Getting the message across
In this site’s view, there are just two things the Yes campaign needs to get across to the Scottish people in order to win the independence referendum. All the quibbling over this detail and that detail, as seen in the No camp’s ridiculous (and so far mythical) “500 questions”, will ultimately come down to two simple facts at the ballot box:
1. There will be NO significant new powers for the Scottish Parliament in the event of a No vote. If anything, the opposite will be true.
2. The Scottish people already want independence. They simply haven’t yet realised that the thing they want is called independence.
Win on those two, and the Yes side will win everything.
We’ve explored both of these aspects at considerable length on Wings Over Scotland. The Vote No Get Nothing tag is one of our most-read, and we’ve pondered a few times on the curious discrepancy in the way the Scottish public consistently says it wants Holyrood to control things like defence, welfare and taxation, yet opposes the constitutional state that that situation describes, namely independence.
So it was encouraging to read this morning of a poll showing that only 33% of Scots believe that the Unionist parties will deliver more powers in the event of a No victory. We suspect that number is already in decline compared to last year, and will continue to fall the closer we get to the vote and the more hollow the promises of Labour and the Tories are seen to be.
Point 2 follows logically from point 1, a fact which will become clearer and clearer to the Scottish electorate over the coming 16 months. Never mind what the polls say. The argument is being won, and where it leads, the vote is rarely very far behind.
500 questions! Are they really that stupid?
Apparently. [shrug]
Couldn’t agree more. The defining difference between Vote No and Vote YES. With YES all powers and responsibilities return to Holyrood where most recent polls agree they belong. Vote no and watch even the meagre powers already in use disappear like snaw aff a wossiname.
The electorate already seem in complete agreement as to which parliament is the most trustworthy. So what’s to choose people? Do you want to spend money on WMDs? Or would you rather see an increase in social housing, healthcare, schools, retention of hard won benefits, the binning of iniquitous scourges like the bedroom tax? Would you rather see an oil fund or an oil defecit? Would you rather pay for MPs fiddled expenses or MSPs monitored ones?
This is a no brainer, ditch remote governance for government on your own doorstep. Vote YES.
@Dave MH
Why yes, yes they are. 🙂
To be fair
Will alien abductions increase in a separationist Scotland?
is a perfectly valid question.
/\(oO)/\
I bet the 500 questions was actually a punny Lamont got for the devolved income tax debacle…
I’ve asked many Better Together people for a list of the “published questions”, they don’t appear to know where they can be found. One BT supporter did say that it might just have been a press release after the event and the BBC were mistaken in reporting that the 500 questions had been published. Although one of their not so bright supporters, when asked where the link to the 500 questions actually were he wrote ” Soon, Sooner than the SNP will publish 500 answers” Well, it would be difficult answering a question that had never been asked.
It’s important that people understand that it isn’t an election, it’s vastly more important than that. It might be a once in a lifetime chance, since if the vote is No then steps will probably be taken to ensure that Holyrood is never again in a position to call a referendum.
I have for long felt that the main danger is that people would not understand the enormous significance of the moment, and the opportunity would pass – if not forever, then for a long time. However at a family party at the weekend (I have a very extended family) my wife and I took along a bag of car stickers and lapel badges, not sure of our reception. Normally only myself, my sister and my son rabbit on about politics at family gatherings, but here everyone was at it, and the badges were accepted and in some cases put on at once. I heard many stories of family members being told by friends and colleagues that they must vote yes, and that we must be independent.
Not a statistically meaningful sample, of course – but maybe a straw in the wind?
Someone elsewhere said, quite well IMHO, that this is between Power and Policy.
The NO Better crowd want to bind up the YES campaign in pointless discussions about the minutiae of POLICY, which NO ONE can clarify as policy should follow need. Either to correct a wrong, or to respond to changing circumstances. Was it Keynes who said, “when the facts change, I change my opinion – what do you do?” These policy alternatives will be put to the electorate in party manifestos in time for the vote in 2016.
POWER is the key, as this is WHO decides which package of policies get the chance. At present Scotland gets that change 1 in 3. That is NOT democracy. Will we make mistakes in future? Of course we will. It’s part of life, the difference is that it will be OUR mistakes, and WE can throw out the numpties who tries to con us. At present we can”t do that.
Independence is about Scotland making decisions for itself. That’s all. Although it is a pretty big ALL!
@h&s
reminds me of the story of the tramp (possibly, but not necessarily Scottish ~) who was stopped by polis in Trafalgar square as he was throwing a strange dust all over the place. When asked why, he replied, “It keeps the pink elephants away”. The polis replied that there weren’t any pink elephants in London. To which the tramp responded, “See … IT WORKS!”
I was polled recently by YouGov asking, among other things, for my views on Trident. So far, I have not seen any reports which seem to relate to this survey. I did, however, find this question from a poll of October 12 last year:
Do you think that the Scottish Parliament should have more powers so that it can bring about the removal of Trident nuclear weapons from Scottish waters?
The response was 46% Yes, 35% No (56.7% Yes, excluding DK).
this is a clear example of what the Rev identifies as:
The Scottish people already want independence. They simply haven’t yet realised that the thing they want is called independence.
I imagine that most people will understand that the Scottish Parliament is not going to get these powers without independence.
This seems to go along with the Dundee University 5 million questions project which is headed up by David Torrance, yes that David Torrance.
link to dundee.ac.uk
If the referendum returns a No result, the unionist parties will use polls such as this is say “Look, people didn’t believe there would be further devolution if Scotland remains in the union, and they voted to stay in the union. Therefore people don’t want further powers devolved to Scotland.” The poll is, in part, self-prophesying.
link to thescottishsun.co.uk
i thought the media couldnt get any worse but Tommy Ball pointed out this little nugget from the sun where they manage to get Alex Salmond and admitted paedophile and sex offender Stuart hall into the same sentence. Am i being over sensitive here?
“http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/papercolumnists/4916936/Sloppy-Alex-Salmond-given-a-right-pounding.html
i thought the media couldnt get any worse but Tommy Ball pointed out this little nugget from the sun where they manage to get Alex Salmond and admitted paedophile and sex offender Stuart hall into the same sentence. Am i being over sensitive here?”
That’s extraordinary. Nicoll is a hard one to figure out. Best I can tell he’s one of the large group of media types who despises ALL politicians, so he’s as likely to slag off either camp. This week it’s our turn to cop it, but anyone who thinks Lamont won a magnificent victory at last week’s FMQs probably over-refreshed themselves on the holiday weekend and hasn’t quite sobered up yet.
They have 500 questions for us ,we should hammer them with just 1
What will you do for Scotland if we Vote no?
I know many posters on Wings will be actively involved in the Yes campaign but I can’t stress enough it is up to each and everyone of us to get of our arses and engage.
I was leafleting my local streets at the weekend. The TV and the newspapers are not going to change their inherent bias so we have to put our positive message in every household, in every street in Scotland time after time in the next 500 days.
We also so need to let family friends and work colleagues know that we are pro-Yes and are actively campaigning. I didn’t think I could actively campaign at work (it didn’t feel right to bring politics into the workplace if you know what I mean) but my colleagues all know my views and in the last month it is they who have started asking me questions and asking for leaflets and directions to the Yes web page. Same with friends and family. The more we all do this the more we “normalise” YES.
O/T great article poll in Sundays Observer which was bad news for Miliband re. asking people if they thought he was PM material. Had to read it twice because it appeared to day that 25% of Labour voters didn’t think he would ever be PM!
Better together constantly attack the Yes campaign for uncertainty and failing to provide answers when it is themselves and Westminster who actually are REFUSING to discuss the issues!! It’s about time people realised that Westminster are refusing to discuss things which could answer most of the 500 questions and clarify their uncertainties!!
link to newsnetscotland.com
I for one am getting totally fed up with the No campaign’s constant attempts to insult my intelligence by assuming that the public are stupid. They don’t actually want the answers to their 500 questions because it would prove beyond all doubt the only ‘NO’ is the case for the retention of the union. Westminster can stall all they want but the truth always comes out in the end and that’s why a YES will inevitably prevail.
I think BetterTogether are shooting themselves in the foot with this “500 Questions” thing.
Our brains are programmed to be able to process a very small number of things at any one time. One of the first things we learned about web development at uni was that any menus or sub-menus should have no more than 5 – 9 items on them, because the brain can’t really process more than that at once. It’s similar to the reasoning I’ve seen Stu give for limiting how many blogs he links to on here, since the huge blogrolls on other sites inevitably lead to people not clicking on any of them, due to the list being too unwieldy.
Releasing 500 questions is utterly absurd. They know fine that no one is actually going to read them – in fact, they’re totally banking on it. This is all part of the tactic to try and make independence just sound like too much hassle, and to turn people off the debate. “500 questions? Bugger that, I’m not even going to TRY and get involved in it.”
But the reality is all they’re doing is highlighting the absurdity of their position. They’ve basically just shown us what some of us have been saying from the start – that there’s no point answering their questions, because every time you do, they have another one lined up. It’s like they think we’re going to say “oh shit, 500 questions? Och, let’s just give up now, folks. They’ve found us out, there’s too much uncertainty, and we’re never going to win.” But what they’re really done is basically taken themselves out of the game.
They remind me of a customer my company has which keeps demanding we make adjustments to one of our products just to suit them. It’s reached the point where it’s just not worth our time trying to effectively rewrite the whole system, so we’ve just said “sorry, but it makes no financial sense for us to try to change the system to meet all your demands”, and focused on the next customer instead.
They’re turning off more and more undecided voters every week with their deranged efforts. This isn’t even “rope-a-dope” stuff – this is Muhammed Ali’s opponent punching himself in the balls, thinking the referee is going to assume it was Ali and disqualify him. How unfortunate for them that the referee is looking on in bewilderment as they do it.
“Although one of their not so bright supporters, when asked where the link to the 500 questions actually were he wrote ” Soon, Sooner than the SNP will publish 500 answers” Well, it would be difficult answering a question that had never been asked.”
Hahahaha!
I’m surprised that Yes Scotland haven’t made more of the possibility of greatly reducing fuel duty in an independent Scotland. That would have an immediate effect on the pockets of a vast percentage of the population, and would surely have a huge impact on voting intention.
You would have thought they might have come up with some game-changers. The sample of the 500 Questions isn’t going to set the heather alight, is it?
:: When will the Scottish Government release the full legal advice regarding Scotland’s position in the EU following independence? Possibly immediately, after all it’s the SG’s adherence to the UK Ministerial Code that precludes them from releasing it now.
:: An independent Scotland would no longer be protected by the British Armed Forces, would new Scottish Armed forces units be created? Um, mebbe’s aye, mebbe’s naw. If the newly formed Scottish Army wishes some historic regimental titles, there are plenty to choose from which the British Army have cut or amalgamated out of existence.
:: What progress has been made in determining the “affordability” of state pensions outlined by Finance Secretary, John Swinney, in the leaked cabinet paper? Scotland’s pension affordability position is far better than the UK’s.
:: Will patients from England have to pay for treatment in a Scottish NHS or will Scottish patients have to pay for treatment in a foreign country? No, but there may be a transfer of funds between the EHS and SHS as is already planned for cardiac patients in NI being sent to Dublin. link to bbc.co.uk
:: Would a separate Scotland enter teams into the Olympics and Paralympics? Yes, just as we always have done for the Commonwealth Games.
Serious question.
Would the SNP have more chance of hanging on to their councillors if they just picked random members of the public to stand as candidates? *
link to vote-2012.proboards.com
link to bbc.co.uk
* Then again, perhaps they are.
“Will patients from England have to pay for treatment in a Scottish NHS”
I’s looking likely they’ll soon have to pay for treatment in the English NHS. Which already exists, btw, as does NHS Scotland.
I agree, Rev Stu.
As I said in a recent post, my staunch Unionist father, has twice shown pause when we talk about Scottish politics. Very recently, he said, he wants answers. The one thing that worries him is his pension (he fears that if Scotland goes indy, then Westminster will savage Scotland in reply). He fears for his financial future, even though I have told him that his pension will be fine (barring an absolute collapse of Sterling!).
It is happening! People who said ‘No’, are now at a ‘Pause’ stage. They need answers, and if those answers are delivered correctly, then, yes …I think Independence will be won.
I think the MOST important thing is to NORMALISE being in favour of Yes and of voting Yes.
i.e., that Yes supporters are normal, it is normal to be a Yes supporter;
and that it is normal for Scotland to want to be independent – and that it is normal to be independent, joining the 193 normal countries who are already members of the UN.
Currently the No/KnowYourPlace campaign (and in particular SLab) strategy is to generate media coverage that gives the impression that Yes supporters are the extreme (irrational , or bigoted etc.) ones; that being in the Union is, because that’s the way we have experienced things all our lives, the normal situation. We need to both reject that and be aware that that is their agenda when engaging with them.
I have started to tell people I am a ‘Normalist’. It gets people asking what’s that? – which is good, gives a chance to explain using a lot of positive messages; and also has irked unionist trolls – always a good sign!
Hahahahaha!
I applied to undertake what I thought was going to be training with a view to standing as a councillor, but when I got there it turned out to be an assessment day which expected participants already to know it all. I expressed my complete willingness to learn, but this was not enough. Despite having been a party member for 20 years, I was rejected on the grounds that I didn’t have sufficient knowledge of the workings of local government, and this could be a disadvantage during an election campaign.
Well, duh, this was about six months before the actual election. There was plenty of time to get to grips with all that, for someone who was bright, committed and on-message. But no, bugger off they said.
I had been encouraged to apply by our local councillor who is getting on a bit, and who saw me as a possible successor. He wasn’t best pleased, but there you go. I’m not the only one in our local branch this has happened to.
Then when I hear these stories about what the people they have selected end up doing, I just shake my head.
Would a separate Scotland enter teams into the Olympics and Paralympics?
Honestly?
I think my alien abduction question has more credibility.
What did they do? Get a focus group of 6 year old kids who weren’t quite sure what being an independent country means?
Lianachan says:
6 May, 2013 at 12:16 pm
I’m surprised that Yes Scotland haven’t made more of the possibility of greatly reducing fuel duty in an independent Scotland. That would have an immediate effect on the pockets of a vast percentage of the population, and would surely have a huge impact on voting intention.
I think that would be left up to the general election in 2016 with each party putting there manifesto forward.
But over the last few months on FMQ i have noticed that its mostly always about independance maybe the SNP should try distance themselves from the YES campaign and question put to AS at FMQ should be a short sharp answer. Giving the BT mob less ground to do there little performances on and from that less publicity so on that If the YES campaign answer the 500 questions in a small report stating their position and again that would through the BT mob off their stride.
I think the MOST important thing is to NORMALISE being in favour of Yes and of voting Yes.
i.e., that Yes supporters are normal, it is normal to be a Yes supporter;
I think that’s really important. I was talking with a friend at choir, while we were on tour in Germany, and she mentioned Trident and said she thought the decision wasn’t yet taken about replacing it and she hoped it would not be replaced. I said, well you know what to do if you want rid of Trident. She kind of looked at me and I said, vote Yes next year.
She sort of threw her arms up in horror and said “I’ll certainly not be doing that!” Then she sirt of looked at me and said “You’re not going to vote Yes, surely, are you?” I think the look on my face made it obvious. She then said let’s not discuss it because we’ll only have a row.
I wasn’t sure what to do, so I launched into a short but impassioned tirade declaring that I was absolutely terrified of a No vote, because of what we’d lose. I said I really, really didn’t want to become a pensioner in a Scotland that was still ruled from Westminster.
I don’t know what effect it had, but she seemed to look a bit pensive.
The thing that surprised me was her question. “You’re not going to vote Yes, surely, are you?” What, the SNP sticker that has been on my car as long as we’ve known each other never got noticed? Nor the two Yes Scotlandstickers that have now replaced it? Nor the Yes Scotland badge I actually had pinned to the jacket I was wearing that day and which was draped over my chair in the restaurant we were eating in at the time?
I bet the 500 questions turn out to actually be the same four or five questions repeated
1. Why are you wanting to be bombed by terrorists and North Koreans?
2. Why are you wanting to ruin our economy because of vague things we haven’t really defined like leaving the EU or losing the AAA credit rating?
3. Why is Alex Salmond a suspicious chap?
4. WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?
11. Where is this Squirrel you speak of?
Or more likely given their counting skills, closer to 250.
Whilst they are faddling with their 500 dumb ass questions we may as well get on with spreading good news pieces like this:
link to newsnetscotland.com
I suppose we’ll struggle through somehow. 🙂
I would love to see Rev Stu attending this forthcoming dinner of the self-selected great and the good of the Scots political twitterati. Smart, Hothersall etc will all be there at this #twinner along with several nats wanting a pat on the head for being ever so nicey-nicey and never saying anything to upset anyone ever.
The whole thing gives me the boak personally.
link to doodle.com
After those two clear points are made, and for those who are not sure, then it should be made clear that around 12% of those saying No are against existing Devolution, not just Independence.
The legal position of existing Devolution is not secure, and there are those who would get rid of what we have.
There is only one question in reality and that is “Do you think the Scottish people are uniquely the only people in the world incapable of running their own country? Would you like us become the 194th independent country in the world?”
That’s actually two questions I realise but the second is the logical follow up to the first.
If the (stupid)response to the first question is “But what about pensions/taxes/ defence/ Eastenders/ passports/shipbuilding/black death/fill in your own inanaity here you just recruit another small country which is doing whatever perfectly adequately (or rather better than the UK) to your argument.
Without trying to sound patronising our target must be to get the votes on the day of the politically uninformed. This cadre of the electorate don’t do complicated or deeply detailed politics. They tend to assume what they believe to be the sensible majority position. Thus respected public figures articulating one position or other has a major effect and simple killer facts like Finland can do it or New Zealsnd can do it are very much more effective than convoluted policy detail. I am entirely confident that the informed movement to independence as the sensible position is well underway.
The 500 questions is just another blunder being partially obscured as such by a shit media
handyandy says:
I think that would be left up to the general election in 2016 with each party putting there manifesto forward.
I don’t mean that Yes Scotland should promise to reduce it, but I don’t think it would hurt to remind people that it’s something that Scotland currently has no control over that it would be possible to change for the better after independence.
500 questions?
I can think of only about 5 main issues that may be of concern to some voters – most of which have already been answered. as for the other 495 I reckon it will read something like:
What will the price of milk be in an independent Scotland.?
Should Johann Lamont be the FM in a newly independent Scotland?
What happens if I fall sick while on holiday in England?
What happens when Shetland votes to stay in the Union and Scotland has no oil?
As a former conservative all it took was a read at the McCrone report then about an hour or two research on the internet and I was firmly pro-indy.
As someone said recently, once you know the truth Yes is a solid vote.
I have a question over these (500 questions) that the NO campaign has posed due to it being 500 days from the referendum.
If I wait until it is 400 days to the referendum does that reduce the number of questions to 400 as well, and so forth for 300 days, 200 days, 100 days and therefore on the 18th Sep 2014, zero days equals zero questions. Is that how it works ? seems pretty self defeating to me.
Vote NO, get nothing.
Vote YES, get a country.
Hail Alba.
These “500 Questions” are going to be about as fair and honest as Labour’s “100 Promises” to the people of Glasgow in the run-up to the council elections, aren’t they? Labour will never fulfill those promises, and Better Together will never produce 500 questions – unless they are going to stoop to asking what kind of braid an Admiral in the Scottish Navy might wear on his shoulder-boards after independence, and suchlike.
@ Megz, I read a BBC story the other day about the imperialist neo-con historian Niall Ferguson, who made a homophobic comment about John Maynard Keynes despite the fact that Keynes almost certainly wasn’t gay.
The story made a point – a very obviously pointless point – of stating that “Prof Ferguson was born in Scotland,” apropos of absolutely nothing. It was hard to imagine a piece about the latest mad rant from David Starkey containing a similarly orphaned biographical detail about him being born in England. It was just hanging there in the article for no reason.
With Ian Smart suggesting that the Scots are somehow uniquely pre-disposed to racism, the BBC seemed to be saying here that we are prone to innate homophobia too – this despite the fact that Niall Ferguson is one of their good boys, more fervently Unionist and imperial-minded than Queen Victoria.
Are we over-sensitive for noticing such things? Most people would say yes. Sometimes I’m just not sure. But any complaint would see us branded as paranoid and obsessed, perhaps with some reason, so best to let the small stuff pass. There are big and overt smears to worry about nearly every day.
I was in Ayr High street on Saturday when I saw a curious thing. Loads of kids and parents carrying tiny Saltires. Stuck into prams, hats, hands and so on. Turned out to be YES leaflet teams handing out leaflets, flags, answering questions and generally with a smile and a hail and well met attitude. Now from the numbers of hand outs trundling up and down the street they’d been busy, busy people that day. Got cornered myself coming out of Boots. Needless to say I answered their voting intent question in the affirmative.
My point being, the approach which was made. There was no mention of Westminster parties collectively or separately. There was no knocking of individual politicians, there was no attempt to mention or denigrate BT (although the temptation for them must be overpowering some days), no they went straight into what independence can do for you.
That’s the difference between the campaigns.
Doug Daniel says:
6 May, 2013 at 12:13 pm
I think BetterTogether are shooting themselves in the foot with this “500 Questions” thing
Very good point, I would normaly read the BT points, just to see what facts we need to overcome thier latest scare, but when I saw 500 questions my first thought was, ‘nae chance, I’m far to busy to read that tripe’
@Dave McEwan Hil: “you just recruit another small country which is doing whatever perfectly adequately (or rather better than the UK) to your argument.”
Yep I have used that one. During a 14,000 treaties discussion I had with colleagues I said, ‘Look at Estonia. Population, 1.5m. It became independent from the USSR. They managed somehow to negotiate the treaties and sort out a military & all the other things an independent country needs. How hard can it be?’
It was met with a stunned silence!
I was accosted by Scientologists in Edinburgh once with a 500 question multiple choice. Needless to say it didn’t seem to convert me to the “faith” So I am sure 500 questions by BT will turn a lot of people against them.
On a second point I wonder if BT have a real underlying problem with numbers. Clinically it would be described as dyscalculia. It either that or pure hyperbole.
Otherwise Rev. Your analysis is spot on
@Macart:
That’s the way it should be – normalise Yes (a great phrase). Any change manager will tell you that people feel anxious and isolated to start with, but the more that people around them seem happy with the idea, the more confident they become.
It’s anecdotal – but when I’m out on a Yes street stall handing out stuff, the response is positive, and people look as though they are having fun. Doorstep canvassing is when the anxieties and doubts are most prominent…
There’s a bit more to Independence than having a sticker or a flag to wave: but in terms of making Yes seem normal, it’s where it starts. I have really high hopes that this year’s March & Rally will result in a step change
@kininvie
I think people always seem a bit more defensive on their doorsteps. I have higher hopes for the high street or march/rally approach. Turn them into real events which people can join in or engage on their own terms. Fully agree on the term normalise, its what we want after all, to make Scotland a normal country that takes responsibility for its own affairs in an interdependent world. Not much of a flag waver myself, but I think the teeny flags were aimed at the kids, perhaps balloons next time. 😀
Morag and beachthistle,
Like you, I note people’s surprise that someone like me, who is def not ‘extreme’ in any shape or form, intend to vote Yes for a better Scotland. Planning to join the group in Glasgow on 18th May re BBC bias, along with my very reserved husband, and hope that all the other quite ordinary folk who can get there will do the same. As you said, it really is important for Scots to realise that it is completely normal to choose to vote Yes, and to be excited by the prospect of living in an independent Scotland. Hoping there will be HUGE numbers on the day, so that it gets noticed!
@morag
“But no, bugger off they said.”
Perhaps they were discomfited by your tendency to describe people you disagree with as ‘fruitcakes’. Just a suggestion in case you want to try again.
But you’re right on the money at 12:51 – we need to normalise Yes and expose the No vote as absurd and illogical (apologies for sounding like Mr Spock). This could be a family and friends campaign and we should be starting to tell our nearest and dearest that we all know the wicked silliness has to stop, and on September 18th we have the opportunity to stop it. Vote for decency, or at least a chance at it.
The 500 questions bull is a decoy by the Unionists to take us away from positive news like Scotland sitting on oil and gas revenues of up to 4 trillion. This is the news that the Unionist msm will be desperate to bury. Its not for Scottish eyes otherwise they’d be toast. Spread the good news and season it with ‘vote no and get nothing’. Then watch the bitter together lot panic more.
I see some wacky things in my life with all the No camps lies and silliness. They cant answer simple questions. What I do know is this, Westminster and the BBC think all things North are scummy and that Scotland not only is like the English North but a Laugh too. They name drop here and there about, ‘and this is Mr/Mrs./Miss So and So born in Scotland, so wots your thoughts on the crisis in the 2 Koreas’ like infering a vote against being robbed day, and I cannot stress this more, Day, and night is even remotely desireable. Dont Forget exactly HOW Scotland ‘became’ part of the UK. Dont forget its been no different than whats happened in more recent history, East Timor comes to mind, save for almost 800 years of domination. So far Scotland Bleeds Oil, Money, Brains, Minerals, Agriculture and so much more Never to return South never to be thanked or heard from again. EXCEPT in a horrible take on Oliver Twist where Westminster and their media friends come bowl out and hands at the ready, no please just, i’ll take more now. Vote YES if I could I’d vote YES! Your money, your riches,, your taxes your NHS belong to you… their 500 questions scream contempt and dissolution and disrespect. The answers are nothing but crowing about what they have spent eons Robbing from Scotland and the Scottish People! Look at ATOS the DWP are looking to have them manage medical and Pensions youve paid good money into your whole lives!!! Vote YES! Vote for Holyrood, if for nothing more you can physicaly get to see your MP to talk to! You understand the game of Chinese Whispers/Telephone, you whisper into the persons ear next to you they repeat what they thought they heard to the next person untill it comes back around or gets to the end where the person says whats got to them, My point is that is what being governed from so far away is like. London isnt viewable on what would be the ‘National’ weather map for Scotland on the Evening News Thats how far away it is. Last but not least, ever notice how the ‘trials’ for breaking up NHS and WCA and a whole host of other wicked social exsperiments seem to be tested on Scots in Scottish cities and towns and villages? Why cant the English try their science exsperiments on their own people not on occupied dominated people? Scots dont speak ‘Scottish’ because for a very long time it was illegal to.. Its a Leverage of time they are depending on that you wont care or believe your Scottish… They know your Scottish right untill you open your wallet and as soon as you close it your Scottish again….Vote YES!
Vronsky said:
Perhaps they were discomfited by your tendency to describe people you disagree with as ‘fruitcakes’. Just a suggestion in case you want to try again.
I describe fruitcakes as fruitcakes. I didn’t meet any fruitcakes that day. Funnily enough, 9/11 truthers seem only to exist online, as if contact with reality causes them to vaporise.
Jamie Thornton – the list of names there is quite revealing, isn’t it? If you wrote a list of people on Twitter who have announced what a terrible place they think Wings is and how it’s doing nothing but harm to the independence debate, and then compared it to the list of people looking to attend that Twinner, there would be a remarkably high crossover. Not 100% by any means, but not far off.
That’s why it’s extremely problematic for this self-selected clique to be allowed to moderate the standard of debate online, which is exactly what many of them try to do. They’ve been brought together because of their love of politics, so it’s fairly obvious what the main topics of conversation will be. Even if there was to be some sort of “no politics” rule, it’s simply human nature to fall back onto common ground when there’s a lull in conversation, and in any gathering of people, you’re going to talk about the things that most people can relate to.
When you look at that list, it’s pretty clear why so many of them come out with the exact same criticisms of Wings and various individuals who participate in the independence debate online. I see a few names who clearly are people of their own mind, but for an awful lot of them, it’s hard not to get the impression that there’s a lot of groupthink going on, with people taking their eye off the independence ball and putting their friendships with folk in that group ahead of the main goal we’re all supposed to be fighting for.
The stark difference in levels of condemnation for people outside that group who break their rules of online conduct, and those within it who do the same, shows you why you have to be careful about making friends with folk on the other side of a debate. Last night’s shenanigans with Ian Smart were a perfect example, as someone outside that group making similar comments would have been absolutely pilloried, rather than being given the benefit of the doubt like he was.
I find it bewildering that people can say they are totally
against the way the country is being run; tuition fees in England,
Trident, war (illegal or otherwise), poverty, bedroom tax, ATOS
demeaning the unemployed etc.
And yet when asked they say they will vote NO.
I do not understand this mentality, but perhaps it is
the whole ‘fear factor’ of change.
Surely given now well the NO Better Together team are able to count (re: recent BT “event” in Edinburgh – 600 people! – Aye right) there are probably only 50 questions anyway!
@Macart said – I suppose we’ll struggle through somehow.
Loved Clootie’s comment below the article…
We need to get rid of this stuff before it ruins us – has anyone tried burning it?
@dougdaniel @jamie thornton
So is a Twinner – new term to me – akin to a large dinner party of people, all with Twittering accounts, who think they’re shaping our world?
Anyone in their right mind would have gone for 5 good reasons for why we would be better together, but this is the BT team we are talking about.
The only conclusion I can come to, is that they have spent so long scare mongering in dribs and drabs while the only progress they’ve made is backwards, the guy holding the shovel has just said lets chuck all our s*^t (questions) at the wall and some of it is bound to stick. Meanwhile he is completely unaware that BT are suffering from verbal diarrhoea.
(Is this satire?)
There are three thought processes at work here with this 500 Questions nonsense: First of all it is to bring down the debate to minutiae level, each question and answer to be laboriously argued and debated over endlessly to make the debate tiresome. Secondly, to generate anti-SNP headlines and negativity from any given answers and thirdly, about 490 questions are a block, not meaningful, as the only thing people are really worried about after independence is money… Will my pension be safe? Will I be better off and will welfare and benefits be affected?
Albalha – well aye. When I went on music forums ten years ago or so, folk used to organise meet ups before gigs and stuff, and then it turned into organising meet ups for their own sake. And afterwards, they’d all be singing from the same hymn sheet, start picking on the same people, set certain agendas and various other types of cliquey behaviour.
This is basically the Twitter equivalent of that.
@Stuart Black
He does have a turn of phrase. 🙂
If I mind right, clootie actually works in the oil sector and he’s been predicting the long term future of the oil industry for the past two years. Very much a case of who knew? Just about anyone working in the industry apparently. Again though the other team would rather we lived in abject fear of that volatile resource.
Anyone in their right mind would have gone for 5 good reasons for why we would be better together,
No one in their right mind could think of five good reasons.
Some really interesting views here from 40 musicians in Scotland. 13 say Yes, 7 say No and the rest are undecided. There’s an overwhelming sense of “I WANT to vote Yes, but there’s something stopping me” amongst most of the undecided folk – one or two making it more blatant than the others. As you would expect, the Noes are all very negative, with one actually using the phrase “we’re all in this together”.
Justin Currie from Del Amitri’s response is utterly bizarre, though. He’s either taking the piss, or he’s just a very bitter man, possible annoyed that we didn’t send “Don’t Come Home Too Soon” to number one in 1998. Although it also explains why his band would write such a perfect example of the Scottish cringe in the first place – “och, we know we’re shite, but try not to embarrass yourselves too much, eh lads?”
link to thepopcop.co.uk
@dougdaniel
Oh dear, sounds like social media engineering. I can see why J Thornton felt a tad vomity.
@morag
With love from Vronsky:
link to bbc.co.uk
Pensions for those already getting a pension up to the day of independence will still get it
paid by the UK. This has been confirmed in writing to a pensioner mate who wrote to
the UK pensions dept and said he as concerned that if Scotland voted YES he would lose
his pension. They replied that Scots Pensioners would be treated the same as those
UK Expats who now stayed in Spain etc they would still get their pension paid as they
had contributed to it for a lifetime. So when you hear of anybody worried about their pension
tell them that the UK will continue to pay it, Myself I would be more worried that the
UK could not pay the pensions as the economy is toast. The IMF will be running us before
the referendum. That’s the view of many an economist, except they don’t call it the IMF
but a technocrat. That’s code for the IMF.
So we need to get out of the UK or to be forever tied to a bankrupt delusional imperialistic
nobody.
Are you suggesting that the majority of people are too stupid to realise that they want independance?
“Are you suggesting that the majority of people are too stupid to realise that they want independance?”
If I was suggesting that, that’s what I’d have said. But it isn’t what I said, so you figure it out.
The Herald reports that Fergus Hood will still vote Yes.
link to heraldscotland.com
The Scotsman doesn’t mention it.
link to scotsman.com
Hi Laura, really interested to hear that you went from conservative to supporting Yes 🙂
I think it would be really useful to have, maybe some sort of regular article like the ‘and finally’ bits in which people who’ve recently come over to Yes are interviewed briefly about what changed their minds. It would really help us to see what arguments, websites, events etc are bringing people over to our side.
What you reckon Rev?
STV also reports that Fergus Hood will be voting Yes.
link to news.stv.tv
The BBC doesn’t.
link to bbc.co.uk
“What you reckon Rev?”
I’m going to intercept The Rev here – people flip when they recognise that the question is important.
@Macart: Yes, great comment, it made me laugh. I too work in the Oil & Gas industry, in Kazakhstan now, for my sins. Spent twenty years in the North Sea though, and it is common knowledge that companies understress reserves for tax and accountion reasons. Increasingly efficient recovery techniques and the probability of a huge harvest to be discovered on the Atlantic side leads me to conclude that it is not beyond the realms of possibility that we will still be pumping the stuff ashore in 100 years from now.
Has anyone tried burning the stuff? LOL!
Doug
That was an interesting poll and it does demonstrate that a lot of the undecideds have a heart that leans to Yes but they want some reassurance about the actualities of being independent. 500 days to build a cast iron case..that is distinctly doable.
I think Justin was channelling Groundsman Willie
Accountion? Doh! Accounting…
@Doug Daniel
I linked to the popcop article and boy do I feel my age. I only recognised about a handful if that, of these artists.
Clunk did you hear that noise? It was the sound of two Del Amitri CDs going into the bin. Justin Curry is a vile p***k.
What has happened to our radical youth what on earth has gone wrong with them? Just about every one of the undecided viewpoints roughly translated to “I’m voting no but I am to worried about my album sails to actually admit it.”
It is about forty years since my musical hey-day but if you had asked the likes of Frankie Miller, Maggie Bell or Alex Harvey the same question I am uncertain of what answer you would have got (I think a definite Yes from Alex Harvey. “Anthem”) But whatever the answer was it wouldn’t have been the wishy washy rubbish that most of this lot spouted.
Weeverydisapointedfacethingy!
This ‘twinner’ says to me that some folk must think Independence is only a game.
The thought of sitting down to dinner with some of the folk mentioned is impossible for me to contemplate.
“The thought of sitting down to dinner with some of the folk mentioned is impossible for me to contemplate.”
There are only about four people in that list I wouldn’t happily drown in the soup if nobody was looking, as much in the interests of the debate as of independence per se. And one of those is borderline.
Re: Fergus Hood
all this crap on Aberdeenshire council is going on in my back yard as they say. Serious case of folk thinking they are bigger than the team. Not happy with my local councillors over the whole leadership thing after it happened. Following the elections last year the local papers would have you think the only councillor who did anything was the Tory one. She had a reduced vote whereas the SNP vote was up so much they gave two councillors around here
helps the unionists that the local rag is JP owned
@Stuart Black
Used to work in refinery P.I.D myself a few decades back and the old man was 35yrs with BP. Can’t get used to the bollocks the politicos spout on something they know nothing about. I’m a big fan of just saying to folks…. follow the money.
@Doug Daniels: Justin Currie from Del Amitri’s response is utterly bizarre.
Interesting juxtaposition, the contrast between the preceding post from Karine Polwart to Mr Currie’s sums up the difference in the quality of the Yes campaign’s outlook to that of the nay-sayers. Well said Karine.
Hi Gfaetheblock
Maybe you can clear something up for me/others. Better Together said they had 600 for the Edinburgh Launch. However, the room can only hold 300 safely and a pics head count suggested maybe 220.
How did they overestimate so much? Was it Darling that did the math?
@TMITJ: Just two rules, boys and girls. Don’t shoot bullets, and don’t piss in the water supply. Alex was a YES vote!
On the musicians’ poll looks like most of the women are YES voters, interesting as we’re always hearing women are largely against.
BTW, if this site is anything to go by, people employed in the Oil and Gas sector are, probably, majority YES voters.
people employed in the Oil and Gas sector are, probably, majority YES voters.
I’d concur. Most definitely. Only one in my office is havering on devo max, but recent events (no more powers even from Labour) should swing him. That and the prospect of UKIP in Westminster working with the Tories.
@Albalha
Don’t work there anymore, but on and off I still handle print work for a lot of the sector. Could see this lot coming a mile away just from the last twelve months investment. 🙂
Love to see how they’re going to spin this into imminent disaster. Maybe they’ll just go down the track of not reporting it at all.
The Man in the Jar
“What has happened to our radical youth what on earth has gone wrong with them?”
When a Dad`s record collection is more radical than his offspring`s musical tastes, you know revolution skips a generation (or two).
“Kick out the jams, Muthafuckas!”
– MC5
So where are these 500 questions then?
Albalha – Aye, I saw that too. Only one woman isn’t a Yes, and to be honest she sounds like the kind of undecided voter who, when forced to make the choice, will end up plumping for Yes.
It makes you wonder why there’s such a difference. Are women in the creative industries just more independent of mind, and therefore more likely to favour independence for Scotland?
people employed in the Oil and Gas sector are, probably, majority YES voters.
I only know one, who has posted here a few times as “Soapy Sam”. He’s a unionist because he doesn’t want more borders and more politicians. He also thinks he gets advantages to his UK passport, and feels uncertainty if that passport doesn’t exist.
To be honest I don’t understand him most of the time, though I do try. He says the world is heading for one world government, when quite clearly it isn’t, as the total number of independent countries keeps going up, and when he’s asked how that would be achieved he doesn’t seem to know. He just knows he’s opposed to one more border, whether it benefits Scotland or not.
I think he’s just an emotional unionist, which is something I find it very hard to get my head round.
Justin Currie is taking the mickey, surely?
Had to smile at young Colin McIntyre saying that the oil was supposed to run out ten years ago!
We may as well just let team GB squander the next 70 years’ worth while were at it 🙂
Jim Mitchell – “So where are these 500 questions then?”
I’ve had a sneaky peek at the paper. Here’s the first few.
1. What’s the currency going to be?
2. Yeah, but what’s the currency going to be?
3. Okay, but what’s the currency going to be?
4. How do you know that’s what the currency’s going to be?
5. Can you prove for certain that that’s what the currency will be?
6. Yeah, but how do you know for sure that’s what the currency will be?
7. Are you sure that’s what the currency is going to be?
8. Are we there yet?
9. Are those moi feet? (Father Ted reference)
10. If 1 + 2 is 3, then what colour is my granny’s cat?
etc etc ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
scottish-skier
BBC Scotlandshire has the explanation as to the numbers at the launch.
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
@scottishskier
Interesting. This morning I listened to Call K as was curious to hear how they’d handle UKIP’s organiser in Scotland being on.
A chap from one of the oil companies called in and gave him a hard time. Questioned him about EU/nonEu recruitment procedures’ – Mr UKIP, of course, didn’t have a scooby.
People seem to listen to this sector’s employees so perhaps more vocalising is the order of the day. OILIES for Independence.
@Mcart
We’ll see.
@dougd
On voting and gender it throws up more questions than answers …….. who knows, does anyone, really.
In the hope we secure a YES vote the analysis and breakdown will be very interesting …..age/class/gender/location/work etc.
Recently on a personal level I discovered someone I was sure was a NO is a loud and proud YES ……. on a work level someone I was sure would be a YES is a fearty NO, hopefully my reasoning had some impact.
Not straightforward at all.
Also, there are a lot of EU nationals working in Scotland in the oil industry (I love visiting TOTAL [France] in Aberdeen – their canteen is to die for).
Previously, a lot of them were slightly concerned about the EU situation so more tending to No. However, since Dave announced an in/out referendum which would see the UK leave, then Better Together started being xenophobic re ‘Foreigners = bad’, a lot of them are opting for Yes now.
UKIP can only compound this; its rise should ensure a majority yes from immigrants, both from the EU and elsewhere, to Scotland. That could add up to 2% to Yes just from EU nationals alone.
@scottishskier
Absolutely. It looks like the out of EU referendum legislation will be brought forward and of course talked about ad nauseum …..add to that the UKIP wanting to abolish the Scottish Parliament ……as we know voters in Scotland are reasonably happy with Holyrood compared to Westminster, all looking good.
Getting a Scottish national newspaper stating a week before the referendum that you would pay less for your petrol by voting Yes might help as well.
I’d put Justin Currie down as a possible Yes.
Just to annoy him.
G Campbell says: Just to annoy him.
LOL!
Scottish skier.
I have no idea, wasn’t at the event and I am not part of BT. I suspect that they have fallen guilty of issuing inflated attendance figures, as done by organisers of rallies, marches, gatherings and football matches on a regular basis. Silly, but hardly a capital offence, I can remember reading a massive amount of debate around the capacity around the Ross bandstand last year.
“Are you suggesting that the majority of people are too stupid to realise that they want independance?”
If I was suggesting that, that’s what I’d have said. But it isn’t what I said, so you figure it out.
If we are not too stupid, then those who are trying to deliver the message are failing? From my perspective, the debate is getting more muddled on both sides, rather than clearer.
“This ‘twinner’ says to me that some folk must think Independence is only a game”
I’m not sure I’d read that into it. It’s a very good thing people on opposing sides are getting together over dinners and drink and off Twitter. It’s what we should all be doing really.
Twitter, and social media generally, is a horrible forum for debate as it distills complex arguments, and opinions that are only one tiny part of anyone’s life into a sort of be-all-and-end-all. There are people I love in real life who I’d hate very quickly if I only knew them through social media, and no doubt people I love/hate from social media who I’d think differently of in real life.
If everyone in Scotland could take part in dinner and drink debates on independence with friends from both sides, we’d be getting somewhere far healthier. I hope sometime before next September we do get to that stage.
OTOH it does seem a bit odd that the same people who often take scolding, patronising tones against their own side for “arguing incorrectly” on social media are happy to have such dinners with people like Ian Smart.
Gfaetheblock
The message has not been released yet.
We have come to a junction in the road but only one road will give Scotland the opportunity to progress.
The other is a cul de sac with no turning areas.
Sitting on your arse at the junction is NOT an option.
In my travels I have kept my eyes open and seen how Scotland could be. I have also used the Internet to look up information to show that independence for a small nation of 5 million with above average resources is not only feasible it is desirable.
Have a long, hard think about the things you would like to see improve in Scotland and then answer honestly, what is the most likely scenario for this to happen? A Yes vote or a No vote?
G Campbell
After what Justin wrote I could easily see him being perverse enough to vote Yes. It would actually round that whole piece off. Which would make it 35% Yes 15% No and 50% undecided. If we could get that sort of movement in the next overall polls the No camp would go into Twitter melt down 🙂
Just need to win some of the undecideds over now.
@Stuart Black At 3:49pm
Vambo he say no steal from neighbour!
The ‘Independence’ Questions:
What is normal or what is abnormal?
What Holyrood can give, or what Whitehall & Westminster wants and takes without a by our leave?
The Home rule of, by and for all, or the Away rule of, by and for the few?
Our own self-governance, or our own cashback less deductions for the UK’s overlordship and overheads.
Owning our own democracy in our own land with our own state, or being owned by parties to the UK realm over others who want their country back too?
Bottom-up or top-down?
Citizen or subject?
Mutual and prudential or rip-off?
Interdependence or dependence?
Union as partnerships between equals, or as an unequal unitary State?
To have everyone to thank for saying Yes. And one to blame for saying No.
Holyrood or Whitehall & Westminster first and foremost to reflect our communities of families, friends and fellow folk so all are mutually in service to the greatest debt we’ll ever owe ourselves and each other: our society?
Laura says:
6 May, 2013 at 1:15 pm
As someone said recently, once you know the truth Yes is a solid vote.
And once you make that decision, nobody goes back. Which is why we will win in 2014 or very shortly thereafter. Are you an SDA supporter?
What is more interesting is why you started to look for answers, why we all did?
For me, it was the utter paucity of the ‘no’ arguments and the personal abuse that was meted out towards SNP folk by the media and unionist pols. I smelt sh*te. And as you said, once you start to look into it, the conclusion is clear.
Cath- I see your point but I don’t know one single unionist I could have dinner with! I returned to Scotland last year and made contact with my old friends and family and not one , amongost the 30-40 people I know are in the No camp. The friends and family are a wide spread of age, class and education. The only unionists I meet are in the pub and they are not firm unionists in the main just either not engaged with the issues, don’t care, hate politics or it’s too abstract at the moment to deal with. But to be honest couldn’t sit with dinner with Torrance and Hassan without needing to wind both of them up by asking ‘should the port be passed from the RIGHT or to the LEFT” or interupt conversations constantly with the refain of “nae swearing” . ‘Huad oan big man, it’s no worth it”. “won’t someone think of the comedians children” Hell would be dinner with these people 🙂
Is this five hundred questions thing a bit like Rumpelstiltskin? we manage to answer all five hundred questions right then they bugger off and leave to to run our country PROPERLY?
“Is this five hundred questions thing a bit like Rumpelstiltskin? we manage to answer all five hundred questions right then they bugger off and leave to to run our country PROPERLY?”
Nope.
“Many more questions already exist and as more of the big issues are debated more and more questions will arise.”
If we answer all these 500 questions, our prize will be more questions.
Has anybody got a copy of the 500 questions?
“Has anybody got a copy of the 500 questions?”
It’s linked in the piece. DOESN’T ANYONE CLICK ON THE ETC?
Oops
Hey, Stu, maybe the preceding words “and so far mythical” misled him just a little bit…..?
(And that’s the Herald article anyway – do they list the lot?)
“VOTE NO, GET NOTHING” is a simple, devastatingly powerful message that should be repeated and repeated until it finally sinks in. A large group of devomax supporters will be crucial to the referendum outcome, and this group needs to be convinced that the UK will never ever cede any more, meaningful power to Holyrood. If enough devomax supporters understand this, then we will win convincingly. The worry is that many of them might just be tempted to give the UK one more try and hope they come up with some of that elusive, promised jam. VOTE NO, GET NOTHING. Spread the word.