At the end of the day
Posted on
September 02, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
You can argue about the words. But it all comes down to this.
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About ten days ago I drove over to Peebles for the agricultural show. I passed Neidpath Castle, and there was this bloody great Butcher’s Apron fluttering from its flagpole. I was muttering things about Wendy Wood all afternoon. Quite spoiled my day.
This evening I had to go to Peebles again, for a purpose which may become clear later, and passed the castle again. A beautiful blue saltire was now flying gaily in the breeze. Cheered my spirits no end.
I don’t know who decides which flag to fly, but I wonder if they can be bribed?
Doesn’t even require thinking.
It needs putting on a t-shirt. Do you mind if I do so?
Correct.
Are we allowed to argue about the colours? Pantone 300.
At the end of the day there’s another day dawning, and the sun in the morning is waiting to rise.
Goodnight all.
That all depends on your definition of each flag.
Some people still believe (perhaps foolishly) that Great Britain means something.
Some will never change their mind no matter how wrong they are.
My kiss will be next to the Saltire, I’m very cross about the other one.
“It needs putting on a t-shirt. Do you mind if I do so?”
Heck no.
I know I’m being pedantic but its Pantone 300 for the official standard of Saltire blue colour now.
Pantone 300 is #0065BD as a hexadecimal web colour.
link to archive.is
Saltire all the way! 😀
“Are we allowed to argue about the colours? Pantone 300.”
I think the right colour is whatever one the people choose. And most of them seem to want something darker.
Didn’t even hesitate. 🙂
…The lower flag being the one Better Together doesn’t want anyone to see, of course.
I was thinking about a long, complex answer to this and why it’s crucial, why everything comes back to it. Then I thought ‘Na’.
Just count when you’re next out and about ‘British’ vs ‘Scottish’ symbols and you’ll have the referendum result within a reasonable margin.
It’s the way these things work; they reflect rather than specifically influence.
The union is just a chapter in Scotland’s history, as ‘Britain’ has been for many countries.
@Sneddon …. Put me down for a tshirt …. maybe 2 …. oh dang, maybe buy my whole family one each!!
Spot the ‘deliberate’ mistakes from better together:
Dear Jim,
…that is what a new poll, carried in some newspapers seems to suggest today. For the first time in this contest the anti-UK campaign has a poll lead over our campaign.
We could just dismiss this poll. We could say that because the poll was commissioned by the SNP you should ignore it. Or we could point you to another, independently commissioned poll at the weekend which showed Scots are turning against independence.
Today’s poll only has the nationalists ahead by 1% but that is enough for them to win. And they only need to win once – if we leave the UK there will be no going back.
So today I am asking you to stand up and be counted. If you ever thought this referendum was already won, today should come as a warning of what will happen if we are complacent or if we take the voters for granted. If you don’t want the front pages to look like this next year you need to stand up and play your part.
Bought an awesome tshirt the other day. Your basic monotone picture of Che Guevara but with a see you jimmy hat on and the phrase “Viva lá Devolution”. 🙂
Pantone 300?
That is an Italian cake shirley?
Flags are symbols that mean different things to different people and everyone will have a different feeling, thoughts and emotions when they see them. For me it comes down who is best placed to deliver a fairer and wealthier Scotland.
When I see the Saltire, I see aspiration and I feel a new a positive vision for myself and for all of the people of Scotland.
I see misery in the Union Jack, past, present and future. It represents a barrier to the people of Scotland developing a way forward that suits the needs of the people of Scotland.
I will be at the Rally in Edinburgh on the 21st of September and I’m bringing my foreigner of a mother! Unionsits don’t seem to like em much at the moment, the word is always used as some sort vile thing to be!
Don’t call me Shirley! 😀
Rev, that`s spot on. That image on a placard or poster would be so strikingly persuasive. Simple but very effective.
It’s gonna be there!
Nah, the Unionists will complain that it is biased.
It states vote ‘X’ only once’.
Which flag looks like an ‘X’?
See, totally biased 😉
The union flag seems to being used less and less by the no campaigners .
I see Alex Johnson on newsnight was sporting a Scottish and an English flag ,have the naysayers abandoned the union flag to the far right and the orange order .
Yers the union jack is just suggestive of oppression, it’s too in your face. Looking foward to an Independent forward looking Scotland, with hugely regained vigour and self esteem. It’s got to happen, not just for the good of Scotland but for the many, far and wide.
After years of being asked “When are you two gettin married?” by family and friends I have come up with a solution (other half has agreed).
Me and the other half will get hitched if we get independence, with the big day to be on our 1st independence day. So if they want to go to a wedding they know what to do (I’m looking at you, unionist In Laws). 🙂
fittie says:
The union flag seems to being used less and less by the no campaigners .
I see Alex Johnson on newsnight was sporting a Scottish and an English flag ,have the naysayers abandoned the union flag to the far right and the orange order .
If their that fucking proud of it they should be flying it at every opportunity.
Megsmaw – brilliant, bloody brilliant rofl!
@sneddon – Great idea are you doing a ‘Del Boy’ and selling ’em? If so I would like to purchase at least a two. Cheers.
Reminds me of the Scottish Public Opinion Monitor infographic which the NO campaign regularly put up on their Facebook page showing the YES under the Saltire and the NOs under the Union Flag. The fact that none of them seem to notice the glaring Scotland v UK (rather than Scots Indy v Scots unionist) speaks volumes.
link to ipsos-mori.com
HandandShrimp – “Pantone 300?
That is an Italian cake shirley?”
No, it’s a shampoo!
By the way, cheers Stu – I’ve just gone and scratched a big cross on my screen.
@megsmaw. Superb!
I wish I could do that with my out laws…. but I have already married their daughter. 😉
At the end of the day, the Yes campaign still has to appeal to those with a joint Scottish / British mentality.
It’s as much about identity as economics for many people.
Talking up Britain as a social union isn’t the easiest message, as it is easily confused with the political UK union.
But the majority of voters who feel mainly Scottish are going to vote yes anyway.
It’s the other lot we have to convince…
Those with lots of English friends and relatives they think they might offend, a huge chunk of the rangers support, those with connections to the British army etc.
If these people can be made to feel that a British identity is still possible, and still welcome in an independent Scotland, then it’s going to be a lot easier.
We are going to be swamped with red white and blue next year during the war celebrations, and no doubt every supermarket, newspaper and TV show will be promoting “The Great British this, that and other..”
Perhaps we shouldn’t try to fight it.
Maybe the SNP should even fly the union jack alongside the saltire at times, promoting an ‘Independence within Britain’ message.
Or alongside English, Welsh and Irish flags.
Showing we are all still going to get along afterwards – it’s about self-government, not separatism and division.
It could be an opportunity to promote a genuine ‘best of both worlds’ message, and convince many others to consider a YES vote.
Just saw an article in the Herald – John Curtice is speculating that Panelbase polls might be showing a pro-Independence lead because they don’t ask the referendum question first. Instead they ask questions about the Scottish Government’s performance and track record and then ask the big one.
It isn’t clear from the Herald piece whether this is somehow regarded as “cheating” – but I reckon it is perfectly valid – people should be considering where their best interests lie – and a large part of that is how Holyrood has performed as a shield against Westminster since 1997.
…incidentally – I noticed that Better Together are opening a shop at the top end of Union St Aberdeen.
It’s a pretty doomed location – in the last 5 years it has been a hi-fi outlet, clothes shop, pottery shop and sundry other failed ventures.
I’ll keep an eye on it, and report any clamouring hordes of Unionists queuing to get in.
handandshrimp says
“That is an Italian cake shirley?”
no that’s three hundred italian cakes,
and don’t call me shirley
That “shop” has been “open” a while I believe, but it’s actually an office so it’s not open to members of the public. Unless of course you have a U-KOK t-shirt on.
Scottish Skier
Here is what the North of Glasgow Thinks
link to t.co
@Ray – fair enough – I’m seldom up that far on Union Street. Good to see the Vitol cash being squandered – unless of course ACC have cut them a special deal.
Delighted to see the Saltire flying alongside the other European flags in the newly opened city square in Dundee. Right next to the French.
Unfortunately the Butchers’ Apron was still in the middle.
I’ve had a few t shirts printed with the flag and ‘Free in 2014’ and ‘Vote Yes in 2014’.
The seem to attract quite a lot of attention.
Got them done with Visaprint.
You send them your design.
link to vistaprint.co.uk
@sneddon
Not sure what you’re thinking re t shirts, numbers etc, but if you’re thinking a large amount, different sizes etc happy to help with that end of it. Anyway you may well have all in hand, just thought I’d ask.
Isn’t it sad that a group out to persuade Scots to vote no, will only allow you onto their premises if you know the handshake? and use dead letter drops to let people know where their next secret/public meeting is?
anyone would think it was they who are despised and vilified universally by the press?
maybe its because its not the press who are judging them but the public who are finding them wanting?
I was in Sainsbury’s the other day and was bemused to find a large shelf on entering the shop proclaiming “Scotland’s favorites”
which had such delights as Marshalls macaroni, lees macaroon bars, barrs irn bru, and well you get the idea, and felt, have I just become a racial minority in my own country? I wonder if they have a shelf in, oh I don’t know Windsor say,which proclaims England’s favorites?
Then looked at the flowers for sale, very pretty indeed but couldn’t help but notice the red white and blue bouquets and just to make sure we thicko jocks get the message adorned with a union flag, then went to the homeware section to be assailed by an array of mugs with again the ubiquitous flag on them but strangely no saltire dressed mugs to be seen,
starting to wonder what Sainsburys policy on independence is? maybe I’ll ask them
Noticed in a well known food hall that all the beers on show had Union flags on the tops. Was a bit concerned until realising that they eventually finished up in the dustbin anyway
Stu what has happened to your ‘chill out area’ or ‘off piste thread’, have you discontinued it?
Tattie Bogle @ 6:19am
That has to be LIDL
Best sell it in their Calais store souvenir remainder bins. Two chances; gets them coming and going.
From today’s Herald (p.9):
Referendum editor named
The former editor of the Independent on Sunday has been named the BBC’s independence referendum editor.
John Mullin will head the BBC’s referendum coverage, which will include debates and special documentaries, in the 12 months leading up to the historic vote.
He will be based at BBC Scotland’s Pacific Quay HQ in Glasgow.
Mr Mullin, 48, a Glasgow University graduate, left the Independent on Sunday in February after five years as editor. He has also worked for the Scotsman, Guardian and Independent. He said: “This is going to be a historic year for Scotland and I’m delighted to be taking up this new role at the BBC.”
I love the Saltire. It looks fresh, clear and honest. Anyways the wee nursery round the corner from me always flew the UJ until a couple of months ago and now the beautiful saltire flutters in the wind. Gives me a boost every time I walk past, its so uplifting on a dull day.
To be honest, Rev, your right; you don’t need words. A picture speaks a thousand words.
Just look at that picture for 5 seconds. For me, I can’t help looking to the Saltire. This is the flag of my country, not the Union Jack.
For those of the Unionist persuasion, that picture must make them break into a sweat and give them the shakes. What box do they tick? Surely to tick the Union Flag would make you question everything that you feel about Scotland. You are in effect voting for another country over Scotland. Must be hard to look at your Scotland top when ticking the box for the Union Jack!
And before Unionists moan about that, well, lets change the picture. Put the same picture above in front of them, but replace the Saltire with the EU Flag. Just keep the same crap that they are spouting about ‘being better together’ and ‘going it alone is terrible’. My bet is that they would not hesitate to vote for the Union Flag. They would tick that box in a heartbeat! And in there, lies the hypocrisy of the Unionists. Under the exact same conditions and shite that they spout, they would vote ‘Nationalist’ in the blink of an eye.
Vote Yes and make Scottish history.
Vote No and make Scotland history.
Bugger (the Panda)
yes it is ,they do good marketing lots of saltire based products which are not on the shelf for long 🙂
I hope there is a large increase in the amount of saltires that are flying from public buildings and in your gardens at home if you have one, even from windows if you stay in a flat. Fly it with pride. There is also stickers that you can get for your car. You could be driving in front of someone who is just needing that little nudge towards a Yes vote and your saltire could swing it. As Morag mentioned earlier, you do get a lift when you see the saltire flying proudly in the wind.
Saltire in the sky
On the day of our independence, I hope the Scottish government hires a couple of aircraft to draw a huge white smoke “X” in the blue sky. Occasionally two jet trails cross in a clear sky and it looks awesome. The last time I saw a saltire in the sky was a natural, cloud X shape at the rally last year, and I was not the only one!
I think that might be the wrong saltire 🙂
The first time when I really noticed the Union Flag it was on a flagpole inside the British Embassy compound in Kuwait, behind high walls topped with razor wire. I thought how sad ! My driver got upset when I photographed it. Trouble?
Hail Alba
I see we are also being asked to vote for a national tree. If we vote No next year, we should be forced to adopt the monkey puzzle tree.
Scaredy Cat
The Weeping Willow?
I will
O/T
Osborne on GMS telling the sweaties that only the ‘broad shoulders’ of the UK can deal with the volatility of oil revenues.
Norway lacks these broad shoulders. Its oil fund is approaching 500 billion, just pipping the UK’s which stands at 0.
I’m now convinced by Scottish Skier’s theory.
ditto to Training Day. I always have had the same theory and so far I have seen nothing to refute it.
I had a nice uplifting moment in the wee shop where I get my morning coffee the other day, I asked for a lighter. She asked if I wanted a cheapo one or a Clipper. I plumped for the clipper and she turned around and said with a smile; “Here, would you like a nice patriotic one?” and handed me a Saltire clipper lighter. First time I had ever seen one. Made my day. :o) Also worth noting, that the shop always has one single copy of the Scotsman… and it is never sold. :o)
The last time I saw a saltire in the sky was a natural, cloud X shape at the rally last year, and I was not the only one!
It wasn’t all that “natural”, it was two jet contrails crossing. See them all the time. In fact, there’s a cracker as the background to Stu’s twitter page. If you google the right terms, you can get a page of them.
Oh and by the way, Stu, that flag in the graphic is way too dark. Looks depressing. Get it right.
What I want to know is, what were two jet planes doing in the sky over Athelstaneford in 832?
O/T. Does anyone know anything about the so-called gagging legislation being debated in parliament today? Should we be worried?
blog.38degrees.org.uk/2013/08/30/uk-gagging-law/
Like this Morag… 🙂
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=saltire+contrails&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=IZUlUqu2LceN7Aas-oHYCQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=923
Albalha- thanks for your kind offer. I was just going to print the one myself and see how it goes. Hopefully have it done for the march and see what the reaction is. If positive I’ll speak to the Rev as it’s his design and should be available on the Wings mega store.
But to be fair anything I wear tends to look like a empty sack of tatties 🙂
@sneddon
No worries, just a thought, no desire to step on any toes! Life way too short for that.
On the whole issue of ‘flagging’, if you’re interested in it from an academic perspective Michael Billig’s ‘Banal Nationalism’ is a good read.
Basically the power of a flag being everywhere and yet people not being aware of its impact on day to day life.
O/T but an amusing example of who good some in the No Scotland camp are at reading and comprehension. An acquaintance of mine set her facebook status last night to “I can make up my own mind about Scottish independence so please don’t feel the need to fill my page with a pile of political crap”. The first (and, currently, only) comment was ” Forget indepence we would fall flat on our faces we need great Britain”.
Gizzit
Re the Curtice article I am not sure he is suggesting it is cheating but is just noting that people are disposed to voting Yes after a couple fairly simple questions that make them think about they want.
Better Together should take note because the month before the vote will be when the serious money is spent on bill boards, posters, TV adverts and newspaper adverts and with the Yes campaign’s considerable advantage in foot soldiers taking to the streets. The Yes campaign will be framing the debate very simply and very clearly “Do you want more of this or do you believe Scotland can do better?” The way the No campaign has gone to date their TV adverts and posters will be Doom music to slash your wrists to.
I think that Prof Curtice has at least tried to be objective in his analyses. He always puts one side, and then quickly follows up with a “However………”. The apparent, slight bias toward the polls favouring NO may simply be a reflection of the fact that, well, most polls have favoured NO during the past two years. Until more polls favour yes, the latest one, for the time being, can legitimitely be treated as an outlier, a rogue. Time will tell – I don’t think we will have long to wait. What the Prof is doing at the moment, sensibly, is something that BT have failed to do spectacularly, i.e. make sure you have options!
In regards to the BetterTogether office in Aberdeen, as far as I’m aware the owner of the property is basically letting it to them free of charge, as he’s a supporter of the union. And I *think* it is meant to be open to the public – it’s probably just difficult to find enough volunteers to staff it.
Not sure the apron’s got as much pull these days. Belongs to days of Empire and when the UK used to have a permanent seat on the UN Security Council (ok I’ve projected myself a few years into the future for that last bit). But even the English don’t seem to use it as much anymore.
Great idea for a T shirt tho. Someone could make good money for the Yes coffers with a wee stand at the bottom of Calton Hill on the 21st.
Sneddon says – But to be fair anything I wear tends to look like a empty sack of tatties
You don’t happen to know any ladies who are ‘amply endowed’ and/or gentlemen with rippling pecs, who could wear the t-shirts for you, thus causing the top option to be ’emphasied’ and the bottom one to be ‘over-shadowed’?
Or would that make it a leading question? 😀
HoraceSaysYes – I don’t know about ‘amply endowed’ ladies but my stomach is fairly ‘well endowed’ and indeed, on reflection, looks like a full sack of potatoes. 🙂
I saw a Union flag flying the other day and I was surprised. I automatically wondered if there was a significant date I had forgotten/didn’t know about. I expect flags in Scotland to be Saltires these days. The Union one seems archaic almost foreign. Not sure when that happened. I am sure when I was a kid the Union flag was everywhere.
@Sneddon – In that case, be careful, lest you seem to be favouring the lower option, then! lol
You’re correct that’s exactly what it’s about.
Slightly o/t a FB friend of mine has shared a photograph of the Red Hand of Ulster flag saying that it has been banned from FB as offensive and, has asked all Rangers supporters to share it. By this he means all OO Rangers supporters. Out of curiosity I went on to his FB page although I do not know him. There amongst all the red, white and blue, RTID, WATP etc was Yes to Scottish Independence and Scotland is a nation not a region and the words of David R Ross:
I stand before this flag. The white Saltire of St Andrew in the blue summers’ sky.
It represents the soil from which I sprang, and to which, one day, I must return.
It represents Scotland.
As it was. As it is. As it always will be.
@Horace says Yes
You don’t happen to know any ladies who are ‘amply endowed’
Or would that make it a leading question?
Leading question? I dread to think what that might lead to 🙂
Rev,suggest you reduce the size of the Butcher’s Apron such that the T-shirt will emphasise my V shaped (male) torso (I wish).
@ Training Day is Scottish Skier’s theory something you’d like to share. Don’t mean to be nosey just interested. Thanks.
Weedochandorris
I’ll leave SS to outline his theory but mine is essentially the same.
SS will articlulate better than me but, I just had a sneaking wee feeling that the Edinburgh Accord went too well for AS and the YES group.
Simply I wondered if AS and DC hadn’t done a deal (unwritten and impossible to verify) that DC will support the Yes vote indirectly by undermining the No side as necessary.
Labour (AD) essentially head the NO group and DC is not really too inclined to aid Labour to retain their 50+ seats in Scotland. They go, and Scotland retains Sterling, continues to supply UK priced electricity, gas, food and maybe water to rUK after. The bit about Trident is the difficult bit but maybe Cameron wants to not buy the replacement because he can’t afford it anyway. Blame AS?
Shorn these guaranteed 50+ Labour seats from Scotland the Tories have a much better and easier chance of retaining control of Westminster for a generation? Labour woould need to morph into a right wing party more in keeping with the SE England which is where UK GEs are won or lost.
Clegg has done for the LibDems and we are looking at a redPillblue type of politics, similar to the USA. everything fought and won by way of marketing, razzamatazz and advertising with control of the MSM vital. Halfway there already.
It is funny that whenever the NO team come up with a squib in the campaign, up pops some toffee nose of a Tory or some madhouse scheme (to invade Coulport, bomb Glasgow Airport etc) to change the news flow.
Mad as it seems I haven’t seen anything yet to disprove it in practice.
I am sure SS will put a lot of meat on the bones of my hairbrained paranoia and make it almost half believeable.
@weedeochandorris
I’m sure SS can speak for his theory, but it essentially boils down to this:
link to bbc.co.uk
The Tories want shot of us to shore up Westminster rule for them for decades. There was more than a touch of the agent provocateur about Osborne on the radio this morning.
Thanks TD and SS. I absolutely agree and have been thinking this for some time. They want out of the union, regardless what they say or what face they’re speaking out of. It’s what we want and what they want so why are they pretending otherwise as I would’ve thought its a win-win situation. They must have some dirty secret, something that they think is a win for them and a massive loss for us? Whatever it is they are welcome.
How do people feel when a Tory politician comes to Scotland to remind us all that we are very lucky to be under the “broad shoulders” of the UK (Herald headline)?
Do we find this message comforting and reassuring, or do we find it offensive and patronising?
Thanks Bugger (the Panda) & TD. I’m new to all this and a bit shy on posting, although I like to try, but do tend to sit at the back of the class. It really helps when others more articulate than myself can put things (maybe I’ve had rummaging around in my mind as well) into simple terms. So glad we have WOS and you guys on our side!