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Quoted for truth #37

Posted on December 02, 2013 by

Professor James Mitchell of Edinburgh University, 2 December 2013:

“Under what circumstances would a UK Government (or Scottish for that matter) incline towards cooperation or conflict in its relations with its neighbour? The key is motivations.

Nobody should expect either Government to be motivated by good will. London will owe Scotland nothing and Edinburgh will owe London nothing.  Self-interest will dictate behaviour. Neither Government will act against its own self-interest but neither will act spitefully unless it wants to inflict harm on itself long-term.”

“It is in the UK’s self-interest to portray relations with an independent Scotland on this side of the referendum as highly contentious and difficult but its interests will immediately change on the other side of a referendum if Scotland votes Yes.

Scotland may be small in comparison to rUK but losing Scotland will be a blow to the UK’s prestige. Drawing attention to what is now described as a major rupture in UK politics will no more be in the UK’s than Scotland’s interests.  Both Governments will need to convey continuity and stability.

While politicians regard themselves as powerful, none is as powerful as the financial markets. The lesson of the last few years should be obvious to one and all. No state, no matter how mighty, is capable of taking on such powerful economic forces that brought the world economy to its knees. 

Both Governments will seek to convince the money markets that all will be well, stability is maintained and relations will be good. That pressure may be ignored during the campaign but it will concentrate minds in Edinburgh and London powerfully after a Yes vote.”

(Our emphasis.)

Blair McDougall of “Better Together”, of course, takes the opposite view. Decide for yourself which of those gentlemen’s analyses should be accorded the most trust.

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    93 to “Quoted for truth #37”

    1. Any retribution against Scotland for voting YES would be viewed by the international community, who are watching our referendum with great interest, as an undemocratic & against the wishes of Scots.  Its so obvious that any ‘rattles oot the pram’ threats are simply not credible. The one thing the UK likes to portray to the world is that it is a democratic country.  Before and After statements will be complete opposites.

    2. Murray McCallum says:

      I could imagine the spin from Westminster in the event of a Yes vote being that we are simply renewing and updating the ties between Scotland and England for the 21st century. A £Sterling zone and open trading relations will provide transparency to what each country contributes to these Islands.
       
      This spin may just suit Scotland too.

    3. seoc says:

      If/ when Scotland takes get independence, there can be no UK.

      The implications of this is vast, for example – all the co.uk internet addresses will need changing as will so many other ideas.

      The major change will need to be in the Westminster mindset, coping with their shrunken fiefdom and attendant loss of (imaginary) prestige.

    4. HandandShrimp says:

      Real politik will take precedent. It always does. Look at the kicking Cameron is taking over his Chinese visit but ultimately whether it is Cameron or Milliband or Salmond a PM must take into account trade, markets and economic growth. 30% of the UK debt is owned by overseas investors/governments. One does not rock boats unecessarily because the consequences can be disproportionate to the initial issue. Blair’s suggestion that Westminster will simply wait to impoverish and destroy an inependent Scotland is standard Better Together fare but not one that will make a lot od sense in the FCO.
       
      The two countries would, especially if both in the EU, more often than not be in accord on many issues. One of the most pressing reasons on the English side for the 1707 Union (and one which they were willing to bribe the nobles and merchants who had lost money on Darien) was to secure their northern border. A Scotland that is in NATO and co-operating on defence issues and prepared to put 4 frigates and a couple of OPVs into the North Atlantic would be a better friend than foe because that six times the number the UK is deploying at the moment.

    5. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I’m sure we can all put up with another ten months of McDougall’s nonsense, so long as, come Sep 19th, he goes back to sorting out Africa.

    6. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      Although things/proirities will change after a Yes vote, it might be deployed as a tactic to play hardball to try and maximise ones bargaining position during subsequent negotiations. However I expect that both sides could play it that way and the whole thing could get bogged down. That is not to say that the NO camp are hyping up the neagtivity before the vote to try and frighten off the voters

    7. Andrew Morton says:

      O/T There is a fine stooshie going on on Eddi Reader’s Facebook page. There a Labour choob lambasting her and getting a kicking from everyone else. Interestingly Eddi’s opened up about stuff which Margit said in the Green Room afterwards which suggests that she herself doesn’t believe a lot of the stuff she’s been coming out with.

    8. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      Slightly OT Stu, one the main reasons Westminster don’t want Independence is confirmed by NIECS (National Institute of Economics and Social Research) London.
      “Why Scottish Independence may significantly increase UK debt burden”.
      “Scotland’s debt burden will be lower than the UK’s in all cases”.
      That doesn’t even consider Scotland’s share of joint assets!!!
      I’m sure you could write a great article about that Stu.   

    9. HandandShrimp says:

      There is an entertaining article in the Guardian written by a Northerner who wants the Scottish border moved south of Blackpool. As one might imagine it has met with mixed opinons (to put it mildly). I have not expressed an opinion as I don’t think it is really my place to comment on what is in effect a point about the alienation of the north of England from the elite in the corridors of power. However I am getting a tad concerned because the calls for border movement are shifting ever further south. At this rate the whole of the UK will simply be renamed Scotland and we will be back to square one 😉  

    10. mogabee says:

      It will become more and more obvious as time progresses that there will be benefits to rUK agreeing with currency union, it’s happening already with people in finance pointing out the dangers if currency union appears to be ruled out by “hi-heedies” in Westminster!
       
      At the end of the day pragmatic government comes to the rescue….

    11. mogabee says:

      HandandShrimp
      Man, that’s exactly what I was thinking after reading that piece….

    12. MajorBloodnok says:

      @mogabee says: At the end of the day pragmatic government comes to the rescue…
       
      (Though not if Alistair Darling has anything to do with it).

    13. muttley79 says:

      What has happened to Derek Bateman’s blog?  It has disappeared.  He said something about someone taking possible legal action against him a few months ago.

    14. mogabee says:

      Major
        If ever a man was unfairly named…Darling…!

    15. rabkae says:

      Only a fool would believe that the circumstances as described will not become the reality in the event of a Yes.
       
      Que Darling…
       
      O/T Derek Bateman blog(s) have vanished from WordPress site. :-0
      Pity….

    16. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @muttley79 –
       
      Well, Bateman’s blog hasn’t been going very long. Could it be a vengeful Boothman?

    17. steviecosmic says:

      I’ve been saying this for ages. The markets will dictate the tone of the rhetoric, and I have a feeling that things will change pretty soon. The UK government simply cant continue to be seen to be acting against it’s own self interests beyond a certain point, and I think that comes along when it’s obvious to all that the tide is turning to Yes. 

    18. Seanair says:

      Andrew Morton,
      Sorry but I can’t find a link to this (cyber eedjit that I am). Any help or even a paraphrase of Magrit’s latest outpourings?
      Thanks

    19. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If Bateman’s blog has been done down by the Beeb then we’re in for the Mother of All Stushies.

    20. James Kelly says:

      I hope Derek Bateman’s disappearance is only temporary.  We really need him to keep going – and even if his existing posts were to be restored, that would be hugely valuable.  He’s been a breath of fresh air.

    21. @Ian Brotherhood says
       
      I’m sure we can all put up with another ten months of McDougall’s nonsense, so long as, come Sep 19th, he goes back to sorting out Africa.
       
      I would send him to Fukushima to plug the the holes in the leaky tanks certainly not Africa.

    22. Andrew Morton says:

      @Seanair
       
      Just type in Eddi Reader in the Search box and you’ll find that the thread is about the second one down, illustrated by a large photo of young Scots in tartan hats. The posts about Margit are about 6 hours ago.

    23. Edward says:

      Slightly O/T
      I’m sure you have all heard about the ‘biggest UK trade delegation’ going to China and no doubt feeling all warm and fuzzy inside at the thought
      The media are certainly getting ‘moist’ at the news
      Its a pity then that the delegation , actually doesn’t represent the UK as a whole (are we all paying for it?)
      The full list appeared in today’s Guardian. http://archive.is/VGb2K
      You would be hard pressed to find any Scottish companies, actually you wont find any
      Apart from a company based in Co Tyrone Northern Ireland, they are all based in England
      and includes such organisations as Arts Council England, The National Theatre (London) and the English Premier League
      The UK Government have issued a detailed list here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/262561/Business-delegation-to-China.pdf

    24. M4rkyboy says:

      I was loving Derek Bateman’s blogs.I was checking them every day.

    25. BJH80 says:

      Isn’t Blair McDougall’s comment more about what will happen between any Yes vote and the actual separation, though? It’s irritating that all this scaremongering over the use of Sterling, etc, is allowed to go unchallenged in the media; realpolitik will demand that England works towards having a successful, secure partnership with a strong, non-basket-case neighbour to the north. That doesn’t mean they won’t do anything at all, underhand if necessary, to ensure they get the best possible ‘divorce settlement’ post-vote, pre-separation. (For a semi-reasonable comparison, think post-apartheid South Africa selling off the family silver before power was actually handed over to the ANC.)

    26. Edward says:

      I get e-mail feed from Derek Bateman, the last blog was yesterday
      It does seem strange that the site has gone down, with the comment that it was closed by the author
      Either it has come under a DOS attack, or he forgot to pay his annual sub, or something different

    27. Jimbo says:

      “The one thing the UK likes to portray to the world is that it is a democratic country.”
       
      I agree, Anne. To the world they pretend that they’re pro democracy for all countries – and they’ll fight to bring democracy to people in those countries they deem to be undemocratic. But what they like to portray and true democracy at home in this busted UK are poles apart.
       
      If everything was as grand in the UK as they like to make it out to be they wouldn’t have to threaten, bully, intimidate, sneer at, smear and scare-monger their own citizens on such a large scale because they want something better. People would be clamouring to stay, instead of seeking independence in their quest to build a different, fairer, better and more prosperous Scotland.

    28. Macart says:

      Of course its where the whole premise of the no campaign falls down. All the fear, all the uncertainty, the palling about with big bad contributors, dodgy support groups, think tanks commissioned to paint the blackest picture possible and it comes down to being pure bollocks.
       
      People aren’t inherently evil (unless they work for certain areas of the media or run the Better Together campaign), yes they do what’s best for themselves, but on the whole people worldwide, never mind next door just want to cut along with each other. The picture painted by the dark side of the force is that of an entirely hostile and intransigent government, hell bent on destroying Scotland for no sane reason….. oh wait.
       
      I’ll rephrase: The picture painted by the dark side of the force is that of an entirely hostile and intransigent government, hell bent on destroying Scotland even against their own best interests and that of their electorates’. Joking aside, it defies all logic and common sense. The truly evil acts belong to those who would spread such fear and social division.

    29. Mary Bruce says:

      I wonder if the Derek Bateman blog disappearing has anything to do with Rev Stu’s worries?
      Can we expect more pro-indy sites to disappear?
      This is a worrying development.

    30. WND says:

      Mary Bruce –
       
      Rev Stu has just confirmed in a previous thread that the issue he’s experiencing has no connection to the Wings site.
       
      I’m pretty sure we’ll discover the reason for the Bateman blogs disappearing before too long.  Certainly hope so.

    31. HandandShrimp says:

      Are both of Derek’s blogs down? The original one where he really let his satirical hair down was a joy to read. The more serious one was, well more serious, but still very good.

    32. Mary Bruce says:

      o/t Has anyone seen this: “Britain can no longer afford welfare state” says Osborne.
       
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/10487295/Autumn-Statement-2013-Britain-can-no-longer-afford-welfare-state-warns-Osborne.html
       
      The yes team can take a day off, relax, put their feet up. Osborne, Cameron and Boris are doing all their work for them.

    33. WND says:

      HandandShrimp –
      Both gone.

    34. desimond says:

      Having to smile through the pain here….guy on phone to a colleague and lambasting “THEY” Scots and their want away idiocy. One of his arguments was “They’re wanting to destroy manufacturing by losing Navy contracts (wait there’s more!) …who the hell’s gonna build their submarines eh?”

      With his fully paid up membership to the Lib Dem Party, i should really be surprised.

    35. Andy-B says:

      Wise words from Professor Mitchell, and more to the point, truthful, BT and the Westminster Government, wont confirm or deny co-operation with the SNP just now, as expected, but as the good professor points out, it will be all to play for after a YES vote.
       
      Of course the Secretary of State for Portsmouth, Alistair Carmichael, and the head of the BT camp, I never saw the 2008 crash coming, Alistair Darling know fine well a currency union will be the only way to stablise the pound in the rUK and an independent Scotland.
       
      O/T I do apologise.
       
      Lord Monckton head of the UKIP branch in Scotland has been sacked by Nigel Farage, the UKIP leader, Monckton who infamously coinned the phrase (Subsidy Junkie) almost certainly referring to Scots, has been temporarily replaced, by former deputy Misty Thackeray.

    36. MajorBloodnok says:

      @desimond
       
      Was it Alistair Carmichael’s SPAD?

    37. James Kelly says:

      The other one is still up at this address –
      http://derekbateman2.wordpress.com/
      I suppose other potential innocent explanations are that he’s changing the blog’s address, or that he’s been offered a job that requires him to return to being politically neutral.  I just hope we find out one way or another.

    38. Seanair says:

      Xander and Andrew Morton,

      Thank you for your help. Enjoyed ER’s path to independence, but disappointed about the vagueness of MC. Perhaps you had to be there to feel her pain!

      Must be lots of Labour supporters however who are saying to themselves “why are we in cahoots with the Tories and LibDems to stay in the Union when all the Socialist parties are against it and there is a Labour for Indy groundswell?”

    39. James Kelly says:

      Ah, that’s it exactly!  Derek’s blog has moved to this new address –
       
      http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/
       
      Panic over.

    40. chalks says:

      Eddi Reader really is quite naive eh?
      Jesus, reading about Curran’s take on a Labour manifesto for Yes…’we must get on it, we must’
      FUCK OFF.
       
      Then Curran apparently said that Scotland isn’t as right wing as it thinks…let’s find out Mag’s.
      Someone needs to tell Eddi Reader about Labour for Indy.
       
      Being offered Carmichael’s holiday home?? Fit? Was this the Unionist ploy to get back onside….

    41. I’m not sure Osborne and Balls have thought through the implications of their threats of a currency union being “highly unlikely” because if the Scottish Government called their bluff and announced a plan B to create their own currency after a Yes vote, it would have a devastating effect on sterling and would see it plummet overnight.

    42. Oneironaut says:

      @James Kelly
      He certainly doesn’t sound politically neutral there! 🙂
       
      It actually wouldn’t surprise me if the No lot were trying to shut down pro-independence sites on the Net.

      I won’t go into the whole thing about the danger that free speech and easy access to unbiased news sources poses to the “rich elite” of the world and their ambitions that would happily involve selling all of us and our grannies if they could get away with it.

      America’s repeated and increasingly desperate attempts to sneak the whole SOPA thing through, as well as Cameron’s plan to follow China’s example and put up a massive firewall that blocks anything they don’t want people to see, are just examples of attempts to get rid of the inconvenience that the internet represents to these people and their multi-billionaire cronies.

      (Certainly puts a new slant on Cameron’s relationship with China anyway…  “What new tips do you have for me this week on how to build your own DIY Dictatorship?”)
       
      Anyways, even the No campaign have probably figured out by now that they really don’t have a coherent argument to put forward for staying in the UK.  So the only way they can realistically have a hope of winning the argument is to shut up the opposition.  Discredit or silence any voices that dare to speak against them.

      It’s at this time that the increasing popularity of a site like Wings can be a bonus, since it would be difficult (if not impossible) to quietly shut this place down and hope no-one notices… 😉

    43. caz-m says:

      The Chinese have told David Cameron that they will build HS2 rail link from the middle of England to London for him, along with their new nuclear power station in south-west England which will make a lot of investors in London VERY rich.

      These massive infrastructure projects in England will be part funded by China and UK/Scottish taxpayers money. It will also make a lot of rich folk in the City of London even richer.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10487669/Chinese-premier-Li-Leqiang-wants-to-help-build-HS2.html

    44. Looks like DB2 has moved this one ‘No change please …We’re British’ onto DB1.

    45. Jimbo says:

      “Looks like DB2 has moved this one ‘No change please …We’re British’ onto DB1.”
       
      Got a link please, CH. I can’t access DB1 or DB2 at all.

    46. Leighton Sinclair, says:

      Small point of order but pretty sure James Mitchell is a prof at Strathclyde not Edinburgh, at least he was when I studied there.

    47. Murray McCallum says:

      Derek Bateman has been doing some renaming. No deletions here.
      http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/

    48. seoc says:

      An opportunity to correct a centuries old historical deliberate error will soon arise.
      Scotland can insist on the Head of State of the independent Scotland being accurately known as ER 1

    49. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Small point of order but pretty sure James Mitchell is a prof at Strathclyde not Edinburgh, at least he was when I studied there.”

      He’s moved.

    50. scottish_skier says:

      Bateman:
       
       We entered a dimly lit corridor and I saw his face. It was Mundell. He caught  my look and said: Surprised? I’m really one of yours. Have been all along. Who’d do you think got Moore sacked?He pushed me into a waiting car and as he held the door said: There are more of us inside the machine. Why do think the message is so negative? Does anybody think that will work…
       
      LOL. Or maybe not actually satire…

    51. chalks says:

      Satire or not, they do not have the balls to come out in favour, therefore they are irrelevant.

    52. Morag says:

      He’s put the satirical article on both blogs.  He wasn’t kidding about being a bit un-techie.

    53. wullie says:

      Oneironaut says:
      Been to China. I was there earlier this year, no restrictions on the net as far as I could see. I could go to any site I wanted to, was on wings every day people I met and talked with could do the same. Like us they can travel anywhere in the world providing they can afford it. I have never met such charming, happy, delightful, cheery, helpful people in my life, repressed, depressed, naw. I dare say they have their problems, never saw any food banks, they retire at 55 civil service pension is 90% of final salary, a workie is on 60% of final salary all of this is being equalised.

      As for HS2 the Chinese would think nothing of it, the distance would be tiny in comparison with what they have constructed in China Beijing to Shanghai a distance longer than the UK, 50 trains each way, christ I could go on.

      Aye those nasty commies, they make us look stupid all day every day

    54. scottish_skier says:

      Satire or not, they do not have the balls to come out in favour, therefore they are irrelevant.
       
      That’s not quite what I was getting at. There’s a difference between really wanting something and not wanting it but helping it happen as it’s going to anyway so better it happens smoothly. 

    55. caz-m says:

      Carmicheal, Sarwar and company discussing the helicopter crash in House of Commons on BBC Parliament at the moment.

    56. chalks says:

      @scottish-skier
      You are living in dreamland, these guys are against Indy, their pay packet goes with it.

    57. caz-m says:

      Helicopter crash being discussed in HoC on BBC Parliament.

    58. scottish_skier says:

      You are living in dreamland, these guys are against Indy, their pay packet goes with it.
       
      In what way would a Tory MP with a safe seat in England be affected by Scottish independence financially? Same would apply for Labour. It’s only Scottish unionist politicians that are looking at potential P45s.

    59. caz-m says:

      @Wullie

      Regarding the Chinese and HS2 etc.. the point being made was that Scotland gains absolutely nothing out of these massive projects.

      The UK Government just want us diddy Scots to shut up and pay up with their income tax to help fund it.

      This will be happening at the same time as reductions to the Scottish block grant of some £4 Billion pounds will be taking effect.

    60. tony o'neill says:

      Sorry to be o/t, but i have just been informed by  my friends daughter who is studying mdoern studies at st benedicts high school in linnwood renfrewshire and who is elegible to vote in the referendum,that her teacher is telling every one in the class to vote no.The class are discussing the referendum but it  seems the teacher and the school are not letting any one put up the yes position,i dont know if the teacher’s  and schools behaviour is legal,but it certainly isnt democratic,this young lass made us aware of this development as she thaught it wasnt right and was taotaly biased in favour of the no side.If this kind of brain washing is happening in other schools i think there should be some kind of investigation.I intend to contact the principle of st benedicts and renfrewshire council to complain,it also presents the possibility of other state schools including catholic ones else where getting up to the samebehaviour.This in my opinion is worth a fuller investigation by wings and other investigative news sites and citizen journalists,might i suggest that all readers ask their kids neices and nephews etc how and if their schools and teachers are dealing with this very important matter.It beggars beliefe that teachers and schools and educational unions could be complicit in trying to sway these young scots against making a proper balanced educated decision in the referendum.

    61. Seasick Dave says:

      Tony
       
      We have the same problem at my daughter’s school and I will be looking into it tomorrow to find out the best way to approach it.
       
      It has got to the level where the teachers have been making insulting comments about Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.
       
      Luckily there is time to do something about it.

    62. tony o'neill says:

      Hi dave thanks for your input,we cannot let this blatant brainwashing in the schools go un challenged,Now i dont have a propblem if the kids vote no but no way should it be because of union supporting teachers and schools,it should be done purely on a balanced and unbiased way they should be given information from both sides equaly,and if not this should go all the way up to the education secretary.

    63. caz-m says:

      Hi Tony

      Well done for highlighting yet another high school that is feeding the kids negative propaganda regarding the referendum.

      I will be contacting a councillor on Renfrewshire Council regarding this school.

      This has to be checked all over Scotland.

    64. Dcanmore says:

      @Tony O’Neill and Seasick Dave
       
      Head teachers don’t like bad publicity inflicting their schools, if anything it brings their professionalism into question especially in front of other parents, so I suggest you write a complaining and questioning letter to the head teacher asking for an explanation, and if this is not satisfactory then write to the local newspaper exposing the situation and continue to demand answers from the school or educational authority.

      I think this is a story that can be exposed by NNS.

    65. tony o'neill says:

      Caz-m thanks,i also think it would be anidea to ask all the kids if they will be citizen journalists and find out whats realy going on in our schools,they should be thourghly encouraged to challenge these teachers and schools  about their and biased and undemocratic behaviour.

    66. Edward says:

      Regarding the schools this should be investigated and I think you need to involve other blogs/groups to investigate. Its about making everyone aware
      What is happening is disgraceful, but these schools /unions involved are relying on it not surfacing . But we have the internet and that is our strength

    67. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      tony o’neil at 5.19
      We have had four reports from parents that the same thing has been happening at Dunoon Grammar school

    68. Seasick Dave says:

      I want to be circumspect about this as my daughter is sitting her final exams and I don’t want any backlash from any teachers that make the connection between my complaint and my daughter.
       
      I will report back on what I can find out tomorrow…

    69. kininvie says:

      I posted the electoral commissions guidelines on this matter on a previous thread. They are well worth reading, and a useful tool if you are suspicious of bias in schools:
       
      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/157328/Scottish-referendum-education-briefing-June-2013.pdf
       
      In addition, here is the Curriculum for Excellence briefing on Political Literacy:
       
      http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/Images/CfEBriefing14_tcm4-813894.pdf
       
      I’ve extracted this quote from it: As such, they (‘practitioners/teachers)  take particular care not to promote any particular political view at the expense of others. They are also well versed in ensuring a balanced approach to exploring political issues by providing a blend of learning experiences over time which is demonstrably impartial.
       
      Finally, here is an article about Edinburgh City Council reminding teachers they had to be neutral:
       
      http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-be-neutral-teachers-warned-1-2952940
       
      I think there’s enough ammunition there to give complaints substance. School – Local Authority –  General Teaching Council: All should be informed when there is breach of neutrality.

    70. Jeannie says:

      Briefing from Association of Directors of Education (ADES) re the referendum.
       
      http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/Images/PoliticalliteracyReferendum140613_tcm4-809528.pdf

    71. liz says:

      @tony – this seems to be a worrying trend which has to be stopped.
       
      I used to teach and now work part time as a lecturer in FE.
       
      In the college I’m in there has been an indy debate and although I wasn’t involved I asked the students how it went – all were very non-commital and were saying things like -I just went along with everyone, couldn’t be bothered discussing it in class etc.
       
      These are a bit older 18/19 but I think the ones who will vote just want to keep it private.
       
      The schools are different cos the pupils are younger – all teachers have to follow a set of professional rules – standard for full registration etc.
      There might be something in that about political neutrality.
       
      I’m going to email the GTC as I’m still a member to ask about that – will get back with their reply.

    72. caz-m says:

      Tony

      No wonder BBC Scotland and Better Together confidently tell us that the 16-18 yr old age group consistently vote NO in referendum trial votes that are held throughout schools in Scotland.

      They know that the EIS Union (with a nod and a wink) will make sure that the pupils are given all the information they need for the up and coming referendum in sept 2014.

      It’s a pity that all the information they are getting is from the NO campaign.

    73. tony o'neill says:

      Gosh, it seems that going by your responses that this may be an even bigger propblem than i thaught,and if so it definately needs investigated and challenged by all right minded citizens.

    74. Rev, good to see you back in the saddle.

    75. tony o'neill says:

      Caz,you maybe onto something,why are so so confident that the kids are all against independence unless they know the kids are being groomed to think negatively,i also think the culprits should be sacked.It also calls into question in my own opinion of the stance of catholic run public schools and therfore perceived interferance from the catholic church in the referendum debate.And before i get acused of being anti catholic or any thing like that i am definately not.What im definately against is our educators brainwashing and lying to our children in any and all schools to me that is also child abuse.

    76. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      tony o’neill
      You’ll find little or no Catholic Church interference in the independence debate. Cardinal Gordon Gray was an SNP member. Cardinal Thomas Winning was a close acquaintance of Alex Salmond who had a weekly column in the most popular Catholic newspaper. I have known many priests who support the SNP
      What however you will find is Catholic teachers in many schools are Labour supporters and the EIS is dominated by Labour so many of them may be peddling a Labour line. When I went for a promotion as a teacher in Lanarkshire I was taken aside by well meaning friends,already promoted, and told that unless I joined the local Labour Party my chances of promotion were very slim indeed.
      As was indeed the case

    77. theycan'tbeserious says:

      Heads should roll! As I mentioned earlier, and got from another thread, a lot of teachers are preaching “NO” as they are still affiliated with labour and obviously towing the party line. One would hope that those responsible for teaching our children would be intelligent enough to question and qualify the information they are giving their students.  So if it’s not done through blissful ignorance it is therefore blatant propaganda and an abuse of power!
       
      We must now ask questions of the unions/political influence on it’s members and how that influence impacts on the members professionalism. Is this acceptable or compatible in the education profession? Now I’m not sure it is!

    78. tony o'neill says:

      Dave, its simply not the case that the catholic church dont try and interfere with politics in scotland,gay marriage for example.

    79. clochoderic says:

      Are you Tony O’Neill of Chou Pahrot fame?
       
        A Castle boay.

    80. tony o'neill says:

      Clochoderic no m8.

    81. clochoderic says:

      Tony you can get in touch with the local Yes organiser – I can supply his phone number or you can  try via the Yes website. I will tell my neighbours about your news – their son is a senior at Saint Benny’s.
       
       I predict a riot when his mother hears this ….

    82. chalks says:

      @Scottish_skier
      In what way would a Tory MP with a safe seat in England be affected by Scottish independence financially? Same would apply for Labour. It’s only Scottish unionist politicians that are looking at potential P45s.
       
      Er, we are speaking about Scottish Unionist MP’s….Mundell is a Scottish Tory MP

    83. Seasick Dave says:

      I have been in touch with the Electoral Commission, Education Scotland, the Scottish Government and the local council Education department regarding guidelines for the presentation of Referendum material in schools and it would appear that there isn’t any although Education Scotland seemed to think that there might be some in the future.
       
      The local council suggested that I get in touch with the head teacher to suggest that the subject be presented in an unbiased manner.
       
      I will do this tomorrow and report back! I will probably also contact my MSP.
       
      It doesn’t sound, though, that there are many tools at our disposal at present, which is a disappointment.
       
      Its a real shame that these teachers have no vision for the childrens’ future and would prefer to see them grow up under Westminster rule.

    84. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      tony o’neil
       
      That is not interfering wth politics as such. That is expressing the church’s view on a issue,as has the Church of Scotland and churches in England. That is acceptable.

      The churches and many of their adherents are of course mixing up a moral issue with an issue of legality. They are not the same thing.
       
      The gay marriage issue can of course be distorted by suggesting it is a Scotland only issue whereas virtually the same process is going on in the rest of the UK 

    85. STARLAW says:

      I am of the opinion that politicising children in school is illegal . sure I remember a teacher telling me that during a class debate many years ago . He told us he would be jailed if he told us how we should vote

    86. tony o'neill says:

      Just been on to st benedicts high school in linnwood regarding the referendum discussions in their modern studies class.Didnt get to speak to the head master yet just his secretary,who proceeded to discuss our conversation with what it seemed as co workers in the room,to which i managed to over hear one of the persons present say”whats it got to do with him any way”.Their cheekhas just made my blood boil,strait onto the council now to complaign.

    87. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Quite right, Tony



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