High Street Farage Death Ceilidh
Posted on
May 16, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
No, honestly, they’re just dancing.
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It probably would have been better if he had been ignored. However ….
“this way sir I think you’ve had enough”
The protesters have not covered themselves in glory on this one – and we do need to get out of the EU, not stay in/reapply to join it: it’s an anti-democratic and illiberal organisation. Ask the youth of Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal how it’s working out for them.
Well done the protesters!
Well done to the protesters. Politicians generally live in a cushy world when the hardest questions they face is a pandering media journalist – polite to the last.
This is what politics is also about, facing the people on the street, and these protesters did this in full public view, in front of the press cameras and police – not behind some anonymous internet name or twitter account (yes, that includes me).
Vote Yes – on your point about the youth of Spain.Italy and Greece – maybe you’d like to tell us just what conditions those countries would be in now if the EU hadn’t bailed them out ?
Vote Yes & leave the EU
We can vote YES and have that vote as an independent country. That’s not the subject of this post, that’s another huge discussion for another time. The protesters made their point well. Unless you get out there and make it plain how you feel about them (legally of course) they’ll just accept lack of noise as agreement with them and a compliant media will make sure of that.
Not a single arrest. Plenty of police around, surely if people were breaking the law they’d have been arrested.
The Edinburgh mob is great tradition and I won’t have a word said against it.
Also, the EU has a lot of positives – look at our clean beaches, our returning wildlife, our protected habitats and landscapes, our clearner rivers, our better air quality, our safer vehicles, our safety in the workplace, our limited working hours, our right to be consulted on major planning applications (I know, it’s getting dull now) – but without the EU, the UK would be frightful place and would be a dump that looked like it had been run by UKIP for the past 30 years.
I could go on… just the fact we have a new French-born SNP MSP says it all.
And you do know that the main objection to the EU is coming from the city – simply because the EU is trying to limit their greed and they don’t like it.
Still think he would have been struggling to get any publicity if he had been ignored
Lad on the right was top class. Asked good questions in the press call and would not let Farage off the hook. He won’t make a politician since he is too honest and passionate. Shame.
I wonder if Mr Farage still believes we are Better Together?
Gordon Brewer sounded pissed off at Farage’s reception. He objected to Farage being called a Nazi, fascist etc. These BBC Scotland political reporters would not know self awareness if it came up and bit them on the arse. They obviously have no objection to the abuse of Salmond.
Comments now open on Guardian’s article about Farage.
O/T Nicola won.
Well said MajorB
Just watched the STV head to head and can say with total conviction that Sturgeon wiped the floor with the big dope.
I have, however, switched off before The Ponse and ‘the political editor of Radio Clyde’ (oo-oooh) continue perverting it into some kind of jolly useful score-draw with no knock out punches and please let’s have more of this in the future blah, blah, blah.
One-on-one the unionists have got nuffink.
If two unionist commentators can agree that Nicola was the clear winner, I think it is safe to assume that it has been a good night for the independence movement. Well done Ms Sturgeon.
Dave McEwen Hill – “Still think he would have been struggling to get any publicity if he had been ignored”
Nah, the media love the guy at the moment. He clicks his fingers and they turn up – there were 40 journalists there today. 40 journalists for a guy whose party have not won a single MSP, MP, MEP or even councillor in Scotland. Even the Senior Citizens Party have had more electoral success than Farage (and came ahead of UKIP in the 2011 North-East regional vote). He would have gotten publicity whatever happened. Now any headlines about how UKIP are going to make their mark on Scotland will just look daft.
Scotland just popped his bubble. The proverbial “I kent his faither” to send him packing, with his tail between his legs!
Hmm, outside the EU and independent, we could be like…ooh let me see, Norway. Or Switzerland. Or even Iceland (where they actually dealt with their bankers and politicians).
As to where Spain et al would be without the EU bailout, happier places with a future for their youth as they’d have left the Euro and would have suffered short-term pain (like Iceland) before their economies returned to growth (as opposed to the depression imposed on them by Brussels and Berlin).
When it was the EEC, fair enough. Ever closer union: no thanks. We’ll be regaining sovereignty by voting for independence only to hand it away again to one of the most corrupt organisations on the planet.
If UKIP is the only way to vote to get out of the EU, then I’ll hold my nose and vote for them. Hopefully, we won’t be allowed in in the first place, though.
I wouldn’t write Colin Mackay off as a unionist. At the very least, he’s one of the few commentators that tends to give pro-indy folk a fair crack of the whip (when he’s on Scotland Tonight, anyway).
And while Bernard certainly stood for the Lib Dems in the 1988 Govan by-election, and his VT at the start was a bit dodgy, he’s still generally a very good pundit.
“And while Bernard certainly stood for the Lib Dems in the 1988 Govan by-election, and his VT at the start was a bit dodgy, he’s still generally a very good pundit.”
Mm. We can’t expect them to reflect our highly-partisan views. But even so, I thought they fudged it excessively – that was about as clear a points victory as you’ll ever see in a political debate.
Rev Stu,
In which of your blogposts are comments on STV’s Scotland Tonight hour long programme from 2230 with introductory conclusions and concluding introductions to take foward from the framed between Nicola Sturgeon and Michael Moore debate on the major economic Pro’s and Con’s (oops) for and agin Scotland being an Independent Country),….
…. or have you requested folk hold off until an intended blogpost by you on the debate etc in the morn?
Hngh. I only mind people going OT in the FIRST FEW POSTS of a thread. 20 in is fine.
“And you do know that the main objection to the EU is coming from the city – simply because the EU is trying to limit their greed and they don’t like it.”
MajorBoodnok, would that you were correct. Unfortunately, all cross-EU polling right now consistently suggests a significant rise in the number of people who are anti-EU. You cannot reduce vast swathes of the youth and general population to relative penury without repercussions. If they keep going, there will be major civil unrest across the EU in those countries where bailouts are baking in multi-year depression conditions. Plus, until there is one common debt, the Euro as a common currency will not succeed.
@Doug Daniel
there were 40 journalists there today. 40 journalists for a guy whose party have not won a single MSP, MP, MEP or even councillor in Scotland.
You know, Doug, I was wondering why he held his press conference in a pub. I think you’ve answered my question.
Vote Yes & leave the EU – Spain et al’s problems are not a reason for Scotland to come out of the EU, they’re reasons for those countries to come out of the EU. In fact, it’s not even the EU that’s the problem – it’s the Eurozone. If membership of the EU is such an unequivocal disaster, why are countries like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania actually doing really well just now?
Regarding EU membership. That is a matter for the people of Scotland but only when we are independent. When the pros and cons of EU membership are presented to the people, assuming they ever are in the UK. I think we will vote to remain in the EU.
All I can say is, it’s the UK that takes all of our revenues, gives one billion (approximately) of it to the EU and grudgingly passes some back for the Scottish government to do what they can with their ration.
It’s the UK not the EU that is holding back Scotland’s economy and hammering the less well off in order to line the pockets of, the bankers, the politicians, the Lords, the board members of private healthcare firms and other other favoured big businesses.
“Mm. We can’t expect them to reflect our highly-partisan views. But even so, I thought they fudged it excessively – that was about as clear a points victory as you’ll ever see in a political debate.”
A wee bit, aye. But I’ll take a bit of a fudge than a total sham, like if they’d had Simon Pia on…
I like the boxing analogies that are going about – I think of the campaign as a whole as being a 16-month amateur boxing match (so there’ll be no knock-outs ending it early). It’s going to be won by whoever accumulates the most points at the end, which is why it doesn’t matter if our opponents seem to be ahead on (polling) points at the start, because we know they’re exhausting themselves and we’ll step up a gear in a couple of rounds.
Or something like that…
Neither Colin McKay nor Bernard Ponsonby are unionists but they wouldn’t last long on our screens if they started waving YES flags.
I see we have an anti EU spoiler on. The problem is not the Euro. A currency is neutral. It’s what you do with it that makes the difference. The problem is the mismangement of several economies associated with banking malpractice, some of which would have collapsed by now had the Euro not been in place. The UK’s economy is in worse state than any other in Europe except Ireland’s (and I’d be willing to bet that Ireland will be out of trouble long before the UK is). UK total debt as percentage of GDP is just about double that of Greece for instance. So if it comes to whether I’d rather be in the UK or the EU, the EU wins every time. But that’s a question for another, post independence , day
Good comments from The Major and Doug. Nothing much that I can add except my view that the Farage incident was a plus for the Yes camp. I know it will get a lot of flack and negative spin but what have the people of Scotland come expect from the MSM these days anyway? The image will last on for a dam site longer. Hopefully just the sort of thing that crosses the mind when it comes to decision time.
That and Nicola Sturgeon gave an excellent account of herself on Scotland Tonight. She almost took over Michael Moors questioning session and used the opportunity well.
Look, if you weren’t so draughty around the kilty-regions, you vile Scots rabble would realise that all UKIP is saying is that no country should be ruled by a foreign Elite that hates you and your culture, whose capital is out of control and thousands of miles away, and which is determined to follow mad as a bicycle economic theories that are destroying their own people whilst dictating to you what sort of bananas you can eat or what you can say on your own streets…
And that’s why you should vote for UKIP, and for our collection of adorable Little Englander twatnaks, in Scotland! Now shut up, sit down, and let us tell you about our wonderful idea of a Flat Tax… that we got from the American Tea Party!
Rev. – Agreed, to use the boxing analogy, no knockout blow, but a clear points victory by Nicola.
Time for the YES campaign to tell the unionists our negotiating starting point is we won’t take any debt and we don’t want any assets outwith Scotland
Their reply will be: you can’t be serious!
Our response: what are going to do?
Turn the nukes on us?
Had to laugh that the commentators on tonight’s debate. They couldn’t pick holes in Nicola’s currency plan, so had to have a go at a fictitious plan B.
Regarding the EU debate here, and to less snarky a moment, everything I’ve read indicates that legally a Successor State will have to renegotiate it’s engagement within the European Union. There aren’t many precedents, certainly not for an already-member state gaining Independence, but my belief is that the EU will renegotiate simply to avoid getting dragging into local constitutional politics; Thus an Independent Scotland can pick or choose which parts of the European project it wishes to follow.
If it were to vote for the social elements (EC Human Rights Court, working condition legislation etc) and the Single Market elements without embracing the Euro I believe you’d avoid most of the problems that have hedged my own internationalist side recently. As others have mentioned, the main damage and danger is coming from the power of Austerians via the blunt tool of the Euro.
Defence would be a much trickier proposition as Britain itself is in-between identities, from former NATO deployments to a mixture of American Poodle and occasional (and increasingly, not even that) UN supporter; that debate has to come irrespective of Independence, especially if national economies within Europe continue to destabilize. Trident is in some ways a red herring; I think the real pressure will come upon an Independent Scottish Airforce and Navy, as the US will demand someone covers the Arctic path for Russian bombers and ICBM submarines, but it’s impossible to do that without integrating into an American-focused geopolitical set up like NATO too. In many ways, it’s this loss of importance, this destruction of the “Special Relationship” that worries Whitehall more than Trident… the Russians never saw a couple of incoming British Nukes in as a tiny part of an all out holocaust as being all that important; but London not being the vital Atlantic-Gap filler for America scares the pants off them.
It would be interesting to see what comes out of this then… if it wasn’t terrifying that at least one of the major actors is going completely bat shit stupid in it’s electoral politics.
@Etrigan – That’s a very good observation.
Farage… for any alkys in the Canonsgate, the ‘pint test’ was a delightfully unexpected option, wonder how they found it? The BNP were also corralled in a nearby pub on the Royal Mile a few years ago if I remember right, the pub manager had no idea who was coming into his pub that day. Nothing to do with Farage of course, just a vaguely related aside on the far right.
Off Topic,
Just done watching Bernard Ponsonby’s 1997 debate, perhaps it only looked good because Labour management and the MSM are long syne in cahoots. Maybe as Labour were clearly winning in 1997, the MSM could afford the magnanimity of a fair and open debate? The difference with today being, though Labour and the Scottish MSM remain cahooters, the progressive agenda has long been bypassed by Labour, hence the mealy-mouthed paralysis of today’s media.
To add to the Majors comment. On the subject of the local environment and the benefits of Europe. I worked for Scottish Water and its predecessors so I know of the vast investment in infrastructure that went on and is still ongoing.
I live close by the banks of the Clyde and have done so, on and off most of my life. I am lucky that I live near the pretty bit between Hamilton and Glasgow. I remember when I was young in the sixties it was a foul stinking mess. It even had the obligatory remains of an old pram every couple of hundred yards. (Note to younger readers. This was pre supermarket trolley days!)
Now when I walk my dog along the banks I see the river with plenty of ducks scuttling about and most days a heron swoops past. I have seen guys fishing and puling out some considerable sized fish. I’m told that there are otters but I haven’t seen one yet. I do occasionally come across some roe deer standing stock still in the forest as the dog and me quietly walk on by. One down side is the amount of urban foxes. The woodland is beautiful right now the leaves on the trees still bright green and the carpet of bluebells, lots of birds singing even the odd woodpecker. I don’t think that it would have happened without Europe. I don’t think Westminster would care one little bit. Sticking my neck out here but a lot of this also has to do with the closing of the steel industry in upstream Motherwell by you know who. I knew of several young mothers at the time that were glad to se the back of “The Craig” for the sake of their children’s health. No town should have to suffer pollution like Motherwell did it could not have gone on regardless of Thatcher.
Anyway it is Scotland and it is beautiful so don’t let anyone take it away vote Yes.
In regards to the currency Plan B thing, it baffles me that people keep going “what’s your Plan B?” as if they’re going to reveal beforehand what their fallback option is if the negotiations don’t go their way. Surely it’s obvious that as soon as you reveal Plan B, it becomes your Plan A, because Westminster will just say “right, we play hardball on Plan A and they have to resort to Plan B by default”?
Of course the government have a Plan B – but they’re not stupid enough to show their cards to their opponent before putting down their stake.
I couldn’t help but notice Moore’s demeanor when Nicola was making her points to him. If I’m to be kind, I’d say he was ‘nodding, as in, I understand what your saying’, which would not do for his other interests, so we got the fudge clap-trap – ‘I’m a Liberal Democrat – and my (our) values are this…..’ – and total bollocks as far as Scotland is concerned.
If I’m to be less than being kind – I’d say the UK game’s well up and they know it and he’s treading water and looking for a positive UK negotiation out of it.
BTW – I thought Nigel Farage’s visit didn’t go down to well with the local populace and if he want’s to venture into a bear-pit, that’s his problem. But, did I hear him say in the (C4 clip) in the pub, that Protestants were being persecuted in Scotland? If he did, he’s a very calculating and dangerous fool indeed.
Plan B is to confuse the Unionists into thinking that a plan B is different to plan C, which is the one that Salmond has wanted to use all along. Plan A is the sensible option for the rUK and Scotland to use post independence.
Plan D, E & F are all together different or they might be – but that would depend on your point of view of course. 😀
@The Man, Doug and the Baron – Great posts, along with Nicola’s performance tonight, feeling a wee bit proud to be Scottish and looking forward to the next 15 and a bit months to convince our fellow Scots that making our own decisions is the way forward.
@Barontorc
I must have a listen to the Ch4 thing again tomorrow (its late). It would explain the sudden and very unexpected conversion by a friend of a friend to UKIP some time ago. His entire family were O.O. Has UKIP been active in that direction I wonder?
We’ve stuck with the union for 300 hundred years and it has done nothing for us, by way of contrast, in 20 years the EU has cleaned our beaches, paid money to projects involved in rennovation of inner city areas, introduced human rights legislation and extensive labour rights amongst others. The least we could do is give them a fair crack after Independence.
I’m biased, of course, but I thought Nicola Sturgeon won her debate with Michael Moore easily. Outwith the politics, Sturgeon looked confident and composed, while Moore was neither as well as looking uncomfortable and ill at ease. A good start.
Sturgeon also mentioned the scaremongering stories so beloved of the Unionists. She didn’t say that the MSM UK-wide is utterly biased and one-sided and is deliberately attempting to mislead the referendum voters, though I wish she had. This seems to be a deliberate policy whenever SNP ministers or Yes Scotland representatives are given air-time by the BBC or STV. Are they afraid that doing so would antagonise these organisations in some way? If so, I’m astounded as those organisations couldn’t be more hostile towards Scottish independence, apart from just putting Scotland Vote No on every page of print and stating such in every broadcast, if they tried. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
Apoligies for O/T
Just been on The Scotsman poll re ‘Is Gordon Brown the kiss of death for Better Together’ and it seems that the poll fairies haven’t been out to rescue him.
A UKIP spokesman described the scene as “inchoate rage”.
“Was it anti-English? I doubt it, I don’t think they thought that far,” he said.
———————–
Ehhh….did the Main Man himself just not say that he thought it was not only ‘anti-English’, but also ‘anti-British’
Or is this another manipulation of the truth by the Media? (link to bbc.co.uk)
Here is my View of Michael Moore
“And that’s why you should vote for UKIP, and for our collection of adorable Little Englander twatnaks, in Scotland! Now shut up, sit down, and let us tell you about our wonderful idea of a Flat Tax… that we got from the American Tea Party!”
so moving on
soor ploom anyone?
sorry titler it took a while to recognize satire,
not used to it
Youuuuuu put yer right hand in, yer right hand out
IN, OUT, IN OUT
Shake it all about.
You do the UKOK
and you spin around.
THAT’S WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT – OI!
Ooohhhhh do the UKOK 😀
Yer right, its a dance.
From the BBC
Mr Farage replied: “If you believe that then you are less intelligent than you look, dear boy.
“We are a non-racist, non-sectarian party and unlike every other party in British politics we actually forbid people who have been on extreme left or right-wing extremes from joining our party.”
Didn’t I just read something recently about UKIP encouraging BNP members to join them?
or am I losing it?
“Didn’t I just read something recently about UKIP encouraging BNP members to join them?”
Close. We had a piece on the BNP encouraging their members to join UKIP.
For those of you who missed this
link to munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk
If, yesterday, anyone still had doubts that Scotland and England are rapidly heading in different directions, surely it is now crystal clear?
‘Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
17 May, 2013 at 7:30 am
“Didn’t I just read something recently about UKIP encouraging BNP members to join them?”
Close. We had a piece on the BNP encouraging their members to join UKIP.’
And it goes the other way, ‘Subsidy Junky’ Monkton holding out the hand of friendship a year ago:
‘UKIP ‘front-line‘ spokeman Christopher Monckton has called on the far-right British Freedom Party to “come back and join” UKIP, in a video interview….
The British Freedom Party was formed in 2010 and mostly populated by disaffected members of the BNP. A significant proportion were supporters of Eddy Butler – who failed to oust Nick Griffin as BNP leader in 2010. The BFP leader is Paul Weston – a former UKIP election candidate.‘
link to tinyurl.com
Doesn’t that monkton guy in that pic on Munguin’s remind you of those nice folk in ‘a clockwork orange’? 🙂
Call Kaye on Farange as BBC continue to build him up
Farage’s interview on GMS is worth hearing if someone has a link to it. I won’t spoil anytbing but the three second dial tone on the end of it is priceless.
“Macsenex says:
… we won’t take any debt and we don’t want any assets outwith Scotland
Their reply will be: you can’t be serious!
Our response: what are going to do?
Turn the nukes on us?
17 May, 2013 at 12:20 am”
Unfortunately most countries need access to international money markets, and those markets will not look very highly on a country that defaults on its debt from day 1. While not taking debt is a nice fantasy, it’s unlikely to be a serious consideration for the leaders of a newly independent country wanting to be taken seriously by anyone outside that country.
Farage just on Radio 4’s ‘Today’ – pretty much unchallenged by the presenter, Farage states:
these protesters were all SNP voters
these protesters all support independence
the independence campaign is intimidating and bullying the debate
these protesters are racist – anti UK, anti Union Jack, anti English
Then the presenter, rather than picking up on ‘what proof do you have they are SNP voters ?’ comes out with this instead,
‘Do you think Alex Salmond hates the English ?’
Farage says, ‘well, I hope not, but’ then mumbles on about how we can’t tell and generally the independence campaign is about hating the English.
A good three minute party political broadcast there for Farage.
“Farage just on Radio 4?s ‘Today’ – pretty much unchallenged by the presenter,”
Can you narrow the exact time down a bit? Can’t find it as yet.
I see from the above photo that Neil Lennon also shares the nations views on Farage 😉
Unfortunately most countries need access to international money markets, and those markets will not look very highly on a country that defaults on its debt from day 1. While not taking debt is a nice fantasy, it’s unlikely to be a serious consideration for the leaders of a newly independent country wanting to be taken seriously by anyone outside that country.
The point to remember here is that Scotland not taking a share of UK debt (defaulting of a sort, although the debts are UK debts – Scotland itself has not borrowed anything) would be in response to the UK defaulting on its debt to Scotland; i.e. not giving Scotland it’s appropriate share of assets (gold reserves, BoE, embassies, agreeing to joint £ use initially…). You either divvy up both assets and liabilities, or neither, with the UK keeping all the assets and all the liabilities (Scotland just gets what lies in Scotland’s territory). While the latter might seem attractive, it’s in all likelihood to be the former.
Does anyone know if that debate between Nicola Sturgeon and Moore was on last night? Living in the southwest we’re in a bit of a TV blackspot. If so does anyone know if its available on the net?
@ Macart
link to player.stv.tv
@Adrian B
I was going to ask the same thing as Macart, so cheers for the link. 🙂
Man in the jar @Barontorc. 2mins 41 secs in….’protestants are a persecuted minority’…
Ukip leader Nigel Farage harangued by protestors in pub
According to the BBC web site, “UKIP leader Nigel Farage has described protesters who besieged him in an Edinburgh pub as “fascist scum”.
link to bbc.co.uk
What a fud….
have you heard his nonsense on the BBC?
link to bbc.co.uk
utter trash hes calling them racist fascists, pot kettle springs to mind. the BBC devote a whole article to him spouting his bigotry and don’t even quote the RIC about the event only listing them as a grassroots campaign in favor of indy. balanced my arse!!!!
@Adrian B
Much appreciated. 🙂
To be fair, I think he was referring to a question about his own background, as coming from Huguenot stock, which is where the persecuted minority thing comes from.
Mind, no sure I want to be fair…
David Miller is a good en
link to bbc.co.uk
gets tore into Nigel 🙂
@Stuart Black
Aye like they would give us the benefit of the doubt.
Don’t go coming over all “fair” now. 😉
link to order-order.com
I bet he’s glad he did not go to Glasgow.
link to youtube.com
Also somebody should also buy ther UKIP a map. What the hell was he doing in Edinburgh, launching his party’s csampaign fo rthe byelection in Aberbeen.
Some should write an comic opera about it. Farage the clown.
Tattie-boggle says:
17 May, 2013 at 10:05 am
David Miller is a good en
link to bbc.co.uk
gets tore into Nigel
Its not often I have the need to to say this, but well done GMS! 🙂
@TMITJ: Aye, yer right, fuk’m! 😉
Were trying to win a referendum not entertain ourselves by making oponents squirm.
We need all the votes we can get , Yesterday we lost some.
I’m only concerned in gaining Independence for Scotland.
I’ve just seen the ITV news, saw a Radical Independence Banner, heard Farage interviewed on the phone saying the protesters were Anti English.
This hasn’t done the Independence cause a lot of good. We’re trying to attract undecided voters, linking Independence with Anti Englishness will turn of many undecideds.
This protest could have been hijacked by forces not aligned to Independence.
Then there’s the right to free speech.
Farage has been on Call Kaye this morning and heading up bulletins. He’s making capital out of this.
Just been on the BBC news site and there is absolutely nothing about Nicola / Michael Moore debate – I know it was on STV but surely its newsworthy.
I hate that people seem to think that Farage and UKIP or the right wing of the Conservatives somehow speak for all Eurosceptics.
I’m pro-Independence but also believe that we should be looking towards EFTA. Unlike UKIP, I have no problem with immigration in Scotland. In fact, I think we should change the borderline racist immigration laws Theresa May imposed as Home Secretary, and maintain a free travel arrangement with the EU.
If UKIP was the party it was initially set up as under Alan Sked in the early 90s, then it would indeed be a valid protest vote as their sole purpose was withdrawl from the European Union. However since he left, the party has evolved into what is essentially BNP-lite. They frequently refer to members of other EU member nations in racially derogatory terms, (ie. Krauts, Frogs etc) do not believe in equal rights for gay people, think that a man who has no scientific qualifications whatsoever should decide climate change and health policies in this country (co-incidentally he’s now President of UKIP in Scotland) and believe that we should have devolution protected by dissolving our Parliament and cutting our number of elected representatives.
I will indeed be voting YES, but when it comes to UKIP, it’s not just a firm NO, it’s a OH DEAR FUCKING CHRIST, NO!
Map for Farage? This one, perchance:
link to strangemaps.files.wordpress.com
LOL!!
If anyone would like to comment on items like Scotland Tonights debate. You can sign up here:
link to scotpulse.com
Monthly questionnaire and prize draw , but the important thing is to encourage STV to keep this up and offer encouragement.
@annie
Nicola won, so obviously not newsworthy as far as BBC is concerned.
I see the BBC are promoting farages claim
“50 yobbo fascist scum turn up and aren’t prepared to listen to the debate”
Can the people who organised this protest challenge him to a televised debate on Scottish independence? I think it would be fantastic to prove him wrong and show him we are willing to listen to his views. If we can get those views aired on television all the better and there would be a nice big lurch towards yes.
@ James Westland
I was thinking of a real one by the OS, not the one inside his heid. It might get him to Aberdeen. Lol
@Clydebuilt
“We need all the votes we can get , Yesterday we lost some.”
Evidence?
My experience this morning has been the opposite – people are deriding Farage’s claims of anti-Englishness. That does not mean we have gained votes, but neither is there any evidence that we have lost any (much as the MSM will doubtless portray it that way).
Seems to me listening to old Nigel’s anti-SNP rants that he is quite frightened of the results his party will get when they try for election in Scotland and bursts his bubble. Maybe he should stay in the territory that is more accepting of his party’s policy. Go away and stay where you belong.
If you don’t want the independence campaign to be smeared as anti-English then don’t say anything to anyone, don’t write anything anywhere, and don’t take part in any march or demonstration. Otherwise…
Seems to me listening to old Nigel’s anti-SNP rants that he is quite frightened of the results his party will get when they try for election in Scotland and bursts his bubble
That’ll be why he’s saying that they’re fascists: so that he can claim they took all the natural UKIP votes.
Anyone read Guido this morning?
Shocking comments from windae lickers inc.
Nicola won, so obviously not newsworthy as far as BBC is concerned.
The debate was on STV, so obviously not newsworthy as far as the BBC is concerned.
Farage is a pantomime horse, the total effect this will have on the Independence vote is zero.
If it did change anyone’s mind or move an undecided voter it could be either way so its moot.
As usual the press will do their thing but again, it’ll make no difference, they do their thing anyway. If it wasn’t this, it would be something else.
My own personal view is, while the 20-odd folk that did turn up were vocal in their disdain for UKIP, it more or less reflects (albeit in a more enthusiastic fashion) what the majority of people in Scotland thinks on the topic.
UKIP don’t figure in Scottish politics, why would they? They are more ‘British’ than the Tories when it comes to devolution. Otto Inglis will lose his deposit in Donside and that’ll be that, if Farage thought any success UKIP had down south could be transferred up north; he was mistaken.
Well done David Miller. I laughed my socks off at Farage rising to Miller’s bait. This is great!
Every negative unionist soundbite will now sound as bitter as Farage’s hubristic guff.
You have to love him. He’s the plane crash that just keeps on giving.
This week’s Nae Luck award goes to…….Otto Inglis. Farage’s ‘let’s have a matey gathering in the pub’ plan worked out well, didn’t it? As for his mega-strop on GMS this morning, that’s really going to endear him to the Scottish electorate. I’ve just heard a soundbite on BBC news channel where he claims that David Millar’s line of questioning was aggressive and full of hatred. Sore about the lack of adulation much?
Is this not just a wee bit contrived and convenient for the Unionists? Just Thinking
Training Day says:
17 May, 2013 at 10:47 am
@Clydebuilt
“We need all the votes we can get , Yesterday we lost some.”
Evidence?
well aye here’s some evidence, old bloke who cleans out the church, didn’t like what he saw. Now he’s going off the idea of voting YES.
If I feel it in my (political) bones that we lost some votes then it’s safe to assume we did just that.!
Roboscot has a fair point.
however seeing the police involved in keeping down indy activists, will set the stage for this becoming the norm. Certain forces will ensure that is the case.Who do you think scuffled with the Unionist gents at the March for Indy in Edinburgh last September
So the public will start to link Indy with trouble.
Were trying to win a referendum not entertain ourselves by making oponents squirm.
I remember when UKIP started to get exposure on TV a few years back (generated by Robert Kilroy Silk’s ‘popularity’), a committee member of the party, possibly the VP (can’t remember the name) and best pal of Farage, stated on camera that employers would be mad to hire women of child bearing age.
They hold dear their Victorian ‘values’.
Best thing to do is get Farage into a televised debate and expose him for the one-trick pony he really is.
To be honest I reckon that the people in Scotland who have taking the time to view this little piece of nonsense will digest it with the usual humour and disdain and get on with their real life.
This guy and his politics are completely alien to the general public of Scotland.
Most of the people of Scotland have seen a bigger rumpuses after the pubs close at the weekend. Let’s move on to more important matters.
Go away and give us peace Nigel.
Is it true the journos had only 3 hours notice of the press conference ? If so, the rentamob lefty demo got themselves organised pretty sharpish, eh? And who tipped them off?
I suspect there was a fair amount of stage management going on yesterday…
This BBC Scotland guy David Miller is turning into the hammer of the unionists, first Lamont and now Farage. Poor wee Nigel gets a couple of tricky questions and he throws his toys oot the pram and no mistake lol. It will make a change from the fawning adulation he recieves from the right wing msm in England. He whines of not getting a chance to air his vile policies, thing is people in Scotland are probably sick to the back teeth of hearing his drivel as he’s never off the telly with his right wing anti this that and the next thing rants that are rammed down our throats. It sure didnt take long for the BBC Scotland interviewer to scratch the surface and out popped the ugly anti Scottish racism.
I too think if anything this has helped our cause as decent Scots of all persuasions are well shot of him. They say the truth hurts so it’ll probably be a wee shock to his system as he throws out the words ‘racists’ and ‘scum’ yet he wants our votes! Go figure. I guess thats the easy option for Farage as the other one is to hold up a mirror to his policies and look himself in the eye. Im proud that Scots take the opposite view from right wing extremists. It shows that we have got something right. The singer Nikki Minaj would stand a better chance of getting our political votes than that clown.
“If I feel it in my (political) bones that we lost some votes then it’s safe to assume we did just that.!”
Wow, that’s that settled then 🙂
@balgayboy ‘ To be honest I reckon that the people in Scotland who have taking the time to view this little piece of nonsense will digest it with the usual humour and disdain and get on with their real life.’
Quite.
@Tamson
Since Farage’s visit was announced and trailed days beforehand, and as the venue is in the city centre of Edinburgh and as the change of time was announced early on then I think we can dismiss conspiracy theories as the results of those who don’t get how social media works.
It was within 15 minutes walk of the University, hardly a great mystery
If there was only 3 hours notice of the press conference yet there was a mob, 40 journalists and the police handy this has to have been a set-up.
It may also have beena miscalculation as it has probably backfired in Scotland while playing well to a section of English opinion (that we don’t want to know)
y
OK
@revstu
Today programme.
14 minutes to 9.
“Today programme.
14 minutes to 9.”
Are we sure it wasn’t in fact BBC News on the telly?
I think this has been great for the Yes campaign.
Young folk at work know i’m political, so were asking me what it was all about. I was able to get a few good points across.
Otherwise disinterested young folk are now starting to ask questions.
@erchie
seems I had picked up something wrong: apparently it was brought forward an hour, with only 2 hours notice given of the time change.
Just remember when dealing with Farage, that this man’s entire schtick is victimhood. UKIP’s entire motivating fact is victimhood. Therefore, giving him the opportunity to play the victim should be avoided. I think there are better, more successful ways of rebutting his message than with what happened yesterday. He is basically a con-artist whose mark is the media, and he is remarkably successful at that. So if you want to counter him, that’s his weak point – his media image. His party really is a one-man show, so damage his media image and damage UKIP.
“I think there are better, more successful ways of rebutting his message than with what happened yesterday.”
Yesterday had nothing to do with rebutting his message. We do that fine at the ballot box already.
@Clydebuilt
I’m still not sure yet whether you’re here as an agent provocateur or not, but I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now. You say:
“Who do you think scuffled with the Unionist gents at the March for Indy last September[?] So the public will start to link Indy with trouble.”
Either you are being paranoid, or deliberately ridiculous. I was standing right in front of those “gents” in Edinburgh last September. They were the ones being deliberately provocative in true right-wing Unionist style – giant Union Jacks, wearing hoods and scarves to hide their faces, giving ‘fuck you’ signs to the crowd. The guy that had the”scuffle” arrived and was standing right beside me and I heard him say, “Fuck this, enough of this shite.” before he jumped up to pull down the biggest Union Jack that had been tied to the trees. As he pulled down the flag to great cheers from those attending, he was attacked by one of the “gents” who proceeded to boot him in the head. If not for Edinburgh’s finest, then things could have become very nasty indeed, but they dealt with it well. The “gents” were taken away in cuffs screaming abuse at all around to great cheers, while the ‘flag-puller’ was also led away, this time to boos.
Don’t be coming on here and making claims you have no proof of. What happened was a guy got so provoked by Unionists out looking for trouble that he reacted and thus the ‘incident’.
I can’t be 100% sure that what occurred wasn’t a set-up, but unless, or until, evidence is provided that all involved are brilliant actors with perfect timing and are also top black-ops operatives I think we can dismiss your presumptions as being highly speculative, to say the least.
“Regarding EU membership. That is a matter for the people of Scotland but only when we are independent”
But that’s the point, the people of Scotland aren’t going to get a say on EU membership – the SNP plan to negotiate for Scotland to become an EU member before the next election and without giving us a choice.
Like the currency issue I strongly believe the people of Scotland should be given a choice on the EU before the SNP negotiate to join it, and that their refusal to give us any say could potentially damage our chances of getting independence.
But that’s the point, the people of Scotland aren’t going to get a say on EU membership – the SNP plan to negotiate for Scotland to become an EU member before the next election and without giving us a choice.
And if the people of Scotland object to that, they’ll have a chance to vote for an anti-EU party in the first independent election. Democracy’s ace, isn’t it?
@Tamson
Ah gotcha. That explains how that misunderstanding of the “Three Hours” started.
I saw messages flitting to and fro on Twitter advising folk that it had been pulled forward, but the protest had been planned anyway, it wasn’t spontaneous
@ Norsewarrior
Is that Green policy? If so, then we can vote at the next Scottish Parliament elections. EU membership is a policy were parties may offer the electorate different options in the same way they can on other issues.
Norsewarrior
The fact is that we (the Nation – as opposed to you and I) voted in a majority SNP government. They have a mandate to act on our behalf until voted out, which could happen after the 2016 election. As an academic exercise: what if the SNP’s answer to ALL questions was “we have no policy on that, but people can make up their own minds after independence”? I suspect that they would, rightly, be laughed out of town.
Consequently, it is right that they have a set/interim plan for what happens after the referendum, to avoid claims of chaos. This would not tie future governments’ hands, as people will vote for whatever parties have the policies they would wish to be implemented. As RevStu pointed out yesterday, Treaties/agreements can be made and unmade. Thus we would build the Scotland we needed/wanted.
Ultimately, no policy, no politician, no party will have the support of 100% of the people. Is it therefore sensible to do NOTHING on the basis that somebody may object? Or is it best to do what you promised to do until such a time as (1) events intervene (Keynes: “my opinion changes when the facts change, how about you?”) or (2) the electorate gives said party the Order of the Boot?
Independence is not about this or that policy. It is about allowing us to control our own destiny and choose our own path. That, Sir, is how democracy works.
As an addendum: that is why it is YES Scotland and not the SNP who are running hte campaign. But, as an independence supporter, surely to God you already know that?
@NW-
Do you make it a point of principle to avoid commenting on the subject of whatever thread you contribute to?
Go on, make an exception – your thoughts on Farage’s visit?
I am poretty sure someone might have told Norsewarrior that in an Independant Scotland that there will be various parties with different policies, and that the Independence vote is purely about Independence, and what happens after that is up to subject to change.
a list of those parties that might exist in an Independent scotland
SNP
Scottish (We mean it this time) Labour
Scottish Socialist Party
Scottish (we’re not happy with that bit) Conservatives
Scottish Liberals (Fuck the SDP)
Green Party
Those and the other parties that emerge will have different policies, but that the point of independence is to allow those in Scotland to chose which one of those futures we want.
You know, I am pretty sure this has been pointed out to Norse Warrior before, by one or two folk
Yet he returns with the record reset to the first track. Odd that
@revstu
Definitely on Today programme v. soft interview from Sarah Montague.
Heard it on the wireless this am and double checked on BBC 2:47. He came in at a time check.
“Heard it on the wireless this am and double checked on BBC 2:47. He came in at a time check.”
Curious. Listened all the way through from 2h45m to 2h55m and not there.
@Erchie-
As you probably know, NW is one of Life’s risk-takers. He was close to a red-card t’other day (on the Bad Karma) thread, then scarpered.
Now he’s back with the same old shite.
Here’s a song for you Norsey!:
There seems to be a reasonable assumption building that the whole event was stage managed; Edinburgh for an Aberdeen by-election/Farage pre-planning/ rent-a-mob publicity/BBC presence/multi-press attending/ Union-jack-ist soundbites/ protestant minority persecution statement/anti-English – anti-British/ racist scum-isms/ three or four mouthpieces shouting to camera/ minor police attendance/ major exposure publicity for Farage/ anti-independence vibes. etc.etc.
That all this was a ‘black arts op’ which succeeded because the press and TV attention was ready for it and also by conveniently diverting attention from the Nicola/Moore STV debate.
Who would argue with any of this?
@Barontorc-
If they were going to all the bother of organising a covert op, wouldn’t they at least have made an effort to do something dramatic e.g. throw a pie at him?
BBC Radio Scotland now reporting that two men were arrested – one for assault, one for breach of the peace…where did those come from?
Mind you, it does seem a tad fishy that the MSM is making such a big deal of it. It’s ‘Calmanballs’ territory for sure…
“And if the people of Scotland object to that, they’ll have a chance to vote for an anti-EU party in the first independent election.”
But by then the SNP will have already forced Scotland to become an EU member without giving us a choice, so even if we then vote overwhelmingly for an anti-EU party we won’t be able to do anything about it, unless you’re seriously suggesting we’ll become an EU member in March 2016 and then leave the EU again just a few months later?!
“They have a mandate to act on our behalf until voted out, which could happen after the 2016 election”
They have a mandate to act as a devolved government and implement the policies they proposed in their manifesto.
They don’t have a mandate to implement any policies that will in any way affect an independent Scotland.
“that is why it is YES Scotland and not the SNP who are running the campaign”
They are one and the same – everything Yes Scotland promotes is an SNP proposal, it doesn’t promote the policies of any other party.
“Go on, make an exception – your thoughts on Farage’s visit?”
I don’t particularly have any thoughts on it, he’s irrelevant to Scotland.
What’s that swinging by the waist of the guy wearing the plum coloured shirt in the right forefront of the above picture?
Is it a camera bag?
“I am poretty sure someone might have told Norsewarrior that in an Independant Scotland that there will be various parties with different policies”
I’m aware of that, what’s your point? What I am saying is that the SNP are planning to implement fundamentally important policies for an independent Scotland (such as what currency we’ll use and EU membership) without having a mandate to do so, before any of those other parties get a chance to put across their policies and before the people of Scotland have any say on those policies or which party’s proposals they prefer.
“What I am saying is that the SNP are planning to implement fundamentally important policies for an independent Scotland (such as what currency we’ll use and EU membership) without having a mandate to do so, before any of those other parties get a chance to put across their policies and before the people of Scotland have any say on those policies or which party’s proposals they prefer.”
Yeah, so what? If people don’t like that, they can vote them out in 2016 for someone who will withdraw Scotland from the EU.
The SNP won a majority in 2011. Until April 2016 they have a mandate to do anything they damn well like, including securing independence for Scotland within the EU. It was right there in the manifesto.
link to votesnp.com
Page 28, to be precise.
Man alive!
It’s a defiant final counterattack from NW!
He’s going for it…
2/5 NW is in the WoS sin-bin before 20.00 GMT.
@Norsewarrior
Okay, I’ll bite.
Even though you’re off-topic (once more), regarding your post at 4.57 pm: you say the SNP doesn’t have a mandate to implement important policies (WTF?), so, in your view, what are your proposals to make everything fair, fine and dandy in a pre-independence Scotland?
A divot visits Edinburgh, more divots harass him in the streets. So much for a civilised democracy, eh?
NorseWarrior
As Rev Stu will tell you, this referendum is a binary action. In or out of UK.
so what if Scotland is in the EU in 2016. If the Scottish electorate desire to be out then they will vote for a party that will do that.
Since, in 2011, the majority voted for a party intending to hold a referendum on the UK but stay in the EU, that’s the way it gets played for now.
It was in that manifesto thing.
Are you saying your wishes are the only ones that should be respected?
A musical tribute to NW’s last stand…with subtitles for WoS’s many Spanish readers.
What I am saying is that the SNP are planning to implement fundamentally important policies
Yes. They’re the government. Governments do that sort of thing.
@ Norsewarrior,
You are aware that the Scottish Government aka “The SNP” to quote you directly have no powers over deciding anything about the EU. Its devolved! That means that until we are Independent, changing EU status would be a little bit tricky even for Alex Salmond.
I know some people think he is some sort of King or God, but get real the man is only human, there is only so much that can be achieved with the powers that the country has.
Given the speed with which Westminster works, the Scots will have a say about the EU, if it is a political issue in the run up to the 2016 election. Westminster will not have a referendum for at least another year after that – despite it being promised by Westminster politicians for at least the last three successive Government leaders.
Think you mean “reserved”, Adrian. I do it all the time too 🙂
Yeh, well spotted, I was thinking it wasn’t devolved, didn’t think that one through properly whilst typing however 🙂
Norsewarrior
Cheers for the selective quoting and ignoring most of my point. I know you consider “The SNP” to be a monster, but they are popular and they have helped us get here today.
Your categorisation of yes as a front? Hilarious! Please inform Harvie, Fox, Margo, Grogan etc. They’d be shocked to see how they’re being used.
As I said to you in the past – as an independence supporter, at least TRY and support the independence campaign.Or at least be constructive? Advice beyond criticism of the SNP would help.
@ norsewarrior,
You’ll EFTA keep hoping the currency of your arguments turn’s out right in our Referendum for YES or NO to negotiations with and between the extant Sco and UK Govs and the evolving EU and associated membership with it that has emerged at the time.
However, as usual, you put the cart before the horse in arse about face speak.
Under the UK’s top-down overlordship, we have no effective say on such matters of import to the people in Scotland ….
…. unless the UK Gov’s arbitrary decisions happenstance match our personal and plural preferences in being ‘hey, that’s good for us yonder’ too.
As other’s have similarly worded their thoughts, our Referendum offers us the opportunity to vote on whether such matters of sharing our unique individual, joint and several being – our personal and plural sovereignty – with others should be dealt with the binary choice between Holyrood and Whitehall/Westminster being first and foremost in all things.
Or, to put it another way, whether or not to own our own democracy, in our land, and in our own state, with our own institutions of governance – including our own councils and parliament to which we elect our own governments under our own constitution.
Even the dead in the dunderheid should get the essence of existence in the “to be or not to be” question is the optimal autonomy of not having to ask it.
Nor indeed the West Lothian one if we had then had it to share.
Rev Stu @ 5:42pm: Game, set .… J (Worth putting a Page 28 banner up to point the link to saving refute time for us all in future to?)
Scottish (We mean it this time) LabourScottish (we’re not happy with that bit) ConservativesScottish Liberals (Fuck the SDP)
Brillant, crumbs all over ma keyboard 🙂
tsk @ my 8:42pm Para 5 should read “…. in our own land, in our own state, ….”
Rev Stu,
Re – the Farage interview on R4 ‘Today’ prog. I’m just back home, so don’t know if you managed to track down the interview but it’s there, I’ve just checked.
link to bbc.co.uk
Try about 2hr 49 min in (near the end of the show)
@ Vote Yes & leave the EU
What happens in Portugal, Greece and Spain is the fault of their own government who decided to spend the money inconsiderably, not because of the EU (I have been raised in the Continent and lived in Portugal), As far as I am concerned, other countries are doing extremely well…