Testing times
Posted on
September 19, 2020 by
Chris Cairns
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Only thing is, we’re not screwed though, are we. No point in even talking about a ‘second wave’ when there wasn’t even a first one.
Neither in Sweden nor the UK was there any hordes dropping down dead in the street, hazard teams gaining entry to property to remove the poisoned dead, no mass graves, no mortuaries burst, no hospital capacity exceeded, no celebrity deaths, top politicians expiring, etc, etc.
On no level does SARS2 fit the ‘deadly’ pandemic definition. Even WHO say it is low consequence.
Plenty of suicides, drug deaths and the count has started for unnecessary cancer and heart deaths – they will exceed ‘from covid’ deaths by at least a factor of 4 over the period. The NHS aren’t heroes, they are cowards for not speaking out.
God help us when SARS3 comes in ten to 15 years, if we cant handle a couple of thousand deaths from SARS2.
If you still think this ‘plan’ rolling out in front of us is the ‘pandemic plan’, then there really is no helping you – you can consider yourself infected, infected by the MSM.
Oh, sorry, correction, we are SCREWED, screwed by the mess made of the economy!!
You do wonder what on earth the Government has been doing, other than awarding large wads of tax payers money to their mates. They’ve simultaneously managed to wreck the nation’s health and the economy at the same time.
Whilst there have been no huge amounts of deaths every person who loses their life unnecessarily is a tragedy. Mr Idiot, you seem to be exactly what is wrong with our society. As long as it doesn’t affect you that’s fine.
I am sick to death of the whole lot of people like you.
We have a young girl in my village, she is struggling to live, her parents cherish her. If she catches Covid she will have a very hard death. Many people have caught this not all die, in fact many are wondering how and when they will get back to normal. The selfish are lucky, given that they may eventually will get back to normal, some Mau never, and given this country’s largesse towards the sick and disabled,heaven help them.
Well said, Helena Brown.
And seriously, go play in the traffic, ahundredthidiot.
ahundredthidiot is a very suitable pseudonym…
The reason we’ve had “only” 41,732 deaths in the UK so far is a result of lockdown restrictions. How many deaths do you think would’ve occurred had we responded in the same as we do with flu? At least 10 times as many would not be an unreasonable estimate. Would 400,000 deaths be acceptable to you?
This is a “little” more than the estimated 600 deaths from flu each year, and still significantly more than an estimated peak of 13,000 in 2008/2009, which occurred under no restrictions, albeitwith a vaccine available that few take up (link to vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk)
When will you covidiots realise that the number of deaths is “low” (if 41,000 avoidable deaths can be described as low) BECAUSE OF THE RESTRICTIONS and the removing restrictions will result in MUCH HIGHER NUMBERS OF DEATHS?!?
Well, some idiot is well named. You don’t need to have people dropping like flies for this to incredibly serious. What was your attitude when Scotland had 84, 83, 83 again and 80 Covid deaths in April? Ridiculous numbers for a nation of 5.45million. That didn’t faze you? Our ICUs came close to being overwhelmed, same across the UK. Then there’s the thousands of people suffering with long term affects. Who knows what kind of long term legacy this will leave.
It’s one thing not just accepting the TV news unthinkingly but sometimes it pays to watch the harrowing reports from the hospitals and the first hand testimony from the bereaved, like the chap from Hamilton on STV last night who lost his wife, a nurse, who looked about forty. Leaving two young kids without a Mum. But you go on believing the idiots who are probably responsible for it returning because they are out there determined to prove that they know best.
No I suspect hundredth idiot is right on this one. We will not be looking back in a few years and thinking we did well on this. Why don’t we adopt the same lockdown measures every year for seasonal flu? That would stop the spread and save lives. The economy is everything and it’s not as if we were doing that well in Scotland BC.
I stopped paying attention to anything the idiot says after he stated that ‘poverty was a lifestyle choice’ on another thread a while back.
ahundredthidiot
Pish.
This talk a second wave is just smoke and mirrors for the incompetence of the UK government by making a total mess of things.
So much time and money wasted on an app and a second try at the app has only been available for a couple of weeks. Look at a wee country like Ireland who has had an app up and running for months and the technology behind it is being used here in Scotland and individual states in the US are planning to use it as well.
Most importantly though, they have been making a total mess of it in England where it should have been dealt with at a local authority level. They started that but even then, they are refusing to hand over the necessary money to those at the local level.
I can go on and on but I’m not going to waste my time because it’s all in the public domain and everybody knows about them.
I’m not saying that here in Scotland has been perfect in comparison. They have made quite a few mistakes themselves but ultimately there is only so much that the Scottish government in the form a devolved administration can do when the UK government can’t do anything sensible.
As a nurse seeing the effects and suffering of those affected by COVID-19, I’m at a loss when I read these comments.
Do you think we are making it up?
Do you think there is no risk because you, personally, have been lucky enough not to have been affected by it?
I wish you well and sincerely hope you remain unaffected.
20188 deaths from flu in Scotland 18/19.A few more than the estimated 600….
pipinghot says: 19 September, 2020 at 8:33 am
The simple reason is that the ordinary flu isn’t as infectious, as deadly or as easy to contain as the coronavirus.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Testing times Read the full article:: Wings Over Scotland […]
Woa. Loads of experts on here. All there are are a bunch of opinions (including mine) only time will tell what happens. Hope the lockdown kings and queens are looking at the effect this is having on the younger generation. Locking down a healthy population is just bonkers. 2020 the year the world collectivly lost it’s mind.
Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
? Albert Einstein
“Like all cults, this new one adeptly represses heresy. . . . In defiance of the Western scientific tradition, which maintains that skepticism of inferences drawn from observation is always in order, and that all accepted conclusions are always subject to review and potential overthrow by new data, the climate catastrophists insist that ‘the science is settled’ (science is never ‘settled’) and that therefore no debate, and no new data, can or should be entertained. Those wishing to advance theories or data contrary to the accepted orthodoxy are not merely wrong, but criminal ‘deniers’ who should be silenced, vilified, and if possible, prosecuted.”
? Robert Zubrin, Merchants of Despair: Radical Environmentalists, Criminal Pseudo-Scientists, and the Fatal Cult of Antihumanism
“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.”
? Galileo Galilei
Who is Hancock? What is he?
[In early 2018, Hancock was the first MP to launch his own smartphone app, which was meant as a social network for him to communicate with his constituents and give people updates in relation to his cabinet role.The head of privacy rights group Big Brother Watch called the app a “fascinating comedy of errors”,after the app was found to collect its users’ photographs, friend details, check-ins, and contact information.]
from Wiki.
To change the comment thread, my initial thought on seeing this week’s cartoon was that the Coronavirus caricature was that of Peter Murrell the Salmondella virus asking his paymaster what to do next. He certainly is toxic to the body politic, and most certainly a creation of a germ warfare laboratory.
But a vaccine is on its way. And with the source of the infection having been discovered, the infection will soon be eradicated.
Juteman
I said poverty was a choice in the West for the healthy.
if the shoe fits.
if not, work three jobs, stop wasting money, avoid debt outside of your house and you’ll be a very wealthy person inside of 15 years – probably a millionaire.
Re SARS2 – I no longer expect a grown up conversation here, or frankly anywhere else, 6 weeks to total meltdown folks, 6 weeks.
maybe NS will save us with another lockdown.
The best strategy for ahundredthidiot & his ilk is to point, laugh & ignore. He’s the covidiot equivalent of a flat-earther or anti-vaxer: it’s pointless engaging with ascientific faith based zoomers, they’re only here to try and divert the threads.
As annoying in their way as spammers like Cameron Brodie of course, but best left to mamble incoherently to themselves in the corner. With luck both will at some point do something so egregious that Stu will kick them in to touch: the BTL comment section would be all the better for it.
Rev Stu,
It’s good that you allow a range of comments on the blog and do not unreasonably apply blocking. But I have to say the trolling posts from the Idiot clutter up the thread of posts. The posts are just inane nonsense. Time he was gone.
shiregirl
You’re not making anything up……single figures in ICU and zero deaths.
First ‘wave’ all dealt with as business as usual within existing capacity – no issues, no contingency needed, no additional resources required.
Not sure why you are making such a drama……I thought you were a ‘hero’.
Seems too much these days to just ask people to do their job without some sort of ‘award’
The WHO put the mortality rate of SARS CoV2 at 0.6%.
The WHO put the mortality rate of flu at 0.1%.
This suggests that if we have a lockdown 6 times longer than the one we had for SARS CoV2, we would save the exact same number of people dying from flu.
Why are we not trying to save all those people from dying of influenza?
I would like to hear an argument that tells us that this coronavirus has not been subject sensationalism and has not been politicised. Devoid of emotion and ad hominem if possible.
Seriously tempted to switch comments off on this post 🙁
Ahundredthidiot,
The NHS workers deserve all the plaudits their getting and I don’t believe attacking them is constructive in anyway whatsoever, it’s totally unwarranted. They’re doing the best job they can under very difficult circumstances.
@ahundredthidiot
I’m a Bioscientist and your assessment is way off. We are only just beginning to count the toll of ongoing debility from even mild Covid infection. Just this weeks comes word of a big uptick in people presenting with kidney damage.
The big problem with Covid versus SARS is that SARS produced a fever very quickly so monitoring the temperature of travellers for eg was an effective way to limit the spread of it. So it was contained. Same with MERS.
Covid as we all know can infect people who fee no effects other than perhaps some listlessness. They then spread it all unknown. No quick and easy temperature test can thus be used to limit it’s spread. We now know of European cases in December. This was circulating before we even knew it. The genie was out of the bottle and running free.
You seem to display manifest ignorance of all this. Yet you pronounce your verdict to the world. You do NOT know what you are talking about.
Chris bang on the money again.
“ahundredthidiot says:
19 September, 2020 at 7:32 am
Only thing is, we’re not screwed though, are we. No point in even talking about a ‘second wave’ when there wasn’t even a first one.”
What a stupid comment to make, there’s over 200,000 folk dead in the USA due to the virus, almost 42,000 dead that we know of in the UK, it would’ve been much more but the lockdown helped reduce deaths. However with so many folk spreading inept rumours like you others aren’t taking precautions and the virus is making a comeback in Scotland and the UK, and Europe.
“20188 deaths from flu in Scotland 18/19.A few more than the estimated 600….”
Please don’t come on my website and spout utter shite. 20,188 is the TOTAL number of ALL deaths from ANY cause (including old age) in Scotland in WINTER 2018-19.
link to gov.scot
Winter deaths from all respiratory diseases (including but not restricted to flu) are generally in the DOZENS, not the thousands, with an unusually high total being 331:
link to thescottishsun.co.uk
Winter figures are nearly always the worst, so a good ballpark figure for flu deaths in Scotland in a typical full year would be somewhere in the 200-400 range, so about 1% of what you claim.
Westminster: So do you think there should be travel restrictions on the British going abroad?
Europe: Yes.
Westminster: But COVID is under control.
Europe: Who mentioned COVID?
.
So sorry for the nurse who this is directed at and to any health workers reading that. I am ashamed of being the same species as that Idiot. Please know that you are deeply appreciated by millions.
Hey Chris, I like the Cartoon offering again. It’s the wee details that make you the genius you are
This was the reference.
“Not sure why you are making such a drama……I thought you were a ‘hero’.”
It disappeared when i put it between HTML arrows.
‘Hey Chris, I like the Cartoon offering again. It’s the wee details that make you the genius you are’
Yes to that. The way Hancock is fumbling away with his back to the corona-amigo as if he is looking for a missing bus ticket. The awareness of a slime mould. Just a normal day of lies and deaths, no biggy.
When this argument starts
I ask the same question and never get an answer
How many frontline staff die annually due to winter flu?
Those who think its nothing really
Have a view
link to bbc.co.uk
“I believe that the horrifying deterioration in the ethical conduct of people today stems from the mechanization and dehumanization of our lives. A disastrous by-product of the development of the scientific and technical mentality. We are guilty. Man grows cold faster than the planet he inhabits”.
Albert Einstein
Trial and error….at the expense of our humanity.
link to globalresearch.ca
Bit of an o/t.
I’m not saying yea or nae but the link in this mornings mail comes up with an “error” message.
Tin foil hat?
Starmer’s chosen a new slogan for Labour.
A New Leadership
How’s that for self-reference?
What I have noticed with Sky News and BBC News, is the use of the term “across the UK”.
It’s as if we are all getting lumped in together.
They are trying to do away with the four separate nation approach.
Scotland never gets a mention now.
We are getting told of over 4000 infections a day, but the english bastards at the Beeb and Sky don’t want to tell you that nearly 4000 of those infections are in England.
So I am against this “National lockdown” that is getting talked about.
If the infections in England are taking off, then Sturgeon should close the fuckin Border and keep the bastards out,,,and in doing so Scotland could avoid being involved in England’s “National lockdown”.
And just to add,,, the English bastards at the Beeb are back to using the term “London, the Capital City of the UK”.
It’s as if they are trying to wipe Scotland off the face of the earth. Probably due to the rise in support for independence.
If England want to have an early “National lockdown”, then go ahead,,,but Sturgeon should try to avoid having a similar lockdown, she doesn’t need to be in lock step with Boris and England.
If things in Scotland get totally out of control, then Sturgeon can start thinking national lockdowns,,,but until then avoid it at all costs.
Is it just me, or is wider reaction to Murrell’s WhatsApp comment strangely muted in our “extended family”?
Be nice to think these folks are taking the time to themselves to do some hard thinking…
It’s one thing to defend a position you‘ve adopted through loyalty when you don’t have access to the evidence, but Murrell’s comments just get nastier and more damning every time you read it, and there’s nothing ambiguous about the stated intention. By all accounts there is a lot more to come. Craig Murray describes this as the tip of the ice berg.
I am unclear whether it was this extract alone which was leaked anonymously to Kenny MacAskill, or whether the forces for good possess the whole dialogue, but joining the dots, I think there is much more that is known.
I might make a suggestion however… We really need to go kindly on those who initially didn’t want believe the SNP‘s malignant shenanigans, it is after all hard to believe, but finally they are now beginning to see the truth emerge… We should treat them we same way we welcome a former NO voter stepping into the light. We are an extended family, squabbles and all, but getting Scottish Independence over the line will require all of us.
What is truly absurd is Craig Murray being fully aware of the truth behind the cloak of secrecy, but now facing prosecution for trying to get the truth out and the sleazy Conspiracy properly discredited and exposed. How, in gods name, is any such prosecution in the public interest? He should be commended for his public service.
The people like Craig Murray aand Alex Salmond have known the truth all along, but respected the vexatious legal constraints put upon them in deference to the rule of law. To be treated like villains is an indictment upon the Courts and their selective and partial interpretation of justice.
Love the depiction of Covid-19, Chris. There a marketing toy in it.
I guess the little sod is here to stay for some time to come. Wonder how long it will take for social rebellion to arise from the restrictions on freedoms, livelihoods and profit?
Your essential weekend reading:
A Comparison With Ireland’s Struggle: link to wp.me
I didn’t know Amal Clooney was Britain’s special Envoy on Media Freedom, a post which she’s now quit. Mrs Clooney would’ve done well to realise that media freedom doesn’t exist within the UK a country she represented.
Broadcasting isn’t devolved to Scotland it never will be, we have no media freedom in Scotland, such as in Catalonia or as in Moldova where a small ethnic group also has its own broadcasting channels.
Of course from the outside, the UK looks like a one big happy family functioning well, the truth however couldn’t be further away from that image.
Breeks @ 10.46pm
I’ve just posted a comment along the lines on WGD of the curious silence about the Murrell communication.
Like you, I hope there’s some contemplation in people’s minds going on, but I fear it’s just ssshhhh and willful ignorance.
This won’t end well, brushing things under carpets never does. Best to face problems head on and deal with it. Ultimately the SNP have been exposed more and more that they have indeed conspired against AS.
Along with the NEC corruption to change the rules concerning JC, – the party machine and leadership is just rotten to the core.
If this was the Tories, am sure all the NS acolytes would be screaming for heads to roll.
I hope there’s some quite reflection going on with some of the party faithful, coz this stinks like a corpse.
O/T Rhiannon Spears has tweeted she believes in devolution and self determination. How do you reconcile that conundrum? And these are the useful idiots the SNP want you to vote for.
Meanwhile Scotsman Andrew Marr is worried sick of what will become of his beloved England when Scotland becomes independent.
Meanwhile another Westminster party leader Ed Davey of the LibDems, has dismissed a second Scottish independence referendum as a distraction.
link to thenational.scot
‘Seriously tempted to switch comments off on this post’
Perhaps all those who like to argue the virus is or is not deadly serious will get it all out of their system on this thread and not keep regurgitating it afterwards.
Thanks Willie and Breeks for the jokes about it.
Great cartoon as usual.
What’s upsetting about this bill that means we are gonna break international law is that it’s going steam rollering through Parliament. I democratically voted for the members of Parliament, therefore I have an input to this Pile of …..
It’s from the etonians and the tax dodgers etc, but history will say Britain voted for it. We voted for this Parliament, the media treat us like scum, cannon fodder. Education is the answer, but we need to be able to see all sides. I got really upset with a neighbour when he referred to the National as a comic! My reply was but it’s the only paper showing the opposite view, freedom of speech, etc etc.
I have to say all this angst is making one fair miffed! One could crush a grape!
That’s well known radical and subversive, Eamonn Holmes, on This Morning, at 8mins 11sec, here –
link to youtube.com
On SCIENTIFIC METHOD, from Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy.
[Occasionally, scientists make sweeping statements about a simple and distinct scientific method, as exemplified by Feynman’s simplified version of a conjectures and refutations method presented, for example, in the last of his 1964 Cornell Messenger lectures. However, just as often scientists have come to the same conclusion as recent philosophy of science that there is not any unique, easily described scientific method. For example, the physicist and Nobel Laureate Weinberg described in the paper “The Methods of Science … And Those By Which We Live” (1995)
“The fact that the standards of scientific success shift with time does not only make the philosophy of science difficult; it also raises problems for the public understanding of science. We do not have a fixed scientific method to rally around and defend”.]
A certain Dominic Cummings is a worshiper at the Feynman altar.
@ kapelmeister @ 10.37am
Hi Kapelmeister…..did you know that Keir thinks Now is not the time to talk about independence but tis time to talk about Brexit and getting it done……Keir has priorities to win back voters t’in North… not so much those voters in the North North cause they disnae help him actually win General Elections ….and he’s doing it deliberately….Keir knows WHO he has to pledge allegiance to and WHO he can afford to ignore…..same old same old…..
Good cartoon Chris…as per.
Idiot – what a foul response to that nurse. Do you take your knowledge from the likes of David Icke? Has he ever got anything right? In fact, best check back to when he presented the snooker to see if he announced the right champion!
You stated a couple of thousand dead in Scotland. The daily, 28 day cut off figure is actually now 2,502 but the truest figure is the weekly one from the NRS, which, allowing for this week’s three deaths, is now a whopping 4,239. Slovakia, with a near identical population, have had only 39 deaths. The death toll I previously mentioned, in the 80s in April, is the death toll we are now seeing as normal in countries with much larger populations than Scotland like South Africa, Iraq and Chile.
As for famous deaths, another giveaway that you don’t follow the news. There are hundreds listed online, many not famous in the UK, many past and present US politicians, but names you might have heard of – Tim Brooke-Taylor, Eddie Large, singer/songwriter John Prine, ex England footballer Norman Hunter, 52 year old Adam Schlesinger of American band Fountains of Wayne and Dave Greenfield of The Stranglers.
Clapper57 @11:59
Aye. Same Auld Mince…that would be a more apt new slogan for Labour.
Ed Davey in Scotland on a “listening tour” and telling us the push for independence is a “distraction”.
Obviously it was meant to be us who did the listening.
link to archive.is
I’ll translate for yous: Get back in your box Jocks.
Message to Sturgeon: Now what? A second request? Tell them you really really mean it this time? That should work eh?
Sturgeon tweeted yesterday for the indyref anniversary. And what photo did she choose? Why, she chose a picture of herself emerging from the polling station in 2014 and being surrounded by cameras.
This is an extreme narcissist.
I see the BBC are going to inject ‘other’ perspectives into FM daily briefings…..well that shouldn’t generate confusion and mixed messages should it ?
A U turn by the BBC….no….a compromise….for who ?…well as per for the Unionist political parties obvs….so they all argued it was too political…(thanks to the journalists questions…say questions but really looking for a headline to quote)…..so in order to offset the Unionist political objections that daily briefing was too ‘political’ they are now going to make it MORE ‘political’ and less Health driven by including ‘other’ perspectives…..
Talking of FM ‘political’ daily updates….I see the FM of Wales made a political comment re Boris Johnson the other day in his daily update……….did that awaken Foulkes from his stupor…
I assume BBC Wales will also be including ‘other’ perspectives in Wales FM daily updates…and also if Boris and his team deems to grace the English with THEIR presence and give one of their rare and intermittent updates on Covid then they too will have ‘other’ perspectives inflicted upon them……….
Obvs I jest…as none of the ‘B’s’ in BBC could stand for Balance but one of them could stand for Biased…..and we know who for…don’t we….and they’re doing it deliberately too….
L’shana tova…
link to jewishpress.com
Now why didn’t La Sturgeon think of that!
Orgasmic!
I know I should be getting this Lock up Lock down masks distance stuff written in tablets of Stone stuff but I am not it’s not making sense ,any deviation from group think is frowned on .
After all these months we are led to believe we are almost back at Square One , if in fact we are then all these precautions haven’t worked , why haven’t they worked it’s because there seems to be no precautions we can adopt are making the slightest bit of difference ,
When I go out I see almost everyone wearing all sorts of protection all believing that they are protected in some way , there are no more things people can do without living like bloody hermits and having no contact with anyone else , that’s some existence eh ,
I listened to a exchange between a English university professor and a LBC presenter , the presenter put it to the professor the way Norway approached this Covid stuff and the verifiable results was way ahead of the UK ,she insisted the UK and Norway were following the same guidelines,
The presenter was backed up by a Norwegian public health professor , despite actual real world results , this English professor couldn’t come to terms with the fact different results were seen by applying the same London university Model but doing it in a completely different way (i.e.) not closing down everything in sight ,
This English professor continued to say no , the way the UK were doing it was right , despite proof I wonder if this thinking is driving the second Armageddon mantra in England , it’s obvious now this Lock up isn’t working , if it was we wouldn’t be having these questions
The long term consequences of another lockdown will be catastrophic: unemployment with all the dismal, corrosive things that follow, plus domestic violence, alcoholism and untreated illnesses. It is particularly harsh to inflict this burden on the young in order to protect the old, especially when the old are by common consent the luckiest generation in history (and, to be controversial, when the old keep voting to restrict the young’s chances in the economic sphere and, no doubt, will keep up the ingratitude). Another way of putting it is that, in economic terms, the effect of lockdown on Scotland has been about as severe as Margaret Thatcher’s exorbitant interest rates, and everyone who uses this site knows how that turned out.
Only complete numpties (or, more likely, mindless, attention-seeking trolls)- like Idiot would deny that it is a thing. A fairly healthy woman in her early sixties that I know died of it, and even when people rather coldly say “only the vulnerable will die” that includes rather a lot of people whose lives have a value, and many won’t know that they’re vulnerable until they get it. But simply saying “total lockdown now” is insane. No offence to those of you employed this way, but it does tend to be people employed in the public sector who feel this, while those of us who need to earn money from selling things are literally seeing the catastrophe unfold in our balance sheets. We can take the hit and do without a summer holiday for a year or two, but nobody can do without a house or food! But more importantly, there is also the issue of, if we are all going to get it, is lockdown merely delaying the inevitable, and therefore, would just “getting it over and done with” be the wisest, and in the long run, most humane thing to do? I don’t have the expertise to say “follow Sweden” but they seem to have it under control (that of course may change) while we are listening, again, to professor Ferguson, who has a Scottish Labour-esque record of getting things wrong. Sentimental declarations that “if you don’t support ‘doing something’ you don’t care!” are no way to make such important decisions. From where I’m standing, we should try and protect the vulnerable (yes, easier said than done) and otherwise keep things open, with sensible precautions.
Covid deniers, anti-vaxers, evolution deniers, people who believe the earth is only thousands of years and those who slavishly follow conspiracy theories all follow the same path.
Rule No 1:
Start with the answer and only allow that answer to be correct.
Rule No 2:
Ignore, rubbish or flat-out deny anything that doesn’t fit with rule no 1.
Rule No 3:
Scour the internet to find stuff that fits with rule no 1 and use rule no 2 on anything that doesn’t fit with rule no 1.
You see this pattern time and time again on the internet.
All it achieves is that you get the answer you want and are unlikely to get the answer that is correct.
-Robert Graham-
Correct. It has now become “the accepted thing to think” to be pro-lockdown, and educated professionals are expected to support it. This of course means that in order to signal membership of the in-group one has to vehemently support restrictions. You wouldn’t want to be lumped in with Peter Hitchens, or the salt-of-the-earth lorry driver from Manchester who famously called his first pint of Carling (!) in months “like an angel p*****g on the top of my tongue” now, would you?
@George Wood,
Brilliant. Can’t stop lahghing.
@ kapelmeister @ 12.21pm
“Ed Davey in Scotland on a “listening tour”
So Kapelmeister, as we all expected, we are being given the Full house treatment in Scotland…..have we no been here before ?
Lib Dems..” listening tour”…..don’t tell me…don’t f**king tell me…but can I guess WHO he is listening to on his ‘tour’ of the North North….would it be the ‘silent majority’ in favour of the Union in Scotland….
Those who are so ‘silent’ and such a ‘majority’ that they hide their ‘majority’ when they fail to vote by a ‘majority’ for Unionist parties at Holyrood and General elections and thus fail to win a majority of seats for Unionist parties by a majority…..so seems if you support independence silence is indeed golden within Scotland…by a majority …..Lol
Ed Davey…..the applicant who won his leadership from the SHORT list…….ironic that Ed should be on a ‘LISTENING tour’ in Scotland when his targeted audience have stated they are the ‘SILENT majority’…..
Have a good day
A Person
Agree with you totally.
Hundredthidiot goes a little bit over the top but he is not far wrong, in my opinion.
There is no definitive answer to this but, as someone of 75plus, it breaks my heart to see the life chances of the young being decimated by impending economic ruin.
I feel for our politicians, as this is not easy, but merely to listen to scientists is not the answer. They, quite naturally, will argue for draconian lockdowns as they do not need to consider the whole picture.
There are lots of pluses and minuses to lockdowns but the minuses of poverty, Unemployment, lack of education,depression, non Covid illnesses going untreated, alcoholism, lack of liberty etc seem to me to outweigh the benefits.
On a personal level, back in March, my wife and I said that we did not want any special protection and our family have respected our wishes entirely. As a consequence, we have had a superb social life which we, otherwise, would not have had. We have, therefore added to our quality time on this earth.
Everyone has a time to go and, whenever that comes, so be it.
For the young and those of working age the chances of death by Covid are minimal and they should be free to get on with life.
Going about in a muzzled state is no way to live one’s life.
Enjoy life and be happy whilst you can but take reasonable and sensible precautions.
FFS, we are literally living the trolley problem and some idiots are actually having the audacity and heartlessness to sacrifice the care homes thinking that the only thing to worry about is death!
The reason why the same strategy as Norway/Sweden isn’t working is people are too thick and selfish to understand the consequences to society except for “but the economy!” and ignore the rules. How many times are you washing your hands? Do you even know how far 2 metres is when your pal is patting you on the shoulder whilst stood in the doorway at Tesco?!
If your ‘libertarian’ views drive you to conclude that simple hygiene rules are “groupthink” and government intrusion then maybe you should move your prepper’s bunker to Montana!
I honestly don’t know what to believe.
I dont trust Mainstream Media which we know does what they are told to say, but i also dont know if i believe other Conspiracy views- the Hong Kong Scientist kicked off Twitter after saying on US TV that covid was created in a lab, the UN funded by Rockerfellers & Bill Gates, the doctors & scientists on various Brand New Tube videos saying virus is real or virus is fake?
People, Governments & organisations have agendas to lie or could be telling the truth or variations of the truth. Many of the same people, Govs & Orgs are lying about the transwomen are women thing but maybe they believe it. Also it is known Jeffrey Epstein & his associates blackmailed Scientists as well as politicians.
We should all do our own research and not rely on others. FWIW i believe virus is real as a friend had it & hospitalised in March but i think its really a strong Flu & pandemic is exaggerated but i dont know who by or why.
link to brandnewtube.com
Tester to see if comments still appearing.
New post as e-mailed still hasn’t appeared either…
-Pete-
Im afraid I don’t agree with a hundredth idiot. Th virus is real, can be nasty and does kill. His comment to the nurse who posted was out of order. Sorry that happened to you shiregirl. Personally I will accept social distancing, wearing a mask etc for a while if asked- and unlike many Scotsmen of my generation, I was brought up to wash my hands frequently!
I agree with you re: doctors, I’m not intelligent enough to be a doctor but their job is to give advice re: the medical aspects of the crisis. It’s for politicians to consider that advice in the context of other advice on the economy etc. to make the correct decision for the public interest. No easy solutions so have some sympathy for the politicians. But if we wanted to be governed by Jason Leitch and Chris Whitty- not to disparage those two gentlemen, they are no doubt working hard- they should stand for election.
@Somerled
It is difficult, because their is so much misinformation from the likes of Bipod, Ahundrethidiot, right wing groups, Libertarians, conspiracy websites etc.
Just look at the response of the world’s governments. They are willing to go into a deep recession, because they are shitting themselves over this virus. If there was a conspiracy, it wouldn’t affect all the governments, it would be a few governments falling for it.
What nobody seems to or unwilling to admit is that the virus transmissions went through the rock after the schools went back and now we have the universities back, it will only go higher.
Before we go any further, you simply can’t lock the kids away or stop our young people from studying. A society can’t survive without an educated population.
At the start of the pandemic, we had to make a lot of sacrifices through loss of freedom with the lock down to protect the vulnerable and those in care homes. We have got back to a bit of normality by opening up the economy but we have to continue to make sacrifices in order to protect the old and vulnerable but also the young so they can get an education.
It isn’t hard or rocket science. Just follow the FACTS advice given by the Scottish government and we can get on with our lives as best as we can.
People go on about the economy being destroyed but think about how more the economy will suffer with our young population with no education.
george wood says: 19 September, 2020 at 1:58 pm
There are a few governments like Brazil and America who are trying to buck the trend but look at their death and infection rates. Even Sweden had to change strategy when they saw that it wasn’t working.
We have just come out from a lock-down and have a more, shall we say, simpler life where we don’t have as much variety to enjoy our leisure time. It means that a lot of people have too much time on their hands and it’s easy for these conspiracy theories to get out of control.
We need to get through the current trend of schools & uni’s coming back, the winter seasons and get lots of data through track and trace in order to manage the virus through a risk perspective then we can get back to a bit of normality.
The way I look at it, we are all putting our lives on hold for a while. Everybody does this throughout their lives with changes whether it is moving into your new house, starting a family, moving to a different area, changing a career or simply retiring. This is nothing different.
For all those who say that this putting our lives on hold while become the new normality, we living in a market economy. The only way for that to happen is for economic activity and freedom to consume. Every government in the world is desperate to get back to that so they are not going to do anything that would endanger that.
-George Wood-
I don’t think it is a conspiracy, it’s a terrible disease, , but I am asking whether this is really a good call? While you are closed down, the virus doesn’t just get bored and go home, it sits there waiting as Australia is seeing now. They locked down hard, got lots of praise, reopened and THEN got hit by the virus, with the result that they are now in an even harsher lockdown. Meanwhile Sweden kept itself open and the virus seems- for now! It may return!- to be under control. I’m no expert but that jumps out to me.
Moreover, even if a lockdown is the best strategy, there is an argument that the social devastation it causes is worse than the disease. As I say the effects will be not unlike what Thatcher did to Scottish communities.
It’s nit a binary choice, it doesn’t need to be “lockdown” or “let it rip”.
If you don’t mind my saying, you said earlier that many conspiracy theorists looked for the answer first and then play up evidence to support it and attack anyone who argues otherwise. But this could apply equally to people who seek a lockdown (“we need to have a lockdown” “what about Sweden?” “oh so you don’t care, you heartless bastard”), especially as it has rapidly become socially unacceptable for educated professionals to be anti-lockdown.
Just have to make a somewhat angry interjection here:
@ George Wood
‘Governments’ aren’t going into deepest recession. Neither are the larger companies.
We are. The small folk. Our communities and our countries.
You’d think in the comments section of a blog that, on the surface, appears to understand the basic self serving dynamics of capitalism AND the political class there would be a little more basic understanding of this at the very minimum
I agree with George & Pacman but would add that when individuals put their lives on hold in the examples you give, they choose to do it, they aren’t forced into it.
Some of the very draconian methods in NZ & Australia are very worrying
I also have concerns about China, they don’t have a good record on human rights & as a communist regime they dont care about the West’s capitalism. They dont seem to have been very honest about when the virus started either.
Why hasnt there been more deaths in China?
Where is the independent peer reviewed medical advice from WHO?
Who supervises WHO?
Who benefits from a global recession?
Shaun Attwood did some very good impartial interviews on Youtube with people for and against, Conspiracy people as well as Virus experts for & against but they were all ordered to be removed by Youtube but i think are now on BrandNewTube.
I believe some conspiracies but this one is harder to believe so i keep an open mind.
Just my opinion on the economic aspects of the pandemic.
Effectively, every part of the economy in every country was virtually shutdown for nearly 3 or 4 months until it was slowly and gradually opened up again. That came as a cost where countries have had to pump billions into the economy to keep it going.
Even though it is slowly opening up, the UK economy is particularly affected because we are essentially a service sector economy with little or no manufacturing. Scotland is even worse effected because a large parts of the country is dependent on tourism.
There is no doubt that sections of our economy will never recover. The most obvious one is the nighttime economy where music isn’t allowed and the high street that was dependent largely on office workers who are now working from home.
I’m not sure if there is a solution to fix this. Being used to working from home, I’m sure a lot of people won’t want to give that up and companies will enjoy getting rid of the cost of running offices.
While parts of the economy will disappear, others will take it’s place. You can see that with restaurants joining with takeaways and delivering restaurant quality food to homes. Entrepreneurs will also fill this gap as they exploit new markets created by this vacuum.
The bottom line though, if Scotland was independent or at least had a greater control of our economy we could have borrowed more to deal with the particular issues facing the Scottish economy in order to keep it ticking over until it adapted to the new circumstances that I had mentioned. However, the furlough is going to end in a couple of weeks time and all hell is going to break loose.
Somerled, I know that we are being coerced into putting our lives on hold but we aren’t living in a prison planet and as you mentioned, the methods put in place by other countries to deal with the pandemic are far worse.
I think it really boils down to how well you can adapt to changed situations.
For myself, I like outdoor activities like hikes, cycling etc and enjoy the occasional night-outs or just a pint or two at the weekend. I’ve only started going out socially and the pubs are pish with no music or atmosphere. I won’t be back out again. I’ve still got the outdoor activities that I enjoy so I’ll be all right. The way I look at it, a change is better than a rest.
There are others who won’t be able to adapt and will fall pray to problems like mental health issues and alcoholism. It is going to be tougher particularly here where we have a culture based heavily on alcohol consumption.
A lot of people talk about the economic cost of the pandemic but little on the cost to individual peoples lives. While I am trying to be optimistic about things but collectively, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Nice George Wood. Makes a change to read a well-balanced fact based comment.
I scroll past the angry and unbalanced…they’re all idiots!
-PacMan-
I don’t share your long-term pessimism re: those Industries.
Eventually this situation will have to end and that will result in the resumption of nightlife. Obviously their plans are now on hold, but some venue owners I know were planning to restart gigs in late October. The desire to socialise cannot be suppresses forever.
City centres have been hammered and it’s likely that many firms will indeed continue working from home afterwards. However smaller high streets have seen an uptick in trade what with more people at home. Personally I’d rather have a hundred thriving neighbourhoods than grim Glasgow city centre dominating the service economy.
As you say the crisis does underline how dependent our economy is on services, which are a somewhat ephemeral thing.
@A Person
You have to be careful, when you use Sweden as an example for the benefits of doing nothing regarding Covid.
Sweden has one of the highest single person flat occupancy rates in the world. It has a huge advantage in regard to virus transmission. I live by myself and my risk of getting this virus is much less than those who don’t.
Swedes were not just carrying on as normal as if there were no virus. Opinion polls showed that the majority of Swedes were copying practises in other countries. There is evidence of that here in Britain with English people following what NS is saying to do rather than BoJo.
Obviously Lockdown will cause harm, but so to will doing nothing or not enough. Governments have a horrible choice between two evils. The fact that so few are going down the do nothing route would indicate that that leads to a worse outcome.
Great cartoon Chris. If you don’t already, you should post them on Twitter. Could get you a global audience 🙂
@Joe 2.22
A keyboard class warrior are you?
I’ve done all that class war crap in the past and it didn’t get me or the world anywhere.
In 1982, I walked out of my final university exams because I was heading into a profession which offended my left wing principles. It was brought to a head by the Falklands war.
I’m still paying for that now. All my friends have retired early and I’m going to have to soldier on until I’m 66.
It doesn’t matter what political system you have, there will always be inequality.
-George Wood-
I’m certainly not arguing for no mitigation measures, and I fully complied with all social distancing rules. However, to close down small shops, pubs, cafes, beauty salons will prove to be overkill imo.
I wasn’t aware of the flat occupancy thing, that does change it slightly as I assume a great deal of transmission took place in the home.
It is as you say a very difficult decision for anyone to have to make.
If the death toll from SARS CoV2 is the only measurement that people consider why, when and what type of lockdown we have, they should be able to explain why other factors have no value such as the effect on the younger generation who will be paying for the decisions we make for decades financially, socially, physically and psychologically.
So please explain why you consider the younger generation’s life chances, mental health, financial prosperity and physical well being as expendable or acceptable collateral damage.
George Wood, why don’t you start?
A Person says: 19 September, 2020 at 3:40 pm
While I had said I don’t miss going out for a pint, I am dying to listen to live music. I’m not so sure about gigs starting up in later October given the current spike in transmissions. Is that late October next year?
You are right about local town centres benefiting from WFH.I had recently been up in Glasgow City centre for the first time since well before the start of the lock down. It is still depressing as ever. Apart from the people up there who are amazing, I wouldn’t mourn the passing of it as a commercial entity.
Using Glasgow city centre as an example, they could replace the shut businesses as housing and the population influx could support the business that are still there. The businesses that make up the late night industry could be moved along the waterfront much like the tourist strips of Med holiday spots. Having a waterfront view would make going out socially would pleasanter and easier to manage the social issues caused by it.
While I am being pessimistic about certain sectors of the economy, there is an opportunity to transform and rejuvenate parts of it. What I am trying to say is that some sectors will disappear and others will pop up in it’s place.
@Breastplate
You don’t seem to realise that there are economic and health consequences if we don’t do something now. It is basically a choice between two evils.
I wouldn’t want to be in the situation where the NHS has collapsed because of the number of Covid patients. There will be economic consequences if there are large numbers of deaths.
George,
I don’t think you understand my perspective as I have quite clearly stated a number of factors that should come under consideration.
You mention we should do something, could you be more precise in what you suggest should be done?
Also, what economic consequences and what figure are you talking about when you mention large number of deaths?
A Person, nice hearing someone talk sense regarding covid
@Breastplate
I also wonder about the wider consequences of covid other than just avoiding the virus.
What are the potential longer term implications for infants and toddlers being restricted in who and the number of people they can interact with.
I have heard of two infants that had only been held by 3 people in their entire lives (6 months old) due to lockdown and maintaining physical distancing measures.
Those formative years and experiences are extremely important factors in the positive development of a well balanced individual.
We already know the consequences of poverty and inequality and the negative affect they can create and which society has to deal with.
When we add in stunted social and cognitive faculties due to restricting their diversity of interactions there’s every chance this will result in problems for them in the future.
As an aside, we always seem to be getting figures of infections in the headlines.
There was the cluster with around 200 folk testing positive in Coupar Angus. Out of that 200, how many were asymptomatic, how many required medical intervention due to the severity of their symptoms, how many develop “long covid”, and how many if any unfortunately died?
This information would give some much needed perspective so folk can begin to establish actual risk rather than the constant fear factor created by the omission of that sort of data.
Agreed Dan,
All I can ask and what we should all expect is due and thoughtful consideration given to all factors regarding consequences and not just a narrow scope that is then hi jacked by the media and sensationalised to scare the bejesus out of people and our society.
Perhaps, that is too much to ask.
I think there’s a flu virus doing the rounds which was hijacked by the Event 201 crowd and used as a *simulation* to their pandemic exercise. You can do all the talking in the world but that will never be a substitute for real life experience, so the WHO was induced to become involved and they dutifully proclaimed this flu to be a pandemic. Governments around the world bought into this scenario and now have become too embroiled to backtrack and admit that they were duped and got it wrong.
It IS a scam which has gotten out of control.
link to centerforhealthsecurity.org
The WHO recognises the IFR of covid as 0.6% for now. Many other reputable organizations already consider it to be lower than that. Iceland which has done more per captita testing than anywhere else suggests an IFR of 0.16%. At the start of the pandemic the CFR and IFR will always be estimated to be higher because the only cases you see are the ones who are seriously ill. Now with mass testing we are seeing the estimated IFR value fall across all age groups. For the 80+ age group the IFR has shrank from 30% to 11% it will surely get lower. For those younger than 50 the risk is virtually 0, it is a statistical fact that the flu is more dangerous than covid in that demographic.
I am sure that even those on here who are keen on lockdowns understand that a two week “circuit breaker” (such a ridiculous name) lockdown is pointless, you either need to go much longer and accept all of the massive consequences that come with that or do something entirely different. Sweden had no lockdown but did introduce light measures such as social distancing, a public hygiene campaign and restricted gatherings to 50 (which has recently been increased to 500). Its not comparable to what was done here in the UK or in France, Spain or Belgium. Sweden had a clear, consistent and sustainable approach that is now showing its benefits, but we are now trapped in an endless cycle of easing lockdowns and then reimposing them.
We aren’t doing well on this Pandemic. We just happen to be doing way better than the murderous English/Brit Tories and their lickspitles in Scotland. We wont get any better either until the Border with Toryland gets closed to stop us being swamped by selfish Landowning and Holiday Home owning and Mobile Home owning etc Tory Plague carriers.
—————————————————-
Oh
Pipinghot says:
19 September, 2020 at 8:47 am
20188 deaths from flu in Scotland 18/19.A few more than the estimated 600….
You are talking pish. Thousands of excess deaths. You are obviously a Brit Nat along with those other Brit Nat Conspiracy theorists with their heids stuck up their Tory arses. Well that or the arse of Douglas Ross.
-Tartanpigsy-
Thank you.
-PacMan-
Have you ever been to Bristol? They are also a former port city, but rather than build horrible plastic rubbish a la Glasgow, they really rejuvenated their waterfront. It’s a pleasure to walk along.
I’m afraid that even pre-lockdown I avoided Glasgow city centre as it is frankly a midden. Sauchiehall Street, regarded in my childhood as one of the grandest commercial streets in Europe, is a national disgrace.
I was surprised that my friend had been planning to restart gigs in this October, but hopefully they can resume soon.
A Person says: 20 September, 2020 at 1:46 am
I haven’t been to Bristol but I had been to Newcastle and I always remembered the waterfront bars there as well as how modern that City was.
Then again, both those cities didn’t have the cronyism and nepotism that Glasgow has suffered for decades.