled something like, “The Big Lie”.
It since seems to have been redone and become : –
“The Great Deception”.
Here is a link. Don’t take my word for it – imagine yourself back in the year 2000 when Scots were being officially told they were too wee, too poor and too bloody stupid to ever aspire to running their own country and you were confronted with this : –
link to electricscotland.com
The future is what counts, the past is history. Whilst it is not in anyone’s interest to denigrate British history the Second World War was over 2 generations ago. The reason we have not had another war is because of social economic integration/interdependency through the EU.
Exactly what a Tory/UKIP alliance would threaten.
Vote yes for responsibility, democracy and because we bloody well can.
(Still need to convert a few no’s though and there are plenty of them about )
not much heat or light, as usual discussion was mainly about policy issues, ignoring the point that policy can only be firmed up after negotiations show what we will have to work with. There seems to me to be little point in making programs when all the questions are pre selected mainly to give the result that the producers want. What they want is entertainment, never enlightenment.
Dimbleby will be getting the dunces cap for letting a panelist tell the facts without interruption.
@Chalks
So, so close and only weeks to go.
We can do this.
What is it with the worse together campaign they all seem to be compete buffoons. See the Hoots mon is letting that idiot MacTernan have his rant today.
© Ian Paisley, circa 1981.
Rather than personifying Better Together, this gentleman seems more suited to one of their fellow travellers, one which even BT don’t want. These type of people refuse to accept change, and I shudder to think what damage they’ll do to Scotland after a Yes vote.
Professional punters bet singles,maybe a e/w double,e/w treble,a 4 timer accumulator,unheard of
Andrew Neil has managed a cyber nat accumulator
twitter feed
daily politics
sunday politics
this week
I am sure that old soldier on QT passionately believed in what he said. I also believe, he will go into the booth on 1809 and vote No. That’s his decision.
He came across a bit like Groundskeeper Willie’s posher elder brother, but, you can bet your bottom dollar, the producer of QT saw him as broadcasting gold dust – they (the guys upstairs in the gallery) just love that sort of impassioned audience member – he gets the audience talking: around the water cooler (as they say in the USA) this morning. It will be: “Did you see that old guy on Question Time last night”?
He didn’t bring anything new to the debate, which I am sure was won by the Yes side, Just Joan played a blinder, while Ricky Ross sailed his ship named Dignity well. Scott Hastings and the businessmen were off the pace.
But, let’s not be harsh on the old Highlander – I don’t agree with him, but, he has earned the right to say his piece.
I feel sorry for him, but I feel even more sorry for the person who was sat next to him.
It was bad enough that they didn’t cut his first contribution, but to then go back to him again later on was ridiculous. They clearly thought “wow, let’s get this total nutter back on again, it’ll totally go viral!”
And here’s series producer, Brendan Miller, essentially admitting just that: link to twitter.com
the poor No chap – is as you saw him – in his own world and suffering mental health issues all his adult life . He was a familiar face in my local Highland community when I was growing up and is a ‘real person’ the son of a well respected local doctor. I remember him as a child as a local eccentric, harmless enough and tolerated as these folks are in small Scottish communities, till he left to lead his life in other parts of the world. That aside he comes from classic Scottish ‘Unionist’ stock ( the son of a well respected local GP) and is voicing the usual patriotic unwavering line handed down the generations which comes from blind devotion of the old colonial British Empire with god on our side. Whether you think he is mad or not it is a line you will hear a lot from the moneyed Scottish gentry who are
He certainly liked Crash Gordon but was he that much more bonkers than Andrew Neil straight after? Sarah Smith’s bulging eyed whine on Neil’s horrific Politics show was also verging on a “why wont they do as I say” tantrum/breakdown.
“he will go into the booth on 1809 and vote No”
He’ll go into the booth in 1809, more like…
Doug: Jesus, I saw that tweet but didn’t realise who the tweeter was.
Humiliating for the old soldier. Allowing him to speak once was an unforeseeable error – but twice is exploitative as others have said. Shame on Dimbleby and the BBC.
Brendan Miller produces QT and nothing sums up BBC heart of darkness than their own words/tweets. Oh the sheer thrill of annihilating Scottish democracy, its like Brendan’s having an organism
“I promise you – PROMISE you – you must watch at least the first 10 mins of tonight”
The poor man made me wince.But why did they allow him to rant?Because they hoped Ricki Ross would get down to his level?
Ricki Ross was brilliant and certainly more compassionate than Dimbelby.
A YES vote is not only for your pocket but for your place on the moral high ground.
UKIP praising him twitter
UKIP David Jones
My type of Scot what a legend-#highlander ‘I AM BRIITSH FOREVER WE WILL NEVER CHANGE WE WILL KEEP OUR UNION TOGETHER’
press will no doubt find out who he is
He is a nutter: there are nutters on all sides of every question. What is sad is that even a supposedly “heavyweight” programme is prepared to rely on the distasteful interest people have in visiting bedlam to laugh at the inmates, for viewing figures.
I suppose we can counter that by arguing that this is a genuine thread in the debate, coming from the more extreme end of the orange order, for example. But they are not mainstream, and it is ultimately a distraction, is it not?
as I was saying the No chap on QT voices a view pretty typical of the moneyed Scottish Unionist voting ‘gentry’ many of them landowners,many ex military, who have voted Tory all their lives cos they really don’t know how to do anything else ….and if they repeat their views loud enough and often enough in authoritarian voices, in public places as they believe is their innate’right’ all the plebs will nod in agreement and think they know what they are talking about. Like the man on QT we just have to smile politely , feel a little sad for them and move on, leaving them in the past where they belong….
Dinnatouch.
They will do no damage
Because the locusts will eat them
Another day of ukok project fear. We’re meant to be in the neutral unbiased run up for BBC coverage but this certainly is not.
link to bbc.co.uk
David Wooding
Associate Political Editor at The Sun since February 2012, when he was appointed to oversee coverage in the new Sunday editions.
tweets
Can’t watch any more Question Time tonight. These people are living in a fools’ paradise. #bbcqt Night all.
calls YES supporters fools
Have the BBC ever done this before? We’re not a bias outfit at all so shut up, vote no, pay your licence fee
link to twitter.com
This guy has been given a lot of stick. However, what he says is in fact the only message BetterTogether give us in their very limited positive case for the Union. Everything else BT say is negativity about Independence.
Here we have a well presented case for what Great Britain and Britishness is. History, power, war, gingoism. Go forth carrying a large stick!
It will be incredibly sad if Scots don’t get their heads out of the sand and reject this once and for all!
@Maybolebuddie
Derek Bateman in his latest internet radio broadcast interviewed the Sunday Herald editor who told him he thought another paper was close to coming out for Yes. So you may be right. I agree that they have been publishing some extremely balanced pieces of late.
I expect they will be disgusted by Ed’s refusal to back the strikers in any way at all, along with the suspicions of the paedophile ring in the Establishment in London.
IF the Record do switch it will be a major blow to SLAB. Murdoch may not be far behind with the Sun as well. Always likes to back a winner does the Digger and I think that will be key.
I just hope they come out soon enough to make a difference amongst No inclined SLAB voters.
Sorry to go off topic but this article for the daily rag is disgraceful
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Also watched this last night. Head in hands moment with the gentleman’s rant of “spilling blood”. The BT plants in the audience were so obvious.
But slightly O/T but still about last nights show.
The business guy from Orion group, who kept butting in when Ricky or Joan were talking, got a real fright when he said “this is increasingly an anti English debate” ( near the end of the show), and he was roundly talked down with a couple of people berating him, he quickly changed the subject. Twat!!
Also on the part where intimidation and threats are made pointing more to YES side, by two of the BT plants, why did no-one mention the internet abuse giving to Mr and Mrs Weir by Galloway and his BT chums??
@Stu. One of the highlights of my discussions with No voters is the look you get after dropping a few examples of the truth to counter the lies they are being told. It is like the children’s game where you are told to think about anything apart from a blue horse, and no matter what you do all how can think about is a blue horse. The little snippets of the truth insinuate themselves into the brain and the next time you meet them, they want more information.
@ Nana Smith, that’s the Torquil Crichton rebuttal to surgeon Dr Philippa Whitford who he clearly does not approve of. These media dudes are like little dictators strutting around newsrooms and they do do selfies with the audience now, if you vote no and pay their licence fee too
link to twitter.com
All credit to Ricky Ross in trying to ignore answering the mans rant ( theres a mental issues with that guy ) but to return to him a 2nd time was reprehensible,he has to live in that community, & doesent need the attention.
For me it wasn’t so much that the ‘More than Eccentric” character was raving wildly about his passion for Scotland remaining with uKOK.
They started the programme by stating this would be last one in Scotland before the Referendum (or words to that effect)
Now you’d think, if this was the case they WOULD have had a panel of Politicians, business folk maybe, and other panellists. People still have questions that need answered for them. Instead we got an ex rugby internationalist, a pop star, an agony aunt, and a wealthy Business man – each who has their own agenda, and can undoubtedly speak passionately about their reasons for voting yes/no.
This show needed politicians. They have the facts and figures at the tip of their tongue ready to use at every opportunity. There were so many times that the odd fact about that Gideon’s cuts are only to get worse(as highlighted by John H), pensions will be ok, we will remain in the EU, the OBR is a Tory Publishing House churning out our all sorts of Fiction, the Sun will still Shine, I’ll still not want to get up in the morning and go to work etc, etc..
I just think it was a disservice with the producers choosing a Layman’s panel – although the pannel have every right to voice their views. Just maybe on a different show. I feel this should have been the full political panel with facts/opinions from those in elected power. It’s not the organ grinder I want to hear from.
Doug Daniel says
You are right Dougie, when you see the tweets, and some of the contributes calling this guy, “The STAR of the Show”, things take a cynical turn.
While I think the guy was genuine, he has probably been this way during selection, and the powers to be would say ” come with me you will do fine”. Yup, designed to go viral.
There are no depths to which they will not go.
The frothing Unionist was not drunk. He’s from Nairn and regularly stands in the street and shouts at the Yes stall.
I agree he sums up the Union campaign though, barely coherent and clinging onto the past. Unfortunately everyone is talking about this guy instead of the coherent and eloquent points made by everyone else. This also sums up the Unionist campaign, distracting the ekectorate and not wanting them to get involved…
Your right Stu, it isn’t funny. However, even though the old buffoon has obvious ‘issues’, if you willingly stick your head above the parapet, then you have to take what’s coming.
What really isn’t funny is Dimbleby choosing him, & then returning. I can imagine they had a right good laugh about him afterwards.
Got anything to say about Camerons lot siphoning off £1bn of what should have been public money ?
Viewed in trepidation but Ricky and Joan were rather good. Scott Hastings lost after his scripted intro was finished and Savage as expected muttering about currency off topic even though he stated he operates in multiple other “foreign” countries. Amazed this is the last effort on QT by beeb to cover indy. Suspicious beeb put up the poor man twice to incite trolls but appears only beeb insiders doing this. Nos in audience less and less clapping and enthusiasm as show went on. Headline stories today suggest I entered a wormhole during sleep and ended up back in 1979. Are they really playing that soundtrack again, weve got no oil we are all doomed…
heedtracker
Did you notice this morning when Naughtie reported on the latest news regarding our EU membership, he quoted their neutral observer in Europe, UKIP Scottish MEP, David Coburn.
Now you cant get more fair and balanced than that. Well you could, but that is not how BBC Scotland do things.
They also done a good news story regarding the power cable getting laid in the Highlands that will increase renewable energy output.
Pity they put it on at 8.40am when most listeners have turned their radios off and are at work.
The show starts at 6am and it took 2hours 40mins to air this story. They do the same when interviewing someone representing the Scottish Government.
Do you know when it is peak listening time are for GMS?
This old soldier was certainly genuine IMO. I have met many like him. He has survived what he has endured and the words are to be reckoned with.
He says that his father did not survive in WW1 as my English grandfather did. Perhaps this is not a coincidence. The number of Scottish survivors of WW1 was hugely disproportionately less than the number of survivors from elsewhere in UK. There is a lot of evidence that this was not a fluke of statistics.
Tom
The “businessman” sneeringly referred to using the “Groat or summin” and got off with the lie that Scotland would be reneging on it’s debt so it would be difficult to borrow and the interest rates on borrowing would be huge.
He spoke about the hard world of finance.
Well, in the hard world of finance, the lender will look at the name on the bond and see “The United Kingdom”, and it is there they will look for repayment, not Scotland. Scotland has successfully paid more than its share of the interest on the debt and so has a defacto credit history and should not have any trouble if indeed it choses to borrow money.
john lyons says:
This also sums up the Unionist campaign, distracting the ekectorate and not wanting them to get involved…
Indeed. When you can’t win an argument, throw a dead sheep onto the middle of the table. You know from then on that will be the only topic of discussion! (BTW, not suggesting the old guy is a sheep!)
Maybe there were hoping for a Cyber cluster tweet of abuse against the old bugger?
More cyber-bullying?
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
Make no mistake, the choice of who to pick from the audience is very deliberate. I was on one of these things myself once, chaired by Jonathan Dimbleby, and was left in no doubt whatsoever. The knew exactly what they were going to get.
Interestingly, one of the BBC team tweeted a photo of the guy last night. His name’s Nigel, apparently. It was a photo taken in daylight, with his wife and someone else who might have been a son I suppose. And in it he was wearing the same clothes as in the programme. Almost certainly, it was a photo taken earlier yesterday, in the run-up to the debate. Taken by the BBC.
That’s not normal. They don’t usually collect posed snapshots of audience members with their families before these programmes are recorded. They knew what they had, they knew he was going to come over all outrageous, and they were ready with the publicity shots.
What does that say? That they were giving Yes a free gift? Or that they were setting him up for a monstering by the cybernats so they could then portray him as a nice normal old citizen who was being abused online?
didn’t have time to read all the comments so wouldn’t be surprised if others have made this point but I’m sure lots of us have family who died in British wars. My Uncle died in the second world war; two generations before, several died in the first world war. I can’t speak to them now except maybe in a seance but I’d like to think they’d tell me that they didn’t fight and die for the kind of country we’re currently living in. I hope they wouldn’t say: your unquestioning loyalty is to the British state; if it demands you live in poverty and squalor, consider it an honour.
Perhaps the new narrative is to be too wee, too poor, too cognitively dissonant. Did they focus on someone with views that are outwith the views of most ordinary No voters so they could somehow show up what Scotland would have to work with after a Yes vote?
Will they highlight the Orange Order in this fashion, maybe even their ‘walk’ through Edinburgh?
Is this a new tactic: look, see, you’re all a pencil case short of a sharpener?
We all know No voters and they all know Yes voters, and we must all stick together against this sort of crap.
Didn’t see last night’s programme because I don’t watch BBC, and in any case why should I listen to any thing that Scott Hastinge had to sayabout my future? He and his brother were good rugby players—end of story.
Dimbleby sounds like the pompous git he’s become over the years.
Hugely exploitative of QT to allow the old soldier to be ‘used’….shame on them! Sure BT wouldn’t be entirely happy either, this is the sort of thing, like the involvement of the OO, which pushes soft no’s and undecided away from them.
Liked the non politicians panel – indicative of the spread of the yes campaign. Alan Savage was abysmal…if he had mentioned currency one more time!!! argh. Well deserved the ridicule for his ‘english’ comment at the end. Scott Hasting was ‘Tim, nice but dim’ Only wish the panel had taken apart the comments re the OBR report and reneging on debt we don’t officially have.
Just to clarify Orion Engineering are an agency making money by skimming a percentage from people they place as contractors. I was one once upon a time.
link to orionjobs.com
Parasites!
The fact that Bio-Dimbleby actually told the panelist to argue against those points as if somehow this screaming lunatic in the audience actually had any, was frankly an insult to the debate.
Didn’t the BBC Trust recently tell them to stop bringing on cranks and treating them as if they have a valid argument?
Just to clear up, did the boy in the video ACTUALLY fight in a war? Or was he just saying his family fought in it?
He looked old and certainly, we’ve been in enough wars for him to partake in one, if he did, then why didn’t he mention it? (I’ve a funny feeling why)
If he didn’t, then he is even more full of it.
@Robert Kerr, I work at one of the agencies and we are no more parasites than the new Wood Group in-house agency, Altablue, which is registered in Jersey for tax reasons.
This is the same wood group which doesn’t pay tax. Many contractors prefer to work through agencies, so before slating us as parasites, perhaps consider both sides, as you’ve done with the indy ref.
Meanwhile, somewhere in a kitchen in Inverness….
“No poppet, the Sky+ didnt work and NO, you cant watch your Papa on the iPlayer”
Next Question Time from proud Scotbutland link to youtube.com
Did he fight for his blessed union? This YES voter did
link to thecourier.co.uk
chalks – indeed, I’m not sure he actually said HE had been in a war, just (I think) his grandad and his great uncle. So his stuff about giving his life and blood for the union was just the equivalent of a spotty teenager sitting on their computer tweeting “y dont u come an say that 2 mi face?” at someone who’s shown them up online.
(Having said that, when he talked the second time, I was genuinely thinking “I hope they checked he didn’t have any weapons on him before letting him in…”)
Not sure if this has been posted.
New record high (41%) Yes in Survation.
With Don’t Knows removed, it works out as…
Yes 47%
No 53%
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Doug Daniel 8.37, noo see whit you’ve gonin done.Rev at 8.41 we’re entering another phase of Cybernat abuse of the Bbc Q/T editor, count to 3 Rev then let it RIP.
O/T Don’t they re-read what they write ? Freeloading ffs.
This article is a perfect example of how the London-centric media STILL don’t get what’s going on up here.
“The campaign has been a bad-tempered one, marked by growing Scottish anger at English complacency and indifference while English resentment of Scottish whingeing and freeloading has risen: only a strong vote for the union will bury this issue.”
link to economist.com
The “proud highlander” is the common man’s Lord Admiral, your people’s Full General or the local pub’s Air Marshal designate.
All badged up & titled, puffing about past glories & championing the might of the British military as a singular force for good wrapped up in an iconic Butcher’s Apron.
This is the Britain, the NO camp are fighting to maintain. The financial chaos, inequality & corruption across the London based institutions are mere aberrations to be sorted out, always at the next general election.
Of course the pointless outcome of the Westminster elections invariably results in more of the same; the minions at Westminster earning honours, titles & privilege in exchange for continued approval of the corrupt institutions that sit under a common brand; Britain with it’s passive Queen, open door palaces & perceived democracy.
Meanwhile, the BBC & the British media in general propagate this benign vision even when our armed forces are bombing brown people in obscure places for even more obscure reasons. And to enforce your support, you are told almost daily about threats from nasty looking people wearing turbans & face masks. The fear of foreigners is a powerful tool eloquently used by the British State & it’s supporters to prop up the idea of an honourable society that must be protected, at all costs.
Now, faced with a threat to destabilize the status quo from those seeking Scottish independence, the British state is flexing its diplomatic muscle to frighten Scots into accepting two key arguments.
The first is that Scotland is just simply incapable of running its own affairs & the second is that Britain offers a place of security in an apparently unstable world.
That it has always been unstable matters not. Nor does the fact that Scotland is a resource rich country with a small population which when compared to other countries of similar size, could quite happily operate as a separate sovereign independent nation.
Scotland’s drive for independence is ultimately a stab at the sovereignty of Britain. Consequently, you, me & everyone else is being lied to every single day in an attempt to frighten us into voting no.
The “highlander” needs no encouragement to be frightened. He’s petrified of losing what he believes to be his reality. Last night was like the moment in The Matrix when Neo asks if he is dead. Quite the opposite he is told. But when confronted with the real world, he wretches & considers if it’s worth going back to the Construct. In the world of the matrix, you get a job, a nice house & a society to believe in, even though it’s all completely made up. A vision of permanent satisfaction has been created to fool the citizens into accepting the apparent realities of the Construct.
Like Neo, many of us seeking independence swallowed the red pill many months ago if not years past. But there are others who are too frightened to face the reality of our real world; austerity, corruption, greed, inequality, food banks, illegal wars, spying, surveillance, nepotism & state criminality.
You can only offer people a choice in the end by presenting the truth. And that’s all we have really, the truth. No big stick, no fancy weapons, no establishment muscle.
But if I recall the ending of the trilogy, a truce was eventually reached so that those who fought to maintain their reality, could do so in peace.
Nine weeks to go folks. Make it happen.
“TheGreatBaldo says:
11 July, 2014 at 8:05 amDon’t the BBC screen the QT audience to ensure balance?
If so, then someone at the Beeb thought he was fine to go on air…”
Having attended a Question Time audience, the answer is no, not in the sense you are thinking of.
You are asked beforehand whether you are a member of a political party, or otherwise whether you support a paprticular party or are neutral.
There is no screen test or any other suitability test, If you are interested, you apply to go. The unionist fellow clearly did that and stuck his hand up for a chance to speak.
Unless something which is slanderous is uttered, there is virtually nothing cut, no retakes inserted. It is one of the few programmes where they may try to manage the balance of the audience but they can’t manage what comes out of peoples mouths once they are picked to speak.
The man in the video was an embarrassment to himself and his family. Unfortunately, he was also an embarrassment to the rest of us. This imbecile was chosen in order to ridicule the great and important debate we are having about our country’s future – as exemplified by the glee with which the odious Mr Dimbleby required Ricky Ross to respond to the insanity spouted by the “Highlander”. Only good thing is that any No voters watching might reconsider and D/Ks will definitely switch to Yes.
@Defo
re
link to economist.com
Its hard to read that web address without picturing a forlorn drunken abusive husband slumped in “his chair” mumbling and begging as he hears footsteps in the hall heading for the door with a loaded suitcase being dragged behind them, destined never to return.
As the brilliant Handsome Family would sing :
Listen to me, Butterfly, there’s only so much wine, you can drink in one life, and it will never be enough, to save you from the bottom of your glass.
Just read the huffpost article about this guy and the related twitter glee. What the **** is going on? Is the strategy now to show how passionate No supporters are? The way they are using this old guy is incredible and it makes me terribly sad.
@chalks says: chalks says: 11 July, 2014 at 8:04:
Simplest response Ricki Ross could have taken would have been simply, it isn’t about national identity, British Gov have said you’d still retain British Citizenship,”
That, chalks, was exactly what I yelled at the screen. Then I noted the raised right arm throughout the tirade and the dedication of his life to retain the UK and the claim Jesus was on the side of the UK.
It was quite obviously a BBC inspired propaganda exercise. This was born out by the subsequent comic programming on the Neil show and the clip of the Smith woman they showed.
Not normally watching TV I’ll have to rely upon others to tell if this is a BBC or even a Better Together trend towards ridicule. Perhaps in an effort to trivialise and negate the entire referendum debate.
Grendel – according to someone on Twitter who was at Question Time, he displayed similar behaviour before the recording began, so it would have been quite clear he was “a bit of a character”. They knew fine what they were getting when they chose him to speak.
Daytime Social media folk….are Better Together and friends in hiding today after last night Question Time and recent Poll results or is big Blair Awful playing the Bluff card of confidence?
Whoda thunk it, BBC exploiting vulnerable Scots eh?
Same pattern used by C4 Reese Mogg report a while back where they interviewed twa Dundonians (obviously clueless, pissed or high) – they also reinterviewed this pair much to the delight of Moggie who seemed to be enjoying the whole pitiful cherade.
His accent sounds like someone from Ulster. That’s not Highland’s surely?
Anyway, there is no passion here. Ricky is passionate, as are the other panellists, I would guess. This man isn’t.
It’s fanaticism, even extremism. The man is very real and serious. Listen to the delivery of these words…
– “I will take a stand to keep the United Kingdom together. I will give my life for my country”.
What sort of stand? Scary stuff. The police should be winging their way around to his house with a search warrant.
Alan Savage betting on people not having looked at the white paper with his out and out lie “one page on finance”
I mean really whether you agree with what’s in them or not he’s got to be congratulated on describing two chapters headed “Scotland’s finance” and “Finance and the economy”.as a single page.
That’s not coming from someone who’s sure of his argument.
@Robert Peffers
@chalks
If there’s a Yes vote, all these BritNats get to keep most of the precious UK intact. They can keep their UK citizenship. They can keep their Tory governments and their UKIP.
If there’s a No vote, we get nothing, in fact the changes which will surely come mean we’ll get less than nothing!
Does anyone agree that Dimbleby wasn’t sufficiently clued-up on the whole debate to properly chair it. An informed chair would have not let Alan Savage’s incorrect OBR, debt and currency comments pass.
For the record, I don’t believe in active BBC bias, but I do believe in lack of competence and institutional, unknowing bias.
Interesting television, but would it have had enough meat in it to inform or change anyone’s opinion?
PS you should only take ex army chaps seriously when they retain some sort of adherence to Army traditions and self discipline. Still he’s probably taking a stance against Digger (Old school Inverness barber) retiring.
ahem why are we discussing some old fart who got his 5 mins of fame courtesy of the BBC,this is pure misdirection people so what he jumped up and down and had a rant its his right to do so,personally i think we would be better to just ignore this as it was a definite plant to get all us nasty cybernats fuming ,seems to have worked quite well.
I think you may have been hoodwinked by this ,especially as the UK parliament are about to push through a piece of legislation that has had no debate ,no amendments and no scrutiny in other words an entirely undemocratic act backed by the 3 main westminster parties.
@bookie from hell says: 11 July, 2014 at 8:48 am :
quotes The BT Mantra, “My type of Scot what a legend-#highlander ‘I AM BRIITSH FOREVER WE WILL NEVER CHANGE WE WILL KEEP OUR UNION TOGETHE”.
Indeed, but the obvious facts seem to have escaped both the Old Highland Soldier, The BBC and UKIP, that even if there had never been a United Kingdom the Highlander will have been British all his life whether or not Scotland becomes independent.
Simply the United Kingdom is British. It is not, though, all of Britain. AS are the Republic of Ireland and the three non-UK Crown protectorates.
Lest we forget:
QT and Dimbleby were only interested in boosting the flagging viewer figures of their second-rate prog within England, Hence, they find a crazy Scot to ridicule.
It is not as though almost every village in England does not have their local “eccentrics” who are deemed to be “touched”.
Funnily enough, the village idiots of England never get a nationwide audience via QT?
I gave QT a wide berth after their first few rigged debates on the Independence of Scotland.
BBC Propaganda is flourishing when all you guys ridicule a fool who needs serious psychiatric help or a boot back into the 21st century.
I pity the poor Yes canvasser who knocks on his door.
Colin,
Very good. The imagery is hilarious!!!
It looks like he was wearing a shooting gilet.
Now, if he has a firearms certificate…Jesus indeed.
A little Of topic but a good read about how its better to lift everyone up, than keep everyone down..
link to topinfopost.com
Nigel Kirk-Hanlin
link to inverness-courier.co.uk
“Nairn portrait artist Nigel Kirk Hanlin said voting yes would be like “spitting on the grave of my mother’s father who fought for this country in the British Army”.
he served in Glasgow Academy cadets
Is this guy really saying his relatives ( and mine) only died for Britain?
Is the No camp happy to have this view, watched across the whole of Britain represent them?
The No campaign have to start answering why last week we had people marching in military style uniforms carrying their No banners , Alistair Darling quoting Nazi slogans and last night we had a man on national TV talking about blood and dying?
This is a democratic debate taking place in Scotland, there is no reason for this threatening behaviour, Better Together seem happy for these people to be representing them and until they release a statement saying otherwise, my impression will be of intimidation and bullying .There is no place for this in 2014
Have just seen a much more appropriate picture on twitter of our loud Highlander. pic.twitter.com/jcZAfbNjaa
Derek M 11.05am
Spot on Derek, the “Snoopers Charter” is to be voted on next week and needs to be highlighted.
The three main Party leaders held secret talks and have all agreed that these new spying laws should become law,
even although the EU lawyers are telling them that it will be against people’s Human Rights if they pass them into law in the vote next week.
A Gurn from Nurn
link to gurnnurn.com
“ahem why are we discussing some old fart who got his 5 mins”
It makes us feel smug and clever and we are of course a condensing bunch who like to have our prejudices confirmed now and again 😉
In reality of course there are a number of ‘passonate’ types on both sides of the debate that won’t weigh up the pros and cons and make reasoned arguments to persuade and debunk.
It is of course a bit mean to ridicule this guy but his attitude is no different to the other extremists that the media is so hysterical about as some one else said if he were advocating Jihad he’d be all over the Front pages.
Having admittedly only seen the first part of this poor man’s rant on the ideo link I was still rather disappointed with the “no-like” quality of some responses. Obviously disturbed in more than one way he should not have been used by the BBC to provide “entertainment” and equally should have received a gentler touch from Wingers.
If he claims the name of Jesus then a simple reminder that Jesus said “whatever you have done to the least of mine you have done to me” should have given even his upset mind pause to think. And as for any military history – stating the sheer horrendous number of Scots, High & Low who have provided and continue to provide cannon fodder for English wars might also have cut through the obscenity of “the proud Scottish military tradition” that has been preached into Scottish ears for so long.
No matter how wrongheaded, any passionate person makes for the best “convert” as having finally, like Paul on the road to Damascus, having comprehended the utter error of his ways, he/she is uniquely qualified to convince others. Mocking/talking down at people – no matter how ‘justified’ – may make the mocker feel superior but seldom brings about a change of heart and mind in the other.
Let Yes be focused hard and clear but at the same time respectful of others even if they do not seem to be worthy of that respect.That can make obvious the difference between the two camps and the vastly different vision they have for Scotland.
Doug D says:
Does anyone agree that Dimbleby wasn’t sufficiently clued-up on the whole debate to properly chair it. An informed chair would have not let Alan Savage’s incorrect OBR, debt and currency comments pass.
I’m certainly with you on this point Doug. Our friend and bastion of the Inverness community, Alan Savage, who I suspect actually hails from Yorkshire/Sheffield area, was the most persistent mumbler and interrupter during Joan’s responses. Yet when Joan tried only once to interject with him, Dimbelby stopped her in her tracks and said “let him speak”. I nearly kicked the telly at that point.
Not the best QT by a long chalk and whilst I cringed at poor Nigel the ‘Highlander’, it was more of a compassionate cringe rather than a partisan reaction. I actually think I may have met the man at some point…
Once again, the BBC have shown themselves to present what should be one of the best main-stream political programmes as a sham with clear disinterest in the matter at hand. I mean, why try to present a reasoned debate when you can pick on a poor old man (twice), sure in the knowledge that he will be the subject of a viral outpouring of mockery. Shame on them!
Nigel Kirk Hanlin reminds me a bit of Robert Watson, a Glasgow chap whose specialist subject is the Covenanters and the Protestant religion.
Professor Tom Gallagher is equally colourful in the flesh.
More to be pitied – and ideally, avoided – than scolded.
@Fiona says: 11 July, 2014 at 8:48 am
“He is a nutter: there are nutters on all sides of every question. What is sad is that even a supposedly “heavyweight” programme is prepared to rely on the distasteful interest people have in visiting bedlam to laugh at the inmates, for viewing figures.”
Well no, Fiona, this tactic of the BBC only highlights the total brainwashing that the military wing of The British Empire has successfully used since long before the BBC were invented. Need Proof?
Here is a modern dictionary definition of very old military term : –
blighty noun, plural blighties. British Slang.:
1 – England as one’s native land; England as home: We’re sailing for old Blighty tomorrow.
2 – A wound or furlough permitting a soldier to be sent back to England from the front.
3 – Military leave.
Origin: 1885–90; Hindi bil?yat? the country (i.e., Great Britain), variant of wil?yat? vilayet
Note that although it comes from the period in history when it was mainly Scottish regiments that were holding The British Raj for The United Kingdom the definition refers to the home country as England.
This form of brain washing was going on even before the Treaty of Union. Remember that after the 1688, “Glorious Revolution”, in England the line was that the Independent kingdom and parliament of Scotland were, (and still are), referred to as, “The Jacobite Rebellion”. The independent Scots could not be rebels as you cannot rebel against a monarch not your own.
We YES supporters are now still being treated by them as rebels too.
The old man’s relatives didn’t fight for freedom of choice?
The old man’s unionist outburst was pitiful and ultimately laughable.
It will benefit the Yes campaign.
The guy on QT was a bit of a loose screw. As an ex soldier the regiment doesn’t really mean that much unless you’re an officer (aka Wupert or Wodney). For the average soldier your world is your ten man infantry section and occasionally the platoon. The regiment has about the same relevance to your life as the doings of the EU to a harassed housewife trying to bring up two kids in a rundown housing estate.
Doug, your point about the pre-recording rehearsal is well made.
When I was on the Jonathan Dimbleby programme (before the 1997 referendum) I was there as an SNP member. We were all instructed exactly where to sit, and it was clear Dimbleby had a seating plan in front of him.
The rehearsal took the form of a debate about the banning of foxhunting. It was more interesting that the actual broadcast. The pro-hunting advocate made two mutually contradictory points, so I stuck my hand up, pointed this out, and asked him which was it. Was hunting intended to eliminate vermin, or provide jobs for country people? If the latter, rather than elminating the vermin, presumably they would have to conserve them. Which was it? Of course it was only a sham debate so I didn’t get an answer.
Then the real show started, which was absolutely live. It was boring as hell, because Alex Salmond had had to call off and there was no independence advocate on the panel. I sat on my hands for most of the show. Near the end there were several people practically turning themselves outside in to be called to speak, and Dimbleby was ignoring them. Then someone on the panel said how terrible it would be if Scottish votes tipped what would have been an English Tory majority into a Labour majority.
I decided to put my hand up. I swear it hadn’t got past the level of my shoulder before Dimbleby was on me like a ferret, calling me to speak. He’d had his eye on me the entire programme, waiting for that. Obviously. (I didn’t say much as the programme was in its last few minutes. If it had been earlier I might have said a bit more.)
I like to think in that case he was looking for a sensible, well-argued point from a Scottish contributor (the show was being filmed in London). Fair enough. But what was going on last night was a different matter. They found a fruitcake and encouraged him to behave outrageously on camera, so they could showcase him to publicise the programme.
So much for serious political debate. How have they fallen so low?
Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t think the BBC were wrong to show the old soldier guy. He has a point of view and he’s entitled to express it. No doubt he represents the views of others. I would like to think there are not too many of them, but they are entitled to say their piece.
Of course whether his rant helped the No cause is another matter. I’m a committed Yes voter, but if I were a DK, I’m pretty sure I would not want to be associated with the views expressed by the old guy and so I would be more likely to shift away from No and towards Yes.
I don’t think No Better Together Thanks will be very pleased that one of their supporters with such strange views was given so much air time. In the minds of the sane voters, they will associate this guy’s lunacy with the No campaign.
So overall, I think this was good for Yes.
@TD.
in a normal sense i would agree with your last post, but when you look at darling, mcternan, carmichael and the likes, the guy on QT actually believes his stuff.
Does that make him better or worse than those i mention ?
geeo
I think it makes him better. I don’t think anyone could doubt the sincerity of his beliefs, strange though they are. The common factor amongst the usual suspects you mention is that they all display a level of cynicism that is quite disturbing. They know the truth of the matter and they know what is best for Scotland. But they also have their own agendas and are prepared to sacrifice the interests of Scotland to meet those agendas.
@frazer allan whyte says: 11 July, 2014 at 11:39 am:
“Having admittedly only seen the first part of this poor man’s rant on the ideo link I was still rather disappointed with the “no-like” quality of some responses.
Oh! Come on! This was an old brain washed soldier so blinded by the propaganda fed to him all his life that he is not able to realise the Scottish Regiment he belonged to was done away with by the very entity he is pledging to lay his life down for. Not to mention loyalty to a non-existant God figure. Jihad anyone?
Such people can indeed be very dangerous. I wonder just how little it would take to arm him and convince him he should take down a high level figure in the name of The Union and his personal Jesus figure?
It’s weird that so many people are referring to Nigel as an “old soldier”. He said nothing about having been in the military, only that relatives of his had fought in WW1. Someone else in the thread above has identified him as a portrait painter!
It has also been pointed out that although he sounded Northern Irish this was an artefact, he is genuinely local, son of a local doctor, and someone suggested that he had been a bit strange all his life, if not to the point of an actual mental health diagnosis.
Don’t be too hard on the old guy, he was very nervous, wound himself up to make his point and lost it at the crucial moment. It happens a lot with folk who don’t speak publicly. He’s wrong of course, Independence will be the salvation of Scotland but he’s entitled to his opinion.
I think it’s truer to say they people were fighting against the Third Reich, rather than fighting for Britain.
This whole edition of QT seems to have been designed to trivialise the referendum.
On the final QT before the referendum it is a disgrace that there was no political representation from both sides. Questioners definitely seemed to be weighted heavily towards the No side, precious little balance and allowed to trot out questions which have been comprehensively answered many times before. Nobody learned anything new from this travesty and i’m sure that was the intent of the BBC.
Dimbleby seemed to be constantly interrupting RR & JB. The Scouse business man had no manners whatsoever, constantly interrupting whilst he was given the courtesy of no interruptions.
So there we have it – just another day at the ‘impartial BBC’.
Morag
You are right – in the clip at the top of the page he does not explicitly state he was a soldier. But he did say something like “Highland Regiment, British Army. I will die for my country in the name of Jesus”.
I think we can be forgiven for thinking he was an old soldier and I suspect he would be quite pleased with us making that assumption.
link to wordpress.com
Written quickly – child in tow. Sorry for typos.
link to rosaalba.wordpress.com (and incorrect link).
I watched that guy through my fingers. To be honest, I think he has some mental health issues and should have been screened out by the programme.
@ chitterinlicht
The reason we have not had another war is because of social economic integration/interdependency through the EU.
The reason we have not had another war is because Germany and Italy became democracies and the western european democracies agreed to work together to rebuild their societies and countries. Social democracy is the foundation for the peace and the EC was one of the outcomes.
The best bit of that was the palpable beat after he’d bellowed “British forever! We will NEVER…” as he realised he had to think of something other than “surrender”.
I watched the whole show this morning and felt nothing but sympathy for an old man who knows his best days are behind him , but believes there’s one more fight in him. I dare say most of us get to fifty before we realise we’re not the folk we used to be. The BBC showed an old man rambling and that’s a shame. He has an opinion but his answers were way over the top.
If he’s an ex soldier then he’s not like any i know . We were and are proud to serve. Past battles are only reminders of who we lost not how we won. As an old or ex soldier he should be looking around and asking why are there food banks, why there are few jobs for the young, Why are the govt abusing the disabled and infirm, why are wages so low?
I’m an ex soldier.I have come to conclusion this is my final battle. Like the old boy am just as passionate about my country as he is . I just believe my country is Scotland and she should be a free independent nation. The future can then be passed on to our children who will do a damn sight better job than we have.
And in 10 years time i can celebrate a battle for the first time. With no casualties only bruised feelings and pride that i helped give my country the freedom and rights she deserves.
I am not alone with those thoughts. I shared a pint last week in Edinburgh and found so many with the same drive and energy as me. It made me proud to be part of something huge. It made me proud to be Scottish.
We will win. absolutely certain. YESSERS are everywhere and we grow every day. It’s our time.
Apart from the planted comedian, it was a good QT. The negativity of the NO and the positivity of the YES came over. Ricky and Jane got over many good points. Scotland should be a wealthy more equal country. Mr Hasting is a Tory. He’s alright, Jack. Th entrepreneur who made his money from the Oil industry came across as England agin Scotland mentality. The audience disgreed.
Portillo looks terrified at Tommy. Where has Portillo been? The subsidised argument has been disproven many times. Diane was pragmatic. Neil was twa faced as usual.
Only 3% swing needed now for the Referendum. Bring it on.
An ex-soldier was at a Blair Jenkins meeting.The soldier was at pains to point out the betrayal of Westminster as regards Scottish Defence and warned against trusting them. The military often can’t speak out because of the Official Secrets Act.
The 1WW three royal cousins fell out. Victoria’s grandchildren.
I feel a couple of positives can be taken from the program:
– The unfortunate man was being quite widely discussed on my facebook as it happened, which probably means more people were watching the program than expected.
– The largest audience reaction was to Alan Savage’s claim that the campaign was anti-English, with enough dissent expressed that both yes and no voices must have have not believed that. This is a positive because to an undecided it ought to cast doubt on all his other economic claims.
– Scott Hastings although delivering his car well and reasonably, didn’t really have much of a case to make and seemed to lost it a
Whoops. Here’s the last paragraph again. Must stop typing on this phone.
– Scott Hastings although delivering his case well and reasonably, didn’t really have much of a case to make and seemed to lose it a bit at the end.
Judging by the conversation going on behind me right now, Our new unionist pal has become a bit of a celeb eve amongst the not quite sure yets. He may have been the man that has unwittingly tipped the scales.
@TD.
I also agree it makes him better than the No politicians i mentioned.
Take Sam Galbraith..
Ex health minister yet quotes about ” british NHS to spread credence to his bullshoot propaganda exercise.
Who if the more dangerous person, an older guy with set beliefs (right or wrong) or an ex health secretary who KNOWS he is lying to the electorate ?
Not a hard one really, is it.
The Economist article for those short on time. And it is a proper, actual Economist article, really, and not a letter to the Editor..
..a 307-year-old union, which once ruled a third of humanity and still serves as a role-model to many, could be on the verge of dissolution..
First off, we invoke the Empire (yawn)
If the Scots vote to leave, they should of course be allowed to..
Eh? F**k off!
That is partly because we believe that a break-up would benefit nobody..
You have absolutely no idea of what’s going on here
As a result, the state spends around £1,200 more per head on Scots than on the average Briton..
Really? You’re still trotting out this line?
Some of the southern impositions that nationalists object to, such as a “bedroom tax” designed to nudge subsidised tenants out of unnecessarily large houses, are relatively trivial..
Trivial to London commentators maybe. And please let us know where these council mansions are
Nor does Britain’s political set-up deprive the Scots of power. The last two British prime ministers, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, were born north of the border. Scotland has a disproportionately large number of MPs at Westminster.
Yes, of course, the noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England
If Scotland were to push off, neither it nor residual Britain would have as much influence as they do today
No, actually we have zero influence today. Net gain for us.
There we are then. Next?
Robert Peffers – please remember that it is not winning the argument that wins votes but winning the person. The Scottish voter in question although highly problematic is nevertheless a Scottish voter and instead of winning points in an argument against him he needs to be won over.
Also kneejerk antireligious comments are less than helpful. You would be surprised perhaps to know how deeply offensive the Westminster governments treatment of the poor and disadvantaged is to Christians. From our perspective London has abolutely failed the test of protecting the poor and punishing the wicked.And its policy of dividing families on the basis of income while rich speculators come and go at will is utterly repugnant.
No Christian would expect independence to usher in the millenium but much of what Westminster is about is nothing less than satanic. The necessity for foodbanks, sanctions due to non-appearance due to terminal illness, nuclear weapons, wars of politicians’pride – we know full well where such things come from and we know the consequences if Scotland even passively goes along with such evil.
Scotland taking responsibility for itself is not merely an economic or political choice it is a moral imperative.
“I’m an ex soldier.I have come to conclusion this is my final battle. Like the old boy am just as passionate about my country as he is . I just believe my country is Scotland and she should be a free independent nation. The future can then be passed on to our children who will do a damn sight better job than we have.”
YESGUY, I am ex Navy, but beyond that point every single word you say works for me save that I am a bit younger than you and this is unlikely to be my last fight.
If we achieve independence our children should gain a measure of self belief that this country can be better. The confidence that will ride the shockwave a Yes vote will create will be overpowering and whether we have to struggle a few years to get it right or not the belief will remain that we CAN make it better for everyone.
Judging by some of your comments, it seems I’m not the only one worried about false flag attacks designed to cow the Scots into a “no” vote. This guy is perfect for the “mad, lone assassin”-type fall-guy a la Sirhan Sirhan or that perennial favourite, Mr. Oswald, both seen publicly preaching their message before the act that changed policy for ever. To the detriment of all. Be suspicious if he runs amok with a deer-rifle. Be VERY suspicious.
The formula for the make-up of the panel usually includes a “fruitcake” of some kind. There’s a list of them, regular BBC go-to’s who can be relied upon for some “oh aren’t we oh so eccentric, us British” piece of simplistic, passionately expressed but not too controversial opinion. Nice wee earner for these professional contrarians.
Different type of panel last night. Rustics from the edge of empire. Much the same formula though so needed some one from the floor, temporarily elevated from common and humble obscurity to play court jester and fou du roi and what better character than a wide-eyed rasputin like highlander for this one off special to amuse and delight the metropolitans bewildered by our provincial politics.
They’re making fun of him. I don’t like that one bit. It wouldn’t have been so obvious if they hadn’t gone back for seconds. Maybe they were hoping for an outburst of evil cybernattery against him. Either way, it’s not good. But Stu has a point — this says far more about the way the BT campaign operates (as evidenced by some of the more extreme unionist websites) than it does about the individual.
After initally thinking the guy was going to charge down the steps with a bayonet, I actually felt quite sorry for him and the BBC are a disgrace for broadcasting it.
An effective rebuttal to these “my father/grandfather fought in the war” types I find is to point out that all we are proposing is an end to the Union of Parliaments – your dad didnae fight Hitler to maintain that, he fought for his life and for the lives and property of those around him, and fought alongside many other nationalities doing the exact same thing. Britain will remain intact, its just the political union thats going.
The other big eye-opener was the sheer ignorance of the so-called business leader and the stupidity of his arguments – boasting that your business operates in 28 currency zones but won’t be able to cope with currency “uncertainty” in Scotland is the type of drivel typical of the business figures who adore the Union and try and use business jargon to try to fit their personal agenda. The entertainer next to him and most young folk in the crowd had a far better grasp of the facts and figures than he did.
Dimblebey was up to his usual tricks again, allowing the No panelists to interrupt constantly but clamping down hard when there was a slight hint of it from the Yes side.
But overall Im quite happy that the last episode of this Punch n Judy show before the referendum cast Yes in a very good light and surely must have got a lot of No voters thinking hard and Dont-knows firmly making their minds up.
Dear Wings over Somerset,
Got to laugh at the suggestions that this guy is ‘the purest distillation of a no voter’, etc.
I’m reminded of a few days ago on this site, when I brought up the recent bomb threat against better together. That got a very different response: ‘one bad apple’, ‘lone nutter’, even ‘unionist conspiracy’. XD
I contrast, this guy is a very old man from a different era. Unionism and nationalism contended on very different fronts then. Don’t forget that in his day, and even more recently, the SNP were not so much ‘tartan tories’ as something much, much darker.
So please, you do this debate, and yourselves, no favours when you paint your opponents with such a brush.
Regards,
Charlie M
I actually felt sorry for this old guy. I recognise that some people feel this way. I don’t understand it and I don’t accept this vision of the future for me and my children. But I do worry that some old folk in particular are going to be very worried and disoriented come 19/09 in the event on a yes vote.
But I’ll still be out there campaigning for it.
To Peter MacB.
Spot on my man. I’m 51 but have a few too many medical issues to fight past this one battle. None life threatening just a pain and wear and tear. I’m gonna be knackered after this ref.
But i leave the rest in good hands and i have confidence in you and the rest of Scotland to crack on and finish our journey. And it’s a joy to see so many involved in something so important. The Scots have woken and we have a job to do.
“If not us who? If not now when”
IT’S OUR TIME.
Wow two 👿 on both threads at the same time.
Must be doubling up on the shifts.
Have a good one Charlie 🙂
I wonder if his grandfather did fight and die for Britain. This was a married man who might have volunteered to fight for King and Country but was more likely to have been conscripted but if it was King and Country what was the country in his mind that he fought for?
Unless Mr Hanlin has proof eg letters or Great Aunt Mary said, that his grandfather thought he was fighting for “Britain” then Mr Hanlin is using his grandfather as a projection and reinforcement for his own views and not as evidence for family views in 1914 which he is following.
@CharlieMurphy.
Since you are referencing the “bomb threat” allegation, you will recall being reminded that those alleged to be responsible have previously threatened to kill A.Salmond..
The SNP, where the supporters try to kill the leader…away and have a wee lie down eh!
Whyte The Patient says: The Scottish voter in question …instead of winning points in an argument against him he needs to be won over.
And how long do you think it will take?
End of this decade or the next?
His tombstone is already carved:
“Naw Isnae Jist Fir Christmas – It’s Forever!”
I met a man not unlike him while I was out canvassing. He was an older man, but he served in World War II, where he fought against “Nationalism,” and genuinely seemed to fear that the SNP would become the NSDAP in the event of independence. He seemed to truly believe that, for all the current government’s evil, it is still a lesser evil than Nationalism (he counted off a list of “nationalists”: Franco, Milosevic, Castro, Vargas, Salazar, etc).
I felt immense frustration building up – not least because I was canvassing, and so needed to get an accurate reflection of voters, not attempt to convince them (or at least not spend an hour arguing) – but also because I felt a supreme sadness. This government, so many governments before it, have engrained the “Nationalism is Dangerous” meme so profoundly that the mere spectre of it is enough to put up with Westminster’s fascism. I just have to wonder what it is these men were fighting for – was it to preserve a comparatively liberated way of life, or was it My Country for Good or Ill? Because if it’s the latter, what in God’s name makes you any better than a Scottish Nationalist?
Tremendous anger I feel, but also tremendous sadness. Someone should’ve asked him why he would die for his country: is it because that’s what Proud Scots do, or because he genuinely believes maintaining the union is more important than thousands of people dying after having essential financial aid taken from them, or thousands more dying in illegal wars, or seeing innocent people tortured and tried in secret in a supposed democracy?
If nothing else, I find it bitterly hilarious that unionists on Twitter are praising his passion and enthusiasm. Anyone want to take a guess what the response would be if a Yes voter said “I was born in Inverness, I’m a passionate Highlander, and I love Scotland. I will take a stand to gain Scotland’s independence. I will give my life for my country as my grandfather did in the First World War, IN THE NAME OF JESUS”?
This is part of the great problem: the lies are just so profound that it can be very difficult to persuade people just how deep the lies go. It seems astounding how concerted it is, to the point where this site and others are compared with conspiracy theorists. Yet this isn’t theory, it’s practise. The McCrone report was covered up. Civil servants did suppress Scotland’s financial potential. SNP politicians were under surveilance by MI5.
So it’s easy to just dismiss No voters who continue to reject facts & figures, simply because it’s more believable that a “fringe minority” of Yes voters are lying or economical with the truth, than pretty much everything they know about their own nation was lying or economical with the truth.
I’m just glad the old boy doing all the shouting, wasn’t a yes voter, imagine if he began shouting Braveheart or William Wallace forever, it would have been splashed all over the unionist press and tv channels.
“Just a fortnight ago Mr Hanlin roused 10 people, including Moray Conservative councillor and MSP Mary Scanlon’s spokesman Douglas Ross and Scottish Labour Party prospective candidate Mike Robb, to a meeting at the Community Centre for a sing-song and a pro-Union rally.”
More here link to inverness-courier.co.uk
Oh Jeez, I’ve just been on the “British Unity” Vote no to independence and save the union facebook page. This guy is being touted as some kind of hero on there. Unbelievable.
I also feel sorry for him.
@geeo
Yes, the other nationalists, the SNLA. I wonder what set them off? Could it be that, looking at the polls, they’ve realised Salmond’s more moderate approach isn’t going to deliver them to the promised land, and that a spot of ‘tartan terror’ is in order?
It’s not just them, either. I’ve seen remarks from several self proclaimed ‘progressive’ yes supporters to the effect that they won’t accept a no vote, or that it would somehow be undemocratic.
The garden variety nationalists can’t just dismiss this tendency. It’s their grievance-mongering and myth-making that gives succour to it, as in the aftermath of the 1979 referendum.
Best,
Charlie
So Michelle Mone wont move South from a sense of grievance?
Charlie Murphy – what’s the ‘SNLA’ and what ‘set them off’ to do what? As you’ll see, I’m confused.
The SNLA, for fuck sake Charlie, fuck off eh.
CharlieM
To date that we only have Better Together’s word that some loon came into their office and said they should be bombed. Did no one think to take a smart phone picture or recording? On the other hand we have all seen and have preserved for posterity the Tweets and Facebook utterances that Yes folks need a bullet and Salmond should be assassinated.
Of course genuinely violent nutters are thankfully an exception (on both sides of the camp) but No relies rather more on the traditional sectarian Unionist vote than it would care to admit. I think it is perfectly fair to point out that the Orange Order, UKIP, SDL, BNP, various Loyalist factional wing nuts and the Tories all support Better Together. The odd one out in that ensemble is Labour.
Hi TJenny,
SNLA stands for ‘Scottish National Liberation Army’, and they are (or at least, they aspire to be) Scotland’s answer to the IRA. I was replying to a comment by geeo, in which he alluded to them (though not by name) as the group allegedly behind the recent bomb threat against Better Together.
Best,
Charlie
Charlie has a migraine:; I wonder what set them off?
Nothing set ‘them’ off.
They don’t exist except in your fevered imagination, a determined attempt to taint a nation’s grass roots movement as something ominous – which is exactly what you are.
You have no idea who was ‘behind the bomb’ threat – if that is what it was – but are happy to do the honours for HM UK Government and name names.
Charlie Murphy – thanks for replying. I’ve never heard of the SNLA, and hadn’t heard any mention of them in the, still to be proved it ever happened, bomb threat. As there are apparently oodles of cctv cameras in the area of said offence, it should be easy enough to prove and then charge said individual.
Until then, if it, the SNLA, exists, other than in someone head, let’s not give them any oxygen, eh?
@CharlieMurphy
Murphy eh! My wife’s a Murphy and a catholic, I’m a proddy since I was baptised in the CoS, can’t we live together because thee is so much that divides us?
Bollocks, but know what not that many really care. There is no SNLA other than in your imagination.
Lets be honest here, you support and are fighting for the Union position. fair enough. Please share on here your most positive reason for a No vote.
Don’t have one, do you? Only drivel like the rest of the trolls that visit.
@chalks: You kiss your mother with that mouth?
@TJenny: No problem. Yes, they’re not particularly well known, and it might well be the case that their ‘army’ is smaller than your average stag party. There have been a few incidents over the years, mainly threats, though they did send letter bombs to Princess Diana and Thatcher in the 80s.
@Grouse Beater: I’m just going off newspaper reports that state the man claimed to be a member.
Charlie – ah, ‘I’m just going off newspaper reports that state the man claimed to be a member.’ I’ve also gone off newspaper reports, which is why I don’t read them anymore. 🙂
My wife’s brother was an officer in the SAS and he used to talk about soldiers like this guy, saying they were to pitied.
They had seen seen and done horrific things on the battlefield and falling back on being staunchly patriotic is the crutch they use to justify their actions. It’s actually quite common and he’s obviously been damaged by his experiences. He shouldn’t have been abused in this manner.
As my wife would say ‘poor auld bugger’.
@TJenny: That’s fair enough. I too try to approach the media with a sceptical eye. Beware of going too far down that road though, or you may find yourself indulging in delusional fantasies about unionist conspiracies, MI5 plants, and shadowy engli–ahem, Westminster–figures plotting cuts following a no vote, as with our most reverend Stuart of Somerset.
Bye for now,
Charlie
Yes charlie, the “man” who may exist or not, claimed to be a “member” of the group quoted during an “incident” that may or may not have happened.
Think about that for a second.
How IS the police manhunt going ?
You forgot to comment on the threats of death made against A.Salmond by these people and how that equates to them somehow being connected to the Yes campaign and the SNP?
I am sure you were just about to explain that, so fire away.
Murphy: I’m just going off newspaper reports that state the man claimed to be a member.
No you are not.
And spare us pious counsel on avoiding conspiracy theories otherwise I’ll have to set Snowden on your stupidity.
@Thepnr,
I hadn’t intended to comment any further, but I’ll bite.
I’m quite content to live with anyone, of any faith or none at all, though I may have to draw the line at nationalists (joking, of course!). I count people of most of the major religions (and some minor ones) among my friends and flatmates, and the one thing that’s struck me as my horizons have widened is how much we all have in common.
And to answer your question, one of the main reasons I support a no vote is that I believe unity and brotherhood between peoples is desirable. I don’t believe that there are Scots and Englishmen as much as there are human beings, who can achieve most when they work together. In fact, I’d be quite happy living in a federal Europe, counting Frenchmen, Germans, Spaniards, etc as my countrymen.
Thanks,
Charlie
Murphy’s spuds: I don’t believe that there are Scots and Englishmen as much as there are human beings.
That piece of blatant stupidity puts you in the ‘avin’ a larf’ trolling. Another headbanger tries hard to convince he is serioous chronically unable to allow Scotland full democracy but happy to live amongst other nations that enjoy it.
This is the Duggie stairheid philosophy: self-governance is good for Scotland but I can’t support the SNP giving us the chance to get it.
Take a hike.
@CharlieMurphy
I’m not a Nationalist and never have been. The reason I will be supporting Independence and voting Yes is that it really is an opportunity to escape from the right wing politics of Westminster.
Now if you agree with the right wing agenda, fair enough.
If however you believe in a more inclusive rather than divisive society. I would suggest you are currently on the wrong side.
Nationalist
Cybernat
Nazi
Seperatist
Jeezo…i can remember when i was called charming handsome and funny !!
How times change..lol
Conan
Like this
//tinyurl.com/nj2nw69
link to ttp:
better
Doug D,
“For the record, I don’t believe in active BBC bias, but I do believe in lack of competence and institutional, unknowing bias.”
Apart from the minor fact that UKIP TV is the defacto leader of the No campaign.
And the main arms supplier to ‘ordinary mum’ Johann Lamont for use at First Ministers’ Questions during her once a week outing from her bunker.
I certainly don’t think it happens ‘unknowingly’.
YESGUY
Bravo
handclapping says:
It is gravity, handclapping, just newtons,
Oh goody – charliemurphy again! Hello dear, I do hope you’ve developed your arguments, sorry been off-line, will take me an age to track back – see you soon, if I can remember where I am.
Not to forget only one thing stands between victory and defeat for us on 18th September: UKIP TV.
‘Unknowingly’, most certainly not.
I said it at the start of this campaign and I’ll say it again.
Newspapers are businesses, they are in the game of making money like any other.
Regardless of who they employ they will follow the money. Yes they will try (and usually used to succeed) and make people’s minds up for them but ultimately they will accommodate their customer base.
If the customer base is increasingly turning to a Yes vote then their editorial will change to satisfy the market share.
You bet your bottom dollar they are all watching the sales figures of the Sunday Herald.
Let’s make no mistake people. Even the toffs that own these rags have no loyalty to the UK. Their loyalty lies with ££££££££££
We’re turning a corner. I’m convinced the papers will turn to Yes to protect their share. When that happens the No campaign will collapse and put the BBC in a spot of bother.
The magic’s coming 🙂
Forgot to add!
Alex Salmond pissing on Alistair Darling’s chips on STV will be the trigger.
Been mulling over QT last night. My take now is that the producers and Dimbleby were exploiting this poor man as a catalyst to provoke angry, unpleasant responses from the audience. They hope then to say, look at these people, they cannot even debate rationally etc. etc. Instead of which I was immensely proud and satisfied that he was dealt with bemused courtesy. The fact Dimbleday went back to the man twice and cut up panel members to do so, shows this was a contrivance on the part of the BBC, to discredit Scotland and create a scene – great for their political ends and show ratings. They failed utterly. Neither the panel nor the audience took the BC bait. I seriously suspect this man has health issues & the BBC took advantage of this, i.e. exploited the man’s vulnerability. (I hope he finds a good lawyer & sues the BBC). The real story, as the Deacon Blue guy so graciously said at the end, was that Scotland is getting on with the debate and talking & listening to each other’ Didn’t Dimbleby look crestfallen at the end? No volatile, uncouth Scots to patronise or ridicule, as hoped for by the BBC. Well done us, another YES media win.WE are going to do this. IN spite of all their machinations, bias & established MSM constant propaganda & yes, barefaced lies, the truth is quietly rising, like a bubble to the water’s surface, unstoppable, irrefutable & unmistakable.
@Robert Bryce –
‘The magic’s coming’!
Love it.
The upsurge in visibility of Yes stickers – especially car stickers – in the past fortnight or so has been quite remarkable, here in Ayrshire at any rate.
And tonight, TITP, the Biffy main-man gets the Yes saltire around his neck while he’s on his knees at the climax of a fantastic set.
Whatever next?
I’ve been mulling over this myself. In short, I’m getting very unnerved by the frequency of the “referendum is divisive and causing rifts” meme. Between this, Galloway’s “Indy Scotland will be bad for Catholics,” Smart’s “turn on the Pakis and Poles”, the Orange Order’s endorsement, and now the burning of Yes flags, I think we’re moving into the “then they come to fight you” stage very quickly. They WANT this to be a fight – but we’re not going to give it to them. People WANT some poor souls to die for their country – but I want a Scotland where nobody has to die for their country ever again.
link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com
Charlie Murphy ends his post with the word “best”
Best what Charlie, best looking?
The referendum is proving divisive. Long term friends from my army days now either ignore me or call me a ("Tractor" - Ed).
Very sad to see that, but that bitterness is in my experience to be found in spades in the unionist side.
Every no-ist I kin, which isn’t many, seem to have the same pattern, they lose the argument and turn to aggression and spout hatred.
[…] Video courtesy the Reverend. […]
Grendel: The referendum is proving divisive
They’ll get over it.
The real divisiveness, the one that will endure and make a difference, is what Westminster have in store for Scotland if we show we are what they think we are – weak!