Wings Over Scotland

This would be worth a license fee !

@ Black Triangle (Thanks for this) – Sad it will go nowhere

But can’t say I’m surprised. Won’t do any good, would all be denied by STV. No journalist will pick this up and it would never get published anyway.

Was very surprised at STV choice of Ipsos Mori though noted links with Tories previously.

Black Triangle

If there is any evidence to back this up, let’s get it on the table. If there isn’t, let’s not set a hare running.

The Debate was show to a wide audience and often for the first tine the rest of Britain and the wider world have favourable insight to the debate and the arguments around the Referendum issues.

Ken500

The wider World, ie outside the UK, and many in the UK, couldn’t see it online as STV’s servers crashed.

I live in France and didn’t see it although someone I know in the USA managed half-way to get a feed, albeit buffering every 2 minutes.

I canae be ersed watching the recording, which seems to be working, if you thread your way through the STV website.

Despite what the food critic had to say my opinion is that last nights “debate” WILL be a game changer.

1,500,000 Scots intending to vote YES will work all the harder to get the message across.

I’ve thought I was already doing as much as I can but I was fooling myself. I will no longer take the bullshit from the media and will double my efforts. I will be made redundant before the end of the month and for the first time in my life will be knocking on doors canvassing for a Yes.

If we all do the same we will end this so called Union once and for all for our own sake. Pick yourself up if your feeling low and get in there with the head down. You won’t get another chance so don’t blow this one.

Does anyone know how many more TV debates there will be before the vote.

I received the YES leaflet today and the NO leaflet. Chalk and cheese. The YES leaflet is bright, brash, big, full of upbeat information. The NO leaflet is small, petty, negative and eminently binworthy.

If I had to summarise first impressions of the leaflets, I would say that YES looks like the future, NO looks like the past. The best thing the official YES campaign has done so far IMO.

It’s a bit of a cheer-up after last night’s debate really.

And . . . is the Daily Record turning?
Independence referendum debate: Undecided voters reveal how first TV showdown altered their opinions

Not much of a story – it’s a sample of 4, but they are all voting YES!

@heedtracker

It was like those neanderthals who when you complain about their racism and/or sexism etc reply that was ‘just banter’. Just like all those defending Top Gear as it’s racism was also ‘just banter’.

I thought Darling lost the audience on that one and Alex scored some hits there.

Basically Darling refused to answer any question in a straight manner. Alex was a bit like that but he did answer a lot of questions as asked as well. Though he missed a number of open goals as well. I’m merely an old champion debater way back in my schooldays not a politician but I saw a number of opportunities for good sharp jabs to the jaw that were just ignored. I’ll defer to Alex’s superior political judgement for the moment but he really could sharpen up his game.

Brilliant Dateline , just brilliant.

Just Brilliant, I actually laughed out loud at the way the female reporters high heels could be heard clicking as she walked across the bridge then the street.

Talking about strange goings on at IpsosMori, this appeared on twitter yesterday:

Ipsos phoned a family home to do a telephone poll and asked if they could speak to the son who was 20, because they desperately needed people from this age group,

Ipsos were told that he wouldn’t be back for about an hour, but Ipsos said they would phone back..and they did.

The field worker for Ipsos asked the young man how he would be voting and he replied that he was voting Yes.

The Ipsos person said ok, but can you hold for a moment, however as often happens the field worker hadn’t muted her phone properly and the young man heard what she was saying.

She called her line manager and told him that the young man was voting Yes, so he told her to tell the young mna that there was a technical glitch and Ipsos would phone him right back,

At the time of the tweet, 4 hours had passed and Ipsos hadn’t phoned back!

It seems that Ipsos is having a lot of problems with ‘Technical Glitches’ but I’m sure the No campaign are happy with them.

What’s most interesting about that Daily Record article is the comments. Look at the massive upvoting no pro-Yes comments and the massive downvoting on pro-No comments. That may be slightly twisted by Wingers who’ve gone and looked from here, but I’m not convinced that can be the whole story. And while it looks a lot like those undecideds were already leaning towards a Yes (as I think most of us suspect most undecideds are, deep down), the fact that Darling couldn’t swing one of them to a No, or even a No-leaning undecided, is a pretty positive thing.

I said last night that Salmond needed a punchline – “so you’re saying that all BT’s scare stories are just jokes?” The more I think about it though, maybe he didn’t. Maybe he’s actually rather cleverer than that. Because today, people are saying “what was all that crap about aliens and driving on the right?” and Yes voters will be able to jump in and say “have you read this article on Wings about the scare stories they’ve been feeding you?” Ridicule is actually a pretty effective weapon in politics if it gets people questioning the whole credibility of the arguments. Once people have seen how stupid some of BT’s stories really are, the currency threats and the SNP’s level-headed, persistent argument that it’s all just campaign tactics will gain a lot more traction. The key thing is that we get the message out there as loudly as we can.

Full details submitted in a complaint to Ofcom Reference #1267204285 – Result to be published on their website in fourteen days.

They should not be monitoring any of the audience. They should give folk a ticket who want to come in. If their is any manipulation they should no be allowed to hold the debate.

Some folk love Alex, some folk hate Alex. The majority love him and hate the Union.

Dateline Scotland. Thank you for a fair & unbias News

Report. I would hope that the Bbc see your reporting style

& copy your factual reporting.

Brilliant stuff,promote the ticker typer.

Talking of TV,everyone registered?

link to referendumtv.net

Here is a timely reminder about our assets and wealth and the Westminster mindset.

This is Margaret Thatcher hatchet man talking with loathing aplenty about Scotland, our wealth and Westminster’s entitlement to steal it all.

link to youtube.com

Fast forward to last week and the oil that never was and see what will be our duty if there is a No vote?

If we vote No we will deserve this a aplenty. We cannot say we have not been warned.

People are not concerned about currency, Crown or EU.

They are not game changers.

As usual NO are totally out of touch.

The sight of Darling just puts folks back and YES votes up. The Man who bankrupted Britain.

wish we had something like the the Daily Show here in Britain would maybe do the politics/ politicians some good being humiliated.

In other words – another excellent reason to vote YES and start afresh 😉

I’m a little disappointed by the debate. So much time and effort has been put in to get the numerous other opportunities and issues related to independence out to the Scottish public, and in the space of one 2 hour TV debate, Scotland is once again focussed on the fucking currency union pish again. Seriously detracting from far more pressing social and economic issues and I’m angry it’s happened.

I wonder if the makers of Dateline Scotland could get together with the crowd at Referendum T.V.;)

Ever wondered what happens when MSM are not involved in a poll. link to edinburghnews.scotsman.com

Taking out the undecided, thats 57% yes 43% no!!! WE CAN DO THIS!!

We’ve listened to all kinds of crap from the MSM over the past two years. What I fail to understand is why so many Yes voters see last nights debate as such a failure.

Why should this be so important to the detriment of all the positive arguments you have heard here on this site and others that would make you so negative?

Last nights debate really was no big deal, what worries me is that if some of you can become so despondent due to a CLAIM by the bias media that Darling won, then it seems you must be as gullible as the “no information” lot.

Last night and today we have seen an onslaught of negativity, not just in the media but right here on this site. The trolls came mob handed and many Wingers turned and ran it would seem.

Don’t fall for it. I’ll bet even some of you genuine supporters have said exactly this in the past yet failed to hear your own advice.

This little episode has in my view been the most successful use of propaganda yet by the British state. Get back on track folks, shrug this off and come out fighting.

You owe it to future generations as well as yourselves.

I think the person that put pro plus in Darling’s pint of Red Bull has a lot to answer for, Darling could hardly speak by the end.

Just be aware that some Yessers aren’t above making this stuff up. I’ve just been reading the Guardian, where a poster claimed that a ‘techie’ from the BBC told him that they had been manipulating the sound coming from the crowd to favour Darling.

Only for another poster to point out that the BBC weren’t even the ones who’d broadcasted the debate …

So my money’s on this all being cooked up by some sore loser of a nat.

@YESGUY

Snap! There are pessimists and then there are YES supporters.

I’m an optimist.

FFs folks, it’s ‘biased media’ not ‘bias media’.

Bias is a noun, biased is an adjective.

Phew, that’s placated my inner grammar Nazi.

Some comments elsewhere have remarked on the fact that Darling was wearing spectacles.

The most obvious reason would be to try and cover up his incessant blinking and eyebrows that have a life of their own when he gets agitated – which is often.

However another unusual suggestion that had been made is that he was getting help via them – see youtu.be/UAQ-lp0jrHo

@Training Day

You know what my point is really about?

It’s don’t let’s do their job for them, sure Salmond maybe could have done better in many’s eyes but for supporters of Yes to draw attention to this just increases the negativity.

I don’t know about you personally but i have never voted for Salmond or the SNP. So what? I will be voting Yes for a better future in the belief that no matter which party is in power we will succeed in doing a far better job than Westminster can.

Salmond is a figurehead for a vote for Independence but not the reason for choosing to vote Yes.

I agree that “not one person (other than the usual trolls) on this site this morning is any less committed to winning on September 18th.”

I hope like me this morning they are MORE committed.

I’m not phased by the debate, I know the arguments and the facts related to independence. But a lot are not, as was evidenced by my wife last night joining in with the audience in willing Alex to answer the question on currency (and she is voting Yes). My worry is that the debate gets dragged back into old well trodden ground that answers are available for. This to me is backwards and energy will be used repeating the same points (as I did last night to family members)

@Marian

Hahahaha, that surely has to be Nat conspiracy theory’s shark-jumping moment.

Darling wears glasses most of the time, you bam. Just search his name on Google images.

Next up: Darling is a lizard man!

There were subtleties to Salmonds approach that are perhaps lost on some people.

Salmond could have played to his Establishment bogey man image and filleted Darling but that would not have looked good to impressionable viewers; he would have confirmed the MSM portrait of him as a bully and yaaa boo politician.

Darling, on the other hand came over as a bully and Yaa Boo politician. His finger pointing, interruptions, shouting and body language made him out to be what he actually is – London’s Bully Boy sent up to teach those Scots a lesson.

He is London’s man and he came over as just that.

Salmond looked the part of calm, professional First Minister who wearily has to listen to the School Bully Darling while he delivered London’s attempted dressing down.

Darling’s delivery of “you can’t do this and you can’t do that” will not resonate well with certain parts of the audience.

In this partisan atmosphere which occasionally can border on the tribal, it’s to be expected that a lot of commentators on Wings would have been baying for and expecting blood, but that is what the MSM want. It would be walking into to trap to fall down to the Westminster level of debate. People are sick to death of that. And that is one of the major reasons people are turning to Yes, as Yes offers an alternative to the partisan Yaa Boo of the commons and the theatrically over hyped version of debate on offer from London.

The point is this; we don’t want it and we are not going to Ape it.

We’ll take our cue from more sophisticated democracies.

Salmond was sophisticated and mature in contrast to London’s Pet Bully Boy Darling.

Grendel.
STV admitted that this person was real if you read my previous post.

@Thepnr 2:03 pm

Wee, smiley faced thing.

“First they ignore you,

then they laugh at you,

then they get ‘shouty’,

and then you win.”

Dateline IS brilliant, had to laugh at the scrolling comment,
“Ruth Davidson come second in the Selkirk break dancing contest”, what a hoot.

By the way this morning on STV, they talked about the debate and said this will all be repeated in 3 weeks, which led me to thinking.
Has Alex Salmond deliberately lead Darling into an over confident mode,in order to deliver a knockout in the next event? Hmmm?

Paul, I don’t see a previous post from you. Sorry, what time was it at, it’ll make it easier for me to find it.

Good to see that the poster Charlie Murphy is prepared to give us the positive case for the Union, how Westminster will deliver the progressive society we desire. Hold on…

Quickly – what do remember most about the debate? A shouty person continually asking for the answer to a question time after time and which had already been answered, and getting more and more animated and flustered? I did. As did many others. This will not turn anyone into a No voter. This referendum is much bigger than the poor performance of the debate last night. As was pointed out yesterday the headlines were already in progress. How could the MSM all of a sudden turn around after months of the most despicable news agenda and say ‘Salmond won – yay, all vote Yes’? It is up to all of us to counter all the negativity and engage with everyone we can about the big picture. Our country or a region run by Westminster?

The BBC say they are to hold a debate later this month Les but I’m not sure if their debate is the same one that STV referred to when you watched them this morning though. Typical STV/BBC clear as thick mud! 😀

A second debate is to take place on the BBC later this month.

link to tinyurl.com

I have to laugh at much of the No propaganda. They want to truss Scotland up like a turkey to sustain the UK economy. I for one will not vote for Christmas. I will be voting YES because I have seen right through their gameplan.

I recommend you all do likewise.

Lesley-Anne says:

Well it was just because it was reported on STV, they did not say it was on BBC. So I assumed, rightly or wrongly that it was being repeated on STV. We will find out in due course I suspect. Cheers.

@TD says: 6 August, 2014 at 11:37 am

“If there is any evidence to back this up, let’s get it on the table. If there isn’t, let’s not set a hare running.”

Ach! It’s aw yon Kemny MacWhaskles faut. The gadgie wha wis subterfumigated haes nane o you corroberabberation onywey.

Managed to see most of the debate live from Frankfurt. 🙂

If STV has tried to manipulate the audience towards a NO tendence then then it should be investigated; my impression was however that they wanted more of a gladitorial spectacle.

Darling had apparently been trained to go into an attack mode and not give the opponent time to really answer, a bit Anus lite. He was very evasive and not really interested in actually answering questions.

I was a little bit disappointed in Alex. He has all the facts and knowledge at his disposel but his presentation yesterday was underwhelming, the delivery was in part bad. He let himself get on to the back foot with currency and seemed too defensive.

He had 4 topics EU, NHS, pensions and currency which he could have used to get Darling on the run, the project fear aliens thing was ill-advised and just wasted time.

BT will be clamouring for a second debate now, so get prepared and come out fighting.

And while we’re at it, too many commentators here were claiming victory, Darling smashed, he’s no chance etc. before the debate and see what happened. They should never be underestimated.

Bit of a rant, sorry, but I wasn’t too happy with last night despite the DK percentages.

@ Giving Goose

Great post. Agree that Salmond was not playing to us, but to the undecideds and the media’s portrayal of him.

Many will have seen another side to him and will not have particularly liked the Darling they saw in comparison.

Sorry for going O/T but thought folks in Fife might like to see how the campaign is going in West Fife.

link to tinyurl.com

Don’t feed the trolls or posters get banned as well. Stu is too busy to have to patrol the site.

Oh look its Mr Bias Curtice.

link to theguardian.com

@lesley Anne

They get very very angry when they realise they are losing and resort to abusing the dead. Unionist trolls are a disgusting bunch of nobody’s .

Shameful ("Tractor" - Ed)s to their own people.

@heedtracker says: 6 August, 2014 at 12:16 pm:

“Its really worth checking out just how much of an oddball, clown, as much use as chocolate tea pot Darling really was in the run up to, during and aftermath of the whole 2008 bank crash itself.”

Don’t know how many noticed but Darling told the same old lie about Salmond claiming he had EU legal advice. I’ve challanged many Labour and other Naysayers on that one and have still to find one who could quote where and/or when Salmond ever made such a claim. Almost to the one they all claimed it was during the Andrew Neil TV interview. I was carrying a short transcript around with me for a while and, when I read it out to them, not one could dispute it.

Here’s the bit : –

NEIL: Have you sought advice from your own Scottish law officers in this matter?
SALMOND: We have, yes, in terms of the debate.
NEIL: And what do they say?
SALMOND: You can read that in the documents that we’ve put forward, which argue the position that we’d be successor states.

They read it and then say, “Aye! That’s it”.
I then point out that the question asked was, : –
“Have you sought advice “from your own Scottish law officers” in this matter? and ask if Salmond was asked if he had legal advice from his own Scottish Law Officers how do you manage to claim it was from the EU?

The usual result is a swift exit stage left.
One, though, that still continued with the sham was that Smart lawyer character that used to write in Labour Hame.
He still never quoted a source for when Salmond was supposed to make the claim.

So next time someone comes away with that lie – you know how to call then out.

I agree YESGUY, they are the worst kind of TROLL. They have NO answers to any question, they are terrified of tomorrow, they have no way of thinking for themselves, they are feart, they are GUTLESS COWARDS plain and simple!

Andrew Morton says:

What have veterinarians got against Jim Sillars anyway?

I’m not going to bite on that one Andrew cause I DID actually think that to myself when I first saw it. 😀

I think it actually is meant to mean veterans as in former military personnel. If that is the case thwen I’m glad they are no longer in the military cause I’d hate to have GUTLESS COWARDLY MUPPETS like these *ahem* protecting me, my family and my country!

YESGUY says:

Agreed!

Wow below is a comment on the Curtice article from the guardian. It is excellent….

People are not overly concerned at the polls. How many thousands were at the Rangers v Hibernian game as the debate was being aired live on television ?

The Glasgow Fair fortnight is just finished and the Paisley Fair is upon us and many are still relaxing on holiday abroad. Edinburgh Trades too.

It’s been a busy summer of sport with the World Cup, Wimbledon and the Commonwealth Games and people are just recovering from sport saturation as the Ryder Cup begins.

How John Curtice can read that Salmond needs a ‘gamechanger’ at this time, is unreasonable to say the least. There is PLENTY of time for the Polls to move. There is six weeks to go, and let’s be honest, a lot can happen in that time.

Boris for possible Tory Leader and possible Prime Minister, should swing a few more toward ‘YES’.

People need a chance to re-engage, and they will, nearer the referendum. ‘For Salmond to admit the game is up’, is simply ludicrous Mr Curtice. A man of your reputation should know better, but writing for the Unionist Guardian should perhaps be a warning to the YES Campaign that your ‘impartiality’ has been compromised, and we can expect much more partisan Unionist comment from you.

You are indeed from the BBC stable Mr Curtice, and it shows.

Sorry for going O/T again folks but it looks like we have yet another new ally to the cause. 😛

This is in the Telegraph.

link to tinyurl.com

Tweet from Cameron re Boris, in the D Torygraph

David Cameron

Great news that Boris plans to stand at next year’s general election – I’ve always said I want my star players on the pitch.

As opposed to in the dugout?

Some Academics in Scotland are getting £Millions of taxpayers money from Union supporters, without declaring a personal interest. This could affect their professional judgement.

@Thepnr

SNAP.

God help them though, they have just galvanized thousands onto the streets to campaign for Yes.

Curtice is receiving £Millions of public money from BT (without a mandate)

O/T The Economist comparing Alex Salmond to Nigel Farage, oh how the unionist lying press love to whip themselves up into a frenzy.

link to economist.com

BtP

I think you mean Dr Philippa Whitford and she is an oncologist at crosshouse hospital in Kilmarnock. Easily found on Youtube by putting her name in the search box.

@BtP

Curtice has a fellowship of the ESRC:

link to esrc.ac.uk

which is largely funded by Vince Cable’s Department for Business, Innovation and Skills

link to esrc.ac.uk

Just sayin..

Aw Charlie you disappoint me.

I gave you a whole hour to give me 2 reasons for the union and you don’t answer. Maybe you buggered off to annoy some other YESSERS on other sites.

Shame , i was willing to listen.

Still, if there is anyone out there willing to take up the challenge of giving 2 reasons FOR the union i promise to listen(read) with an open mind.

Funny as the polls say No campaigners are winning and there are thousands of them out there…..

Any Takers ????

I definitely think that the audience at the debate were from rent a mob. Very unruly and were allowed to heckle without restraint. Brought the proceedings down to the level of an amateur pantomime. Perhaps this was the intention though.

Jim Marshall

I never saw it, for STV technical reasons, but a friend streamed it to me over Skype.

I did give up after the first break though.

It sounded to me more like a Friday night at the Glasgow Alhambra.

Either that or Calderpark at feeding time.-)

BtP

Or Blantyre Co Hall on a Friday night. Free gumshields at the door.

Piemonteis

Cant help you there but will say that joining NATO will give us all the muscle we will need in defense. The Uk/Iceland gap is THE most strategic point on the Nato area . This is where the old Soviet Block would send their Boomers (nuke subs) onto the Atlantic.

We have NO cover in Scottish waters as it is relying on Norway to cover us. The nearest Navel base is in Portsmouth. It takes a good day to reach our waters and that would be way too late. Normally, and i kid you not, a passing trawler will tweet that someone is in our waters that shouldn’t be. Nato will welcome Scotland hands down.

After inde Scotland will use Faslane as a HQ for the Scottish Defence force and Scots Navy. NO nukes < conventional forces only. Many other countries have small Armed forces and manage just fine and if war should be declared ( God forbid ) the whole country would be mobilised .

I spent a good few years as a soldier and know a wee bit about the Nato set up. There is bags of stuff online.

Who does you mother fear would attack us P. ?

Me can't see anyone trying as we have allies all over the world , politically and militarily . We would share our duties with the rUK and Norway as well as Europe as regards home waters.

Hope this helps.

Piemontais

There is a good article, recently here, regarding the uselessness and cost of Trident and its successor.

You could also point out in passing that the last time the Russian “Fleet” dropped anchor in the Moray Firth, to shelter from a storm, the RN knew nothing about it and it was only a tweet from some Scottish fisherman which was passed to them before they realised.

They have no real warships based in Scotland and had to scramble a destroyer and a crew from Portsmouth who arrived three days later after they had gone.

There no longer any long range sea surveillance aeroplane based in Scotland either, any more.

That my shock her and demonstrate that Westminster does not ensure the UK’s never mind Scotland’s defence security.

Curtice is wrong again (shock horror).

Yes do not need a game changer. The game changer is people themselves who are now finally engaged.

There is definite movement to Yes. If it’s enough to win the ref, time will tell, but every day I’m out or I’m up at my parents house or when I take in a route I’ve not seen for a few weeks – there’s always a sticker or poster for Yes I seen on a house, shed, vehicle, wall or a badge/label on someone’s jumper or jacket.

Trying not to harp on about last night and I agree 100% with Dave McEwen’s point on another post that what people will remember from this is Darling shouting and Salmond being nice.
I do think we need to deal better for future debates regards the currency question and I’m sure Yes and Salmond/SNP will be looking at last night’s performance.

The game changer is momentum. It’s all going one way, but we musn’t slip up like the currency issue last night – we need a positive/firm response when this is asked again (and it will be, BT know this is where they had some success last night – AD spent around 12 mins battering on about it).

Salmond also needs to use (if a similar format) his questions better. We need to drill home about the NHS, social justice, equality and reducing poverty. Not going on about aliens, right hand side of the road, slurs at project fear or saying something is in the White Paper.

We can do it though! And we will.

Heads up. We are winnig this.

K1

Like these?

link to tinyurl.com

News just in Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling are to go head to head again, later this month, at the BBC in Glasgow, its a 100% certain that this debate will be rigged, by the BBC.

Many of the folk who go to the debate, just go to get on TV. Shocking. The menage.

With ref to defence, one thing I will categorically state is that aircraft carriers are naff all to do with defence. Their stated role is power projection.

That is taken from classes in defence structure from HMS Collingwood… when I had the dubious pleasure of trying to stay awake in them.

BtP in addition to Whitford.

link to youtube.com

@piemonteis 3:53pm

With the exception of ww1 & ww2 ask your mother when is the last time Scotland was attacked by any foreign force other than England in the last 900 years?

Again Ireland has only ever been attacked or invaded by the English and that was several hundred years ago. They were not attacked by Germany in ww1 or ww2, because they were not involved with England. They were and are I believe neutral.

So who is it that has ill will or a desire to invade us or even threaten us. The only country that wishes to dominate us is England and think that’s much more about oil and ego than for any other reason. So after 900 years why and who would want to attack us.

The biggest threat to Scotland is the nuclear weapons belonging to HMG and an accident happening at Coulport/ faslane. That would just about wipe Scotland off the map and if anybody survived would make it unliveable for 100 years.

Hope you can see clearer now where the threat has come from in the last 900 years and what and who is the current threat. If nuclear weapons are a great defence why ain’t they ringing London? May be it’s because they are far too dangerous.

If we could get some nice lady who will be at the BBC debate could smuggle one of these, in her handbag, and switch it on.

The device is a Bluetooth and wifi jammer.

We would soon seen Flipper pissing himself on live TV if he was using bluetooth enabled glasses.

Curtice also gets £thousands from the Media as BT’s main media supporter.

Jeezo, those soundbites the BBC picked up in Inverness – that wifie on the freebies we get that England help pay for, and how we’re going to raise the taxes to cover it. Bangs head off wall.

So we, and the rest of the country, have to listen to that every hour with no opportunity to point the poor mislead soul in the right direction.

In regards to Curtice, it is a feature of the way Unionists have run Scotland. They have inserted their supporters into key positions in academia, political commentary, media etc. This is done so that when they want a view on politics here, they know they will get the British establishment’s outlook on Scotland, or as close to it as possible. I suspect Curtice is just one of the people who have fulfilled this role. SLAB have been good at creating a patronage system here in particular. Things have changed, particularly in the last few decades. Some Labour people are now supporting independence, but there is no doubt that the Scottish establishment is still dominated by Unionists. It is a mutually beneficial network of interests.

@heedtracker

Are you talking about Kezia Dugdale, or was it somebody else?

link to rt.com

@Piemonteis

Here is the answers you seek as to how Scotland would be better off managing it’s defence in an Independent Scotland.

The article is long and full of detail but if both you and your mother really want to know some of what the real story is then I guess you will take the time to read it.

link to publications.parliament.uk

@Kininvie

That’s the first time I’ve come across this paper and I’m impressed with the way it’s presented.

In fact, there’s a lot in there for everyone, and I’ll be making sure to refer to it on a regular basis.

Thanks a lot for the link!