Participative democracy
An alert reader gives us advance notice that the BBC are planning a live online readers’-question-and-answer session with Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Something to coincide with the Scottish Lib Dem spring conference next week. Here’s the one we submitted – we feel sure the BBC will select it to ask him.
“Mr Rennie, do you think it’s conducive to a constructive debate to insultingly refer to people who disagree with you as ‘turkeys voting for Christmas’, as you did in response to the recent vote in favour of independence by a large branch of the postal-workers’ union which covered your own parliamentary region? Would it have been acceptable for Blair Jenkins or Nicola Sturgeon to dismiss all the Glasgow University students who voted No in their mock referendum as ‘daft wee kids who don’t know anything about life’?”
Why not send in yours too?
“If untangling 14,000 international treaties is too complex for Scotland to become independent, how many is an acceptable number? 8,000? 2,000? 72? Cheers bud.”
“If the UK splits, will birds based in Scotland be allowed to fly south for the winter?”
“What do you want to be when you grow up?”
Do you wish to apologise at making such a rash statement on the so called 14,000 UK treaties?
How about have you updated your PSV licence recently…you are going to need it very shortly. All aboard u d***head!
Do you agree that being rejected by the people of Dunfermline in a Westminster election and then being rejected again in a Scottish election and then sneaking into parliament on a list seat is clearly against the wishes of the people and therefore Undemocratic?
Rennie is a hypocrite – expect no straight answer from him even if the disgraceful BBC Scotland put it to him. I may have told this one here before – if so forgive me! Rennie, while our MP was leafletting in my village. I asked why as a Liberal he sat in the House of Commons which supported the illegal war in Iraq and nuclear weapons. His reply was ” to stop the English being so aggressive”. To allow him a vehicle to respond I wrote the story to the Express (not a reader any more). They printed but there was no response. Rennie is a hypocrite and a bit dim as he proves nearly every weak on FMQ.
Are you proud to be a character stereotype for for Wallace & Gromit?
Are you paying too much for your car insurance?
Do you agree with a caller from Hull[Wright Stuff 8/3/13] that if its ok to Assasinate Assad of Syria, its ok to take Alex Salmond out as the caller is against Independence for Scotland.
When is your Libdem Homerule policy going to become statute?
What can you do, eh?
This is fun: How about, when you are back driving buses (not Stagecoach btw) will you repel concessionary OAP passengers passengers from your bus as a matter of your libdem “principles”
OT.
Rev. Please put Craig Murray’s blog on your links. He deserves if only for today’s blog. Must read.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Are you reading that paper you’re sitting on?
You have said that the SNP should embrace devolution if Scotland votes No in 2014. Have you similarly advised the Liberal Democrats that they should embrace independence when Scotland votes Yes?
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
@David McCann
Stongly agree.
This is the second day in a row that Craig Murray has posted an excellent and authoritative article.
Go on Rev give him a link.
Shirt – pants.
Ok, no BS..Question: What is your personal vision and aspirations for the people of Scotland? Your answer must be sincere and truthful inclusive of financial and policy ethos. We the people of Scotland that you claim to represent await your response.
I’ll add my voice to those requesting a link to Craig Murray’s blog. I think it’s important to contextualise what is happening to us in Scotland – we are by no means being singled out for special treatment at the hands of the BBC and the MSM, in fact their treatment of Scotland might be the least serious aspect of their propagandising and warmongering.
Who changes your pamper after FMQs ?
@Ray
“What do you want to be when you grow up?”
Ouch…
As a regular reader of Craig Murray’s blog, I agree and he would be a great asset to any Scottish Diplomatic service.
Vronsky says:
Question: With due respect, what is more serious than the Independence aspiration of one’s own nation of the people of Scotland. Nobody is warmongering but certainly we are subject to extreme anti-independence propaganda by our so called scottish msm & ebc. We will get our own democratic special treatment when we select YES 2014
Question: Do you think it’s appropriate for you and the Lib Dems to now be discussing devo-max, federalism or any other form of government for Scotland other than the status quo or independence, having very publicly slapped down Martin Sime of SCVO as “an SNP stooge” for discussing it last year?
Aye, Murray’s been there, done it, got the t-shirt. He knows first-hand what the State is capable of.
Do you agree that being rejected by the people of Dunfermline in a Westminster election and then being rejected again in a Scottish election and then sneaking into parliament on a list seat is clearly against the wishes of the people and therefore Undemocratic?
You are Anas Sarwar and I claim my £5.
Glad to see Craig Murray is putting his gravitas behind the need for AS to invite in international observers. Perhaps they could schedule a date for the day after the publication of the White Paper?
“You have said that the SNP should embrace devolution if Scotland votes No in 2014. Have you similarly advised the Liberal Democrats that they should embrace independence when Scotland votes Yes?”
I like this one.
“I’ll add my voice to those requesting a link to Craig Murray’s blog.”
Seems worth an inclusion in UK Politics, as we don’t have a World Politics section. Or maybe we should just have a World Politics section.
Democracy Live link in UK Politics now replaced with Craig Murray.
Toby-jug Taylor’s roadshow is in Cumbernauld. The clapometer on my radio indicates the audience is predominantly ‘Yes’.
“I like this one.”
I have actually sent that one.
I have e-mailed Mr Rennie twice now regarding the 14,000 treaties but I haven’t had a reply as yet.
I’d imagine I’d be wasting my time asking again.
Actual question sent to Beeb:
Dear Mr Rennie,
Given that federalism has long been a central tenet of Liberal Democratic thinking, given that the party is currently proposing a national convention to reafirm that policy, and given the overwhelming polling evidence that such devolution of powers short of independence was the preference for a majority of the Scottish people – how do you justify opposing such an option being on the ballot for 2014? (And please – no references to Alex Salmond in your answer – this is about Scotland’s future, not petty party political point scoring.)
What are my chances of an answer? Don’t all rush at once.
I’ve asked Craig Murray to give a reciprocal link to WoS. Given what we know of Google algorithms, are there other directions in which we can spread this net? The panel of links on WoS is influential in itself – it can link to other influential links, which link to – oh, you get the idea. Let’s use the machine.
Dear Mr Rennie,
Could you please provide some evidence that your party is Scottish, liberal and democratic?
“Toby-jug Taylor’s roadshow is in Cumbernauld. The clapometer on my radio indicates the audience is predominantly ‘Yes’. ”
Cumbernauld was independent years ago. They’re waiting for the rest of the country to catch up. I think it all started with ‘Gregory’s Girl’.
Do you think there will be a Scottish Branch of The Libdems left after the next election?
More or less off topic, the Scotsman & SoS has followed the Herald’s lead and asked that they be designated ‘regional’ when it comes to audited sales figures.
Perhaps it’s all a cunning plan to ensure Scotland remains a region.
Re: Cumbernauld, can you guess who’s avatar I have fallen for on CiF?
@Seasick Dave
You’ll probably have to email him at least 14,000 times.
ianbrotherhood says:
Toby-jug Taylor’s roadshow is in Cumbernauld. The clapometer on my radio indicates the audience is predominantly ‘Yes’.
Aye definitely.
Dare l say even Toby-jug seemed quite reasonable.
What’s the fastest land animal in the world, eh?
How about ‘Why should I be interviewing you, Mr Rennie?’
or maybe ‘do you have any actual long term goals for your party, or are you just doing this because the temp agency didn’t have any jobs going this week?’
@Donald Kerr-
‘What’s the fastest land animal in the world, eh?’
Wee Wullie Rennie himself, back to his mammy’s after FMQs.
Iain
It is allegedly so they are not required to publish monthly (yes monthly I think) circulation figures. Read it somewhere a couple of weeks back.
We know you are not a pessimist yourself, so how well do you think an independent Scotland would do? Presumably more than the increase in spending on armed forces in Scotland or the 1-2% yearly increase in public spending in real terms, envisaged by the SNP?
@CameronB-
Re: Cumbernauld, can you guess who’s avatar I have fallen for on CiF?
Brian Taylor’s? Come to think of it, he’s a plausible-looking ex-pro-wrestler i.e. Sumo.
Admit it Willie, it was you who did the extensive research which found the Top Secret ‘stamp’ for your ‘killer’ document, wasn’t it?
Chic McGregor says:
It is so they are not required to publish monthly circulation figures.
Is it correct that they only need to produce the figures every six months?
When l heard the Herald had changed to regional designation my first thoughts were that this surely will reduce their advertising revenue.
(Or maybe their ad space revenue is not that important now!!?)
The downward spiral increases in velocity
@ ianbrotherhood
The hair might be cute but that is as far as it goes, mate.
Think Gregory’s Girl and then if you can, one of the most dedicated cybernats I am aware of. At least on CiF.
Second thought, lets just drop it.
Baheid
As the Herald published its figures recently they must have been a tad disappointing as it was reported (quietly)yesterday that they were closing their Edinburgh office and the 12 staff would be expected to work from home How sad
@CameronB-
Taylor has a fine head of hair on him, no doubt about it. He is nothing if not well groomed.
Still can’t guess who you mean as I’ve never watched Gregory’s Girl, well, not all of it. Wait a minute…is it Clare Grogan??
I have it from a reliable source that Toby-jug uses a shampoo called ‘Formula Barnett’.
Ahhh, that’ll be Kochanski, Cameron?
@ ianbrotherhood
Kind of, actually Kristine Kochanski. I would put him/her close to the top of cybernats that I am aware of. Got a cute avatar as well. (blshingwinky)
Here’s one of my favourite pictures of Brian, with some other dudes, keeping it real:
link to angus.gov.uk
That is a rather unfortunate backdrop. (biggriningwinky)
Perhaps individuals should contact the OSCE ODIHR and make representations about the present media coverage, the BBC in particular, of the Independence Referendum issue. It will at least alert them to the fact that there is an issue. I don’t know the rules that pertain but my understanding is that the OSCE ODIHR can choose to send a mission to Scotland without a request from either the UK or Scotland and that if they do so choose it would be very difficult for UK as a member state of OSCE to prevent the mission from deploying and carrying out a media monitoring operation.
Which antacid would you recommend for trapped wind?
Who the feck are you?
Will your party back Tavish Scott in his calls for partitioning Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.
Email sent to OSCE info@osce.org requesting they monitor the referendum and media coverage. If enough of us do this, something might get done.
@Albert Herring –
Just sent them this. Bit of a rush job, but if anyone else wants to use, feel free, amend as you like.
‘Dear OSCE,I am writing to you following the recommendation of Craig Murray.Like many of my fellow Scots I am worried about the mass-media handling of coverage relating to the upcoming 2014 Independence referendum, and ask that your office sends representation to monitor the current debate across radio, television and print media. The ‘debate’ is unsatisfactory, and blatantly slanted in favour of the pro-Unionist ‘Better Together’ campaign which favours a ‘No’ vote. The SNP government has been subjected to misrepresentation – particularly by BBC Scotland – to such an extent that the Foreign Ministers of Eire and Luxembourg have both been forced toclarify comments on Scottish ‘independence’ which were, it seems, deliberately reported out of context.I hope you can help Scottish citizens at this very important time for our nation.’
@ M4ekyboy
First, multiple secession was ruled out (by the UN) in the Quebec situation even though the northern semi-antonymous nations of Native Americans in Quebec almost unanimously wanted it.
Second: Even if they were to be allowed to remain with the UK, that would then mean they become, being a small archipelago, no more than a foreign country’s exclave on Scotland’s Continental Shelf and would only be entitled to their 12 mile limit (No oil).
This was the conclusion of a legal study carried out after devolution and published in the European Journal of International Law. You can read it here:
link to docs.google.com
You see the map which summarizes their position here:
link to i51.photobucket.com
However, I am concerned, especially since both the legal experts used to produce the ‘Scotland =Greater England (North)’ report last month are maritime law experts and I fear that they may be trying to establish that Scotland’s Continental Shelf rights don’t exist and will not exist after independence, however ludicrous that sounds.
If Craig is reading this I hope he can advise us if that is the case and whether there is any chance of it being accepted or whether the previous study above will stand.
Third. If multi secession were allowed, then they could hardly object to Pictland seceding from Scotland (and therefore the UK) could they? At least it has been a country in the past. That would hardly leave them any better off because then it would become Pictland’s Continental Shelf. (Not a serious suggestion, just thrown in to emphasise the ridiculousness of multi partition logic).
I would like to ask Mr. Rennie the following;
If, following a YES vote in 2014, the Libdems secured a majority at the 2016 election would they be unable to run the country successfully? I ask this honestly because your party claims that independence will be a disaster no matter who is in charge.
Baheid: I think it was yearly for a regional but my memory is not clear on the detail, only the claim that it was to ‘hide’ the monthly they do for Nationals.
I wish everyone good luck with emailing ODIHR I truly believe that they are a worthwhile organisation and I sincerely hope that they get involved.
Reading Craig Murray’s blog he finishes it with. “The clock is ticking. Alex Salmond must ACT”
From this I am assuming that it would require a senior member of The Scottish Government to apply to ODIHR.
I could be very wrong regarding this.
Regarding Craig Murray’s blog I only came across it yesterday and I must say that I am very impressed. His C.V. is quite something. I would respect his opinion over some Eurocrat any day.
Unashamed plug for Craig Murrays blog which now has a link from WoS.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
I just sent my email. Fingers crossed everyone!
The email I sent was as follows if anyone wants to adapt. There’s a couple of bits I sort of nicked from Craig Murray’s blog.
Dear sir/madam
I am writing to you as I am becoming increasingly concerned that Scottish Independence Referendum will be neither free nor fair, due to the activities of the Scottish press and broadcasters, in particular BBC Scotland. It is well know that BBC Scotland has strong links with the British Labour Party in Scotland and is clearly anti-SNP as well as anti-Scottish Independence. This bias is displayed in the choice of which news stories to present related to independence, in the selection of guests invited onto programmes, in the selection of which facts to highlight within the selected stories, in the comments provided by journalists and presenters, and in the treatment of guests, the respect they are or are not given and the opportunity they have to present their arguments.
It is quite normal for ant-independence guests to be given free rein to express their viewpoint, but for the, usually outnumbered, pro-independence guest to be constantly interrupted, cut off, and shouted down.
There was a good example of this sort of thing yesterday, when a leaked Scottish Government discussion document, which had been misrepresented in the most dishonest manner by the anti-independence campaign was all over the news. It was presented as the number one news story, and television guests invited to discuss it in the course of the day were apparently 17 anti-independence to only 3 pro.
As an independence supporter I am worried that the independence referendum may be lost, simply due to the onslaught of misinformation and propaganda coming from the British State, via its state broadcaster.
I therefore request, in the interests of democracy, that you take steps to monitor the Scottish referendum, and in particular, the media coverage it receives.
Yours faithfully
@Albert Herring-
Good stuff. It’ll be interesting to see how they react to these e-mails. I hadn’t even heard of this body before the posts above and the link to Murray.
Here’s hoping the SNP and Yes Scotland make the most of whatever reactions there may be – the very fact that such approaches are being made speaks volumes.
Question for Willie:
Oh why were you born so beautiful, oh why were you born….
Acht, ye know the rest.
Cheers for that info Chic.
I was asking because it’s rumoured to be on the agenda at the conference in Dundee.
Warning. Ad hominem argument below.
I realise that Craig Murray has some interesting insights, and a fairly unique perspective on all this. He also has a reputation as a fruit-loop conspiracy theorist.
I realise that whack-job beliefs in one respect do not and should not invalidate someone’s viewpoint across the board. I simply caution against lionising the guy uncritically.
Morag,
just out of interest, would you consider a leaning towards the ‘Aquatic ape’ theory of human evolution an indicator of whack-jobism?
Also, maybe it would be helpful if you could post an authoritative list of whack-job beliefs so that lesser mortals, such as myself, can easily identify a whack-job conspiracy theorist from your normal thinking and questioning individual and so accurately weight their opinions. Kind of like a polling company.
It would also be of great help to me personally in weeding out all those whack-job beliefs which I haven’t as yet recognised, but which have been embarrassing my friends and family for so many years. (It may also help rectify my inexplicably disappointing career path arc as well)
Thanks
@Morag-
If Murray’s another addition to your list of ‘swivel-eyed loons’, ‘wankers’, ‘total fuckwits’ etc etc, would you mind telling us why?
The OSCE suggestion by Craig, may cause the BBC and other rabid unionist place (misplaced in terms of position v ability) men (and women) to ameliorate the worst of their career fueled excesses during the referendum campaign, so in that respect is well worth supporting. Do it.
The most effective, in law, procedure, would be to take the British Government to task via freedom of expression rights law as per article 19 of the ICCPR (UN) or article 10 of the ECHR (Europe) covenants. i.e. ultimately through the ICJ or the ECHR courts.
Unfortunately before you get to either of those final adjudicators you have to go through the barriers of UK domestic law. These barriers are largely financial. A study by Oxford researchers found not long ago that in Britain, the costs of pursuing a strategy such as this would be 140 (one hundred and forty) times more expensive in the British courts, than through the average European courts system. Another Union dividend.
So while there have been several successful cases for lack of plurality and balance in political output of state broadcasters in Europe, from Moldova to Spain, no-one has succeeded in raising sufficient funds to do so in the UK. There have been suucessful appeals to the ECHR for different things but only by those equipped with the funds to do so.
This situation is exacerbated by Britain opting out of collective supplication in the treaties so only individuals, very rich individuals, might even commence the process of seeking redress,
However, it might be possible to attract the interest of Special Rapporteurs in a similar manner to that recently (largely non-) reported re the UN SR who voiced concern re the number of people now using free food banks in the UK.
???
morag,
I’d like you to justify your view.
@Morag-
You’ve gone awfy quiet missus.
I hope you don’t mind me breaking down your most recent post:
8 March, 2013 at 7:13 pm
‘Warning. Ad hominem argument below.
(What follows is, ‘ad hominem’, but you provide no ‘argument’ – it’s straightforward slander.)
I realise that Craig Murray has some interesting insights (do you? what might they be? – even one example would be good) and a fairly unique perspective on all this. (‘unique’ in what sense? – you know all other viewpoints and are somehow qualified to classify his as such?) He also has a reputation as a fruit-loop conspiracy theorist. (Really? According to who? Please cite one example. And what does ‘fruit-loop’ mean in ordinary language?)
I realise that whack-job beliefs (wee bit clarification needed here, surely?! Do you even know what ‘whack-job’ means?) in one respect (which respect?) do not and should not (why not?) invalidate someone’s viewpoint across the board. I simply caution against lionising the guy uncritically.’ (You kept the best howler till last – how is it possible to ‘lionise’ someone un-critically?)
You, Morag, really need to knock the mockery and cheap-shots on the head – I’ve not been visiting this site as often as you, and I’ve not read each and every thread and post over the past six months, but the most strident, abrasive and unpleasant voice I’ve heard is yours – I’m not surprised that you were banned from NNS (a ‘bunch of wankers’?) and I’m certainly not the only reader of this site who feels that you should’ve been bagged long before your self-destructive and gratuitously personal rants against fellow commenters who raised legitimate questions BTL in response to your Lockerbie article.
I’ll chuck it now before I say something which gets me barred, but consider this – we’re meant to be ‘on the same side’, right? You are, single-handedly, doing a great job of dividing us.
Chic McGregor,
Thanks for your very informative post @ 12:30am.
I was completely unaware of the UK’s opt out on what I believe the Americans call class actions. This seems to me to have exactly the consequences you outline.
If you know, or know of a source, I would be interested in how prevelant this opt out is in relation to other signatories. And what the justification(s) for it are.
“It’s the rich what get the pleasure,
It’s the poor what get the blame,
It’s the same the whole world over,
Isn’t it a bloody shame?”
Braco,
What a fascinating site this is at times. I am ‘interested’ in alternative viewpoints, but I tend to be hard headed about the standards of proof I expect.
The aquatic ape seems to fall into the category of ‘nice idea, shame about reality’.
That said, I have my own soft spots. It might be worth examining the ways we come to beliefs. Once upon a time I read the altogether brilliant but disturbing ‘From Hell’ by Alan Moore. Deep in the appendices was a link to a book entitled ‘The origin of conciousness in the breakdown of the bi-cameral mind’ by a chap called Julian Jaynes. (I am a sucker for a great title. At that time I had no idea what bi-cameral actually meant.)
The outcome was that I bought and read his book a good few times. It is a lot more interesting than the latest Dan Brown. It is also advocating an idea that appears, to me at least, to be untestable, unfalsifiable and probably right. It has, well lets face it, minority, support to say the most.
link to julianjaynes.org
He might be right, and if so it would be a huge advance for our understanding of evolution. OTOH he might be wrong, so what?
As above, so below.
We chose our political leaders and essentially acquiesce to their judgement. Much as we do with any idea whatsoever.
@ douglas clark
That kind of links with my “and finally” post the other day, about the god helmet. I thought that contemporary neuroscience took the bicameral mind as fact. Perhaps not in the wider scene possibly applied by Julian Jaynes, but at least in terms of the functionality of the brain.
For example, the right hemisphere apparently is concerned with data collection. The left hemisphere is responsible for data analysis and interpretation. This is where the normalcy bias can sometimes kick in, whereby the left side analysis over-rules the right side data collection. Our subconscious directs the brain to hold to previously conceived ideas or traditions, despite the evidence collected by our senses. In other words, your classical cognitive dissonance. The brain is rewarded chemically for sticking with the status quo.
I am in no position to form an opinion on Jaynes’ theory, only having read the overview, but is his dating of the development of human consciousness. not a bit problematic? I would have thought that early human society displayed considerable culture, at a time when they would be bumping in to Neanderthal man, who had their own culture. Doesn’t culture denote consciousness?
CameronB,
I think his arguement is that the instinctive fight / flight syndrome dominated up and until the last four thousand years or so. His arguement is that you were, essentially, controlled by that voice in all apparently threatening situations. So, any concept of free will was limited by half your brain which took over in rammies. Told you what to do in a command sense. I am, sort of, attracted to that notion because I have acted illogically in similar situations, which could be a vestige response according to his theory.
An alternative notion is that the power of adrenalin is much underestimated.
Just because an idea is attractive to me, doesn’t mean it is right or is not open to criticism, which is an even more fundamental part of my nature. When I was very young I wanted to believe in the ‘third eye’ as apparent biography by a chap called T Lobsang Rampa, a Tibetan Monk. It turned out that the guy was a plumbers son from Devon (or Dublin, accounts vary.) It is quite sad when the world turns out not to be as you hoped it might be. But we all move on.
Anyways, we should ‘Vote Yes’ with either half of our brains.
Chaps, this is seeming increasingly like something that belongs in Quarantine.
Deleted. Cross-post with RevStu’s last.
“..the recent vote in favour of independence by a large branch of the postal-workers’ union..”
CORRECTION:
“..the recent vote (where 63 members voted for separation from a total branch membership of 4,000) in a large branch of the postal-workers’ union..”
As a professional journalist I’m sure you’ll thank me for that clarification.
Cripes, wrong thread! Sorry…
From:
The US Holocaust Memorial Museum
Lessons In Propaganda
“In contrast to the ideal of an educator, who aims to foster independent judgment and thinking, the practitioner of propaganda does not aim to encourage deliberation by presenting a variety of viewpoints and leaving it up to the audience to determine which perspective is correct. The propagandist transmits only information geared to strengthen his or her case, and consciously omits detrimental information.”
Exactly what has happened this week, more than any other
“what is the point of you?”