The broken promise
The first five words of “The Vow” – the solemn pledge made by all three UK party leaders on the eve of the independence referendum – are “The Scottish Parliament is permanent”. This is what happened in the House of Commons this evening when the UK government was asked to make good on that pledge.
Amendment 58, proposed by the SNP and backed by Labour, was actually a modest concession. It provided a way by which Westminster COULD abolish the Scottish Parliament, with its permission and subject to a referendum of the Scottish people.
The amendment contained no tricks or traps. Nothing was tacked onto it to which the UK government could object. It did only what it claimed to do.
(Link live at time of writing but will change. Subsequently it should be found here.)
It would have cost the Conservatives nothing to allow the amendment to pass. It commits them only to do what they said they would do, and in any event was a mere symbolic courtesy – in reality no government can bind the hands of its successor.
But the government voted it down anyway, pointlessly trashing the promise that David Cameron had signed his name to before the referendum.
Readers can, as ever, form their own conclusions.
We have to get out ASAP.
We need independence it is the only way to get a constitutuional convention and a written constitution to protect us from thieves and liars
The union ended tonight.
A clear decision has been taken to render the 56 impotent in Westminster
Then in five years say ‘look,you voted SNP and they achieved nothing’
The Tories will use their majority to vote down every damn thing we ask for
New strategy needed methinks
All because the SNP ganged up with the Tories to scare voters out of voting Labour.
Apparently.
Seems like the expected outcome of Britishers reneging is on its way
I remember a time before we had a Scottish parliament when the general consensus within the ranks of the SNP was that all that was needed to achieve independence was a majority of pro-independence MP’s representing Scotland in Westminster.
We have that now, in spades, so would someone like to explain to me why we’re still playing this game?
I’m not sure how many more insults I can accept on behalf of my country.
The chocolates are rancid.
The flowers have shriveled.
The Union doesn’t even pretend to love Scotland anymore.
It’s divorce proceedings.
They’re arguing over who gets the house.
Aye the promise of having a greater voice in the *ahem* family of U.K. blown apart … AGAIN!
Don’t we all just love the level of (dis)respect currently being shown by WM to the people of Scotland andtheir representatives in WM.
To all the No voters, who with the best of intentions voted NO because of the HOME RULE we were promised by unionists, and that nice David Cameron, who was reportedly ‘almost in tears’ when he visited Edinburgh before the referendum. Here is what you got, NOTHING.
You were of course warned they were a bunch of complete and utter lying *****.
It would seem by the unnecessary actions of Westminster this evening, that the course is now firmly set for independence.
All of this will really help firm up the demands for a referendum, and make a YES vote very likely.
Disgusting.What next from Westminster?
They have also just voted against the SNP proposal that they can’t hold the EU Referendum on the same day as the Scottish Parliament election next May.
We really do luv you Scotland, honest.
Shysted again Scotland. Carmichael style legal defence, THE VOW fraud clearly states, “all three parties agree permanent Scottish parliament starting on 19th September” but we never actually stated which year and Salmond did lie about Scotland in the EU and you voted NO and that’s democratic and you only wanted a referendum every generation, so shut up and piss off back to Holyrood, while we decide what to do with it. Rule Britannia.
I can’t deal with this anymore
Viva la revolution (please excuse any wrong transliteration)
Time to leave!
They can treat us like shit right?
Even IF Nicola decides to put indyref2 on the holyrood 16 agenda Cameron simply won’t sign the agreement for it will he? He will trot out the ‘once in a generation’ crap blah blah.
So Nicola is damned if she does , damned if she doesn’t.
I sincerely hope the SNP cunning plan department have a solution cos I can’t take 5 years of Mundell laughing at us!
Make no mistake, this was a calculated and deliberate boot to the balls for the people of Scotland. Our punishment for not getting back into our box
The Indyref was the end of the beginning.
The trashing of The Vow is the beginning of the end.
We’ve not revived our democracy just for it to be rendered futile. Let the countdown begin
This cannot go on. 2016 needs IndyRef2.
Come on Reverend. The Vow wasn’t a real thing. It was promised by politicians who couldn’t make such a Vow.It had to pass a vote in the Commons. Since it appeared in the Record it hasn’t been taken seriously by anyone except perhaps some wavering voters at the referendum. If another referendum was called it would be a majority for independence. A referendum should be number one promise in the SNP’s manifesto & if there’s a huge vote for SNP in the upcoming Holyrood elections then they should hold another vote for independence a soon as is practicable. The unionists are a shambles. The Yes voters are still out there & would be joined by more who maybe voted No but don’t like the look of the “Promised” land.
…this is just the foreplay!
Close your eyes and think of England.
I keep watching for ‘exceptional cicumstances’ that would trigger another Indy referendum. Is this one?
Come on people, let’s keep the heid. If we press for independence now the Tories might look to deny us our rightful seat on the Northern Lighthouse Board promised to us by Smith.
Priorities, people!
As a watcher of the parliaments over a few years I’m not shocked at all, but many who have never tuned into the machinations of WM will now see what a travesty it is.
But fear not! The hypocrisy and their gloating sense of entitlement is shining through for all to see.
It will be widely reported by the Record etal I am sure
Scotland will be an independent nation again.
Are you all sure about this. I see nothing on the BBC website. Ach it’ll be on GMS in the morning i’m sure.
How long are we going to put up with being taken for a ride?????
They’re pissing on us and laughing at the same time. Time to stand up Scotland and walk the walk.
We all lost with the NO vote, but some of the village idiots still try and shoot down this fact.
What we see here today, is a country, in a political union, that is being denied any say or voice for the people it represents. (Actually apply that to most residents of the UK, last I checked no referendum was held for RBS or Royal Mail as 2 sterling examples).
In any other part of the world that is called a dictatorship. I know studying politics, and a lot of history we technically live in a Feudal system which is the next worst thing.
F’ck this generation shit, when the time is right, the time is right.
Did we expect anything else?
Of course they were going to break their word, the establishment suffer no competition or perceived threat to their authority.
Time for some folks out there to start asking themselves some serious questions. Just how many more broken pledges will it take?
Message to SNP…Get it into the manifesto and get us out of this.
No more London liars…We’ve had enough…Independence NOW.
Don’t worry we’re still going to get control of our road signs..Yay
Readers have; one hopes that previous “No” voters will have done so too, but I hae ma doots.
As much as this makes us all grimace, it’s also something that we need to happen. What I mean by that, is for Westminster (or basically the Tories and the Establishment) to begin cutting loose on Scotland (as well as the rest of the UK).
The Scottish people want a bigger voice in Westminster. Ha Ha Ha …sure!
The people of Scotland want near-Federalisation. Forget it!
The people of Scotland want more Tax Raising Powers. Keep Dreaming!
The Scottish people want their Parliament made sovereign. Nahhhh!
The people of Scotland want to remain in the EU. You’ll get what England wants.
The people of Scotland want a veto in the EU Referendum. You think! Ha!
And this is just in the last few weeks.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait till the axe begins to swing and the cuts get implemented. Wait till people are literally living in fear of trying to make ends meet while Bankers continue to get bonuses (do you really believe Carney and Osborne to end the ‘Banking Bonus’ culture?) What’s next? What if they fancy making changes to our Education System so that it runs more in line with England’s?
Personally though, it’s the EU that could be the breaker in everything. I wonder what will really happen if the EU decides that there will be no changes to two of the key pillars that the EU was built on (Human Rights Act and Freedom of Movement)?
Not only does it leave Cameron under the intense gaze of his own backbenchers, but how will the media react? Not too well I suspect! And it means that the EU could call Cameron’s bluff. And when the crapper hits the fan at this point with Backbenches howling to the rafters, the media frothing at the mouth, and Cameron looking like a lame duck PM, then something is going to give.
That will be a very interesting moment for Scotland and the Scottish people. A lot of masks are going to drop, and a lot of opinions will be heard …especially if our First Minister is doing a lot of visits to Brussels at this point. Will that be the moment when the people of Scotland finally decide ‘…enough!’.
Who knows?
A timely warning to the tories from PC
link to tinyurl.com
That’s the first 5 words rubbished.
Now for the rest of it.
Well, who would have thought this would have happened?
I am still waiting on the Daily Record top duo of Foote and Clegg replying to my tweet on the subject…
The final Indyref is getter nearer by the minute and they brought it upon themselves.
Karma or what?
Don’t worry, the Record will hold them to account.
And Gordon Brown will launch or hijack a petition to hold them to account.
Did Labour actually vote with the SNP?
‘The clock is ticking; but can Westminster MPs tell the time?’
Dafydd Wigley from Luigi link.
By whatever means necessary, we have to get away from these people now.
Like I said last September: the referendum was our Battle of Methven. They thought that was it: Scotland is gone, their heroes are dead or defeated, their hope lost.
Let’s not wait seven years for our Bannockburn.
I think the 56 have played a blinder.
La perfide Angleterre. Those French knew what they were talking about alright.
Now that WM has refused us FFA because we are too stupid to realise that it will cost all Scots £5000 per annum would we have a case now to tell WM that because the SNP has 56 of the 59 seats that we have decided to leave the UK.
Did the UK tectonic plates just move further apart tonight?
It’s for the people of Scotland to decide, if OUR parliament is permanent or not.
Dictatorship in action in Westminster tonight. I’m sure all those that have called the Scottish Government dictatorial will understand now that they have been wrong when they see their vows and promises dropped by their trusted bettertogether Tory masters.
“Did Labour actually vote with the SNP”?
I’m not sure but I suspect as labour claim to have produced Holyrood the should have.
If they voted that Holyrood could be disolved at the whim of the Tory WM Government in WM they would be er…toast.
OH! They already are burnt toast in Scotland.
So there we have it Scottish Government can be removed (but no change there then) So Smith’s recommendation ignored.
As stated above we had to go through all this so that most of those who voted no could see Scotland and it’s people humiliated.
The only way is up! Independence in the next Manifesto. 🙂
For Cameron, as the only man left standing, it’s a case of ‘that was then, this is now’
It will require radical and lateral thinking to move toward indy2. However, if anyone’s up to the task it’s Sturgeon.
Cameron’s downfall is his confidence. Right up until the last minute he was confident he’d trounce the YES campaign, then panicked, breached purdah and got lucky. Now he thinks he was clever instead of lucky he’ll run the EU referendum in exactly the same way.
This may be slightly different. Only UKIP, as a party, want out. That puts everyone else on the same side, allegedly. Cameron would be quite happy to share a platform on this with anyone/everyone. SNP won’t share a campaign with them but will Labour? If they do it again they’re dafter than even I thought! But if they don’t they certainly won’t do business with SNP either. So three separate, major campaigns, Tory, Labour and SNP/Plaid/Green.
But for Dave he’ll have his own party ripping itself apart, there’s no vote except the referendum itself so its only a case of openly lending support to one side or the other in the campaign. If Dave can’t keep his MPs in line on this and they campaign for withdrawal it’s entirely possible they’ll be successful and we’ll be out of Europe. Aside from any other repercussions it would kill the Tories and propel UKIP towards power, Labour could be crushed underfoot also.
In this perfect storm Scotland would have the moral right to call another referendum, if not UDI.
Failure to gain independence at that point would be utterly disastrous. A sitting far right government would have nothing to lose by ramping up the rhetoric for hatred of the Scots and would plunder us and emasculate Holyrood.
@ Alan Crerar 9:52pm – well said and I totally agree. You have got one totally pissed off man here on your side.
Here endeth the union.
had just finished this post when I read the news here.
Like Alba Scotia in the story, I’m gutted.
Onwards and upwards, people of Scotland
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Evidence to back previous comment.
What did the Scotland bill achieve today……NOTHING
Amendment 58 defeated Westminster can still disband SP
Amendment 89 defeated no FFA
Clause3 defeated no extra powers for SP
Clause 5 defeated SP does not have consent to repeal Human Rights bill
What is the point?
Call Me Dave
Angus Robertson has tweeted:
‘Labour in total mess on Full Fiscal Autonomy: abstaining on both FFA amendments to Scotland Bill (while Dennis Skinner voted with @theSNP)’
Will those who can please get this onto Facebook. This has to go viral
Another defeat
Clause10 defeated SEWAL CONVENTION no STAT FOOTING
Nothing of any consequence was achieved with this Scotland Bill!
@gillie says: 15 June, 2015 at 9:08 pm:
“The union ended tonight”
Nah! Gillie, the Union ended the instant they decided to scrap the bipartite United Kingdom Parliament as, (at least in theory), a marriage of two equally sovereign Kingdoms and made it into an abortion of four countries with three of them with different levels of devolve functions. Then made the United Kingdom Parliament into the de facto parliament of England with no one elected as English Parliament members.
That made the reality a parliament of England devolving English powers to the other former UK countries and thus England ruling over everyone else.
And, gillie, you are seeing that demonstrated before your eyes if you are now watching Westminster in Action live as I am.
There are 533 English Members of parliament, (masquerading as UK MPs), voting down anything whatsoever that 56 of the 59 Scottish members of the UK parliament want even when the proposals before them were proposed by mainly UK MPs.
It stands out, like the proverbial sair thumb, that in such situations at Westminster all Unionist members from England take off their UK hats and don their England hats.
In any case, even if they did pass a bill or an amendment to the bill. It will just get changed and thrown out by the HOL by the shower of union sycophants eager to earn their £300 for services to England.
@Graeme Doig:
Thanks! Interesting. So where did the extra 150 or so votes come from in one of the votes?
Thank god for electronic voting at Holyrood that place just reeks of decay and stagnation.
Well we don’t need a weather vane to know what way the wind blows darn sarf! 🙂
[…] link to wingsoverscotland.com […]
Despair not, pop-pickers. As ever, this rock combo has the answer. The Establishment don’t know it yet, but they are doomed.
They’re half-way down the road already.
link to m.youtube.com
To quote one of the great Scottish wordsmiths…
“David Cameron’s making you eat his arsehole and simultaneously sneering at you for not knowing what kind of wine goes best with his arsehole …”
I didn’t think it was possible to see anything more farcical than Michael White’s moustache until I watched day one of the Scotland bill.
Tonight I am speechless. I literally have no voice in this accursed co joining of Nations.It is not a Union.My chosen representatives are ignored and dismissed simply for representing the voice of Scotland.
My pride as a Scot is gnawing at me like indigestion. I cannot understand my countrymen who envisage this as acceptable.They are beyond my comprehension.
“DING-DING”, Referendum again please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dirty lying BASTARDS>
Do I think the establishment is trying to provoke us?
Yes, I do.
Do I think we should rise to the bait? No I don’t.
We need to keep the heid. Most especially now. Change is inevitable but we need some patience and fortitude to get through the sh!tstorm they’re going to throw at us.
@Peter says: 15 June, 2015 at 9:10 pm:
” … New strategy needed methinks”
Dinna be daft min. This will show, and prove beyond any doubt, that the Establishment is indeed the de facto parliament of the country of England and Scotland is treated by the m as their vassals, underlings, slaves or, as the Smurph called us today, “Insurgents”, in our own country where the SNP are the Government and where Scots have just sent 56 of the 59 Members of the de facto parliament of England to fight for Scotland.
Now anyone, who ever thought otherwise, can see the obvious – the set-up in the so called United Kingdom is not a democratic place.
There may even be a case for the Scottish Government to take to the Council of Europe, EU or even the United Nations.
Thanks for posting that video Stu.,
I was watching the vote unfold at the same time as your good self.
This is actually getting interesting.
This post is written from the perspective of a lifelong Labour voter – until 2007 when I started to “lend” my vote to the SNP. This became a permanent SNP vote as a result of SNP COMPETENT & GOOD GOVERNANCE over the past 8 years.
After 18th September 2014 and seeing how Labour disgraced themselves I shall NEVER vote Labour again. I suspect there are MANY ex-Labour voters in this grouping. If Scottish Labour think they will recover and we will all go back they are dillusional.
My main point? That was a petty pernicious putrid political piece of avarice shown by the Government in THAT vote. It would have cost them nothing to concede, and would honour a minuscule part of their “respect Scotland” promise.
The result? I reckon there are many like me who were ambivalent about Independence a couple of years ago, but who will now work very hard to help make Independence happen.
Labour should really take a look at themselves. There are a significant number of former Labour voters like me who have left, and who, with New Labour misconduct and failure to learn any lessons, are now wishing to get the country of our birth away from that Palace of Millionaire Ministers, most of whom couldn’t give a toss about mere mortals.
Roll on Indy2.
The current “debate” and disrespect of the Tories to Scotland WILL now result in Indy2 being a YES vote.
They are stupid if they think we all sailed up the Clyde on a water biscuit.
Time is fast approaching when we can be rid of that crumbling Victorian Palace and those toxic Tories – both the blue rinse and the bloody red varieties on either side of the green benches.
The Daily Record, which carried the promises which today have been broken, is now, surely, a laughing stock.
It has shown itself to be an easy and willing mouthpiece of an establishment which has reneged on the “scoop” it was so willing to publish and treated it as a silly, gullible fool.
Its dwindling band of readers must be made aware of its incompetence.
Ah! the Union.
Scotland will have to battle hard to get Independence, here is a few reasons why.
Westminster will be needing Billions spent on refurbishment.= More Debt for Scotland.
Aunty Bettys ever growing hangers on continuing to get sprogged up.= More Debt for us.
England winning a bid for the World Cup= More Debt for us
And on it goes.
England is bankrupt and needs Scotland to keep it afloat.
Its time to cast England adrift.
@Clootie
Aye rough wooing indeed. More to come tomorrow.
Watched BBC Scotland 10.30pm news bulletin. Not a peep on this, only coverage of the voting down of FFA amendment.
I suppose the defeat of a provision to entrench our national parliament by our ‘national’ broadcaster just ain’t newsworthy.
@Peter says: 15 June, 2015 at 9:41 pm:
“They can treat us like shit right?
Even IF Nicola decides to put indyref2 on the holyrood 16 agenda Cameron simply won’t sign the agreement for it will he? He will trot out the ‘once in a generation’ crap blah blah.
So Nicola is damned if she does , damned if she doesn’t.
I sincerely hope the SNP cunning plan department have a solution cos I can’t take 5 years of Mundell laughing at us!”
Ah! So you are the duty Troll tonight? Is this when the Establishment changes your shifts?
After watching tonight’s developments at Westminster I think it is time a new Yes organisation be set up to lobby for a second referendum and amass funds for that future referendum. It should be all party and none.
The Tory MP Edward Gardner got it right, Westminster have not learned the lessons from Ireland in the 1920’s.
Bob Mack i sympathise with you. I’m coming back from my home in France for a visit and will have to try and keep my cool with my low information no voting brothers.
Erm … is this poll something to be excited about? :0 😀
link to icmunlimited.com
I left Scotland in 1976 and met and married a wonderful English girl three years later and we eventually bought our house in her home village in Kent.
We have two kids who are now in their 30s, we have raised them to be as democratic and have an understanding of others less fortunate than themselves as possible…we are rightly proud of them.
I joined the SNP last year and I am a very proud member, however…token protest? Make your own mind up.
My dismay recently on the vilification of The SNP by the Establishment has only been surpassed by my daughter asking me last night; “Dad, why is someone comparing you to a Nazi?”
We are approaching difficult times and I use that word carefully.
[…] The broken promise […]
@The Knome! says: 15 June, 2015 at 9:57 pm:
“What we see here today, is a country, in a political union, that is being denied any say or voice for the people it represents. (Actually apply that to most residents of the UK, last I checked no referendum was held for RBS or Royal Mail as 2 sterling examples).”
Well that’s wrong for starters. This Establishment is legally a United Kingdom. A bipartite union of two Kingdoms.
Only one Kingdom in that union is also a country and the Parliament of England is where – exactly?
It’s all necessary to confirm to the unaware,the true nature of Westminster and Unionism.
These world renowned hypocrites and liars have to be shown to all Scots that nothing they utter,no matter how innocuous, is to be believed – ever.
The hard core BritNat styled Scottish Unionists are of the same character,so it is the soft No,naive Scots who may have some scales removed from their eyes by this.
For that we should perhaps be grateful.
I expected the winning side to bray and cheer,thought that the silence was quite creepy – maybe ol’ pterodactyl heid was in the public gallery as he was in town to do his valedictory speech.
Exactly!Why are we still in this union? We can achieve nothing at Westminster. How does this parliament serve the Scottish people.
I say be brave and call for a referendum. We have nothing to fear. The endless Westminster Tory machine is killing us every day. Its like being on a bus when you wanted off 5 stops ago and are a long way from home.
I feel like crying every time I hear BBC going on about the English Magna Cartar as if it was a UK constitution, guests on chat shows saying England,our national football team ignored by BBC, endless stories about Bradford Muslims being radicalised,anti European casual racism. This is little England this is what no voters gave us. Thanks a fucking bunch!
If anything Scotland is in a worse position after a no vote in the referendum. We are now treated like unwelcome visitors.
Rev wrote:
“The first five words of “The Vow” – the solemn pledge made by all three UK party leaders on the eve of the independence referendum – are “The Scottish Parliament is permanent”. This is what happened in the House of Commons this evening when the UK government was asked to make good on that pledge.”
Westminster says:
Scotland can GTF and be grateful we’re your masters.
Rennie, Davidson and Gray must now be confronted on this issue and pressed for a response because they have all promoted the permanency lie to their fellow Scots and their London masters have just reneged big style and pished all over Scotland.
Speak out now or watch your parties get utterly decimated.
The filthy DR & BBC must also be held responsible for fooling Scotland into this disgustingly embarrassing situation. We are a fricken laughing stock thanks to these Unionist gophers.
Dafydd Wigley has it right. It’s 1885 all over again, but this time the Torys won’t get 30 years to deliver – and in the modern world they cannot use violence.
The option of locking up Sturgeon as they did to Irish Party leaders is not a runner (though Spain is threatening it with Catalonia).
They can publish falsehoods and calumny as they did against Irish leaders. But the Internet can counter this.
Having worked in England in top 100 companies, I have personally seen how limited the vision of their privately educated so-called elite is. I have met old Etonians who don’t realize Wales is in the UK or has its own language.
I’d say that Cameron and his advisors simply don’t get it – rather than thinking they can get away with it. If you live in the London media bubble you simply don’t have any idea that other ways of looking at the world exist in any real way.
They probably don’t realize the impact of their actions and think this SNP nonsense will blow over.
On one vote tonight, SNP, Plaid & Green were joined by Tory rebels
Its another teamGB black out in the press BBC etc. Must be weird having total control of the British press creep show but guess who this is?
He said: “There will be another referendum whenever the SNP can get away with it.
“Why wouldn’t there? If you are an insurgent nationalist party with unprecedented power and with an absolute majority… why wouldn’t you try and engineer a set of circumstances to get you another referendum?
“My frustration is that Cameron is so lame-assly dumb on it that he is set to stumble into it and give them the excuse to do it.”
Try and engineer a set of circumstances or, vote NO for the biggest fraud in Scottish history.
Its creepy Jim Morphy, like you didn’t know.
Rancid The Graun attack John Swinney for being a jumped up little shit from their Scottish region. Five more years of this lot…
And when IndeyRef#2 comes along, the British Establishment will start all over again, makin more false promises: “Okay–we’ll give you Home Rule this time–we really, really will. Honest. Just stay Scotland and give us one more chance.”
And you know what–some here in Scotland will actually swallow their crap again.
Marcia at 11.13
Count me in. The sooner the better
Never in my whole life have I been so angry,my blood is boiling over with contempt,how dare they,it’s time for us to get out of this despicable union,I don’t pretend that I am an expert on politics,rather the opposite,but I am astute enough to see we are being sold out,they are laughing at us,sneering,because they think the Scott’s are afraid to to walk away,they say it is the pensioners who didn’t want independence,Well I am a pensioner,and I voted yes and I know many others who also voted yes,we were lied to before and laughed at after afterwards,they did us wrong and the landslide victory in the GE proved that we won’t be treated like a second class race,the people of Scotland know the Tory government never intended to uphold the promise they made,and they will find out that we won’t forgive or forget,it’s time we broke away,enough is enough
There will be no turning back now, the Eglish parliament has been forced to show its true colours to the brave no voters. So there is no claiming you thought the English Parliament was fair and honest because it ain’t.
I am now certain Scotland will be independent. The more they bully us the more they laugh at us just beds the resentment in deeper. The spring is being wound up by the unionists, let them be. He who laughs last laughs longest.
Bight the bullet and follow and support our National leaders, they will tell us what to do and when.
Remember: SLOWLY, SLOWLY CATCH THE MONKEY. Not too slow I hope, I’m an old man!
FREEDOM!
By my reckoning that will be another 100000 new SNP members by Christmas.
If Mr Mundell said “Look,Mr Brown promised the nearest thing you can have to federalism when one constituent part is 85% of the whole,and that’s what we’re proposing” it would at least be honest.But that’s not what he’s saying,is it? He’s using weasily words to try to keep devo maxers hanging on.
Napoleon – “never interrupt your enemy when he is making mistakes.”
This is a great opportunity for us provided that the Holyrood government use it properly whenever possible.
It must be the only topic on any TV appearances and FMQ’s must hold the shysters to account. Rennie, Dugdale and Davidson have promised to support the permanence of Holyrood. Let’s see what they say about this.
Hammer their perfidy on every possible occasion.
O/T.
I’m watching a recording of Scotland Tonight.
Laughably they are trotting out Torquil, and a couple of ex-Labour MPs. Mind you it may have been hard to get Scottish MPs seeing as there were three of them at Westminster voting against Scotland and 56 voting for Scotland and the SNP MSPs probably glues to their TV sets watching Westminster and STV probably couldn’t afford to send someone to Westminster to interview anyone.
Anyway it’s still on so I’ll wait and see before getting under the duvet.
Peter, Under what conditions should we had voted? You already know that even if we had voted all Labour, we would had not made any better!!! Get a grip!!!
This way we will know and every one in Scotland will know that we will always be at the mercy of English MP’s…
That way, like on the referendum for the Scottish Parliament, the second referendum will be a resounding Yes because Scots will finally get it!!!
Those shenanigans prove just that Scottish people aren’t important in the UK!!!
Clap thon wallie dugs,
Put them awa.
Now we’re mair gleg-eared.
An’ ken the sleek an’ tricket een.
We know that Westminster politicians lie. Malcom Bruce confirmed that. However, is there not a convention that they mustn’t mislead the House? Should we not expect an apology and correction of Hansard for Mundell’s misstatement?
Peter says @ 15 June, 2015 at 9:10 pm
A clear decision has been taken to render the 56 impotent in Westminster
A fair assumption but it also puts Scottish unionists in a corner where they have to justify this strategy.
The only way that Scottish unionists can do this is to continue the spin that Scotland is weak, dependent on the union and needs the status quo to continue. It will make them look stale and out of touch to an increasingly confident forward looking electorate who expects more from their politicians. As a result, it will put them in a terminal decline.
Of course the unionists can delude themselves that they will be saved once the ‘silent majority’ wakens up to the separatist nonsense but IMHO, this ‘silent majority’ that are implied a lot by the MSN in relation to the SNP dominance of our political scene is every bit annoyed by the unionist lack of vision as those who want change.
Hello there Graeme Doig,
Not been on for a while. Work commitments and helping local SNP branch get our candidate ready for Holyrood election.
Hope you and the family are doing well.
Watched that fiasco tonight from Westminster and one of the first tasks I will be carrying out when I get off this oil rig will be to get the YES Saltire flying again in the garden.
Burstin with energy for another Indy Ref. Ronnie Anderson, just say the word.
This is just the beginning
The good stuff’s about to happen tomorrow and for the next two days
Wait for Thursday afternoon
re “The Scottish Parliament is permanent”.
No obvious place on The Record’s site to pose questions about the Vow
Any ideas on how to publicly question the Rancid?
@Cadogan Enright 11.28pm
I think you are right, there is a real issue with the ruling class that ordinary people just don’t get – they have been bred for this, and their prep makes sure they steam ahead, providing for their class.
I honestly think the boarding schools, old Etonian way makes them very detached, lacking in empathy, totally unconcerned about the impact on the plebs – that is of no concern as they plough towards their goals.
The more you watch Cameron, Osborne etc., the more you see it. Its almost sociopathic.
The Parliament of Fools
link to youtube.com
after this affront to Scotland and her people, Nicola & the SNP MUST respond. They are our Democratically elected representatives and voice our collective will, Westminster cannot ignore them. I almost believe Cameron is purposefully employing this tactic to prove to the Scots how powerless they are, in so far as saying “60 out of 600 is meaningless”.
A stand must be made and a Declaration of intent to include a second Independence Referendum clause in the 2016 Scottish Parliament Elections be declared by the SNP, instituted by the complete failure to honour “The Vow” (Sic !) and the potential of Scotland’s Succession from the E.U. against her will.
Lets call Cameron’s bluff, he’s a windbag (or frae the Scots … a bawbag) and if he threatens the illegality of the vote, Europe will shun him and we employ our Scots Law “The People are Sovereign” …. which he has admitted.
I’m totally with Marcia on the idea of a crowd funded appeal as the political awareness of Scots is now at a trajectory which only a few years ago would have been unthinkable !!!
caz-m
Amazing. Just thinking we hadn’t heard from you for a while.
Greetings from dry land bud. Count me in.
well personally i think this is all great and is exactly what i had hoped they would do.
Its time folks for us to get a petition for indyref2 together and get back out in the high streets,the SNP are waiting for us to give them a mandate for 2016 so lets do it and show those westminster scumbags its not the SNP they should be worried about but the sovereign people of Scotland.
Remember when the people reacted to the poll tax, then the Iraq war… I don’t know how to do it but we need to get out on the streets..not with trouble in mind…a peaceful gathering asking those who believe in Scotland to join us..make it big something that will inspire and keep the momentum going..sometimes you have to seize the day!
link to m.youtube.com
We all could/did guess that this was going to happen,still a shock to see everything voted down. Westminster will give nothing when they think the union is already saved.
This is just the start.
We will get absolutely nothing from the Smith commission through the Commons and the House of Lords.
Nothing- absolutely nothing.
Indyref2 has to be in the manifesto of the SNP, Greens and SSP for SE16.
Then we will see if people vote for it and with the precedent of the Edinburgh Agreement get a second referendum.
If blocked then we have no option left but to declare UDI.
Enough is enough.
Question for the constitutional experts.
Do the SNP need to wait till 2016 for the Scottish Parliamentary elections or could the stand down and call a snap election with Indy in their manafesto.
You guys are all mental!!
The “Vow” was delivered ages ago,it was in all the papers and on the BBC news channels…!!
What do you mean they fibbed?
That Mr Cameron looks so trustworthy as well !!
I think perhaps some erroneous assumptions are being made.
1. Most of the No voters were taken in by the Vow. How can we know that? I suspect most of the No voters were happier to remain British, with or without any Vow. That may still pertain no matter what Cameron does. Don’t forget that a fair percentage who voted SNP in May quite possibly do not want independence.
2.An indyref 2 would succeed. If the first referendum was stolen from us, why would we not assume that a second wouldn’t be similarly manipulated?
3. That any referendum on Europe could possibly return an Out vote, under any circumstances. See above on a second indyref. That removes one of the red lines for the SNP that would trigger the demand for another referendum.
4. That the majority of Scots are able to access and analyse information the way we do on this site and others. We wingers, courtesy of Stu and other posters, live in an information bubble. The bubble may be getting larger but how long will it take to become big enough to encompass the majority of Scots? For that will be the only time the SG could even think of demanding a second referendum, barring the above mentioned EU exit.
5. That we even need to have another plebiscite at all. If Holyrood returns a majority of independence MSPs and we have a huge majority already in Westminster, that constitutes a mandate for independence and we could apply to the UN on a parliamentary rather than plebiscite basis to petition for independence without asking rUK permission. Other countries have successfully done this and it avoids the possibility of repeated sukulduggery, if you get my drift.
Just some thoughts to ponder.
If this were Ireland they would fear us but we’re not so they don’t
And that’s because they’re stupid
“Tories, tramps, and thieves
Westminster`s full of crooks like these
But every night the lobbyists come around
And lay their money down”
Like others have said above, this is the trigger for a grassroots campaign to publicise the utter perfidy of WM, and raise funds for the next round.
We can’t leave it all to the SNP. Scottish Gov are constrained by the system in various ways: they have to focus on straining their arguments through the sieve of a hostile media, and avoid worrying feartie soft-naws.
A non-party-aligned campaign can be much more blunt and direct in showing up the lies and spite of the Onionites. Mass demos, anyone? Billboard Posters? Bus shelter ads? Banners on blimps? Occupy-style tent city outside Pacific Quay? YesFest?
We need to get the message out of the virtual world, and onto the streets! At this stage, nearly everybody on social/new media who can be persuaded has been persuaded.
Some of our compatriots ARE too poor (to forget about day to day survival for long enough to question the propaganda), and some ARE too stupid (to imagine that the MSM would lie to them). The message has to be presented to those people in really simple terms, in a really direct, physical way.
Some of our compatriots are viscerally and unredeemably unionist. But even if they make up 25% of the population (I doubt it’s that many), that leaves another 25% who will come to see the truth, if it’s laid out for them.
And it’s that last 25% who need to see evidence in their streets and workplaces and pubs and bowling clubs that UKOK is no longer the respectable, socially-conforming position. A lot of people have a lifelong strategy of staying in the middle of the herd above all other concerns. No harm to them, there’s safety in numbers. When the herd has clearly moved, they’ll move too.
Blimps. We need blimps.
I’m sick and tired of playing by Westminster rules.
If we continue to play these people under their terms and conditions we are forever destined to fail. We need to come up with a better battle plan, a no nonsense gloves off approach.
We don’t need to be violent about it but we do need to take a more robust tone and take no prisoners approach.
There is an old saying which goes along the lines of “if you don’t ask you don’t get.” Well, Scotland’s been asking and grovelling for hundreds of years and she still doesn’t get.
It’s time we stopped begging and start taking what is ours.
Given what happened in The HoC yesterday and the obvious signs of the way that WM is going to ride roughshod over the aspirations of Scots by fair means or foul (mostly foul) how about another March To & Rally on Edinburgh’s Calton Hill.
Can I suggest holding it during The Edinburgh Festival when plenty of the world’s media are in town and preferably on the weekend of The Television Festival when the movers and shakers of broadcasting are present.
Sounds like a good idea there Gus.
They thought by winning in September that we would all just roll up and crawl back into our wee boxes. Apparently the memo to inform us all to do that went missing. We now have the situation where we are standing fast and calling the unionists out at every turn and they don’t like it up ’em as a certain corporal used to say. 😀
Nicola will have to prepare very well and make allies outwith rUK. Indy Ref 2 is coming and we have to win it.
I have a feeling the images of an empty House echoing before the ranks of the assembled SNP and a few lonely Tory and Labour MPs will speak volumes to the public before anything else.
This vote is Empire speak for ‘we own you’.
So now it’s official – Scotland is a colony.
@ Marcia and Dave Mc Ewan Hill.
This time the leadership of the Yes campaign need to have some real fire in the belly for independence. I always felt that Blair (there ye go, I’ve forgotten his last name!) was merely performing a paid role.
We need some big hitters to lead the campaign.
@Gerry Parker
I agree that we need big hitters to lead the campaign.
But we need to involve all that further our cause.
E.g. I am no fan of Tommy Sheridan, I’m really not, but he was under-utilised in the referendum. His performance on (I think it was) the Sunday Politics with Andrew Neil was brimming with energy.
Lesley Riddoch, Jeanne Freeman et al will win hearts & more importantly minds.
The vow has been broken, let’s nail the currency issue, convince senior citizens their pensions are safe & it’s in the bag.
And after all this they will still bleat about English Votes for English Laws and the West Lothian Question. Arseholes.
We need Nicola/SNP to announce that the Westminster parties who
have broken yet another promise/vow to the Scottish people have just added the call for another referendum to the SNP manifesto.
Has Harman come out with a statement after all they continue this claim that they will listen to the Scottish people?
Has the distorted Daily Wrecker put this story on their front page declaring themselves to be misleading liars?
Has BBC against Scotland made headlines of this dramatic headline? Not likely as they are only there to keep the Plebs at bay.
Gordon Brown and Cameron personal promise to deliver Home Rule, a near federal state? Let’s hear from them today to hear their action plan to keep their promises.
Never, Never can we listen or read a word from these corrupt money grabbing liars.
It seems that they didn’t learn anything from Irish history.
The injustice and frustrations of younger Scots could cascade into criminal activities against Westminster if they do not see sense and act responsibly.
@ gerry parker. This time around we dont need Paid Corperate Excecutives ( playing political niceties) a grassroots lead Administration people with Fire in their Belly,as you say, but passion.No need of big Fancy Offices in Glasgow & campain material in a warehouse in E/Kilbride.
One stop shops in every Region + Hubs in the bigger Towns.
Every slight is another nail in westminster’s coffin.
By the time they are finished it will look more like an Iron Maiden!!
Welcome to FULL FISTAL AUTONOMY.
Make no mistake, that’s what just happened. And it’s going to continue. I’m certain SNP drivers aren’t shocked, and they will have a medium term plan to use this organized hostility to all things Scottish. The establishment clearly think we’ll all realize that SNP are too wee to matter, and we’ll see sense next ge and get back in the bi-party groove, or just stop voting and leave it to those who count.
I love the idea of a march in Edinburgh during the festival, and will certainly be there.
Meantime, I’d like to see NS, JS, etc, explain our case to the wider Scots public in simple terms; record/mail readers generally voted no, and papers don’t come much simpler than that, so lets get through to the great misled. I’m sure the lack of information they receive lets them assume all is well.
The English want EVEL – What happened to SVSL.
Should it not be the Scottish people who decide on this?
Grant says:
16 June, 2015 at 7:54 am
The English want EVEL – What happened to SVSL.
Should it not be the Scottish people who decide on this?
Well, quite. I believe that was the thinking behind the SNP proposal that the Scottish Parliament will in future claim powers rather than waiting to be granted them. I have a fair idea of how that amendment will go down too.
@ Ronnie at 7:44
…and a wings stall in every Town!
🙂
Majestic12 2.46,
thanks for that bit of calm and common sense.We are nothing like strong enough yet to fight and beat the entire British establishment in a referendum.We are at the beginning again.We have to build towards it.On point number 5,I think the international community would take a very dim view of a UDI when the democratic process is patently far from being exhausted.
So far this has not made the main stream news outlets, just another boring day in Westminster.
I think we are witnessing the meltdown of the UK. They cannot keep up with the momentum that is Scottish politics
Keep up the good work Wings this is education in the broadest sense.
I know this has been maddening for many observers, although most of us knew that this is what was going to happen after a No vote.
I would like to point out a sensible contribution to the debate by Sir Edward Leigh. Although he demonstrated that he doesn’t have the slightest idea of what Barnett is for or how it works, he made these observations in the debate yesterday:
Sir Edward Leigh:
I believe that, if we maintain the current Smith formula, combined with English votes for English laws, we will create a toxic mixture that will propel the Union towards collapse.
The Smith commission was a rapid scissors-and-tape job in response to a vow that was hastily put together by panicked Unionist politicians in the last days of the referendum campaign. Perhaps it was adequate for its time, but I have read it very carefully—it is not that long—and it has now been overtaken by events.
I say to the Government that there is such a thing as democracy. The Smith commission has been rejected. We cannot just plough on regardless. We have to listen to what the people have said.
So perhaps we have a friend or two in that place.
Some excellent posts on here this morning. People are frustrated and angry, but what to do next?
Majestic is spot on. ”Some people assume that the majority of Scots are able to access and analyse information the way we do on this site and others. We wingers, courtesy of Stu and other posters, live in an information bubble. The bubble may be getting larger but how long will it take to become big enough to encompass the majority of Scots?”
How many people WILL be made aware of the latest development via MSM? Ziltch I would think.
Barney Thomson says ”The Daily Record, which carried the promises which today have been broken, is now, surely, a laughing stock. It has shown itself to be an easy and willing mouthpiece of an establishment which has reneged on the “scoop” it was so willing to publish and treated it as a silly, gullible fool. Its dwindling band of readers must be made aware of its incompetence.”
Pressure should now be put on that particular ‘mouthpiece’, in particular Chrichton and Clegg, to inform its readers on a daily basis, as to what is actually going on at Westminster. They introduced the Vow to the Scots. They influenced the Electorate therefore the outcome of the Referendum. They are now responsible for righting this wrong (if ever they could!).
And of course we have to carry on getting the message across not only on sites like this but on every street in every city, town and village in Scotland such as Gus1940s excellent suggestion … ”How about another March To & Rally on Edinburgh’s Calton Hill? Can I suggest holding it during The Edinburgh Festival when plenty of the world’s media are in town and preferably on the weekend of The Television Festival when the movers and shakers of broadcasting are present”.
I know that we have all been working our absolute butts off for what seems like forever, however we’ll now have to up the ante; get organised and coordinate marches and rallies right across the country with everyone holding placards depicting facts / statistics and as Ronnie says ”one stop shops in every Region + Hubs in the bigger Towns.”
We should also continue to complain constantly to the BBC and STV about bias and lack of coverage. It’s an absolute disgrace that we have to access sites like this to acquire information relating to Scottish affairs.
An act of war.
Time for a square go.
Greenlight the Edinburgh Yestival.
A celebration of Yes specialness.
Dear Caledonia,
My tears sheed freely today but fear not. I shall use the wet, salty flow to quench, harden and temper the steel in my heart.
Though dull and grey its edge will be sharp, its balance true and its weighty heft an instrument to bear Justice.
Do not mistake my shameless sorrow for a broken sprit, rather it’s a clarion for our re-emerging Nation
@ caz-m hows it going Pal, when are you back on shore.
Those of you with grey haired no voting relatives. Now is the time to shove your IPad/Android tablet or smart phone in their faces and show them the truth. It’s sure as he’ll not appearing on the MSM.
Taranaich 9:11
“All because the SNP ganged up with the Tories to scare voters out of voting Labour.
Apparently.”
Good point.
Anyone know how the unholy trinity voted?
Not to be a wet blanket, but I honestly see no value in a demo at PQ. The opposition only use that one to brand the cybernetics as anti free speech.
There is much more harm happening as they implode, and we treat them as irrelevant. Don’t give them a role reporting how they are being castigated for doing their job.
Lots of Scotland are now questioning what they pump out, Labour is in its death throes, so leave their mouthpiece to die quietly.
Where’s Nana? Anyone heard from her? I miss her links to good articles.
The MSM seems to have missed the votes on the Scotland Bill. But the BBC did manage to catch the vote to not have the EU Referendum on the same day as the Holyrood Elections. A very important vote don’t you agree. So they did notice something was happening.
Craig Murray has a good post on David Torrance’s Scotsman article claiming there’s a split in the SNP. Imagine that!
Seems he based it on Craig wanting to go faster than more cautious voices.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
We had a chance to get every Political Grouping (that are Independence Minded) on board during the Yes Campain, this now needs to be brought to the Fore (without the EGO,S).
We all have a Common Cause to be Rid of Westminster.
At the risk of being called a racist,( calling of the Clans) Lets Raise the FIERY CROSS all over Scotland.
In the early days BBC announcers used to dress up in dinner jacket and bow tie (men of course). Sometimes they would report:
“Nothing of any importance has been brought to my attention.”
They’ve gone back to their roots as far as the Scotland Bill is concerned.
Happy Bloom’s Day BTW.
link to en.wikipedia.org
“History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” (Ulysses)
It is just unbelieveable. Have another Referendum. Demographic changes will mean YES will win. There is a new generation born ever minute.
Another Unionist politician wipe out 2016/17
“We want EVEL but we will vote down any scottish legislation that might benefit you or cause us hindrance!” Brass necked bastards.
@ Valerie Don’t give them a role reporting how they are being castigated for doing their job.
So your not from around these here parts.
The point of the BBc Demo,s is to point out to them. the Fact they DONT REPORT FACTUALY, they dont represent whats happening in Scotland at any level, without the Bias of the Slab & British Propaganda.
Did Labour/Unionists vote YES.
NO result got thirty votes more. Tories only have 13 majority.
@ Capella the last time Nana posted she said she was suffering badly with athritis & couldnt type. If any Wingers know Nana personaly ,give her a visit & let her know we,re thinking of Her.
In all the excitement, we’ve overlooked the ICM opinion poll data that Lesley-Ann posted last night. UK sample, very small Scottish sub-sample.
Ignore the SNP at about 50% in Scotland – when was the last time an opinion poll found more Tory voters in Scotland than Labour voters? Have we reached the tipping point at which the Labour Party becomes as relevant and the LibDems?
,AndyH says:
16 June, 2015 at 8:45 am
Those of you with grey haired no voting relatives. Now is the time to shove your IPad/Android tablet or smart phone in their faces and show them the truth. It’s sure as he’ll not appearing on the MSM.
Better yet, leave it us grey haired, YES voting, clued up 60+s. We know how to get through to the good folk who have been conned for a generation or more. Please don’t get their backs up and the blinkers drawn tighter. It needs patience, one soul at a time.
Every YES vote won is two votes NO have to gain and it ain’t gonna happen!
Thanks Ronnie. Hope Nana is able to keep reading WoS and gets the message that we miss her input.
While I share the anger, and frustration, of all of us on this latest slap in the face from Westminster, a knee-jerk reaction, while perfectly understandable, is not what is required.
Despite the result, in Scotland, of the G.E, at the moment I don’t believe we would win another referendum if it were held in the near future. No, while it’s difficult to take, I think we should play the long game, because, rest assured, the insults from Westminster have just begun, and as the days and weeks pass, more and more of our people will have their eyes opened to the contempt in which we are held by the “mother of parliaments”, or at least, most of it’s members.
Our other huge obstacle is once again the M.S.M, led, of course, by their cheerleader, the B.B.C. We will never, and I mean never, get a fair hearing and that is a big problem. Already this morning I haven’t heard a item on radio or T.V about this charade in Westminster yesterday evening. I doubt whether the print media, with the possible exception of the National, will be any different.
So therein, as previous posters have pointed out, lies our problem, one that is going to stay with us whether it’s in the next election, or a second referendum.
While this site, along with others, do a great job, unfortunately they still have to compete with the establishment backed M.S.M. So I urge patience, much as though it goes against the grain, and we will get independence, and secure a better future for future generations of all Scots.
frogesque says:
16 June, 2015 at 9:33 am
Better yet, leave it us grey haired, YES voting, clued up 60+s. We know how to get through to the good folk who have been conned for a generation or more. Please don’t get their backs up and the blinkers drawn tighter. It needs patience, one soul at a time.
Well said! I know how infuriating this latest dark episode has been, but we have to be patient. We have to take a big majority of Scotland with us. At 50% we are half-way there. No more, no less. No problem – it is happening. The pace may continue to quicken, but we cannot force the issue with NO voters. Just give them some time with this Tory majority and they will eventually see sense. It’s inevitable.
Oh man, in amongst this thread I know it’s unlikely it will ever be read, let alone answered but anyway…
I don’t understand why the SNP would request that the only way Holyrood should be scrapped is through a referendum if it’s (supposedly, I know) “permanent” in the Smith report. Why should that even be an option?
Is there a similar option for scrapping Westminster?
Can anyone explain?
Well Said Alex Beveridge!
Calmly, patiently, we need to start chiseling away at the BBC monolith and draining it’s influence away….
All votes yesterday on the Scotland bill was taken by MPs including Englishs ones who’s job is to represent there own constituents. So in a nut shell its English votes for scottishs laws “EVSL”. It totally contradicts the “EVEL” concept.
I could understand is the Englishs and other nations MPs were voting on a matter directly effecting them but for English MPs to vote on if the Scottish Parliament is dissolved only by the scots is purely anti Scottish. It is racism, colonialism. Our masters have spoken.
The only process to fix this is UDI as there is no way they will allow another Indy referendum. As mentioned before the PM will not sign off on it again for a generation.
It’s sad times folks. Heartbreaking.
Sent an email to Murray Foote today asking for his view on the vow.
So don’t worry, all will be revealed with a large report on it in tomorrow’s Daily Record.
Hosie in the commons “Ian Murray is grinning like a Cheshire Cat just now” wee fat dick.
Hello everyone, sorry I have been away so long. I do tune into wings now and then but just lost the will to contribute due to a sudden bereavement.
Life does go on and I’m slowly coming round the corner if not around the bend!
It’s getting so much harder to have patience, Westminster are determined to humiliate and subjugate us at every turn, are they trying to provoke a reaction? I don’t even think these mindless Tories can think that far ahead.
What this sorry state of affairs does is strip back any pretence that Scotland will be respected, that we are valued in this family of nations, even the slightest movement towards more powers will be crushed under foot and used as just another chance to put us in our place.
My only consolation is that every humiliation and every insult will move us closer to independence, it’s the light at the end of the tunnel that will hopefully get brighter as we get closer, a small consolation which right now isn’t doing much to quell my anger.
Kevin Evans says:
16 June, 2015 at 9:55 am
The only process to fix this is UDI as there is no way they will allow another Indy referendum. As mentioned before the PM will not sign off on it again for a generation.
The PM cannot stop another Scottish referendum. He really cannot. The key, however, is to hold the next one when will definitely win it. We are not there yet. If we keep the pressure on, and Scotland keeps voting SNP, they will crack eventually. WM cannot prevent a second referendum, but they will almost certainly legislate to prevent a third one (even a non-binding consultative one) if the second one results in another NO vote. Timing is crucial. Hang in there, folks, everything is going according to plan.
Well said Alex Beveridge!. I think that you are spot on, although we are all annoyed at what is going on in Westminster, it was only to be expected. We know them for what they are.
Patience is what is now required. At The moment it is too soon for another referendum. I have believed for a while now, that we will have to go through this pain before we are ready for the next referendum.
I reckon a lot of those swithering no voters might just have their eyes opened, but we have to get this out there. The MSM and especially the EBC are always going to be against us. This is proving difficult to combat but there has to be a way to deal with it surely. Better brains than mine might know, or have a decent idea to deal with this.
O/T NANA, if you are reading this, we really miss your links and contributions. I asked about you a while ago and someone did say that you had commented about being unable to type because of your Arthritis. I hope that you will be well enough to come back soon. Could you please get someone to let the wingers know if you are all right.
O/T but relevant:
How do we go about setting up a Scottish bank?
I’m not talking RBS, The Bank of Halifax or Clydslloyd, I mean a real Scottish bank headquartered and based in Scotland primarily (but not exclusively) for Scottish clients and businesses who want to clearly identify with Scotland but also operate in a world environment. A place where pensioners can safely invest, the young can obtain a fair mortgage and a Bank that actively encourages SMEs with reasonable loans. A bank where a cheque book and plastic card make a statement about who we are and not the greedy sleeze of Corporate indifference.
Should such a bank be created, who could grant its status? Can we be apart from the BoE and the clearing house money changers? As Scots, do we have the right to create such an Institution that will be prudent and true to the older principles of responsible Scottish banking? Could we print our own notes and exchange currencies? Who would be be the Lender of Last Resort for such an undertaking?
Lastly, could Scotland and Scots business use a dual currency, say the Pound and either the Euro or even a fully backed Scots pound?
It addresses the too wee, too poor, too stupid jibe head on. Pensioners would be safe with their investments and the young might have a bit of hope of freeing themselves from privateering landlords.
If we want independence then we must act independently. Nicola can only lead, the peoples of Scotland have to be the driving force. Power, real power, is taken, not given – especially by Westminster, Whitehall and the charlatans who support them.
@Capella says: 16 June, 2015 at 12:17 am:
” … is there not a convention that they mustn’t mislead the House?”
Indeed there is and there are many other things that are not supposed to be done in the house that the speaker is supposed to deal with and he has the power to remove the offender from the chamber.
Yet Bercow turns a blind eye to quite obvious lies that do indeed mislead the house but, deary, deary me! We cannot have those, insurgent and obnoxious, sweaties politely handclapping in the chamber.
Just get us to hell out of that madhouse and back into the present century. Yesterday’s session confirmed that there is only one proper solution –
INDEPENDENCE.
And another thing, Call Kaye, (wi the ae e’e), this morning, after the idiocy yesterday in parliament, The BBC is dealing with the more important subject of smoking in cars when there is a child in the vehicle.
We need shot of all those numpties at BBC against Scotland.
Nana
Thoughts are with you. Missing your contribution to this great site. Take care.
I believe what we are seeing is the Unionists holding out until the next election.
Their strategy is based on this election result being a freak,and normal service will resume next time.Bad thinking.
They do not understand that they are actually firming up opinion in Scotand.
Some in Westminster have seen the warning signs,but the Majority are oblivious to the change that will overwhelm them in time.
‘No’ voters were showered in promises and bribes of gold and riches, only to be thrown to the kerb.
They now need to see the error of their way, so that history can be corrected.
@Nana Smith
Welcome back, you were missed
Hope things are getting better
@ Nana
I don’t post often, but I do like reading yours.
I’m sure we are all sorry for your loss. (Big Hugs from me)
@ Joemcg says “We want EVEL but we will vote down any scottish legislation that might benefit you or cause us hindrance!” Brass necked bastards.”
They’re not telling anyone either that if they get their ‘EVEL’ way no Scot can ever ‘aspire’ (if that’s the right word) to be Prime Minister or CoE again.
@ Valerie says ”Not to be a wet blanket, but I honestly see no value in a demo at PQ. The opposition only use that one to brand the cybernetics as anti free speech.”
I agree Valerie that is unless the situation worsens dramatically. Last time we had a demo at PQ (Nick Robinson Affair) my husband and I watched the news that night. He watched STV and I watched BBC news. STV omitted most of the facts. The BBC reported that ‘SNP supporters are complaining that the news is too British: is not Scottish enough.’ Now just imagine how that would have incited further hatred against the SNP down South (and in Scotland too no doubt).
We can contact BBC / STV directly and / or report them to Ofcom. We can contact newspapers such as the Daily Liar directly and / or report it / them to the Press Standards.
Fifty per cent of Scots want Independence and no matter what is said / what happens I don’t see that ever change. If we could all enlighten one no voter each that would make a positive difference. I also noticed that many of the hubs that I frequented didn’t advertise any facts or statistics in their windows. Maybe we should be making better use of them? What about chipping in and getting billboards erected in key areas to highlight what’s actually going on for example ‘Your Scottish Parliament is not Permanent’.
And more than anything we’re approximately 6 weeks into the (at least) 5 year Tory rule regime and their contempt for the Scots will ‘leak out’ regardless of MSM suppression of the truth. They’ll also come up with any number of even more obnoxious policies, I’m sure, such as the bedroom tax and really scunner some of the NO voters.
I’m looking forward to seeing a poll that indicates that at least 60% of the Scots want Independence. With the way things are going I reckon we’ll see it before Christmas (2015).
PS @ frogesque says ”How do we go about setting up a Scottish bank?”
frogesque The National published an excellent article by Carolyn Leckie yesterday entitled ‘Tackle taboo and put the banks into state hands’. Maybe someone on here could post this for you? If not I’ll try to do so later tonight.
Well you have to hand it to them, no they did not surprise us, but they must be upsetting those who voted NO. So Scotland IS just a wee bit of England to them, no they do not like the inhabitants but then they tries to exterminate us so many times, but they do want the land we sit on and what is under, on or round it.#The only way is Independence and WE know it, now the rest of Scotland’s people should be starting to realise it too.
So sorry Nana for your bereavement, glad to see you back, your contributions made such a difference.
Hi Nana Smith – Sorry to hear of your loss; you can be sure we are all thinking of you and wishing you the best.
Scotland needs its own Sinn Fein. 1916 >>> 2016?
We have to get our own broadcaster. This information should be made available to everyone in Scotland during prime time.
It should have been the phone in topic on Call Kay(e), or whatever it is now, instead of whether a smoking ban in cars could be enforced (again).
I appreciate broadcasting is not devolved, but surely there’s nothing to stop the SG from starting up an additional station whose main purpose would be to inform the Scottish public on local, cultural and political matters in a non partisan way. All we are asking for is balance.
In the whole scheme of things it wouldn’t be too expensive. BBC Radio Scotland budget is £33.1M.
Good to hear from you Nana and sorry to learn of your bereavement.
@ Nana
So glad to hear from you but sad to hear of your loss. We have missed you.
An old Scot – in my last months o life.
Dae yes not see where this is leading – down brave Ireland’s
path.
The time for talk is over.
Our sad decay in church and state
Surpasses my descriving.
The Whigs cam o’er us for a curse,
And we hae done wi’ thriving.
&
Grim Vengeance lang has taen a nap,
But we may see him waukin –
Gude help the day when Royal heads
Are hunted like a maukin!
Take care Nanna Smith thinking of you X
I suppose no surprise. Cameron’s word is worthless. I think the whole tenor of Mundell’s untruths are such that we must look to another referendum. Fortunately their ill will and lack of grace should make that sooner rather than later.
@ Nana Sorry to hear of the bereavment of a loved one/friend.I hope you are keeping well,can get back to your auld self, You are missed on site xxx.
gerry parker at 7.23
Agreed. Blair Jenkins is basically a very capable administrator without the oratorial powers which would have been useful. I suspect we badly missed Denis Canavan who had to largely drop out due to health problems.
All in all we did well,however, and the army is bigger and better now. Perhaps we needed the dishonest, lying Better Together campaign that time to destroy the credibility of our opponents and make sure we win next time.
It’s like finding you’ve been diddled by somebody who claimed he was your best friend. End of relationship.
Nana Smith says:
Nana, you may not know me, but being a Winger from even previous to this site, I have read many excellent posts from you. I am very sad for the bereavement, but do not leave us you are greatly valued by many on here. Just want you to know that. Best wishes.
Jim McIntosh says:
16 June, 2015 at 10:43 am
We have to get our own broadcaster. This information should be made available to everyone in Scotland during prime time.
It should have been the phone in topic on Call Kay(e), or whatever it is now, instead of whether a smoking ban in cars could be enforced (again).
I appreciate broadcasting is not devolved, but surely there’s nothing to stop the SG from starting up an additional station whose main purpose would be to inform the Scottish public on local, cultural and political matters in a non partisan way. All we are asking for is balance.
In the whole scheme of things it wouldn’t be too expensive. BBC Radio Scotland budget is £33.1M.
It’s not the money. The Government controls the issuing of licences for stations to operate and the type of content they are allowed to broadcast. Essentially a system of State censorship.
Nana, so sorry to hear of your bereavement. Take care, and come back to us when you feel that you are ready.
@ Brian Fleming We have no need of people like you on any Indy web sites TAFFTY.
Would it be possible to call an emergency debate at Holyrood to discuss the existential threat to the permanence of the Scottish Parliament?
The possibility of UDI could als be discussed.
Hey @Nana big hugs.
OT,Jim Murphys pals.
link to medium.com
Brian Fleming says:
16 June, 2015 at 10:41 am
Scotland needs its own Sinn Fein. 1916 >>> 2016?
Absolutely not! The last thing we need is a political wing of a proscribed paramilitary organisation. Keep it legal (Scots Law) and keep it focussed, don’t give the OO, UVF and their ilk any ammunition.
gus1940 at 7 am
With you 100% on that one but Calton Hill, though significant in hitorical terms and impressive in photos, didn’t work very well physically if you were there trying to access the stage performances (and Princess Street Gardens is now too small).
This is exactly how they treated the Irish.
“After the end of the war in November 1918 Sinn Féin secured a majority of 73 Irish seats in the general election, twenty five of these seats taken uncontested. In January 1919 twenty-seven Sinn Féin MPs assembled in Dublin and proclaimed themselves unilaterally as an independent parliament of an Irish Republic. This was ignored by Britain. The Irish War of Independence (1919–1921) ensued”
I have some time on my hands, so I watched large chunks of yesterday’s debate.
1, We have excellent MP’s working for us, Hosey was on fire and struggled to contain his temper with some of these sniveling idiots. Angus was very good as were others, I felt proud of them all.
2,We will never get anything meaningful from Westminster, all we will get is sneering, deviousness, and downright lies.
There is a rising feeling for Indy2, I agree,however, it is too early,Westminster has a lot of bile to pour on us yet, something we can rightly be angry about but need to hold back a call for the next referendum.
To see how our people are treated badly, every day, every week, every month, will make Scots doubters awaken when seeing and hearing the scowling condescending, mob that are the Unionists of Westminster.
To be successful next time we need to have the population en mass being angry, that will irrevocably bring our needs for Indy2 to a peak, then we will win.
We can simmer in our anger, but it will serve us well to bite our lip and be patient.
Big Jock says:
16 June, 2015 at 11:11 am
This is exactly how they treated the Irish.
“After the end of the war in November 1918 Sinn Féin secured a majority of 73 Irish seats in the general election, twenty five of these seats taken uncontested. In January 1919 twenty-seven Sinn Féin MPs assembled in Dublin and proclaimed themselves unilaterally as an independent parliament of an Irish Republic. This was ignored by Britain. The Irish War of Independence (1919–1921) ensued”
Jock, have you seen this excellent piece by Dafydd Wigley (PC):
link to tinyurl.com
A timely warning to the tories, but also a warning to those of us who already feel we should be contemplating UDI – it’s a nuclear option that would lead to years of strife and violence. Let’s learn from the Irish experience. We don’t have to use UDI to win this, but we do need to be patient (not forever, but a wee while yet).
I am looking forward to the 2016 Holyrood elections and trust the SNP manifesto will be a good one. The Greens, SSP and other progressive parties might also produce a worthwhile programme. I have no expectation that the Unionist Parties will have anything useful to offer.
Meantime, I agree that there is a great deal of time ahead to gather people together and share the knowledge and ideas which the MSM will never do.
Business For Scotland might be a place to discuss banks and creating a more trustworthy financial system. The currency issue is still unresolved.
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
And whatever happened to the Scottish Constitution?
Stu I think your twitter speculation could be right, we are being goaded into demanding another referendum before we are ready, before we have the polling numbers. Because losing two in close succession would make a third very hard to call.
The Tories are going to go out of their way to rub our noses in their hegemony despite we didn’t vote for them, despite the mandate we gave the SNP. There will be both spite and glee in what they do.
But we need to hold our nerve and wait until it is right on our terms. We need to store all this up, keep notes on it to use when it is time. Build a case nobody can argue with. That is what we do with this. Remember, revenge is a dish best served cold. When do tell them to shove it somewhere dark and painful we must be ice cold.
Fireproofjim says:
Hi, I do not know about UDI, all the scenario’s would need to be investigated first. So, unsure of that Idea, however I do agree an emergency meeting at Holyrood IS a good idea, and the message of that would make Westminster see that we are serious.
THE LYING BASTARDS LIED TO US!
(Well, whadayaknow…?)
As someone who was a teenager who voted yes in
the 1978/9 devolution referendum I never believed
for a single moment that the unionists had any intention
of delivering what Brown promised during last year’s
independence refendedum of near federalism.
There is no way Westminster will allow the creation of
of powerful parliament in Scotland that would present
a challenge to the authority and soveriegnty of
Westminster
Like him or loathe him, Sepp Blatter was actually re-elected via an open and fair democratic vote. However, prior to the vote, Dodgy Dave made a statement in the house of commons in which he voiced his wholehearted support for the English F.A’s position.
That ‘position’ was that should the F.A. not like the result of the presidential election, they could leave the FIFA organisation and boycott any tournaments organised by FIFA. Indeed, the English F.A. and anyone else similarly minded, might just set-up an alternative organisation with a leader of their own choice !
NOW !
Such a stance, transferred from the sporting arena to the political arena, would obviously mean that should the SNP declare their dislike of the outcome of the General Election, they would then be free to withdraw from the Union and set up their own independent ruling body etc, etc AND all this with Dodgy Dave’s approval (given the precedence already set by himself – and confirmed in Hansard)
@Muscleguy
One hundred percent agree!
All of us take note.
Goading is the name of the game. Remember the tories have expensive strategy contractors on the payroll.
Agree entirely with “Kevin Evans”, “English votes for Scots laws” EVSL, bang on the money.
This should be brought up in OUR Edinburgh Parliament .
i did say before the election that the most likely outcome was a majority, or a coalition with a majority, which would ignore the snp mps, regardless of how many we elected. and… le voila,Westminster always was an exercise in short termism, cameron put party before country during the election and will continue to do so in the next 5 years, neither knowing or caring how that plays out in scotland
50% of the votes will enable us to move forward and wipe out the unionists msp’s and councillors in the next 2 years, that is our goal.
However, 50% it isnt enough to win indyref2.
the greens were under no illusion that they could win any seats in the ge but labour and their supporters were. that bubble has now been well and truely burst. 5 years of tory rule will continue the drift of support towards independence, but is only worth 2 or 3 %. there is a demographic issue, although the 29% of over 65’s who voted yes were some of our most active campaigners, time will take its toll on these no voters. A conditional indyref2 will be on the 2016 manifesto, the eu ref is the only major game changer i can see in the near future but i dont see the ruk voting to come out.
when independence comes, as it surely will, it will be like the reformation, quick and a foregone conclusion, the status quo will no longer have any representatives left or supporters willing to stand up for the discredited union
@Brian Fleming
We already do, and it’s about one and a half million times bigger and growing, but nobody will die
Independence is coming, but, it will be a long time in achieving. I remember reading, during the Referendum campaign, about how long it took, after Bannockburn, before the threat of another English invasion was finally killed-off; something like 14-years if memory serves me correctly.
So, we have to accept, those of us wishing Freedom, are in it for the long haul (mind you, I’m 68, so, hopefully, not too-long a haul).
Can we not as a means of preparing for Indyref 2, start compiling a list of every broken promise of vacated Vow, of how the SNP’s 56 were out-voted on every motion at Westminster? So, when the Wee Blue Book for Indyref 2 is published, we can demonstrate all the kicks in the teeth which the Westminster parties came up with.
We should also be carefully monitoring the Three Amigos – Fluffy, the Misstater and the Jambo – so we can nail all their terminological inexactitudes and misstatements between the start of this Parliament and the eventual Indyref 2 vote.
Hi Nana, I echo the thoughts of others regarding your loss…glad to know you are still ‘here’ and look forward tae yer great contributions to this site continuing when you are ready…you are well missed, take care 🙂
UDI is a last resort. If Westminster became so harmfull to Scotland that we had to leave. Then UDI would be the last resort option.
In order to succeed it would need the weight of the people behind the move. It would only happen if Westminster refused a referendum. It would close the door on democratic methods of procedure. It would be at Westminsters door. Refusing the referendum or ignoring the result of a referebdum would carry the weight of the people.
This is what I really think is happening. The Tories would rather not have a Scottish parliament at all. However they live with it. They don’t want to give us any more power, as they think independene will come quicker with Home Rule. They know the Union is ending, but want to delay it and fight Scotland until nothing is left to argue.
The Tories will not concede anything ever. This is about asserting power and authority to the English electorate. They want talks to break down and UDI to be declared. They can then say we tried to top it but the Jocks did it anyway.
Expect this to end in chaos people. This is now a political war we are entering
@majestic12 says: 16 June, 2015 at 2:44 am:
“I think perhaps some erroneous assumptions are being made.
Well Majestic12, while you are entitled to you views I deduce you are way off the mark. No one with their fingers on the pulse expected any other result than what occurred yesterday in parliament. In fact most, like myself predicted it before the Smith Report was even published.
So here’s the hard truth for you. There is not a chance in hell that The Establishment is even going to co-operate in a reasonable manner for they are of the mind set as demonstrated by the paper they commissioned from what they claimed were two World Experts in international law.
This paper was quoted by the person that Cameron has chosen to, (allegedly), be the Secretary of State for Scotland but who quite obviously is very much against Scotland. Mundell said this, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”. This is without doubt utter claptrap as the Treaty and both Acts Of Union say nothing of the sort.
Legally there are several things that are uncontroversial but have always been ignored by the Westminster Establishment. The Treaty of union has but two signatory Kingdoms and neither countries or parliaments were united by the treaty. Kingdoms are defined as Royal Realms and may, or may not, also be countries.
One thing the Treaty proves beyond doubt is that it took account of the differences between English and Scottish Law. Which is why there are several things that remained independent in Scotland. These are all due to the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath that enshrined in international law not only that Scotland was an independent Kingdom but that, uniquely, in Scotland the people and not the monarchy were sovereign. This is still the basis of Scots law. Thus the Scottish Education System remains independent within the Union, The Monarch cannot be the head of any Scottish church and, most important of all, the Scottish Legal System is sacrosanct.
Now perhaps all that has whooshed way above your head for it is always pushed into the background as it is completely against the views of the Establishment. Who have always deliberately confused the terms Country, Kingdom, Britain, Great Britain United Kingdom and even England. This language abuse is everywhere.
However, the fact remains that the Union is a bipartite Union of Kingdoms and most SNP people are not pushing to end the joint Royal Realm. It other words they are not particularly wanting to see Scotland as a republic or with a different Monarch.
The independence that is sought is from the joint parliament, of Her Majesty’s Government. The Establishment has always assumed that they have full sovereignty over Scotland but under Scots law the people of Scotland and not the Monarchy/Parliament are sovereign. Note: the Three country Kingdom of England became a Constitutional Monarchy in 1688 but Scotland has had the People as sovereign since before 1320, (as was ratified by the Declaration of Arbroath).
So that is the situation just now. The Establishment claims they are sovereign but the, still independent, Scots Law says the People of Scotland are Sovereign.
That means if a majority of the people of Scotland demand either another referendum or indeed instant independence, then the only way to attempt to stop them holding it is by military or legal force and English law does not apply in Scotland.
If you doubt all this, consider the Scottish, “Claim of Right”, 1689 that was reaffirmed in 1989 and three of the many signatories to that claim were Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling and Donald Dewar, (not to mention every sitting Labour MSP, (bar one) and most civil organs including trade Unions.
Simply put – if A majority of Scots say we are independent then we legally are independent and the Kingdom of England, (three countries), don’t get a say in that decision. As we have tried the friendly way to Scottish independence only to have the establishment ignore us we have now sent 56 MPs to Westminster and now the Establishment are ignoring that too.
Now do you see where things are going? There are already many voices raised to demand both another referendum on independence and even UDI and I’d wager yesterday’s session in parliament will have massively increased the number of voices. I’d also wager many coming SNP branch meetings will show motions tabled for another referendum.
@Nana – Good to hear from you Nana I would just echo what others have said that you have been missed. You’ve brought a wee bit of sunshine on another dark day for our Scotland
@Greg Drysdale I don’t know if there is a similar option for scrapping Westminster but if there is it probably lies in the hands of the Queen.
Which is why I heartily approve of requiring a referendum among the Scottish people as to whether the Scottish parliament should end. It comes across as symbolic to me showing that they are not her majesty’s parliament of Scotland but the servants of the people of Scotland, and thus only they have the ultimate power to dismiss them. I am a Socialist though so your mileage may vary.
@Nana Smith
Sorry to hear your news Nana. You have made many friends here wishing you happier days ahead.
@Scunterbunnet says: 16 June, 2015 at 4:27 am:
“Blimps. We need blimps.”
But! But! But!
We already have blimps – Mundell, Murray and Carmichael are already at the Establishment but in their case we need rid of the blimps.
i agree right now is the wrong time for indyref2 but to all those who think this,i have one thing to say to them we are not talking about indyref2 in 2016 ,we are talking about giving the SNP the right to hold a second referendum only the people of Scotland can decide this not the SNP,as Nicola has pointed out on many occasions it is up to us.
If we wait until a new Scottish parliament after 2016 it will be to late to include it in a manifesto for government and we will need to wait until the next Scottish election,but if we give them it in 2016 then it leaves 2017/18/19/20 open as dates for a second indyref.
Our goal should be to hand in a petition to the Scottish government demanding(not asking)they include a second referendum in their manifesto for government in 2016.
And anyway all this sitting about is boring lets do what we do best and get active and stay active,yes we had to sit back and wait to see what would happen with team 56 but now it is quite clear that westminster has no intention of keeping their promises,i really thought they would string it out until after 2016 but they just cant resist giving us a slapdown,a big mistake on their part lets punish them for it.
Robert Peffers @ 12.14. Ha Ha Ha. Well said Robert. I agree with your sentiment 100%.
Get onto the Parliament channel. Salmond rumbling them up.
Nana Smith.
So sorry to hear you have suffered bad times. You are so missed here on Wings.
Thoughts are with you and your family.(Big hug)
Go Alex
Never trust a Tory
No English Laws for Scottish folk
Its not that I don’t want another referendum, but we have several dragons to slay first; principally the hateful media and State propagandists at the BBC.
Until and unless these agengies so hostile to Scotland’s self determination have their guns spiked, then every future initiative for Independence will be badly compromised. Its not that I wish to see them suppressed, but exposure of the truth is vital, and pro independence voices must have a comparable access to mass communication.
By the same token, if this conundrum is resolved, then our Independence is a mere formality. Sadly I feel like this defining battle has scarcely begun…
@Nana
Thinking of you! X
@Robert Peffers
Thanks Robert for all your valuable information. I’ve copied lots from you.
Thank goodness for Wings. It contains a bit of sanity. Facebook today is awash with people calling for UDI. It’s difficult to calm people down but we have to.
Robert Peffers, thank for that. Salmond at his best. Never seen anyone as comfortable in the face of his enemies. Could anyone see any Scottish Labour MP holding court like this in the name of justice for Scotland? No didn’t think so. Go on Alex give em hell!
frogesque says:
16 June, 2015 at 10:57 am
It’s not the money. The Government controls the issuing of licences for stations to operate and the type of content they are allowed to broadcast. Essentially a system of State censorship.
And what are they going to do if the SG said we’re not playing by your rules, we are starting a radio station, what are you going to do?
@Ronnie Anderson
I’m not new to these parts, I post almost everyday.
You have made my point for me about demos at PQ, you say their purpose is to tell them they are not reporting the facts, so would you say the demos have rectified that?
I was mightily relieved when the demo planned just 2 weeks before the GE was abandoned, as I honestly think it would have done more damage than good.
We have to try and stay classy, and given that we seek to influence older people, many of them do still trust the BBC, but demos will not convince them to look elsewhere for news.
BTW, all the talk of UDI – Sturgeon has been unequivocal, she will not support it.
I agree with muscleguy, they are trying to goad us into a second referendum, as two defeats within a year would be a disaster.
There are soft Nos and hard line Nos that simply haven’t had enough crap heaped on them by WM, for them to come over.
@Robert Peffers
“ex-Labour MPs” should read “Labour ex-MPs”.
Sorry to be picky but………..
@Greg Drysdale says: 16 June, 2015 at 9:45 am:
“Oh man, in amongst this thread I know it’s unlikely it will ever be read, let alone answered but anyway…”
Believe me, Greg, it will be read.
“I don’t understand why the SNP would request that the only way Holyrood should be scrapped is through a referendum if it’s (supposedly, I know) “permanent” in the Smith report. Why should that even be an option?
I think yesterday in Parliament has answered your question.
It boils down to a simple fact, Greg. The Establishment has always believed it has full sovereignty over Scotland. History proves that fact. Did Not Edward hold, “The Ragman Rolls”, claiming that the Scottish Lords, including our monarchs, owed fealty to England’s Crown?
However, after the wars of Scottish independence, the Scots not only defeated the English army but we had the Edinburgh- Northampton Treaty and the Declaration of Arbroath.
Then, in 1603, we had the Scottish Monarch inherit the crown of England but which the Establishment calls the Union of the Crowns but no union ever took place. The two kingdoms remained independent. In 1688 the three country English Kingdom held their Glorious Revolution and deposed their Monarch, (James II), but as a still independent Kingdom this could not affect James as James VII of Scotland but the Establishment began what they call the Jacobite Rebellion but the Scots could not be rebelling against King Billy and Queen Mary of Orange as they were not Monarchs of Scotland. So we had Scotland vs England wars from 1688 till 1745 as again the Establishment were claiming sovereignty over Scotland.
Which brings us to The Treaty of Union 1706/7, but why would there need to be Treaty of Union if we had united in 1706 or again in 1688?
Then we had the Scottish claim of Right in 1689 and again in 1989 to reaffirm that the people of Scotland were sovereign. So the idea that the Westminster Establishment has full sovereignty over Scotland and Scots is not legal under independent Scots law but has existed in the Establishment’s mind set as long as we have had historic records.
The implications are that if a majority of Scots mandate a Scottish government to declare that the Union is ended it is a legal fact that it is so.
Thing is we would then get into the nightmare situation that the Establishment would claim this as a case of UDI and the nightmare is that the World at large has been fed the totally wrong English version of history since ever there has been World wide communications.
RULISTENING NICOLA
Westminster has ignored and rejected the democratic will of the Scottish People! If this is not the cause/case you required to hold indyref2 what is?
The limitations of trying to implement change through the Westminster System was clear to see. Westminster/ideology is and will always be opposed to smallest concessions to devolution. Elitist British Imperialism mind set is still alive and kicking. Through Tories One Nation Labour pooling And sharing of resources Home rule party ma ars.
No Compromise
No Goodwill
No Trust
Just humiliation and rejection from British unionists.
Our crisis of confidence of an independent nation is gone. The UK as a state is dead and its time we buried it once and for all.
Its time to be that momentous person in Scottish history and lead the people out of Westminster control and inspire our people to independence. The cause the case was given yesterday never mind waiting for EU referendum that’s just a
However we cant just come out of the blue and state there is going to be another indyref. Someone has to take the lead and start the preparation and strategy that will be required now. If indyref2 is not in the SNP 2016 manifesto what is the point? We’ve tried the Westminster route and its failed miserably so much for democracy. The Scottish Bill is a Dead duck even before its finished reading. Sensible powers have been rejected.
That means that discussions with the greens and socialist and pro Indy groups need to start to get the people and strategy which will be required to lead the debate policy and strategy behind it.
It will come back down to the 3 main battle issues.
ECONOMY which Westminster has just rejected……again. But I feel we will win this time round.
CURRENCY: Which we have done absolutely nothing about. We require an Independent Free Public Scottish Bank based in Scotland. I understand this is possible but politicians seem to be reluctant to implement.
We seriously need to consider creating our own currency but the complications of this would have to explained as to why we cant or can before or after the indyref is held. But we should be thinking of strategy and implementation of this now.
REVENUES & EXPENDITURE The debate of FFA/R has explained this black hole or not the argument for this has been put and I think we can win this as well.
All the other issues are subs and can be decided after the decision has been made.
So lets get the preparation started lets make sure project fear no2001 is neutralised before it even starts.
People say its going to take years 10+ to gain independence that’s negative bull etc. That’s too long
Its going to take time to negotiate when to hold the next indyref its going to take years of negotiations to reach independence day.
I don’t want another Tory government for the next 5 – 10yrs after 2020 its going to destroy this country and ruin the people.
So lets stop phaphing about and lets get on with it the longer we take to decide to have indyref2 the longer we are going to have to put up with this bull.
@Luigi says: 16 June, 2015 at 10:05 am:
“The PM cannot stop another Scottish referendum. He really cannot.”
Quite so, Luigi, but the general public have been brainwashed all their life to believe otherwise and as I keep pointing out Westminster never has had legal sovereignty over Scotland but has claimed it since history has been recorded.
The salient point is that Scottish Law was enshrined in 1320 as Scottish Sovereignty being vested in the People of Scotland. In England the former Divine Right of Kings was ended in the then three country Kingdom of England during the English, “Glorious Revolution”, when that three country Kingdom deposed the monarch that wore their crown but also the still independent Crown of Scotland. However, as Scotland was still independent the English Revolution did not affect the position of the Scottish Monarch.
So the English importing of King Billy & Queen Mary and the English removal from them of the veto over the English Parliament did not apply to the independent Kingdom of Scotland. Which is why the English needed a Treaty of Union in 1706/7. However, the canny Scots only signed the treaty if it kept the Scottish legal system, the Education system and the Scottish Religions all independent of the English systems. So the Scots people’s sovereignty was preserved. However the Establishment has always just ignored that legal fact.
So if the Scottish people give a majority government a mandate for anything it is legal under Scottish law because this claim of Westminster holding sovereignty over Scotland only held good as long as we were sending MPs to Westminster with mandates from the entire Union and we have never had either a Nationalist Mandated Holyrood nor a set of Scottish MPs with just a Scottish mandate before.
Think how the matter changes if we have both a mandate in Holyrood & in Westminster?
Yes Robert, We have to wipe them from the political map of Scotland now, in 2016. That is what we will do. Then in 2017 from our local councils. They, westminster, may just, get the message then. We’re a patient lot really. Though inside I’m raging, I remain resolute that this will all come to pass…they have not seen anything yet.
@ Nana, thinkin aboot ye!
As Billy Connolly said in that terribly, terribly fretful voice of his, “if this Vow isn’t delivered there will be hell to pay in Scotland!” 🙂
Bruce’s Forgotten Battle. Fought on Sutton Bank, Yorks.
link to ladydespensersscribery.com
[…] The first five words of “The Vow” – the solemn pledge made by all three UK party leaders on the eve of the independence referendum – are “The Scottish Parliament is permanent”. This is what happened in the House of Commons this evening when the UK government was asked to make good on that pledge. […]
@Les Wilson says: 16 June, 2015 at 11:41 am:
“Fireproofjim says:
Hi, I do not know about UDI, all the scenario’s would need to be investigated first. So, unsure of that Idea, however I do agree an emergency meeting at Holyrood IS a good idea, and the message of that would make Westminster see that we are serious.”
We do not need UDI. The legal situation hinges upon the truth of Scottish History in regard to Scottish Law and what are basically Westminster wrong assumptions and downright lies. Westminster has historically claimed full sovereignty over Scotland but has always failed to make it stick but has continued to claim its sovereignty over Scotland.
I’ve detailed it often enough so won’t do so again. I’ll just point out the original Scottish Claim of Right 1689.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The below link is hard going but here for completeness.
link to legislation.gov.uk
Then in 1989 the Scots reaffirmed their Claim of Right and tsome prominent signatories were Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Donald Dewar, Charlie Kennedy and Ming Campbell.
Here’s a link :-
link to en.wikipedia.org
What these clams of right are is Scotland stating that the Westminster Parliament does not have sovereignty over the Scotland or the Scots as the Constitutional Monarchy formed in 1688 by the importation of William & Mary by England did not apply to Scotland as Scotland remained independent until 1706/7 and that Treaty of Union agreed that Scots Law remained Independent. As Scots law is based upon the premise that the people not the monarch of Scotland are sovereign and the people have never mandated anyone to give away their sovereignty then Westminster could only claim sovereignty as long as the Scottish People allowed them to govern.
So unless anyone can prove otherwise the situation is, that if we mandate the Holyrood Parliament to hold a referendum, (or anything else for that matter), they cannot legally be prevented from doing whatever it is.
Until now the fly in the ointment has been the Members we sent to Westminster were mainly Unionists and took their orders from a London Unionist party. They do not now and thus it is perfectly legal for the Scottish Members to walk out of Westminster and declare the Union is over if they have a clear mandate of the people to do so
It would not thus be a UDI declaration but a legally binding political decision of the will of the sovereign people of Scotland.
@Fred
Thanks for that link. I had never seen that in any history I’ve read. I need to choose better books.
@Nana
Very sorry to hear of your bereavement. I hope the cloud passes quickly and that the sun shines for you again soon.
We’re all here for you anytime you need us 🙂
Graeme Doig,
“‘Labour in total mess on Full Fiscal Autonomy: abstaining on both FFA amendments to Scotland Bill (while Dennis Skinner voted with @theSNP)’”
Abstaining is their usual game – they have no principles.
At least Dennis Skinner has finally redeemed himself in a way. He must have been feeling guilty about his anti Scottish role in the 1979 referendum.
What I don’t get is why this isn’t being reported by anyone
Peter (third post above) writes: “New strategy needed methinks”
I couldn’t agree more.
What is the point of 56 SNP MPs sitting in London for the next five years while the Tories slap down every single thing they propose?
Did anyone really believe it would work any other way?
And please – I am not interested in another rigged referendum in five or ten years – decided by threats to the pension payments of older Scots.
The argument for UDI is now unanswerable – even if Nicola Sturgeon does think it’s “undemocratic”. What the hell is “democratic” about this daily humiliation of Scotland going on in London?
One further thought –
Scotland has voted in a majority of SNP MSPs at Holyrood.
Scotland has held a referendum that was lost because threats were made against pensioners.
Scotland has voted in a majority of SNP MPs at Westminster.
There is nothing more we – as voters – can do democratically to obtain the outcome we seek.
Do we now just keep on repeating what we’ve done – expecting a different result?
Doing the same will achieve the same – nothing worthwhile for Scotland.
We have tried all the “fair” and “patient” routes and we have nothing to show for it.
We have fulfilled our part of the bargain.
It is now up to the SNP leadership to devise a REALISTIC STRATEGY for achieving Scottish independence on behalf of the people of Scotland – not endless Punch and Judy shows that achieve nothing.
In reply to David McDowell
Scotland has voted in a majority of SNP MSPs at Holyrood
Over 50% did not vote for the SNP
Scotland has held a referendum that was lost because threats were made against pensioners.
Conjecture, care to substantiate this?
Scotland has voted in a majority of SNP MPs at Westminster
Half of those who voted in Scotland did not vote SNP
Do we now just keep on repeating what we’ve done – expecting a different result? Doing the same will achieve the same – nothing worthwhile for Scotland. We have tried all the “fair” and “patient” routes and we have nothing to show for it.
There is no evidence that a majority of Scots (e.g. over 50%) support the long term policy objectives of the SNP, let alone the more restricted 2015 UK general election manifesto objectives
majestic12 at 2.44 am
Your point five is indeed correct and I have articulated it here before. We could campaign on a manifesto commitment in 2016 that the Scottish Parliament should assume full sovereign and independent powers and a majority there would indeed be an entirely legitimate mandate for independence.
Many countries have gone independent on a vote in a devolved legislature
Robert Peffers@12.03
In the nicest possible way, may I ask if you actually read and understood anything I wrote? It doesn’t seem so.
And to suggest that anything “had whooshed way above my head” is not only very, very, wrong but incredibly insulting. I need no lectures about the Sovereingty of The Scottish People. There are others, believe it or not, who have knowledge of Scottish/British history and the constitutional intricacies thereof. It is something I have had cause to write about recently, but not on this site. You seem to be accepted as the in-house expert here, so I leave it to you and your extensive knowledge.
To be honest, I think we’ve all “got it” that we live in a bi-partite state, you’ve mentioned it so often.
Yes, we all have right to our opinion, no opposition there, but the irony is that if you read my post again, and then read yours, you will find that all you are doing is supporting my position, albeit with many more words. The will of the People of Scotland is legally sacrosanct, but in this modern world there are mechanisms for expressing that will (not via England) that the People, in the form of their elected Scottish government, have to take to international level. How else can we do it? Get every man, woman and child in Scotland to converge on the UN in New York?
We’re on the same side, Robert, but please do not condescend to or patronise me, or any other poster on this site again. Stu doesn’t like it:-). If you had written to Stu what you wrote to me you’d be in real trouble.
Robert Peffers 2.08
‘Think how the matter changes if we have both a mandate in Holyrood & in Westminster?”
Gosh, that sounds familiar. Isn’t that just what Majestic 12 said a few posts back, the poster you presumed was insufficiently smart to understand anything ?
OmG
This offer needs to go viral!!!
moreMalt – You are trying to use the idea of “democracy” to justify the wholescale denial of “democracy” to Scotland. All your daft “percentages” don’t mean a thing when Cameron is in majority government on 37% of the vote.
UK Gov have essentially just told Scotland to f*@k the right off!
Just for the record, I’m going to leave these comments here. It seems an appropriate thread, though I may have occasion to place this on other threads for posterity, for sensibledave’s comments from the 12th May from the Wings article ‘How the north was lost’. Haven’t heard much from him recently…he certainly wasn’t trolling…surely not!
Pity though, given that as a ‘full bloodied englishman’ he was so certain that the party he voted for, the Tories, were such a lovely bunch of democrats, that of course those nice men were going to negotiate perfectly reasonably with our representatives, I mean after all the GE changed things, even sensibledave could see that.
Turns out it is “beyond the realms of possibility that Westminster may actually give Scotland what it wants”.
Who fucking knew sensibledave.
sensibledave says:
12 May, 2015 at 10:46 am
@ All
As an English “troll”, I know you get all confused when I say, that as far as many of us are concerned, you are pushing against an open door as far as Independence/FFA/autonomy is concerned. But ….
Mr Johnson (Boris) told the Standard: “I genuinely think that after the election we need to have a sit down and people need to think about the future of Scotland. “I want a United Kingdom but we may have to think about a federal structure for the UK. I’m on for that.”
I know it doesn’t fit the meme that the wicked Tories want to continue to oppress the Scots – but if you stop the “victimhood” for a while and actually look outside WoS, you might be surprised by what you find.
sensibledave says:
12 May, 2015 at 12:57 pm
@ donald anderson 11.49
I admit I do not know the ins and outs of the various potential solutions. The point is, contrary to what many think here, there is a will to address the issue. Given the results of the GE in Scotland, how could any democrat think otherwise?
Earlier on in this thread I think, I simply asked, openly and without any “angle”, what solution is the SNP representation in Westminster going for during this Parliament?
… that makes me a “troll” apparently.
I am coming to the conclusion that the SNP don’t actually know the answer to the question.
sensibledave says:
12 May, 2015 at 2:08 pm
@ chalks 1.54
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Westminster might actually want to give Scotland what it wants?
Personally speaking, whilst I am a “unionist”, the last thing I want is a country being forced to stay in the Union when it doesn’t want to be part of it.
At the risk of incurring the wrath of most commenters here again, the referendum vote is a serious issue in determining how far one can go with autonomy, before “the 55%” feel they are the ones being ignored.
K1: if you stop the “victimhood” for a while
In all my years in Scotland I have not once heard anybody make a comment that could be construed at victimisation by England.
There are other manifestations of what can be described as the domination of a small nation by a powerful one, but as for ‘victims’, that’s the mythology painted by those who do not want more democratic powers to reside in Scotland.
It distracts people away from the real issues. It diverts from the realities of power and decisions taken by people who live and work elsewhere.
Grouse, he’s a passive/aggressive prick. With absolutely no understanding of those who live in this country.
I completely concur with you regarding the term ‘victimhood’; he displayed this ‘trait’ repeatedly, and therefore it was a ‘projection’; could not see past his own internalised narrow framework of reference and continually ‘accused’ others of getting at him, thereby indulging his own felt ‘victimhood’. Pathetically transparent.
We need out of this diabolical union, not because we are victims. We are at the mercy of bullies with more numbers than us to enforce gangster rule upon us.
Our standing up to this is hardly ‘victimhood’ it’s the complete opposite, it takes great courage to face the reality of how it is and to continually fight against it.
This is why I constantly go on about how remarkably far we have come without resorting to violence. These bastards are dealing with saints in Scotland. We must be ’cause we are certainly displaying the prerequisite patience thereof.
Here’s one for sensibledave, penned by Dr. Binoy Kampmark, a former Commonwealth Scholar at Selwyn College, Cambridge and lecturer at RMIT University, Melbourne.
UK Prime Minister David Cameron, to take a very conspicuous example, raves against the foundational document of European human rights while claiming Britain can do something better. After all, the Magna Carta was proclaimed at Runnymede, which for Cameron provides the perfect blood and soil argument for British exceptionalism.
link to globalresearch.ca
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