Temporary service interruption
Posted on
March 26, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
See you Monday, readers.
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
@Les Wilson
BBC mistake. Conference scheduled for tomorrow.
Where are you from quiz: East Scotland.
Interesting as the family all live in Ayrshire! (But I am looking to buy something in Edinburgh when I return – are they trying to tell me something?)
@Ronnie – noted 🙂
I wasn’t either until I was told to be 😉
Ooooh page 2 …
According to the UK maps on that site LA, it seems Scotland in general is very agreeable, more so than any other part of the U.K.
How can that be? Its filled with evil nationalists and vile cybernats that want to destroy U.K democracy, the world, perhaps even the solar system!!
@ chalks
Even if it meant we lost the referendum it was still the right thing to do. People who live here are “us” and it is right they should have a vote on our future.
That case was made and I fully accepted it before the vote: I fully accept it now.
Sometimes you suffer for principle, and that is how you can tell it is a principle, really
Kevin Evans says:
27 March, 2015 at 3:53 pm
How we all holding up?
Have we started eating each other yet?
No, but here in W Glenrothes/Kinglassie we roasted Labour yesterday, Gather they had a BBQ in Buckie too!
Jim Thomson says:
Ooooh page 2 …
My God, what have we done?!
@ronnie anderson
No email address required Ronnie, couldn’t give a shit anyway as I’m sure they already have mine 🙂
@Kevin Evans
“Have we started eating each other yet?”
Nah, at least not yet. Last time the Rev took a break immediately after the referendum it was so much easier. There were a lot of bruised and battered Yes supporters who were easy pickings.
No easy pickings this time, everyone a lot stronger so Yes supporters are off the menu. We’ll just have to satisfy ourselves with gnawing on the bones of the Scottish branch office of the Labour party. Love that marrow 🙂
Kevin Evans says:
27 March, 2015 at 3:53 pm
How we all holding up?
Have we started eating each other yet?
Naw we hivna Kevin,and before that happens we,ll awe go to the Foodbank on the same day, that DimJim volunteers at.
telling these people that the Vow was a lie most likely will not be enough to convince them without a strong economic case to back up
David i am not telling anyone THE VOW is nothing much at all. UKOK media have told us all THE VOW’s been delivered, and clearly it has not.
The Smith Commission was a waste of time and now we have same giant British lie machine explaining THE VOW had little or now effect which is fine and dandy but we’re going to find out just how much they are actually believed May 7.
Maybe voters really don’t care about THE VOW but all polls say they do, although same teamGB propaganda hasn’t tried to actually explain why SLabour are going to lose some or a lot of power in Scotland, because openly and honestly thrashing this end of SLabour era inventively pulls THE VOW fraud into focus again and so on.
Look at it this way, Crash Gordon Brown hasn’t been seen anywhere even mentioning THE VOW fraud ever. Funny that.
Had I been a No voter I would not want people to think the Vow swayed me in any manner. I would want people to assume I was an intelligent thinking person who knew his mind without outside influences.
There is no doubt the Vow confirm many dithering voters they could vote NO without devaluing their country’s chance of increased democracy.
The Vow reinforced decisions. And it did sway others.
The rest were English who feel British, and foreign students who were worried about their grants.
Sorry for going O/T peeps but I’m reading over on Twitter that a certain political party has had its latest party political broadcast thingy pulled because of copyright issues. Now as everyone knows I have never been much of a blabbermouth and I refuse to start now. 😛
Oh O.K. O.K. if you insist I’ll tell you but you must promise not to tell anyone else O.K.? 😉
It was … erm … a Scottish political party. WHIT? You want MORE? O.K. O.K. it was the branch office. THERE. I’ve told you … now can I go? 😀
“According to the media I’m a cunning, whinging, drunken, doped scrounger who’s a drain on the English purse.”
So you are a member of the House of Lords then?
@Jim McIntosh
Totally agree with what you said Jim. None of us like to feel conned and memory can be selective.
However the interesting fact that we already knew (but this research has proved categorically) is that native born Scots voted Yes while those born in the rest of the UK voted No – so essentially the English determined our future. Annoying but true (and I personally still agree with the decision over who was entitled to vote in the ref). But if we have to accept that then surely it also works the other way round? ie where’s the problem with the SNP having a say in Westminster? In fact this is morally far more acceptable as Westminster is the govt of the Uk – not England – or so it should be. But therein lies the problem – they think it is the govt of england and our votes are meaningless and should be worth nothing unless they support the establishment. We are effectively nothing more than a colony.
Can you imagine come a referendum on Europe if the majority of English born vote to leave the EU but the votes of EU nationals tip the result in favour of staying in the EU? They wouldn’t like it up ’em Captain Mainwaring. And let us not forget that only 46% of the TOTAL number of adults elligible to vote could be arsed putting a cross in the box of the largest empire the world has known – doesn’t sound that much of a ringing endorsement when you consider the forces of Westminster and their cronies did everything in their power to safeguard the union, does it?
Anyway the future is bright, the future is freedom – 62.5% of 16-19 year olds voted Yes – and I bet the majority had read Wings.
So when are we getting Stu in the National?
And even when the test card wasn’t being broadcast, this happened…
link to scottcreighton.co.uk
“David Ross, leader of Fife Council and Alan Seath’s (Labour) campaign agent, said:
“We now need to put the message out that come the GE, any other vote, other than for Labour, will put the Tories back in power”.”
A useful reminder that Labour comes in three layers,
separated only by the thickness of the gravy :-
MP’s, MSP’s and Local Government Councillors.
Removing Labour MP’s from Scotland in GE15 is only stage one.
Layer two, the MSP’s at Holyrood, must be removed in 2016,
and the Labour Cooncillors in 2017.
I hope you’ve all ‘signed up’ to stand behind Nicola
for three years minimum.
Just back from AS Q&A,book signing session at Tivoli Theatre Aberdeen,pleased to report at least a couple of hundred folk,a good 50% at least under 30 years old,50/50 gender balance.
AS in fine form very well received,The Dream Will Never Die 🙂
Personally I don’t agree with foreign nationals voting on a different countries independence. It’s just wrong on such an emotive subject. Say Germany were in a union with Poland and had a similar vote and outcome and their huge number of Polish immigrants swung the vote do you think the Germans would meekly accept it like we did? Aye right.
Lesley -Anne 4.38
Two things
1)I don’t think there is a topic to be off.
2)Cut the crap! Never mind the teasing!
D)Spill all the beans!
@ David Wardrope
Where were you in September last year!
I got a text from my daughter on 8th September ” Yougov poll just out. Yes are on 51%”
Electric atmosphere – well that’s it then – its going to be a YES. The polls had been gradually building up to YES over the previous few weeks.
Then all hell broke out with the London pols flying up shouting about Devo Max, Home Rule and Federalism. Defo! All against purdah rules and the Edinburgh Agreement and common decency too.
By the 18th the polls had obviously slipped back.
So don’t let the MSM rewrite history just before the election!
As far as I know, only about 100,000 foreign nationals voted in the referendum. They were all resident in Scotland.
Half a million English Welsh and Northern Irish also voted: but they are not foreign nationals. They were all resident in Scotland too.
Who would you disenfranchise and how and why?
Just asking, how do we know if he is ok, has the State arrested Stu, I am posting this with a bit of humour but is someone watching his back for all of us.
Fiona-I was classing the rest of the UK as foreign nationals too. After all we were voting to be a separate nation!
@ Cactus says:
“The fellowship of the wings continues.. one wing links us all.”
Pure inspiration Cactus – love it!
@Auld Sandy
And all.
Apologies for not checking the most recent figures. The percentage over 65 in Scotland is now 17% and for England and Wales it is 16%, so I was wrong. It was the other way round not long ago.
You lot need to start making babies 🙂
We had 4 so we’ve done our bit.
Mealer says:
Lesley -Anne 4.38
Two things
1)I don’t think there is a topic to be off.
2)Cut the crap! Never mind the teasing!
D)Spill all the beans!
Oh O.K. thanks Mealer. It’s just I can never be sure these days if:
a) there is a topic
b) it is too early to go off topic if there is a topic
c) I’m the village idiot teasing is what I do
d) I leave all the crap for Murph the Smurph etc he is expert in that area
e) there is no way I’m spilling the beans … I need them all for my tea!
Caledonius says:
According to the UK maps on that site LA, it seems Scotland in general is very agreeable, more so than any other part of the U.K.
How can that be? Its filled with evil nationalists and vile cybernats that want to destroy U.K democracy, the world, perhaps even the solar system!!
I think the answer Caledonius is put down simply to all that Lovin’ Feeling we received from Dan Suff in September last year. We received sooo much Lurve that we had no where to put it all hence what you see now. 😀
In case anyone has forgotten what I’m on about. 😉
link to youtube.com
So you do not object to the current calls to prevent Scots having equal representation at Westminster, then? I do object to that.
They are not foreign nationals: that is a fact. Nor did all of them vote NO, though the majority apparently did.
The people who live here are the Scots. Some of them did not vote for independence. No surprise. I am not apt to go about slicing the scots up into smaller and smaller units in order to secure my preferred outcome. I don’t think that is decent and I don’t think it is democratic
Joemcg 4.53
That’s a legitimate point of view,but one I don’t agree with.Hundreds of thousands of Scottish born,working class non pensioner people voted for continued London rule.15% couldn’t even be arsed to vote.Or should I say,WE failed to motivate 15% to get off their backsides and vote for a better Scotland.But it’s moving our way.Independence is inevitable if we are determined enough.
Joemcg says:
27 March, 2015 at 4:53 pm
Personally I don’t agree with foreign nationals voting on a different countries independence. It’s just wrong on such an emotive subject. Say Germany were in a union with Poland and had a similar vote and outcome and their huge number of Polish immigrants swung the vote do you think the Germans would meekly accept it like we did? Aye right.
I was born in England, came to Scotland when I was 17 and have been here for 50 years, I also voted YES.
You begin to see the problem with your argument.
That argument is null and void now Fiona as the proudscotsTM voted to make us Brits. Allegedly.
It is the same thing Joemcg. At the point of the referendum we were all part of one system: and sadly, we still are. That is the reality. They did not vote for change and there has been none
Indeed we do Ronnie Anderson. We need two Wings tae fly high or two million tae soar above 🙂
Today is Friday payday weekend for many.. so have a smashin’ one you lovely Scotland you X
Any thoughts on a topic for tomorrows Saturday Soapbox you readers?
(no doubt this TSI thread will have about two thousand comments come Monday morn)
@ronnie anderson says: 27 March, 2015 at 4:31 pm:
“Naw we hivna Kevin,and before that happens we,ll awe go to the Foodbank on the same day, that DimJim volunteers at.”
Ach! But! Ronnie, Thirs no afu muckle guid pickins aff Slim, Dim, Jim. No jist that bit he maun bi muckle teuch intak an muckle wersh iz weel.
I know a large number of different nationalities voted yes. Although by all accounts this was dwarfed by them voting the other way. My best friend is Russian and voted no and he only moved to Scotland 3 months ago! It’s my opinion and it just seems wrong to me.
It is a shame we do not have the facility to start new topics while Stu is away. Many of you could comment on things which are happening now, I think, and it would be interesting. But no matter: we seem to be getting by
Just seen this on Twitter.
Percentage increases
> GLENROTHES Up +24%
> BUCKIE Up 23.5%
> ARMADALE Up 20.4%
> BENBECULA Up 24.4%
Increase in S.N.P. vote across theboard in the four by elections of 20% or MORE! 😛
So maybe someone can explain the Maths to me, out of NOs Winning margin of 400,000 votes how many votes were foreign nationals / English ‘Brits’ ? I’m just trying to see if it made any real difference to Yes losing or not.
Before the vote ^
Never mind my last question, Fiona sort of answered it.
Moved to Scotland from where?
I’m pretty sure it was around the 400,000 mark.
@ LA
20% huh? Exactly what some of the more generous polls have been showing. Who would have thought! We can do this… Just 40 more days!
Joe, if we are all going to agree that there is an agenda of ‘rewriting of history’ about that survey and it’s also suspect that it’s been released so near the GE? It would seem that emphasising the ‘foreign’ born voters who voted No would be part of that very strategy.
I.E. To stir up crap?
I’m in agreement with other posters on this; All people who live in Scotland had their say. Whether it worked out the way I wanted it is neither here nor there. We cannot fall into their narrative it only serves to ‘divide’, which is their sole purpose.
Let’s not be ‘fooled’ by statistics…we had enough of that during the campaign.
My parents voted No, born and bred in Scotland…there’s jist no enough trees 😉
(that wiz a joke…honest)
Oh dearie me.
It appears that the Press and Journal are running a wee *ahem* opinion poll peeps. It does not appear to be going well for the *cough* Tories, that is the RAINBOW Tories. 😀
link to pressandjournal.co.uk
@Chic McGregor says: 27 March, 2015 at 5:08 pm:
“You lot need to start making babies :)”
At my age, Chick, and having outlived two wives, Chance would be a fine thing.
Frogesque,
As a point of debate,a requirement for a period of residency for eligibility to vote solves that to some extent but it would be a bit messy and contrived,I think.
Anyway,Scots born or elsewhere born,I don’t make a distinction.Too many people think its a good idea to let Westminster make the big decisions for us.Thats OUR problem.
No one should be allowed to vote on a referendum for independence unless they have some period of residency in the country in which the referendum is being held ( one/two/three years?) as they have not invested adequately in that country.
We shouldn’t expect the over 60’s/70’s vote to soften towards independence as there will be a significant portion of rUK residents who have come to Scotland in those age groups. A great place to retire too, but not good enough for it’s own independence.
You can expect the UK Government, Armed Forces and the many pro UK businesses to encourage staff to relocate to Scotland. I’m sure the process has begun.
The groups in the latter two paragraphs will always make it difficult for us to achieve independence, hence the one solution I suggest in Paragraph one. I’m sure there are others.
David Wardrope says:
27 March, 2015 at 2:45 pm
“I think we might be getting a little hung up on the Vow effect. It, ultimately, is neither here nor there”
I don’t think so – surveys like this could be their justification in a few months to water down the proposals even more. Some political head on QT will probably justify it by saying “Well surveys have shown only 3.4% of voters wanted extra powers anyway.”
Any EU citizen can vote in a European Election (for MEP’s) anywhere,
as long as they are registered to vote in that country.
Foreign nationals in Germany don’t get to vote in German National elections.
(But then Germans are foreigners, so they don’t know very much.)
To give a vote on Independence to a foreign national
upon residence qualifications of one year –
I can’t imagine any other European country doing that.
One year residence for a vote on such a huge issue as Independence –
after 307 years – is to treat Scotland’s Independence
and it’s status as a Nation and a Country
almost as something flippant and inconsequential.
What is missing are the elements of ‘assured permanence’, and ‘settled will’ on the part of the foreign national voter.
Should have been 10 years residency minimum, with intent to stay.
The more I think of it, the more persuaded I am that the one year rule was a bad mistake.
To suggest such a thing in Germany for example,
would set the whole country laughing,
all 80 million of them.
I did the quiz and it said correctly that I am Scottish. However it did state that I was from the east coast.
Oh the shame the humility I will never live it down.
Thats it. A double mars bar supper with salt and VINEGAR for tea tonight!
K1-probably true about that survey. Just to say it was my view when the referendum was first announced. Just think every scot that could prove they were born here even the migrants should have only been allowed to vote. Controversial. But you are talking about our nationhood.
Joemcg
I think the ones that are really being cheated are the 16/17 year olds who got to vote in the IRef but are barred from voting in the GE.
This needs to change!
When the sample was broken down by where people were originally from, it found most (52.7 per cent) of those born in Scotland voted for independence. That contrasted with voters born elsewhere in the UK of whom 72.1 per cent voted No. Most of those born outside the UK voted No (57.1 per cent).
If those figures are correct then 369,500 people born in rUK voted no
As compared with over 1,700,000 of those born and living in Scotland, who also voted no.
It seems to me that this divide and rule stuff is useless. Many people did not agree with independence, and that is a shame, but we must face it
Caledonius says:
@ LA
20% huh? Exactly what some of the more generous polls have been showing. Who would have thought! We can do this… Just 40 more days!
I totally agree Caledonius.
The polls have been rock solid ever since September last year. Any movement at all has been in one direction. NO NO NO I do not mean that non entity of a collection of wee boys that screech their way through a *ahem* song!, I mean the polls have only ever moved UP.
Everything since September has, in my view, shown that Labour are stuffed. Nothing has ever happened to change this overall view. No matter what set of polling results you use they only ever show one thing … the S.N.P. WILL be heading to London with anything between 35 and 59 M.P.’s.
We all know what we want and we are all doing what we can to ensure the figure is nearer the 59 figure than the 35 figure. I can not wait till May 7th and the results programmes start. I just hope they have tons of tissue boxes available on the night. There are going to be loads of EX Labourites bemoaning the fact that they are all no longer able to sup from the trough that used to be their pocket money trough. 😀
manandboy
To me it is a matter of principle that those who live here and intend to stay should have a vote: it is their future too.
I am distinctly unhappy with any arbitrary attribution of foreign nationality to those who were born in rUK, because legally and factually that is not true. And it is exactly the same as the argument for excluding Scottish votes as equal at Westminster now.
Before the referendum those born in the UK had equal status: and that has not changed. Disenfranchising people on arbitrary grounds doesn’t go anywhere good. Not then and not now
@ Lesley Anne 4.38 Ah leave the house fur 5 mins an your sujected tae Chinese Rubs Noo who did’d that tae you I get John King tae sort then oot wie the Twase he,ll leave big welds oan them lol.
@Thepnr same here Pal they only made us bigger an stronger,& now they will feel the pain on 7th May.
Well done Lorna Craig for your piece on Stv news.
@ LA
Hehe, I’m also looking forward to the results shows, popcorn and irn bru at the ready (or perhaps coffee so I can endure the whole night).
Labour lostto YES in their heartlands – what did they think would happen. Now add those No voters who maybe didn’t want independance but do want Devo Max joining in the SNP vote and you begin to understand why these 20% figures are arriving from.
Heck, I’ve been reading of encouraging SNP canvasses in Fife and North Lanarkshire. Scottish politics has shifted, I can no longer doubt that, and I couldn’t be happier.
@Fiona says: 27 March, 2015 at 5:10 pm:
“The people who live here are the Scots.”
Only some who live here are Scots, Fiona. However, they are all, “The People of Scotland”, and that term is defined as : –
“Anyone, of any colour, creed or country of origin, mainly resident in Scotland and who is registered to vote in Scottish elections”.
I had a very nice family at my door last week. They had distinct polish accents. The reason they were at my door was to post the local SNP Constituency broadsheet through my letter box. I’d bet a pound to a pinch of s … Err! snuff! that the whole family were now very staunch Scots.
Some years ago my late wife and I were wandering up the Royal Mile during the festival. We stopped to admire some rather nice oil paintings in a shop window. As we stood there the proprietor came out and spoke with us. He wore full Sikh dress. Except his turban and sash were tartan.
I asked how long he had been in Scotland – he said all his life and his family had lived here for nearly 200 years.
I kid you not : –
link to google.co.uk
I’ve always felt a majority of ‘Scots’ voted yes. Just, there wasn’t enough of us.
25% RUK citizen in Scotland voting Yes is not bad numbers. We can certainly work on it for the next referendum, but we can’t really complain about them. They were always going to feel a loyality towards the UK. We ourselves, the Scots born and bred, voted yes, but just not enough of us did.
There’s lots to be encouraged about these numbers from this survey.
*16-50 all had yes majorities.
*Catholic, other religion, atheists – miniority religions plus the growing number of non-religious people mostly voted Yes. This shows our movement is progressive, welcoming and attracting ‘new’ Scots.
There is no way we will be able to stop RUK or even Commonwealth citizens voting in the next one, but I do think we should look at a time-frame for people being allowed to vote in these matters.
Some of the most progressive countries from the Nordics – do not allowed foreigners to vote in their parliamentary elections or referendums, yet if you’re a foreigner in say Iceland you will be able to vote in the council elections.
To sum it al up ;
I find it quiet sad that the ones who would have more than likely build the country up from the top to bottom, the poorest, oor bairns all voted strongly yes. Whilst the baby boomers, OAPs, wealthy,settlers all voted for what they know.
I have no problem with British nationalists voting No – I’m a Scottish one, and if that’s your belief, then fair dues, I hae no time for the “Yon Alikkkk Sammminnnn”, “Too wee”, “Och, it’s great idea, but winnae work” types.
Keep your heads up, folks.
We have so much to be positive about. The age of voters and how they placed their vote is enough for Unionists to be extremely worried at.
IMO, at the very most, we’ll be back in those booths in 10 years. I reckon it’ll be a shorter time though.
I stand corrected Robert Peffers, and I thank you for your usual precision. I hope that people got the gist of what I was saying, despite my sloppiness
A lot of poison and bile dripping out of the Daily Record today, just had a scan of it at the supermarket. Page after page of Scottophobic bile, and an article by Alex Massie calling us a nation of numpties. I’m really starting to lose it.
The Yes vote was 191,969 short of the winning line.
Or a swing required of 4.48% i.e less than 1 in 20.
@ Robert Peffers 5.54 You jist wire in there Robert ,I,ll supply ah bottle of Malt & Chips,thats the Viniger Malt lol.
@cactus
here is a topic !
The National Covenant in the early 50’s in Scotland…
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Why did 2 million Scots sign the covenant for Home Rule so soon after the end of WW2 when we are told this was the high point for Great Britain when we all stood together through the war years?
And why did Home Rule not happen?
Brian Nicholson says:
““According to the media I’m a cunning, whinging, drunken, doped scrounger who’s a drain on the English purse.”
So you are a member of the House of Lords then?”
No! I’m an Honourable member of the SNP and they won’t let me in. 🙂
A report on the BBC just now about devolution in the North East of England, the reporter said “Scotland is being promised far greater powers”. According to who? Once again the BBC reporting opinion as fact.
Re Snp Polling, met my sister in law yesterday who does not believe in Independence and was obviously a No voter. She is voting SNP as she likes Nicola.
My No voting cousin recently joined the SNP because he likes John Swinney.
Why do certain people not see past personalities? Both these people have above average intelligence. I have given up trying to analyse it.
O/T 1839 made my first post with new Apple laptop, it has disappeared into the either.
Never ever had this issue with the windows xp laptop I previously used.
@Sunniva says: 27 March, 2015 at 6:21 pm:
“A lot of poison and bile dripping out of the Daily Record today, just had a scan of it at the supermarket. Page after page of Scottophobic bile, and an article by Alex Massie calling us a nation of numpties. I’m really starting to lose it.
So jist the usual edition of the Record then, Sunniva
Once again the BBC reporting opinion as fact.
Just turned off BBC r4 lousy newsquiz satire show, in 5 minutes, terrible gag, Alex Salmond cooking deep fried mars bars in his kitchen for the press and that’s from Fred Macaulay.
Whatever they say about unionjocks at the beeb, they really now how cringe and they’re not funny.
Lenny Henry, good post.
I know exactly the type of people you mean! I have a friend, thankfully he did not vote, but his arguement for voting No was the complete opposite of what any sane/rational person could see of when the 3 Stooges disolved parliament and coming rush north.
His words, or there abouts went like this ;
“Did you not see the way the leaders down south acted? They came up to tell us how much they care for us”
I actually avoided him for about 2 weeks after this. I was so “astonished” at the naivity.
And he runs a team of 5-6 people in a local business.
He ended up not voting. And he’s still a friend, but there isn’t a day once a month that those words still hit me and I think ‘WOW’.
Hahahahaha, I’m an idiot. Sorry, Lenny HARTLEY, not HENRY!
Christ.
@ Fiona
Oh I got your jist, and it’s nice to always see such enlightened views, it bodes well for our movement. In my own case, I have a Canadian mother and she voted yes, my born and bred Scottish grandparents voted No.
In my opinion we really lost it with the OAPs. Now no, I’m not having a go at older generations, what I’m saying is the Yes side failed to make a good case to many of these people, my own grandparents included. These folks have been around a long time, seen a lot, perhaps don’t want too much change in their later years. BBC and print media is the main consumption for many in this category and they put up the wind up these folks, scared them because simply many of the NO voting Oaps believe BBC and co tell the truth.
While we were out in rallies in George square and and totally obliterating the establishment on social media, BBC only needed to broadcast a new poison laced story about Independence every night to this audience that believed every word.
I really hope that even with the good polls SNP And political shift we have, the SNP will try focusing on areas with large older generations, meet these people face to face and show them our cause is not to be feared. As for me, Ill get my grandparents to hate BBC yet lol.
When the cat’s away….
We’ve had all this voting stuff before. Don’t let’s fight over it again!
Maybe we should have jokes….or kitty-cats. 😀
Ok lots of chatter about a survey today about the make up of voters last September, can anyone see linkage in this article, who do you trust?
link to stopwar.org.uk
Folks I reckon we have to have some perspective here. Lots of talk about why we came up short in September. Was it down to the vow. Who really knows?
I’m just thinking back to 2010 when I was out delivering leaflets for the snp (for the first time) and not even thinking a referendum was possible. Our candidate was hammered by someone pretty unknown but who wore a red rosette. It was a similar story across the nation.
I thought jeez, when will people see through this lot. I remember the day after the election watching the smug look on the faces of murphy, etc.
What the referendum was most effective at doing was exposing the underbelly (warts and all) of the establishment. What’s seen can’t be unseen.
Look at us now.
I still think that when the figures of the survey are drilled down the only reason a majority of RUK Scottish residents voted No was that many of them are also in the older age group.
Historic ties to post-war British-ness, resistance to change and being cut off from social media are playing more in to this than ethnicity.
Future over 55s, wherever they come from, will not be so easily influenced by print media and the BBC.
The demographics are showing we just have to be patient and wait. The No vote is not homogenous – a mixture of die-hard labour, die hard Brits and over 65s. It just needs one of these groups to dissipate for us to get over the line in the future.
I understand ‘where’ you are coming from Joe. But wouldn’t that controversial view just play into their hands?
It would justify their ‘ethnic nationalism’ crap. Giving them a bigger stick with some steel spikes on it to really batter the ‘cautious’ Scots with?
In other words I think it would ‘hinder’ our progress and I’m all for finding ways to ‘smooth’ our progress toward independence.
We have to remain inclusive, if we started ‘means testing’ our citizens to the nth degree with this as the explicit agenda, we’d be accused of ‘loading the dice’ and all manner of other nasty connotations would be utilised, just as it was during the campaign.
This to my mind is a very ‘loaded’ subject matter, because what of those English Scots who have been here for either 50 years or 5 days? They are citizens within the context of the UK.
Do we say to their sons and daughters of those who have lived here for decades that their offspring perhaps resident in England, decide to come and live with their parents on day one when they register change of address that they cannot vote on the plebiscite unless they are resident for 2 or 3 years?
What of Scots returning from abroad, do they too have to be resident for extended periods of time before they are allowed to participate in their native country’s referendum?
Or should returning Scots be given a free pass, because they are Scottish?
You see where I am going with this?
The current set up re residency is adequate for the purpose of holding a referendum where the people of Scotland; those who reside here for the purposes of qualifying to register to vote, have a say in voting for or against the proposition.
Otherwise it’s just not fair on all those who don’t happen to have been born here. Talk about alienating yer potential support!
To my mind…we’d be even further behind than we got to if we adopted your controversial ‘residency requirements’.
Well said, Scottie Dog. We must never forget how far we have come.
Timely reminder
O/T (isn’t everything today…..) Murphy exposed on channel four news as one of over 40 MPs who bought a property in London then rented it out after the expenses scandal for profit while pocketing near enough £40,000 in hotel bills in the last two years. Not illegal of course but almost Tory in outlook.
K1-yes, I can see it would get messy reading your post. My original view was compounded by my Russian friend voting no after only being here a short while. We had many arguments over the issue. I was fuming to put it mildly!
@Robert Pfeffers,
Actually Massie was giving pelters to people like Grant Schappes,and the like,by telling them if they force the Scots into a corner and force them to choose between being a Scot or a Brit ,there will only be one winner..
Interestingly enough,he also alluded to the fact that Milliband could still be in number 10 even without having the most M.P’S.courtesy of the SNP.
Angus &Jim property expences scandal london
#c4news
asklair
Many of us have known the truth about Ukraine from the off.
Healthy skepticism is a must these days.:D
Jim Murphy, the Labour party leader in Scotland, owns a property bought with help from the taxpayer just two miles from the Palace of Westminster, which he let out. Over two years from 2012/13 he claimed £39,372 to rent another London flat for himself.
from Ch4
link to channel4.com
Good to see all of us in Wings keep a healthy eye on the news channels while Stu is away….
Link to Smurphy’s nice little earner
link to channel4.com
We got him, get the pamphlets printed.
Kate Higgins is on some steering committee for Home Rule. Lots of different political persuasion. 13 people.
More than an exaggeration to say ‘special adviser’.
Rev Stu is safe. Better than that.
Jim Murphy in expenses scandal, the day gets better. Seriously is he actually expected to win his seat? I saw poll in early march that said SNP was just 1% behind, mind you it may have changed since.
Nae wonder Murphy was glued to that irn-bru crate eh? Greedy Cnut.
You just know the Stu-meister is going to pop up at the SNP Conference this weekend…
Was there not a residential qualification/period before people could vote in the Referendum? Maybe it should have been longer, so only long term residents could vote. Fiscal autonomy/Home Rule would lead on to Independence.
There have been quite a number of O/T posts on this set of pages.
So I will bite the bullet and try to pull this discussion back ON TOPIC!
link to youtube.com
Problem is, there is an SNP MP at it too.
Unless he has a good excuse……..
Do you think Salmond is using brass knuckles on Angus as I type?
@ Lenny Hartley says:
27 March, 2015 at 6:40 pm
O/T 1839 made my first post with new Apple laptop, it has disappeared into the either.
Never ever had this issue with the windows xp laptop I previously used.
It will be recognised by Akismet as a new poster and put into quarantine as though you were so until it is verified by Stu.
@ Lenny
I have a permanent 25minutes wait on all posts.
I too have a Mac and Firefox.
Rev thinks it could be a cookies issue.
Beyond me.
Fiona 9.55am
I do beg your pardon, Fiona, you’re quite right; I had recalled the statistics incorrectly and didn’t check my facts before posting; I should have known better as a Wings reader!
Little wonder murphy and his party are pro-austerity. It’s done him proud.
If anyone is going to the SNP Conference in Glasgow you should be going to Aberdeen as the BBC think it is being held there.
link to bbc.co.uk
Joe, imagine how I felt, my own mither, been here for over 70 years and voting No…we had many arguments over it too…y’see, we aw have our crosses to bear…and bear we must, at times 🙂
Nicola’s Army
Sorry for the lack of a thumbnail..You Tube being buggers
youtu.be/hiuSR8hQf18
Exposed as a person of dubious repute and troughing, just as we have come to expect of the WM elite humiliation beckons! .
Dim Jim indeed and soon to have his career aspirations made even dimmer still. He’ll be toast as far as voter respect is concerned in Scotland!
Surely his profile will collapse to vanishing point and the BBC must let the population know… surely…Jacky…Gary…Kaye???
What a day for the likes of us! 🙂
Hi Jock.
Your url isn’t an active link.
Sorted!
link to youtube.com
Ah rats. I have used this Murphy thing on doorsteps. I told a man only yesterday about it. And it turns out one of ours is up to it too. How do we tell people we are not just another bunch of thieves when our own side scam their expenses too?
Oh its OK. Its allowed under the rules. Like Irn Bru, mass cards for contituents and the wreath you buy to honour our dead. Its OK. Its allowed.
We hae to be holier than them. We are not them. We are different to them. What bit is hard to grasp?
Ken 500 at 7.31
Fiscal Autonomy/home rule would put independence back a couple of decades at least if not actually kill the desire off.
I am not in this for anything other than sovereign independence.
The minute we accept either they come off the table anyway and are replaced with offers of half of it.
The only reason we are shouting about stuff like that is to expose the worthlessness of the promises we were made.
Every element of devolution that is conceded to us makes a unitary state less manageable and our wise opponents (if any such exist)will eventually realise that the only logical and efficient states are no Scottish Parliament or a real one.
Most of our people will have realised that before they do.
It is not the people who break the rules who shock: it is what is perfectly allowable under the system they have made for themselves. Twas ever thus
There are no saints: if it is allowed people will do it. But there is no need to allow it.
To my way of thinking MP’s should not have expenses: they should have a right to occupy a publicly owned wee flat, for the period of their tenure, furnished by the public to a reasonable standard. They should get travel warrants (or even a permanent non transferable pass) for travelling between their constituency and Westminster. They should buy their food out of their wages, like the rest of us.
For anything else the rules which apply in the civil service (which are tight) should apply to them too.
I do not see anything difficult about this except for the will to do it being lacking
Good to see so many people highlighting (continuing to highlight) the sins of Jim Murphy …
A wee piece I published today, on his bizarre series of comments regarding Scotland, which play into David Cameron’s hands and make life hard for Labour UK.
What IS he up to?
link to commentisntfree.com
@ Natasha
I hope it makes you feel better about your performance, at least. Discrimination is not normally overt: it is subtle and operates at quite a deep level, as you are obviously aware.
I am interested in this demonstration of the care and reflection of public servants, however. It fits with my own experience and it is a good thing. Unfortunately it plays into the hands of neo liberals because, unlike reasonable people, they do not entertain for one moment that they might be wrong or might have contributed to a particular problem in their field. That makes it very easy for them to make a confident assertion and to present the human response, of considering their point, as an admission they are right. You can’t deal with folk like that when they have the MSM behind them. The strategy works again and again
Robert Peffers: “Only some who live here are Scots, Fiona. However, they are all, “The People of Scotland”, and that term is defined as : –“Anyone, of any colour, creed or country of origin, mainly resident in Scotland and who is registered to vote in Scottish elections”.
That’s true, but there are any number of carpetbaggers and transients, and I, personally, object to that.
I use the phrase ‘the people of Scotland’ a lot, it’s a good catch-all phrase. It also protects those who have made Scotland their home.
But it covers a multitude of sins when it comes to voting rights that can undermine a country’s sovereignty.
The point of course is that BtP is right. We should have leaflets out all over East Renfrewshire to expose Murphy for this in the towns which are voting for a working boy from Arden.
If enough people have their perception altered then the seat could go SNP as a delightful side effect to watching his disappointed face on election night.
@ davidb
Problem for labour is that the Jack Straw scandal wasn’t all that long ago. Murphy also would wish to be the First Minister of Scotland, and this makes him seem evermore unworthy of that role. You also have his constituents not knowing if he will only serve a year and they may wonder if he’s only in that one year for the gravy train.
As for the SNP, I would hope try to express public disappointment in their man, and make vows not to have any GE 15 new MPs indulge in Westminster greed as he did. We’re ment to be fighting this system not being corrupted by it.
Bugger (Panda) @ 7:22
Been waiting patiently for this. Yes, somebody got the fcucker. Hope twitter goes full scale ape shit.
Grussdich
Dug
SNP MP caught up in this expenses carry on,as exposed on CH4.He is just as bad as Murphy,this will damage the GE campaign.F**kin ragin.
James Forrest @ 8.27pm
Stopped at ‘rarely rattles under pressure’
Ha ha, when out of the scripted comfort zone he flaps like a fcucking demented budgie!
topinfopost.com/2013/04/28/uk-man-wins-court-case-against-bbc-for-911-cover-up
OhAh the mighty BBC.
O/T from me (again … I know)
Dr Philippa Whitford’s fundraiser has two days left. It now has a stretch target that is quite challenging.
I know she’ll appreciate any and all contributions.
Please help if you can.
Thanks
link to crowdfunder.co.uk
Ronnie, I think this might be a working link for you
link to topinfopost.com
The SNP has to change the rules of Westminster and a good starting point is expenses( initially the should issue their own guide lines to SNP MP’s). They should remove the party whip from anyone who has abused expenses. End of. It’s not enough to express public disappointment.
If we criticise Murphy and an SNP MP has done the same, this is hypocrisy unless the SNP take a different course of action to labour, an expression of disappointment is just not enough to allow us to take the moral highground with Murphy.
Please let’s be better than the Lib/Lab/Con fraudster rabble.
Sorry if this has already been posted.
link to commentisntfree.com
Old folk are to blame,young folk are to blame, foreign folk are to blame, English folk are to blame, oh wait a minute they are foreign as well
They’re all to blame as are ours as well
But there’s one section of people everybody forgets, (The Numpties) coz that’s what they are and we all know them and they’re the same at any age and they make the same noise so they’re easy to distinguish
It’ goes a bit like “Naw” think of a donkey, or how about
“Yeez ur aw liers” the misspelling was deliberate
What about this one “jeez hink ahm is stchoopit is yoo”
So have a heart for some of us oldies who have been operating computers since they were invented and remember most of the youngsters might be good at pressing “Twitface”
or”Bookhash” but if they’re wee gadgets go wrong they can’t leave the house
some of them could actually starve and die, lose touch with loved ones,be unable to navigate their way to the shops
and if they could, would they not be too lazy to go
Whereas i, as an oldie will survive and i know just where my polling place will be in order to make the journey which will never be too much effort, even if it’s raining
One more thing, it tends to be us oldies who inform the youngsters as well, as sometimes reading whole sentences can prove tiring for our YOOF
Here Endeth the Lesson
God bless you my children
Vince says:
I agree unless Angus Brendan has a valid excuse for charging Hotel bills to taxpayer when he apparently owned a nearby flat then the SNP should deselect him.
He has lost the SNP the moral high ground as anti establishment force.
However Channel Four was below the belt when they made reference to flats owned in Fort William and Glasgow as that is irrelevant to the matter in hand.
Don’t care if it’s SNP, labour or Tory. If you’re caught at the trough, admit it and make reparations or gtf out of town.
This is the danger of Westminster, guilt by association.
Massive Scottish majority of SNP mp’s? I want them recalled and reconvened at holyrood for the good of Scotland.
Am fucking raging too.
channel4 expenses scandal
link to channel4.com
Angus never rented out property,that’s his only saving grace
Waiting for BBC / MSM to report on three sensational Council by election wins for SNP yesterday.
link to snp.org
Re Angus McNeil’s expenses
link to metro.co.uk
link to metro.co.uk
WM property/rent system totaly confusing
@Vince says at 8.51:
The significant difference between Angus McNeil and Jim Murphy is that McNeil made made no personal financial gain whereas Murphy did and was on higher pay scale as Scottish Secretary.
Not that I condone it just putting it into perspective.
link to order-order.com
Friday Night Teaser:
Who had a Top 40 hit with ‘Oh, Murphy’s Up To His Neck In Shite! Again!’
a) The Dubliners
b) The Nipple Erectors
c) Boney-M
d) All of the above
Another Union Dividend
It seems under the new accommodation rules MP’s are not allowed to claim any mortgage interest payments and must use a hotel. The cheapest option would have been to claim mortgage rather than hotels. Some MP’s were trapped as when the new system was brought it at the time when the credit crunch bit some properties went into negative equity and there would have lost thousands if the property were sold with no compensation given. Capital payments were not allowed under the old system just the interest payment. Some let their flats to pay for the mortgage interest to cover the expenses as the MP could not claim for the property despite the fact that paying mortgage interest rather than forcing them to use hotels would be far cheaper than the new rules. I suppose Angus McNeil could fling out the tenant he has who is covering the mortgage payments. He has been trying to get the new rule changed to enable the cheaper option to be adopted.
See this twitter account;
link to twitter.com
I think some people do see a different side of the expenses thing from me. The Metro story shows that Angus was discouraged from low claims by IPSA. In that regard he is just following the convention and it is the convention that is well dodgy. It’s then up to the SNP to either discipline him if there is something not quite right or back up his point about the system.
Jim on the other hand is the leader trying to hold together the Labour troughers while being caught doing the very thing that Labour have a lot of form for. The timing is just perfect to remind those in his constituency just how much of a chancer not only he but his party are.
He’s the man they put up there to defend their record and outline their plans, the first of which is to hook his carriage to the gravy train.
My hope is that his constituents might just decide that with this and the first minister thing enough is enough and dump him in their droves.
Correct to my last post- Angus does not rent out I had assumed he rented out to cover his mortgage. See Sinky above.
McNeil should pay the money back. Then SNP make clear party rules. But it could also be the end of Westminster for McNeil, this looks bad.
Regards Angus Macneil please read
link to metro.co.uk
Jock Scot
Got that song burlin round my head , canny shut it off 🙂
Brilliant stuff and cracking pictures too.
Canny stop smiling either. Thumbs up from me.
🙂 🙂 🙂
T roz.
I disagree with you there as he cannot pay back the amount he was claiming correctly under the new accommodation rules. He has been trying for a few years to get the Allowance system to revert to cheaper claims of interest only on a mortgage which can be four time cheaper that staying in a hotel and that would be better for the taxpayer.
The article above link to metro.co.uk
seems to show how stupid the MP’s expenses system is. Pity there was not a Yes vote so we could not have said good riddance to it.
I fail to see what Angus Brendan having two properties in Scotland has to do with this. I know lots of people with two properties.They use their wages to buy them as an investment. It’s a lot better than saving in the banks. And it appears there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for him using hotels in London. The figure quoted works out at about £280 per week or less over three years which is pretty low for London hotels.
I do wish some folk wouldn’t jump in without looking at the full facts.
Is this CH4 story really ‘news’?
If so, does that mean we have to make new posters with updated figures for Murphy’s ‘expenses’ and/or net income?
Has anyone ever calculated how much that guy actually rakes in? Expenses is one thing (or 197,000 things as the case may be) but income is another. What does Longface actually take home? You have to wonder if he even knows himself.
(Betcha he didn’t tell McTernan about this wee earner on the side, eh?)
There seems to be some confusion over this current housing expense thang.
When Angus MacNeil got elected to Westminster he needed somewhere to live.At the time,you could either buy or rent or stay in a hotel,claiming the cost as an expense.Mr MacNeil chose to buy.Some time later Westminster changed the rules and stopped helping with the mortgage payments,so he stays in a hotel instead.Theres nothing wrong with what he’s done.The government DID NOT buy his flat.They simply helped him with the mortgage payments for a while before they changed the rules and said he could no longer claim mortgage payments.Thats the way I understand it anyway.
Of course,the option to get help with mortgage payments rather than rent should never have been available in the first place,but that’s not his fault.He simply picked the most suitable option to suit his circumstances.
Yep the old expenses trilogy rages on.
As previous posters have said, i don’t care who it is, who they represent or what they stand for — if you are caught with your hand in the till — you suffer the consequences.
We are all quick to point the finger here, there and everywhere and quite rightly so — but are we really aware of what surrounds us or are in our midst. Has anyone recently checked IPSA and compared expenses rather than just look at our counterparts — you might get a surprise. Glass houses etc etc.
We can certainly do without bad publicity at this time, the meida Beeb etc will no doubt be all over it like a cheap suit. We have always stood the high moral ground but unfortunately it only takes one rouge element to undo the good work.
Lets hope that there is an acceptable reason for this, if not lets hope Nicola makes an example.
As someone earlier said “I am F””king raging” — well me too
.
This excellent and potentially very useful link was provided by patronsaintofcats over on Twitter. Hope I’ve copied it over okay…
metro.co.uk/2010/08/22/mp-told-to-claim-six-times-as-much-487520/ …
@Mealer
You are right, note however that you couldn’t claim the “mortgage payment” only the interest on the mortgage payment.
It is the expenses system that is wrong. Far better a fixed allowance for people living a certain distance from Westminster. We used to call it “dig money” and ir was a set amount, if you chose to live under a park bench then it covered your beer money too. Storm in an egg cup.
I don’t want to advertise the Daily Record website, BUT you have to read THIS!!!!!!!!!
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Apparently the majority of Scots did vote for Independence after all.
Stephen.
@onelessday
How do you get rid of that bloody H Potter advert?
With regard to the ‘it was the foreign-born voters wot lost it for us’ argument, can I just point out that I was born in Africa, brought up in England from the age of 7, first moved to Scotland when I was 22 and have lived most of the rest of my life here since then.
I had to persuade my Glasgow born husband to vote Yes (!!) and all but two of my Scottish born and bred colleagues voted No. Don’t tar us all with the same brush. Dr Jim is right – it was the numpties wot lost it for us.
I have just deleted the angriest comment I have ever written to WOS, and it was all to do with this effing 20-minute delay in comments appearing. I astonished myself by packing more expletives into a single sentence than George Carlin ever managed, and then some…
Rarrr…angry Ian…you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry…rarrr…(necks some Lambrini)…Ian feel sleepy now, like Moodie Gordomonster…
Feck it, I’m away over to O/T to play some Boney-M.
Thepnr 10.23
Correct.I should have been clearer.I agree,too,with the digs money thing.It needs to be really transparent.
bugsbunny says:
Its hardly news, we all knew that the majority of Scots voted YES
Perhaps as some say he didn’t do anything technically wrong, and just having a look over MP expenses rules all I can say is my Goodness, they are complicated.
Sadly however, the BBC / C4 / anti Nationalist press will make hay of this, will make him out to be utterly corrupt. It will take some of the Gloss off the SNPs ‘shiny clean’ campaign. May even lose some votes. Very unfortunate.
@Ali
Angus McNeil tried to fight the anomaly in this system which is either claim for a rented flat or an hotel else be out of pocket as you will get nothing at all.
link to archive.today
Labour isn’t attacking Angus,as Jim is in a bit of a bind
@Ian Brotherhood
It’s WordPress at fault I had and others had issues with Derek Batemans blog for months until something at his end changed. There are different operating systems 32/64 bit and conflicts are bound to arise sadly but inevitably IMO.
MP ‘ordered’ by watchdog to claim higher expenses
In what has been described as a “unique case”, Angus MacNeil – who was the lowest-claiming backbench MP in Scotland last year – has been told he can no longer charge taxpayers £252.54 per month for his two-bedroom London flat.
Instead he must claim more – up to £1450 per month, nearly six times the current figure.
Ignore that trash from the Daily Reject. These vile pr1cks are only trying to promote ethnic division inside Scotland so they can then plaster it over the front page as evidence that the Indy movement is anti-English..
re voters not born in Scotland – its never clear cut is it. You could be born elsewhere of Scottish parents or grandparents but only recently arrived here. You could be born elsewhere, have zero Scottish ancestry but have lived here for 60 years and have children and grandchildren born and raised here. You could be English but be your partner is Scottish but a staunch No voter and you follow suit. I wouldnt be quick to judge.
Personally though, I dont think I could move to a country and then vote against its independence, I wouldnt be comfortable with that, it seems like bad manners.
I’m really amazed at the amount of twats on here who were prepared to smear Angus MacNeil on the say so of Channel 4. Have you morons learned nothing? Piss off and join the Unionists – you seem to be gullible enough.
Actually Natasha, I’ve you read the graphs correctly nearly 9 out of 20 Voters who were born outside the UK voted yes, just 2% lower than the official Yes vote. As the vast majority of NO voters come from rUK, (450 000), that’s nearly 1 in 11 of the population and 3 out of 4 of them voted no, it was the rUK voters that made the difference, the outside the uk born voters were equal with the overall yes voters. It was Essex man who made the difference. Saying that, the scared halfwits of all nationalities that voted no at the last kick by Brown didn’t help either.
And Sinky, it is news to me. Because of family ties, I refused to think any different about how this was lost. Same way before PURRGATE I was a monarchist with a small m.
To hell with them all. Long live the Republic of Scotland. P.S. Hope you know who doesn’t kick the bucket before Independence Referendum II.
Lang may your lum reek mam, at least until after Independence, then you can **** off.
Stephen.
P.S. To those born in England/Wales/Northern ireland who voted yes, thank you. You make the Scot’s who voted no, appear for what they are, self serving cowardly backstabbing vermin.
@Caledonius –
Perhaps, with all the overlapping which results from the unpredictable delay in comments appearing, you’ve missed Nana Smith’s post (9.26), and multiple repeats to the same link thereafter?
We have documentary evidence that Angus MacNeil objected to the arrangement he was being forced to use, and voiced those concerns publicly.
Did Jim Murphy ever express similar concerns?
Dave McEwan Hill says:
27 March, 2015 at 8:20 pm
Fiscal Autonomy/home rule would put independence back a couple of decades at least if not actually kill the desire off.
I am not in this for anything other than sovereign independence.
The minute we accept either they come off the table anyway and are replaced with offers of half of it.
The only reason we are shouting about stuff like that is to expose the worthlessness of the promises we were made.
Every element of devolution that is conceded to us makes a unitary state less manageable..
————–
I don’t agree with an ‘all-or-nothing’ approach.
If we don’t get Dev-Max soon, we may never get it.
All the polls on the referendum, show it was mostly fear about the economy that stopped people voting yes.
If we have a second referendum, with no changes, it will be the same battle all over again.
Project Fear 2.
Scotland needs to demonstrate it can pay its way, instead of people just taking it on trust.
That might involve taking a hit at times of low oil prices, but long term it will be worth it.
And if the Barnett formula is phased out, then it would likely be done gradually.
If we hold the balance of power, then everything is negotiable, and we may never have a better chance of getting significant devolution.
The Labour party realizes they might be out of office for the next decade, if they don’t get in this time around.
@Jim Duthie
Concur.
Onwards
Scotland needs to demonstrate it can pay its way, instead of people just taking it on trust.
That might involve taking a hit at times of low oil prices, but long term it will be worth it.
Have you paid any attention at all to the masses of evidence demonstrated on this website by the Rev and many commenters which show that Scotland does indeed pay its way? There is no need to take it on trust. And if you haven’t worked out by now that oil is a red herring, you haven’t been listening. (Just like most of my infant class).
@ Ian Brotherhood
I did, as I say I know he didn’t do anything technically wrong, but his opponents will spin it that way.
Truth is rare in the media. Case in point: barnett formula.We all know how it works. Last night I watched everyone on QT get it wrong, and imply we Scots are greedy selfish bastards. Some in the audience clapped to this. They will believe lies. This week has seen so much anti Scottish propaganda, this is just something else to add to it.
But just so I’m not accused of being a Unionist, let be perfectly clear – I have looked at Nana’s link and I agree Angus has done nothing wrong.
I shall endeavour to be more clear in future.
Wingers please note some of the posters comments TROLLS ALERT.
@ronnie Anderson
Yes sir, sorry sir, I’ll rein in the Rottweiler. Don’t set Big Ears on me.
@ Natasha
I think that is a little unfair.
There are a great many who voted no who do not know that Scotland pays its way: some don’t want to know, but many really do not know because they are relentlessly told we are too poor etc and they have nothing to counter it with. Not everyone comes to read wings: and most of us do not understand economics anyway, and that is no accident.
It seems to me that they thought the same about Scotland’s competence to govern, before the SNP won the right to demonstrate it in practice. Once they did they got far more support, and far greater trust than they have ever had on that issue
Who is to say that we will not see the same process with devo max? I think we would
Onwards at 11.06
No.
You are wrong.
We will only get further devolution conceded by moving strongly for independence. If we go for more devolution we’ll get something less negotiated
We had all this daft talk in the 70s with some folk saying we should go for a variety of forms of devolution. Thankfully the party was wiser and we kept up the demand for independence which is why we now have a Scottish Parliament.
Had we settled for a devolved Scottish Parliament we would have been offered something like a strengthened Scottish Office instead.
That’s the way politics work.
And we have no need whatsover at this point to lower our aim. Anybody who says so is either naive or not on our side.
But this is a General Election for Westminster, not a referendum or a vote for a Scottish Parliament, so we are playing it a little sotto voce on the constitutional issue to maximise our vote. If we wipe out the Labour Party we remove their media credibility ans hugely increase our access to it.
@Natasha.
I think what Onwards is trying to say is that the Yes side know that Scotland can pay it’s way, but it needs demonstrated to the No voters who are currently scared of voting Yes, due to economic fears (a large percentage) that it can in fact pay its way therefore making them more inclined to vote Yes in future.
Natasha 11.27,
Maybe a wee bit harsh there.The Scottish Parliament,especially since 2007,has shown it can make a reasonable job of handling the meagre powers it has.This gave voters a bit of confidence when it came to the referendum.Showing it could make a decent job of handling the much greater powers of Full Fiscal Autonomy would further increase that confidence,maybe enough to win Indyref2.I think that’s what Onward is getting at and it seems to be a reasonable position.
Since we’re in an R-n-R period for the Rev and there’s time to post info, would someone like to take a stab at the prosperity and sustainability of an independent Scotland, if oil income is not a factor.
There is of course the barrel price, which is used by all researchers, but the ancillary support and income that this industry generates would also need to be excluded. As in, take Aberdeen off the income map if it’s oil related income.
I know Gordon McIntyre-Kemp of Business for Scotland has raised this before, but can we have it writ large again here on WOS?
This question has been put to me several times by now, indy-leaning NO-ists, such as how could we survive with the volatility of oil prices – my retort being – we’ve never needed the oil to survive – but it’s just not cutting it with them. So any hard facts please?
@Glamaig
“re voters not born in Scotland – its never clear cut is it.”
I totally agree and also believe that the decision made by the SG was the right one. Everyone with their abode here has a vote. Good, democracy at work.
“I dont think I could move to a country and then vote against its independence, I wouldnt be comfortable with that,”
However I disagree with your later statement. I understand that you may be uncomfortable about voting against Independence, However. others in the same situation may have been uncomfortable at voting for Independence.
I’ll give you an example, a colleague originally born in a still to this day British protectorate told me he wouldn’t vote in the referendum.
He has lived in Scotland for more than 40 years, I asked “why not” he told me he felt “it was not for him to choose”. I very much respected what he was saying but told him straight. Everyone who is a resident in Scotland has a right to vote in this referendum and decide the outcome. No matter whether you decide to vote Yes or No, my view is you should vote.
At the end of the day, no one, “foreigner” or otherwise let us down, we fought a great campaign that took us from 25-30% to 45% in just two years.
The truth is we did not get over the line because WE those Yes supporters that were active failed to get the truth out to ALL our people.
Using the media as they did the UK stole our Independence. Next time will be different.
@Caledonius –
‘I shall endeavour to be more clear in future.’
Fair enough. (No-one said you weren’t being ‘clear’, so far as I can see, but, hey-ho…we’re all for ever-more transparent transparency, eh?!)
Incidentally, do you happen to have any examples of Jim Murphy publicly distancing himself from potentially compromising expenses-related issues in the way that Angus MacNeil did?
Just asking…
@Dave McEwan @11.51
Ye Gods Dave we’re in agreement. If the farce of the Smith Commission hasn’t proved your point I don’t know what will.
We never compromise our aim.
Onwards,
Ecks gradualist ‘competent, agreeable managers’ approach got us to within touching distance. The mandate came too soon !
What chance a fundamentalist line would have got us this far ?
Led by who ?
Now ? When it was so close, near the end of the referendum campaign, you could almost taste it in the air.
From the moment of it’s inception, Holyrood was always going to house an Independent Scottish parliament. Eventually.
A one way street remember.
No only gets to lose once 😉
The problem is real, Barontorc. There is no way to tackle the future prosperity of an independent Scotland with any certainty, because the whole point of independence is that many, many things would change. Ms Sturgeon has shown that there are alternatives to austerity, and her proposals have been deemed sustainable and feasible by even the IFS: but it is drop in the ocean of what is possible if one takes a wholly different view of the debt/deficit and what the proper response to that should be.
All of these debates are conducted on the basis that most things would stay the same: and they might if that is what Scotland chooses. But I fervently hope we would not
Ask yourself a hypothetical. Would the UK be in the debt situation it finds so worrying now if they had not abandoned Keynesian economics in the 1980’s? How would the society look today?
What would house prices be like if the neoliberal determination to sell council houses had not succeeded? What effect would that have had on the prosperity and security of most of the people?
That is the kind of question you have to ask:it is not just about the current situation but about very profound impacts from a complete rejection of TINA
@ Natasha Any mair of your nonsence and you,ll be up in front of the heidy on Monday morning.
Just watch out for the Trolls ,trying to cause trouble.I,ve picked out at least 2 possible 3,just be aware my friends.
I will bid you goodnite Natasha be good,catch you,s awe the morra.
O/T
Time to get the flags up now, folks.
As the nawbags have politicised the flags by ramming Union Jacks down our throats we don’t need to put up SNP flags. Saltires will do. They now make a political statement which everybody understands
BTW
Came up with a good idea for a wee fundraiser. We’re are doing a a Number of SNP Seats Won Lucky Dip. Tickets numbered from 0 to 59 are in the box. We debated how much a shot £1? £2? £5? £10? £20? and settled for £2 per ticket – £50 to the lucky winner. How we laughed when the chairman drew 1. Fecking hope not! I’ll settle for 55 (but I drew 15).
Mealer
But you won’t get Full Fiscal Autonomy. No chance whatsoever. That’s the point. But they’ll allow you to argue about it for years. That’s the game.
Devolution they give you (wrapped up in convoluted obfuscation). Independence you take
Barontorc @ 12.02am
I think Business for Scotland has the data you are looking for. I will try and post the link here, but it may not work (and I may end up being killed by the Rev if I do it wrong, so I hope you are suitably grateful!) Apologies if you are already aware of this.
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Fiona
Who is TINA and why does she spell her name in capitals? 😉
Can’t believe some of the comments on here re. Angus Macneil – either trolling or stupidity. He is a victim of an expenses system which he has been campaigning to change.
Disgusted by Channel 4 mentioning his flats in Glasgow and Fort William – totally irrelevant. Also quite surprised as I thought their referendum coverage was pretty fair, unlike the rest.
5 live radio
Jeremy Hayes former Conservative politician, the MP for Harlow in Essex
calls Salmond SNP slimey,denies Scotland is a country
@Dave McEwan Hill
I am sure you will understand when we all hope you lose.
@ Ian Brotherhood
Of course I don’t have examples, labour are filled with some of the most lazy, greedy, nasty, ignorant, self important, corrupt, oblivious people we could ever hope to find in one grouping. I’ll go obi wan and say of the branch office ‘a hive of scum and villainy’.
And for my previous post…
Let me offer you my humble apology, I got too defensive for no good reason. That isn’t me, I guess I’ve not been having the best day offline and its came through here. Again I’m sorry.
“Nawbags” lol!
Barontorc at 12.02
Turn it around.
A guy said to me last year “But what would we do when the oil revenues run out?”
I said “Oh dear. We’d have to pay taxes then”
So he said ” But I already pay taxes”
I said “Of course you do. Exactly the same taxes as the rest of the UK and those taxes provide the funding for all our services”
I was able to point out that he paid the chancellor over 50p every time he bought a can of lager (or a pint), or 10p every mile he drove, or £8 on every bottle of whisky or voddy, and about six quid on a packet of ciggies and income tax on his wages and NIC, and VAT on most of the stuff he purchased,and council tax and so on so that around half his income actually went on tax one way or the other and that that was enough to sustain the country.
It was also fairly easy to point out to him that 100% of oil revenue at $60 dollars a barrel is a lot more that 8.5% of it at $100 dollars a barrel so the oil argument is a red herring
£2 Better off per week or £2 worse or break even
what to do what to do
Well, it’s really irrelevant though isn’t it
Because everybody bases it on Uk numbers which could not apply, we would be starting again, there is no way to gauge an accurate number so what’s the point in trying
Do you want self determination or don’t you
Do you want your own country or don’t you
I’ve never seen a point in trying to convince someone my figures are better than theirs
“You’re lying” they’ll say and you’ll continue to offend them the more you insist, so desist, it’s an argument that can’t be won, because you’re a liar remember
The SNP are doing it the right way now, show them up for what they are, lying robbing Bastirts who’ve been living off our backs for years
Let our country see for themselves what kind of child molesting money grabbing BBC cover up artists we know them to be, that’ll sicken the NO voters before very long
The Daily Record won’t be calling out another VOW then
“Scotland Demands Independence”…..they’ll trumpet
After all they are the Peoples Champion
Faux outrage satisfied all round….. The Record redeemed
And wee cheeky Eck smiles and Nicola gives a wee giggle
What Dave McEwan Hill said.
@Natasha says: 27 March, 2015 at 11:27 pm:
“Have you paid any attention at all to the masses of evidence demonstrated on this website by the Rev and many commenters which show that Scotland does indeed pay its way? There is no need to take it on trust. And if you haven’t worked out by now that oil is a red herring, you haven’t been listening. (Just like most of my infant class).
Well said Natasha, In fact Scotland more than pays her way and if attention had been paid she always has. The Rev Stu published a chart from the 1900 to 1921 some time ago. It showed the Revenue from Scotland : Expenditure From Scotland: Contribution to Imperial services: % spent in Scotland : % spent outside Scotland: Just as an example in 1917 the revenue from Scotland was £58,600,000 – of which 17% was spent in Scotland and 89% spent outside Scotland and, remember there were no social services back then. Those Imperial services are Civil Services and the armed forces.
We have subsidised the United Kingdom since ever there was a United Kingdom.
Given there was talk by someone at Westminster, when a yes seemed a possibility, of imposing a transitory phase rather than sticking to the schedule set by the SNP wouldn’t Devo Max be a step in that direction? That’s why downplaying any move to more powers than Westminster are willing to give.
As to faith, for some of the 55% who voted No it was obviously not enough. I’d have thought that a failure to learn from a defeat is asking to repeat it?
Baron tore @ 12.02 am
You mention GOrdon M-Kemp @ BFS I’m sure you can pop on to their site and see Ivan McKee videos on financials .
Google him or search on You tube , there are plenty to be viewed . He does a specific one on GERS figures that’s good .
Ian B ,
I’m on iPad here and it’s 20/30 mins for post to arrive , very frustrating if responding to a fellow posting , but on my MAC it’s instant ?
Enjoy yer Boney M , eh put some sparkle in yer toones . LOL.
@Caledonius –
No sweat mister…maybe me being tired and tetchy doesn’t help.
The May 1st gig is in the Counting House, Glasgow. We did it last year (on April 4th) and it was a great night. You are, of course, very welcome – if you can confirm that you (and any friends) will be there, please leave details on the Off-Topic thread, and the splendid BDTT will ensure that you have personalised badges on the night!
Hoots!
@ Ian Brotherhood
Thanks for the details! And thank you for the invite.
Completely off-topic I know, but Stu’s away….
I’m just so happy tonight that the Italian criminal justice system has finally had a long hard look at itself and declared Knox and Sollecito innocent of the murder of Meredith Kercher. They should never even have been charged in the first place let alone convicted, and it’s been a seven-year nightmare for them. I confess I thought the Italian system was so corrupt and self-serving that the convictions would be confirmed, and I’m so pleased to have been wrong.
And this on the very same day as the High Court of Justiciary in Edinburgh kicked the Lockerbie appeal down the road a bit further, yet again. That fight goes on. But events in Italy this evening have cheered me up no end.
This WP system is nuts. I’m not getting the 20-minute delay on this computer, but I just had a post go into moderation with my name and email address all spelled correctly. No clue what trigger word or words might be in it.
Let me try it again. It was nothing important, but still. Stu probably won’t be back on moderation duties for says.
I’m just so happy tonight that the Italian criminal justice system has finally had a long hard look at itself and declared Knox and Sollecito innocent of the murder of Meredith Kercher. They should never even have been charged in the first place let alone convicted, and it’s been a seven-year nightmare for them. I confess I thought the Italian system was so corrupt and self-serving that the convictions would be confirmed, and I’m so pleased to have been wrong.
And this on the very same day as the High Court of Justiciary in Edinburgh kicked the Lockerbie appeal down the road a bit further, yet again. That fight goes on. But events in Italy this evening have cheered me up no end.
Hmmm, that’s interesting.
@Natasha says:
27 March, 2015 at 11:27 pm
Have you paid any attention at all to the masses of evidence demonstrated on this website by the Rev and many commenters which show that Scotland does indeed pay its way? There is no need to take it on trust. And if you haven’t worked out by now that oil is a red herring, you haven’t been listening. (Just like most of my infant class).
——-
Natasha, I am meaning that further devolution would help to demonstrate to No voters that Scotland pays its way.
They obviously DON’T just take it on trust.
There have been 2 major surveys now asking why people voted.
They both show roughly the same figures for the top reasons.
27-29% – loyalty to the UK / British first identity.
65-70% – fear, doubt and risks on the economy.
What is to say the same wouldn’t happen if we had another referendum?
Many Scots are just fearful and cautious.
Maybe that is their nature, or maybe it is to do with the media.
The SNP needs to demonstrate that a more powerful Holyrood can collect taxes and grow the economy, not just spend a block grant.
Each further devolved power is a step closer to becoming a normal independent country – less of a leap to take at the next referendum.
Dr Jim @ 12:36
Davemcean @ 12:02
Spot on
I think the people in Scotland get it,Westminster does’t give a f#%k about us,our children,our welfare,our safety…….it’s all about power,they have it,they want to keep it,expand it.
Some people are bit slower to get it,but I feel they are coming around,sound fact based arguments, always outweigh any other form of discussion,good work,telling it as it is.
We granted Westminster temporary privileges (300 yrs ?), to have the power over us,they have abused those privileges on many levels.
Enough is Enough
Onwards makes a really important point there.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
27 March, 2015 at 11:51 pm
You are wrong.
We will only get further devolution conceded by moving strongly for independence. If we go for more devolution we’ll get something less negotiated
———-
Listen, I want independence.
And I also think all sorts of hidden income would be revealed once we had it.
I just think getting there after significant devolution is more likely.
For the UK election, IF the SNP is lucky enough to hold the balance of power, we will be in a strong position to negotiate more devolved powers as the next step.
We won’t get everything, but we will get far more than the Smith Commission.
There is a danger of overplaying your hand.
What if the SNP says – OK, we demand a second referendum and scrap Trident.
The unionist parties would say the SNP is ‘playing havoc with Britain’s security’, could go for a re-vote, and we could end up with nothing in the end.
But propose something reasonable, and Labour will have to cave in and do a deal. After all, Gordon Brown proposed radical home rule (although he didn’t really mean it.)
A 2nd independence referendum can come from another Holyrood mandate, where we would be in a better position.
@ ronnie anderson
If your remark at 11.43pm is referring to me as a Troll, then no, I’m really not. I’m looking back over my own posts, I realise my mistake was taking Davidb’s remark at 8.17pm as a fact. I’m new-ish (lurked until recently) I just took his word for it, hence my reply at 8.37. I assumed all wingers to be on top of the news and facts. But Nana set things straight with her post.
If you didn’t mean me, then no worries, ignore this. 🙂
Hi folks. This is just a quick update on my Dad’s conditions. I’m sorry for doing this here but I feel close to you people. We were told yesterday that he suffered a heart attack in the night. He’s alive but we’re told the best case scenario is that he’ll be in a totally vegetative state. We’re gutted. My Dad wouldn’t want that and in fact we’ve talked about it in the past. The problem now is that he’s now on 24/7 dialysis and can’t be moved. Flying home to Scotland isn’t an option until he’s off the machine but taking him off it will almost certainly result in a painful death. This is a Catholic country which holds quantity of life above all else. We’re not religious (although we do have faith) and believe quality of life is all important.
I’m getting increasingly desperate here & really need some help. I’m living in a one-room apartment with five Philippinos and I’m going mad. I’m due to fly back to Glasgow on Tuesday and I can’t bare to leave him here. I can’t afford to stay either. I only got here by selling stuff and borrowing money.
Are there any lawyers in the house? Or anyone with any knowledge of options we might have?
This is a nightmare. And we’re so close to achieving Dad’s dream. I’m heart-broken.
I’m sorry to go so far off-topic.
Dave McEwan Hill 12.22,
We have to argue for FFA as was promised to us and as is supported by a big majority of Scots.Let them be the ones to say NO,you’re not getting it.Let them be the ones to say “you’ll take what you are given”.
@ Dr Jim at 12.36
You’ve put into words my feeling better than I can. I agree with every single word. Trying to convince those who don’t want to be convinced is a fruitless effort. Especially when they take nothing you say to be the truth in the first place.
We can only applaud the 1.6 million who did see the truth of the Union on Sept 18th. Wasn’t a win, but huge step forward none the less. As I saw someone remark earlier – you can’t unsee the rotting parasitic form of the Union once you do see all the truth and unpleasant facts about it.
To R-type Grunt@1.52am,
As someone who lost both my parents within three years of each other, (1998 and 2001), and who lost my brother 8 months later, (after my Mum), my heart really goes out to you. All of them ended life on a life support machine.
All I can say is keep strong, and try and get help from wherever/whoever you can. I’m truly, truly sorry about your Dad.
God love you son.
Stephen.
Voting patterns in the 2014 Referendum and the balance of power
“If you hold the balance, then you hold the power” Alex Salmond
Did resident ‘incomers’ hold the balance of power in the Referendum,
and if so, what are the implications for the Sovereignty of Scotland,
and for the Independence Movement”
Furthermore, how does Scotland’s ‘inclusive’ policy sit alongside the fact that no other EU country is as generous in allowing EU and Commonwealth nationals to vote in the referendum.
“ For at present, EU and Commonwealth citizens are able to vote (and stand for election) in Scottish Parliament elections. While EU citizens enjoy a privilege there which is not matched in any other EU Member State (and is not mandated by obligations under EU law).”
link to opendemocracy.net
The most important Referendum statistic is that 52.7% of those born in Scotland voted Yes.
This means that those born elsewhere (incomers) prevented those born and living in Scotland from gaining their Independence.
And, in conclusion, that means the ‘incomers’ held the ‘balance of power’, and with it, they held Scotland’s Independence in their hands.
The implications of this situation could not have been foreseen
by the Scottish Government.
It will be interesting to see how the new members of the SNP
choose to respond to this seemingly suicidal brand of politics.
This is indeed an issue that exercised my mind too. It’s all very well saying many English living in Scotland voted Yes but if 51% of them voted No then where does that leave us? After all, it’s called Scotland for a reason.
I read many people saying that the referendum was a simple Yes/No option but it was actually even simpler than that. You were either for Scotland or you were against Scotland.
It’s a shite state of affairs!
Robert Peffers says @ 5.37pm
“At my age, Chick, and having outlived two wives, Chance would be a fine thing.”
Och I don’t know, I’d be willing to give a shot, It’d probably tak me aw nicht mind ye! 😉
Mibbe Paula Rose could oblige wi a loan of some ropes an pulleys? 🙂
Hope it’s okay to post this link. .
Ghttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11499080/If-Alex-Salmond-ends-up-running-Britain-we-only-have-ourselves-to-blame.html
It was 47% of the electorate who voted NO. (4.2 million electorate). Many voted NO because of all the lies, from unelected civil servants etc. The majority in Scotland want fiscal autonomy. 70%. Independence would follow. Many who voted NO will vote SNP.
Westminster are just perpetual liars, protected by the Official Secrets Act.
Elected to protect NHS/Education. The ConDems cut both in real terms. Promises to cut the deficit, they cut taxes for the wealthiest but sanctioned and starved the vulnerable. Trident/illegal wars (causing migration), tax evasion and banking fraud. Westminster and their associates are taking from the Public purse.
@BJ
This link works
link to archive.today
@R-type Grunt
so sad to hear of the terrible situation you find yourself in. What a dilemma you describe. It sounds as if you have no option but to fly back unless your flight can be resceduled on compassionate grounds.
But there is one thing you can do and that is to pray for your dad that things will work out for the best for him, whatever that may be.
And we can all send you our thoughts that you will find some comfort whatever the outcome.
Be kind to yourself too.
Nae Rubens e day ?
Ach well Chris will have a stonker next week I’m sure.
Mealer at 1.53
Exactly. But this tactic is to expose the empty promise, nothing more.
cynicalHighlander
Thanks, wasn’t sure how to archive
Before you get together to come up with a plan to ensure that the only people who can vote in the next referendum can prove that all four of their grandparents were born in Scotland, I do not have a drop of Scottish blood and voted YES.
However I found myself in a small social group of women, all Scots who all turned out to be all definite NO voters, some with family settled in England and most of the ‘all one family’ with a strong element of ‘it’s all that dreadful man’s vanity plan’.
Don’t assume it was just the fault of the non-Scots.
@Onwards
If you check the Ashcroft research carried out immediately after the referendum, I posted the link earlier in the thread, you will see that only 47% of those who voted NO did so because of fears about economics, EU, defence etc.
That’s less than half. Still a lot of people but not insurmountable I believe especially considering the tsunami of propaganda of Project Fear! It frightened fewer than a million, most of them probably pensioners and the already frightened who can’t access the internet for information.
Scotland raises £54Billion+ in tax revenues. (Official Scittish gov website search GERS)
UK raises £466Billion in tax revenues (Official UK Gov website search ‘statistics’.
The rest of the UK raises £412 (borrows and spends £90Billion more). Scotland could raise more (tax on ‘loss leading’ alcohol) and spend less on Trident/illegal wars.
Even without Oil revenues Scotland raises more tax (pro rata) and spends less, and always has done. Thatcher, secretly took the Oil revenues and damaged the Scottish economy. The ConDems have mismanaged the Oil sector (put up taxes) and lost Scotland £16Billion.
When the ConDems came to power £600Billion was raised in taxes (£120Billion was borrowed). It is now down to £466Billion (£90Billion borrowed).
Scotland raises more (pro rata) than the rest of the UK. Scotland has lost (Oil) revenues because of Westminster mismanagement. Scotland produces and exports.
@ biecs
I agree. The entitlement to vote was residence in Scotland and being registered to vote. I would be opposed to any type of ethnicity test. I know many Scottish born people who voted NO. I don’t agree with their decision but accept that they’re entitled to it. How to persuade them to vote YES though?
R-type,
Have you looked at your da’s medical insurance policy? Some of them cover the cost of someone staying with them.
This poll of who voted what and why is entirely an exercise in divide and rule. Which has always been a key british policy.
Why else would it be published now?
Clearly it seems to be sucessful.
What are the accommodation arrangements of Angus R’, Stewart, Eilidh, Michael and Peter? For me this still looks bad, moaning about the rules is hardly good enough. I hope Nicola is really clear and firm on this.
HEADS UP EVERYONE – a fellow Winger is in TROUBLE and has asked for HELP – see R-type Grunt @ 1.52 am. It would be easy for it to get lost in amongst all the other discussions on here just now!
Hi R-Type – is there a friendly embassy or consulate there that could offer assistance? I think there’s a fair chance they will have come across this type of situation before and may be able to advise on repatriation. Hope someone on here can help you.
Much love to you and your darling Dad – mumsyhugs xxx
Ref Indy Voting .
Pre Sept ’14 .
Any No sites or FB posts I ” Trolled” has No voters spewing crap . Totally miss-informed .
Any attempt to correctly inform them was nearly always met with vile personal attack on me .
In fairness FB posts with people who know me were slightly less aggressive.
I struggled to understand where their blinkered badly informed view had come from .
As for voters not born here . I’m talking about Europeans , rUK , and World wide born folk .
Every person I know of Voted YES , many have since said ” WTF , how can this be ”
They can’t believe the result as they saw voting YES as a No brainer !
My conclusion is that in life we , humans , often sub conciously we decide and then pick the evidence that supports our decision.
Let’s not get to stuck in this rut , we are where we are and despite all the crap from the Establishment and a No , we are in a good place .
Chin up and battle on for GE ’15 .
quite surprised to see so many of you chewing over the referendum report.
choosing only the demographic we want to have vote is a nonstarter, that way lies madness.
we need to look at the reasons those who could be persuaded were, and those who can still be persuaded are in the future. concentrate on the reasons people voted, not just what labels they come with.
but: it’s past and done for now. focus has to be on may.
divide and rule is the purpose of this report. Who asked for it when was it done and who paid for it. Personally I don’t believe a blind bloody word of it.
T.roz
Possting late and up early to continue where you left off.
I smell mountain shite.
R_type grunt,as someone who has been slightly in your shoes, my Mum died in Tenerife and I had to get her back. Fortunately she had insurance,I assume your Dad doesn’t, first speak to the airline and if you have to beg them to reschedule your flight, then speak to the British Consul or Embassy. The last one is a long shot but worth taking. I am sure other’s can give you more advice.
On the new BBC website where have they put Scotland? I have tried putting Scotland into the local search bar but it says it can’t find that location. Have the BBC unilaterally decided we don’t exist? Have they scrapped the Scottish newsroom?
In Switzerland every adult has to take out insurance. The upside is that, if you are taken ill abroad, Swissair will send a helicopter/plane to bring you home. Does UKOK do that? We all pay NI. Could an independent Scotland do that?
Divide and conquer. The ESTABLISHMENT’s main tactic.
Remember we are winning. Do not fall into their trap.
HandandShrimp – I think so too. It is now very difficult to access the Scottish sports page in the site – a definite move to integrate and subsume Scottish sport – the British project at the BBC continues apace.
Of course when I say British I mean English – the British sports page are 98% about England. If Andy Murray had been born in Surrey it would be 100%.
Personally I think Wings should now focus its attacks on the BBC and less on the irrelevant newspapers such as the Record/Guardian as hardly anyone that could be influenced either way reads them.
The BBC is the real threat….
Mixed emotions, I am taking down my YES Saltire today and raising my shiny new plain Saltire.
My reason for lowering the YES Saltire is, I don’t want to frighten the horses. I want to send out a feeling of, Scots against the Westminster Establishment and nothing does it better than seeing the Saltire flying.
The YES Saltire will be folded away and wont be flown again until the people of Scotland decide that we are ready to go for “it” again.
Vote SNP May 7th.
R4 this morning ‘business leaders’ say SNP influence at Westminster would be ‘nightmare’ and will cause ‘spending spree’ which will ‘mostly go to Scotland’.
Here we go again, Project Fear 2 is ramped up, with the added twist of divisive anti Scottishness thrown in for the English voters. Project Fear without the ‘we love you’.
This motivates me even more to get out leafletting.
Easy now B’ t’ panda! We are supposed to try and encourage independence through new readers. A bit of damage was done yesterday, let’s hope Nicola sets things clear.
How is the printing of the leaflets going?
Next door neighbour regards himself as a true Scot born and bred. I get on reasonably well with him. I don’t however share his love of football or the bigoted way he supports his team. He is barely one step away from the OO.
There are no prizes to guessing how he voted in the IRef. To be fair, he did express concerns about his work being relocated in the event of a YES but I felt it was secondary.
We will never reach these folk and they are entitled to their opinion as long as it’s kept peaceful and civil. It’s called democracy.
We have to make our case stronger and clearer and at great risk of being shot, our currency position came over wooly at best. But, heyho, this isn’t IRef #2, it’s GE2015 and there is a target audience that can be convinced through more powers and good governance.
An independent Scotland will be forever and must be built brick by brick, stone by stone on bedrock. Shifting sands and hopeful emotion won’t cut it.
Here endeth the lesson! lol.
@biecs
I’m English-born, of Enlish parents. I’ve spent my whole adult life in Scotland though, and my children and grandchildren are Scots, with a Scots mother. I consider myself as much a Scot as friends who were born here.
Where you see your future is more important than where you see your past.
Any attempt to bring in an ethnic dimension to the franchise is playing right into the hands of the propagandists who seek to equate our movement with the worst excesses of some of the other ‘nationalist’ movements worldwide.
I am sure this report seeks to play on this. Divide and rule is still a top strategy – let’s not get ducked in.
Erm . . .
‘Sucked’ in 🙂
SNP bbc webcast live
link to bbc.co.uk
T.roz
You are
Bugger off.
You will be ignored.
Adieu.
@Barontorc 12.02am
I saved this from before the indyref. Interesting body language Mr Carney
link to youtube.com
@Handandshrimp
I think they have redesigned the website. (Not sure as I dont look often these days!) From the bbc/news page, you have to click on UK to see the link to Scotland. I long for the day when we are on the ‘Europe’ page!
I just looked at the main bbc page its weird, never been there for ages, there are no links to the actual news page unless you click on an actual news item?
As for the Scotland news page it is just dire. I always did look at it and think ‘surely more is happening than this?’ but I think its got worse.
I suppose one danger of concentrating on changing a target audiences minds is you loose track of those who already voted Yes. It’s a bit like the great deals you get for signing up as a new customer.
On the other hand the real question isn’t how big a difference rUK and EU voters had. It’s whether they could have prevented independence if enough Scots had voted for it. The answer is no.
On the face of it there does seem to be a bit of jiggery pokery going on with the results one being published as at the time was this
link to blog.whatscotlandthinks.org
Which has only 49% of those born in Scotland voting yes.
Also worth considering is that without a figure for turnouts of each category we don’t know how many deliberately chose not to vote either way due to not wanting to interfere.
R-type,
Contact his insurers. Any decent policy should cover a family members expenses.
I assume that you have been in contact with british consulate? They are supposed to assist you.
120 Upper McKinley Road, McKinley Hill
Taguig City Manila
1634 Manila
Philippines
Email: ukinthephilippines@fco.gov.uk
Phone: +63 2 858 2200
If they weren’t helpful try the dutch.
They will have good english speakers. Will probably be familiar with the ‘life at all costs’ policy as it is contrary to dutch practice.
Might not be so hot on insurance as it would not affect them much. (Domestic NL cover is worldwide, includes, medical repatriation and family members travel costs and expenses).
Dutch Embassy Manila – Philippines
26th Floor Equitable Bank Tower
8751 Paseo de Roxas, Makati City, Metro Manila
Philippines
phone: (+63) 2-786 6655 (consular section, incl. visa)
email: man@minbuza.nl
ScotsRenewables,I just thought you had a bad cold with your ,” let’s not get ducked in”
Too right about the divide and rule bit – it won’t play well in Scotland though, might have worked had they been dealing with the BNP or EDL but they are dealing with a broad church of the people of Scotland , the massed YES band.
Hey, The [at], [dot]s were put in automatically!
cearc, thanks for that, a glass of cearc fraoich is due ye.
link to new.livestream.com
Starts c10.30am
Am I correct in noticing that the post between “Revealing turn of phrase” and this one has been removed along with all of the comments made on it? If that is the case that is very disturbing development if we are not able to handle constructive criticism from our own supporters never mind the opposition.
Reading over recent posts I am a little puzzled why some people dismiss outright the chance to win more powers on the way to independence. Given that polls show that around 30 per cent of voters in Scotland are against independence because of their strong identification with Britain, it would seem that the remaining section of the No vote could be won over if we had more control over taxation and welfare powers.
ScotsRenewables
Absolutely. The “blood” thing is a pointless dead end road. Lots of us have English, Irish, Welsh (and further afield) relatives. Being Scottish is a state of mind, not some meaningless analysis of hemoglobin.
Wouldn’t get too obsessed with where folk come from. Snp will be proved correct in the long run over austerity. People tend to reject the political establishment that threatens their kids future when they are made aware of what’s going on. That’s why we shouldn’t differentiate people according to their origins.
TeamGB simply cant allow SNP Scotland to exist let alone actual devo max, so week ends with teamGB press pushing stuff like it wasn’t THE VOW that won it, Libby Carrell at rancid Guardian, only true true Scots vote YES, even more rancid Daily Record, a whole C4 Friday 7pm news on SNP expenses fraud and next week its going to be even more of the same vote SLab or else from our chums in the south.
Its been some week for the vote anyone but SNP Scotland or else attack machine, and I cant bring myself to even watch anything BBC vote SLab Scotland.
Red and blue tory UKOK’s mobilised and they are thinking a bit harder too.
It worked 18 Sept, but it wont work May 7.
biecs 7.33ish,
No one is suggesting proof of four grandparents Scottishness is necessary just as no one is suggesting people should be allowed to come up from London on a day trip to vote (yes,I am aware there were instances of exactly that happening).The argument for a stricter qualification to vote is a perfectly reasonable one.It is the norm in many other countries.I amn’t convinced by it in our particular circumstance and nor,obviously,was the SNP leadership.
A couple of hundred jobs to go at Shell UK in Aberdeen. BBC Scotland scramble their “reporters” to head for oil rigs, Aberdeen Harbour, outside the Shell offices in Aberdeen and videos showing redundant oil rigs.
It was total Armageddon.
A couple of hundred jobs to go at Rolls Royce in Scotland.
Where are all the BBC Scotland camera’s and reporters?
Oh that’s right, they are all up in Aberdeen reporting on the death of the oil industry.
And while we are on the subject of bitter, anti-Scottish, establishment’s, did Gordon Brown save the supermarket in Kirkcaldy?
GORDON
Away back under your bridge, rock muncher
@ Caledonius 1.50am
If you didn’t mean me, then no worries, ignore this. :).
Nay worries I never even gave your name any thought,but nice to see my words of wisdom post caused you to reflect on your post.
I do know, as you reffer to Yourself ( fairly newish)that has never been a barrier on Wings we,re awe the same.
BTW the wisdom I reffer’d to is probibly Norman Wisdom.
But beware of TROLLS.
Sorry to interrupt y’all … it was just to apologise for the lack of cartoon this morning. This was supposed to be because I was away but now it’s more to do with the fact we had to come back early ‘cos the house was burgled and ransacked!
Anyhoo – Cairnstoon HQ should be up and running in the next day or so. Normal service will be resumed.
That is all.
Carry on.
R-type grunt
Commiserations. I hope you get sorted out. Does your dad have life insurance? Many policies can pay out early on diagnosis of terminal illness. If your dad has any policies, I would contact the insurance company and see if they can help. If not, as cearc says, the embassy/consulate should help, and as an EU citizen, any EU embassy/consulate will need to help you. Hope this helps.
muttley79 says:
“Reading over recent posts I am a little puzzled why some people dismiss outright the chance to win more powers on the way to independence. ”
In my case, it’s not quite outright dismissal, I just hold the opinion that the Unionists will never deliver anything meaningful. This is based on their record so far. Everyone knows that DevoMax is very popular and could offer a stable situation. Yet Unionists miss opportunity after opportunity and basically deliver various forms of DevoBuggerAll.
The ultimate example being The Vow followed by Homeopathic Smith which will probably never get through WM.
Unionists seem so keen to avoid giving more powers, IMO Lab & Con would actually be willing to gang up post GE to prevent the SNP attempting to get powers.
I think we need to go through the motions of trying to make them keep their word and deliver DevoMax, however I hold out little hope.
Then we know where we stand and everyone in Scotland needs to decide where they stand. DevoStatusQuo or more powers through independence.
SNP conference live now
link to new.livestream.com
Angus MacNeil should resign.
He apparently still owns his flat in Lambeth. Why does he need to claim for Westminster hotel expenses?
The whole idea that an MP gets a free London house, through whatever convoluted means, makes me see red.
The rest of us have to find the 500k – or whatever ridiculous price decent flats are going for this month – out of our normal wages. No wonder MPs like rising house prices, when they get a free one just for showing up.
Even giving them a state-funded dormitory would mean they have a far better standard of living than what I have to put up with in order to work down here.
caz m .. Nope Kirkcaldy Tesco still closing despite efforts of Broon
The only thing tha concerns me about that disection of the Independence vote is
“How did they know what religion, nationality, age etc, voted”
I don’t recall being asked for my religion or age and yet somehow they knew exactly what group I belonged to, I thought my vote was a private thing and something for me to disclose if I so wished (I did, still have my YES sticket on my FB photo).
Did they look at the number on my ballot paper and found out my name and address and then find out all the other information that pubic bodies may have about me.
@Capella and @heedtracker 5:00pm yesterday(ish)
Sorry I didn’t reply sooner, family thing.
You give your experience of the situation, I’m afraid my experience of the fallout was much different from yours where I was and from the people I’m surrounded by. The Vow was just never given as a reason for the no votes by and large. I suppose from my point of view it’s all relative.
Just think that if we manage to get the Vow message out of the way, there will be many other excuses we will have to get through from many people.
Aw man. So sorry to hear that Chris Cairns. 🙁
Thoughts go out to you after a shitty thing like that happening.
@glamaig
You’re right, they have redesigned the BBC News website. The new version just went live on Monday.
For anyone who didn’t see Glamaig’s post, the route to Scottish news is by clicking on “UK” at the top, just below the “News” logo. When the UK page loads, the next line down will include a “Scotland” link, and clicking on that brings up the Scottish page.
The website redesign is actually a cost-cutting move. They’ve basically thrown away the old PC / laptop version of the site and replaced it with an adapted version of the mobile / tablet site.
The idea is that they only have one code base to maintain for the website, so they have less work to do and they can save money on that.
Unfortunately, they’ve also made it harder to reach several subsections of the site that people actually want (like Scottish news).
Even when you do finally get there, the headline pages now contain a lot less information. By my estimate, you only get about half as many headlines, and stories “fall off the bottom” much quicker now.
Finally, the new search function is virtually useless. If you ever need to find an old article on the BBC, save yourself the frustration and go straight to Google.
I am not impressed at all.
Mind you, the BBC have history here. They used to have a text-only version of the News site which was the most accessible source of news for visually-impaired people I have ever seen.
Surprise, surprise, they turned around and made an arbitrary decision to close it one day. No amount of protest made the slightest bit of difference.
The BBC philosophy: shut up and eat your cereal.
@ David Wardrope
Not my experience – Lord Ashcroft research.
Off to watch the Livestream.
Chris
Commiserations. That is a rotten thing to have happen.
Sorry to hear you were burgled Chris, everyone’s worst nightmare. We will await your cartoon as they are always a pleasure, Nae worries.
@Chris Cairns says:
the house was burgled and ransacked!
Horrible news. If there’s anything we can do I’m sure the boys and girls here would be only too willing to help. Just say the word. Maybe a jealous cartoonist with less talent that you has no alibi 🙂
Anyway good luck.
O/T
The “Register to Vote” website, just in case anyone needs it.
link to gov.uk
Sorry to hear that, Chris.
@ ronnie anderson
Sound advice sir! Will do.
There’s a lot of tippy toe stuff going on around this, are you Scottish thing or an incomer thing, should you have the right to vote or not
Well it seems to me when i lived in Spain for around 15years
i wouldn’t have dreamed of involving myself in that country’s
Politics it would have, for me, been the height of bad manners
to vote on affairs there
During my time there i did however notice many x-pats did everything they could to involve themselves in many areas of Spanish life and i tell you truthfully, mostly unwelcomed by the Spanish,and looked on as interference
But the Spanish being who they are managed to keep them out
and still manfully try, and i say to that, well done, because, and here’s my point,( i returned home )so if i had had the temerity to vote on another country’s future i would have had no intention of living with that decision for the rest of my life
How dare, that i should impose it upon them
I merely state this because there seem to be many people who think because they have the right to vote that they absolutely have the moral duty to inform others as to their mistakes by fixing our little backward Nation for us
Well i obviously never lived through the Imperial British Reign of The Raj but i think now that i’ve said it you probably get the point
Which is
I am not bias, bigoted, racist any more than the next person i hope, but one thing i know i wouldn’t do even though my own mother was English, is live in another country
and then attempt to have the outright gall to change it to suit me
Wouldn’t that make me every bit as bad as the British Raj
Who do i think i am, Captain Bloody Cook
So I say to all folk from anywhere, Welcome, live here, i hope you get on great
But don’t just don’t think that means i give you leave to interfere in the constitution of my country
Because i consider that Bad Manners
The SNP conference is being livestreamed NOW!
link to new.livestream.com
@Chris Cairns
Sorry to read this Chris
Huh – they’re now on a break…
ScotsRenewables@9.07,
That is by far the best post on this thread regarding voting rights. We are all in this together or we are finished!
@ David Wardrope, Just think that if we manage to get the Vow message out of the way, there will be many other excuses we will have to get through from many people.
So THE VOW said vote NO Scotland, for devo max, federal UK, permanent Scottish Holyrood parliament in Edinburgh, 7 teamGB months later and its all been reneged by teamGB and you say “put the message out of the way.”
Good luck with whatever you think you’re doing David.
They even lie about their THE VOW delivered lie!
@ Chris Cairns Commiserations Chris i hope you didnt have much mess to clear up, dirty dirty scum.
Edmund Read link
Would folks just like to remember that we all have to check sources of news items and stop jumping the gun.
And if anyone is trying to cause trouble..GTF…
link to t.co
@Capella,
I’ll leave this one alone as can’t see it getting us anywhere, but I will say that we could all cite one academic’s research while rejecting research from other academics (like this week) because they don’t suit our opinion.
Respect to Howard
link to cv.democracyclub.org.uk
galamcennalath:
I hold the opinion that the Unionists will never deliver anything meaningful.
That’s a realistic reading of the history books: continuous prevarication in the face of democratic requests for parity, empty rhetoric from unionist appointees in Scotland led by the Secretary of State, a few wishy-washy powers handed over when the Scots looks set to rebel but actual power retained by London, and then back to business as usual ignoring Scotland for another decade.
Is there no person that Scottish Labour and Jim Murphy will not take advantage of, or crap they will not make up to continue their self serving lifestyle?
wtf is TTIP?
@mumsyhugs
You’re a star!
@Helena Brown
I’ll be calling the Embassy first thing Monday, Thank you.
@cearc
Good idea, I hadn’t thought of that. I’m almost certain the rest of Europe will be more helpful than the Brits.
@Fairliered
Aye, I need to get the people who have been taking my taxes on my side.
For the record – my Dad does have travel insurance but it covers one other. He was on holiday with his wife so she’s the significant other. I’m here because, on the rare occasion my dad had too much too drink he’d always tell me of his biggest regret in life. When his mum was dying he was working in the pits in Doncaster. He jumped on his BSA Gold Star and rode through the night to Peterhead to be at her bedside. He was too late.
Thats why I’m here.
I’m always reminded of the quote, this too shall pass. And it will.
Anyway, you folks get busy. We have a country to save!
And thank you. From the bottom of my heart.
@ R-type Grunt.
Sorry to hear about the awful situation with your dad.
And apologies for not being able to offer you some advice as i don’t have any experience or knowledge of that situation.
I hope you can find a way to, at least, make the situation a little bit more bearable. My thoughts are with you.
@ Chris Cairns.
Bad news about the house.
Lets hope the police get the scum responsible.
I’ve experienced this sort of crime and all i can say is that that feeling you have right now will never leave you, it does get easier to handle and accept it but it will stick with you.
I hope things return to, as near possible, normality soon for you.
Try not letting it get you down and i look forward to the next Cairnstoon instalment. Chin up, Chris, the war rages on.
Dr Jim @ 10.55am
That’s a perspective I hadn’t looked from. I live in Uganda most of the year, and I would not even consider voting in any way, shape or form there – I would feel I was not my place to have a say in their politics – never mind if there was a vote on the country’s future.
That being said, had I been there in 1962, I’d have voted with them for independence 🙂
Re-this nationality argument,could you emigrate to another country and vote on whether another nation gains it’s independence or not without a pang of guilt or conscience? I couldn’t for one.
Chris
I’m very sorry to hear about the burglary. I hope they didn’t take anything personal and that your insurance will cover anything they did take. Please let us know if there anything we can do
R-Type Grunt
I’m sorry to hear about your Dad, drop me a line and I’ll see if there’s anything I can help with
brian7macpherson [at] Hotmail [dot] com
Sorry to hear the sad stories of last night and commiserations to Chris and r type for thier troubles.
The BBC website redesign is a disaster. They seem to have got the job experience kid to do it it’s very basic and it’s almost impossible to read ANY news. I expect it’s a foretaste that they will just publish less and less on the website. I think it will drastically change their traffic as it’s almost unreadable. As a result we missed out on two great stories yesterday just through lack of visibility, the guy with the motability scooter towing a boat in Hartlepool and the guy who forged an email to get himself released from prison elsewehere in England.
Mind you the SNP coverage was just as good as it always is. Grudgingly there’s about three lines that the SNP won all three council by-elections on Thursday by whopping margins, like nothing happened at all.
As always happens when they think Stu is away we have an increase in trolls just to test our patience. They are easy to spot, just like the Daily record’s crude attempt to divide Scots by their Scots born voter story just in time for the marching season. Nice try guys. That was a mighty conventient report that came out to tell us the Vow was not influential without mentioning it broke purdah anywhere. If the Record likes it we know it’s intent.
@mogabee
He shouldn’t have been claiming expenses for accommodation at all. He could have sold the flat or lived in it and paid the mortgage himself.
Yes, the system is rotten but that’s no excuse.
I’ll go ask my employer for a £252 a month accommodation allowance and see how far I get and how HMRC treat it.
This is the one issue where I have zero sympathy for MPs of whatever party. They should try living in London on the same terms as the rest of us are forced to. London house prices are up another 10% this year.
Noticed one of the earlier contributors thought to reference GERS. Here’s a link to the current GERS:
link to gov.scot
Here’s the executive summary:
“Current Budget Balance 2013-14
This is the difference between current revenue and current expenditure (i.e. excluding capital investment). The current budget balance:
Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £13.8 billion (10.3 per cent of GDP).
Including a population share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £13.4 billion (9.8 per cent of GDP).
Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £9.8 billion (6.4 per cent of GDP).
For the UK, was a deficit of £71.5 billion (4.1 per cent of GDP)
Net Fiscal Balance 2013-14
This is the difference between current revenue and total public sector expenditure including capital investment. The net fiscal balance:
Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £16.4 billion (12.2 per cent of GDP).
Including a population share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £16.0 billion (11.7 per cent of GDP).
Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £12.4 billion (8.1 per cent of GDP).
For the UK, was a deficit of 97.3 billion (5.6 per cent of GDP).”
Quite a different story when you include expenditure alongside revenue (you know the E and the R of the acronym).
If I were a yes voter I’d be saying “hang on a minute, didn’t you all tell me that Scotland pays more to the UK than it gets back?” “Ahhh, sorry that was for the figures for the year 2011-2012”.
(of course this is all falling on deaf ears isn’t it? There’s no concept of “Scotland will face economic challenges if it gets FFA”)
Any Wingers with direct contact numbers for there SNP MSPs please send a message to say people on Kevin’s Livestream arent happy that the Livestream will stop as BBC have the Broadcast rights. get texting & Phoneing people Thanks
One day left here – help Philippa give Labour a duffing in what used to be their heartland link to crowdfunder.co.uk
According to an ICM survey not long after the referendum: 75% of 16 and 17 year olds voted, compared with 54% of 18-24 year olds and 72% of 25-34 year olds. The turnout in all three groups is markedly lower than the estimate for 35-54 year olds (85%) and those aged 55 and over (92%)
Maybe we should be more annoyed at those who could not be arsed to get their ass to a polling station and vote on the future of their nation.
I actually think the timing of that Edinburgh Report is an absolute piss take. Just as the SNP are riding 16-20% in the polls and expected to destroy much of labours hold on Scotland, just as SNP membership soars over 100,000 members. Just as the SNP win 3 local election seats with big swings to them. Just as labour blunder from one disaster to another.
And here we are, myself included, dissecting a report on the referendum. Thing is, there’s not much we can do about it now, and yes I agree there are some issues that will have to be addressed in a future referendum. But we are not fighting a referendum currently, we are fighting a General Election due in less than 40 days. A GE Westminster is bricking itself over. Eyes on the prize as they say.
@Dr Jim 10.55am
I have lived in Scotland since 1967. I finished my high school education in Scotland, went to a Scottish university, married a Scot, had Scottish children and now have Scottish grandchildren.
Are you seriously suggesting I have no right to a say in the future of this country? If so then you are giving ammunition to those who accuse us of ‘blood and soil nationalism’
And if I have the right to a say, then who does not? Is 10 years residence enough? 5 years? What you seem to be proposing is the slipperiest of slopes.
What is required is the antithesis of what you are suggesting. We need to reach out to those who are Scots by choice rather than birth, applaud their decision and encourage them to get involved in their adopted country. We need to change the mindset of those ‘incomers’ who voted NO not by excluding them but by including them. The SNP realise this. It seems a shame that you apparently don’t. To me it is on a par with those who suggest Stu has no right to comment on Scottish politics because he lives in Bath.
Colin-simple question, not rocket science, why the complete and utter desperation by the entire British establishment to keep Scotland in the union then?
There’s a good analysis of the GERS figures on Business for Scotland website: link to businessforscotland.co.uk and a rebuttal of Murphy’s anti-FFA stance.
@Chris, must be hard to be entertaining after that. Bests!
Jim Murphy, the face that launched a thousand quips.
anyone else sursrised that there is no info on the BBC Scotland web site re the SNP Conference.
No. Me either..
No link to any streams, no headlines with the word conference in it, no headline on Main page link to archive.today or Politics page link to archive.today. Yeah there’s a pic of Nicola, but that could be any story.
Surprising as there was wall to coverage of Con/Lib/Lab conferences, and left in no doubt that there was a conference on.
Not like the BBC to leave themselves open to accusations of political ineptitude and impartiality deglect. Thought they had an obligation to report equally across the political spectrum.
Oh, well.. just as well I’m on link to new.livestream.com
“Re-this nationality argument,could you emigrate to another country and vote on whether another nation gains it’s independence
I agree. I’d consider it the height of arrogance to live in Spain as an ex-pat and vote against Catalan’s autonomy. Too many thought otherwise in Scotland’s Referendum.
Here’s something for thought:
‘The Accidental Foreigner’ – link to wp.me
R-type,
A passing thought. How’s your mother coping, dealing with the stress would she qualify to be in need of one other?
My sister was able to claim for returning from a holiday when father was taken to hospital on the basis that mother couldn’t cope at home on her own.
I have a high regard for NL consular services in a situation when the brits couldn’t be arsed (too busy) despite it involving a british minor in difficulty.
Chris Cairns,
Sorry to hear that, Best wishes.
David Starkey ?@David5tarkey · 4m4 minutes ago
Time to abolish Scotland #SNPConf
bfh–stunned at this tweet
I see that the BBC Parliamentary Channel is showing the SNP Conference from 2 to 4. It would have been nice for BBC to show the morning session as well but thanks to those above for the links to Independence Live as I was able to watch it. What a crowd at the Conference.
@Grouse Beater
I’d consider it the height of arrogance to live in Spain as an ex-pat and vote against Catalan’s autonomy.
Yes, if living short-term as an ex-pat with the intention of returning to the ‘mother country’
But if I had been living as a Catalan for many generations and intended to die there then why on earth not?
Any qualification for voting other than residence is a minefield. Appealing to the consciences of your designated ‘ex-pats’ in an effort to get them to refrain from exercising their legal franchise is futile.
(In fact I was engaged in exactly the opposite campaign in the run-up to the referendum. We have a French guy living in our community who intended to not vote because it was not ‘his country’. I asked him if he felt part of the community and intended to stay, or if he was going to move back to France. When he said he was in Scotland for the duration I persuaded him he had a right to a say in the future of our country. He voted YES).
We need to present the arguments and win hearts and minds, not attempt to impose rules based on ethnicity.
The publication of this ‘ethnic’ data on the referendum result is calculated to stir up exactly the sort of backlash that seems to be in danger of starting on here. It is ugly, and plays into the hands of ugly people. It should stop right now.
R TYPE.
Am so sorry to here things are worse with your dad. I don’t have clue what to do but want to let you know you are in my thoughts. What a terrible predicament to be in.
I don’t have much but would donate to any funds to help out. I think we all would.
Wingers. any ideas how to help ?
@bfh
The 5tarkey twitter account is a spoof
re. RTYPE’s predicament
How long does it take to set up a fundraiser? I am sure many here would contribute if money would help
@Grouse Beater
I agree unionists will try to hold back on significant devolution as much as possible.
And that some Labour MPs would rather see the Tories govern again rather than make concessions to the SNP.
If however, the SNP holds the balance of power we do have huge influence, especially if we say we will now vote on English matters.
What if the SNP said they will support a labour government only if they implement all the Smith Commission proposals AND just one more condition. Devolve broadcasting.
That alone would remove a huge barrier to independence. As others have said, the new BBC website has even removed direct access to the Scotland national news page. You now have to go through the UK page, or the local page. Just one small example of how important Scotland is to them.
Forget the concept of a ‘Scottish six’ or even impartial news it seems.
Miliband would be under pressure to take that deal. It might be his one and only chance of becoming PM.
Of course how many seats we get will influence how many powers we can demand.
Scots Renewables: “But if I had been living as a Catalan for many generations and intended to die there then why on earth not?”
Try asking that of J.K. Rowling and her attitude to Scotland.
Spain is not my country.
Scots renewables-I agree up to a point, but we do have a serious problem as it seems other nationalities including RUK residents swung the vote dramatically enough for us to lose. I very much doubt the rules will change so we need to find a way to appeal to those people. I’m on grouses side though. I would not vote in a similar situation in another country.
Take a look at @RFCSwitcheroo’s Tweet: link to twitter.com
seems the rev took a wee bit of time to tweet this. something about jim murphy terrifying pensioners in east renfrewshire for the GE
Scots Renewables says:
28 March, 2015 at 12:28 pm
@bfh
The 5tarkey twitter account is a spoof
thx–can be confusing
golf commentator peter alliss has a twitter account that says im not peter alliss,but it is
Edmund
Well we are trying our hardest up here to make our SNP MP’s redundant.
But until that lovely day, we will send representatives to Westminster and to do that they have to be paid, and live somewhere and adhere to rules and regs.
Or do we send them hamstrung?
BBC wants to shutdown the livestream complain like hell.
Colin do some proper research not the politically biased GERS as only source.
@Edmund 10:36
Read the whole story, don’t just feed at the soundbites…
link to metro.co.uk
Had a look at the BBC site and agree with the comments above. No mention of the SNP conference at all. A disgrace as always. Is there also some suggestion that Livestream will be blocked from streaming because BBC have broadcasting rights? Is this North Korea?
The record article is designed to bait people into doing something stupid which will then allow the unionists to claim (again)that we are all blood and soil nationalists. They want to divide and rule, set Scot against Scot, protestant against Catholic. It mustn’t be allowed to work.
@bigHVan: Remember to put your clocks forward 1 hour tomorrow and back 307 years on 7 May
Scots Renewable: not attempt to impose rules based on ethnicity.
Nothing to do with ethnicity. Hence Scotland’s dilemma.
We are not allowed to regain sovereignty.
You get to vote in other countries when you become naturalised having given formal, written commitment to that nation state. You must live there a certain number of years before applying for citizenship. There are formalities to process. You cannot do that in Scotland because we are not a nation state.
Hence, incomers are settlers, transients, or carpetbaggers.
Indeed ewan it is exactly that timed to attempt to create division as the Labour love thing isn’t working.
R-type – glad to try to help – at least you know you’re not alone and can rely on lots of moral support and hopefully some good practical advice too which will provide a solution xxx
And Chris – what a rotten thing to happen! Jeez – I hope they get the scumbags who violated your home and your life.
Two Wingers hurting this weekend folks – just stinks eh 🙁
I’m with Scots Renewables on the non Scots thing. Are we really wanting to attempt to shut out voters because it will work to our advantage? Could we be arguing UKIPs point by saying to people not born in Scotland that I they don’t like our ideas then they are frozen out?
This, perhaps, is yet another reason for pressing onwards to Devo-Max and why it will be resisted. We’re being played for fools here. An upsurge in xenophobia and especially anglophobia is exactly what the unionist parties want. If the SNP or it’s supporters can be tarred as somehow anti-English then that might swing a few seats away from them.
Now Devo-Max will put an actual border around Scotland. It’ll gradually introduce as much distinction between Scotland and the rUK as the Isle of Man and Channel Isles, which is actually sweet fuck all in most instances. It’ll also introduce a gradual separation of pensions and other state provisions. In other words eventually we reach a stage where the pensioners in Scotland will be reasured that they’ll be looked after. Actually given most of us are on a work related pension scheme of one sort or another that argument against independence is time limited any way.
Any road up Devo-Max as a transitory step is a gamble worth taking. It certainly removes the financial upheaval argument. It holds the danger that it might remove the majority of the reasons for independence. That said I think the majority of Scots actually being content is a risk I’m willing to take.
David Starkey ?@David5tarkey · 4m4 minutes ago
Time to abolish Scotland #SNPConf
This is all openly discussed here in England, they voted NO, whats the point in this now anyway? At other end of this scrap Scotland stuff, rancid Guardian headers like
“An antidote to Alex Salmond: offer the Scots home rule
Simon Jenkins”
This is an old school blue tory propagandist, the archetypal running dog lackey in the oxford bumper book of great British lackeys. Rancid Graun know exactly what “antidote” means and what other kinds of fascists have and still do use it
link to dictionary.reference.com
noun
1.
a medicine or other remedy for counteracting the effects of poison, disease
We could have shaken off neo fascist reprobates like rancid Graun once and for all but here we all are, taking the scenic route:D
Re the BBC website:
Unless I have yet to be upgraded, I’m not having the problems that are being reported. I have “set my location” using my postcode, and that gives me 3 BBC News headlines, followed by 2 BBC News Scotland headlines and 1 Glasgow & West Scotland headline. I’m not interested in sport, but that is also split into 2 sections.
I tried to archive this so that I could show you for comparison, but the archived version is not location-specific.
I do agree that the repeated changes to the site always make it worse. I almost never use it now; occasionally I look at the weather, which is why I put in a location.
bookie from hell says:
28 March, 2015 at 12:23 pm
David Starkey ?@David5tarkey · 4m4 minutes ago
Time to abolish Scotland #SNPConf
bfh–stunned at this tweet
Sadly bookie I presume many here are ready well aware that man loathes Scotland, he even thinks our history is an irrelevance and doesn’t want it taught anywhere. Yet this is the same man who signed lasts years love letter from England.
Briandoon the toon introduced me as
link to facebook.com
Withoot the bell. Methinks another Pete & Brian special badge in production lol.
I wonder when Our time is written into the history books what they will say of Rev Stu`s four days in the wilderness.
Is he out there being tempted/tested by the hoors of the Establishment or has Satan (Rupert Murdoch) promised him a comfy well paid 9 till 4 job.
I always see the Conservatives as the Romans.
The `Scottish` Labour are the Jewish elders.
Wings posters are the disciples
And Judas is #####.
Anyhoo I am of on my donkey to the gates of Zion,the promised land (Tyncastle).
What is it about the LibDemz?
They must have put at least15 leaflets, fliers and now bloody booklets thru my letterbox in the past month ALL saying the same old sh1t over and over.
Trying to brainwash people with an avalance of drivvel will NOT wash!
This, despite me telling their canvasser to get lost, Malcolm Wuss was my mums mp for years. He was inept and next to useless! Leaving most of the work to his aide, also next to useless.
If you are a LibDemmer reading this please be advised your “literature” is not required in this household, not now, not ever!
Capiche?
@scots renewables
Now, at no time did i mention blood and soil anything whatever somebody else meant when they coined that particular phrase
In my way of looking at it, i would never come around your house and tell you what your way of life should or should not be or how much you spend on what you wanted
My meaning is, because a person has the legal right to do a thing, does that mean they morally should?
Half my family is English they don’t choose to be, they are
the other half are Scottish same thing applies, they just are, it’s not a slur on anyone
If you lived in America you may choose to be an African American even if you were born there, you don’t just have to be an American or an African
In Britain we are the same colour that does not make us automatically become a member of another white race
I’m not sure if you mean if you lived in Poland for example you would assume a polish identity, because that just doesn’t work does it
Just because all white people look the same doesn’t mean we are
British was and is a construction of convenience
there is no British country or natural nationality
it’s a control tool used to conquer, at one time half the world
British Colonial Policy was, and still is “To make the world England” the term British is only used when it’s used to attempt unity or control
Now i have no real quarrel with any of that if that’s what some believe in
But I just don’t, and i never will buy faux outrage when folk start shouting about how long they’ve lived here there or the next where
You can live in China all your life, i’m sorry but i’m afraid you’re never going to be a Chinese man now are you
I was born in Scotland that makes me Scottish, i can live in England if i want but that won’t make me English
These things only work if you believe you are British and
“Bingo” that makes you a Unionist
Which i am not so agreement is probably futile
Now remember, i originally was the one who stated i was not racist or otherwise but i do tend to find folk who don’t know that they’re racist make more fuss about it
What i’m saying really is a pretty neighbourly thing
Let’s all get along together but i’m me and you’re you
there really isn’t any need to try to pretend we are each other i’m not against anybody, just stay out of my personal
business i won’t vote in England or any other country so don’t vote in mine
What’s so unreasonable?
“An antidote to Alex Salmond: offer the Scots home rule
Simon Jenkins”
Though uncertain in the Referendum run-up if the SNP had argued for Devo-Max on the ballot paper, Salmond makes plain in his book that he DID ask for a three-part plebiscite: Yes, No, Devo-Max.
He knew Yes and Devo-Max was a win-win situation.
So did Cameron.
Cameron refused Devo-Max on the ballot paper.
His advisors told Cameron Scotland was stuffed with incomers, many prepared to vote No. Consequently, a straight Yes-No vote was the antidote to autonomy.
They were correct in that perception.
And they won.
To all of you talking about incomers, transients and carpetbaggers:
It is pure fluke that you were fortunate enough to be born in Scotland; you yourselves played no part in what was a decision for your parents, or, more likely, a default option.
I was born in England because my mother decided to be there at the relevant time – and then bring me up to regard myself as Scottish. Almost (though admittedly not quite) as soon as I was no longer financially dependant on her, I made a move which I considered to be coming back.
I have a German friend who has lived here even longer than I have. She came with me to the Newsroom last year. Had we won, she would have applied for Scottish citizenship, but she doesn’t want to be UKish.
If there is anyone who is seriously suggesting that she and I should not have had a vote in the referendum – be aware that you have really, really pissed me off.
(Rant over, for the time being)
@DrJim
What’s so unreasonable
Before I comment on that, let’s just get one thing straight.
Are you saying that because I was born in England I have no right to help decide the democratic future of Scotland?
I should hand in my SNP membership card and refrain from voting in future Holyrood elections?
Really?
@orri Devo Hee Haw is dead in the past & wont be resurected,it ties us the the Rancid Union for another Decade & Billions of Pounds lost to Scotland full Independence, we,re making the running now not Westminster, so no letup in our Aims.
@mogabee, @Grizzle McPuss
I read the whole thing. I understand the difficulty of living in London because I have to do it myself.
But the money-grubbing MPs get a free London house (under the old rules), or their entire rent paid (under the new rules). IPSA appear to have given Angus MacNeil advice on how to get the maximum benefit from the new rules – namely, rent somewhere while letting out his house. By anyone’s definition (except apparently IPSA’s), that is not a necessary expense.
Angus MacNeil had the option not to claim at all. He could have lived in his flat and paid the £252 mortgage interest out of his salary.
Millions of people work in London while maintaining two houses. These people only see their kids on the weekends. MPs are not in a unique position. And very few of us get accommodation paid for by our employer. A great many well-paid workers in London are forced to live in shared houses.
Instead of claiming more expenses to compensate, MPs should be fixing the housing crisis, or pushing the government to do so.
The other parties are worse. I guess I am so angry because I expected better of the SNP. I’ve now written to Mr. MacNeil directly to express my view.
Hopefully the SNP will get their landslide and can start pushing the next government to clean up Westminster once and for all.
Conferance Livestream will be back after 2pm.
new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/SNP2015
@DrJim
I was born in England. I currently live in England. I have an English accent.
But I grew up in Scotland and spent most of my life there. That is where my friends and family are.
I am Scottish.
Dr Jim – are you saying that because I was born in England I have no right to help decide the democratic future of Scotland?
Please don’t personalise it, or turn the specific into the general. Otherwise, you will be arguing without your vote the Scots can never regain self-governance.
I am putting forward the obvious:
Scotland lives with a politically vicious circle, not being a nation state means no rules of residency exist before you can vote. No rules equals no limit on who votes for autonomy. No autonomy, anybody can vote.
We are left to pray Westminster does something so clearly unacceptable to non-Scots in Scotland that they vote en masse for autonomy. Both things must happen simultaneously to have the desired effect. Indeed, unionists argue that is exactly what we base our entire independence argument upon – a negative.
So, Scots Renewables, how do you propose incomers and transients with no allegiance to Scotland as a country are treated when it comes to voting?
How many years do you wish to give them to see the light?
New poster, have lurked here since long before 18th Sept 2014, voted YES
Now, it would appear my vote was unwanted, at least by some people posting on the site in the last couple of days. Why ? Because, due to circumstances completely outwith my control, I was born in England. I have a Scottish dad, which under the rules of most countries, gives me the right to his nationality which I have always taken. I don’t share his politics, and he treats my views with derision but hey, that’s life.
I have lived in Scotland for over three-quarters of my life, and while I was too young to vote in 1979, I wasn’t too young to understand that changing the rules so we couldn’t win was a diabolical Westminster trick to rob Scotland of it’s oil. Hence I have been an activist for Independence as long as I can remember. Those of my family living in Scotland voted NO in 2014. My remaining family in England, quite rightly, didn’t get a vote.
So why am I now feeling very uncomfortable reading some of these posts ? It’s because some of them sound eerily eugenic, crying weed them out, those who dared to be born elsewhere and yet give the vote to people who managed to appear on Earth on this side of the border. What, even if they don’t live and work and contribute here ? What if they might vote NO ? The more I read some of these posts, the more I start to see “Only those likely to vote YES should get the vote”
Am I still on Wings ?
“Now, it would appear my vote was unwanted, at least by some people posting on the site in the last couple of days. Why ? Because, due to circumstances completely outwith my control, I was born in England.”
I haven’t been watching this thread as I’ve been TRYING to have a holiday (but actually getting ensnared in stupid gender debates on Twitter). What’s all this about? Can someone point me at offending posts, because if anyone here’s got a problem with people being born in England, I’ve got a problem with them.
BBC coverage of the conference here starting 14:30hrs.
link to bbc.co.uk
Tories target SNP.
Should be a 30yr rule if you havent lived here that long you should have no vote in deciding Scotlands rightful independence.
For incomers!
Regarding ‘non-scots’ in my opinion if they come to Scotland make a life here, work here, and love this land as much as I do they are a Scottish Citizen. They have every right to vote. Perhaps not Scots by blood, but they are none the less Citizens of Scotland like the rest of us.
link to uscis.gov
Above – how to become an american citizen. Thankfully you don’t have to jump as many hoops to become an adopted Scot, but the thing is once you compete all that – bam you are an American and in theory loyal only to that nation. How many times have you see immigrants in America after passing citizenship insist on only calling themselves An American.
If someone feels they are more scottish now than anything else, then heck, let them be proud to call themselves Scot. My Canadian mother certainly feels his way, and voted yes to a free Scotland.
Now if your just passing though for a year or two, not intrested in staying here, and still vote – thats beyond rude.
@Chris Cairns -like the character in your novel Trade Secret (which I enjoyed by the way) maybe you should moved to Skye?
You seem to be allowing rabid Unionists to manipulate us into fighting their fight, and ripping ourselves apart. We already had verbal attacks on here against No voting oldsters, and all you are doing is turning people away from the debate for a fairer and more equable society, here in our country.
I got tired of reading this attack on Furriners Who Voted No a long while back. You are doing Scotland a disservice.
Aye Nan, I kept a hold of that little clip with Mark Carney too, he’s clearly very uncomfortable stating what the ‘assets in the Scottish financial sector would be’. He gets around to stating the figure by being prodded some more: North of One Trillion!
You can see he just doesn’t want to ‘say’ this, eyes go down, left hand forefinger strokes his temple.
He ‘knows’ what it means. It means, Scotland has enormous financial capabilities and can more than make its way in the world. In direct contradiction of the claims being made at that time by all who were opposing us in self determination.
I sent this to everyone I know on the morning of the 19th as I recall. When I saw it, I knew we had been well and truly shafted. Lying Bastards the lot of them.
link to youtube.com
Frogesque 9.01 a
An independent Scotland will be forever and must be built brick by brick, stone by stone on bedrock. Shifting sands and hopeful emotion won’t cut it.
With peoples hopes & aspirations.We can acheive A Independent Scotland , the Dream never dies.
The pics of the packed SNP conference look great! No snoozing there.
If you put Scotland before any other country in my book you are a Scot,whether born in Bridgeton ,Bangladesh or Burnley.
The SNP Coference was due to be covered on the BBC Parliament chanel from 2 PM.
It is now long past that and we are still getting NI FM Questions.this is a disgrace
Independent countries must protect their sovereignty.
Fast forward to an Independent Scotland.
The proposal that anyone from England or any other country, could vote in a Scottish election cannot be taken seriously.
If we wish to be a European country, then we should pay close attention to Europe wide voting laws as they apply to ‘incomers’.
May I quote again the example of Germany, where even after 30 years of residency with full employment, ‘incomer’ do not have a vote to elect representatives to the national Government.
Local elections and European elections, yes.
But to the Reichstag – no.
Here are the rules about registering to vote and voting in a general election. I think this is a reserved matter but can’t find a reference. If Scotland becomes independent we can change these rules if people are concerned about it.
During the referendum you were entitled to vote if you were resident in Scotland AND registered to vote.
Who can register to vote?
Anyone aged 16 or over (but you cannot vote until you are 18).
British or qualifying Commonwealth citizens. This means Commonwealth citizens who have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland or other European Union (EU) member states.
Who is eligible to vote at a UK general election?
To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:
be 18 years of age or over on polling day
be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote
Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election:
members of the House of Lords (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)
EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)
anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens
convicted persons detained in pursuance of their sentences (though remand prisoners, unconvicted prisoners and civil prisoners can vote if they are on the electoral register)
anyone found guilty within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal practices in connection with an election
ScotsRenewables 12.07
I find myself agreeing 100%.
The SG got it exactly right when they gave all residents and no-one else the right to vote.
Any other arrangement would be unmanageable and become mired in endless unwinnable arguments, and divisive, destructive, and distracting talk.
More importantly, it gave the Yes campaign colossal strength and moral impregnability.
It is also a true reflection of the inclusivity and welcoming nature of Scotland which is one of its best characteristics and one of the things that make it so special.
So all incomers should get a vote, no question. Anything else is sowing the seeds of destruction.
Your remark on that survey being a deliberate attempt to sow division woke me up. We have to become very aware of the possibility of this. Well spotted.
@ Valerie
Contrast and compare to recent lib dem conference. Much laugher to be had. 🙂
@ Bob Mack
“If you put Scotland before any other country in my book you are a Scot,whether born in Bridgeton ,Bangladesh or Burnley.”
Fortunately, constitutional legislation is not based on how individuals from across the globe feel – no matter whose book is involved.
Livestream back on but mine has just crashed so not sure how reliable it will be. But i am NOT going to watch the BBC whatever happens.
link to new.livestream.com
@Scots Renewables 1.27 @ crazycat 1.27
Completely agree with your sentiments and find the comments from some quite disturbing.
One of the very refreshing things about the referendum was that it was all-inclusive. It was a decision for people who lived and worked here – who had a stake here, irrespective of the accident of their birth. Living and working here gives you every right to have a say in decisions which affect you and the country you live in.
While I would have no objection to firming up the “residency” criteria, talk of “incomers. carpetbaggers’ etc is divisive and inflammatory and does little to attract the considerable number of people, born elsewhere but now resident here, to the cause of independence.
I am really pissed off with some of the comments from people whose opinions I would normally respect. I do not understand what positive outcomes such comments are meant to have.
Apologies – thought I had included the link. Above info from the Electoral commission
link to electoralcommission.org.uk
BBC coverage of the conference here starting 14:30hrs.
Nicola Sturgeon approx 15:00hrs…They say.
link to bbc.co.uk
call me dave
thanks for that. I dont know how you found it, I just looked on the website and I still cant see it.
BBC coverage of the conference here starting 14:30hrs.
link to bbc.co.uk
Andrew Kerr and our fab Pepsi-ologist covering the chatty bits. Brian Taylor down at the Clyde, going deaf with the applause!
Can whoever is doing the livestream at the SECC pan around the audience sometimes so we can get a judge on the atmosphere please.
I think oor Ronnie is tweeting him, so maybe a message there wouldn’t go amiss.
Cheers 🙂
link to caltonjock.com
I am really pissed off with some of the comments from people whose opinions I would normally respect.
+1
In other countries citizenship confers both the moral and legal right to participate in that country’s democracy. In Scotland I am unable to become a citizen, though my 48 years of continuous residence would qualify me for citizenship anywhere else in the world. We all recognise that there is only one solution to that dilemma.
The residence qualification for the referendum was indeed the only one that could possibly be applied. Apart from anything else, evidence suggests that had it been a question of ‘birthright’ then expat Scots living in England would have voted overwhelmingly NO. Would that have been a satisfactory course of events?
And – I wonder if, had the figures just published showed that the ‘incomer’ vote had been predominantly YES, the same outrage would be surfacing?
No, sorry Grouse Beater, you are 100% wrong on this. You are entitled to your own feelings on the matter, but airing them in public is NOT going to help and is simply falling into yet another Unionist trap.
Looks like i’m upsetting folk here which is not my intention
could be i’m not explaining myself clearly enough
At no point am i suggesting anyone should be denied a vote on the basis of Ethnicity, if that’s not clear from my part i can only apologise
But i say again if it’s based on some faux outrage over Britishness and it’s right to go around claiming all sorts of belonging then i’ve no time for that nonsense
Nobody chooses where they were born, but they have certain choices of who they are and where they live
Who sets the time limit on how long you should be in a country before you take part in a constitutional vote if you weren’t born there
What i’m attempting to say is you, the individual but you should also have the good manners when changing the future of that country to be committed to it and not just cast a vote because you have the legal right to do it
That’s why a few of my aquaintances in the Pakistani community and Chinese community abstained because they knew one day they would be going home and considered it good manners not to vote
Not so for their children, which is an entirely different matter Scotland is their country it’s all they know and will be here as 2nd generation and i welcome them
If you consider yourself British, all i’m saying is would you please have the same good manners as some of our immigrant friends have and refrain from using a vote to change my country into what you want as opposed to what i as a Scot, who intends to be here wants
Would it be considered fair for example for as many Scots as possible moving to England for a while and voting to keep that country in Europe against their will just because they could
All i’m pointing out is an animosity which people seem to enjoy finding in these types of discussion when there is none intended and it usually comes from the identity of Britishness which is what the Independence debate is all about is it not
If anyone finds my opposition to being British as opposed to Scottish in any way offensive i can only say my desire is and will always be to own a passport with Scotland embossed on it because that’s who and where i come from
I am also a member of the SNP you’re allowed a view
@ Capella
Does that mean that John Thurso cannot vote for himself? Or does the fact that he was not one of the hereditary peers “elected” to retain a vote in the Lords, thereby becoming eligible to stand for the Commons, also exempt him from the rule you quoted?
(Foulkes can’t vote, however, which is most amusing.)
Regards to the debate on who should be allowed to vote, let’s not let the Unionists push us into their usual tactic of divide and conquer.
I have a Scottish mother and English father – does that mean that I think any less of Scotland than someone born there, or someone born elsewhere to two Scottish parents? Does that mean I think less of her and am somehow less “Scottish”. This is a dangerous track to take.
We are, for ill, in this Union and over which Westminster dictates the constitution. It is in reality THEY who determine who should be allowed to vote, and if I recall, the voting was on the same basis as the Euro-Elections (with regards to residency etc.)
Dr Jim makes a moral point – one I can agree with to this extent. If I considered myself a visitor, albeit a long term visitor, to a country, even if I had the vote on a constitutional matter, I would not use it. I would take the view that my commitment to the country is not strong enough.
However, if that country was my home, and I had no intentions t leave, then YES I would vote. because I would be voting for MY future as well as those born there etc.
How many people not of Scottish descent considered that Scotland WAS their home, for life, I don’t think anyone knows. I don’t think we will ever know, so this back-looking discussion is bound to fall on hard rocks.
We MUST be forward looking, not backwards looking. How do we ensure that the message of a successful, prosperous, engaging, and inclusive Scotland gets across to those who obviously had doubts? that is our challenge. Let us NOT, please, allow those who have little regard for Scotland distract us from that objective.
@ Scots Renewables
I agree 100%. Let’s stop doing the Unionists job for them and creating unnecessary division. “All of us first” is the Commonweal aim and it’s worth supporting each other in the YES campaign and staying alert to subtle attempts to undermine our resolve.
Now back to the ever crashing Livestream. Nicola on soon.
p&j poll
link to pressandjournal.co.uk
@DrJim
Just to be clear – I regard myself as Scots, not British, and voted for and campaigned for a YES vote.
However, that can hardly be used as a qualification to vote.
By all means appeal to temporary residents to refrain from voting, but don’t expect such an appeal to morality or conscience to have much effect.
People living temporarily in Scotland who felt ‘British’, believed in the Union and found themselves with a vote would feel obliged to vote – as this vote concerned the future of their country, which they saw as the UK.
Do you think expat Scots should have had a vote? I believe the result would have been a larger defeat had that been the case.
This is a dead end discussion. Let’s finish the job and then discuss the citizenship requirements for our country.
I find it really strange that there is a debate on this who is allowed to vote. The rules were clear and we were happy (most of us) to go into the referendum that way. Do we really now want to change the rules based on the outcome of the referendum just so that we can swing things in our favour? I don’t want us to win like that.
The result of the ’79 ref with the 40% rule (to swing into WM favour) sticks in our throats, how far down this road will this debate go?
@ crazycat. It should mean that! But I think that when Labour changed the rules and reduced the number of peers in the HoL they also allowed peers to vote and to be elected to the commons (presumably just those not eligible to sit in the Lords). History of “reform” here:
(don’t hold your breath)
link to parliament.uk
Tony Little @2.48pm I would dislike anybody who lives in Scotland being refused a vote in any future Referendum. I have argued with my closest that many people who live in Scotland but cannot claim Scots Nationality voted for an independent Scotland. I would say almost as many Scots voted against. We have to reassure those who were terrified of leaving the comfort as they see it of economic certainty though where and how they feel secure in the UK is well beyond me. I am very against this whole divide and conquer idea as practised by Westminster, it has been used against so many people, we should recognise it and stand against it.
@ Edmund says:
“I was born in England. I currently live in England. I have an English accent.
But I grew up in Scotland and spent most of my life there.
That is where my friends and family are.
I am Scottish.”
I was born in Scotland. I live in Scotland. I have a Scottish accent.
I grew up in Scotland and have lived here all my life.
Most of my family and friends also live here.
I am a Scot.
Maybe we could have a pint together …
Nicola’s on
This is a dead end discussion. Let’s finish the job and then discuss the citizenship requirements for our country.
I tend to agree but it is clear that for some here the believe we cannot finish the job without addressing this. We can’t just ignore this.
we seem to be going round in circles here folks.
Warp factor 7 Mr sulu, get me out of here.
We were told that as long as one hundred of us remained alive Scotland would survive, well we have one hundred and two thousand who are willing Scotland to be reborn. I think we should remember that Robert Bruce was of Norman English and Scots blood, I don’t think we should discriminate. We have people here who were brought up to believe that the UK was actually looking after them, who fought a war arm in arm with many people in England and will not be moved. I met a man at the polling station on the 18th September, there with his wife, English, with his Saltire on his car, going in to vote YES. I also know of one person with a good Scots name who voted NO. Who would have thought that.
@Morag says: 28 March, 2015 at 1:20 am:
“This WP system is nuts. I’m not getting the 20-minute delay on this computer, but I just had a post go into moderation with my name and email address all spelled correctly. No clue what trigger word or words might be in it.”
Finna Fash, Young Lady, the time to start worrying is when the trigger word is, “Morag”, then you can worry.
;-))
The engines willnae take it, Marie!
If we are going to let the establishment divide and rule us on these grounds then I want no part of the kind of Scotland that implies. They have succeeded in making “immigration” a big issue south of the border, and to some extent here. This is another step on that road to make Scotland the same as rUK.
More women voted no than men: should we disenfranchise them?
More older people voted no than younger people: should we disenfranchise them?
If not, then for those of you advocating this, what is the difference if it is not ethnic nationalism?
Scottish genes, born here, born there, old, young, female, male, rich, poor, employed, unemployed, pensioner, disabled …. the focus should be … a majority CAN be persuaded to vote for a pro-Scotland party, and ultimately for independence. We should exclude no one, we should target, educate and entice everyone. We will never get there unless we get a firm majority on board.
I’m warming to the ‘nippy sweetie’ every time I hear her!
Heady and inspirational stuff. Even “providing a spine for a possible minority labour party” she says 🙂
To see the same things we usually have to stand in the same place.
Most people argue about what they see and thereby fail to see
that what they need to do is to change their position.
By moving to common ground, and then edging closer by agreement,
both sides have the best chance to share the same vision.
Very occasionally, I will drive round a roundabout several times
because I am not clear which exit to take, perhaps because the signs are hard to read, or because there are so many of them. Upon finding the right road, I have never found going round in circles a bad idea.
@ Capella
Thanks for the link. It’s not clear (surprise!) what the full consequences were of the reduction in hereditary rights.
It’s certainly the case that some hereditary peers lost the right to vote in the House of Lords; those that retain it are elected by other hereditary peers (there are occasionally by-elections when one of them dies; the candidates can – but are not obliged to – provide a potted biography, and these are frequently hilarious).
Peers who weren’t elected were then compensated by being allowed to stand in the Commons. Thurso seems to be the only person to have availed himself of this – Douglas Hogg was already an MP when he inherited his title, and Michael Ancram, who had been eligible because the Earldom of Ancram was a courtesy title, also continued after becoming Marquess of Lothian.
It would be a bit strange if standing successfully for the Commons regained someone a vote they had lost by becoming a peer, but since the rules are strange, it wouldn’t greatly surprise me if this were so. I’ll try to find out.
I liked:
If you want a labour government with backbone and guts then you need to elect the SNP to provide it for them
@Grouse Beater says: 27 March, 2015 at 8:34 pm:
” … But it covers a multitude of sins when it comes to voting rights that can undermine a country’s sovereignty”
Then, Grouse Beater, allow me to point out the converse and dire results of NOT to adopt the definition of, “The People of Scotland”, as the criterion we use.
In 1962 my sister, brother in law and their brood were among the last of the £25 Australian immigrants. They were soon followed by my mother and father. By coincidence one of the first people my sister met was a Scottish lady who bore our family name. It turned out that lady, while unknown to myself, had shared a school annex playground my school shared with another nearby school and I was researching the family roots at the time. The Lady was a second cousin.
Now what if all those, “People of Australia”, claimed their rights as native born Scots to vote in referenda concerning Scotland. For heaven’s sake, Grouse Beater, there are more people of Scots descent in London than remain in Scotland.
Now history shows it was such as the London Scot, William Patterson and his ilk, since long before the Treaty of Union, that saw Scotland’s birth right sold for English gold. Hoards of such native born Scots. still greedy for English gold live among us, and live in London, today.
If those of Scottish descent throughout the World came, “Home”, there would not even be standing room only and some would be up to their necks in Scottish Territorial waters too.
Nicola in fine form, with lots of substance in her announcements.
102,143 members!!!!
Nicola Sturgeon.
Just watched Nicolas speech
WOW!
Just wow!
Fantastic speech
I wonder how much of it will see the light of mainstream TV
Haha, Hosie dealing with Brian Taylor’s questions with ease as the cheers for Sturgeon continue in the background. Delightful.
Absolutely stunned by Nicola’s speech – How does she do it with just the one kitchen?
@R-type Grunt: 1.52am:
Having lost my much loved wife to just such a heart problem I feel for you. I can only advise that as an EU Citizen you have the legal right to help from any EU embassy anywhere in the World.
You know as well as we do that the UK Government claim all the UK Embassies belong only to England and don’t give a damn for Scots. Get yourself to an EU country Embassy and you will have a far better chance of getting help there.
The discussion about qualification for voting rights is worth having.
Progress on this issue is not helped by applying sentiment to legal issues,
or by applying inclusivity inappropriately – as in a Referendum about Independence.
The very act of basing the vote exclusively on residence, excludes those working abroad because of the lack of employment opportunities at home.
What about inclusivity for them.
Sentiment will not allow me to open a bank account. Paper evidence is required. How I feel about having an account at a particular bank is, frankly, irrelevant, though probably touching.
The core issue about incomer voting is sovereignty.
Every independent country takes care to make sure that it’s sovereignty
cannot be usurped by a large influx of immigrants
overwhelming the indigenous population in elections,
and as a result taking over the Governance of the country.
A lesser point, but not unimportant – Scotland wishes to be a European country.
The way to go about that is not to enact laws which are at odds
with one’s political and economic neighbours and partners.
A last point. We all make mistakes.
The Scottish Government made mistakes in the Referendum.
So what – let’s have the discussion about those and get it sorted.
Not to do so is the first step to an Official Secrets Act in Scotland.
For those with limited attention span, as I have myself on some subects,
may I suggest you find something else which interests you
and concentrate on that,
until Wings changes tack to another subject more to your liking.
It’s all in a days work toward Independence.
What a speech by Nicola!!!!!!!!!!!!
No wonder she has a positive rating across the whole UK.
The very act of basing the vote exclusively on residence, excludes those working abroad because of the lack of employment opportunities at home.
What about inclusivity for them.
I know a fair few long-term expat Scots. To a man they supported the status quo.
Be careful what you wish for.
On another matter, I subscribed to this comment thread, and now my inbox is inundated as we canter towards 1,000 comments – how do you unsubscribe?
Alex Smith says:
28 March, 2015 at 4:04 pm
Absolutely stunned by Nicola’s speech – How does she do it with just the one kitchen?
Great coffee!
Swinney just given brilliant economic interview with Taylor, curtis now trying his best to convolute
Things.
Great speech from Nicola.
@ crazycat she promises to abolish the House of Lords
What a breath of fresh air.
Hope Livestream can last out for the Land Reform resolutions.
Why no live TV Coverage tomorrow?
Did anyone else see our Rev in the audience at the SNP conference?
……..JOKING!!!
Curtis – comparison with UKIP, no need to reach out to NO voters . . . . dreadful man
There is a lot to be said to giving the Diaspora a vote in Scottish elections – IE born but forced or opted to emigrate.
For many years in Ireland there has been a campaign to allow the Irish Diaspora a vote in An Seanad or upper house and Presidency – and allowing residents only to vote in the Dail or lower house.
The argument has been won and is generally supported by most parties but various vested interests have been delaying and denying the concensus.
However, I feel there will be progress on this soon, and this may create a another precedent for allowing the Scottish Diaspora to vote at the next referendum.
THAT BEING SAID – there is already overwhelming precedent.
At the moment in Ireland, polling stations are set up for local residents from Countries as diverse as Poland and the US to allow them to vote in their own elections even though the are long-term residents and paying tax here – so I don’t see why the Diaspora in Scotland could not be facilitated internationally using the same processes that already exist.
@Alex Smith
It’s the coffee. lol!
Maybe the criteria for voting in a futre referendum should be to pass an IQ test. (Only joking 😉 ).
Scottish National Party conference:
Better than nothing!
Further live coverage will be shown from 10:30 to 12:30 and from 14:30 to 15:30 on Sunday.
link to bbc.co.uk
Wonderful Speech and inspiring in it’s content. Bitching from the BBC but then we expect it. Nice to see the Guardian correspondent there who thinks our Nicola is the most inspiring Politician in Britain today, we concur Libby.
galamcennalath at 3:27 pm
Exactly, well said.
The SNP stance on the House of Lords is going to really pile the pressure on Labour.
Can I suggest that we find any election fundraisers not quite there yet and send them by Facebook or email to our friends at the conference to circulate more widely?
Can anyone send this one with £1500 left to go?
link to crowdfunder.co.uk
Absolutely f#ckin barnstorming performance by NS. BBC and MSM sick as parrots. Feel sorry for any fellow progressives across UK who have just watched that speech, then look at their voting options.
Am I alone in thinking the BBC staffers, (Now covering the SNP Conference on the Parliament Channel), are sounding exceedingly worried and really quite desperate.
Now there’s a great title for a BBC political programme, “Disparate BBC Oiks”. Brian Taylor seemed almost hysterical. Only the BBC could are ttack a political party people at the party’s own conference. One thing Taylor and Co. are and that is unbiased.
I wonder if tomorrows BBC political coverage will be quite so hysterical being a bit more distant from the event. I think the BBC Scotland Branch Office really are beginning to feel and show naked fear for their futures.
Journos and the worlds only living psephologist letting slip that theyre impressed by the size and energy of the SNP conference as compared to the others 🙂
@manandboy, don’t agree on expats getting a vote. Every expat I know would have voted No, couldnt understand why so many of us could back a Yes vote. They no longer contribute to our social or financial fabric, therefore can butt out.
I wonder what the revs getting for his tea the nicht.
To give a wee flavour to NS speech today to those who never seen it.
The conference hall is Rocking,all the political journalists in unison,that speech,blew the all the other UK party leaders clean out of the water,many taking a view that it was the best speech they have ever heard.
Please,you must watch it on you tube/anywhere later if you can,Nicola Sturgeon truly inspiring.
Has ANY other party leader EVER started a Conference speech by asking their newest local councilors to take a bow?
A party built on its members and activists, confident and yet still willing to put in the hard miles. Nicola hit exactly the right balance in her speech. There is no one, not even Alex, can match her. She is a true leader.
@tony little
Thank you Tony, more or less my attempt at my point well made
Sometimes you can say a thing and it’s immediately understood
Sometimes when you read something, understanding the writers intent may be less obvious
What a cracking speech from Nicola Sturgeon!
BBC pundits doing their best to limit the damage to Establishment parties, would be funny if it wasn’t so serious. A question of true democracy. Something the Establishment parties and the BBC aren’t terribly interested in.
@manandboy says: 28 March, 2015 at 3:16 am:
” … And, in conclusion, that means the ‘incomers’ held the ‘balance of power’, and with it, they held Scotland’s Independence in their hands.”
Not only is that balderdash but it is a very dangerous balderdash. For starters, besides the quite racist nature of your post, This almost activist for Scottish independence for just under 70 years will most certainly NOT be voting for any independence seeking body that adopts such racist policies and I’ve never voted other than SNP since I gained the right to vote.
Here’s a wee cut and paste, (lifted directly from the UK Parliament’s website),
“People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, and a British citizen, or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland”
See that bit – “or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland”,
Even the Establishment, who have fought the Irish Independence movement since long before the Crown of Ireland Act, (1542), have never barred the Irish Republicans not only from voting in parliament but allows them to stand and be elected as MPs.
BTW: Why are you so ready to believe this quite obvious lump of Establishment propaganda as being true?
The two BBC stooges, Taylor and Curtice were tried very hard to take some of the shine off of a brilliant speech by NS.
They failed miserably.
Great speech by Nicola, especially on the House of Lords. There really needs to be an “SNP for England”, it is not fair that they have no party to vote for that promises the same policies as the SNP (barring, perhaps, the Greens).
I have two questions, which I would be grateful if more enlightened fowk on here could answer:
1. Nicola demands exclusion of the NHS from any TTIP agreement. But why not just fight against TTIP in toto? Why leave education services vulnerable, why allow tobacco companies to sue us if we demand plain packaging (as is happening in Australia)? Am I missing something?
2. Talk of holding the Labour Party’s feet to the fire and bolstering them to be a “real” Labour Party… Who exactly are these Labour MPs that are going to vote against austerity? Is it maybe a shrewd move to actually split the Labour Party in two? If, in our left-wing country, our SLAB members are all Thatcherite troughers (and we know they are), what hope south of the border? We all know they hate us even more than the Blue and Yellow Tories do (just ask Winnie Ewing)!
I am sure Labour would form a coalition with the Tories anyway “to save the UNITED Kingdom”, National Government like in the 1930s, etc. etc. I think it might be electoral suicide to go into government with Labour, especially is some black swans arise… Better to form a strong block of principled anti-austerity MPS with Plaid Cymru and maybe persuade Sinn Fein to sit, in my opinion. The Red Tories = Blue Tories in my mind and I rather fail to see why on the one hand we would NEVER vote with the Blue Tories, yet work with the Red Tories. In my mind, they are the exact same!
Am I missing something? And what do people feel about TTIP exclusions only being confined to the NHS?
Got kicked off a Facebook page called Boycott The SNP earlier. Anyone come across this scum?
One of the moderators has posted another of those DISGUSTING comments comparing the SNP with the Nazis.
What is WRONG with these people? I did a blog on it, and I think you can tell I’m furious.
link to commentisntfree.com
Luigi says:
28 March, 2015 at 4:20 pm
🙂
Mealer says:
28 March, 2015 at 4:51 pm
“I wonder what the revs getting for his tea the nicht.”
It’s ironic – the days he takes a break, there’s been enough news for about 20 new topics.
My post early doors this morning about Voters was never meant to spark any division today .
Can we please abandon further discussion on this recent report / survey as M&B says we are always going to be viewing from a slightly different position .
For the said report to have had any realistic chance of being accepted as true it should have been in the public domain in Oct or NOV 2014 .
I appreciate some are merely airing their thoughts and for free speech to have any value then this is fair and here would be an acceptable platform for sharing your view .
R type Grunt is in need of our help in a far flung part of the world .
Chris Cairns has a horrible situation to deal with .
Jeezo.
Let us all get back to normal and focus on the SNP Conference for today .
For the Greens ,SSP and any other Pro Indy parties you have our support too .
FOCUS FOLKS !
@manandboy
I was born in England and have lived here most of my life. I voted yes, why should I not be allowed tovote?
I think what you propose is wrong and smacks of what you would expect ukip to propose.
Robert Peffers says:
28 March, 2015 at 4:35 pm
Am I alone in thinking the BBC staffers, (Now covering the SNP Conference on the Parliament Channel), are sounding exceedingly worried and really quite desperate.
Hell yes the BBC should be worried, this was an election war cry from the SNP and it chilled them to their deceitful bones. The SNP want devolved broadcasting – and if they get 50+ MPs you better believe that will come.
The BBC should be worried
The Lords should be worried
The Tories should be worried
The Employers operating zero hour contracts should be worried
The private health groups waiting to buy up the NHS should be worried.
The people of Scotland and those in England that believe in anti-austerity true democratic and progressive politics should be hopeful.
So England, how about those evil Jocks wanting to keep your NHS free, give a better minimum wage increase than labour and protect you from the worst austerity cuts? Absolute monsters, I know.
@MScots Renewables
On another matter, I subscribed to this comment thread, and now my inbox is inundated as we canter towards 1,000 comments – how do you unsubscribe?
Under the SUBMIT COMMENT button
untick the box beside ‘Notify me of follow-up comments by email.’
That’ll unclog you’re inbox a little.
The way I see it all non Scottish peeps residing in Scotland should have been automatically registered as a YES vote based on the fact they were so happy to be here. I also believe that the quicker that Stu is back and this topic is punted into the waste bin the better. I also believe that the speech that Nicola just gave should be required viewing for everybody north of lands end before they are allowed to vote. I am away oot tae get a fish supper and have my tongue unplanted from my cheek. Slangevar 🙂
almannysbunnet: The way I see it all non Scottish peeps residing in Scotland should have been automatically registered as a YES vote based on the fact they were so happy to be here
Good one. I always enjoy satire. 😉
@James Forest
I would not respond to the Nazi/fascists jibes and smears. I would imagine that the people making these kind of comments are for the most part die-hard British nationalists. The kind who will not acknowledge that there are any borders in the UK (well apart from the Irish border that is). They view Britain as a country/nation, and not as a state. You will not get anywhere with them, a complete waste of time even trying to engage with them. They want independence supporters to get angry with them because it merely fuels their own beliefs and convictions.
Almannysbunnet,
The revs probably tucking into a fish supper even as we speak.
Muttley79 5.39
I like to ask those Britnat types how they intend to vote at the next referendum.Seems to wind them up.
Who’s in charge the MSM ask…No doubt about it now.
That was the right speech at the right time for the right reasons.
BBC pundits left muting unionist type words to deflect and detract but all batted away by Stuart Hosie.
Been at lots of conferences in the past unfortunately poor health keeping me back at present but this was uplifting and struck the right chords.
Happy as Larry (phrase came up in the cafe this morning) I thought I would use it! 🙂
@Kenny
Aye, I was disappointed that Nicola Sturgeon did not condemn TTIP more as well, along with the very slight minimum wage increase it was the most disappointing aspect for me of the speech. As you say she only condemned it in terms of the NHS, and not other public services. TTIP can GTF as far as I am concerned.
The speech showed how far away we are from creating a real Nordic type social democracy. Unfortunately, the No vote has put a considerable dent on those ambitions for at least a good while.
Scots Renewables: The residence qualification for the referendum was indeed the only one that could possibly be applied.
I am afraid not. That was imposed.
If one is to argue anybody living or working in Scotland can vote irrespective of their allegiances, or short-term residency, (I have no fundamental objection to that) it becomes impossible to exclude ex-pats by the same logic, lately departed our shores or long-time gone who left Scotland to seek work because life here for them was not sustainable. A great many protested about their exclusion – a sure sign they were still connected to their homeland.
I notice you do not answer my question: if, as the recent report testifies, Westminster correctly relied on people feeling British to say No, that is, they identified with Westminster politics, how long do you suppose we should wait to try again for independence?
The fatal flaw in your emotional argument is to deny that Scotland is a colonised country, and will remain so. How then, are we to win a vote that isn’t based on universal contempt for Westminster politics? That needs an answer that isn’t tarring and feathering a questioning spirit.
And by the way, I deplore your rush to call any debate on the matter ‘ethnic.’ You have caused others to rush to similar judgment and misinterpret honest curiosity.
lumilumi says: What a cracking speech from Nicola Sturgeon!
It certainly was! Strangely odd to be cheering democracy for England after 300 years of it being denied Scotland.
Can we drop this absolute pish about defining who is and who is not Scottish, and/or who should have the right to vote in referendums and elections in Scotland please? These are not the values that I believe the vast majority of people in the Yes campaign campaigned for. I loathe this kind of a Scottish Alf Garnett divisive shit, it is bad enough having that odious UKIP cretin representing us, without some on our own side coming out with the same kind of repellent dog whistle politics. Pack it in please.
Gordon talking in support of I Murray at Liberton High School about the threat of SNP earlier today.
‘Activists’ not sure how to combat the SNP message ..straws in the wind. Not much of Gordon’s wise words appear! 🙂
link to archive.today
PS:
Twice this week the National X-word has had clues missing 🙁
Forgot to add: I notice Nicola Sturgeon did not mention Police Scotland and justice issues in her speech. She needs to get a grip on the police force ASAP. The top boy of Police Scotland is acting the goat, and badly needs reigned in.
Muttley: TTIP can GTF as far as I am concerned.
Good point. It is a recipe for corporate imperialism, composed in the USA for by US companies for US companies, part of the march of increasing neo-liberal power and profit.
Sigh, are people still going round and round on that roundabout on a day when the SNP are in inspiring form?
I have a friend who travels a lot to Canada to stay with ex pat Glaswegian relatives. She was amazed at how many expats really really don’t want us to be independent and I had to explain a phenomenon to her.
If expats had a vote on Scottish independence we would never get it. You see to them Scotland is the country they left, too poor too wee etc. Every day they are in their new countries making their way in the world they are reminded that they left a country that couldn’t do for them what their new country can. It’s comforting to them to see we are still that country they left, some of them still can’t beleive you can walk the streets of Glasgow city centre for when they left you couldn’t.
They left for opportunity that they were denied here. It has left something of a bitterness in them that they couldn’t change their country and live a good life here. These people will never vote for an independent Scotland, proud Scots though they are it doesn’t include the Scotland of today and the people living here today. They are blood and soil unionists because it is their world view. As others have commented there are enclaves like this all over the world, we are second only to the Irish in having to let our talented people go away to make their life. For these people we couldn’t offer them enough to stay, better housing, better cities, better incomes.
They left because they had to and as surely as that hurts it also breeds a little bit of anger that we couldn’t give them the essentials of a future. They can only look back as many unionists do to how it was and we as a country need to look forward, cherish the people, all the people who make Scotland their home.
We will do that only through becoming a thriving independent country.
Now it should be clear we do not win the argument by making other people not born here feel they are less of a Scot. That way lies bitterness and division and the only way that we can fail to become a better country is to get involved in a contest of who is more Scottish than who.
There’s an election in a few short weeks which the establishment are desperate to win for their choice and it isn’t the choice of Scotland at present. They will try any tactic to discredit our choice. Let’s bear that in mind in the next few weeks that when we start discussing their agenda and the things they do they take away from the good things we are trying to do.
Link to Nicola’s speech:
link to snp.org
Watch it live and she was truly outstanding.
Hosie and Swinney also interviewed by a very unwell looking Brian Taylor. They ran rings round his “ah but your opponents will say” loaded questions.
@ muttley79
“Can we drop this absolute pish ”
“Scottish Alf Garnett divisive shit”
“odious UKIP cretin representing us”
“repellent dog whistle politics.”
In an honest exchange of views, a disagreement by one party
does not in any circumstances justify foul mouthed abuse.
Which is what the above amounts to.
Let me use one of your own phrases – ” Pack it in please”.
Dr Jim, Grousebeater, Manandboy
I have always had respect for you, Dr Jim; you just destroyed it. I will never now be able to read anything you post without remembering that you think of me as an incomer who shouldn’t presume to have a say in the future of the country I love, for which I would give my life (I am NOT joking about that, by the way)and to which I have contributed by bringing up three beautiful, brave children who believe in social justice and inclusion, and teaching hundreds of Scottish children to read, write, add/subtract and be decent human beings. Not to mention all the taxes I have paid.
Grousebeater, I have always had my doubts about you; you just confirmed them irrefutably.
Manandboy; I have learnt to skip your tiresome rants and your inability to understand that you don’t need to press the return button every time you get to the end of a line. You would clearly be happier in the Scottish Defence League.
I am more disappointed than I can say.
Cag-does -thinking, 6.09pm
Thank you. You hit the nail on the head.
Muttley79
You will need independence before a Nordic type democracy is possible.
I have to say that as someone who has laughed & cried with you all for quite a while now, I was quite surprised at many of the comments on this thread today. From my perspective, I see a country that welcomes people as you have done here with me, but it seems that it only extends so far & no further. That even though I plan to retire to Scotland in a short while, having lived there in the past, that you would want to limit my participation in democratic decisions or to put it bluntly, to make me into a 2nd class citizen. Do you realise just what a kick in the guts that is?
I had decided to stay out of this thread because I didn’t see it as any part of my business but rather a decision for Scots to make but what you’ve done is to give the impression that you are little Scotlanders-just like UKIP in England does & believe me, it’s not a very pretty sight.
I have no intention of being a 2nd class citizen wherever I live & for the first time ever I have a choice which isn’t dictated by family wishes, work etc. My decision to make & live with for good or bad as it will be the last move I make. But now you have me wondering whether I’m doing the right thing. I already feel like an alien in my own country because I don’t see things the way that others around me do, yet you seem to indicate that I will permanently be the same status in Scotland.
I’m not sure that I would call that ‘inclusive democracy’ at all.
Thanks guys-guess I have some thinking to do 🙁
Mealer says
“I wonder what the revs getting for his tea the nicht.”
Yea, funny last night,
creeping me out tonight. 🙂
Excellent SNP conference and first class speech from all participants especially the one and only NICOLA.
However we need rid of the English Bullshit Corporation and their Home Counties propaganda bias. They are the mouthpiece of WESTMINSTER and the establishment transmitting their propaganda to support the rancid WESTMINSTER system.
We urgently need control of Scottish radio and TV Broadcasting in our own country.
The EBC has done enough damage to Scotland, they are despicable puppets of the Establishment in WESTMINSTER. They are beneath contempt and totally untrustworthy.
I mentioned it before but just want to give you wingers an example of the “transient” issue. I have a Russian work colleague and he has moved from country to country in Europe for the last seven years working. He voted in September and has no intention of staying here. He has just helped to deny my country it’s independence and had no qualms. Do you think that is fair?
there are many of us who were born outside Scotland (Ireland in my case) who have adopted Scotland as our home and tried to do our bit to bring about independence. So please, please resist the temptation to blame the outcome of the referendum of this group of voters as it risks alienating a substantial fraction of indy supporters. The 2014 referendum is water under the bridge now and we need to move ahead and forge a country that is inclusive and fair. Hopefully the GE will move us further towards that goal.
John King 6.32
No problem John.I’ll shut my puss.
STOP BLOODY ARGUING, BT will love it
you don’t need to press the return button every time you get to the end of a line
#favourite
Natasha – stop playing silly buggers – as my ex-pat Aussie cousin would say. 😉
Scotland is not an inclusive democracy when we can not govern it as a fully mature nation state. Sheesh!
We are a colonised country. Yes, some have taken to Scotland with good grace. But we excluded ex-pat Scots from the vote and called it inclusive. Those crying ‘ethnicity’ are restricting participation because they assume ex-pats would all vote NO.
How do we increase participation?
@ Lollysmum and Natasha
I doubt anyone here will actually get to influence the framework of a future referendum, so be glad of that. For the little it’s worth, listening to your stories id like to think most of us here would see you as nothing less than our own. My own mother is foreign and I’ve found much of this talk sad. Is it always like this when the Rev leaves for a few days?
If it ever turned out the next referendum had stupid restrictions like this, I simply wouldn’t vote if a member of my family couldn’t.
Lollysmum
Don’t be deterred. It’s just a few pricks who should know better. You will always be welcome – just as I was made to feel more than welcome at the age of 22 when I came to Scotland expecting to be mocked for my accent in the same way I was from the age of 7 in Yorkshire.
Grousebeater – too late, mate, the damage has been done. You’ve revealed your true colours and you can’t take it back now.
Great conference and great watching on Indy Live. Nicola Sturgeon is outstanding.
Can anyone tell me why Google have Union Jack sports characters on its search engine! Crass to say the least on an SNP conference day! American head in the sand!
I seldom contribute to discussion – while regularly reading several times a day. After 45 years avoiding joining a political party because of the need to accept things I could not agree to, I finally joined the Scottish NATIONAL Party after the referendum. Finally, one issue became more important than my concerns about individual issues. I did not join a NATIONALIST party on grounds of race, ethnic origin, or accident of birthplace, but the NATIONAL party to deliver for Scotland – all of its people – even those with whom I disagree.
Stuart may be on holiday. Something happened today which ought to overshadow some of the minor issue of what is “Scottish” compared to what Scotland could be.
Look to the future – see the vision – aim higher!
@Natasha
Can i just say, whoa whoa whoa, a few folk today have missed my point i’ts not UKIPy or racist stuff
I’ll try to make this clearer,it’s probably my fault, explanation wise
The way the system was working it meant that somebody. say working in Scotland for maybe a couple of years or so could determine the future and direction of a country by using their legal right to vote and then return whence they came whenever
My attempt at a point was to say, i’m not denying your right to vote, i’m asking if you think i’ts morally defensible and good manners to use it in that way
I don’t know how far back you looked but i pointed out how i lived in Spain for around 15 years but would never have considered voting on issues in their country and my neighbours their thanked me for it
I lived in their country by their rules and felt it was not my place to attempt to change that as i knew one day i would be returning home
I just don’t see how a visitor to a country even though afforded the right to vote should use it
A couple of other posters have made similar observations
but this is certainly not, repeat not a call to deny or refuse anyone the right to vote
So much for an inclusive social democracy- if the arguments in here are starting to alienate fellow Wingers, how do you think the undecided and no voters would view it?
Be nice to each other.
Caledonius – yes, unfortunately it is like this when the Rev leaves. Usually it’s trolls coming in and winding people up. In this case, I’m not accusing Grousebeater, Dr Jim or Manandboy of being trolls – just pricks.
@Joemcg
Thats my point, only shorter and better
Thank you sir
Would ex-pats vote no? I reckon they would be by and large more enthusiastic yes voters than some of the nawbags that live here.
Labour’s mugs!
link to shop.labour.org.uk
Latest SNP broadcast.
link to youtube.com
Not read all the comments about who should be eligible to vote in an Indy ref, but will chuck my view in for what it is worth.
I voted having only lived in Scotland for six years. Before I met my Scots born wife I was a complete ignoramus regarding Scottish history. My knowledge was gleaned from Braveheart, New Year’s Eve shows from Scotland, old encyclopaedias, etc. stereotypes.
It took living here to appreciate what a wonderful country this is, with truly interesting, welcoming, engaging friends and neighbours showing me customs, traditions, gripes and revelations. I love celebrating Burns, Hogmanay, Scotland’s rare on pitch victories. I have spent time in Norway and see many similarities. But most of all I see the potential of Scotland to have the social justice and welfare systems of Scandinavian countries.
I voted Yes because I saw the potential in Scotland. Yes because I did not feel No was the answer. (And if i had thought No I would not have voted because why should I screw up the dreams of indigenous Scots? There are many who have lived in Scotland and dreamed of Independence. Me coming along and choosing on a not very deep felt whim to vote No was not gonna happen. I am sure No voters would say if Yes had been successful then my Yes vote would have condemned Scotland…naturally I disagree)
Maybe a part of me voted Yes cos I felt I could not look at Scot’s born folk in the eye…but mainly cos I wanted the best for my child.
The vomitous spewing of hate for Indy seeking Scots has come from the media. I am an incomer technically, as I have come into Scotland. But I have chosen this place as my home and I feel proud to stand up for it, even if it means criticising England. Certainly, the Scots are treated like scum, misrepresented as shameful beggars and this means that many scots feel irritated and frustrated.
The solution here is to know your friends and enemies. English people need educating, via social media…to reduce the distance between London and here, and get empathy going. I don’t see myself as a Second class citizen, just a first class ambassador for Scotland. And I quite like the shock on the faces of some people in the pub when I am introduced as ‘that SNP Englishman…’
Sorry Dr Jim, I just don’t buy it. You can claim you didn’t make clear what you felt; I think the problem is, that you made crystal clear what you felt. Now you’re trying to backtrack and cover it up. It won’t wash.
Dear Lord i’ve tried to explain this about 4 times now as have others
I’m not even going to bother anymore, deary me
I thought Nicola’s speech was excellent. I also saw some of the other speeches on resolutions such as TTIP and Trident. But I missed the one on land reform. Livestream did its best but crashed frequently and even now, doesn’t have the full speech by Nicola. No broadcaster in UK seems able to provide video of the speeches. !?
Should we be asking RT to provide a Scottish broadcasting service?
If anyone has a link would you pleae post it as I’d like to catch up.
Thanks.
@ Lollysmum @ Natasha and others
So sorry about the ethnic rubbish floating around today. I think it confirms the danger of black propaganda being taken seriously such as this recent survey on the VOW etc and perhaps some trolling going on.
Having said my piece earlier I will now treat it with the ‘ignoral’ it deserves!
Joemcg: I mentioned it before but just want to give you wingers an example of the “transient” issue. I have a Russian work colleague and he has moved from country to country in Europe for the last seven years working. He voted in September and has no intention of staying here. He has just helped to deny my country it’s independence and had no qualms. Do you think that is fair?
And by the same token, I, like thousands of others, was forced to seek work abroad. Had I stayed abroad and not returned to re-register, I’d have been pissed off excluded from voting. And I was born in Scotland and gave back to Scotland.
It might surprise those expressing impossibility over ex-pats voting that Salmond was in favour of it.
There are anomalies that will prevail next time around. They should be addressed. The alternative is we all wait in hope Westminster keeps maligning Scotland and alienates us all, or Scotland is given its independence back by a Westminster parliament dominated by SNP MPs holding sway in a coalition. Meanwhile, an aging population that hoped for self-governance all their life expect never to see it.
The best example of inclusion I saw was Glasgow for the vote among poor and disenfranchised of all classes and religions and ethnicity.
@dave robb & Alex Smith
Well said.
The folks I managed to bring onto Wings will be put off coming back. They do not comment but read every day and pass information onto others.
@Lollysmum
I would not pay attention to what a few individuals think. They damage their own cause, but they will refuse to see that unfortunately. I do not believe the vast majority of independence supporters would have any truck with their views on who should get the vote or not. I believe everyone who lives in Scotland should have the right to vote, regardless of nationality, or any other category like that.
Come on folks, play nice. Like I said earlier this is going round in circles.
Lollysmum and Natasha, I feel sorry that you have been offended.I enjoy both of your contributions and don’t want to lose any wingers. As far as I am concerned you are both welcome to Scotland.
Look, the referendum is over and we lost. First it wiz us auld yins that got the blame, although some of us did oor bit. Take our very own Robert Peffers, who does not keep in the best of health. Robert was out there we his camper van and his wee dug doing his damnedest for independence.
So lets just stop all this arguing for goodness sake. This poll that you seem to be bickering about is a waste of time. We ain’t fighting another referendum guys, it’s a general election. The timing of this poll, or whitever it is, is a bit off. we should all be happy at oor wee Nicola’s splendid speech today. It was a joy to listen to.
So lets just change the subject, there’s nae use cryin ower spilt milk. Save it for another time. Noo gies peace.
Right Mr Sulu, warp factor 10 this time.
@ Joemcg
Your colleague is resident in Scotland, else he would not have a vote. He is entitled to that vote, as much as I am, and yes, I do think that is fair.
I was proud of the decision we took about who could vote: it made sense to me in practical terms and it was also a decent reflection of the kind of inclusive society I hope to see.
I have no time or respect for ethnic nationalism: that is nothing to do with my reasons for wanting independence.
If you and some others here do wish to found a new Scotland on the basis of ethnicity, or even on your perception of who has the people’s interests at heart, that is your choice. We will not be on the same side after independence, and that is to be expected, for we do come together on this one issue and are bound to differ on others.
But I will not lie down under calls to achieve the goal through such methods. I profoundly disagree with all you have said, and I think that the case you have made is nothing more than the obverse of those in rUK who are calling for Scots to be denied equal representation in Westminster. It is not reasonable coming from them and it is not reasonable coming from you.
The end does not justify the means. The establishment thrives on divide and rule and if they are reading this site they will be happy today; for here we are discussing their agenda, though prior to the referendum we were, I think, broadly agreed about who should vote and the reasons for those rules. It is distasteful to seek to change those rules because you did not get your own way. It may be that you always disagreed with the arrangements made and I missed your posts about it in the past, and if that is the case I apologise for thinking that you did not make this argument then. I hope you did, for consistency in this is central to how I perceive your position.
Clearly there are reasons for suggesting that only those with a commitment to a fair and prosperous future should be allowed a say: but equally clearly everyone would claim to share that goal. Those scots born and raised and intent on staying in this country, who yet voted no, believe that they are acting to achieve that, just as much as you do. I see no reason to think that those who were not born and raised in this country see it any differently at all.
Yet your position is based on an idea that such people are insincere or careless in deciding how to vote. I do not believe that for a moment. Obviously there may be some few who have no investment in the future of this country and who vote for narrow personal reasons which may or may not make sense. Many here have said that if they were resident in a foreign country, and did not intend to stay, they would not vote there: I have no reason at all to suppose that those who live amongst us who are in those circumstances see it any differently, for the most part. Why would they care and why would they vote? Are they inherently less “decent”? Is there some other explanation? Do we even know what percentage of those people did vote?
Maybe you are right about your Russian friend, but if you are he must have given you some explanation as to why he exercised his right to vote if he does not intend to stay. What was that explanation? You said earlier that he had not been in Scotland for very long, and I asked you where he lived before. I asked because he could not have a vote in the timescale you outlined unless his previous residence was in rUK. Does he intend to make his life in rUK? If he does does that not give him a right to both a vote and an opinion? If not, why not?
We need to persuade no voters of every stripe that we have a good case which they can support. That does not depend on nationality or ethnicity and I think we do have such a case and can win this argument on its merits.
I want no part of the discrimination you are supporting, as I see it. I do not want to live in a country which others those it sees as foreign, and that is part of my reason for supporting independence.
Hey Joe, tae think last night in an exchange wi me…you said you could see the implications…and now you have just jumped right back in…please just get over yer pal’s decision…I had to get over my mother’s.
This is alienating nonsense. Not just to those on ‘our side’ but to swathes of those people who have come to live here and who voted Yes.
Scunnered. (Spare me…the ’emotional’ argument guff too…if I had lived somewhere for most of my life and considered it my home, I too would feel the ‘hurt’ of some of these comments…insensitive doesn’t even touch some your ‘opinions’).
Who is Scottish? Anybody who lives and works here and considers that this is their home, who contributes to our wealth and wellbeing, and who is a democrat.
I have friends who I consider misguided because they voted No, but they are democrats and would have accepted the result if it had gone the other way. We can’t start talking about being born Scots without being seen as chauvinists, or worse.
Anyway, and practically, there is no way of checking such things so just forget it and concentrate on swinging 5% to the YES side.
No more arguing about who is Scottish please.
Natasha:
I’m not accusing Grousebeater, Dr Jim or Manandboy of being trolls – just pricks.
I guess in Natasha’s ‘inclusive’ Scotland that means pricks will not be allowed to vote next time around.
“Would most ex-pats vote No?” Probably. The ones I know are so out of touch with what Scotland has become they cannot relate to what is going on – and most of them have never heard of Wings etc.
As regards voting rights. The line needs to be drawn somewhere and that somewhere is where it is the “most” fair. One example of a Russian in transit does not make an argument just as one swallow does not make a summer. There will always be examples to suit a purpose, but its about overall fairness and not just what suits our preferred outlook.
It would be nice to see some conciliatory posts as it has been a real shame to see people alienated from a cause close to their hearts on such a day that should be about looking forward not back.
What a toxic issue this is. Wish I could locate the interview where AS gave a big sigh when asked how it was decided who would get a referendum vote (this was well after Sept 18th), and he said it was the single biggest headache they had.
There is no pat solution to this conundrum – if a living fossil, who happens to be English/Welsh/Russian/Whatever, has been granted a vote and uses it to vote No, or for UKIP, BNP etc, s/he is no more or less to blame than the feart Glasgow-born-and-bred old-dear who’s had Slab at the door threatening to collect her pension book on Sep 19th, or the dunderheid who’s always voted Labour because his grandparents did.
We all know non-Scots who were eligible to vote – we were glad of the support of those who voted Yes, but that doesn’t entitle us to castigate those who didn’t. Likewise, I suspect we all know people (Scots or not) who see themselves as inherently superior to the proles (i.e. the rest of us) and whose support of the Union is based on little more than rank snobbery. That snobbery casts the vast majority of us as ‘second-class citizens’ whether we like it or not, protest about it or not – or are even aware of it.
Remember one thing friends – words are awkward bloody things to use at the best of times, and when it comes to certain topics they can be worse than useless.
Fireproofjim and Nana, I couldn’t agree more, very disappointed with this incessant back and forth, on a subject which is bound to play right into the hands of our critics.
Just back from the SNP conference, met a few wingers there.
What a great event. If there’s as much activity behind that energy as I could feel, then we just need to keep it up for another wee while and we’ll get a record number of SNP Mp’s in May..
Good to see new PPC’s Kirsten Oswald and Phil Boswell there, remember to say Hi to Stewart Mc K from me Kirsten.
🙂
Lollysmum and Natasha,
I am one of those Scots overseas and, much as I would love to come home, I am trapped by the current financial climate – house I can’t sell etc.. I felt no resentment at having no referendum vote, as I am not currently contributing to Scotland or directly affected by what happens there (much as I would like to be). If I had been given the chance I would have voted Yes.
I believe that the enfranchisement of ‘the people of Scotland’ regardless of origin was the right thing.The only exception I would have made was of those not normally resident there, for example foreign students who are only there in term-time and who will leave as soon as they graduate. To me, they do not have a stake in the country or envisage a future there and should, therefore, not shape Scotland’s future. Their exclusion may have been the case, I do not know. If, however, they choose after graduation to live and work in Scotland they are, in my view, people of Scotland.
Please do not allow anyone to make you feel that you are second-class because you are not born and bred Scots. At the moment you, Natasha, are more of a Scottish person than I am and I do not grudge it you one little bit, though I may envy you. This discord has, I believe, been sown deliberately and cynically by those who, frightened by the possibility of a Scotland united in opposition to the status quo, seek to set the people of Scotland against each other. Sadly, it seems to have had some success. Divide and conquer was ever the way of the Empire.
Lollysmum and Natasha,
I am one of those Scots overseas and, much as I would love to come home, I am trapped by the current financial climate – house I can’t sell etc.. I felt no resentment at having no referendum vote, as I am not currently contributing to Scotland or directly affected by what happens there (much as I would like to be). If I had been given the chance I would have voted Yes.
I believe that the enfranchisement of ‘the people of Scotland’ regardless of origin was the right thing.The only exception I would have made was of those not normally resident there, for example foreign students who are only there in term-time and who will leave as soon as they graduate. To me, they do not have a stake in the country or envisage a future there and should, therefore, not shape Scotland’s future. Their exclusion may have been the case, I do not know. If, however, they choose after graduation to live and work in Scotland they are, in my view, people of Scotland.
Please do not allow anyone to make you feel that you are second-class because you are not born and bred Scots. At the moment you, Natasha, are more of a Scottish person than I am and I do not grudge it you one little bit, though I may envy you. This discord has, I believe, been sown deliberately and cynically by those who, frightened by the possibility of a Scotland united in opposition to the status quo, seek to set the people of Scotland against each other. Sadly, it seems to have had some success. Divide and conquer was ever the way of the Empire.
@dave robb says: 28 March, 2015 at 7:01 pm:
“I seldom contribute to discussion – while regularly reading several times a day.”
May I suggest, Dave, that you should post much more often?
“After 45 years avoiding joining a political party because of the need to accept things I could not agree to, I finally joined the Scottish NATIONAL Party after the referendum. Finally, one issue became more important than my concerns about individual issues. I did not join a NATIONALIST party on grounds of race, ethnic origin, or accident of birthplace, but the NATIONAL party to deliver for Scotland – all of its people – even those with whom I disagree.
A point I’ve made on more than a few occasions on the internet, Dave, but never thought I’d need to remind people who support the National government of Scotland that the , “N”, in, “SNP”, is the initial for the term, “National”.
Stuart may be on holiday. Something happened today which ought to overshadow some of the minor issue of what is “Scottish” compared to what Scotland could be.
And the Hampden like roar that, “The something”, got from conference delegates was a well deserved ovation for the leader of The NATIONAL party of Scotland.
“Look to the future – see the vision – aim higher!”
Well said that man
Lollysmum and Natasha, please stay engaged with this site. These guys have their opinion…fair enough.I do not believe their view represents the vast majority of our movement. I value your contributions far more as you are open. Grousebeater I’m afraid also grates on me at times also.
Canny believe how many folks on here have taken the Establishment bait on voting rights, hook, line, and sinker. Always thought we were too streetwise for this bull!!
Fiona, honestly it’s not my intention to upset you or anybody else on here. It’s just my point of view. Their are a lot of emotional issues surrounding wanting your own country to be independent especially in the unique position Scotland finds itself in being governed by another “foreign” to me, country in my eyes. Don’t really understand why you and others on here think that morally it was acceptable that my Russian work friend denied my lifetime ambition of seeing my country independent.
Snode 1965 says:
“@manandboy, don’t agree on expats getting a vote. Every expat I know would have voted No, couldnt understand why so many of us could back a Yes vote. They no longer contribute to our social or financial fabric, therefore can butt out.”
I am an expat who lives near Frankfurt and I am an SNP member. If I had had the chance to vote in the Ref. I would have voted YES. So now you know at least one.
I also know of know of about a dozen scots who live here in Germany and they are also YESSERS.
At the last Highland Games in Rüsselsheim (yes we’ve got them here too!) last September, every Scot that I met – from the Borders to the Highlands – was for YES.
You also seem to have forgotten a certain Panda who resides in France and won’t be very happy if you thought of him as a NO-body. 😉
Business for Scotland also has members who are expats if I remember correctly.
Dr Jim: Dear Lord i’ve tried to explain this about 4 times now as have others I’m not even going to bother anymore, deary me.
You did fine. It’s those in denial that make the problem. And those who restrict what can be discussed and call it free speech.
The colonisation of Scotland covers all institutions and funds and land ownership and powers bases. We strive to regain our country in order to create an inclusive society because it sure as hell doesn’t exist now.
Till next time…