Nous sommes avec vous, nos amis
Posted on
January 07, 2015 by
Chris Cairns
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Thank you Chris, I will share on FB.
Excellent, Chris.
Non, je suis Charlie.
Again Chris Cairns gets it just right .
D’accord.
Very thoughtful.
Well done Hamish, and I too am Spartacus
un triste jour pour la liberté 🙁
Yes.
Moi aussi. Ne jamais céder aux terroristes salauds!
Merci beaucoup Charlie/Chris!
[…] Nous sommes avec vous, nos amis […]
Tragic event, nothing more to add.
Ithought of you when I heard.Thank you.
Thanks
Oui
A simple, dignified and powerful image. I swear that I can see the anger is Chris Cairns’ pencil strokes.
Vive la vieille alliance.
Hamish speaks for many, all around the world.
Nice work, Chris.
Shocking scenes from Paris.
Merci, Chris, du fond du cœur.
It’s the best way to honor their death; carry on drawing. We (In France, Scotland and elsewhere) will never yield to grisly and appalling violence.
Bravo!Les pays du Royaume Uni doivent se dresser d’un seul bloc pour la liberté.
Watching Al Jazeera, the French people are gathering in Republic Sq. Many with their signs like Hamish.
This incident is being as reported as ‘different’, as the killers were so measured and slick. 🙁
Fitting tribute.
Thanks!
Let me just stress that it happened in France, but it could happen anywhere. Barbary, obscurantism and stupidity know no borders
Et moi aussi,
Moi aussi
Thank you Hamish, Chris Cairns and RevStu.
I have no words at the moment; quite shocked.
[…] Nous sommes avec vous, nos amis […]
@Valerie:
the killers clearly were professionals. They were equipped with Kalashnikov rifles, which are obviously not so easy to get. And then, even when you have bought a war weapon, you have to be cut out to use it and shot people in cold blood.
Je suis Charlie
Chris
Powerful message as always
Non, je suis Charlie.
@AuldA, just what the commenters are saying too. Also, they mentioned a rocket launcher?? When the killers departed, those speaking to the footage, said they calmly got in the car, no crazy driving, switched cars efficiently, and on to a motorway ramp.
Just very shocking. A friend on FB, living in the French countryside, asked her two boys to keep in touch, cos they live in Paris.
So scary for people there feeling these killers are among them.
S
@Valerie
Just been watching Aljazeera, currently an English security analyst also saying it was ‘different’, ‘audacious’, all true. I’ve no problem with that. News should be about analysis not just sentiment. Clearly it’s shocking, tragedy etc but I expect news channels to cover it in this way.
For me the No 10 press conference with Cameron and Merkel is way more tasteless, a nod to the attack but swiftly onto the global economy etc.
Moi aussi, je suis Charlie.
Such is the mindset of extremist islamic fundamentalism that satirical humour is seen as religious blasphemy.
Satire may not always be to everyone’s taste
but it doesn’t warrant the death penalty.
But extremist right wing ideas are not on distant shores alone.
Here in the UK, the leader of the Unionist alliance, David Cameron, has used the State controlled mass media to brand as INSURGENTS, Scottish pensioners and children, together with other law abiding citizens from all walks of life,
merely because they exercised their right to self-determination.
Law abiding Scots are seen as INSURGENTS and NAZIS by the right wing Unionists in the WM Government and Better Together Alliance, and in the British media.
Mr Cameron wants to be careful what he now says about other extreme right wing groups.
Well done Chris.
Can someone please translate for me as I don’t speak French.
@AyeAlba
“I am Charlie” according to google.
Yet another drawing accurately gauged. Brilliant Chris.
Endless war on terror. “At 10 pm, the motion without the amendment was passed by 412 to 149 votes, authorising the invasion. The British military campaign against Iraq, Operation Telic, began one day later.”
Vraiment terrible. Je suis Charlie aussi.
@heedtracker
Under the Christian flag according to Bush and Blair.
Harman warns against “chilling effect” on free speech after Charlie Hebdo attack
“We have to be clear that the right of free speech is a basic human right for every individual and no democracy can function without freedom of the press.“
Harriet Harman.
link to labourlist.org
Thank you Chris, very well said.
@Manandboy: fanaticism and violence have many guises.
@Valerie: My partner has friends who live nearby and whose children go to a school only a few dozens meters away. The shooting happened around 11.30 am, just minutes after the children had egressed, and they clearly heard the sound of the guns. I don’t want to imagine what could have happened if the thuds had emerged from the building exactly when the children were being picked up…
@albahla, I thought it was worse than that, as Cameron finished condemning the act, and launched straight into ‘welcome chancellor, we have just had a great trip to the British museum!
Thank you Chris
Mes freres et soeurs en France, je suis Charlie
@ cynicalHighlander, a Labour government under Blair could have at least tried to stop Bush and co but no. Did guys like Blair or even a buffoon like Jim Murphy really think they could win in Iraq 2003, did they care what they were doing had no planned outcome?
“As of 2013, UK Afghanistan war alone cost have been calculated as £37bn. In June 2010, UK costs exceeded £20bn for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined.”
From wiki.
This is the legacy of same Labour party looking at the end of the road in Scotland May 2015 and rightly so.
AyeAlba @ 6.17
See if you copy the text you want to translate, and then open a new page , type in the word translate into the searchbar and you’ll get two boxes one where you paste the text and the other box will translate to english for you.
link to tinyurl.com
Je suis triste avec La France
Mais
Le desespoire est un insulte a l’avenir!
@manandboy
Yep, with you on that…
like chris I opted for French and je suis.
Interestingly the press in france (radio, Tv and le monde) has offered resources to ensure Charlie Hebo lives on
i support a free press
charlie.link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Like everyone else I was shocked and very sad when i heard of the tragedy
Freedom of the Press..Absolutely
As opposed to instruction of the press, now who would do that?
Je suis Charlie.
Disgusting and ultimately futile behaviour in Paris.
cold blooded killing of policeman on street was a Godless act
Je suis également charlie
Je suis Charlie.
My heart goes out to the families and friends of those massacred by soulless barbarians.
Thanks Chris. Perfect.
So terribly sad.
Je suis Charlie
Long live freedom of expression and Charlie Hebdo.
And shame on those who seek to stifle them.
Shocking event.
Merci Chris et Stuart au nom de la democracie et de la liberte.
Et moi aussi,en Ecosse. Is mise cuideachd, ann an Alba.
Let’s not make spurious comparisons between this and our argument with the British state. That would undermine us all.
Je suis Charlie
Je Suis Charlie.
link to facebook.com
I am also Charlie. RIP.
So so sad.
Nous sommes Charlie
I hope the criminals who perpetrated this murderous act are caught and brought to justice. Whoever they are.
The pen is mightier than the sword.
Wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:
7 January, 2015 at 8:06 pm
Et moi aussi,en Ecosse. Is mise cuideachd, ann an Alba.
Let’s not make spurious comparisons between this and our argument with the British state. That would undermine us all.
or
Freedom of speech?
Thanks cynicalHighlander and john king for your help.
Terrible, awful what happened in France.
All terrorists are cowardly monsters.
Je Suis Charlie.
Has Tony Blair been asked for his reaction yet?
Where is he anyway?
If anyone does bump into him, they might want to give him a wee heads-up about the stats as-linked below, even those for the past week.
link to iraqbodycount.org
Indeed. Well put Chris.
The arrestblair.org site has already awarded thousands of pounds to people who’ve tried to apprehend Blair.
It could be your chance next! so bone-up on the rules, and read about the efforts made so far:
link to arrestblair.org
spectator
alex massie
It is worth dwelling on this today precisely because it reminds us that this morning’s Parisian horrors cannot be blamed on George W Bush or Tony Blair or neoconservatives or anyone else. The motivation for this barbarism long pre-dates their time in office.
MORE – FRANCE: 1 of the gunmen are involved in a former cell called (FR) “La Filière Irakienne” (Iraqi network) that sent fighters to Iraq.
8:16pm – 7 Jan
@bookie from hell
Alex Massie is up his own backside.
Is mise Teàrlach.
I’d like to agree with everyone here; this was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families, friends and every affected by this. I hope whoever was behind this, be it individuals or governments, is brought to book for this atrocity.
Wee Jock…
Since the British state have been calling all indy supporters insurgents, viruses, Nazis, etc. ad nauseum, I think it’s really salient that people point out how inappropriate their words are here. Since none of us are gun-toting maniacs but rather believe in peaceful democracy, freedom of speech and progressive politics then it’s important to show them how inappropriate their language and tone towards us have been. The British state really need to modify their language when speaking about people who believe in independence, progressive politics and democracy. I don’t think that’s undermining us to say that; merely pointing out a fact and trying to get them to realise what their words mean and how inappropriate they are.
I don’t do twitter or FB so perhaps those of you that do can let folks know the gendarme killed on the pavement was a French Muslim, Ahmed Merabet. Seems things are getting overly polarised.
What a world we live in. So much hate. What fucking century is this?
Nothing more to add. Thanks Chris.
Goodnight all
Kirsty
totally agree.
I regard Christianity, Islam, and Judaism as the three great evils in this world.
How many words are we allowed to “exprime” (explain or expire) our disgust at what has happened today!
This country is supposedly the birthplace of “freedom of expression”!
I hope all moderate people of the muslim faith revolt (passively) and express their horror at todays events!
@bookie from hell (10.10) –
Is that a verbatim quote?
If so, Massie is truly remarkable – he knows who the assailants represent, and their motivation? And it all lets Dubya and TB off the hook?
Give that man a Pulitzer!
Truly shocking.
Only 2 weeks ago I was proud of France for voting to return Palestinian statehood at UN.The motion only lost by one vote I believe.
US and Australia voted against,UK abstained.It seems doubly tragic after France showed solidarity with their Muslim brethren then and when soundly refusing to back war in Iraq.
Terrible events.
Spot on Chris. Hamish says what needs to the said.
I have a question for any of our ex-army guys here. Something about the footage (well all of it) showing the gunning down of the cop troubles me. The gunman is armed with an AK47 which as I understand it fires 7.62mm ounds. Now a point blank head shot with a round of that calibre would surely cause massive disruption to its target. It doesn’t appear to though. Is that possible?
Forgot to mention thanks to Chris for another perfect, fitting depiction of what many people will feel.
“Charlie Hebdo cartoonist and editor Stéphane Charbonnier, known simply as Charb, refused to back down in the face of repeated threats, raising the stakes by publishing pictures portraying a naked Muhammad in 2012.”
I condemn all terror ettacks.
But do western journalists really need to publish naked cartoons of someone revered as a prophet by more than one billion of the world’s population?
Except cheap laughs by belittling other people, what do we get out of them?
Our official secrets acts and secret courts result in many matters of importance to be kept hidden from the public.
Even a referendum poll by the government was kept hidden.
Isn’t that more restrictive to our freedoms then banning journalists from publishing highly controversial cartoons which place our whole society at risk?
Don’t you just love religion.
Divisive, fanatical, xenophobic, cruel, superstition.
Noble and brave Guardian’s Steve Bell’s cartoon response to Charlie Hebdohttps://archive.today/YEUY1
Bell was on BBC R4 teatime explaining that he merely “pokes fun” at stuff.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
was his Guardian fun poking of Scottish democracy. Such a brave bunch.
If these murderous fanatics really believe that their almighty god exists and hates criticism, why don’t they leave revenge up to him. Any self respecting god would be able to magic up a suitable Hell for the likes of me which would be worse than anything they could think of.
Personally I think they secretly doubt their “beliefs” which makes them all bitter and twisted.
Thanks Chris – very sad day.
Je suis sans voix ,c’est tres malade .
@Rock
The problem as I see it is even if distasteful, and against the beliefs of another person, someone has the right to publish material.
No one has the right to force their beliefs onto someone else. Violence in resort to something that is at worst disrespectful and distasteful satire is just not warranted at any level.
I have pondered upon the somewhat perceived anti-Islamic publications but even then while it might logically provoke a terrorist attack it can never justify it.
alex massie–full article specator
Je Suis Charlie
It is important, today especially, to remember that this is nothing new. We have been here before. On the 11th of July, 1991, Hitoshi Igarachi was murdered in his office at the University of Tsukuba. His crime? He had translated The Satanic Verses into Japanese. That was all. Eight days previously Ettore Capriola, the novel’s Italian translator, had been fortunate to survive an attempted assassination in Milan. And in October 1993 William Nygaard, the Norweigan publisher of Salman Rushdie’s novel, was shot three times. Mercifully and remarkably, he survived.
In fact, it had begun before that. On Valentine’s Day 1989 when the Iranian Ayatollah issued his fatwa against Rushdie. That was a test too many people failed back then. We have learned a lot since then but in many ways we have also learned nothing at all.
In 2012, Rushdie wondered if any publisher would have the courage to endorse The Satanic Verses if it were written then. To ask the question was to sense the depressing answer. They would not. Too risky, too provocative, too inflammatory. Too insensitive. Too dangerous. Sorry, mate, but we just can’t do it. Besides, you should have known what you were doing. Weren’t you, in some vague sense, asking for all this trouble?
No. No. Thrice No. Rushdie did not ask for trouble. Trouble was thrust upon him and everyone else associated with the publication of his novel.
It is worth dwelling on this today precisely because it reminds us that this morning’s Parisian horrors cannot be blamed on George W Bush or Tony Blair or neoconservatives or anyone else. The motivation for this barbarism long pre-dates their time in office.
Doubtless some will still, even now, find a way to blame the victims. Doubtless some will do anything they can to avoid looking reality squarely in the face. Doubtless some will pretend that reality can be wished away or that responsibility can be transferred to someone, anyone, other than the perpetrators.
Shame on those people. Shame.
Doubtless, too, there will be the usual calls on all Muslims everywhere to condemn these attacks as though they bear some inchoate communal responsibility for the barbarous actions of their co-religionists. This too will be drearily predictable and familiar and, most of all, desperately unfair. Their Islam has nothing to do with this even if it is also true that other subscribers to the faith do not share their views. The platitudinous suggestion Islam is a religion of peace is evidently, abundantly, true for the vast majority of Muslims while being utterly untrue for some. And so what? Where does that leave us? Only in a state of dread that’s matched only by its inadequacy.
To say these people are motivated by a perverted form of Islam is, in the end, pointless. Because it’s not perverted for them. Quite the contrary, in fact. They are the purest of the pure, the godliest of the godly. It is the real Islam as far as they are concerned. This will happen again.
Two conflicts rage here: one between civilisation and barbarism, the other between modernity and a kind of fanaticism we’ve known in our own past. As it happens, tomorrow is the 318th anniversary of the execution of Thomas Aikenhead in Edinburgh, the last man – though really little more than a boy – to be executed for blasphemy in this country. The Church of Scotland urged his execution the better to confront “the abounding of impiety and profanity in this land”.
‘S an t-ainm Tearlach a th’ orm.
Viva La France.
Great sketch catching the feelings of many.
Shocking incident, surely there must be a better way of sorting out our differences.
Reports say two under arrest and one suspect shot. French Police.
Je suis Charlie
For thousands of years lunatics have used this misguided religious nonsense to commit terrible crimes against others, half the things all of us say on a daily basis is enough for that kind of mindset to justify these crazed responses, and what always shocks us more is these innocent people never lifted a weapon never threatened anybody, they wrote satire not to the taste of what really are just bad bad evil people. To take advantage of non combatants weakness is as low as the human race can get and to hide behind mythical Gods or Prophets of any description or religion is a lie and can never be accepted as an excuse or reason. I want to apologise to the people of France for not being able to do something.
Massie seems to be unaware of how many Muslim men, women and children are killed daily by “our” forces in the War on Terror. If the objective of WoT was to keep us safe then a rethink is long overdue. We are still waiting for Chilcot to be published – 3 years after it was due. How can he attempt to score cheap points from this tragedy.
We are all Charlie. And some are in the front line.
David Smith, not the time or the place to answer your query. If you want I will answer on off topic thread
It was our own Sir Walter Scott who first put his finger, in fictional form, on the nature of fanaticism. That was his greatest achievement as a novelist, and one we have forgotten. In Waverley (1814), Redgauntlet (1824) and in particular Old Mortality (1816) he peers into Scottish history to see how it was that people could get carried away by a cause, to the exclusion of all else.
And being a good novelist, he understood the dual attraction and repulsion that fanaticism carries. He protected his readers by veiling it all as past history – but of course it wasn’t, and isn’t.
It’s worth remembering, as we shake our heads in incredulity at what happened in Paris, that history tells us we have been there too…
Very O/T
BBC / MSM journalists please note when politicians attack the performance of the Scottish NHS can you please point out that:
In England under Tory / Lib Dems their A & E waiting times target of 95% treated within 4 hours is merely 92%
But NHS Wales, run by Labour are only hitting 82%.
Scottish NHS performance for the year to September 2014 was 93.4%
‘S an t-ainm a th’orm, Tearlach. Anns an taic agus gu dearbh cuideachd.
Great drawing, Chris. My heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones in this outrage.
For those who wish to curtail freedom of the press for any manner of ‘I’m offended’ reasons:-
“If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for those that we despise, we don’t believe in it at all.”
(Noam Chomsky)
“A free society is a place where it’s safe to be unpopular.”
(Adlai Stevenson)
I am French, I am Charlie.
Powerful and thoughtful Chris.
Well said Call me Dave.
bookie from hel says
“Doubtless, too, there will be the usual calls on all Muslims everywhere to condemn these attacks as though they bear some inchoate communal responsibility for the barbarous actions of their co-religionists. ”
I agree
Commonwealth 1st world war wargraves in Gallipoli Turkey who we invaded (our enemies)
link to tinyurl.com
WWII wargraves in Benghazi Libya who we liberated from Axis forces (not our enemies)
link to tinyurl.com
nothing more to say!
Kirsty @ 10.16.
Do us all a favour Kirsty and get that comment printed in the National.
David Smith @ 11.06 pm
Really?
Long live freedom of expression.
And may your weapon of choice remain the pencil.
link to beta.images.theglobeandmail.com
As an atheist I am appalled.
In the British Isles and within Western Europe, it took several hundred years to go from a society that put religion at it’s heart, where violence was committed against fellow citizens in the name of religion, to a point, now, where we are a secular society.
Unfortunately (and this may be deemed as non PC, but no apologies. You see, I am exercising my right to freedom of expression) we now find ourselves with a society that has several million citizens that put a non secular authority above that of the secular authority.
And whether we like mentioning it or not, that represents a problem. Like Charlie, we shouldn’t be afraid to talk about it and we should resist those who would rather put that subject beyond discussion and critique, which was the aim of the Paris gunmen.
And the best way to resist those who would see freedom of expression diminished and curtailed is to talk about subjects that some would rather we didn’t discuss. So let us talk about and forensically examine those subjects, whether it be Scotland, Unionism or Islam. We can, of course, choose the most appropriate forum, but don’t shy away just because someone objects or doesn’t share our Western values.
@giving goose
We aren’t a secular society though. Bishops sit in the unelected H O L. The head of state is head of the official church. There are religious people attending many state events with their blessing and sermonising. The opinions of “holy men” are reported as though they were more important than the views of taxi drivers or a bloke you met in the pub. And in our country there are “religious” schools.
A great thing a secular society would be in my mind, but this one is not that society.
Superstition is a private matter and should always be.
Hilarious, i was blocked on twitter by David Leask of the Herald for saying some of the reporting was a joke, which is his right, but he tried to equate saying that with the ‘zealots’ (his word) actions in Paris!
davidb I agree regarding superstition, but unfortunately some superstitions are less benign that others, with the potential for tragic outcomes.
Regarding what you say regarding the role of religion in the state; since the English Reformation, the Church of England has been more explicitly a state church and the choice of the Archbishop of Canterbury is legally that of the Crown; today it is made by the Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister, who receives a shortlist of two names from an “ad hoc” committee called the Crown Nominations Commission.
That involvement by the state in religion, in my opinion, should be extended to Islam and clerics appointed in a similar fashion. In other words, the State should apply a measure of control to ensure that the moe extreme elements are not preached and are effectively excluded from the mainstream of Islam.
Sad, but in this case,necessary.
One person’s freedom of expression often results in another’s freedom being restricted or even oppressed.
Example 1. The freedom to express the right to self-determination by Scots is oppressed by the British State, which uses the terms ‘Insurgents’ and ‘Nazis’ on an almost daily basis in describing Yes/SNP voters.
Example 2. Democracy in Scotland is diminished/denied by the almost total absence of a free Press.
Example 3. This is a really tricky one. The Reformation in Scotland 1560-2015 and it’s consequences for the religious, political, social, and economic freedom of Catholics.
To this day, the Scottish Unionist Establishment is anything but pro-Catholic, and arguably, is institutionally sectarian.
As a nation seeking Independence, Scotland has several very serious issues of freedom still to be addressed.
Free speech – not as easy as it sounds.
The David Leask tweet:
“On this day, as journalists are slain by zealots; still on this day other zealots rear their wee heads.”
My comment that some reporting was a joke had nothing to do with the issue in Paris, but was concerning the MOD secretly removing the ban on nuclear submarines sailing into two lochs.
The HoL is supposed to have no powers, unless Westminster politicians illegally, let unelected HoL members decide policy. The Head of State is supposed to be impartial and have no powers. The only reason to have a Monarchy. If Monarchs, civil servants and politician illegally and secretly disobey the rules they should resign or be sacked. Otherwise It is not a Democracy.
In my experience, those who hold atheistic beliefs, together with those holding secular beliefs, are rarely content to live alongside those who hold ‘Judeo-Christian’ beliefs, but do appear content with those who hold other ‘religious’ or ‘spiritual’ beliefs.
But then my own parents held one or two beliefs I thought a bit ‘dodgy’. You can’t trust anybody these days.
The unelected HoL can refuse or send back a Bill twice. Then it goes through, anyway. No ulimate power, Delay.
This horrific execution of Charlie’s staff for perceived blasphemy points up that our own freedoms from theocracy were hard won. There was a time in Scotland when the state could murder people whose views differed from the orthodox and not all that long ago either.
The young Thomas Aikenhead was hung in Edinburgh in 1697 for blasphemy. We must be vigilant, religion everywhere seeks to impose its will on humanity even to the extent of killing those brave souls who express their dissent.
link to en.wikipedia.org
A dreadful event ,fanatical religion and medieval thought processes combined with modern weaponry.
Brian Powell, what is this ? Where can I find out more?
I already know that Westminster has given the MoD the right to pump more effluent into the Firth of Clyde with no ” journalist ” in the MSM raising an eyebrow.
What Scotland has done to deserve such a media is beyond my comprehension.
Agree with most posts,but spent the night looking at the two extremes.On one hand we have those who corrupt their own beliefs to allow mindless slaughter, and on the other hand we have the little gems like Malala ,who shared the Nobel peace prize this year. Who I wonder will come out ahead in this internal struggle?
Judism, Christianity, Islam all come from the same root with different interpretation. Virtually the same rules, commandments. Except Muslins have to give, a tithe 10% to charity. Christians had to give that too. Ie support their Church. There are different rules for marriage. Marrying out of the faith etc. Cultural rather than religious. Judism/Christianity becomes diluted by intermarriage. Muslim is still in the minority in the world. 2Billion – less than a third. Often enforced by the State for economic, cultural reasons. Many ‘religious’ disputes in the world are caused by injustice, poverty and deprivation.
Massie started off well but examining yesterdays events in a 80’s/90’s vacuum where the past 20 years have no bearing is disingenuous.
On a more positive note it was great to see so many people rally in support of free speech yesterday across Europe in reaction to these horrific events in France.
Folks:
From MSM a couple of minutes ago
A gunman kills a policewoman in Paris today.
When will this bloody end..
Good piece here,
link to plotspot.blogspot.co.uk
I see the conspiracey web sites are ripping the MSM Goverment narrotife to pieces, if it looks like a False Flag and smells like a False Flag its a False Flag Attach, lets see if i get freedome of speech?
Typo folks, SOB,
link to plotsplot.blogspot.co.uk
John/Alan. Sorry for broaching my question on here, but happy to discuss on O/T.
Agree, here not best.
Thank you Chris. That is a wonderful gift you have there. Many can draw,sketch and paint but only a gifted few can crystallise an emotion, circumstance or complex issue into a single picture. You can draw what others can only think.
@ Dorothy Devine
It was in yesterday’s The Natonal.
The MOD has secretly lifted a safety ban on nuclear subs using two of Scotland’s lochs.
The National has revealed that Trident armed and nuclear powered subs are now able to sail up Loch Goil and Loch Ewe.
@AuldA says: 7 January, 2015 at 5:23 pm:
” … We (In France, Scotland and elsewhere) will never yield to grisly and appalling violence.”
Yeah! AuldA, but with what we have had as our next door neighbours, for thousands of years as a nation, we have had much practice at doing so.
It has been said that nowhere in the Wide World is there earth so steeped in human blood as the Scottish/English Border. What’s more we are still fighting over that same earth today. Mind you we now do so in a far more civilised manner than ever before. Let us hope it remains thus.
@AuldA says: 7 January, 2015 at 5:51 pm:
” … the killers clearly were professionals. They were equipped with Kalashnikov rifles, which are obviously not so easy to get. And then, even when you have bought a war weapon, you have to be cut out to use it and shot people in cold blood.”
The stark fact is that these killers killed humans in the name of their God. The unsubstantiated belief in a non-existent superior intelligence, that supposedly loves us all, has been the death of more human life than the worst Worldwide pandemic. Yet no God as yet has been proven to exist or ever having existed.
@Tam Jardine says:7 January, 2015 at 10:23 pm:
“What a world we live in. So much hate. What fucking century is this?”
Are you kidding, Tam? There has never been a century in recorded human history when man’s inhumanity to man has not seen religious nut-jobs killing each other in the names of their respective Gods or the Profits of their Gods. Starting in the Garden of Eden when Cain killed Able.
Just look at today’s Glasgow. There we have Protestant vs Catholic as an everyday occurrence and the sad fact is that both sides share the same Christian God. Can you seriously ask what century we live in when Wings over Scotland is set up to fight for Scottish independence?
Allow me to quote for you Article II of the Treaty of Union that we seek to end: –
“Article II. – THAT the Succession of the Monarchy to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and of the Dominions thereto belonging, after Her Most Sacred Majesty, and in Default of Issue of Her Majesty, be, remain, and continue to the Most Excellent Princess Sophia, Electoress and Dutchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of her Body being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled by an Act of Parliament made in England in the twelfth Year of the Reign of his late Majesty King William the Third, Intituled, An Act for the further Limitation of the Crown, and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject: And that all Papists, and Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and forever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the Imperial Crown of Great Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging, or any Part thereof, and in every such Case the Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to, and be enjoyed by such Person being a Protestant, as should have inherited and enjoyed the same in case such Papist or Person marrying a Papist, was naturally Dead according to the Provision for the Descent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England in the first Year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary entituled An Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.
The present claims of Scots for independence is all about returning the situation to one that does NOT involve religious intolerance. Mind you the whole history of the World indicates that the religious bigotry is just a weapon used by those with a greed for power and riches to manipulate the poor and ignorant for the benefit of the rich and power hungry. Note also that both Blair & Bush invaded Islamic countries in the name of their own mythical Christian Gods.
Sad day
Around three to four percent of all humans are psychopaths or have strong psychopathic tendencies. It’s a fact and there isn’t anything much we can do about it.
It’s not too bad a problem and the rest of us can handle it as long as psychopaths don’t get into positions of influence, like political or religious power. That is when the trouble starts, as their deranged thinking processes come to the fore and we begin to suffer the consquences of their actions.
They get into positions of power because the rest of us put them there, either through our own inaction or naivety, and we allow them to spread their madness throughout our societies like poisonous cobwebs.
They cannot be reasoned with and they must be dealt with sharply and as soon as their symptoms appear. Mad politicians, mad priests and mad imams: our society, all of us, pays the price for our lack of action.
It may be too late.
@Robert Peffers:
You’ve never seen that episode of Star Trek TOS called ‘Spectre of the gun’? At the very end, Spock says: ‘I wonder how humanity managed to survive’. And Kirk answers: ‘We overcame our instinct for violence’ with a wink to McCoy.
There is no alternative.
They killed in the name of themselves. If anything, God is love. It is the part, sometimes deeply borrowed in us, that leads us to believe that together we can make this earth a better place to live, if we have the will and the energy. It’s the spirit of peace that drove those soldiers, during Christmas 2014, to stop shooting themselves and play football instead, amidst the trenches and the barbed wires. It’s the improbably shake of hand between the Z.A.’s former president de Klerk and Nelson Mandela.
It’s the faith for a better future we all share, and that shall never die.
Maybe a purely emotional reaction to a (very) shocking event like this is appropriate, I don’t know. Personally, hell will freeze over before I declare myself to be Charlie Hebdo but we are all different.
The thing about political cartoonists and satirists is that you love them when you agree with them and are annnoyed when they seem to serve a political agenda not your own. Presumably their goal is not to worry about who they annoy, art for arts sake etc.
However, after Val and co. restarted Charlie Hebdo in 1992 it took a marked turn to the right. E.g. When one of the staff, Mona Chollet, criticised Val for an article referring to the Palestinians as non-civilised, she was sacked. Siné made a quip about Sarkozy’s on marrying a very wealthy (and Jewish) heiress, no-one thought anything of it until some Jews complained several days later and then Siné was sacked, consequently being awareded 90,000 euros when he sued. As for the Jyllands-Posten cartoons, much loved by Charlie Hebdo, what I find ‘off’ about the exercise is that they resulted from a campaign where they advertised for cartoons about Mohammed. I wonder whether any of the cartoonists and satirists who vigorously defend them would themselves take part in such a deliberate campaign of offense designed to offend Jewish sensibilities. Doubt it.
Terrorism appears to be successful because of the shock value, as a cruel and seemingly random act which results in loss of life. Where it fails is that the very shock value tends to mean that the political message is lost. I once saw an interview with Osama Bin Laden, you know, the mad fundamentalist? What struck me is that he didn’t talk about women wearing veils, he didn’t talk about American culture and Coca Cola, he talked about Palestine. And Moslems talk about Palestine all the way to Malaysia and Indonesia, I have found.
In the Charlie Hebdo case, I don’t what motivated the perpetrators. Possibly it was simply that their religious sensibilities were offended (which I don’t have that much sympathy with). Or possibly, they believed the intention of Jyllands-Posten and Charlie Hebdo was to deliberately encourage Islamophobia, in their own way, just as the Tea Party does in its way. And the encouragement of Islamophobia is designed to justify real and immoral actions, such as the destruction of Iraq and Syria, and the appropriation of Palestinian territory. The terrorists don’t seem to realise that they are only making things worse.
Frankie Boyle, who never, ever, descends to cliche offers the following:
Frankie Boyle @frankieboyle ·
I’m reading a defence of free speech in a paper that tried to have me arrested and charged with obscenity for making a joke about the Queen.
Frankie Boyle retweeted Aamer Rahman @aamer_rahman ·
As a random Muslim I’ll apologise for this Paris incident if random white ppl will apologise for imperialism, drone attacks and Iggy Azalea.
Frankie Boyle retweeted
Actually just had some cunt from Belfast telling me Christians don’t get involved in terrorism
@ Robert Peffers, todays Glasgow we have Protestants v Catholics as an everyday occurence? when did this happen, I’ve lived here for seventy years this is just bollox.
@Robert Peffers, “Todays Glasgow we have Protestants v Catholics as an everyday occurence”. When did this happen?As somebody who has lived here for seventy years this is just bollox.
If you say Sarkozy’s on very quickly, it’s the same as Sarkozy’s son.
(Sorry!)
@barbaramackenzie
Interesting post, thanks.
@Barbara:
Sadly, I must partly agree with you. There have been a clear loss of freedom regarding Judaism. When one watches old Desproges’ skits about Jews and Nazis that he wrote during the ’80s, anybody nowadays who would dare to even slightly reproduce this kind of humour would instantly be sued and most probably heavily fined (but, I hope, not “potshot”).
The terrorists have their own very limited view of the world, which clear borders between what’s acceptable and what’s unseemly. It’s often a Manichean view: if you’re not with me, then you’re my enemy.
Barbara, I’ve noticed quite a few of my Facebook friends (mostly fellow artists and writers) also expressing this reluctance to shout Je suis Charlie on account of their politics. I cannot comment on it, but I do think whatever the motivation for the murder, it shows just how powerful – and dangerous – art is:
link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com
The thing about political cartoonists and satirists is that you love them when you agree with them and are annnoyed when they seem to serve a political agenda not your own.
It goes deeper than that: as much as political cartoons have been used to deflate egos and destroy painstakingly-crafted public images, they’ve also been used to normalise atrocities and demonise minorities – working for The Establishment as well as against. For every David Low, there is a Philipp Rupprecht, and even someone like Dr. Seuss can perpetuate horrendous stereotypes and facilitate appalling actions through immoral satire.
@Taranaich I wish I’d said that!
On a different tack I think we all respond with great shock and strong emotion when something happens that is horrific, unexpected and close to home. But I draw the line at suggesting that this tragedy is greater, or more unfair, or delivers a greater blow to free speech than other events past and present, many of which are the result of British policy. I haven’t yet said, ‘I am Baghdad’, ‘I am Palestine’, ‘I am Athens, December 1944’ (when it was bombed by the British) so I’m not going to start with Charlie Hebdo.
@Taranaich:
Interesting article you point to. Is it yours?
In any case, I think the author would get an interesting insight by digging somewhat into neurology and the brain processes at work when we identify forms or faces (which involve very very different cerebral areas, and therefore cannot be directly compared).
Art is holistic and non-verbal. A drawing is understood by everyone everywhere, although cultural factors come to the fore. I’m not sure an Eskimo would identify a smiley as a face. I’ve heard they are unable to ‘perceive’ perspective in 2D drawings.
Writing is different. It involves langage, and as every linguistic process, it is colored by experience, culture, and our understanding of the words.
I have absolutely no problem saying Je suis Charlie. None whatsoever. Yes, the magazine trod a dangerous path but that’s not a good enough reason to stand back away from those defending their right to say it. It matters not what Charlie Hebdo’s direct political leanings are; they have as direct result of this become a wider rallying point.
And no one, absolutely no one, deserves what they’ve just endured.
As for this pish…. “Just look at today’s Glasgow. There we have Protestant vs Catholic as an everyday occurrence….”
I live in Glasgow, aye? I would quite like this substantiated, because if you’re going to pull anything that makes Glasgow sound like Belfast minus the polarised communities you had best have some sort of backup for it, because I live in Glasgow, like I said, and it smells strongly of bullshit to me.
@Fred says: 8 January, 2015 at 3:40 pm:
“when did this happen, I’ve lived here for seventy years this is just bollox.
Try telling that to the hard pressed A&E staff any night of the week but particularly in the aftermath of an Old Firm Game. Tell it to the long suffering wives and biddie-ins who regularly get abused when either Old Firm loses a game. Tell it to Police Scotland and Ambulance staff. And before you go any further with your denials. The statistics from Courts, Police, Hospitals, Woman’s Aid and Social Works departments back-up what I say.
Now don’t get me wrong, I do not claim that Glasgow people are generally a bad lot. However anyone who claims that sectarianism is not rife in Glasgow and its surrounding areas must be walking around with their eyes shut, their ears plugged and their brain shut down. Believe me no one is more anti-sectarian than the vast majority of the normal Glaswegians themselves.
@Fred says: 8 January, 2015 at 3:43 pm:
“When did this happen? As somebody who has lived here for seventy years this is just bollox.”
As you replied twice, Fred, I’ll answer you twice.
Here’s an article from the Herald by Robbie Dunwoodie.
Have a wee read for he quotes statistics.
link to heraldscotland.com
You do no one, nor Glasgow, any favours by turning a blind eye to sectarianism. As Dunwoodie states in Scotland there are two sectarian crimes every day and most are carried out by teen & twenty males in Glasgow and area.
@:Peter Macbeastie says:8 January, 2015 at 7:36 pm:
“As for this pish…. “Just look at today’s Glasgow. There we have Protestant vs Catholic as an everyday occurrence…”. “… I live in Glasgow, aye? I would quite like this substantiated”.
Aye! Peter, about that, “Pish”. Right you are – Take it up with the statistics, Peter, and with the likes of the Herald’s Robbie Dunwoodie. As I posted in reply to Fred up thread. Two sectarian crimes per day, mainly in Glasgow from the statistics he quotes.
BTW: No one said it was like Northern Ireland — well except yourself that is. Furthermore. I’m neither Protestant nor Catholic. In fact I do not believe in any Gods whatsoever. I thus have no religious bias whatsoever.
@davidb says: 8 January, 2015 at 8:41 am:
” … Bishops sit in the unelected H O L.”
Only English Bishops sit in the HOL, Davidb.
“The head of state is head of the official church.”
The Head of State is only head of the CofE.
As to, “religious” schools.”
In Scotland all state schools must, by law, not reject a pupil on religious grounds and that includes the RC schools.
“Superstition is a private matter and should always be.”
It is also pure bunkum and any well educated person knows that it is. Going to tell us how a number can be lucky or unlucky? All superstition is based upon ignorance of the real facts.
Gallowlgass,
“someone has the right to publish material.”
What about the material our ‘democratic’ governments keep hidden from us? The government’s pre-referendum poll? The McCrone report?
Didn’t Edward Snowden have the right to publish the material he did, given our ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’?
If we have the right to see naked cartoons of someone’s prophet, do we not also have the right to see things which are more relevant to us?
Our freedoms are at risk precisely because we don’t know where to draw the line.
I would prefer to ban such cartoons so that we could travel freely through our airports without each and everyone of us being seen as a potential terrorist.
@Robert Peffers
Me an atheist and Nationalist.
Religion, being mere superstition, should be entirely the responsibility of the individual, not the State. That schools should teach in a “religious ethos” is anathema, yet it is paid for by our taxes. So we are clearly not a secular state.
The HOL, which I would see abolished, has 26 C of E Bishops, and other members certainly in the past have been appointed because of their “religious” position – Baroness Neuberger springs to mind. Now I voted to sever our links with Westminster, but enough others did not, so the legislature of the country I am stuck living in has religious unelected appointees in it.
And while I have no particular opinion on Lizzy staying or going, I do recall seeing film of her Coronation, the investiture of the Prince of Wales, his marriage and his son’s marriage, and every one of those was officiated by gentlemen with dresses on from a religious organisation which looks to be at the heart of the state.
So are we secular? I am atheist and Nationalist. That was the jist of my original comment.
And Je Suis Charlie.
@Fred says: 8 January, 2015 at 10:02 am:
“There was a time in Scotland when the state could murder people whose views differed from the orthodox and not all that long ago either. The young Thomas Aikenhead was hung in Edinburgh in 1697 for blasphemy.”
I’ll refer you to a far more recent case, Fred, Helen Duncan.
“Scottish Medium, Helen Duncan, full name Victoria Helen McCrae Duncan, (25 November 1897 – 6 December 1956), was the last person to be convicted and imprisoned of Witchcraft under the British Witchcraft Act of 1735. Mind you it transpires that this was just the Westminster Establishments way of convicting her of what they thought was being a foreign agent.
In November 1941, (During World War II), Duncan had held a séance in Portsmouth. During this she claimed the spirit of a sailor materialized and told her HMS Barham had been sunk. However, as HMS Barham’s sinking had only been revealed, in strict confidence, to the relatives of the casualties but not announced to the public until late January 1942, the Royal Navy took a great interest in Duncan. So there were two naval lieutenants in the audience at two of her séances, (on 14 January 1944 and on the 19 January). The Police arrested Duncan at another séance just as a white-shrouded manifestation appeared. This figure turned out to be Duncan herself, dressed in a white cloth that she tried to hide when discovered. She was then arrested and charged as a practising witch.
Duncan was found to have a mocked-up HMS Barham hat-band. This was to back-up her tale of a spirit sailor. Thing is, after 1939, sailors didn’t wear hat-bands that identified their ship. Duncan was first arrested under section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824, which was a minor offence tried by magistrates. However, the authorities wanted to get her on something more serious, and dug up section 4 of the Witchcraft Act 1735, which covered fraudulent “spiritual” activity and that was subject to trial by jury.
So there you are – the United Kingdom was still trying and convicting women as witches at the tail-end of WWII.
Nous sommes tous Charlie
Front page of the National was used by the Danish tabliod BT as an example of solidarity shown throughout the world after the massacre. It’s the 4th one out of a total of 12 newspaper front covers shown here:
link to bt.dk
Je suis entièrement d’accord avec vous
Might we enquire where Mr Peffers comes from that he’s such an expert on Glasgow and its problems? I would suggest that for a city the size of Glasgow, and remember that half of Scotlands population live in a twenty-five mile radius of the city, two sectarian crimes a day is probably not a crimewave. Crime in any case is at its lowest for decades and dragging in the Old Firm, when you know very well that they haven’t met for yonks, is clutching at straws. Have you attended many Old Firm games that you can relate first-hand your experiences of the situation? Rangers & Celtic’s fanbase is drawn from all over Scotland & Ireland, as the addresses of those arrested in the days when there were Old Firm games, can attest. I was once at a game in Dingwall which I can only compare to the Gaza Strip and as for A & E, on a Friday night, it’s an alcohol-fuelled problem all over Scotland, ditto murders, ditto burglaries etc, etc.
I generally like your stuff Robert but you’re a wee bit inclined to get exacerbated by the exhuberance of your own verbosity and such is the case here. Robbie Dunwoodie as a so-called journalist is one of the reasons I stopped taking the Herald after 35 tears.
I also am an athiest with no axe to grind, I live in the east-end of the city and certainly don’t go around like the three wise monkeys,or wear body armour, in fact I wouldn’t live anywhere else. I have no scars on the phyzog, by way of backing this up, and the only person whe ever lifted their haun tae yours truly was his Maw.
Promise me you’ll buck up, get a sense of proportion & keep off the sherry in the evenings.
Aye, it is. Very cool remarks, I have done a wee bit of neurological research. I do recall that the Chinese had a problem distinguishing shadows in portraits back in the Middle Ages: they percieve relief as if it was skin discolouration. It’s a fascinating subject.
Nor should you. I think there’s a worry that this sort of polarising can lead to simplification (even though I don’t think anyone in their right mind condones the attacks), but this is one of those occasions where I’m happy to be on the fence.
It’s a curious thing, this tendency to band together under a slogan. There’s a pattern, too: first those who support it (Je suis Charlie), then those who disagree or oppose it on some level (Je nes suis pas Charlie), then those who focus on another aspect of the event (Je suis Ahmed), and so forth. It’s so easy for everything to fracture, and for everyone to close ranks into groups – and for them to play against each other.
The best thing I saw about the whole thing was all the people gathered in places throughout the globe, just sharing company with their fellow people. Simple gestures like that are heartening to see.
By way of solidarity, Rev Stu, why don’t you post the offending cartoons? And if not, why not?
@Churm Rincewind
Because he doesn’t want Wings associated with a right-wing hate campaign?
From the Middle East:
link to gulfnews.com
Have just seen some still images of the march in Paris today with all the ‘world leaders’. Very impressive. Netanyahu and Abbas very nearly linking arms? You don’t see that every other Sunday.
Anyone know if Tony Blair bothered going along?
Isn’t he still the UN ‘Special Envoy’ for the Peace Quartet or whatever it is they’re called? Perhaps he’s busy sorting out Africa, or something…