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Wings Over Scotland


How it’s done

Posted on October 05, 2013 by

If you’re one of our non-Luddite readers and possess a Twitter account, you’ll probably  have noticed a flurry of comment a couple of weeks back about a debate at Abertay University in Dundee (the UK’s centre of educational excellence for the videogames industry, among other things), in which the SNP’s Stewart Hosie – debating Labour’s Lord Robertson – turned round a large pre-debate majority of 59% to 21% for the Union and converted it into a clear majority of 51-38 for Yes. (A stunning 25% swing.)

Splendidly, the whole thing is now available on video. Enjoy and learn.

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    1. 09 10 13 09:29

      Scottish Independence: Lifting The Veil | Speaker's Corner

    2. 21 04 14 14:15

      Yes winning 63% to 33% after three post debate polls : Business for Scotland

    202 to “How it’s done”

    1. Thepnr says:

      Other than fear Better Together have no arguments. Just keep talking and spread the word to as many as you meet.

    2. Ivan McKee says:

      Well worth watching all the way through.
       
      Stewart was absolutely awesome.
       
      By the summing up you could see that George knew he was well beaten, same-old random recycled ‘we’re all doomed’ nonsense.

    3. James Westland says:

      Just what is it abour George Robertson? Does he never learn? There was that business in 95 at the Great Debate where he got into a right fankle over the “second choice” And then there was that remark about “devolution will kill nationalism stone dead”
       
      You’d think he’d learn just to relax in ermine and keep his mooth shut….

    4. Albalha says:

      Yes I watched it all this morning. For me the most interesting section is between 50 and 1 03, when students are asking questions, not only that, but responding to points that are raised between themselves.
       
      In the main coherent, well made points but invasion from Iraq or Afghanistan on one hand and the loss of BBC programmes on the other, rather odd, but easily dealt with.

    5. Karamu says:

      Never heard him speak before but as soon as Stewart opens his mouth I liked him.

    6. creigs17707repeal says:

      This video perfectly exemplifies the point constantly being made by the YES campaign – that once people are engaged in the debate and learn about the issues the end result is invariably a YES win. What I found particularly pleasing about the outcome is the large swing from NO (59% down to  38%) to YES rather than the Undecideds (21% down to 11%) alone holding the key to success.
       
      YES Scotland.

    7. HulloHulot says:

      Wait, is that the same George Robertson who flailed around like a sweaty octopus trying to unhook a bra in the Great Debate?

      If it is, I now know how I’m going to entertain myself this evening.
       
      That he continues to participate in these things really seems like trusting the one bit of optimism he knows over experience.

    8. ianbrotherhood says:

      Don’t know if it’s a facelift, new wallies, or what, but Robertson’s had some kind of makeover. Sadly, for No Scotland, he can’t disguise the flea-ridden poverty of his dog-tired arguments. 
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfWEPu0w-7w

    9. I know its not a scientific poll, but of the cards returned after the Yes Edinburgh North & Leith public meeting last Thursday, the results were 

      Yes – 89.5%
      Undecided – 3.9%
      No – 6.6%
       
      good eh? 

    10. John Gibson says:

      Any more ‘Vile Separatist’ abuse for not using Twitter and I’m going to vote for Johann Lamont .
      Only kidding.

    11. Doug Daniel says:

      Excellent, that’ll save me having to watch CSI dubbed into German or something tonight.

    12. Dan777a says:

      If you don’t have time to watch the whole thing then I’d recommend skipping to 54 minutes to hear a stupid question from a student and then staying til 57 minutes to hear an excellent take down from one of her peers.
       
      i also like Robertsons “scotland doesnt have culture” bit aswell

    13. annie says:

      I think we should all be thankful that Stuart Hosie recovered from his stroke and can still make the case for independence – I bet even George Robertson was convinced if he could only allow himself to admit it.

    14. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ John Gibson – Come and hide in the non-Luddite cellar while the rest of them get deported to far places such as Dunoon and other places where their fancy phones are reduced to 2G. No more Twitter for them. No more chips and sauce for them, just choirs of angels over Ben Doon and whippy icecream at every Scottish Post Office.
       

    15. southernscot says:

      @Doug Daniel,
      Quite often in continental Europe they broadcast the original soundtrack as well, just check audio select (or called something similar) and you can change the soundtrack.
      Spent a week in Barcelona on last night of holiday mucking about with remote while watching the Simpsons switch the language from catalan back to original English. 🙂

    16. Tony Little says:

      Apparently there will be another similar debate in a couple of weeks, worth looking out for. Next time it would be nice for the YES side to go second. 
       
      Stewart Hosie was excellent. 

    17. Juteman says:

      Thanks for posting the video Stu, I was hoping to see the debate.
      My overall feeling after watching it was, out with the old, in with the new.
      The union is finished. We are lucky enough to be here in history to watch its demise.

    18. Ron Burgundy says:

      Time Stewart Hosie was back from exile after a YES next year – he is an underused asset. Convincing, articulate and passionate.

      Robertson says he is a patriot but is case is threadbare and tired. He hopes that Scots will, through fear, accept their status in a failing state.

      I saw a film recently called Escape from Sobibor, which was based on a true story from the Holocaust. During the final scene the inmates in this death camp staged a mass escape and broke out into the forests under fire from the few camp guards left.

      But instead of fleeing into the Polish forests, some inmates chose not to follow the others to freedom but instead stood to attention on the barracks square rejecting the calls of their fellow prisoners and refused to escape.

      Interesting what fear can do to people.

    19. Juteman says:

      Robertson is a Scottish Berlosconi, even down to the dodgy black hair.
      In his own words, he mentioned being in the SNP and CND when younger, before the shiny baubles of Westminster beckoned.

    20. Eddie says:

      Well, I tried to engage with a U-KOK supporter today and she wouldn’t speak to me.  None are so blind as those who will not see.

    21. orkers says:

      After Eck stands down Nicola has a rival.
      On A ‘Yes’ Vote he’ll have to be found a seat at Holyrood.
      We have politicians that can charismatically talk the hind legs of a donkey as Mr Hosie proved.
      How can we lose the vote with people like that speaking on our behalf?

    22. patronsaintofcats says:

      Robertson: “Scotland has no distinct culture or language.”
      Words. Fail. Me. WTF?

    23. velofello says:

      And if one has a Twitter account but never uses it what is one?And never been able to opt for a sentence when a paragraph is on offer.is one a Verbosite perchance?

      I haven’t watched the clip -granweans-as good as Salmond v Robertson when Salmond weighed in at welterweight?

    24. Thepnr says:

      One thing that is very important and we that support Independence should never forget is that those fellow countrymen who are currently No supporters or undecided are on the surface not any different from you or I.
       
      Other than the political activists that oppose Independence the rest are up for grabs. I believe that the Yes side has far more ordinary people willing to work hard to persuade others that Independence has to be the best choice for them and their families.
       
      We just need to keep chipping away, don’t be embarrassed to wear your heart on your sleeve, I have done and sometimes you’ll get abuse but I just laugh at them you should do the same. 10 minutes with a truly undecided is all it takes, stick in there.

    25. Gray says:

      ianbrotherhood,
      Don’t know if it’s a facelift, new wallies, or what, but Robertson’s had some kind of makeover.
      I think he applied the “Barnett Formula” 🙂

    26. david says:

      invaded by iraq and afghanistan, bloody nora

    27. Triangular Ears says:

      What a fantastic watch. I thought Hosie came across a bit more considered and perhaps less confrontational than we see on TV, but I guess the forum leads itself to that. His points were clear, concise with very little fluff and repetition. Robertson was backtracking and going off on tangents all over the place.
       
      As for the students, there were some encouraging moments and points made, but still some real eye-rolling stuff about the BBC and theoretical invasions. It would be interesting to find out if these poorly informed students were part of the group that changed their minds.

    28. Jingly Jangly says:

      I thought the funniest moment was when Robertson tried to explain what a Quisling was
      No George,  it was not the Irishman called Joyce who was better known as Lord Haw Haw
      but after Vidkum Quisling of Norway who seized power in Norway and collaborated with the
      Nazi (Oh no its got dark and I cant see my keyboard, the punctuation Nazi Stu will ban me for not putting a thingly in after Nazi) Anyway Mr Hosie was brilliant, pity he could not get a response into Robertsons lies at the end.
      So  Far every debate I have seen or heard that has had a vote before and after has come out for YES. We just need to get the critical mass and its going to be a lot easier than I thought several months ago.

    29. Derick Tulloch says:

      sorry but twitter is pointless – the electric version of drunk men arguing in a pub.
      that’s the polite version
       

    30. gordoz says:

      It really is an inspirational watch and to see the differences in the young people commenting on what they are seeing presented in front of them.

      See the difference in the articulation and enquiry of the 2 boys staments as opposed to the less coherent and biassed (postulation of campaign for No) from the girls (very sad for the girl side ladies sorry).

      No matter how many times Lord/Baron Robertson of ‘who cares where’ tries the sad and tired aims of the failing ‘fear/ smear campaign’ (and he was at it with Stewart Hosie last night), peaple can see through it. The young people in this clip seem to be persuaded by positivity, aspiraation and above all clear facts.

      Robertson is a Labour chameleon politician with a severe lack of morale fibre. Honestly when you can rhyme off all the New states of the former Soviet Block and then disparage your own peoples aspirations without blushing; now that takes some neck, but then that is what this man (and his party), has played on for years. His attempts to inculcate his audience fell flat each time he spoke.

      But it is so invigourating  to see time running out for the ‘unionist busted flush’ and such Labour Dinosaurs as the Baron, when students can listen to such poor argument and then interject with the traditional cough into the hand whilst imparting a response of ‘bullshit’ as a modern day retort to such garbage from BT.

      Stewart Hosie and the Students of Abertay University, thankyou so much.

    31. Lewis says:

      Mr. Rev Stu, I think that there is something that deserves your attention and you could even write about.
      Today in Ireland there was a referendum regarding the abolition of Senate. All the polls predicted an easy victory for the Yes, at larger margins that the ones currently predicted for the independence referendum.
      So what happened? The other side won. And this is not an unique case. Usually in Ireland, where since you can only make amendments in constitution by popular vote, they are fairly common, the result is always much different from what polls said. It`s harder to make accurate polls for referenda, because they don’t happen every year. There are not tested and proved methods that you can use, by just slightly adjusting them every 4 years.
      The ones who take polls as the gospel (usually for normal elections they are accurate enough and I do take them seriously) truth should know it.

    32. john king says:

      james westland says
      “You’d think he’d learn just to relax in ermine and keep his mooth shut….”
      That’s the problem for these people though James,
      post a no vote they know a non UK citizen cannot hold a title which allows them to sit in the lords, end of,
       they’ll lose their little nest eggs , hence the absolute insistence of theirs that the (separation ) of Scotland will be a disaster (for them) 

    33. Paula Rose says:

      Robertson: “Scotland has no distinct culture or language.”
      That is appalling, watched that bit several times and cannot work out what he means. If he was deaf and blind I could understand, but I presume he has all his senses.

    34. david says:

      glad too hear the scottish honorable lords will be removed and lose their dishonest perks, hope its true

    35. HulloHulot says:

      For those who want to upset themselves by looking at a photo of George Robertson with his gob open and his statement that
      “In Flanders, in Belgium, they say “why can’t we become an independent state?” Or Catalonia, in Spain, where a million and a quarter people marched down the streets. They say they want to become an independent state, but they’ve got language, and culture, and all these sort of things — we [Scotland] don’t have any of that.”
       
      floating next to his face, you can do so here

    36. gordoz says:

      ‘scottish honorable lords’   Eh I don’t think so; surely you realise they’ll opt for  UK citizenship (to keep their titles and goons)

    37. Doug Daniel says:

      Watching it now. Hosie’s opening arguments are some of the most passionate I have seen so far – the ante is well and truly being upped, I sense.
       
      Just started Georgie boy’s bit, and already I’m amazed – Hosie just went straight into it, whereas George feels the need to go on and on about how they’re just starting uni, how he used to go there, how he used to stay in the digs up the road etc. Typical of someone who knows they can’t simply rely on the strength of their arguments. He needs to win people over by making them feel like he is one of them. “Oh, you wouldn’t vote against me, I’m one of you guys! (Ignore the ermine, though…)”

    38. john king says:

      What really worries me is the absolute dearth of understanding of young (and not so young) people of world affairs and specifically Scottish politics,
      the  question from a youngster there asking how can a Scottish defence force stop an invasion by Afghanistan left me feeling berift,
      no I don’t blame the kid ,I blame her schooling I blame the politicians,
      I blame the media,
      I blame her parents for not giving her at least a basic understanding of the world and Scotland’s place in it,
       but it gives an insight into how not only how childlike minds think but uninformed adults as well !

    39. Doug Daniel says:

      “I’m a proud and patriotic Scot” – there it is. Didn’t take him long. Straight after trying to scare people off a Yes vote by making them feel overwhelmed by the size and seriousness of the occasion. And the debate is not about “breaking up the UK”, so why bang on about it like that, other than to scare people?

    40. Triskelion says:

      Is one year enough to spread the word?

    41. david says:

      i would expect honorable scottish lords to do anything required to keep their noses in the trough, taking uk citizenship sounds painless

    42. call me dave says:

      Triskelion
      Some on here have converted a NO to a YES within a short  conversation.
      Which reminds me about Margaret (receptionist Dundee labour old school)
      Gave her info, about 2 weeks ago, about certain internet sites including  ‘Better Together’ ; Labour Hame ; Yes Scotland ; WoS and NNS.
      Gone from NO to almost YES without me prompting her.
      I think YES will do it. 

    43. gordoz says:

      “the  question from a youngster there asking how can a Scottish defence force stop an invasion by Afghanistan “
      To quote Homer; “We’re not laughing at her … we’re laughing towards her”
      Her teachers should be ashamed.

    44. Thepnr says:

      It’s definitely not the young lassies fault, yes we can look at the teachers, parents and friends. Also though, this is the mindset that project fear hope to foster. It may seem ludicrous to most readers here but obviously that is not the case for all.
       
      If you hear similar from young (or old) people you know, don’t be angry just calmly explain why it is in the MSM’s interest to lie to the population on behalf of the establishment. They will listen, then maybe they’ll get angry.

    45. The Man in the Jar says:

      I have to admit that I wasn’t looking forward to one and a half hours of debate but it was reasonably easy to watch. I recommend anyone to at least give it a go.
       
      Robertson a bit past his sell by date. Old and tired just like the union. “Stamps, uniforms and anthems” scary stuff eh? Robertson was my MP once and I had occasion to require his help let me assure you that he is not the sharpest pencil in the box. how on earth he got the NATO gig is beyond me.
       
      Bottom line Stuart Hosie had a positive message George Robertson had a load of recycled old guff. No wonder that there was a large swing to yes after the debate. It dose illustrate the positive point very well and should give any independence minded person a lot of hope. 

    46. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I had the interesting experience of being SNP PPC against George in Hamilton for a short time in the 1980s before business pressure forced me to give up. A section of the Labour Party (Burnank area) tried to have him deselected as they judged he was no socialist . They were of course absoutely correct in their judgement. He used to scoot into Hamilton on a Saturday about once a month from his nice home in Dunblane and do several quickfire surgeries and shoot off again mid afternoon
      George belongs to the Alastair Darling School of politics – that is”he rose without trace”. His elevation to huge high position was achieved by his silent compliant nature which made him the perfect Sec Gen of NATO (from the US point of view) and I have never come across a coherent or thought provoking political statement from the “Baron”.
      Oddly I now find myself as along term resident of his area of birth and he is not universally respected here. Could be something to do with a six figure sum he gets annually from Western Ferries as a non executive director of that company which has moved heavenand earth to prevent the restitution of the big popular ferry service from Dunoon to Gourockagainst the wishes of most Dunoon travellers. 

    47. Doug Daniel says:

      Oh christ, the first student that speaks is hardly a great advert for Scottish education…

      Or the third one…

    48. david says:

      the young lassie could be deliberately asking this nonsense as johann lamont, curran etc do constantly, project fear after all. she could be a bit dim. she could be an ibrox attender. bit unfair to blame all teachers etc

    49. Doug Daniel says:

      Oh but the fourth one is a great lad! More like this, please!

    50. sneddon says:

      Scotland has no distinct culture or language Ouch! that’s going to come back and bite them.  I’m impressed with the fact that there will be follow up sessions in the next few weeks by the university.  Well done Abertay.  Right now to watch the whole thing.

    51. ScotFree1320 says:

      The student from Germany gets it spot on. When you’re looking in from outside the box, it can be easier to see what’s going on than from viewing from inside the box.

    52. sneddon says:

      David- Ibrox attende doesn’t necessarilty mean unionist.  If you mean unionist say unionist otherwise this thread will be a repeat of so many other threads pointing that out.  I know personally several teddy bears who are very much YES supporters

    53. Paul Kelly says:

      Is this the same Lord George Robertson
      Who tried to force through Nato’s article 5 mutual defense commitment on the premise that  Iraq were about to attack Turkey. Then fell out with France Germany and Belgium when they refused to sign and give NATO backing to the war in Iraq.
       
      The Lord Robertson
      who received £40,000 from the military aerospace company Smiths Group, and £32,000 from Weir Group, which sells weapons systems to the Royal Navy. Weir is facing a possible Serious Fraud Office investigation for allegedly paying bribes in Iraq.
      The George Robertson who
      Despite politicians and Lords being filmed exploiting their political contacts and knowledge to cash in after they have left office (cash for lobbying).
      Lord Robertson said this is “rubbish and not valid”. 
       
      The same Lord Robertson,
      who confidently predicted the vote for devolution would leave the SNP stone dead,”Scottish Nationalism will be confined to a shop on the Royal Mile selling tartan tea towels”?
      .And who when asked recently how this was going said “It had yet,  to be proved wrong”.
       
      The same Lord Robertson who confidently predicted this time last year that president Assad was on the verge of hanging up his boxing gloves.
       
       
       The George Robertson who said
      Scotland plays the role of a  ‘kept woman’ and  just doesn’t realize it?
      Better Together have given him a debating roll?
      Surely they are not that stupid.
      Do they have a death wish?

    54. david says:

      yes i agree, shouldnt generalise, just trying to say the silly stuff bout invasions could be deliberate

    55. AyeRight says:

      Any person who has a need to explain themselves as “I’m a proud and patriotic Scot” obviously has a serious lack of self confidence, a need to explain their character, and is looking for a crowd to hide in. 
      Pride and patriotism are certainly not unique to Scots.

    56. Thepnr says:

      “Surely they are not that stupid.
      Do they have a death wish?”

      Yep, correct on both counts.

    57. david says:

      self preservation at its most desperate

    58. Jingly Jangly says:

      RE Ibrox as a metaphor for a No Voter, I have several Rangers Supporting Mates who will be voting Yes, one even hates the Queen and wants a republic!!!!

    59. Linda's back says:

      On Wednesday I had a reunion dinner with ten former managerial colleagues in the financial services industry and surprise surprise the independence debate was raised not by me as most of them knew my YES views.
      Out of these ten four were probably going to vote Yes and four no with two who were unlikely to vote. This was much better than I expected.

    60. Doug Daniel says:

      At the end, George Robertson spends most of his time speaking about how important Nato is, instead of answering the questions.
       
      NEWSFLASH FOR GEORGE ROBERTSON: The Scottish Government will negotiate Scotland remaining in Nato. So, you wasted your time there.
       
      It’s almost like he was just waffling because he didn’t have any real answers…

    61. macdoc says:

      Stewart Hosie was brilliant and must be used more often in this kind of format. I liked his comment on how he would never describe George Robertson’s British nationalism as a virus. That statement should really hit home for the people that are voting No because they hate nationalism. 
       
      Unfortunately the arguments such as Afghanistin or Iraq attacking Scotland are the kind of childlike arguments used by people voting No. Its all too familiar to see (partiuculary young girls) people on twitter stating with extreme confidence that only uneducated morons would vote for independence without a hint of irony. Its a firm held belief and its 100% down to extreme ignorance.
       
      A true British Nationalist is a fairly rare creature in Scotland and I can at least acknowledge their reasoning for wanting Scotland to remain a part of Britain. By far the majority are just woefully uninformed, its why I cringe when people state we have to convert the undecideds. We have to target the No’s aswell because the majority are of this opinion not because they have done their research and have come to this conclusion but because they have done almost zero research and have poor understanding of international and national politics. 

    62. Lewis Benzie says:

      Your not disadvantage your not repressed … but your language will be subtitled & youll be portrayed as a stereotype.

    63. Ian V says:

      I have a sixteen year old here and I am finding it near on impossible to get her interested in the debate. Her default position was as a no but a two minute conversation on the subject has changed her to yes.

      I believe the quality of UK politics had numbed her to the possibilities of something better “There all the same, nothing ever changes” 

      Thankfully I did manage to gain her attention for that two mins and that was enough, all she needed was a few facts.  

    64. Tamson says:

      @Dave McEwen Hill:
       
      Robertson was pretty much always a wrong ‘un. Look up the entry on him in the Powerbase website:
       
      http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/Lord_Robertson_of_Port_Ellen

    65. Doug Daniel says:

      That was a great video. Worth it just to see Stewart Hosie’s face every time Robertson told a lie (so quite often). The ending is incredible. Robertson just says the first thing that comes to mind, whether it’s true or not. Council Tax Freeze? Abolishing bridge tolls? Err, the Erskine bridge maybe, in the only region of Scotland Labour has ever given a toss about. I’m not sure many Dundonians use the Erskine bridge, unlike the Tay bridge and even the Forth road bridge…

    66. sneddon says:

      Well that was interesting especially the questions from the students.  Pretty much the same sort of questions as adult audiences I thought.  But I thought the questions some of the more ‘unsure’ students put  perhaps more an indication of their lack of life experience especially the question about the BBC, If they’d been to europe they’d have seen that the bbc broadcasts there as well.  I just hope they read the SG white paper themselves and not just wait to be spoonfed the answers to their questions.  After all,  learning to find out stuff from original source material is part of the student learning process in addition to critical thinking.  But I’m sure they know all that. 🙂 But overall I enjoyed the broadcast and the university and students should be commended for holding it and taking part.  

    67. sneddon says:

      Sorry meant to say as someone who is recovering from a stroke myself Mr Hosie has done a great job in his recovery and you’d never notice from his speech he’s had a stroke.  Well done Stewart.

    68. Derek Johnston says:

      Robertson: “Scotland has no distinct culture or language.”
      Words. Fail. Me. WTF?
      Like me in the eighties, that’s what he was taught in the sixties. His party’s curriculum, his party’s agenda. Still pisses me off I never got 1 minute of Scottish history at school, but got Battle of Hastings and Tudors. For real?

    69. Thepnr says:

      @macdoc
       
      I totally agree with your assertion that the No’s should be “targeted” as well as the undecided. The fact is, as I see it that someone starting from the No position is using their default position. They have always voted for X,Y or Z and so too did their parents etc. They have not yet looked at the possibilities an Independent Scotland can bring.
       
      A voter who currently intends to vote No can be persuaded to vote Yes. However I do not believe that once someone has committed to a Yes vote they can ever be convinced to change their mind and vote No.  This is our big advantage, just keep chipping away!

    70. Haartime says:

      Excellent debate but can I put a word in for the students. Having been at uni as a very mature student mixing with some students straight out of school it easy to forget how difficult it is for them to speak publicly in a new forum where they are often having to think in different ways. It can take quite a bit of courage to speak. So although some of the questions may seem ridiculous they may not have been meant to come out that way. 

      I often wonder what the BBC weather maps will look like without Scotland on them. Probably a bit sad with just a rump England and Wales and Northern Ireland but more importantly will we still have Judith?

    71. Jeannie says:

      Thought Stewart Hosie was excellent.  I also think Alex and Nicola could learn a lot from listening to the calm, precise way he delivers information.  It drives me crazy the way they run one sentence into another, sometimes making what they are saying difficult to follow.  Stewart showed respect for the needs of his audience and tailored his delivery accordingly. 
       
      Alex and Nicola….if you’re reading this – when you get to the end of a sentence, indicate it by dipping your voice (if it’s not a question), then pause before starting a new sentence.  People will follow what you’re saying more easily.  Stewart Hosie was spot on.

    72. Doug Daniel says:

      Sorry to spam the comments here folks, but two more points I’d like to make.
       
      1. Robertson told the audience to ask questions of the Yes side, without mentioning the No side, whereas Stewart said to go and read up on the facts and figures to satisfy their own curiosities. It’s an interesting difference. “Yes” campaigners welcome scrutiny, in fact we positively thrive on it, because we KNOW we have the answers. “No” campaigners only want people to ask questions of their opponents, because they know they don’t have a convincing argument for their side. They want to win by default, like a wrestling champion who gets himself disqualified or counted out on purpose because titles only change hands on pinfalls or submissions. It’s not news to any of us here, but it was interesting to see the two approaches so blatantly portrayed.
       
      2. This debate shows what Yes campaigners have been saying all along – if people get to hear a proper, civilised debate, they will support independence. No campaigners know it too, which is why the usually try and avoid these things. So now all we need to do is make sure every voter in Scotland gets themselves along to one of these debates…

    73. Alba4Eva says:

      I watched this whole thing from the poster who flagged it up on the last story.  BRILLIANT  :o)
       
      …ended up finding this tonight too.
      A story of the death of the cringe…

    74. The Man in the Jar says:

      On the subject of “All politicians are the same” Recently I had an attempt at sorting this accusation out with a very pro-union associate. He has been a shop steward in the GMB for a long time so is not exactly politically naive.
       
      This subject came up when I said that Alex Salmond is a conviction politician. It became obvious that my associate had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. I tryed and tryed to inform him that not all politicians are only “in it” for themselves seeking only power and wealth and that a conviction politician is “in it” because they have a conviction about how to make things better for everyone. I gave up after what seemed like ages as the look of incredibility was still etched upon his face.
       
      My conclusion is that if you are a unionist and you look at politics from their perspective and ignore everything else (like they do) then it appears that yes all politicians are the same.  
       
      Just to add that the same associate voted for the SNP at the last Holyrood election as a protest vote against an unpopular Labour candidate. He is 100% convinced that the SNP getting in was a fluke due to all the Labour protest votes. He also thinks that Labour will “romp home” at the next Holyrood election. There again having said that his opinions on welfare and immigration are straight out of the Daily Mail. And no I don’t waste my time trying to convert him to Yes. Some folk are truly beyond redemption. 

    75. call me dave says:

      This is what the lords think about independence.  27th June.
      OMG!  Too many obstacles and technicalities to overcome. We will never prosper.

      Don’t have any sharp implements or funny tablets next to you (if you indulge) because it will depress you greatly.  Something to view on a wet afternoon but needs to be understood. Patronising in the main. Were too small, too poor. They didn’t say to stupid. 

      That’s why AS gave a long run into the vote all of these questions which they raise have to be knocked on the head, and they are on a daily basis thank goodness.
       
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-lords-23069555

      PS: However five lords (maybe more)that have had a go in the debate within the public arena have proven to be damp squibs and have been utterly ousted and embarrassed.

      Lord Foulkes
      Lord Steel (his wife’s voting YES)
      Lord Robertson
      Lord Wallace
      Lord Forsyth

      They are not so keen a year on to try again and get on the telly. 
      Only the Earl of Mar had anything to say that had equity. He wanted a list of risks if Scotland stayed in the union. But spoilt it a wee bit early doors  by glad handing federalism.

    76. sneddon says:

      Jeanie – fair point but to be fair often AS and NS have to rush to get a word in. The students showed up many politicos and journalists who behave otherwise in regards to shutting up and letting folk answer.   In regard to Stewart’s  diction.  That’s one thing I learned to do during my speech therapy, after my stroke.  Like walking, I have sometimes to make a conscious effort to perform a task.  In speaking I enunciate every word clearly otherwise I feel I am slurring my words  so maybe Stewart has learned that as well.

    77. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Harrtime
      Judith scares the crap out of me! 🙁

    78. Jimbo says:

      Thanks for the video, Stu.
       
      Just finished watching it. Looks like those criminologists in the audience have the Unionists sussed.
       
      George Robertson was dire, to say the least. He looked shifty and could only come up with a constant flow of negativity – we cannae dae it – it’s too much trouble – why bother – we don’t have a culture. He should maybe try being honest and tell people its about self preservation – his and his Party’s. He should also try and smile now and again – but that can prove difficult if your face is full of botox.
       
      Also; I haven’t yet read the above posts so I don’t know if this has already been covered. Robertson claimed he was once called a Quisling by an SNP politician, and that Quisling was AKA Lord Haw Haw. You’d think he’d have had his script writer double check he got the script right. And what is it with these Unionists that they feel the need to declare their patriotism and how proud of their country they are? A guilty conscience perhaps?
       
      Stewart Hosie was excellent – factual, concise and came across as honest. I just wish he’d nailed the myth about the banks bailout before Robertson got the last word on it. It features often in the Unionists mantra of fear. Not criticising Hosie, he did really well, but surely the YES camp should know to expect by now that it will be brought up?

    79. Albalha says:

      O/T
      The journalists from Galiza, (Galicia) have ‘liked’ me on flickr. Anyway here are their images from the march and Rev Stu you make an appearance and @Arbroath1320.
       
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/pilaraymara/

    80. The Rough Bounds says:

      George Roberston says that Scotland has no distinct language or culture.
      Yet he also says that he is a proud and patriotic Scot.
       
      If we don’t have a distinct language(s) or culture then how can we be called Scots as there is nothing to define us?
      So what exactly would that leave Robertson to be proud of?

    81. ianbrotherhood says:

      “In Flanders, in Belgium, they say “why can’t we become an independent state?” Or Catalonia, in Spain, where a million and a quarter people marched down the streets. They say they want to become an independent state, but they’ve got language, and culture, and all these sort of things — we [Scotland] don’t have any of that.”
       
      I pray to all known Gods that this quote accompanies George Robertson like The Shadow of Death for each and every minute of his miserable life.
       
      We don’t have language? We don’t have culture? (And what class of ‘things’ do these belong to, George?)
       
      I’ve been hunting (for years) for the NATO press conference where he was questioned by Harold Pinter. I can still remember the embarrassment of watching a fellow ‘Scot’ speaking to one of the 20th century’s greatest writers as though he was a Primary-5 pupil who’d just been caught picking his nose.
       
      If the Union is a fatal illness, George Roberston is one of the suppurating, putrid, foul-smelling boils which appear just before the final convulsions kick-in and the body starts evacuating itself – Hosie did well to stay in his seat as the lies formed a spreading pool around the podium.
       
      No doubt, when Lord George has passed away, we’ll find out much more about him. Well, maybe 30 years later?
       
      Thirty years? Naw. Just remembered. It’ll be 100 years.
       
      (Must make a mental note to tell the weans to tell their grand-weans to watch out for release of particular documents. I’ll now STFU before I get meself in trouble.)

    82. Albalha says:

      Anyway back on topic. As I posted higher up I found the questions from the students very interesting, We can criticise the Iraq, Afghanistan question but they are young people.

      Perhaps misguided, ill informed, but there to be won over. And another student, not George or Stewart, made the case very well.

    83. Bob Leslie says:

      As a former teacher, I have to say that the presenter REALLY needs to work on his irritating verbal tic: every 4 or 5 words there’s an “em”. Any student in his class must find this highly distracting. Apart from that, great stuff. Thanks, Rev. Stu!

    84. Tattie-boggle says:

      i’m a patriotic scot and proud to be Scottish but really I think Scottish people are just shite and could nae  run fuck all  especially run a country an that. Pfffffffffffffffff

    85. Murray McCallum says:

      Stewart Hosie is a very good speaker and comes across as a caring and trustworthy person.
       
      How on earth did George Robertson reach the heights of Westminster politics? No wonder “Britain is broken” when people as devoid of inspiration and ingenuity as George were in the Cabinet!

    86. Hetty says:

      Very good, nice to have the young folk being given the opportunity to debate and discuss the pros and cons, and get some answers. Good results considering it was a more or less equal sided discussion. It’s exciting and great to see that some of the actual real facts are available to people so that they can make an informed choice. There will be resistance all the way, but maybe it’s time for the ‘no’ folk to accept that people are not stupid here in Scotland. It’s the future generations who will gain, both sides of the border because people will be less willing to accept Westminster rule to the detriment of their own communities and industries while the rich get richer.  

    87. ianbrotherhood says:

      re: meself, at 10.03 –
       
      The link at the foot of this comment is the closest I’ve ever found to the interview I watched ‘live’ – when Pinter is asking the question (at 49secs) in the press conference (April 30th 1999) I’m sure it was being addressed to Robertson, but his reply is not shown. It could’ve been another place and/or time, but I’m certain that Pinter was in the same room, while Robertson was at the podium.
       
      Seriously – does anyone know where that footage can be found? It shows Robertson at the height of his ‘power’ (and he’s never ever let anyone forget how high he rose) so it’s important documentary evidence.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKsuikz1HSs

    88. Yodhrin says:

      Anyone who’s not seen it already and fancies another wee laugh at Lord “Nae Culture” Robertson and his Great Big Book of Unionist Fables should check out his truly atrocious performance at the Royal Society of Edinburgh debate on defence and international relations; youtu.be/qfb8JNTpsSw

      Fair warning, if you’re the type to get worked up at this sort of behaviour rather than finding it funny, have a few ibuprofen on hand because the spike in blood pressure will give you a fine headache, hah.

    89. Tim F-G says:

      I’ve finally watched the youtube video, and thanks Rev, for sharing. I’ve bookmarked it for future reference. Superb stuff  from Stewart Hosie. Dumbest question has to be, can we still watch Sherlock on the BBC post-indy? Don’t get me wrong, I like Sherlock a lot, but SERIOUSLY: the well-being of future generations and the prospect of a proper democracy is at stake and that lassie is worried about fucking telly programmes? What the hell?

    90. The Rough Bounds says:

      I remember Robertson taking part in a debate with Alex Salmond some long years ago. George said something about Scotland being independent would cause all sorts of problems if Scots went abroad as they would have all the bother of having to change their Scottish currency into the local dosh.

      Alex just put his hand inside his jacket and pulled out his plastic debit/credit card and explained how he could go to any country in Europe and he would find a hole in the wall machine that would allow him to make withdrawals in any of the local currencies.

      Robertson’s face was a picture. I don’t think he had actually heard of international banking and the hole in the wall facility. Astounding.
       
      A pal of mine said at the time that George Robertson was thick and it could be proved because he just kept on saying yes if he was invited to take part in any debates. He said if he had any brains at all he would just say that he was unavailable for any particular debate because he was going to be washing his hair that night.

    91. Morag says:

      Stewart Hosie is fantastic.  Haven’t got to Robertson yet.

    92. cirsium says:

      @ianbrotherhood 10.03
      That’s a gem of a statement from Lord Robertson.  It deserves a place alongside

      Willie Rennie   “To start talking about Scotland being under the cosh and undervalued by others may just stir up beliefs that Scotland should somehow be better. That’s what I think is dangerous.”

      Lord Foulkes  “The SNP are on a very dangerous tack. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the border in a number of areas.”

      Interviewer: ”Is that a bad thing?”

      Foulkes: “No, but they are doing it deliberately.”!!

    93. Morag says:

      So far, Robertson sounds like he’s arguing for Yes….

    94. ianbrotherhood says:

      @The Rough Bounds (10.42) –
       
      Ha! Good one.
       
      Mind you, by the looks of his ‘crowning glory’ these days, that wouldn’t be much of an excuse either – he could leave that with his Ma to wash, and she’d have it dried, ironed, and done by the time he got back. I’m sure he has a ‘spare’ in the briefcase for such emergencies.
       
      George Robertson is a permanent embarrassment to everyone who has ever been associated with him.

    95. Morag says:

      I thought our new resolution was to avoid insulting unionist spokesmen and denigrating their personal appearance?

    96. Morag says:

      Hey, he’s finished and he didn’t actually say anything at all.

    97. ianbrotherhood says:

      re; meself again –
       
      ‘In a powerful condemnation of the war, Pinter described the NATO onslaught against Serbia as “a bandit action, committed with no serious consideration of the consequences, ill-judged, ill-thought, miscalculated, an act of deplorable machismo”.

      Pinter was shown questioning British Defence Minister George Robertson at a news conference. The playwright, citing the Geneva Convention outlawing military attacks on civilian targets, demanded to know how the bombing of a Serbian TV station could be described as anything other than murder. “Mr. Pinter has obviously got a new occupation now but I know his views,” was the arrogant reply from Robertson. He justified the bombing by claiming that such targets were the “brains behind the brutality”, and “part and parcel of the apparatus that is driving ethnic genocide”.’
       
      The full article is here:
      http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/05/pint-m07.html
      …but I still can’t find the footage. That’s all-important – you need to see Robertson’s face when he realises he’s not responding to the type of ‘BBC’ person he’s used to – he’s dealing with a guy who became a Nobel Laureate just a few years later.

    98. DMyers says:

      I have to say, I enjoyed Robertson’s dyed-black hair.  It was as if he was there in fancy dress as Roger Moore.

    99. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Morag
      ‘I thought our new resolution was to avoid insulting unionist spokesmen and denigrating their personal appearance?’
       
      I’m not aware of any ‘resolution’, but thanks for sharing.

    100. david says:

      even johann lamont?

    101. Votadini Jeannie says:

      Finally got the chance to watch this all the way through and I have to say, I’ve always been a fan of Stewart Hosie from occasional interviews on the news, but in a scenario like this he excelled himself. He’s definitely a future Cabinet Minister for Scotland. 
       
      Once you hear the facts it really is no contest, and it’s great to see the students responding so well to a compelling argument.

    102. call me dave says:

       
      david
      Especially!   LOL.
      Morag, it’s like herding cats.
       
       

    103. Murray McCallum says:

      “Scotland has no distinct culture or language.”
       
      There goes George’s gigs at Burns suppers. His agent will also take a hit in commission.

    104. Training Day says:

      Not a stunning insight, but what this proves is that if we get information to inertia No voters we win. If BBC Better Together succeed in stifling and poisoning the debate – which is clearly their tactic – then we lose. It’s that simple.

    105. david says:

      apart from the negativity of lord robertsons speeches he also made a huge mistake of bigging himself up to the students. i amagine he thought his grand title and positions held would impress the youthful audience when he really just came across as a boasting careerist,

    106. Morag says:

      I’m not aware of any ‘resolution’, but thanks for sharing.
       
      You were somewhere else when Stuart asked posters to concentrate on substantive points rather than mock the appearance of the opposition?  Mocking someone because you believe he’s wearing a wig doesn’t seem entirely the sort of post he was trying to encourage.  Just saying.

    107. Murray McCallum says:

      Well I think Lord George Robertson’s jet black wig looked very distinguished.
       
      The positive case for the Lord’s syrup.

    108. david says:

      im stopping using titles like lord, sir, duke etc. it promotes the class system and gives the impression you respect these individuals which in the case of foulkes, mcconnell and many more i certainly dont.

    109. david says:

      so there

    110. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Morag-
      If you’re still around, please give us your take on this:
      ‘Defence Secretary George Robertson angrily rejected a suggestion by the playwright Harold Pinter that the Nato bombing of civilians in Yugoslavia amounted to an act of murder.
      Pinter asked whether, given that the Geneva Convention Act states that civilians shall not be the object of an attack unless they have taken a direct part in hostilities, Mr Robertson could really describe the killing of civilians at the Belgrade television station last week as anything else than an act of murder.
      Mr Robertson replied: “I deny and reject that absolutely, completely.” He insisted: “The media acts as an extension of the brains behind the brutality, that’s why they have been a target.”‘
      http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/30/balkans11
       
      Please, Morag, examine that statement by Robertson – then tell me why this character shouldn’t be pilloried by all means available to anyone.
      If ‘justice’ means anything, ‘Lord’ Robertson wouldn’t be participating in lectures to students in Dundee. or anywhere else – he would be in a prison.
       

    111. Morag says:

      You know, it’s just so much better having a proper debate without people being interrupted and talked over.  The BBC should try it sometime.

    112. david says:

      i agree with mr brotherhood

    113. tartanfever says:

      Interesting viewing. 
      What i fail to understand is how 38% of students would still vote ‘No’ even after hearing the evidence based arguments from Hosie compared to the rambling rubbish from Robertson.
      As for the students, some of them should be ashamed. The majority of them were unable to even ask a simple question, preferring to ramble on until their lecturer butted in. If you do not have the innate ability to research and come up with a coherent, intelligent point or question, then don’t.
      Yes, I realise we shouldn’t be critical because we want them to vote Yes or whatever, but when some criticism needs to be voiced, it should. 
      Christ, all you had to do was pick up one of the morning papers and repeat verbatim whatever stupid unionist plot featured on the front page and you would have come across as at least being able to construct a question.
       

    114. Morag says:

      I was only pointing out that Stu had laid down a few house rules.  Since some people seem to disagree with this, and intend to go on denigrating the personal appearance of the unionist spokesmen, maybe they should take it up with him.

    115. Morag says:

      Tartanfever, I appreciate your points, but I think there are other things to consider.  First, it takes more than an hour or so to change some minds.  I suspect many of those who still voted No will go away and think about it some more.  Second, they’re teenagers.  With the best will in the world, many get tongue-tied when they’re called to ask a question under these conditions.  They’ll get better, as they do it more often.

    116. Slow bongo floyd says:

      Aberdeenshire school pupils have voted against Scottish independence in a mock referendum.
      A total of 8,718 voted no, with 2,847 voting yes, after the count was held at Meldrum Academy.
       
      Keep dreaming!

    117. david says:

      when your opponents continually insult your intelligence and insult you personally , the high ground is the best ground, but getting to that high ground can be tough

    118. ianbrotherhood says:

      Cheers David (12.01)
       
      Appreciated.

    119. Murray McCallum says:

      “The media acts as an extension of the brains … that’s why they have been a target”‘
       
      Does that mean Glenn Campbell is safe if Scotland is ever bombed?

    120. AmadeusMinkowski says:

      For those unfamiliar with the SNP MP’s, Stewart Hosie and Angus Robertson are both totally AMAZING; I’ve watched them both in action on various occasions, and have been more than impressed.
      Combine that with the amazing Salmond, Sturgeon and Swinney, and you have a SPECTACULAR line up of talent which the other political parties could only dream of. 
      I have ofter wondered about the why there is such paucity of talent across the other UK political parties, and come to the conclusion, that when you have a cause founded on Truth and seeking Justice, you attract a certain type of pure, incorruptible imaginative types, that the more venal causes cannot. QED.
       
      creigs17707repeal 
      The percentage swing away from NO was about 33%, while the percentage swing away from Don’t Know was about 50%, which is consistent with an increasing probability of resistance to YES as one moves deeper into the NO mindset!
       

    121. tartanfever says:

      Morag,
      I didn’t see one person being ‘called’ to ask a question.
      I did see lots of people putting their hands up in the air and volunteering to try and ask a question.
      Completely different.
      The girl that asked about ‘Sherlock’ with the horrendous pre-amble. 
      “yeah, like it’s really silly ..erm.. but me and my sisier were talking erm.. this is really silly… but erm…we really like Sherlock and Doctor Who and we thought… Oh my God !…what of we can’t see them….and then about the banks..’
      as opposed to:
      ‘Will I still be able to watch my favourite BBC TV programmes if we vote Yes?’
      Just a personal theory, but thats what a facebook, twitter  and U-tube generation have given us, the misguided belief that others actually give a shit about each other’s personal tastes and really want them to hear them described in the most personal fashion.
      Do I care if people were watching Dr Who while having a dump, eating a Big Mac or sending a bloody tweet? – No
      Without this shit we would just have people asking questions, like we used to.

    122. Truth says:

      @ianbrotherhood
      No video, but I did find this ancient “BBC Online Network” page covering Robertson’s reply.

    123. Morag says:

      Tartanfever, I see where you’re coming from, but I also believe I might have made as big an idiot of myself when I was that age.  You have this great thing you want to ask, but unless you have written it down and edited it to make it sound sober and sensible, and then read it, it can come out rather differently from what you hoped.
       
      I agree, the Sherlock and Doctor Who girl would have been better off shutting up.  She said what was in her mind, and showed her mind to be a very shallow place.

    124. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Morag–
       
      Your Praetorian behaviour may be well-intended, but your position crumbles when faced with ‘unfortunate’ facts – you have made plain just how far your ‘scientific’ mind can range.
       
      If you choose to self-censor, that’s your business, but please do yourself a big favour – don’t piggy-back whatever ‘seems’ to be the prevalent orthodoxy. It just makes you appear intellectually constipated.

    125. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Truth (12.23)-
       
      Thanks so much! Never saw that bit before.
       
      All counts.
       
      It did happen.
       
      It did. It did.
       
      It did!
       
      Seriously – thanks.

    126. Morag says:

      Ian, I have little idea what you are on about, but it sounds like a personal attack which I’m not going to respond to.
       
      I was only pointing out that Stu had requested that posters stick to certain behaviour codes.  You clearly want to ignore that, so I’ll say no more about it.

    127. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Morag-
       
      ‘Behaviour codes’.
       
      ???
       
      !!!
       
      Morag – seriously: fuck right off, eh?

    128. rabb says:

      Ian,
      I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.

      Whether we like it or not, politicians like Robertson will never face justice for their actions. He lost more and more moral fibre with each rung reached on the ladder of power. Pinter himself alluded to the relationship between power and moral high ground. He undoubtedly feels that he still occupies that territory. To a degree he’s probably correct.

      Some may shoot me down here but my view is that politicians of his ilk (Blair, Darling, Bush, Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne, McConnell, Foulkes) are weak of character. They have been too weak to resist human nature and slid into a life of lining their own nest at the expense of the people that put them there.

      Derek Bateman’s blogg has been enlightening but I still feel he has been somewhat naive in his view that the BBC is just badly managed and not a state propaganda tool. The powers that be DO have control over this and all other media. They all dance to the tune for their wee slice of pie.

      This doesn’t happen to all politicians and sadly it’s those who have the courage of their convictions that in the end are cast out. When they dare to do something different they’re cut off at the knees, portrayed as mad or not to be trusted by a willing media.
       
      Morag,
      I’m new to politics (I woke up only last year) but let me tell you this. Despite your wealth of experience and knowledge of the subject – to me Robertson and the rest of his unionist bedfellows are greedy selfish bastards who care only about their wealth & standing and not a bloody jot about the people who put them their (real Scots). The utter contempt shown for their ain folk is absolutely shocking.
      To that end I will reserve the right to call these people anything i bloody well like.
       
      CameronB,
      Please note that this took every fibre of my being (more than Cameron’s attempt to save the union anyway) not to turn it into Roger Mellie’s profanisaurus! I’m really trying to be good with the swearing 🙂

    129. Morag says:

      Rabb, you may have misunderstood me.  My point is that there is so much to criticise in Robertson’s behaviour and character that it is really unnecessary (and counterproductive) to mock him for (possibly) wearing a wig.

    130. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Morag-
       
      Okay.
       
      Enlighten us.
       
      How should one criticise Lord Robertson a la ‘new’ WoS style?

    131. Morag says:

      You know, I thought what Rabb said was rather good actually.
       
      …. to me Robertson and the rest of his unionist bedfellows are greedy selfish bastards who care only about their wealth & standing and not a bloody jot about the people who put them their (real Scots). The utter contempt shown for their ain folk is absolutely shocking.
       
      Seconded, from me.
       
      Don’t you think that’s more effective than making stupid jokes about him putting his hair in the washing machine?

    132. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Morag-
       
      I refer the Honourable Member to the reply I gave some moments ago.’ (at 12.49)

    133. dee says:

      That Morag wan seems a right nippy sweety.  A right teachers pet.  She wouldn’t be an ex school mistress by any chance. Come doon aff yer high hoarse hen and chill oot.

    134. Paula Rose says:

      Lay off Morag sweetie dee, she’s the bee’s knees.

    135. dee says:

      @Paula Rose
       
      a think That wumman MorAG WIS windin up wan or two people and a told her to calm doon a wee bit, that wis aw. A think she kin reply fur herself and disnea need you to do it fur hur. So mind yer ain fuckin business.

    136. Paula Rose says:

      public space dee doll, so it is my biz xx

    137. Paula Rose says:

      Dee doll – Morag is a part of why this site is so special, as are you xx

    138. archie mcneill says:

      brilliant debate from 2 politicians who believe in their own way of doing things I am commited to Scotland no matter who fights in its name, but I believe mr Robertson was flummoxed and generalised. snp won the debate and proved their point, I do hope that Scotland will choose to be independent as we have collectively the courage the ability and the will to make it happen, and we are a nation not a state I am 66 and have prayed for this to happen, so did my father. in the words of some person on star trek scotty make it so .
       

    139. Doug Daniel says:

      For those debating whether or not George Robertson utilises synthetic hair products, I refer you to the rather prominent bald spot on the back of his head. If it’s a wig, it’s nae a very good one.
       
      tartanfever – being just old enough to have attended university before social media websites came to prominence, I can confirm that any degradation in the ability of young folk to formulate proper questions is nothing to do with Facebook etc (I still recall that first presentation in Software Engineering, where some folk looked like they were about to piss themselves – and that was in 3rd year). Shite public speakers existed long before Twitter. In fact, if anything, the 140 character restriction on tweets should have made people better at expressing themselves concisely!
       
      I think I can safely say I’ve seen young folk – and adults too – expressing themselves terribly on TV programmes from long before Twitter etc came about.

    140. Shinty says:

      I’ve always like Stewart Hosie and thought he was particularly good in delivering his message to the students, no wonder there was such a swing after the vote.

      As for Robertson, it was just the same old Project Fear script. 

      @Rabb
      to me Robertson and the rest of his unionist bedfellows are greedy selfish bastards who care only about their wealth & standing and not a bloody jot about the people who put them their (real Scots). The utter contempt shown for their ain folk is absolutely shocking”

      Spot on.
       
      @Ianbrotherhood
      “Mind you, by the looks of his ‘crowning glory’ these days, that wouldn’t be much of an excuse either – he could leave that with his Ma to wash, and she’d have it dried, ironed, and done by the time he got back. I’m sure he has a ‘spare’ in the briefcase for such emergencies”
       
      That did make me laugh, but in truth I think he just over does the ‘Grecian 2000’. Anyhow,  ignoring his appearance, he is still a lying toad, elevated well beyond his ability.
       

    141. colin says:

      sadly i was one of the woefully uneducated NO votes until recently. it literally took about an hour of looking at stuff on FB to convince me otherwise.
      this debate was
      great in that it showed the absolute dearth of evidence coming from the NO side. i cannot believe it is so one sided and yet i still thought NO was the correct position to take.
       
      the thing that upsets me now is that i live in London and will not be able to vote. im seriously considering ‘moving’ back to my mother or brothers house so i can vote as well.

      failing that i will be campaigning from down here to swing my friends and family who mostly will be voting NO if im any judge. and i know for a fact that they will be doing so from a position of ignorance as i am one of the more political minded of them having, quite embarrassingly, studied international politics at university. my excuse is that i have lived abroad (Asia) for most of my life and honestly couldn’t give 2 Fs about local or national politics in the UK.
       
      keep up the good work, chaps! and btw, that dude had a stroke? my god, what a legend. i couldn’t beat him in a debate and i have all my faculties untouched and in tact!

    142. john king says:

      All the people who say the lords in Scotland only need to take up UK  citizenship to retain their titles,
      again I say they will lose them, how can you hold an English title when your a lord of a part of a foreign country can Americans be lords? can Canadians? they may hold titles in name but not have the right to sit in the Lords 
      they WILL  lose their titles,
      unless the English lords are asked to budge up and the Scottish lords share their titles,
      maybe every second weekend and bank holidays? 
      🙂

    143. john king says:

      the rough bounds says 
      “So what exactly would that leave Robertson to be proud of?”
      Or lord of for that matter! 
        

    144. john king says:

      the rough bounds says
      “He said if he had any brains at all he would just say that he was unavailable for any particular debate because he was going to be washing his hair that night.”
      on a cool setting I hope? just remember not to set it on spin cycle or it’ll come out like an afro :0
        

    145. john king says:

      morag says
      “I was only pointing out that Stu had laid down a few house rules.  Since some people seem to disagree with this,”
      We get there are house rules Morag and that needless abuse of the opposition does nothing to encourage the undecideds but there are some people who put THEMSELVES beyond the pale, and Lord George Robertson of Port Ellen is one such person as  has the right honorable? Alistair Darling 

    146. john king says:

      call me dave says@ 9.32pm

      Your link to the lords debate on pre negotiations left me aghast at a comment by Lord Forsyth 
      “During the two-hour debate, former Scotland secretary Lord Forsyth of Drumlean said that First Minister Alex Salmond had become so desperate for supporters in his independence campaign he has had to “recruit the dead”.
       
      oh the irony
       

    147. Tattie-boggle says:

      Robertson must have stole Glen Michaels wig which used to be the best wig on television. But the reality is he is ashamed to be bald but has no shame when his face is in the trough .
      Oh and I am as bald as Kojak

    148. mealer says:

      George Robertson was majoring on the “uncertainty” argument.But that argument doesn’t have much power over students.They are not terrified by uncertaintyThey maybe actually quite like it.Too much focus on uncertainty can come over as a lack of ambition.
      Had the audience been OAPs,the poll at the start would have been similar,but the poll at the end wouldn’t have swung so violently.But it would have swung.Because whenever independence is debated YES always gains support.Its up to us to take the debate to the people.Nobody else will do it.

    149. ScottyC1314 says:

      Excellent performance by Hosie. 

      Typical unionist contribution from the good Lord. It seems we can stand on our own two feet now but then he launches into numerous negative arguments about problems we would face if we do. 

      Also chuckled away at the name dropping of those three custodians of fairness Marr, Wark and  Naughtie. The good lord thinks we would cross the North Sea in a bath tub if he thinks this is a compelling argument for the union. 

    150. Wintermute says:

      Hello wings. Im currently a “mature” student at Abertay and am very much impressed with the change in attitude this debate has created throughout the university. As a habitual eves dropper its very gratifying to hear conversations between our new input students regarding the vote (which seems to be changing from the apathetic “they are all the same why bother” to “how can these B***terds get away with saying <insert unionist myth>……”.  I cant wait for the next debate 🙂 Rev and all the wingers keep up the good work you guys are a lifeline in a sea of disinformation.  

    151. westie7 says:

      I need to put an clip of this up on FB.
      Anybody know how to take excerpts from youtube vids?

    152. Robert Stokes says:

      Is there any way we can get this debate broadcast to a wider audience?  That would be worth a good few pamphlets through doors.

    153. Seasick Dave says:

      I found this on an old hard drive recently but don’t know who originally quoted it.
       
      Understanding is a delaying tactic.
      Do you want to understand how to swim or do you want to jump in and start swimming?
      Only people who are afraid of water want to understand.
      Other people jump in and get wet.
       
       

    154. tartanfever says:

      Doug Daniel says:

      ‘Shite public speakers existed long before Twitter. In fact, if anything, the 140 character restriction on tweets should have made people better at expressing themselves concisely!’

      Aye, thats a fair enough point Doug. Some people have been able to condense their haverings to 140 characters or less – the vast majority however have just learned to mis-spell words by shortening them. 

      ‘Could ‘ becomes ‘c/d’ or ‘cd’ according to Lesley Riddoch. Marvellous. OMG ! ROFL ! and the constant ‘!’ that appear everywhere. Thats a step forward right enough. Will twitter be remembered for producing great prose, insightful thinking or contributing to mankind ? No, at best it will have given us a few funny moments.

      As for the Abertay debate, none of these kids asked a bloody question though – we did get plenty of garbled opinion. They were all to keen to tell us how it is for them. Since when did ‘I think’ become the most used opening words to a question, as opposed to ‘I don’t know‘, or ‘Could you‘ or even ‘Please explain’
      As for the ‘public speaking’. If asking a coherent question now qualifies as some kind of ‘public speaking’ then that seems to fit in nicely with the pattern we’ve seen over the last 20 years with education.

      Next week the local kids nursery here is being awarded university status.

    155. Seasick Dave says:

      Here is an interesting link.
       
      How to Respond to Opposition Tactics
      http://ctb.ku.edu/en/tablecontents/sub_section_main_1278.aspx

    156. tartanfever says:

      Doug Daniel says:
      I think I can safely say I’ve seen young folk – and adults too- expressing themselves terribly on TV programmes long before Twitter came about.
      Whats this got to do with appearing on TV programmes ? We’re talking about a bunch of students sitting in their university lecture theatre with a few other students filming them to put a video up on You Tube. If that now qualifies as being a ‘TV’ programme then I’ll eat my hat.
       

    157. Bubbles says:

      Since first being made aware of the Abertay debate above I have attempted to view it six times without success. It says a lot about this ‘country’ that for those of us who live in the sticks (rural Angus in my case) it’s virtually impossible to actually hear the facts. We don’t expect facts on television and are unable to access facts on the internet so what are we to do?
       
      Would it be at all possible for someone here to perhaps download this video and put it up on Dropbox or something similar? I could download it from there to a Flash drive and distribute it that way.
       
      I would also have liked to ask if anyone had any good ideas on how to get fast internet in a rural setting but as we’ve recently found out our millionaire landlord is selling out from under us there’s a very real danger we’ll either be homeless or living in Spain in the very near future thus rendering the question pointless (at least for myself). Not happy!

    158. Westie7 says:

      Caesar!lha says:
      6 October, 2013 at 9:06 am

      Tom Gordon on energy in the Sunday Herald
       
      thats about the only nugget on the newspaper shelves this morning
      just back from the Coop with the rolls and there seems to be an all out on regiments defence etc this morning

    159. Albert Herring says:

      @Bubbles
      Try http://youtubedownload.altervista.org/ among others.

    160. Boorach says:

      @ Bubbles
       
      Have you considered using a dongle?
       
      I use an ipad and struggled for over a year with 2G internet as provided in this area by O2. Purely chance a friend mentioned that he was usung a different provider (Three) and since changing to it life has been much, much better. Pages load in seconds instead of the up-to 5 minutes it used to take.
       
      Since then I have aquired a Tmobile dongle to use with my laptop (also 3G in this area), can’t beat a double barreled approach! 
       
      I’d advise you to have a look at the coverage maps on the various providers web sites for your own particular area, you could be pleasantly surprised.

    161. Bubbles says:

      @ Albert
       
      I’m downloading that app now but from the reviews I’m not hopeful.
       
      @ Boorach
       
      If only it were that simple. I’m currently on the One Plan from 3 and it’s great – everywhere else but here. Sadly my boss doesn’t appreciate me turning up to work and sitting down to watch videos. The only real downside to 3G, other than coverage, is it’s insistence in the need for a Wi-fi connection for downloads of more the 50MB.

    162. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Aberdeenshire school pupils have voted against Scottish independence”

      Welcome to about three weeks ago! Slow reader?

    163. The youtube video didn’t show up when I viewed on my mobile. Can you add direct links to the post please Rev. Thanks

    164. velofello says:

      Hi dee, as Paula Rose advises, we’re all reading and we are entitled to comment. Morag contributes much to this site and often with a candour and directness I find refreshing.

    165. The Water Beastie says:

      To be fair, I think Morag was only responding to what Stu had said 2 days earlier on http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-nice-problem-to-have/
      which then led on to
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/about/
      and seemed something of a very recent rap on the knuckles for all of us with regard to etiquette, engaging with the unconvinced, and being polite.  I think elsewhere he also (or maybe another poster) referred to the Aristotle argument, that if you attack someone’s appearance or personality, then it looks as though you are doing it because you cannot actually attack their arguments.  [Although I admit ‘less-than-gorgeous-George’ makes a compelling argument for the counter-view…..Brian Wilson seems to be another of these ‘oh yes I believed in Scottish Independence/SNP when I was young, until I found out that I liked money just for me’]
      More importantly – Glen Michael?  A wig??!  REALLY?  😮   Is nothing sacred?  I had my birthday read out twice on that show! You’ll tell me Paladin had a battery in him, next…..

    166. Shinty says:

      O/T
      Sarwar’s speech to Clydebank TUC
      http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/blog/entry/why-workers-in-scotland-should-vote-no
       
      I certainly hope the people of Clydebank are not taken in by it.

    167. Mosstrooper says:

      O/T
      Has anyone considered what an expense Scottish independence will cause to those nations having the union flag as part of their own national flag. All those new flags which will have to be bought and as for the headed notepaper, Oh the horror the horror. What about the compensation we’ll have to pay.
      On the other hand, think of the work for graphic designers, flag makers, printers etc.
      Ok, relax everyone it’s fine. Whew! that was a frantic couple of minutes.

    168. Albert Herring says:

      “I certainly hope the people of Clydebank are not taken in by it.”
       
      The people of Clydebank were too busy laughing to actually hear much of it.

    169. Mosstrooper says:

      Bugger! missed out a question mark.

    170. Shinty says:

      Sorry O/T again, best picture of BBC Weather map & reality.
      http://paper.li/ScotlandIndy/1329924280
       
       

    171. Shinty says:

      Sorry folks just realised the link above doesn’t work – anyhow if you are interested, it’s half way down the page in the photos section

    172. Douglas Young says:

      The George Robertson potted history at the introduction may have been the only true part of the speech.
      Although to be fair, he said a Yes vote means “no going back”.
      Thankfully.

    173. Andy-B says:

      Well done Mr Hosie.
       
      As Ive said before in a quote I found online but cant find who said it,
      .
       
      “The truth is like a lion set it free, and it will defend itself”.
       
      Thanks for uploading Rev.

    174. Edward says:

       

       

      Slightly O/T but interesting development. The ambitious millionaire Tory MP Adam Afriyie , is pushing to have the referendum on the EU, next year on the 23rd October (apparently to coincide with the winning of the Battle of El Alamein) . This would place it 5 weeks after the Independence Referendum. Question – If it were to happen on the 23rd, would that be a complete distraction for the pro unionists? Or a distraction from the Independence campaign. How would the BBC cover both?. Personally I think it will distract the unionists and that the BBC will spend more time covering EU matters, except for viewers in Scotland J

       

       
       

    175. call me dave says:

       
      Shinty
      Mr Macdonald posted this on another thread.
      Re: This Sarwar’s speech not a success.
      They’re on the run: http://telly.com/19VN2MH

    176. Seasick Dave says:

      call me dave
       
      I can’t get that link to work on our crappy, offshore comms.
       
      What’s the gist of it?

    177. Ruairidh says:

      Three of the most striking elements of that whole debate;

      Firstly, we can mock the students attempts at asking questions, their participation etc but what the whole hour and a half truly reveals is the vital role we must play in educating the youth. They are not afraid and not afraid to vote yes but they are full of uncertainty and will instinctively fall back to the default “too wee, too poor too stupid (we might get attacked by Iraq) status if not provided with such an opportunity. Out of interest I would love to have seen if that young lady was turned by Stuart’s arguments and in the end voted yes, it would not surprise me.

      Secondly; We clearly saw that presented with the proper facts in a calm open manner how soft the no vote actually is and the reason in this case that it is so soft is that these guys clearly had not had the opportunity to hear a balanced positive case for independence against the guff that George put out. It shows that when people get engaged it is all over for project fear.

      Thirdly can somebody please provide George with a copy of Alan Bissets Vote Britain, a fantastic example of both our language and culture at work in the modern day. It actually hurt me that he a “Proud Scot” could stand up and say that without a missing a beat. I really feel and hope he is pursued for that statement at any public meeting or future debate he undertakes, he cannot say he was misquoted or taken out of context as it formed part of his so called positive case for the union. 

    178. Andrew Morton says:

      Just to clarify, the students were asked to make statements about their feelings about the presentations by the protagonists and were told that questions were to be asked afterwards. Unfortunately the chairman rather lost control of this process and some of them started to drift into question mode. Hence a lot of the confusion.

    179. call me dave says:

       
      Seasick Dave
      Well it’s a public meeting and a well filled hall.
      A significant section of the audience(not seen but heard) calling for answers and interrupting him. Some calling ‘party hack’ and even ‘liar’ can be heard.
      “Just YES or NO” some shout, but he tries to plough on.
      Just about a minute of film.
      It is obviously been done on a mobile or tablet.
      Doesn’t say where he is apart from Glasgow.
      May chime in with some twitter messages middle of last week where comments were made that he had been booed and verbally harangued .
       

    180. Seasick Dave says:

      cmd
       
      Thanks for the update.
       
      It sounds like it went well then 🙂

    181. call me dave says:

      UK Government (balanced report) on  defence out next week.
      No surprise the Sunday papers are getting their first bite of the cherry today.
      Starter for 10 anyone?
      Assets accrued to Scotland in facilities ; equipment and will be split (say 9 %) 
      Question is how will / can the men and women currently signed up to the ‘British Forces’ be deployed into a Scottish Force.
      1. Volunteers can be waved across?
      2. People just get allocated to a Scottish Regiment? 
      Remember that there will be lots of ‘none’ Scots involved.
      Ideas on the back of a fag packet or reference(s) to documents please.
      Finally I see that the MoD want to retain the Regimental names and badges /colours for the UK Forces. 
       

    182. Seasick Dave says:

      cmd
       
      We could have a Regiment called the Scotch Bonnets which would incorporate the Red Hot Chilli Pipers.
       
      Just a thought.

    183. call me dave says:

      LOL:
      Well it’s a thought.
      Try this from a post on NNS:
      Paper on Scottish Independence is published next month. RUSI have already established the Scottish Defence Plan is feasible and will cost less than Scotland’s current contribution to the UK defence pot(£3.2 billion 2011/12) at an estimated £1.8 billion.

      http://www.youtube.com/…/

    184. G H Graham says:

      Robertson’s argument started with a threat & then spent the rest of it working through a long list of points based upon emotional blackmail.
      Hosie used simple, clear, unarguable facts delivered with grace, pace & dignity.
      It’s no surprise that he won the debate.
       
       

    185. call me dave says:

      Oil and Gas
      This Grangemouth refinery story (shut by 2017) unless SG or UK cough up £30M to refurbish.  
      Is this just a scare story against independence as I suspect or at least blackmail.
      From the map see North Sea bit.
      Would be a big blow to lose refinery.
       
       http://www.gov.uk/…/Infrast_Off.pdf
       

    186. G H Graham says:

      Grangemouth is operated by PetroIneos. It will only shut when it is not an economically viable business.

    187. Shinty says:

      Not sure what is going on at Grangemouth, but I believe it’s a shambles (antiquated) and needing some serious investment. However, I am sure the pipeline to Faslane will be a contributing factor as to whether it closes it doors or not.

    188. even at the very end of the debate Robertson fluffing and flaffing and spinning his uncertainty

    189. scottish_skier says:

      Oil and GasThis Grangemouth refinery story (shut by 2017) unless SG or UK cough up £30M to refurbish.
       
      As I understand it, it is not the refinery per se, but the attached petrochemical plant where the problem lies. These two are different things. The refinery turns crude into the standard fractions such as petrol, diesel, kerosene which are used for motor fuels, aviation fuels, home heating etc. No problems for raw materials /  sales here; Forties pipeline carries 30% of the UK’s raw crude oil.
       
      The petrochemical plant makes industrial chemicals for other applications, mainly feedstocks for other chemical plants (making e.g. polymers / resins / plastics, solvents), namely produced from the gas fraction (the oil / condensate liquids being used for fuels). Ethylene production is a big one at Grangemouth. A problem with supply of gas (the main supply from forties is liquids) and ageing equipment is the issue I believe. That and reduced demand for feedstocks.
       
      I think Ineos are trying to wing it a little though.

    190. eva says:

      Excellent performance from Stewart Hosie, especially at 1.13 as he says “when we’re independent.” 🙂

    191. call me dave says:

      scottish_skier
      Thanks for that bit of information.
      Losing £1M per month so it is claimed.

    192. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Thanks for that bit of information.”

      Dave, if you keep starting and ending all your comments with unnecessary extra line breaks, I’m going to come over there and skelp your lugs for you.

    193. Just watched it, wow you’d think that Roberts would have learnt something from the hiding Salmond gave in the 90s debate. He appeared to spend most of his speech defending himself not the UK.

      I don’t think Roberts is a Quisling, he’s obviously a double agent because no one could do that good a job for the yes camp by accident. Imagine someone stating that Scotland doesn’t have their own language or culture!

    194. Cankert Callan says:

      Great site! Longtime reader first time poster. Does anyone have any idea why the comments section for this video on YouTube is disabled? It seems to be open for all the other videos on the channel.

    195. Gray says:

      Is it just me or does there seem to have been an awfy long time since there was any poll showing recent referendum voting intentions?

    196. Camkert Callan says:

      Hi Andy-B,
      The full qoute is:
      “The truth is like a lion. You don’t have to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself.”
      By St Augustine

    197. Ahamilton says:

      just had the opportunity to watch this debate, Stewart Hosie is engaging, interesting, factual and normal.  inspirational, thank you for making this accessible. 

    198. Ian Borge says:

      “Catalonia has language and culture, we don’t have any of that”

      I think I read someplace (maybe here) someone had said that, but actually hearing it is unbelievable.



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