Equal Partnership For Dummies
Posted on
July 01, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
How the UK’s constitution now works, in brief:
– English votes for English laws
– English votes for Scottish laws
– No Scottish votes for English laws
Any questions?
“ME Sir” – Why the hell are we still her & accepting this crap?
They won. To the UKOK victor, the spoils.
I hope this is a good enough excuse for our FM to call for the next Scottish Referendum. 🙂
Aye. When do we hold the second referendum?
Questions, you say?
Typical whinging Jocks, expecting not just to have some kind of democratic input but also to have their concerns listened to and addressed!
Yours &c,
Disgruntled in Tunbridge Wells.
And no matter who the majority of you Jocks vote for, we’ll just ignore them because we don’t need you to get into government. So there!
“Any questions?”
Naw.
Just in case anyone was in any doubt!
I thought that was how it always worked.
Any chance of some journalists asking pertinent questions ?
Hard hitting interviews anywhere?
Herald? Record? Scotsman? P&J ? Courier? Anyone?
What a feckless bunch – or should that be fecking?
Isn’t it wonderful living in an English democratic society!
Where would we be without them?
Whenever you have a problem you can refer to the british constitution for guidance, although Mr gooogle can’t seem to find it…
How can this be fair, equitable or legal to the one countries MP’s are treated differently.
It would have to be-
-English votes for English laws
-English votes for Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland laws
-No Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland votes for English laws
But Scotland has its own legal system. So how will law changes or new laws be adopted into Scots law ?
Nope, no questions whatsoever.
Democratic deficit not only in place, but about to be reinforced. Pledges forgotten and Smith a farce.
Crystal clear.
Very succinct summary of the actuality. As Ghandi once said, Western democracy would be a good idea.
An outsider looking in and analysing WM’s behaviour might conclude that they are trying awfully hard to get us to leave!
Try explaining this to a Martian who suddenly lands and asks what our governance arrangements are.
They’d take off quickly and resolve never again to come to such a weird place.
Donald MacKenzie says:
Try explaining this to a Martian who suddenly lands and asks what our governance arrangements are.
They’d take off quickly and resolve never again to come to such a weird place.
Never liked these Martians onyway. Worse than the United Klingdomites.
I would like someone to challenge Gordon Brown on his promises before #indyref and what has happened since. He must of known that this is how it would have panned out.
English colony – Trainspotting quote etc
Yes a few questions Rev 😉
Can we take them to the international courts if they do this?
And just what does the EU think about one of its members behavior towards the democratic rights of its Scottish citizens?
And most importantly what will Labour do about it,will they blunder head first into another tory trap set for them or will they be willing accomplices to this disgusting piece of legislation?
In fact i think the SNP should use a little reverse psychology on this and say they will vote yes to it as it suits their agenda for independence and see what the onions do just for a laugh 🙂
And they laughed and cheered as they did it.
So the Tories/Westminster are going to play hardball. Here we go!
Meanwhile though over on Radio 4 womens hour listeners think Nicola is the most influential Woman in Britian.
Unfortunately westminster doesn’t agree.
The ‘NO’ voters were sold a pig in a poke…with no pig inside! Are they squealing yet?
Well, whatever scummy new laws this scumbag government pass now I’ll refuse to conform as they have lost legitimacy for Scots. For anyone who doubts that 1707 was anything other than an Anschluss, I hope it’s now abundantly clear.
I reject the UK and the fascist dogma that drives it.
“Any questions?” YES WHEN IS INDYREF2 ?
@ X Sticks Ah think that english constitution is mentioned in the Mankie Gartoot,but there,s that many copies they dont know whitch one is rite.
Always quoted but never produced.
Look, Scotland–it’s simple. Very simple. This is our club. You voted to remain a member of our club. But understand this–you do not get to set the terms of membership to our club. When you try any that nonsense we will shoot you down. That we bribed you with promises to get you to stay when you threatened to leave the club and didn’t follow up on those promises, is all your own damn fault for being so gullible and stupid in believing those promises.
Don’t ever forget, Scotland–we make the rules, not you. When we make a promise we can change the rule to break a promise.
Welcome to the Union. You’re going nowhere, Scotland. We own you.
@Chitterinlicht
Good luck with that as Gordy has landed in the US somewhere. He had the plans all set some time ago having enrolled the kids in a school.
Hope the police have his address when the CSA enquiries look for some answers regarding who knew what and when.
Rule Britannia, Britannia waives the rules.
As Mundell keeps saying “I will agree to nothing that will hurt the Scottish people.” Yeah right!
It would make a great billboard though. Strategically placed throughout Scotland and signed FCUK U
As I said over two weeks ago Greece deadline date, if that date doesent suit you,s we have other dates,
link to youtube.com
New date 20th July.
Cmon the Greeks.
why indeed are we still part of the WM union/english parliament?
truth is always calling something what it actually is.
how can meritorious argument win under such circumstance?
it’s banter, cut and thrust of uk politics, heat and fire of kitchen, when they say, abuse when we say.
Yep, I have a question. If 56 is not enough, what is the answer?
An English party, the “Northern League afiliated with the SNP”?
Chitterinlicht says:
“I would like someone to challenge Gordon Brown on his promises”
Indeed. That’s what you expect to happen in a normal democracy where an independent media held policians to account … nae chance …. evidence, if it were needed, that Scotland has neither!
O/T Nicola Sturgeon tops BBC Radio 4s Womans Hour Power List
link to bbc.co.uk
Everybody’s campaigning for independence these days. What’s not to like?
Some of their own politicians are telling them that if they go ahead with ‘EVEL’ it’ll bring about an end to the Union. I hope they’re right. Let them get on with it.
I’m also hoping that having 56 SNP MPs at Westminster may re-educate some rUK individuals who have been brainwashed by Westminster and the Media in relation to many facts such as welfare and the economy: and also witness the Scots very different attitude towards the poor and vulnerable.
I’m also wondering if it’ll dawn on some that we Scots are living in a dictatorship with a ruling party that we didn’t vote for (AGAIN) that has the power to over-rule every proposition put to them.
They’ve got the bl**dy brass neck to say that ‘we’ll have the most devolved Parliament in the World’. Someone should ask Mundell to give some examples to back up his / their claim.
@ galamcennalath
As an outsider looking in I can confirm that it looks very much as if they want you out.
On the other hand it seems the Tories are voting a/ because they can and b/ because deep in their hearts they consider you a fleet of tractors.
As for Labour, their only motivation is spite. No use trying to find anything nobler – spite and revenge are their only drives. Or so it seems.
The question was “What happens if we vote No?”
Now we have the (predictable) answer.
And that, ladies & gentlemen, is the scam that has been brewing for many hundreds of years.
The Establishment has almost now achieved its long term aim of having England as lords and masters over all Britain. I expect to see them now attempt to remove all independence from the Isle of Man and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey.
Which only leaves our English masters with two wee, almost insignificant, problems : –
The independent Republic of Ireland and the insurgent Scots who seem set, as usual, upon rebelling against their rightful English Masters in the de facto Parliament of England at Westminster.
All underlings should just remember their proper place in the scheme of things and defer to their masters in the de facto parliament of England in the English parliament at Westminster.
Aye! Richt!
Wheres Gordon the great & Captain Darling ?
What happened to Home Rule ; as near to Federalism as is possible ?
Is this Pooling & Sharing or is it ‘The Best of both worlds’ ??
Can anybody pretend it would have been any different under the Red Tories ?
This is all part of Scotland’s typical procrastination towards a very Separate State which will eventually happen.
When will the citizens of Scotland finally end others meddling in our ‘Sovereign’ affairs.
We ‘The Scots’ only have ourselves to blames for this treatment.
Lets get out of this political construct arrangement – next time once and for all !!
We are not an equal partner and here is the evidence.
If they want EVEL then they can set up an English parliament not just take over the UK parliament. I’m sure they’ll find a suitable building for it too, perhaps a bit further north!
I would love for the SNP to recall our MSPs, recall Holyrood and have a vote on this affront to democracy.
However, the Scotland Bill is only at the committee stage in the HoC. It still needs to go through the Report stage and a Third reading before it then goes through 5 farcical stages in the Un-elected House of Lordies before getting to final amendments and Assent. This sad joke will keep running until the end of the year.
In theory (- the one about the moon being made of green cheese) at any of the next stages we could (pigs will fly to the moon) get the bill amended to get what was promised(?). So we cannot expect SNP action on this until the bill is a dead duck (or pig poisoned by green cheese).
My heart goes out to our dignified and hard working 56 who are taking it on the chin whilst showing up the the clowns surrounding them.
@ Nana Smith says at 10:53 am ”Good luck with that as Gordy has landed in the US somewhere. He had the plans all set some time ago having enrolled the kids in a school. Hope the police have his address when the CSA enquiries look for some answers regarding who knew what and when.”
Is that right enough Nana? Mr Brown has left Scotland for the US? Well that should help get us another few votes.
Better Together front men, Brown and Darling, lying through their teeth to the Scots with the prior knowledge that they were going to do a runner after sticking the boot in.
I’m just waiting to hear what Jim Murphy is going to do next. It wouldn’t surprise me if he made his way to the US too: to visit the pals that he made in the lead up to the Referendum, as per Wikileaks.
Aye, huvnae heard a peep oot o the nawbags aboot this travesty of democracy.
Bring it on………
Another Step Closer To Independence.
EVEL—- No Scots allowed. All matters considered English will be voted on by English MP’S .They of course decide what is English only and if the Smith Commission is an example then we know what to expect.
Scotland Bill—-Scots allowed but only in the minority.No amendments allowed.
Scotland given a Governor General in the form of Mundell armed with veto over Scotland.
They think the grip tightens.They only strangle themselves.Never have I felt as strongly that I am a colonist in my OWN country.
@Alastair says: 1 July, 2015 at 10:12 am:
” … But Scotland has its own legal system. So how will law changes or new laws be adopted into Scots law?”
Have you been sleeping at the back of the class again, Alastair?
That little problem has already been dealt with by the creation of: –
“The New UK Supreme Court”
Keep the heid, folks!
Let them have their EVEL – it will serve us well by hastening the end of the union. When the next referendum comes, how can the BT mob now turn round and say “family of nations”, “equal partners”, “punch above our weight”, all that guff etc again? How can they say “devo max”, “near home rule” etc etc. And with their main barrier to independence, the red tory line,now breached, who is going to front the NO campaign? Indy ref2 campaign, when it comes will probably begin at near parity (50:50), no red tory credibility, and a few painful years of the blue tories lording it over us (guffaw, guffaw, hear, hear). Under these circumstances, I know which side I would put my money on.
However, at this stage, we need to be patient and keep calm. Certain things still have to be worked out. Indyref2 will come sooner than expected, but there is still work to do in the meantime. IMO, the red tory MSPs and councillors have to be reduced significantly in number, so that they are no longer an effective force in Scotland. Remember, if it was not for the Labour Party, we would already be independent. Think of it not so much as bayoneting, as pest control (or pandafication). The red tories are down but not out. Lets’ keep the pressure on.
EVEL…..English Votes for Every Law!
James Forrest sums it up very well today, over on comment isn’t free.
“no Scottish votes for English laws”
but they will still be using Scottish resources and taxation. The phrase “No taxation without representation” springs to mind. We are a gone people (see first half of link to youtube.com).
@Petra
Sure I’m only repeating what I’ve been told with regards to Brown. Would it really come as any great surprise to anyone on here.
At the end of the day the man was a tory and will be very happy for Scotland to be ruled by the tories. Did he not say as much before the indy vote.
[…] How the UK’s constitution now works, in brief:- English votes for English laws- English votes for Scottish laws- No Scottish votes for English lawsAny questions? […]
Meant to put this on here but not on the lastpost
Apart from exposing unionist pre referendum lies I can see little point in begging for some devolved powers when we can take the lot and this should become the preferred position in the not to distant future.
Is anyone really that surprised?
@handclapping says: 1 July, 2015 at 11:00 am:
“Yep, I have a question. If 56 is not enough, what is the answer?
An English party, the “Northern League afiliated with the SNP”?
Are you mad? You are proposing that as we cannot outvote them we should join them –
But! But! But!
The whole object of the exercise is to part from them.
Put it this way – we do not want to become part of England but parts of England are very welcome to come and join us as Scotland. Historically Scotland’s borders once reached as far south as Teeside.
Most of the press is not even making a pretence at providing balance any more.
I am none the worse for abandoning the Herald . The “oldest newspaper in the world” is a shameful unionist rag now and we must all now keep buying the National to allow it the confidence to expand and get better.
Oh and according to the national davie has some ideas on how to stop extremists. Where do you think this is heading.
Control freakery Westminster style.
David Cameron backs new laws to target extremist ideas, speeches and thoughts
Glorious weather folks, take the day off.
I’m not surprised. Scotland is not a country it is a region, arguably just another English region, that is what the No voters confirmed last year and that is the message the Tories (and all the other Unionists) have taken on board. They can do what they like and they are. The Irish called us bottlers and they are right, so sad.
So the SNP now have to put something of substance in the manifesto for the 2016 Holyrood election. I favour a mandate to negotiate for FFA if elected. No doubt the Unionist shall reject this so then onto IndyRef2.
Hi Stu.,
Excellent article thankyou.
In just 16 words you have elegantly and eloquently summed up the entire case for a second referendum on Independence for Scotland.
Is there any way you can produce those words on A2 Banners, Bumper Stickers, Demo Boards etc. With perhaps the modest addition of a few more words…
——————————–
English Votes For English Laws,
English Votes For Scottish Laws
No Scottish Votes For English Laws
No Scottish Votes For British Parliament Laws
Time For Scotland To Leave British Parliament?
Time For A Fair Scottish Independence Referendum.
——————————–
@ Dave McEwan Hill
Totally agree about the guff that is the Herald (apart from 1 or 2 writers) & National needs to expand into everyone’s regular daily tabloid in Scotland.
Political focus is fine but; too many have said to me that’s all it is and they miss the everyday blurb that’s included in the other Redhead paper with a Unionist political line.
Some feel alienated by the full on politics of the National perhaps a mix with the excellent magazine IScot issues ??
Amen to that Luigi!
Way to early for any referendum.
Let’s crush these Unionist lickspittles up here first at the next Scottish Elections. Lets hammer home the need to vote Green or Scottish Socialist or anything else in the list votes to keep them out.
Way to early for any referendum.
loads of questions need answering (and lots of polls) before we move on this.
Well, I can’t say that I’m surprised how things have turned out.
There is only one option left and that is to go for independence as fast as possible – whether it’s done by UDI or via a second refernemdum, the mechanics don’t matter but speed does. I don’t want ten more years of Tory rule.
Time to be open, vocal and clear.
Let’s send a message to our MPs, our colleagues and friends to push for independence now.
Perhaps we could start here;
link to heraldscotland.com
I know this is a Tommy Sheridan thing but it’s a start. What do you think?
@call me dave says
“The ‘NO’ voters were sold a pig in a poke…with no pig inside! Are they squealing yet?”
Well the ones that thought they would be getting the “best of both worlds” and “devo max, near federalism” are fair beeling. However the “proud Scot buts” whose primary allegiance is to the UK really don’t give a toss. I guess we’ll soon find out what the proportions are in each camp.
When are we going to hear from Lord Smith about his nice comfy agreement being torn to pieces by the Tories?
Stand up for Scotland Lord Smith and you will be held in high regard by everyone except the Tories. Keep quiet and you will never be forgiven.
I am sure the happiest people at this appalling gerrymandering will be Nicola, Alex and Angus. They know we have to go through the “Suck it up, Sweaties!” stage and see our 56 being punch-bags for the foreseeable future so that the Soft Noes finally get it. This won’t come from perusing MSM but from our gently reminding them at every opportunity of what they were promised in the September Unionist panic.
EVEL takes a sledgehammer to the union and makes our argument for us.
Not long to go now.
@AndyH says: 1 July, 2015 at 12:04 pm:
” … Let’s crush these Unionist lickspittles up here first at the next Scottish Elections. Lets hammer home the need to vote Green or Scottish Socialist or anything else in the list votes to keep them out.”
It will be apparent to the EU, and indeed to the whole World, that a Scotland with 56 independence MPs and a big majority of independence MSPs and MEPs is being denied the will of the sovereign people of Scotland. The present Scottish government should now be impressing upon the EU Parliament that the independent Scottish Legal system says that the Scottish people, not the Westminster parliament, are sovereign. Thus preparing the ground for Scottish Independence.
Nope, no questions, Rev.
Everything predicted to happen on here has happened.
But do those who voted No care? I hear little anecdotal evidence that they do. Most I have engaged with in conversation think they did the right thing, and justify their actions by recapitulating another scare story about taxation, the NHS etc., despite what the evidence of their own senses should be telling them, and despite the scare stories having been debunked ad nauseam.
I hope to God I am wrong and they do care.
Okay–here is a theoretical question. (I know this would never happen in practice).
Imagine in Scottish Election 2016 every single voter in Scotland voted SNP in the constituency vote and ALSO for the SNP in the list vote. This is to say that no one in Scotland in SE2016 votes for any other party in any of the votes.
What would happen?
Simple and straight to the point. Nicely crafted, Stuart.
However, I must admit, and I’m beginning to see this creep in again, and again, and again over Facebook and even here. To a larger extent, the call for Referendum 2; the lesser extent, the calls for UDI.
Guys, any calls for Referendum 2, let alone ‘UDI’ at this stage is not only pointless, but it is also a game killer. It’s like beginning chess by having your Queen attack the opposing King with your first couple of moves. You do that; you lose …and then you start wondering how you lost!
Nicola, Alex, Angus …and probably everyone here knows that calling for Referendum 2, let alone the idiotic cries of ‘UDI’ are not going to happen just like that. The game plan as far as I can see it, is to let the Tories and Westminster cut loose …and cut loose like never before.
We need them to deny us extra powers.
We need them to state that the Parliament is not permanent.
We need them to bad mouth Scotland in the papers.
We need them to force us to pay for their boys toys such as London Upgrades, HS2, Trident, etc.
We need them to provoke Europe and threaten to drag us out.
We need them to implement their cuts in full.
We need them to try and implement Fracking.
This is just a list of the top off my head.
We are not going to win the 50% of ‘No’s on the broken ‘Vow’, nor on the basis that Holyrood isn’t permanent.
Simply put, we need Scotland to feel the absolute pain of Westminster. We need them to do everything. You have a 2nd Referendum now, and Westminster will eat us alive. It will be a repeat of the last 2 weeks of the last Referendum as in ‘Yeah, we’re winning as we are now around 51-53%’. Westminster at this stage will just do what they did in that last 2weeks and wallop us back down to 45%. Lose the next one. Game over for a very long time.
To win then ext one, we need the pain and fear factor. We need people to really be suffering the cuts, and we need them to be living in fear at the possible thought of losing their jobs, rights, security, savings, etc if we are pulled from the EU.
Simply crying out for ‘Referendum 2’ is going to achieve nothing at this stage. This is Chess. At the moment, we have opened up with a couple simple moves by moving a pawn and a knight. We keep our best moves for later on in the game when the game will suddenly get a tad interesting.
Patience.
Nana Smith, Glorious weather folks, take the day off.
Same soft white hands that robbed us all before and beyond the last City crash will never take a day off.
All their media shills, BBC placemen, red Tory Crash Gordon and Lord Flipper Darlingesque crew will never stop for one moment. One Tory stuffed shirt survived somehow May 7. Their last ever red Tory lied and smeared to hold on, in Morningside! Their last ever LibDem Carmichael, joyfully smeared Scotland’s First Minister then defrauded the electorate of Orkney and Shetland with vicious calculated cunning.
But Scottish democracy will be crushed, her natural resources continue to be looted, her beautiful lands destroyed for a fast buck, Scots taxes pumped into England’s booming infrastructure, Argyle will be their private nuclear arms dump, Scots will continue to leave for America, Canada, Australia, England, slave wages make you strong, dignity of work don’t you know, the worst off bums and scroungers can jolly well pull their socks up, or feed at soup kitchens and food banks, what’s new. You’re alright jack.
But Scotland’s not a colony though. Never that. We’re bettertogether. It must be true. Jacky Bird sez so. UKOK.
Why am I not surprised by the behaviour we are witnessing
from the Tories.
Because I have been throught this before in the 1978/9 referendum.
where promises were made to the people of Scotland and when the unionists got the result they wanted, devolution was dropped like a hot potato.
So I never believed a word from any of the unionists this time about the Scottish Parliament being given additional powers that would make it the most powerful devolved parliament anywhere in the World.
The Scottish Parliament was never going to given substantial powers of any kind, as it would pose a threat to the authority andsoverignty to Westminster.
And as for us being an equal partner in this bankrupt union,that only applies as long as we behave and do as we are told by our betters.
The recent campaign to smear people who engage in political comment on the internet has drawn me out from lurking to join in. Usually I just enjoy wings from a backseat.
Cameron couldn’t be making it more clear that he thinks he can do what he likes. At the moment he has Mundell standing there saying ‘I’m listening’ but ignoring everyone. Soon he won’t even bother with that pretence.
There must be others in the UK opposed to this. Wales northern Ireland, even some tories and labour? But as I understand it there will not even be debate, it’s being rushed in on a quick vote before the holiday.
Most people in England are not aware of how it works and ‘English votes for English laws’ is a great slogan,sounds like perfect sense if you know nothing about it.
As others are saying the good side is that the second class citizenship of Scotland is going to become so obvious even to those who don’t want to see it
Come on guys. They are only saving us from ourselves.
Cant you see a good deed when its given in good faith!
When the next referendum vote comes along, I am all for the same voting criteria as before however the whole process should be overseen by the EU or European Commission.
There should not be an option to submit a postal vote. It’s the most important vote you will ever make, get off your arse. (Plus all of the people dreaming of an independent Scotland will make that effort. Should stop dodgy practises with postal votes!!)
@JLT
Completely understand where you’re coming from, but I can also understand the possible reasons for others to want a quick turnaround. I wished hard for independence first time around mainly for my (and of course all) children.
An independent Scotland is the goal, but I have to admit that I hoped this would have come to pass for the next generation and so for my kids (selfish, I know). I have one child who will be able to vote very soon, and the other 2 will not be too far behind, and I feel like the fight we took on is destined to be placed upon the future generation instead of having been won for them.
I’ll take independence any way and any time, but I do admit to feeling anxious to get it done while we’re all still in play.
@JLT
Second that JLT.
We need to turn the anger that WM is generating into action to wipe out the unionist supporters in Holyrood next year.
With overwhelming majorities of pro-independence MPs & MSPs in both parliaments we will then have various options and opportunities available to us.
Patience and cool heads are required right now.
Should it be ‘Constitution’? – as in ‘Rangers’?
Training Day says:
1 July, 2015 at 12:24 pm
Nope, no questions, Rev.
Everything predicted to happen on here has happened.
But do those who voted No care? I hear little anecdotal evidence that they do. Most I have engaged with in conversation think they did the right thing, and justify their actions by recapitulating another scare story about taxation, the NHS etc., despite what the evidence of their own senses should be telling them, and despite the scare stories having been debunked ad nauseam.
I hope to God I am wrong and they do care.
They will care when it hits then hard in the pocket. Wait and see.
even if every Unionist MP, MSP or toon cooncilor is wiped out in Scotland, the BBC will still be pumping state propaganda straight into our living rooms with Union Jackie Bird, “Let’s call it Devo-Max” giving it big on how wonderful is the Union.
“This is Berlin calling” – except it is BBC Scotland. Hopefully, in time, few will be listening.
This is Mundell’s finest hour. From here on, it’s downhill all the way for the union. Let the old tory dog have his day. He is absolutely clueless about what is going on and what is about to happen, and he won’t know what hit him. Does anyone think that Sturgeon and Salmond haven’t considered this scenario and that the SNP doesn’t have a plan?
@David Wardrope
David, I can understand your point, but I can’t see another Referendum being carried out until at least 2018 being the earliest. More probably 2019 …2020.
And to get one, well …unless the Tories begin frothing at the mouth over Europe, then I can’t see the SNP implementing a 2nd Referendum this year, let alone next year. I think they will hold and wait and see how England as well as the media react over the EU. Certain factors will be analysed; the mood of England; the Immigration numbers; the media castigation of the EU and Immigration; Westminsters overall view; the Tory backbenchers themselves. There are many factors here that need to be pondered over before declaring for ‘Referendum 2’.
If …and don’t get me wrong …it’s a decent ‘if’ …if the Tories lose the plot over the EU thanks to the Tory backbenches screeching; immigration from North Africa as well as Calais go into overdrive; and the right-wing media goad the English nation into complete xenophobia …and then and only then does it begin to look like an EU exit, then, yes, Nicola will place it in next years manifesto.
But …if the Tories convince the English electorate that the EU is the best place to be, then simply put …there would be no point in shouting for a 2nd Referendum. What would we be declaring a 2nd Referendum for? You would have to be praying that the cuts are so ‘vicious’ that it might ‘just’ galvanise the Scots into considering a 2nd Referendum.
My own view …I think the Tory backbenchers will begin to clamour for an exit once they realise that they key pillars of the EU (Human Rights Act and Freedom of Movement) are so sacrosanct, that they will never be amended. With Backbench howls, a media frothing at the bit, and an electorate that has had enough, then if Nicola throws Referendum 2 on the table, then it may place Cameron into a difficult position. In simple terms and cutting other factors out, if he then tries to pacify the Scots with more promises, then his Party will go nuts as will the media and the English Electorate (as in, the Scots have had their shot back in 2014; what about EVEL and what England wants?). It means he would be fighting 2 Referendums that are pretty opposed to each other once he tries to make his arguments for them both.
If the backbenchers cut loose with a media on the warpath, then yes …game on for Referendum 2.
No questions, not a bit surprised we are back in our box as fa as Westminster is concerned. They think they have neutered us, well we are no moggy for neutering,time we showed our claws. The Lion is awake. those leopards need a good showing who is king of the jungle. Referendum and no waiting.
I can always tell when I am ‘chatting’ to a No voter on any subject that arises in relation to what is happening, even in general ‘political’ terms. They become either silent or belligerent.
I have met no one that I know of who voted No, who has shown the slightest regret. The silent ones? They want a change of subject. The belligerent ones? They go on about ‘one party state’.
By the way I have the strongest sense that some who said they voted Yes, didn’t.
The unionist are also playing the long game, if you listen carefully to all the commentary from that side, how many time have you heard: if the GE had been a year after the referendum, the results of the GE would have been different? They ‘know’ a thing or two about psychology too. The longer they can obsfucate, the less likely people will stay engaged, and I mean those who may have been engaged during the ref campaign because of the enormous efforts of the likes of RIC, Tommy Sheridan, Wings et al.
Also because in some ways a binary proposition was on the table. Conversely the intricacies of the amendments et al, don’t ‘grab’ people in the same way and they ‘switch off’. As people have said until the bill processes all the way through the various stages and it is ‘obvious’ what it actually means, in real terms, we have no sure way of knowing whether this is truly significant enough to ensure a majority would be in favour of another referendum.
Until we know there is a substantial enough %age to secure a Yes, we have to in imv, continue to talk to people to maintain a constant engagement and to focus on removing the next layer of unionist MSP’s next year. Then the council level in 2017.
We do know there is still enough engagement for this to take place. It’s the long game for us too. We need some more polls to show us if this is making any difference, if only for a little bit of positive feedback on the back of the last couple of weeks of frustrating viewing of the HoC’s shenanigans.
When it comes to be that MPs for english constituencies can vote on Scottish issues,but Scottish constituency MPs cannot vote on issues that affects Scotland,and the Scottish Parliament has to ask for permission from the Secretary of State for Scotland to do things for itself,then that is a defacto dictatorship.
No didn’t mean no to the Bettertogether parties,it means do what you want,effectively agreed to dictatorship. If you have no say and another countries MPs vote you down every time even on things every party would agree on,thats a dictatorship.
There may be a solution though,we have to peacefully leave the union if a majority of independence seeking MSPs are elected next year. The people will have settled on that by free and fair elections.
Fundelymundely, didn’t Jim (Savior of the Union), get into politics because of the oppression he witnessed in apartheid South African?
I imagine he might want to join our cause, as EVEL pans out. Shall we accept him into the fold? Are we THAT inclusive?
Arghhh! If my previous comment posted, big fingers caused it to submit before I changed the spelling… anti, anti, anti etc.
Please support the Greeks anyway.
link to indiegogo.com
@ JLT
Completely agree with you, however, with the honourable exception of Scunterbunnet and the billboard campaign the vast majority of us are supine right now.
We really, really need to be out there on the streets ‘meeting and greeting’ folk at our street stalls. A small group in each town with home-printed leaflets highlighting all of westminster’s latest perfidy. Get the repudiations in and get them in IMMEDIATELY.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of the populace will notice what is happening on any particular day but won’t collate Westminster’s actions over any great period of time.
Nowadays laser printer can be got for under £100 and is capable of churning stuff out much cheaper and quicker than an inkjet. Black & white I’ll grant you but you don’t need photo quality for givaways.
We moved the pro Yes vote from 25% to 45% in the referendum so let’s keep on top of it and get the tables out.
Great news for London
Why change it now?
John Moss wrote:
“Perhaps we could start here”
(direct link to Unionist rag removed)
“What do you think?”
No thanks, i don’t help the Unionist cause by clicking on direct links to their pish-peddling web sites. Perhaps i’ll contemplate it if they ever publicly change their stance.
“We back staying within UK, but only if there’s more far-reaching further devolution” – The Herald – 16.09.2014
link to archive.is
I wonder when they plan to stop supporting the UKOK Union?
________
A wee message for those who voted ‘No’ – A wee told ye so!
Scottish farming leaders say ‘Yes’ – The Scottish Farmer:
“I am voting Yes because i believe this is the next logical process after devolution. Lines of communication with government are much quicker and more focussed.”
“The current UK administration and other political parties lack focus, understanding and leadership on many issues, including EU membership. I am deeply concerned of a backlash against Scotland from Westminster if the vote is ‘No’ on September 18.”
“I am not voting for a political party, he stressed, I’m voting for independence.”
link to thescottishfarmer.co.uk
@JLT,
Fine points, just my heart ruling my head. Logically and tactically the base is there to be built upon for the next 5-10 years.
Although, to (badly) paraphrase Monty Python; if you take away the logical arguments and current Westminster obsticles and debate on timing and tightness of the polling and MSM resistance, why can’t we have another referendum right now… 🙂
@Boorach,
Well said, I feel I could have done more before, I’ll try harder now.
‘One of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world’
I’d like to see that claim publicly analysed and ridiculed.
A wee project for a student of Politics.
@ JLT says at 12:45 pm ”Guys, any calls for Referendum 2, let alone ‘UDI’ at this stage is not only pointless, but it is also a game killer. It’s like beginning chess by having your Queen attack the opposing King with your first couple of moves. You do that; you lose …and then you start wondering how you lost! ….. We are not going to win the 50% of ‘No’s on the broken ‘Vow’, nor on the basis that Holyrood isn’t permanent.”
Absolutely right JLT. We are far from ready to call for another Referendum. We’d have to be sure that we had AT LEAST 60% of voters behind us (a clear win next time round) and that wont be as easy as some people seem to think, imo.
I know of some YES voters who are now unsure of how they’ll vote in future because of the oil situation and I’m sure that a fair number of people voted YES previously on the strength of that … the price of oil.
Then we’ve got a hard core of NO voters from two main groups, over 500,000, that to my mind will never change their opinion as they are as set on being part of the Union as we are for Independence.
And of course there are many run of the mill NO voters who don’t visit this type of site and are therefore influenced more by MSM propaganda than anything we have to say. Within that group (and the hard core group) you have people who are fairly intelligent (52.9% of people with degrees voted NO), have done their homework and just don’t want Independence.
We did work hard last year (and beforehand) and managed to push the YES vote up to 45%. We will have to continue to work as hard as we did previously and of course sites like this do make a massive difference ….. So many people online use this as a reference point.
You mention some issues that may scunner the Scots into supporting Independence such as denying us extra powers, stating that the Parliament is not permanent, bad mouthing Scotland in the papers, forcing us to pay for their boys toys such as London Upgrades, HS2, Trident, needing them to provoke Europe and threaten to drag us out, to implement their cuts in full and trying to implement Fracking. Most of the points that you’ve mentioned may not be reported in the Media at all or worse still blamed on the SNP. The EU issue seems to be the most likely candidate to trigger another Referendum but by the looks of it Cameron may have that one stitched up.
The key to it all is the Media and we know that broadcasting will never be devolved to Scotland. I reckon we should be bombarding them to demand that they report what is actually going on in relation to Scotland and complain to them constantly about biased reporting. If MANY of us do this, focus all our efforts say on STV rather than the BBC, I’m sure we would get results by monitoring the news / political programmes, collating the data and sending it off to them on a regular basis. IPSO of course is another avenue that’s open to us.
As to UDI well that’s just crazy talk. The lead up to the Referendum was fairly civilized. If we called for UDI with around at most 50% of the vote it would create absolute havoc in Scotland ….. and there are plenty of people out there just biding their time waiting for the opportunity to arise to do just that.
Heh, its all in the pot noo.
Anyone else remember Dave’s ‘faster, better, safer change’ from his save the union speech and his ‘willing to listen’ spiel from back in 2012? Or howzaboot Broon’s Federal settlement within two years? His pensions and NHS safer in the union?
Oh, the difference a few months make and those speeches will come back to haunt those boys.
A partnership based on lies is no partnership. That’s a home truth that also will chime with many folks out there. There are those of course who knew they were lies even as they were being force fed to the Scottish electorate. Most of them are now out of a job and the rest are sitting on government benches in Westminster. Then there are those who believe in the union right or wrong, yesterday’s votes won’t budge their opinion even an inch regardless.
But, there are a good many people out there who genuinely believed what they were being fed, who hoped for the best, who thought that with the names involved delivery was guaranteed. THEY will need an open hand extended and reassured there is still time and opportunity to right this state of affairs.
There were also the independence, but not yet, voters who felt we weren’t quite ready and how bad could it be? Same deal. Finally there are those who were browbeaten and made fearful, those who felt their pension was under threat, that the NHS would collapse in a heap, that we’d be left defenceless without a friend in the world…, you know the list of bull as well as I do.
All of these people need to know that we can, in fact that we ALL can put this right and hold to account those who mislead them. We made a start in May and next year we can come very close to finishing the job once again at the ballot. Oh and if we ask real nice, maybe our Scottish Government will put something special into that Holyrood manifesto that really will finish the job. After all, Westminster’s establishment is doing a fine job of making the points we need to get across for us. 😉
Now though is the time for patience and an open hand IMO.
It’s high time any notion of declaring UDI is firmly knocked on the head as it couldn’t possibly work and Scotland would be broke in weeks if not days.
For UDI to succeed the independent government would need money – in other words they would have to have the facility to collect the taxes currently sent to WM.
How could that be done in the current situation where all taxation is computerised and where said independent govt. wouldn’t have the necessary computer systems?
How could we stop companies sending their VAT Paymnents, PAYE and NI to HMRC.
How would we stop individuals from doing their Self Assessment and sending Payments to HMRC?
How would we stop companies paying their Corporation Tax to WM?
How would we stop vehicle owners from paying their Car Tax to The DVLA?
How would we stop solicitors from sending Inheritance Tax to WM?
And so on.
People quote the example of Ian Smith and Rhodesia but when he declared UDI his govt. had far more powers than Holyrood has and no doubt administered all tax collection so any comparison with Scotland is totally invalid.
In fact (thinking of one of the Tories’ current slogans) Rhodesia was probably one of the devolved governments with most powers – a damn sight more than they are proposing for Holyrood.
“It’s SHITE being Scottish! We’re the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don’t. They’re just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can’t even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We’re ruled by effete arseholes.”
On the 9th July we should all put our YES flags and badges back on show to indicate our respect for the Thatcherite budget that George will have presented on the 8th. On the 15th July hopefully someone will commission an Indy Poll after the Scottish people have had a week to digest said Thatcherite Budget.
Meanwhile let our 56 keep on showing Westminster and the rest of the UK the fantastic quality of MPs we have in Scotland.
@Grant
Feeling any better lad?
I don’t have a problem with the English either. I have a big problem with the ("Quizmaster" - Ed) collaborators that allow us to be ruled by a shower of wankers and effete arseholes to use your words. Well that is actually a pretty tame description of our sleazy corrupt and criminal Lords and Masters.
For how long. Scotland influences 0.6% in Westminster. Not even 10%.
Taxes are collected in Scotland. HMRC East Kilbride. They are passed on to the UK Treasury. Just pass them to Holyrood.
Timing of next IndyRef? My opinion for what it’s worth …
A number of desirable conditions are already in place – strong SNP in Scotland, Tories in England, Labour sidelined.
Added to this we need to let the current devolution debate run its course. Ideally the SNP should stand on a ‘ticket’ of negotiating DevoMax in the Holyrood 2016 election. Of course, WM will never deliver. The whole FFA/Home Rule issue needs to be flogged to death. Literally, seen as permanently dead, never to rise again. It has to be removed from the table.
Also, sadly, Scotland needs to endure a couple of years of Tory austerity. The more voters who realise enough is enough, the better.
Demographics help. There is probably as much as a 2% swing per annum from No to Yes as older voters are replaced with younger ones.
And to complete the perfect storm, we need oil prices to recover so everyone accepts that is is volatile. It can go up as well as down, but when it’s up it is a very significant income boost to Scotland.
Polls need to show around 60% yes.
So when? 2-3 years given the way WM is behaving and events are unfolding.
K1 said at 1:41pm
“The unionist are also playing the long game… They ‘know’ a thing or two about psychology too. The longer they can obsfucate, the less likely people will stay engaged”
Yes, that is their strategy: Tory cuts will bite; 56 Scottish MPs will be powerless to stem the tide; BBC and the press will spin the tale that only a strong UK Labour party can resist the Tories; Scots will turn back to Labour in the vain hope of stopping Dave or Boris; and normal service of red/blue unionist hegemony will be resumed. They’re going for a re-run of the Thatcher years.
We CAN and must disrupt that plan. To do so, we should learn from countries who already escaped London rule. From the Indians, who made the Raj unworkable by peaceful non-compliance en masse – and from the Irish, who became ungovernable via their ‘invisible republic’ of independent courts, parliament, postal service and so on. (It’s daft to think the Irish drove out the British Empire by armed struggle: they found ways to ignore them until they went away)
The key thing is to make “normal unionist service” unworkable. Getting strong pro-Independence majorities in Holyrood and the local councils is vital. Once that happens, it becomes easier to remove the vestiges of unionist normalcy from our civic society: from the STUC, from public services, from voluntary organisations. Our elected reps can prove to civic groups that their interests are best served on a Scottish level, rather than via London.
The biggest struggle will be about information. Yes, the rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor. Yes, the drip-drip-drip of misinformation and spin from the press can weaken resolve and affright the timid. Yes, our excellent online media and social media presence doesn’t reach many whose opinions could be changed. But none of those things are insurmountable.
Here’s a plan that all of us can follow (steps in increasing order of importance).
1) Keep up the social media push: mock and satirise the current system and its political and media supporters through humorous images, cartoons and slogans, and keep sharing them on facebook, twitter. THE REVOLUTION WILL BE A BIG LAUGH! Nobody will swallow whole anything that Kez or Fluffy or Jackie Bird says on Reporting Scotland, if they’ve seen them shredded by quality satire or parody recently.
2) Keep moving piles of The National to prominent places on the shelves. I’ve noticed Nationals covered by an odd copy of the Heil or the Angling Times in shops: be pro-active in resisting this. Also, once you’ve read your copy, make a point of leaving it on a bus or train or other public space for somebody to browse (but don’t litter)
3) Write a blog. Write about your topic of interest, but include links to Wings, Bella, Common Space, Newsnet as much as possible. That will help boost those sites’ Google rankings. The more pro-independence info people can find, the less we seem radical, and the more we become the mainstream.
4) (shameless plug) Support the nascent campaign by http://inform-scotland.org to put up billboards and other advertising in public spaces, highlighting the failures of MSM as reliable sources of information within a democracy. Similarly, put up bumper stickers, and posters in your window – anything that shows that independence is still a live issue, and that the msm/unionist narrative is not the only game in town.
5) Go to demos and rallies about issues you care about beyond independence (Greece, austerity, ferries, NHS, TTIP, Trident, whatever), flying your saltire and wearing your Yes badges. Embed the (realistic) perception that the national movement is the sole vehicle for social justice.
If enough people take those steps, it will become harder and harder for anyone (even bigoted unionists) to believe that we’re not undemocratically colonised and sedated by propaganda.
Once a critical mass of the population hold that view, we can up the ante. I believe peaceful civil disobedience will eventually be necessary to make Westminster get the message that they’re beat: that they have to accept a referendum result and part amicably. This could be a mass burning of TV licenses, or non-payment of some new unjust Tory tax (give them a couple of years, it’s inevitable), or whatever. Once we have a united society that refuses to enforce London’s edicts, we’re already free.
Please Sir, can I have some more cereal now?
I have a question: When is Scotland going to grow a pair and declare independence?
It will be what it has always been an English Parliament. It will becoming increasingly obvious Scotland has no place there and people in Scotland will vote for Independence. Within five years.
Just as well an SNP gov will be in Holyrood to protect Scotland from Westminster worse aspects, mismanagement, criminality and lies.
£20Billion for an expansion at Heathrow. It takes a day (and night) to get through now. Does no one consider the travelling public. Even more congestion in London S/E. Heathrow is one of the worst airports in the world. Anywhere but Heathrow. Are BA slots still subsidised with public money. While rail services in the North and Scotland are neglected and not even electrified, making journeys longer.
The Tories will tear themselves apart over Europe, they always do. Wait until the cuts start. They don’t even pay/collect enough tax in the rest of the UK to fund essential services and all the largesse schemes. They print more money and increase their debt. Things can only get worse. Civil unrest?
Well, now that Westminster and Scottish unionists have opposed and sneered at any new sensible powers for the Scottish parliament, it will not be long before we have the next referendum. They have completely reneged on ‘the vow’ or anything even remotely similar. As expected.
I watch events unfold with amazement, as those who claim to love this undemocratic and unwanted union, do everything they can to destroy it.
Marvellous! Not long now.
I saw part of the debate today. An SNP MP whose name escaped me said Cameron, although being asked several times, had not answered the SNP’s question re this Bill. Cameron’s response was, that he (the SNP man) should have read the Tory manifesto properly.
I’m sure none of what went on today was in the Tory’s election manifesto.
Can’t say i am surprised by this.
We knew it was gonna happen. Still bugs tho.
All the talk of putting off the next referendum till whenever may note that we are stronger now than ever. Maybe strike while the irons hot so to speak.
My fear is folk will get sick waiting . you can throw out dates and the like but things need sorting now. The next round of cuts are aimed at the poor and infirm AGAIN !!. Tax credits cut , more poverty and misery.
I am sick hearing wait till we get X percent then we go. FFS people know now and only need a nudge to get going.
If SNP have another election without an indi mandate i will drop my membership and vote for anyone who does.
Enough is enough. We cannot stand by chatting while they drag our country through the mire.
O/T
link to caltonjock.com
Scunterbunnet I leave my National in the library every day and I’ve noticed it’s being read on a number of occasions, so hope it will help to enlighten someone. I’ve also made a request to the librarian to order in Alex and Ponsonbys books.
I move the newspapers too and now have my husband and some relatives doing this …. then they brag about it like little kids, lol …. DUH!
I see you’ve taken on-board the name I suggested ‘Inform Scotland’ for the new site. Chuffed with that. Let me know when to set up my direct debit.
Attending rallies, bumper stickers, wearing our badges, flying our flags from cars as we travel around and so on. All good.
I’d also like to see the 100 plus SNP hubs around the country displaying relevant information in their windows such as ‘old news’ …. list of Scotlands resources, McCrone, Stolen Seas etc etc and current news ….. Scottish Parliament still not permanent, amendments to the Scotland Bill knocked back (or words to that effect). And if anyone knows some friendly shopkeeper they may be willing to do this too.
Keep up the good work Scunterbunnet.
@IanH says: 1 July, 2015 at 1:03 pm:
“There should not be an option to submit a postal vote. It’s the most important vote you will ever make, get off your arse.”
Don’t be bloody stupid and get off your bloody hobby horse. There are people out here who don’t know from minute to minute if they will be able to pick up a pencil the next minute and people who couldn’t get to a polling station unaided if it was situated in the next door house of a semi-detached villa.
There are also carers, who get no back-up help of any kind, who would endanger someone’s life if they left them alone to go out to cast a vote.
What should not be allowed is a postal vote simply for the asking as the rule is now.
So if you are implying, as your comment does seem to imply, that all the people who do require a postal vote are all just lazy then you really need to think again.
At the General Election:
SNP got 50.0% of total votes ( just 763 votes shy of an absolute majority of voters, 49.973% is the precise figure… a bit suspect in my view)
SNP + Greens got 51.3% (an absolute majority voted for pro-independence parties)
98.1% of voters voted for a party which supported either independence or ‘the next best thing’ (federalism, devo-ultimax, home rule)
And this democratic will of the sovereign Scottish people is reflected at WM as ‘English Votes for Every Law’, and trivial, unusable tax-tinkering powers to Holyrood.
Democracy, dontcha just love it!
@David McDowell says: I have a question: When is Scotland going to grow a pair and declare independence?
Well certainly not by declaring UDI, have you actually followed and read all the various threads where someone asks this same question. I think you’ve even posted twice to a Facebook page advocating to do just that. When what you could actually end up doing is to cause a lot of mass hysteria which could erupt into street mobs. Is it not better to bide your time and play this the way our 56 MPs are. Take it on the chin we’ve had years and years of this total contempt for us and our country.
Follow our representatives lead and smile they don’t like it when we make fun of it all. That’s our weapon for now good old Scottish humour. We can win this, but not by UDI that way is the cowards way. Scotland grew a pair on the 7th May and it’s just the start!
YESGUY
Perhaps consider 1066 and all that. According to legend, Harold’s lot lost the rag and thought it best to strike while the iron was hot. Ultimately they lost the day, though on a brighter note, an English state was established by the conquering Norman nobles. Many of their offspring still hold sway today. Astonishing but true. 😉
@Luigi says: 1 July, 2015 at 1:33 pm:
” … Does anyone think that Sturgeon and Salmond haven’t considered this scenario and that the SNP doesn’t have a plan?”
You got that 100% right Luigi.
I would say it’s a better bet, than the favourite in a one horse race, that Nicola, Alex and Stuart Hosie and Co. are at least two jumps ahead of every other member of the English parliament.
I’m just watching Parliament TV and Steven Paterson is making his maiden speech. It is great to see that no matter what is being debated the SNP members are always well represented.
I knew they would be, for every one of then who speaks in any debate is making sure that the debate not only has Scottish input but parliamentary business is drawn out that little bit longer. It all delays Tory business a little bit longer.
Add to that the work they are doing in committees also drags out government business. It makes sure that although they may not be able to stop legislation directly they can prevent some of it by dragging out everything else so some government stuff has no time to become an act in that parliamentary session..
1066 to 2066 The first thousand your reich in european history
wullie
What, a hereditary reich? Nah, that would make England the same as North Korea. Isn’t that our job? Then again, I’d imagine these would be British jobs for British workers, so I’m not sure if we Scots would qualify. I suppose legislation introducing job reservation and pass laws might clarify things. 🙂
re: 1066 and all that.
Let’s spare a thought, and moment’s silence (?), for the poor people of England – the Anglo-Norman establishment’s first (and soon to be its only) colony.
@handclapping maybe the Northern League is not the best name to be using in this context. Might get a few Kippers and Daily Mail readers hopes up.
I would only add:
– Brit Governor General for Scottish colony.
Can’t the Scottish Government create an ‘England Office ‘ and appoint an Secretary of State for England in counterpart? Just for the Lols and to show how fcuked up it is?
P.S. on the Scotland office website (front page) it states that that the Uk Gov has delivered / is delivering what the Smith commission recommended. Oops.
Ha very well put and essentially sums up the ludicrous EVEL proposals.
I’ve often said that one of the biggest hurdles in Scottish independence is simply that England has ~ 10 times as many people as Scotland which equates to ~ 10 times as many MP’s who make the laws (the majority anyway). Common sense tells you then that it will then be extremely difficult for that 10% population to have it’s voice properly represented particualry in a harsh FPTP system such as Westminster.
One wonders where Scotland may be right now if the population figures were different – say 5:1, 3:1 or even 1:1. In the words of Stu, I’ll let you draw your own conclusions on that one!
I think this is a trick to push us for a referendum early as they know every year that passes more young internet savy people are able to vote and more no voting older folk are dying..
Hi Scunterbunnet.
Excellent post at 4.19, which rang a number of bells.
The biggest struggle will be about information.
I can’t disagree with that – which leads me to post the following. ‘Newsshaft’, who brought us ‘Dateline Scotland’ in the weeks before the referendum, have a fundraiser on the go, which has only 6 days left.
They’re looking for £10,000 and are just over half way there, with contributions from 244 contributors.
link to indiegogo.com
Here’s an example of their output from 18th/19th September:-
link to youtube.com
And here’s their current web site:-
link to newsshaft.com
______________________________________________________
You also mentioned,
5) Go to demos and rallies about issues you care about beyond independence…
There’s a rally in Edinburgh this Saturday, 4th July – ‘Hands Off Holyrood’ – an ideal opportunity to fly the flags and wear the badges.
link to facebook.com
Daunder from Princes Street at 1pm, to Holyrood for 2.
________________________________________________
Lastly, you also typed,
THE REVOLUTION WILL BE A BIG LAUGH!
Everybody should be spreading this link far and wide…
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
I am wondering if the SNP would be allowed to put in admenments in any “English” bill?
If so, why not stick them in with the most outrageous demands and watch those “English MP’s” voting it down because of the admenments.
For FFA: hows about we become a tax haven. The Torys would certainly vote for that and it would sail through the HoL. That should deliver similar status as the Isle of Man or Channel Islands (none of whom seem to be too poor, too wee or too stupid)
For the full bunnah we could always just “amend standing orders” and return to the position where a majority of SNP MP’s = Independence!
O/T Anyone heard how wee Ruthie’s Postalvotegate is coming on?
Could be filed under Chilcot of course.
gus1940,
“It’s high time any notion of declaring UDI is firmly knocked on the head as it couldn’t possibly work and Scotland would be broke in weeks if not days.”
As night follows day, Robert Peffers’ pedantry follows a sensible post regarding UDI.
In anticipation, I repeat my challenge to Robert Peffers:
“Can Robert Peffers name one SNP politician who has said since 2007 that UDI could be used for independence?
The word UDI must have been specifically mentioned.
If not, he should shut up once and for all on the issue of UDI.
The Rev., and many others more knowledgeable than Robert Peffers, have argued on more than one occassion that UDI would be utter madness.”
@Scunterbunnet says: 1 July, 2015 at 6:20 pm:
“Let’s spare a thought, and moment’s silence (?), for the poor people of England – the Anglo-Norman establishment’s first (and soon to be its only) colony.”
Ah! Scunterbunnet, but you are missing a trick there. In fact the term, “Norman”, hides further truths of history. It is a shortened version of, “Norsemen”, and the historic fact is that, “Normandy”, is named after the, “Norsemen”, who settled in that area. Here’s the real truth : –
So that Norman Aristocracy that is still around today in Britain have been around a bit longer than we are taught in history lessons at school. BTW: Both Bruce & Wallace were Norman Knights.
The feeble 50 plus had no say when the Tories last were in power. Now we have the fabulous 56 in exactly the same position. Apart from using the experience to point out to Scottish citizens how they are really perceived by Westminster politicians whatever they do is going to be pointless unless they become a nuisance – a real nuisance.
One way they can do this is by supporting any and every proposition presented by MPs in the North of England so long as it is not the detriment of Scottish residents.
Divide and conquer, eh? Let’s put the notion into practice. Who knows where it might lead. The border might once again move to where it was many centuries ago and I, as an ex-pat, along with my English relatives, might once find ourselves ‘at home’ without having to change jobs, move, sell our houses, etc.
Admittedly, if his happened, it would be a shame to leave various UK projects such as Crossrail unfinished because of lack of funds. But what the hell, no-one can have everything they voted for.
“Caledonia” 7.29
It is not a trick. The Tories are in a win/win situation – if we have a Referendum and win they have rUK all to themselves. If we have a referendum and lose they have the UK all to themselves.
Proof, if needed, we just lost a referendum and they can do anything they like.
UDI
We cant.
Wee Nicola probably gave the biggest clue as to the reason behind this when she said in her piece in the TN today.
“Referendums are the ultimate expression of democracy”
Therefore to make independence respectable in the eyes of the world and it can’t be disputed this is the way to go.
But why do we need 60% other than to say a significant number of people voted yes. The unionists are quite happy with their 55% and are quite happy to ram this number down our throats at every opportunity as a good majority to say they won and won big if its good enough for them now its good enough for us in indyref2.
@EphemeralDeception says: 1 July, 2015 at 6:48 pm:
“Can’t the Scottish Government create an ‘England Office ‘ and appoint an Secretary of State for England in counterpart? Just for the Lols and to show how fcuked up it is?”
Here’s a couple of wee, little known, historic facts for you, EphemeralDeception.
“Scotland Yard”, is so called because it was originally the site of the old Scottish Kingdom’s Embassy in the then foreign Kingdom of England.
Another fact is that the old De Bruc (Bruce), family had estates in the area that is now Whitehall in London.
Has Robert Peffers finally shut his mouth on the UDI issue?
Another chance for him to come clean:
“Can Robert Peffers name one SNP politician who has said since 2007 that UDI could be used for independence?
The word UDI must have been specifically mentioned.
If not, he should shut up once and for all on the issue of UDI.
The Rev., and many others more knowledgeable than Robert Peffers, have argued on more than one occassion that UDI would be utter madness.”
@Rock says: 1 July, 2015 at 7:57 pm:
“Can Robert Peffers name one SNP politician who has said since 2007 that UDI could be used for independence?”
(Rock, I am going to say this in as nice a manner as it is possible to do so in a reply to a blithering idiot).
I have never, in my entire lifetime, advocated UDI for any part of the World and most certainly not for Scotland. Yet you seem to be under the strange impression that I have or do.
As you also seem totally ignorant of what the actual term, “Unilateral Declaration of Independence”, means, (and I already posted the COD definition for you), then I can only recommend you sign yourself up for a course to study the Comprehension of basic written English.
Or as we say in the lowland Scottish vernacular, “awa an bile yer bliddy heid an learn hoo tae screive the Inglis leid”.
Brian Doonthetoon wrote:
“There’s a rally in Edinburgh this Saturday, 4th July – ‘Hands Off Holyrood’ – an ideal opportunity to fly the flags and wear the badges. link to facebook.com
Daunder from Princes Street at 1pm, to Holyrood for 2.”
Yes and what better way to avoid the sectarian parade in Glasgow.
As far as i know, they’re hosting another one on Saturday.
Spend your hard earned in the capital and give Glasgow a wide birth.
😉
Robert Peffers,
“I have never, in my entire lifetime, advocated UDI for any part of the World and most certainly not for Scotland.”
I never said you were “advocating” it, only that you have been endlessly trying to legitimise it:
“To make that clear – if the SNP had said in their GE Manifesto they would walk out of Westminster and return to Holyrood to run Scotland it would have been legal as they represent the Sovereign People of Scotland.”
Whatever words you use, that would be “UDI” as common people know it.
Can you name one SNP politician who has mentioned any such thing since 2007?
Nicola Sturgeon had made it perfectly clear that the Westminster election was not about independence.
How could our MPs and MSP’s run Scotland when they cannot even hold a legally binding referendum on independence without Westminster approval?
Can you now accept that UDI, or whatever you try to call it in your endless pedantry, is not an option for Scotland?
And while you are at it, can you apologise properly for that racist post you made?
Robert Peffers,
“I can only recommend you sign yourself up for a course to study the Comprehension of basic written English.”
I can comprehend basic written English, as written by normal people, the vast majority of posters here.
I would need an advanced course in pedantry to understand a pedantic bore like yourself.
And that is saying it in as nice a manner as it is possible to do so in a reply to a pedantic bore.
@BornOptimist
Well said!
You too Robert Peffers 🙂
@ Robert Peffers
I have no idea what Rock is talking about. I enjoy reading your posts on Scottish History and the constitutional issues which flow from that. I do hope you keep on posting.
@Rock
I don’t usually intervene but I think you are way out of line with these accusations. Robert Peffers is imo an extremely well read man and if you pushed that huge chip off you shoulder and read his posts you might just gain a bit of knowledge of Scottish history. So here is a post which Robert wrote which mentions UDI and answers those questions you want.
Robert wrote:
We do not need UDI. The legal situation hinges upon the truth of Scottish History in regard to Scottish Law and what are basically Westminster wrong assumptions and downright lies. Westminster has historically claimed full sovereignty over Scotland but has always failed to make it stick but has continued to claim its sovereignty over Scotland.
I’ve detailed it often enough so won’t do so again. I’ll just point out the original Scottish Claim of Right 1689.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The below link is hard going but here for completeness.
link to legislation.gov.uk
Then in 1989 the Scots reaffirmed their Claim of Right and some prominent signatories were Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Donald Dewar, Charlie Kennedy and Ming Campbell.
Here’s a link :-
link to en.wikipedia.org
What these claims of right are is Scotland stating that the Westminster Parliament does not have sovereignty over the Scotland or the Scots as the Constitutional Monarchy formed in 1688 by the importation of William & Mary by England did not apply to Scotland as Scotland remained independent until 1706/7 and that Treaty of Union agreed that Scots Law remained Independent. As Scots law is based upon the premise that the people not the monarch of Scotland are sovereign and the people have never mandated anyone to give away their sovereignty then Westminster could only claim sovereignty as long as the Scottish People allowed them to govern.
So unless anyone can prove otherwise the situation is, that if we mandate the Holyrood Parliament to hold a referendum, (or anything else for that matter), they cannot legally be prevented from doing whatever it is.
Until now the fly in the ointment has been the Members we sent to Westminster were mainly Unionists and took their orders from a London Unionist party. They do not now and thus it is perfectly legal for the Scottish Members to walk out of Westminster and declare the Union is over “if they have a clear mandate of the people to do so”
It would not thus be a UDI declaration but a legally binding political decision of the will of the sovereign people of Scotland.
@Iain More
Actually words of Irvine Welsh.
Cannot really complain about what is happening, we were warned but still %55 of Scotland voted for this .. oh well … stiff upper lip (and all that shite).
Evel is as Evel does.
A future Supreme Court hearing:-
“Scotland, you are charged with the continual seeking self determination which you claim is your Human Right. Well we in this court decide what your Human Rights are and just to be clear about it here they are.
You have the right to remain silent.
That’s it!
Run along now.
DerekM says:
And just what does the EU think about one of its members behavior towards the democratic rights of its Scottish citizens?
Probably about the same as it thinks of one of its member’s behaviour towards the democratic rights of its Greek citizens.
Cherry Loudon,
“Robert Peffers is imo an extremely well read man and if you pushed that huge chip off you shoulder and read his posts you might just gain a bit of knowledge of Scottish history.”
You have failed to note that not even the SNP is paying any attention to Robert Peffers’ version of ancient history.
In the 2007 and 2011 Scottish and 2010 and 2015 Westminster elections why did the SNP not stand on a platform that if they got a majority they would take it as independence being the sovereign will of the people of Scotland?
Why did we have a referendum on independence if all we needed was a majority of SNP MPs and a manifesto commitment to independence?
No matter how many history lessons Robert Peffers posts on this website, there will be no independence without a referendum in which a majority votes Yes.
His historic pedantry will not get us anywhere.
After all why are we still waiting for independence after more than 300 years if we are “sovereign”?
Cherry Loudon,
“Robert wrote:
“So unless anyone can prove otherwise the situation is, that if we mandate the Holyrood Parliament to hold a referendum, (or anything else for that matter), they cannot legally be prevented from doing whatever it is.”
Alex Salmond proved otherwise when he and Cameron signed the Edinburgh agreement giving the Scottish parliament the power to hold a legally binding referendum on independence.
If Alex Salmond had followed Robert Peffers’ historic pedantry, the Scottish parliament would have held the referendum without even telling Cameron that it was going to hold one.
Cherry Loudon,
“Robert wrote:
“They do not now and thus it is perfectly legal for the Scottish Members to walk out of Westminster and declare the Union is over “if they have a clear mandate of the people to do so””
All the polls had suggested a massive SNP win in 2015.
If the SNP had believed in Robert Peffers’ historic pedantry, they would have included a clear independence commitment in their manifesto.
That is why Robert Peffers’ historic pedantry has zero value in the current situation.