Keep fishing
Despite the strikingly unequivocal nature of David Trimble’s clarification yesterday of his comments about the independence referendum’s potential impact on Northern Irish politics, remarkably the media are today still trying to spin them into a dire warning about a Yes vote causing renewed violence in the province.
The picture below is a page from this morning’s Sunday Times.
We’ve included the entire story so you can see the complete context for yourselves. But the second paragraph is where the action is.
“The ex-Northern Ireland first minister said a Yes vote in September may also lead to increased violence, although he thinks mainstream republicans would see it as a reason to pursue change through the democratic process.”
IS that what he said, though? Notably that line isn’t a quote, so we’ll have to hunt through most of the piece before we get to Lord Trimble’s actual words.
“I don’t want to raise false hares about violence because I don’t think that would directly happen, although you would be in a situation that would be too difficult to be absolutely sure that nasty things wouldn’t happen.”
So he doesn’t think violence would happen, but quite reasonably doesn’t want to give any hostages to fortune by absolutely committing himself to a guarantee that some unspecified “nasty things” wouldn’t occur.
Readers might be forgiven for thinking that that sentence is quite a considerable spiritual distance from “a Yes vote in September may lead to increased violence”.
But for the Unionist media, the idea that Scottish independence might in fact strengthen peaceful democracy – Lord Trimble told BBC Radio Scotland yesterday that “actually, a Yes vote in Scotland would reinforce the argument against violence” – isn’t going to sell many papers, or further the cause of Project Fear.
Quiet this morning. Is everyone out buying their Sunday Herald?
hav you read the sunday herald?
But for the Unionist media, the idea that Scottish independence might in fact strengthen peaceful democracy –
Lord Trimble told BBC Radio Scotland yesterday that “actually, a Yes vote in Scotland would reinforce the argument against violence” –
isn’t going to sell many papers, or further the cause of Project Fear
And Lord Trimbles actual words are all that really need repeated by all responsible people.
Well those who were actually listening anyway.
Rev – check out the Sunday Post poll – its complete mince.
Ah but the sad thing is that once they ennoble you then you are one of the Establishment and you need to watch your p’s and q’s. So whilst he has clarified his original remark he has perhaps toned down the clarification somewhat as well. I was more interested in the last bit.
Cut urged for Scots MPs with a NO win. We might end up with none with a YES but we may end up with similar with a No, certainly not enough to do much protesting.
Fiona Hyslop is right and The Sunday Times is being mischievous at best.
Liked Tom Shields take on it in to-day’s excellent Sunday Herald
After the Roman invasion of Scotland in AD71, the Melius Largior Dando (Better Together) campaign argued that armed resistance by the Caledonian tribes was counter-productive. Scotland would not be able to access the benefits of the Roman Empire slave economy. The violence could even lead to a border wall being built to prevent Caledonian immigrants moving south.
During the Scottish wars of independence, the Scottish Lairds with Land in England Association took a dim view of the guerrilla activities of William Wallace against English occupation and advocated devolution as a sensible way ahead.
1707 was a successful year for the Better Off with English Gold political faction (aka The Parcel of Rogues in a Nation), who organised the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament and the Union with Westminster.
In 1746, the Better Off with the Hanoverians organisation fought with the mainly English army at the battle of Culloden against the Jacobite forces. It was the last pitched battle on British soil and hopefully will remain so regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
Project fear is more like project joke. 3 years of utter rubbish and I bet they are saving the best for last.
The first 2 shops I tried were sold out of Sunday Heralds. Third time lucky. I managed to snag one of the last few from local supermarket. I don’t think there will be many returns tonight.
Just leave their garbage on the news stands.
What this does for me is confirm that I need to get out of the UK. The people running the media are so completely cynical that their disingenuous protestations about press freedom (think of the press reaction to Leveson) are sickening. The unionist media in Scotland and the UK is really not much better than in Putin’s Russia or communist China. Totally cynical, self-serving and lacking in principle. Even after a Yes vote, many of these same people will be at the SBC. Can we ever trust them again?
Thank goodness for the Sunday Herald.
A good example of whataboutary being more dark-art than science.
@ bookie from hell
still waiting for a copy but looking forward to the dissection on this site. It will make the sort of rubbish in the Times above seem pretty desperate old hat.
It’s a strange old world where a national democratic vote for independence is used as a vehicle to promote violence.
The sunday times article looks like a typical smear article. Readers not giving it proper attention will be left with the message contained in the headline and “… ex-Northern Ireland first minister said a Yes vote in September may also lead to increased violence …”
I find people taking up potential trouble, especially in N.Ireland, deeply alarming and offensive.
What next?
“China faces civil war if Scotland votes Yes”
All the problems of Northern Ireland are ultimately caused by the the people of Northern Ireland or of the people inhabiting Westminster (perhaps Rep.Ireland too). Not Scotland’s problem.
@Another Union Dividend
You left out the best bit about setting England free and giving them Gordon Brown as a leaving present, couldn’t put it better other than pffering up Alastair Darling as well.
Personally, I think Ulster will have its own problems within the next 20 years or so. Going by Wikipedia, there is this to reflect…
Across the nine counties, according to the aggregate UK 2011 Census for Northern Ireland, and Irish 2011 Census for counties Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan, there is a slim Catholic majority over Protestant (50.8% against 42.7%)
Now …50.8 is not a slim majority against 42.7 (I’m guessing the missing 6.5% will those of Muslin, Hindu, etc persuasion). Say Scotland does leave in September. I think a lot of people in Ulster will look at their own state and wonder. I can see many people in Ulster possibly thinking that reunion with the South might be the best way forward.
Even if Scotland remained, I think the issue will slowly creep and slowly grow in voice within N.I. politics. There are many there who would happily see re-unification with the Republic.
For Northern Ireland …Scotland is not the problem; and won’t be, whatever way the referendum goes.
@Murray McCallum
i think the word you were looking for was ‘reckless’ ?
Demographically Ireland can vote to be reunited.
The ‘trouble’ was caused by people like Trimble.
Once again, I Just want to give a MASSIVE thanks, love and respect to all you great folks here at Wings who have helped raise funds for our short film, ‘Autumn Leaves’. We have now reached more than half of our £1500 budget target. Nice one guys!!
To those who may be interested and want to support us, it is a comedy/drama set on the night of the referendum and cast includes Sean Scanlon (Para Handy), Barbara Rafferty (Rab C. & Hamish MacBeth) and Carmen Pieraccini (River City).
You can read all about it here:
link to kickstarter.com
Shout out to Rev Stu for his continued support. Thanks guys!!
Sunday Herald pretty brilliant today, except the Putin rehash which I couldn’t be bothered with.
However, for some bizarre reason also bought the Sunday Post – the questions submitted as part of their indyref series are jaw-dropping in their negativity and (don’t want to be rude) lack of awareness of Scotland as it is now, never mind after independence.
Typical, all smiles with the Herald then cast into doom by the Post…grrr.
While there is a millennia old claim to kinship with NI,the idea that our democratic process would destabilise the region is ludicrous.
The only thing that could do that is Westminster shitstirring.And I think they’ve started it..again.
Divide and conquer,the unionist mantra..hypocritical or what?
Operation Gladio. Oops, did I say that out loud?
I had to visit 3 shops before I could find one
Typical irresponsible ‘reporting’ by a newspaper.
Much the same as the irresponsible ‘foreigner’ line
taken by Unionists as discussed on the previous post.
Divide and rule?
Now, I know Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan, are part of the Republic, but they still affect Ulster.
The 2011 census revealed that 48% of the resident population are either Protestant or brought up Protestant, which was a drop of 5% from the 2001 census. However, 45% of the resident population are either Catholic or brought up Catholic, an increase of 1%.
That is a difference of 3%. It’s hee-haw …which is why, with the other 3 counties, things could really wobble in Ulster in the next few years. Self-determination could raise its head again there. Wonder if wee Willie Hague will still be shouting about the rights and self-determination of peoples who deserve the right to choose their own future …especially if its in the province…
Yes gordoz it is indeed reckless.
I find it offensive to the memories of people (from all sides of the community in N.Ireland) who have lost their lives. It’s also offensive to the NI politicians and armed combatants that found a way to make peace.
The article suggests that all this pain and investment in democracy is at the whim of a democratic vote in another country.
I believe the journalist in question began his career at Brian Wilson’s West Highland Free Press in Skye, so his unionist credentials should be unblemished.
gordoz
Was that Sunday Post story about Trident a copy and paste straight from The Daily Mail.
link to sundaypost.com
Was the Sunday Post not that family friendly paper years ago that the whole family could read without coming out in a rash.
Did it not carry the life and times of the “Broons” Family.
How times have changed.
It’s almost as if the unionist media were wishing all their dire warnings would come true.
Aren’t these the same types of warnings by Unionists/Loyalists that violence couldn’t be ruled out if a united Ireland became completely independent back in the 1910s/1920s, ie blackmailing the wishes of the democratic majority for a united Ireland with veiled threats of destabilisation, violence and terrorism?
ps
It’s ironic that a majority of Catholic people in Northern Ireland reject uniting with the south and want to remain part of the UK –
Opinion poll indicates NI voters would reject Irish unity
link to bbc.co.uk
… a substantial 38% of Catholics also favoured remaining within the UK – three percentage points more than the number who backed a united Ireland.
And another way of looking at it.Who the hell cares what happens in another British mess that is N Eire.Scotlands politics are polls apart from them.Someone once said that Scotland would never progress unless we kept Irish politics out of our nation.I think they were correct.Typical British divide and rule imperialist interfering.
Joe yes same irony applies to Catholics in the labour party in Scotland.Campaigning to remain part of the wonderful British state that created the divide and the protestant monarchy.
The sentence in italics at the very end looks worth a bit of investigation too. It rather suggests that there’s a desire amongst some in England to see us even less well represented in the UK if we remain within it. Presumably as punishment for daring to think about independence.
The real turn in NI politics will occur after a Yes.
But not in the way the media suggests.
After a YES vote I can only see any funding NI gets being withdrawn back into the belly of beast[Westminster].Wales will also suffer this.No money from us,means less money for them.Their programme of making London an economic powerhouse and to hell with the rest of us will come off the rails
As Westminster continually try to head off secessionist movements within Englands borders,they will be forced[due to reduced income from us]to ignore those areas “outside”.
This will increase calls for Irish reunification.And with Westminster unable to support their puppets,it will almost certainly happen.The few Neanderthals still clinging to some forgotten religious bigotry will not take it lying down.But they will be toothless and left to swing in the wind.
Wales might follow suit if they can wake up before it’s too late and perhaps other areas of England as well.Remember the Scilly Isles call to become Scottish islands?[OK,that was a political manoeuvre to be included in the fuel tariff debate but you get my point.]
@caz-m says
Yeah its a complete mess of an article in terms leading questions and suggestion that this is a sticky question for SNP and wider YES movement.
Hope a certain Rev rips it to shreds.
Managed to get the 4th and 3rd last copies in Tesco Kingsway. Sunday Herald pile the only one that low by noon.
I seem to remember reading in the Grauniad years ago that the Republicans in NI were more prepared to talk as they were aware that they only had to wait for the demographics to favour them, and that point wasn’t that far away by then.
Cam-z
The Sunday Post is now a joke and its headline “Independence on Trial” with a cartoon showing Alex Salmond in the dock shows that it is far from neutral on the issue.
‘Autumn leaves’
Just give a bank a/c no to pay into, or an address for a cheque.
@Murray McCallum
Reckless as the ‘British controlled’ scottish media are they’ll continue this thread in an attempt to disrupt via Labour doctine and the usual suspects of Lord Reid, Baroness Lidell, Lord Foulkes, Lord O’Neill, Lord Watson, Lord McFall … NotaLord Brian Wilson et al
Months ago I warned off the Whitehall Ministry of disinformation,I believe this is now being cranked up, with the arrival of No borders, and the gradual introduction of Ulster problems into Scottish affairs, the LOL marching season about to begin, expect the Orange card to be played.
Its becoming desperate times for UKOK and desperate measures will be taken.
Far as I know, BBC is still a member of the CBI. Isn’t it?
Just another 20 needed to get this thing to 1000 –
link to change.org
They simply cannot help themselves, can they?
We’ve gone from being considered insignificant and incapable to potentially causing the fall of western civilization and social unrest in NI.
Just amazing contortions.
I answered the Sunday Post’s request for our thoughts on their “impartial” coverage in the first week.
I told them I would have more faith in their intention to be fair if the title for the project hadn’t been “Independence On Trial”. I pointed out that a more accurate title would be “The Union On Trial”, as it is the union’s many failings which have brought us to this point.
The cartoon featured the first week was a disgrace. Salmond, looking guilty, in the dock. Darling dressed as a QC, with a pile of questions. Not content with this, a box of jurors featured a woman closest to the First Minister with her arms crossed, glowering at him. A less than subtle reference to Salmond’s alleged problem with women.
If this is the Sunday Post reaching out to the undecided in an impartial manner I’d hate to think what a biased approach by them would look like.
On N.Ireland, the UK Government is falling back on the old religion tactic.
When the economy is in a bad way in NI, the best way to take the locals mind off it is to introduce the religious card.
Especially in NI.
And they will have troops coming back from Afghanistan later this year and we cant have them stuck in barracks doing nothing, so get them back over to NI.
UK Government sits back and lets them all blow the shit out of each other.
Let them get on with it.
Vote YES.
O/T but important
caz-m and camz are TWO DIFFIRENT PEOPLE.
Rant over, lol.
@Ian Brotherhood #
That should be 19 now
Ian
Just another 20 needed to get this thing to 1000
Nineteen.
Good luck with the petition.
caz-m
That’s historically true.Not this time though.Remember that the returning troops are coming back to a P45 to be replaced with TA.
Can’t see many signing up to go to NI on their weekends off.Westminster will have other fish to fry,like trying to keep their heads above water.
Ken 500 – that’s what I want/need too .
So how about it Autumn Leaves?
O/T
Arch Unionist former Scottish ruby internationalist Findlay Calder, who regards the anthem as an “embarrassing anti-English rant”, told The Sunday Times it is important that the referendum debate is not coloured by Flower of Scotland being played during the Commonwealth Games.
Another Proud Scot.
Perhaps the unionist media are trying to piss off the Ulster Unionists, nothing would surprise me these days.
Its all down to a myopic Londoncentric media bubble
Perhaps David Trimble should dust down the ‘Plan B’ book in the event of Scotland ending the UK. To have a referendum in Northern Ireland, which the republicans are pushing for, in such an event. David Trimble has made it clear he is against that. BUT I think he may be open to a ‘half way house’ idea of having Northern Ireland as a semi autonomous state. Remember there are a few cross border government organisation’s in pace already. So would be a short hop skip and a jump to semi autonomous state.
If a referendum were to take place in Northern Ireland, would see it as a 2 or 3 question one, with 1. Do you agree to merge with the Republic, 2. To be a semi autonomous state and perhaps 3. Do you want to be shackled to England?
The telling remark from David Trimble is that he agreed that Scotland has reached the current position and will make the decision to end the union through democratic process
For Info – From WoS twitter page
” Re Trimble, I’ve spent last 10days in Belfast talking to both sides about Indy – ‘NO-ONE’ thinks a YES vote would push Ulster back into conflict ”
James Maxwell journalist (twitter)
caz-m
Another thought,what’s left of their army after we vote YES will be up tae their oxters quelling civil unrest when they have to stop paying pensions,benefits and potential trident base sites protests.
…the LOL marching season about to begin…,
– I live under Scottish Labour’s North Lanarkshire Council crumbling hegemony. The LOL marching season started here a few weeks ago. They’ve already been allowed to parade up and down the main street during weekdays and weekends holding up the traffic for hours on end. Not even funeral corteges to the local places of religious worship are allowed to do that even for the few minutes it takes to reach the chapels and churches where the services of remembrance take place.
Gerry Adams also on trial? Something sinister going on in N Eire.He may or may not be guilty.However when are the Brits who killed countless civilians going on trial as well.
JLT – you are making a fairly common mistake – Ulster comprises 9 counties – therefore 3 including Donegal are in the Irish Republic. Ulster is not Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland is not Ulster!
Apart from the excellent Sunday Herald today and a sparkling piece again from Macwhirter Aamer Anwar’s contribution to today’s SUN is masterly.
Can any clever person put up a link to it?
Kate Higgins was first class on the telly at lunchtime and talked right over Kerr’s attempt to interrupt her on the Trimble conversation. She managed to get over very clearly that The Times and the BBC had distorted what he had said and that, despite his clarification, the BBC still had the distortion up online.
Yes Joe Orange marches are a shame on all of us.Its not about tradition.Unless tradition means celebrating the massacre of fellow human beings on religious grounds.Why do Glasgow council the biggest labour group in Scotland allow a celebration of evil.Change Catholic to Jew and there would be uproar.This is the subversive tolerance that goes on in Scotland against Catholics.Also ignorance.A guy in my work said he disagreed with the Sash thought it was a good tune though, and didn’t have a problem with sentiment.When I explained it was the sentiment of spilling Fenian blood that was the problem not the tune he looked baffled.Almost like a logic by pass.
Forgot to say congratulations to ‘Business for Scotland’ for the brilliant advert in the SH today and the excellent 10 Economic facts page which prove Scotland would be better off under independence.
Great work and thanks to all 100 business people who submitted names to be published in advert.
See BBC its not all about CBI (and ‘ahem’ if you stay in CBI you should also be joining Business for Scotland in terms of non bias & impartiality)
Well done Gordon McIntyre Kemp and Ivan McKee keep it up guys.
Northern Ireland is a problem created by the British Empire and the long term solution will only come with the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
A Yes vote for Scotland will mean a new fresh start for Northern Ireland.
Like Scotland they will have to stand on their own two feet and work out their own future with their new neighbours.
@ Dave McEwan Hill
Have to say Dave you were proved right about Sunday Herald.
PS – Like the Sunday Herald in shops, ran out of YES Newspapers in South Cowal yesterday; will drop by for more.
Ian smart on Sunday politics said Coatbridge avertiser had more readers than Sunday herald,he still looked depressed thou ( : > )
@Gordoz.
I loved this on the tamb.
“BBC says no”
link to pbs.twimg.com
Got 3 Heralds just before midday.
Will be sending one to family in Wales.
Depressingly easy to get one in Hamilton. Local newsagent had plenty. Morrison’s had 7 left. Having said that there were plenty other newspapers as well.
Just bought the last Sunday Herald from my local Tesco. Plenty remaining copies of the other titles though
BBC Radio 3 and BBC Radio 5 Live have both mentioned in their short periodic news bulletins that the Sunday Herald has came out in support of Scottish independence. Which is interesting given the brevity of these austere news digests and the fact they aren’t specifically meant for Scottish consumption alone.
@alexicon says
Christ that is quick work – get it out there !!
Ya beauty – the fence must have been cuttin’ right into their arse right enough (Not !)
Right, the Rev.’s next post is up so I’m going O/T.
Does anyone know if or when it might be possible to contribute further to VNB? I think this video might be right up their street, as it is all about borders and separation.
Someone local might want to have a word with Mr. Campbell, about European membership and the Euro.
link to channel4.com
@ CameronB – I think VNB are last month’s news!
@ Ian,
13 needed now.
joe kane
BBC tv, the “national” channel now showing it including an interview With Richard Walker, Editor of the SH. Typically stupid questions from the interviewer—the BBC staff know more about Syria or Ukraine than they know about Sotland.
The only ones trying to stir up trouble is the MSM. No dirty tactic is beneath them.
The partition of Ulster was a result of Lord Randolph Churchill (Winston’s father) “playing the orange card” in response to Gladstone’s Home Rule proposals. So easy was it to divide and rule and retain the power in Westminster. The three western counties had to be left out otherwise there would have been a Cathoic majority. I believe Gerry Mander was Irish too!
Cameron B
I think VNB have been Smeato’d and dealt with instantly. A swift kick in the credentials they’ll never recover from.
They could always rebrand as BNV. Bored No Voters.
Hi Bill McLean,
You may have spotted my 2nd post, showing the demography for the 6 counties. However, whether it is Ulster-major or Ulster-minor, it matters not. There is demographic cloud growing on the provinces horizon.
Papers finally arrived in Arran, popped into the filling station as I was out for lunch at a nearly café, and bought one , NO voter sitting in his car at the pumps, I showed him the Front page as I walked by, and he gave me the thumbs up!!!
He wound down his windae and said Im a YES voter now, he had never heard of WOS, so told him to check this site out, Campbell if your reading welcome to Wings. Don’t be shy.
Only about half a dozen Sunday Herald’s left, all the other papers stacked high however they had only been on sale for about ten minutes.
Went to my normal “newsagent” as I had phoned and booked two Heralds, (This is after cancelling my order midweek)
No Heralds left on shelf’s, other papers piled high…
Left with my two Heralds, before I got back to the car parked about ten yards away, I only had one left…
Ananurhing
Pity, it was fun while it lasted. I just have this vision of the Larson cartoon of the young porcupine playing with a balloon.
Update on morrison’s. They had 4 left when I finally left the store. So had sold another 3 in the hour that I was there.
I expect them to sell out after all.
Got my Sunday Herald, YES. 3 left in shop, beside Aberdeen’s Duthie Park.
Spotted Labour MSP Lewis Macdonald and “NO” 3person team door knocking in my leafy Ferryhill Aberdeen South! Whit a cheek.
I also bought my childhood paper Sunday Post for first time in ages, mainly for Lesley Riddoch’s opinions, I rate her. Also big 4page piece on Trident, that will be good read. Hope the Broons and Oor Wullie are still going!
I think the sad thing about this whole debacle is the fact the whole act of union was nothing but a method of securing the crown to “the true protestant religion”… which of course means all religions are rubbish apart from CofE… it had the advantage of securing the land border with the marauding ‘Scotch’…
Look at the kick up when Tony Blair changed his religion, look at the representation of religions in Westminster, not the MPs (although catholics were not allowed to be MPs historically… not sure now tho), however, religions not officially represented with a voice in the house of lords are Catholicism and Jedi… all the rest are in there.
Also, consider this; why were British troops originally sent in to NI? It was to protect the Catholic population from persecution, the real trouble started when that all changed.
And to think people wonder why I have no time for religion, even though I have been both Christened (church of Scotland) and later baptised (Roman Catholic)…
Religion is like a cheap police force… the ancient peoples of the world tried to explain existence with various superstitious beliefs… sun worship etc. but religion in all it’s forms are now only used to control the masses (you can decide yourselves if that pun was intended).
And now… shockaroony… they’re trying to use it to control us again…
I’d imagine if the sh!t hits the fan, it will again be the Westminster government that would become the target… not the people of Scotland… especially if we are an independent country at the time…
Final thought… will Team America invade NI to fight it’s (futile) war on terror?
Still think governments and armies should read The War Of The Flea… learn why a war on terror is futile.
JLT – totally agree but with the significant sensitivities around the “Ulster” problem I feel it is important to use the terms accurately. My mother was from Donegal, Ulster, but had to explain to people that she was from Ireland, not Northern Ireland. Pedantic maybe but wars have grown from casual errors!
Rev.
Regarding the Trimble story Kate Higgins on the Daily Politics today put Gary Robertson and BBC in place regarding this story,also, Ian Smart looked very uncomfortable on the same program,worth a look.
Trimble and his like are fuckwits
To be fair a mouse farting in an empty room would spark violence with some in Northern Ireland.
I don’t pretend to understand every nuance of the troubles over there but personally watching from afar it became pretty fucking tiresome some time ago watching fuckwits squabble over who’s version of mind control (or religion as some call it) is better.
@ Cameron B – the VNB facebook page is ticking along, I’ve still got one facebook profile that hasn’t been barred.
I’m afraid I don’t facebook. I can only find an official page(?), which doesn’t really look that interesting. What happened to the fun one?
Without us – all that was left was tumbleweed, the fb page is full of all the usual cyberunionist suspects.
selling papers is that what they are doing? Here was me thinking they were just liers.
I hope there’s a disclaimer letter from Trimble in next weeks ST and an apology from said paper, in big print.