Unsolvable paradox solved
Here’s “Better Together” communications director Rob Shorthouse this morning:
And here’s the Telegraph this evening (our emphasis):
We’re always willing to believe that “Better Together” are lying, because they usually are. We’re always willing to believe the Telegraph is lying, because it usually is. But on this occasion, ONE of them must be telling the truth. Frankly, readers, we have no idea what to think.
Oh, wait, yes we do:
Turns out we knew two days ago that the First Minister had said absolutely explicitly that he’d debate Alistair Darling after the Commonwealth Games. Nothing whatsoever has changed about his position since then, but Mr Darling has pulled out.
So this time, implausible and out of character as it seems, the Telegraph is telling the truth and Rob Shorthouse is lying. (Well, unless the Telegraph was lying on Monday, we suppose, but surely someone would have said something by now if they were.)
Phew, glad we cleared that one up.
That’s that sorted then
But he IS managing to pay his mortgage
Rev
“Nothing whatsoever has changed”
Oh yes it has Rev, the TV companies have changed. Darling is wanting BBC Scotland to hold the debate in August, not STV.
As someone posted yesterday saying,
“Darling will be lost without the arms of Auntie round him”.
Hey, as long as the mortgage payments are kept up on Chez Shorthouse who cares….
And Blair McDougall was inferring earlier on Twitter as well.
And Glen Campbell would chair the debate. Salmond should tell them,
No Thanks.
Let’s be honest, Darling knew he’d get the shit kicked out of him, and why, oh why would Salmond debate with a backbench opposition MP
Rob Shorthouse once again showing Better Together’s use of doublethink. Just remember that if they say 2+2=5 then it does. Ignorance is Strength and whatnot
Rob Shorthouse once again showing Better Together’s use of doublethink. Just remember that if they say 2+2=5 then it does. Ignorance is Strength and whatnot
I don’t much care who Salmond debates, he will wipe the floor with whoever. But BT need to careful, they are looking feart increasingly and tying themselves in knots to pretend otherwise.
At least we have a balanced top table tomorrow night for the debate in Troon (7pm for 7:30 Troon Concert Hall). Ivan McKee, Robin McAlpine, Prof Dan Wright & John Scott MSP.
Amanda Burgauer is the more than capable chairperson.
How can you NOT want to be there?
I wonder if Blair McDougall is being sidelined by the no campaign too, he appears to be the last to know what’s going on.
The whole thing stinks. The protection of the MSM has allowed Cameron in particular to get away with barefaced cowardice all along.
O/T(apologies)
Radical Independence national mass canvass results, 22/6/14. 8000+ responses:-
(Excluding DKs) Yes 57.6%
No 42.4%
The actual don’t know figure was 30%.
All to play for.
Why would Salmond debate with Darling?
What is Darling’s status in BetterTogether? I think Jenkins or Canavan from YesScotland be more appropriate.
It’s Salmond versus Cameron we want to see!
‘Short’house’? Is that really his name?
Short’arse
Short’change
Sort’sighted
Short’measure
Short’coming
Short’circuit
Short’selling
Short-tempered
Short’supply
Short’sight
Short’cut
Short’fall
Short’lived
Ah… short term memory!
Shorthouse: Shortbread – half-man, half-biscuit.
For any Wingers or other interested parties, Yes Kirkintilloch, Lenzie and Villages is hosting an information meeting tomorrow night in Kirkintilloch Miners’ Welfare from 7.00pm – 9.00pm. Speakers are Carolyn Leckie (Women for Indy) and Alex Bell (Labour for Indy). All welcome!
O/T what on earth have Yes Scotland done to their previous awful website?
It is absolutely terrible now.
It can’t just be me surely, please tell me it’s not exactly at the forefront of communications.
link to yesscotland.net
@ Jim Thomson
Is the Concert Hall the same as the Walker Halls? South Beach?
@Jim Thomson
You are so right re the YES website, it is dreadful.
I’m gonna need an infographic with a Timeline…
God, they must hate you Stu.
Oh wait, they do.
Apologies Stu for going O/T so early on in the thread but results from the RIC mass canvass of unregistered voters on Sunday:
8,317 people canvassed
40% Yes, 29.5% No, 30.5% undecided
Strip-out undecideds gives: 57.6% Yes, 42.4% No
link to facebook.com
Surely the MSM must broadcast this, afterall its the biggest Indy ref opinion poll ever conducted? Won’t be holding my breath.
Alistair Darling, chickening out. Who would have thought! Is there anyone from Better Together willing to defend the Union? Or are ye’s all feart?
@Crazycat they’re in the same building. Walker hall one side and concert hall the other. You coming along? Bringing an “undecided”?
YesScotland site begins with a “go to website” prompt? Gives the impression it’s been hacked and you are getting redirected somewhere else!
It would be great if someone could make a tally of all the times better together have pulled out of a debate….
Kev dear – who’s getting them registered?
No surprises. He probably hoped Salmond would refuse to debate forever. Called his bluff though and now he backs out.
Is anyone else watching them House of Lords debate on BBC Parliament? Lots of crusty old men telling scary stories and trying to think of ways to wriggle out of a yes vote. I want to stick pins in my eyes.
@Nana Smith – phew! Not just me then (normally is
)
Darling had no intention of debating.It was a game of bluff.Salmond called his bluff.The phrase:”It would have been like shooting fish in a barrel springs to mind”.Darling could not live with Salmon’s.The public see Salmond as cheeky and cocky but they see Darling as creepy and shifty.I know who I would rather by a life insurance policy from!
FYI – The two leading politicians mentioned are Michael Moore MP and Murdo Fraser MSP…
VISIONS OF SCOTLAND
Scotland’s constitutional future is the overriding issue in Scotland at the present time. This event, jointly hosted by Glasgow University and Reform Scotland, will give two leading politicians from different parties the opportunity to explain which further powers they would like to see Scotland obtain and how they see the constitution developing. They will also set out how Scotland would benefit from these further powers and their vision of Scotland’s future. Following that, there will be an opportunity for questions from the audience.
Places at this free event are limited and will be allocated on a first-come-first-served basis. If you would like to attend then please register via Eventbrite at link to eventbrite.co.uk
Please note that we are planning a further event looking at contrasting visions of independence.
Darling’s frit.
Debate with Darling!
Debate with Darling!
Debate with Darling!
Okay. I will.
Oh, crap. Now what? Erm … when?
Soon as I’m ready.
Oh, well get you! When You’re ready? Prepared? Rehearsed? Know all the answers? Darling may as well insert his head into a bank safe and ask Jackie Baillie to slam the door! No way! We withdraw! So there!
This is easy, let Dennis Canavan debate with Darling on the BBC, and our First Minister can debate with Darling after the games on STV, if there’s anything left of him after he’s been Canavaned.
“ONE of them must be telling the truth”
Not so fast! STV might have backed out which means they could both be fibulising.
The interesting thing about being on the canvass is that there is a particular type of voter who, when asked says that they’re a No. When asked where they are on the scale of one to ten, they say 1 or 2. If you can manage to draw them into conversation they reveal that they take the Daily Express or Mail and watch BBC News. They aren’t getting info from anywhere else.
Once you sow some doubt in their minds and point them to other sources they show a distinct shift towards Undecided. In my view, anybody who declares themselves to be 4 or 5 has already decided to vote Yes and is just delaying the move. They aren’t the ones we should be targeting, we should be going for the twos and threes who aren’t crying out for information because Better Together have convinced them that there isn’t any information to get.
@ Jim Thomson
Thanks for the information. I’m planning to attend but there are a few things that I might have to deal with urgently which might prevent it (hope not!). I don’t know anyone undecided!
Hope flipper mentions poverty stricken Ireland where state old age pension is £182.50 compared to UK’s £113.10 and has just been ranked the best place in the world.
link to scotsman.com
IT’s not like Darling to upset anyone… the herald wont be too pleased…
link to heraldscotland.com
Andrew so to sum up we should be helping lazy b#stards to read!lol
Disappointed but not surprised…..wonder what spin the BT can possibly put on this, and really how much longer do they expect to fool the electorate…..not long is my guess. Disgraceful and cowardly!
@Paula Rose
Advice on how to get registered (and huge encouragement!) was given by the canvassers on the day, obv we can only hope that as many as possible actually get round to doing it.
@ Andrew Morton – I find that the Aye Right leaflet hits the spot.
… and here was me thinking that I was the only one who found the YES Scotland website even worse than it was before. Don’t worry folks, send people to Wings, Bella, NewsNet, Wee Ginger Dug, Business for Scotland.
When you hand out Aye Right leaflets or cards always direct people to the site(s) you think are most relevant to them. The YS redesign makes it easy for you, one less to recommend
This is dripping with Transmysogynism.
Your argument is invalid.
I have been away for a few days.How is Mile Dailly getting on with that list? Also what did he say about Salmond? Note Salmond had the dignity to accept false apology and walk away in contrast to certain other groups.Dailly meant it just never meant it to be posted on twitter oops!
I’ve got an idea. Salmond should offer Cameron a debate to be shown on closed circuit at cinemas. Stop letting the TV companies run the schedule. Tell the PM if he doesn’t turn up it will be an empty chair.
As things stand, some Yes talking head really needs to make it explicit: Salmond is NOT the leader of the Yes campaign. He is the leader of the Scottish Government which has independence as a key policy. Cameron is the leader of the UK Government which committed itself in the Queen’s Speech to fighting for the Union. Is Cameron unwilling as PM to defend the policy he has chosen to spend taxpayers’ money on? HMG could have remained neutral and considered it a matter for Scots to decide alone, but this is now government in direct opposition to government. Isn’tthere some maverick Labour or Irish MP who could ask this at PMQs?
Oh what a tangled web of lies and deceit they weave……hurry up 18.09.14 …..
On canvassing – Folk tell me they are undecided, ask them if “Scotland should be an Independent country’ they say Yes, hand them an Aye Right leaflet with a pointer to here or WGD, job done.
Scotland, Darling tells us, has progressed from warring clans to 21st century civilisation by England’s guidance and authority, and, we are assured, is indubitably an advance.
Unfortunately, it’s Darling not Scotland who gives us this assurance.
Well that’s all as clear as mud. Matches with the dirt (mud, dirt.. get it..) Better Together print and speak every day trying to get us to vote nnn…n…n…nnn….
Or… do you think this is the “Forces Of Evil” at work, throwing the whole universe into a unstoppable flux of paradoxical blinking-ness…. (Sheesh, they’re early… Not meant to be here till after the Yes.. and I’ve still the dishes to wash after ma tea)
Jeez,
I go away for a couple of days to recharge the batteries (honestly, that was the plan) and the basic concept of democracy and debate vanishes without trace, witness sought, featuring on Crimewatch next episode.
This confirms my general suspision that Ally D is a cit of a bunt.
O/t sad news about a Yes supporter.
The Scottish FA President, Campbell Ogilvie, has paid tribute to “astute, forward-thinking and passionate” former Chief Executive, David Taylor, who died today, age 60.
European football’s governing body UEFA – for whom David worked with distinction as General Secretary and, more recently, Executive Director – confirmed the sad news after the 60-year-old had taken ill.
A Scotland supporter since childhood, David became the first Chief Executive of the Scottish FA in 1999, succeeding the long-serving secretary, Jim Farry.
“On behalf of his friends and former colleagues at the Scottish FA, and throughout Scottish football in general, I would to express our profound sadness at the tragic news of David’s death,” said the President.
“I would also wish to send our deepest condolences to his wife Cathy, and their children James and Alan, at this dreadful time.
“David was a solicitor to trade but it was his love of Scottish football and, in particular, the Scotland national team that stirred his passion during his tenure as Chief Executive.
Test
I take it BT are spinning this as the First Minister “ducking” the debate ?
As mentioned, if they actually think that, let them suggest the lovely wee pussy cat Mr Canavan take Darling on in place of Mr “scaredy cat” Salmond !
Now here is a thought, now BT think the FM is “feart”, you would think they would try getting Cameron to call him out on the debate..
Call me a seer, but i am pretty sure BT know they are talking gash with the “salmond is feart” line..just a feeling you understand !
That’s a great result in the RIC mass canvass on Sunday.
8,317 people canvassed
40% Yes, 29.5% No, 30.5% undecided
Strip-out undecideds gives: 57.6% Yes, 42.4% No
Surely someone from RIC will inform BBC Scotland of the result and tell them they are available for interview at 7.30am tomorrow morning for their GMS programme. (not 8.45am)
What a disingenuous bunch they are at ‘better together’, spinning like crazy to hide the fact that Alistair Darling has pulled out of the planned debate.
I can only imagine that somewhere within the anti independence campaign they are drawing straws to decide who has to be crucified in a live debate with Salmond. We already know that David Cameron is too feart, now it seem Darling is also feart. I did suggest earlier that with Salmond calling his bluff, Darling might be panicking. I really didn’t expect Darling to pull out so quickly though.
jim Watson, at 9:51pm,
Wow, they are seriously hosting such a meeting with one torye MP and one liberal democrat MP (both of whose parties are jointly in a single Government right now). That really is taking the utter p*ss. Glasgow University credibility running down the plughole.
What do BT, SLAB, BBC, NO THANKS WHATEVER have in common?
They all live in the land of make believe.
@sinky says 9:58 pm
Ireland and Iceland were belly up 4 years ago, their borrowing rate is now lower than prosperous UK and their borrowing rate is lower.
Grousebeater : has the darling loonie ( in north east we always add ie to word ending’s ) had a short circuit
Well done Portree and Skye.BBCs roving reporter on Scotland 2014.Couldnae find any no voters!For once BBC didn’t plant some plumby voiced no voter in.Off the record I am told that 90% of people in Tighnabruich are Yes.This was a conversation in a local cafe I had.Argyll and the isles doing Scotland proud!
@caz-m.
Yes it all sounds very good and I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade, but door canvassing can be notoriously unreliable as many house holders will just say anything to get canvassers off their doorstep. Plus add in the mix of leaning unionist being embarrassed to say their probably going to be voting no.
Saying all that it is encouraging to hear and to see active members going door to door canvassing.
I suppose what I’m saying is not to rest on our laurels and fight for every vote and I do hope people follow up on undecideds, even soft no’s, in their respected areas and give them more information.
Must agree about the comments about the new YES website, we are trying to encourage undecideds to visit a site for information and it is about as user friendly as a pay wall.
Eck is right it should be him that sets the date for it after all he is the FM a busy man where as Darling is just a hinger on ,and anyway why debate with the monkey when the organ grinder has done a runner
That “relaunched” Yes website is just absolutely terrible. Is their a BT mole in the Yes IT department. I’m not beating about the bush because it is virtually unusable. Far too many totally meaningless pictures of smiley faces.
Who is it aimed at? Fighting Project Fear with pictures of babies is embarrassing. Where are the links to ALL the information people are screaming out for. Mr Jenkins, someone needs a kick up the arse and a practical, easy to use site with TONS of information is needed quickly.
If you can’t do it, ask for volunteers and the grass roots will have one up in a week. Jees.
I just don’t understand why they lie ALL the time! The stuff they print, I get it, they use half truths to tell lies…but that is blatant! Makes you so frustrated to think when you’re debating with people that they’ll say “Oh, Alex withdrew” etc etc and when you tell them the truth they will think you’re trying to cover for it when in reality THEY are the ones being lied to.
They truly will sink to any depth, including blatantly decieving their own people. If I were a Yes supporter and found out our side were doing that, I would genuinely question everything they would say.
@Sinky says
2nd that about David Taylor of SFA
Top Bloke and true Scot (No Proud Scot nonsense)
Yes Website has been very poor from the start.
A lot worse now sadly.
A quote from Willie Rennie in Sunday’s Herald (I know it is 2 days old but I’m out campaigning a lot and behind with my homework!)that Bitter Thegither had received a boost from voter caution “..at the end of the day, if people don’t know they’ll be naturally cautious”
“If you don’t know, then you vote No.”
Now we know why they won’t take part in open debates around Scotland!
I had wondered why ITV News reported on Sunday night that the debate would take place in August.
Aye MCV August 2015!
Disco Dave
“Hey, as long as the mortgage payments are kept up on Chez Shorthouse who cares…”
Goes double for Darling.
At this rate it will be Lamont or ‘help me Rona’ that will be sent to the slaughter.
Not looked at yes scotand site before, seems okay on this browser. If they want any pro bono work I know I’ll do it or betterer people than me
I’d put the links to Labour for Indepence/Greens/LibDems for Indy or otherwise we’re disappearing/and the two Tories who are actually paid their membership (getting serious after this) right up the top of the page.
Because Yes Voters looking at the site are already converted. Get Lib Dems, Labour, Tories who look at the site to go from ‘i’m looking at an indy site’ cause i’m thinking about it, to ‘hey i’m voting Yes”.
If we get the people who are swithering we are thru’
More bluff & bluster from “better together no thank” to hide the fact that they have nothing of substance to bring to the table re why we’re better together & Darling needs to get over himself, he’s a labour back bencher FFS, organ grinder & monkey spring to mind her.
Just vote YES
Hi folks,
I’m not trying to hijack this thread so apologies in advance if anyone is offended. But – any chance some of you kind people could repost this link on your Facebook or Twitter accounts to try and raise a wee bit of cash for the Yes Stirling campaign office?
link to igg.me
We’re still a wee bit short and your extraordinary generosity will make a difference as it has in the past for so many other similar worthy causes on this site.
Better Together Dialect
Darling backs out = Salmond backs out
This just gets better and better (no pun intended). Honestly, ye couldnae make it up.
Think A D is just being polite.
As my old mum used to say “”if you have nothing good to say, better to say nothing.”
Well I for one am quite pleased, I thought it was merely confirming some people’s thoughts that the First Minister was Head of the YES campaign and he isn’t. Cannot help wondering if Darling has holiday’s planned, Western Isle’s bolt hole, where he has already spent much time so far this year, hiding.
Dennis Canavan should offer to have a debate with him in July, make it the BBC. Job done.
I saw this tweet last night and to be honest what it says is par for the course but Rob’s twitter name is just about the most descriptive thing I could imagine for him.
What’s the defining feature of a bungalow?
Nothing upstairs.
Which is what he must think we’ve all got, if he thinks we’ll swallow the line that Alex Salmond pulled out just because he requested an alteration to the date. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t consider a request for an alteration in quite the same vein as a refusal to attend.
Perhaps Better Together could clarify that point for me, given their track record in refusing to attend debates across Scotland based on very, very little justification.
The total censorship by the approved media (particularly the BBC who have a legal duty of “balance”) of a large party of unionist campaign is obscene. Without censorship there would be at least another 10% swing to No.
Please share.
todayinscotland | The Referendum Blues link to todayinscotland.wordpress.com
New post!
I heard Darling was happy with the arrangements, then he just flipped!
Morning Neil
Shift started again : )
Dont Feed The Troll!
Hahahahaha…. that’s probably the funniest thing I’ve heard.
The censorship of the No campaign.
Hahahahahaha….
Nah, don’t feed the troll. Laugh at it.
Clydebuilt says:
25 June, 2014 at 10:02 am
None of this is to do with the Salmond Darling debate….It’s all to do with making another side issue the focal point .To stop the debate focussing on the issues that matter.
When it was first announced that Salmond and Darling were goingto have a STV Debate it did say that it would take place AFTER the Commonwealth Games had ended. First I knew about a supposed July date was in a Better Together press release. I mever saw any confirmationofa date fromeither STV or Alex Salmond’s office.
The First Minister has not changed his stance but the wee Darling has seemingly as he had stated that he would debate with Alex Salmond any time.
As usual it would appear that BT are telling lies and are stll running scared.
Dahling pulling out was as predictable as a false TV smile from Jim Murphy. We also know that somehow it is all Alec Salmond’s fault and anyone who says any different is an evil cybernat.
Clydebuilt says:
To stop the debate focussing on the issues that matter.
I agree. This is clearly now part of No strategy.
Same Project Fear and Smear … but now with Steer Clear … of important news and issues by getting the MSM focused on trivial sidelines.
Actually this makes BT and Darling look utter fools.
Darling only ever kept asking to debate Salmond because he thought he knew that it would not happen.Him and BT shitting themselves as soon as they heard it would go ahead.
Darling is not a debater, get flustered and angry, even his eyebrows twitch. No he would be slaughtered and he and the rest of BT also know it. So the try and spin their way out, no doubt with the help of the BBC et al.
However, it also throws the spotlight on the BBC, as it must be that Darling feels safer with a BBC bias mediator.
He prefers the more biased BBC to try and protect him.
People need to ask why, as the answer is obvious, the BBC IS biased.
@Kev
These “voters” are unregistered.
Are there plans to get them registered?
Especially the yes voters
Les Wilson said: Darling – even his eyebrows twitch.
Not quite. They squirm.
Alisdair’ “Subway moment”. No amount of spin can spin this. Alisdair was called out and bottled it.
“Anyplace anytime has now turned into, no time is suitable and only at the BBC. Sad…..
Grouse Beater says:
Oh, you mean the UNIBROW wiggle!!
salmond and cameron wont debate
come closer and i will tell you but keep it to yourselfs
cameron will be appearing on B.G.T oh yes
he will be singing patsy clines IM SORRY (he seems to keep saying that these days)
and rebecca brooks will be appearing also doing a patsy cline song WHO’S SORRY NOW
and in the background you will be able to see darlings eyebrows line dancing
Entirely O/T.
Just seen on the BBC website… Grand Lodge of the Orange Order registers with Electoral Commission.
No need to guess which side they’ll be on.
But for Better Together, and wider unionism;
You shall be known by the company you keep.
They must be delighted.
Bald eagle: Not that it matters but I thought it was Brenda Lee who sang I’m sorry and Connie Francis sang Who’s sorry now.
@ alexicon and Paula Rose.
Troon debate shifted 61 DKs to YES in one very lively debate!
I am speaking at meetings all over the shop but need my wee daily fix of WoS. We all just need to make sure we aren’t frittering away the hours here when we have so little time left!
WoS is a treat for AFTER your homework!