Five-alarm fire
Alert readers will be aware of the occasional service provided by this site whereby we help out time-pressed citizens by letting them know when they can safely stop reading an article in the Scottish media. This morning we noticed a tweet from Unionist/Tory commentator Alex Massie, drawing attention to a Scotsman piece he described as “a v important column on banks. Not ‘Scaremongering'”.
Despite the obvious we respect Massie’s views on a lot of subjects, so we had a look.
“Bill Jamieson: Beware independence blank cheque
Is there yet such a thing as a credible economic case for independence?”
Unfortunately, at that point we had to dash from the room in a panic, as every single SCAREMONGERING alarm in the building was doing its dinger at maximum volume.
Anyone who’s STILL casting doubt on whether there’s a credible economic case for independence at all – something repeatedly conceded by every senior figure in the No campaign – can’t possibly expect any reasonable person to bother reading any further. So we didn’t, and we suggest you don’t either.
Given yesterday’s calamitous sales figures, if we worked for Johnston Press we’d be a lot more worried about whether there was a credible economic case for the Scotsman. For the love of God, enough of this idiocy.
Given that banks across the UK already operate in three different legal jurisdictions (before we even consider the likes of the Channel Islands, or indeed Europe and the rest of the world), I’m baffled by the assumption that operations would grind to a halt on independence day.
I suppose the story here is the doublethink of tagging an article intended to cause FUD with ‘Not Scaremongering’.
The Scotsman seems to be running out of barrels to scrape.
If reason prevails it will soon be the Scotsman’s turn to be scraped up put in a barrel marked “Toxic” and disposed of.
Ah yes the Brian Quinn paper. Load of nonsense and he knows it, the total and utter unionist that he is. The wee scamp.
Meant to say the good prof has form in this regard. He is merely reiterating his paper from 2012 ‘Scottish Independence-Questions and Answers’. Not even original research. A fine example of gringe and negative outlook a ‘holy willie’ for our time.
Alex Massie is promoting this because it’s on his ThickScotland propaganda site in the laughably entitled “Today’s Thinking” section.
Given that this peculiar corner of the net is normally inhabited by Euan **** McColm and Dundee political legend Stuart Winton, suggesting that Scotland is uniquely incapable of running a banking system is oddly enough, a move in the direction of actual thinking.
Further thinking might lead to questions such as why anyone involved in the UK’s recent stellar record in the area of banking regulation should be regarded as having any credibility whatsoever.
Ah the same Brian Quinn that sits with Rt Hon Dr John Reid , Jim Murphy ,Alex Roy and countless other British unionists of a Saturday toe tapping to songs about getting Brits out of Ireland but hear hear to anything to keep the land of their birth firmly under British rule.
As, until recently, a Lloyds TSB customer I’m now just a TSB customer, I think. All my sort codes were Scottish bar a dead online one which I just closed down, that I was told could have proved a wee bit more problematic, having Scottish and English sort codes.
Obviously banks are facing different and changing regulation, who knows where it’s all headed. (Probably some people do, I haven’t a clue.)
And why anyone should believe any banker, regardless of status, who was around as we were heading for economic meltdown, I’ll never know.
I’m past that critical point when I give a hoot about scary Scotsman stories!
It is interesting that scaremongering unionists now have to qualify their scaremongering by claiming they are not scaremongering. Honesty, however, is not their strongest card. The scaremongering unionists have become victims of their own scaremongering.
Rev, were you planning to issue a detailed rebuttal of in a paper published by the David Hume Institute today from Prof Brian Quinn? Would you mind?
Repetitive nonsense! You know when they start going round in circles then the end is nigh. More than anything else it highlights the poverty of argument for union they have. Also it’s funny that Massie has to put ‘not scaremongering’ in is tweet to get people to read the article in the first place.
In an archive link in the last thread this Scotsman article regarding the inherent risks of Scottish banks appears on my screen with a Bank of Scotland advert! Money well spent BoS.
If Bank of Scotland has an internet media team they need to start setting out controls where their logo appears.
No offence intended but…… (Offence inevitably follows)
I’m not one to talk behind someone’s back but……(Cue extensive back stabbing)
This isn’t Scaremonger…… (oh look, scaremongering)
Given the plummeting sales figures, and the number cogent and coherent rebuttals their infomercials for BT receive, it may just be that they are too cerebrally challenged to see that they are wrong.
There is a credible economic and business case for the Scotsman. It requires someone at JP to ask one simple question:
Why does the Irish Times have a circulation which is 3 times bigger than the Scotsman’s?
Despite Rev’s warnings, I read the article. The argument used by Jamieson by interpretation, or by Quinn himself is inherently flawed.
If Scotland retains the pound, by which I mean GBP rather than a Scottish pound, all the dangerous banking stuff will remain in the City, in London. Therefore the UK rules still apply, therefore the BoE will not look upon Scottish banks any differently, as the only revenue going to Scotland would be from domestic branch held accounts which are already ring fenced and entirely safe.
“Anyone who’s STILL casting doubt on whether there’s a credible economic case for independence at all – something repeatedly conceded by every senior figure in the No campaign – can’t possibly expect any reasonable person to bother reading any further. So we didn’t, and we suggest you don’t either.”
Quite right. We need to start taking a firm stance on this, because for many people it’s the single biggest roadblock between supporting independence and not supporting it. So here’s a call to all unionists: if you want to be taken seriously, stop trying to perpetuate the myth that Scotland cannae afford to go it alone.
If there is indeed a “Positive Case For The Union”, it must be based on the premise that Scotland can exist as a viable country whether we’re independent or not. This is the absolute baseline for the debate, and from there we’re arguing about what makes us a more prosperous and fairer nation. To join the debate, you must acknowledge this is the baseline. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
the piece seems to be based on the idea that Scotland will keep the pound and also the bank of England as the central bank, is that really the plan? keeping the pound fine, but why keep a shared central bank after independence? and if that isn’t the plan then the article makes no sense at all!
There are many papers being published by think tanks, academic forums etc on various aspects of an Independent Scotland, like many this one points out potential problems that need some thought, that is important in this debate, but yet again we have someone cherry picking to suit their own agenda. This is the paper referred to if you want to read it.
link to davidhumeinstitute.com
In November 2012, Brian Quinn was reported as saying, “It is not “self- evident” that an independent Scotland would retain the UK’s AAA credit rating, which allows cheaper borrowing.”
Three months later the UK lost it’s AAA credit rating.
It is “self-evident” that Brian Quinn is not much of a forecaster.
Brian Quinn is peddling this nonsense in the Herald this morning. It is just a rehash of the paper he produced last year- nothing new to report. Scotland is still ‘too wee, too poor & too stupid’.
My opinion is that without Scotland using the pound after Independence the pound would collapse in value. Their scare stories about not being able to use the pound until we decide otherwise does make me laugh.
From the link @paularose posted, this paragraph, bluntly they clearly don’t know, might, maybe etc.
“As noted above, membership of a sterling currency area for Scotland is likely to be possible only if arrangements governing Scotland’s public finances were agreed in advance. What that might mean in hard numbers is pure speculation at this stage; but it is not easy to envisage an independent Scotland being allowed to run budget deficits or public debt ratios materially higher than those applying in the rUK. This does not mean that all room for manoeuvre or differences in the all areas of public finance would be lost. Rates of income tax, both company and personal, could presumably differ from the rUK, as well as the scope and rates of expenditure taxes. Even here, however, there could be limits arising from EU single market legislation (by which it is assumed an independent Scotland would be bound, either formally or effectively) and from any deal struck as part of a separation treaty.”
Would Professor Quinn like to explain why the American government bailed out Barclays to the tune of $863 billion! Surely it was only the Scottish banks that were failing and needed help, not English ones that had to go to a foreign country for bailout money. Unionists like to hide the fact that Barclays bailout dwarfed the Scottish banks by a considerable margin. But of course the Unionists only want to beat the Scots with the bank bailout stick in a game of let’s pretend.
Britain made a good job of running the banks as I recall….
Can you believe this?
“Maggie Mitchell, chief executive of Dunfermline Delivers, said: “Yes Scotland was unaware that the area outside the Glen Gates was booked by the Bruce Festival through the appropriate Fife Council channels. This is where the confusion arose.
“Fortunately, the exhibitor, whose allocated space the campaigners were occupying, didn’t turn up so we were able to accommodate them, after all.”
link to thecourier.co.uk
That’s it for me – no more Herald subscription. The rehashed old nonsense today following the rubbish of the last 10 day has done it. Get out, don’t go there to comment. The only way to get decent reporting from these people is to hit their pockets!
Bill McLean says:
That’s it for me – no more Herald subscription. The rehashed old nonsense today following the rubbish of the last 10 day has done it. Get out, don’t go there to comment. The only way to get decent reporting from these people is to hit their pockets!
Comments at the Herald are heavily moderated, people should not be supporting censorship thru paying a subscription.
O’hells bells, I am so fed up ( like all of us are !) of all this shit poured down on us.
However, it is all they can do, as we can beat their arguments any day, they have not put ANY positive case for the Union as , ah well, they have none. So the scare stories are all they have and even those have been taken apart, they have nothing to offer us that is remotely better than our own Independence.
Isn’t so surprising that they want to retain a small country of just 5+ million people under their yoke, when they have 12 times that number at home!
What happened to the reported calls for England just to let us go as the population don’t give a hoot ! So why the fortune being put into keeping us?
Well, I guess it is in Westminster’s self interest just as it is for the Ermine brigade, where ever they come from. The gravy bowl has a hole in it that will not easily be plugged.
They are all crapping themselves that Scotland does it’s own way, but do not be fooled, it is not for the love of Scots, who they ridicule each and every day, it is simply for our assets and our soldiers, when the need arises.
Let us get shot of all them. Roll on 2014!
Is it just me, or does anyone else also think that the unionist Printed Press just isn’t trying anymore?
Same old, same old, and they expect us not to notice.
Are they devoid of rational, independent analysis and thought?
That was a rhetorical question.
I’m off to chew on some bamboo, rather than my paw claws.
“a v important column on banks. Not ‘Scaremongering’”.
So, an admission that any piece he has recommended before has been?
@Sneddon
“A fine example of gringe and negative outlook a ‘holy willie’ for our time.”
So, its official then, there would be no more Christmases in an independent Scotland.
@Doug Daniel
The problem with your suggestion is that awkward silence might be the only remaining option for BT, given the wealth of positive arguments at their disposal.
Otherwise they might be forced to extemporise à la Darling and find themselves unable to think of anything other than what we’ve achieved with “financial services” and “food and drink”.
The positive case for the union: bankruptcy, obesity and alcoholism.
I can see why you want them to bring it on. I can also see why they’re not so keen.
Rod Mac says:
Sneddon says:
Ah the same Brian Quinn that sits with Rt Hon Dr John Reid , Jim Murphy ,Alex Roy and countless other British unionists of a Saturday toe tapping to songs about getting Brits out of Ireland but hear hear to anything to keep the land of their birth firmly under British rule.
Don’t forget the new Baron Livingston of Parkhead and Non- Lord Brian Wilson of Dunoon (never got the call you see)
The congregation of such Unionist views at Celtic Park, has also puzzled me for many years surely that was the domain of Castle Grey Skull on the other side of the city ???
Perhaps this was why they were formerly known as the ‘Old Firm’ before the demise of Glasgow’s other club
“The congregation of such Unionist views at Celtic Park, has also puzzled me for many years surely that was the domain of Castle Grey Skull on the other side of the city ???”
Tangentially, I was out last night so I thought I’d have a wee look on YouTube to see if there were any highlights of the Celtic game. I had no luck, but did happen to click on this crowd-shot footage of the end of the game, in which the first words heard are “…get your Union Jack up your arse!”
I have no idea which was the Union Jack in question.
The bit I like is right at the end where it says MORE STORIES. Having had a good belly laugh at Bill’s piece I was looking for more but archive.is doesn’t link. Would the Rev. consider making an anthology of scary stories as a book for Christmas like the cartoons out of the papers do. The Best of Better Together 2013 to go alongside The Jax Collection or Matt’s Year.
Dcanmore says:
29 August, 2013 at 10:40 am
Repetitive nonsense! You know when they start going round in circles then the end is nigh.
Circling the plughole.
Why did the banks only become Scottish – after they failed?
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Re Quinn, Celtic and Jamieson, over on twitter Bill J says ……
‘Quinn’s a Scot with BoE experience and insight. An ex Celtic Chmn can hardly be dismissed as English establishment’
What ruddy planet do these people inhabit, sheesh!
@Gillie…
I finished with The Herald as soon as my perfectly reasonable (but pro Indy) comments no longer passed moderation.
Chic- Ahem sometimes my spelling can be erratic but you raise a good point can Alec Salmond guarantee Santa will still visit an indepedent Scotland we demand answers
As a Birmingham Midshires (part of BoS Group) fixed term account holder I contacted Bank of Scotland for assurance that my funds are safe. I attached a screen shot of the Scotsman article (raising questions over the running of our banks) with their advertisement beside it.
BoS seem willing to fund a newspaper that runs Scotland down and questions its ability to run and regulate its own financial services.
“As a Birmingham Midshires (part of BoS Group) fixed term account holder I contacted Bank of Scotland for assurance that my funds are safe. I attached a screen shot of the Scotsman article (raising questions over the running of our banks) with their advertisement beside it.
BoS seem willing to fund a newspaper that runs Scotland down and questions its ability to run and regulate its own financial services.”
Now THAT’s some creative campaigning
Albalha says:
29 August, 2013 at 10:37 am
As, until recently, a Lloyds TSB customer I’m now just a TSB customer, I think. All my sort codes were Scottish bar a dead online one which I just closed down, that I was told could have proved a wee bit more problematic, having Scottish and English sort codes.Obviously banks are facing different and changing regulation, who knows where it’s all headed. (Probably some people do, I haven’t a clue.)And why anyone should believe any banker, regardless of status, who was around as we were heading for economic meltdown, I’ll never know.
Interesting Point Albalha!
I had a nightmare when the transfer of branches and accounts was meant to take place with the RBS/Santander branch split. I was told they had to be sure the sort codes were correctly dealt with by Location (Scotland/England)
Then I tried to get an ISA advertised under HBOS banner, only to be told in the BOS branch that they we only available over the counter at Halifax branches, nearest one to Aberdeen being Carlisle. My local branch having no access to products advertised as HBOS. BOS rate locally for same product 1.2% less p/a.
I think the banks have already started planning to divide!
‘An ex-Celtic chairman can hardly be dismissed as English establishment’
And to think all these years I’ve been dismissing John Reid as English establishment. My bad.
Re Mr Massie This is not a scaremongering story….
Also how every Unionist begins with “I am a proud Scot…” then trashes this country of which they are so proud.
Or the British political Parties that feel the need to use the Scotland brand instead of the British brand.
Scottish Labour , Scottish Conservative etc….
All smoke and mirrors ,always deceit and lies, when will ALL of the Scottish voters open their eyes to this dishonesty?
@westie7
Well quite, somebody, somewhere no doubt has seen the spreadsheet, who gets the CD’s after the break up and all that.
@trainingday
Forgive me but it’s just shite. In their heads the debate seems to be that if they have a ‘real Scot’ to sell their narrative then voters will buy it. Thankfully it is not about place of birth, frankly if it was restricted to that we’d have no bloody chance of a YES. I’ve met and witnessed John Reid at close quarters, nuff said.
It’s playground level nonsense, there really is no hope for people with that mindset, round and round it goes.
@RevStu
Re Union flag and Parkhead, of course doesn’t mean the young lady in question is a YES.
@les wilson
So why the fortune being put into keeping us? … They are all crapping themselves that Scotland does it’s own way…
Isn’t that the nub of it? That the fear in Project Fear is actually the UK’s fear of losing Scotland, thus the nation of the Empire where the sun never set is no more? I’m sure that there’s lot of scribbling on the back of fag packets about how to cope with the loss of Scotland’s assets and the like, but the real fear is the loss of world status and prestige, and especially the loss of the nukes and the coveted, precious permanent seat at the UN Security Council. Otherwise, really, why bother….?
Albaha – I’m also a Lloyds TSB customer who will soon be reverting back to the good old TSB, and I’m just wondering if it’s a coincidence that it’s the Scottish banks that Lloyds have decided to split off into a separate bank. Is it in preparation for Scotland becoming independent, I wonder?
An article in the Sunday Times a week past (a family member’s copy, not mine I wouldn’t purchase it) ponders on concerns that a rUK without Scotland “would be much diminished”.
Quinn’s article is tiresome negativity.i wonder if Quinn reads the Times?
Quinn, Reid, Murphy,Roy,Wilson – what a line-up. The Famous Five. As demurely expressed by the young lady in your clip,they can stick their lies,negativity, and their flags – of convenience, – up their arses.
Rod Mac
Also how every Unionist begins with “I am a proud Scot…” then trashes this country of which they are so proud.
Here is another @7.11 at the very end link to youtu.be
The clip is nothing ,the reality is Parkhead is the bastion of British unionism .not ibrox as some would have us believe.
As i have stated many times there are more British unionist Mps .MSPs . councillors of a Saturday sitting in the Breezeblock Stadium toe tapping to Irish rebel songs about dissing the Brits.
After the final whistle you have a stadium resorting back to their British supporting status.
The Celtic fans are the ones that mystify me more than any others in Scotland.
they of all fans you would believe woyuld be 100% Independence men and women.
Yet the truth is they support the most British unionist party in Scotland ,Labour.
There is no need to pay a subscription for the herald, just delete the HERALD cookies when the free trial expires and a new free trial is possible.
As someone living in Scotland, should I be worried about bankinig with a Spanish Bank? Are they able to cope currently with Spain and Britania?
(PS I know they (Santander) are ***** useless at present but could they actually become worse after independence?)
I’m an RBS account holder, but in one of the English branches – long story. I also had MAJOR problems with the Santander crapolo. In fact if it had gone through I was going to transfer to an Edinburgh branch. Although I’ve been there for 30 odd years, I might just move before THE day next year. Just as a precaution, you understand.
Regarding banks, I commend the post by AnotherLondonDividend on the previous thread. The fact that the Royal Bank Group were bailed out to a substantially greater extent by the US Federal Reserve than the Bank of England has had little exposure in this country. I suspect the reasons for this are City of London pride and also that it does not fit with the narrative of ‘the man who saved the world’.
Put simply, large banks generally expand by opening overseas subsidiaries. These subsidiaries are regulated by the regulator of the state in which they do business. This has a number of benefits – they are not subject to multiple regulators (other than the home state regulator keeping an eye on the group as a whole) and they have access to the Central Bank benefits and guarantee scheme on a similar basis to other banks in that state. From a public policy perspective that (overseas) state has every interest in ensuring they do not fail, as it impacts on that states reputation and the customers situated there.
By way of interest, in the case of the Icesave collapse where the Icelandic bank was not trading as a subsidiary (and hence had no recourse to the Bank of England) and where some may recall Brown and Darling invoked anti-terror laws against Iceland, Iceland was completely absolved by the EFTA court earlier this year. Details are in the FT editorial at link to archive.is .
I have a Scottish and an English-based Lloyds TSB accounts. I’ve been notified that the Scottish one will revert back to the TSB. But then I’ve been with the TSB since 1979 and I’ve always called it such even since the merger
Sometimes I still call WH Smiths, John Menzies
In my opinion there can only be one reason for the current actions of the Hootsmon. It is clear to me that after the demise of the Beano a void has been left in the comic section of print media. From the current behaviour of the Hootsmon it is evident that they are determined to claim the space vacated by the Beano for themselves. No other reasonable excuse can possibly explain their current behaviour.
A new one on me today
“Indy will cost too much in rebranding and letterheads”
“A new one on me today
“Indy will cost too much in rebranding and letterheads””
Where’s that from?
“Indy will cost too much in rebranding and letterheads”
My company has ‘Scotland, UK’ in its letterhead. Easy enough to remove the last bit (we might not even need to as the UK is not going anywhere under independence). It’s oil and gas so Scotland is known globally as Scotland anyway. Nobody says e.g. ‘Oh yes, I’m in Britain next week to visit Total Nuggets’.
Rod Mac – Not all Celtic fans support Labour. No Sirree.
Loving the breezeblock patter, oh for a marble staircase of dubious ownership.
Love the picture by the way,
Westminster Trolls indeed!
Is that not Foulkes on the foreground and Mickey Forsyth with the Net behind. Lol
Thomas William Dunlop..Foulkes….im sure i read the other day he tried to introduce a Bill against Space Invaders in early 70’s…no quite Trolls but close enough!
Desimond says:
Rod Mac – Not all Celtic fans support Labour. No Sirree.
Desimond : Im sure your right, but from experience most of my wider family are Celtic fans and all west of Scotland ‘British Labour’ through & through (cant trust the Nats). Totally beyond me how they can square that circle ???? Believe me I have tried … all go on and on about SNP ok for devo but we’re too wee and need to be British. Big haters of Salmond for all the lies about Labour for Indy & what he has done to Labour in general.
Any ideas of persuasion. Ive tried just about everything. Scotland fan so don’t really get the hate / hate old firm rubbish. It’s just so disappointing that they can’t be coerced over to what I would see as the natural choice in terms of values and politics.
One problem in relation to the newspaper coverage is that this might all seem benign in way, but in most other democratic societies the press will service a spectrum of opinion and journalistic coverage varying between each publication.
Unfortunately with a year to go before this momentous vote that puts this country at a distinct disadvantage with only the ‘Negative arguments’ being represented in the fullest terms. From my own experiences this is not case in Catalonia where the press readily represents both opposing positions
All the public here are presented with on a regular basis is this mince from the likes of Jamieson and Quinn – completely suggestive & biased in outlook, followed by exclusives from the BBC / STV where its discussed at more length and all presented as fact based.
Despite this, absolutely nothing still is being presented as a future vision of just how it all will be ‘Better’ by Negative Scotland, which up until this point has not come under any serious scrutiny other than from pro YES websites.
I too am a Lloyds TSB customer going onto TSB only banking. I read a bit about it as I was with Lloyds Bank before the merge with TSB – EU legislation requires more competition with banks and more customer service based, ie High Street banking. When Lloyds TSB takeover of the Co-operative Bank collapsed they decicided on the Lloyds TSB split although if the takeover had been successful the TSB side of the banks would have become Co-operative instead. Therefore we would all have become The Co-operative Bank customers.
This is just from memory as I read it a while ago…
@revstu
froma random bloke I was talking to on the train. he’d been discussing Indy with a guy at his job, and the guy came out with this one. I think it was part of a larger “how much would the process of separating institutions cost?” as if a one of cost was a valid economic reason for not investing in your future