A reader writes
Posted on
April 16, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We were dismayed to hear this morning that the Scottish Parliament had wussed out on holding a debate on Margaret Thatcher’s legacy which had been scheduled for the day of her funeral (though not during it). But we were immediately cheered up again by this indirectly-related reader comment:
“By the way did I hear correctly that the funeral is supposed to have a Falklands theme? Would it therefore be bad taste to suggest putting Thatcher into a General Belgrano-shaped coffin and have it sunk into the grave by a hearse disguised as HMS Conqueror?”
Now THAT we’d pay money for.
‘Now THAT we’d pay money for.’
To be pedantic we’re already paying money for the sclerotic, maudlin, Ruritanian guff that passes for an expression of Britishness nowadays. But you’re right, I’d pay EVEN more money for the Belgrano scenario.
I was about to add a wisecrack then decided against it; too many young men died because of the stupidity of both Argentinian and British politicians.
Thatcher and Galtieri have a lot to answer for.
Would there be a role for Tam Dalyell??
rough bounds: If we can’t wisecrack at times like this, then THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON.
Rev. Stu.
I hope that you have an article regarding Thatchers funeral tomorrow. I have a sizeable comment rattling around in my head that I hope to post.
Further to the Majors comment a variation could be that the coffin is a replica of HMS Sheffield and it could be destroyed by an exoset missile.
Although we’re not permitted to hear the actual chimes of Big Ben during the funeral procession, am I right in thinking that the BBC are to follow precedent and sync in the voice of an actor to faithfully reproduce them?
It came to me in the bath. There wasn’t any water in it, I was just standing there with my head to one side.
I still think the funeral should be cancelled and her coffin and pall-bearers should be entered into the London marathon on Sunday instead. That would have been a more fitting send-off for her. It would save public money whilst also appealing to her competitive instincts.
Perhaps we could also have the pallbearers of Thatcher’s coffin having a wee wander about, just so everyone’s unsure of which direction it’s heading.
As I commented last week, I thought Defra were responsible for burning poisonous old cows.
The hypocrisy of the Falklands war and the loss of the lives of these young men on both sides is vomit inducing.
The historical facts are that the bloody war could have been avoided in the first place had the UK government responded properly to intel reports that warned of an incursion.
”
Argentina exerted pressure at the United Nations by raising subtle hints of a possible invasion, but the British either missed or ignored this threat and did not react. The Argentines assumed that the British would not use force if the islands were invaded.[4][5]
According to British sources, the Argentines interpreted the failure of the British to react as a lack of interest in the Falklands due to the planned withdrawal (as part of a general reduction in size of the Royal Navy in 1981) of the last of the Antarctic Supply vessels, HMS Endurance, and by the British Nationality Act of 1981, which replaced the full British citizenship of Falkland Islanders with a more limited version.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
However just as President Galtieri used the invasion as a means to gain political strength for his failed government, Thatcher was like wise advised that the Falklands campaign would unite the country behind her once more and return her to power, as it did.
The death and destruction could all have been avoided has the UK responded in time and sent the Navy to signal their support for the islands. That they failed to do so is a stain on the history of the UK. Yet again sacrificing our youngest and finest to self interest and political expediency. Scotland can no longer afford membership of this post colonial club of toffs and public school misfits.
Ronald should be there
Iain says: Perhaps we could also have the pallbearers of Thatcher’s coffin having a wee wander about, just so everyone’s unsure of which direction it’s heading.
*spits tea* You owe me a keyboard, sir
@Iain,
LOL.
Were that to happen, I can just hear the pall-bearers mumbling to each other: ‘You turn if you want to’!
What the fuck? They’ve moved the debate? What a bunch of fucking pussies.
Thatcher Polls
Combination of TNS and ICM to give 200+ subset for Scotland.
Was Thatcher good/bad for Britain:
UK
Good = 46%
Bad = 34%
Very Good = 20%
Good = 26%
NGNB = 12%
Bad = 14%
Very Bad = 20%
Scotland
Good = 24%
Bad = 56%
Very Good = 9%
Good = 15%
NGNB = 13%
Bad = 16%
Very Bad = 40%
@Jake–
‘Although we’re not permitted to hear the actual chimes of Big Ben during the funeral procession, am I right in thinking that the BBC are to follow precedent and sync in the voice of an actor to faithfully reproduce them?’
Oh aye, aye, aye…it’s got to be Brian Blessed.
Men died on HMS Sheffield, cooks & stewards as the exocet hit the galley, nice to see jokes about it.
Ugly side of nationalism!
“Men died on HMS Sheffield, cooks & stewards as the exocet hit the galley, nice to see jokes about it.
Ugly side of nationalism!”
No, the “ugly side of nationalism” is those men being put in the path of a missile for the sake of politics. They are not the butt of the joke. The joke is satire aimed at the person/people who got them killed.
Leslie Phillips would be my first choice for a replacement Ding Dong.
Just seen on the Rev’s Twitter feed that Matthew Sinclair of Taxpayers Alliance will be speaking at Thatcher’s funeral. It’s official then, Wednesday’s events are now beyond satire. In light of this, couldn’t they give Frankie Boyle a gig?
The more of this insane deification of Thatcher by the Brits the better. Because that is what defines our different values. I look forward to the next set of Scottish opinion polls with eager anticipation
O/T sorry …
Quite a column from Harry Reid in The Herald today attacking Better Together. Quote: “Alistair Darling wants Mr Blair to play a greater role in current British politics. I think that would be disastrous, though I would not mind him playing a prominent role in Better Together – for that would surely give a huge boost to the Yes campaign.”
link to heraldscotland.com
“Men died on HMS Sheffield, cooks & stewards as the exocet hit the galley, nice to see jokes about it.
Ugly side of nationalism!”
Yeah, and Men Women and Children in this country are starving to death whilst we pay ten million quid for one womans funeral.
The Ugly side of better together.
Falklands -themed funeral? There should be no television coverage whatsoever other than that spokesman (Ian MacDonald I think it was, with the black-rimmed spectacles) reading a 500 word description of the proceedings, with maybe a quick report from Michael Nicholson saying he counted one coffin into the cathedral and one came out…..
I think I would be correct in saying that General Galtieri was the only dictator that Thatcher wasn’t supporting at the time
Late to the party as usual…. Heres my offering from the previous thread!
As she’s being cremated it would save a hell of a lot of money to just put her on ice till the next up-helly-a. Maybe the lads could create a scale model of the Belgrano for her just as a final touch of irony!
Heard, on the wireless, I think….. As main advocate of the free market the funereal should be privatised, put out to tender and contract awarded to lowest bidder!
O/T
John Beattie of BBC has just had all his arguments and misconceptions soundly put in their box by Jim Cuthbert who was being interviewed about Scotland having its own currency It was a joy to listen to
John obviously thought at the start of the interview that he had the stick of the day with which to give the SNP a flogging He was armed with all his questions and had every one very eloquently shot down
John Beattie programme he may not have done the interview (Sorry)
Anyway, the good news is “This Lady’s not returning!”
Former Naval Person says:
Men died on HMS Sheffield, cooks & stewards as the exocet hit the galley, nice to see jokes about it.
Ugly side of nationalism!
I understand your anger at this post sir, however I believe you have misguided your anger here.
It is my understanding that Sheffield was communicating with London at the time of the Exocet hit. A sister ship believe it might have been the Glasgow, was tracking the Exocet inbound but was unable to raise the Sheffield. Further because Sheffield was “talking” to London they had their defence radar switched off because it interfered with the communication links to London.As a result the Sheffield was a sitting duck for the Exocet.
If you are to feel upset or angry at anyone then I would politely suggest your anger should be targeted at the MOD not people who are using satire as a means of attacking this ridiculous sycophantic funeral. If the MOD had ensured that the ships operating in the Falklands were capable of operating ALL their systems together at the same time then quite clearly Glasgow would have been able to warn Sheffield and Sheffield would have been able to ward off the Exocet.
No one who posts on this site uses the death of extremely brave servicemen lightly and no one ever uses their deaths as the punch line of jokes. What has happened here is that the demise of Sheffield and some of her crew is being used as satire to attack the ridiculous sycophancy that is the funeral of Thatcher. Despite their best efforts the BBC and other media outlets can NOT hide the fact that Thatcher was the MOST divisive P.M. ever to lead the country.
Well whadaeyeknow, England will have valuable assets to match Scotlands’ oil and gas reserves come our independence..judging by all the hot air and wind power being spouted over Thatcher, the good news is its not going to run out anytime soon! Ding Dong…
I for one will watch a bit of the funeral.
Got to make sure they screwed down that coffin down right.
I’m still freaked out about the end of CARRIE.
I can’t help wondering, if, in the light of last year’s Brit-fest – the Jubilee, the Olympics, etc., the London Establishment hasn’t entered into some kind of weird twilight zone of delusional self-importance reminiscent of the days of Victoria and the Empire.
I honestly find the over-reaction to the death of this politician – because that’s all she was, at the end of the day – completely over-the-top. She was a politician, paid to do a job. That’s it. End of. Some people think she did her job well and others think she was a disaster.
I can’t see any grounds for the fuss they’re making and the money they’re spending. We make heroes of politicians at our peril. And to give them the public prominence we do just encourages celebrity-seeking nut cases into politics. And we’ve got plenty of them already.
Why couldn’t they just give her a quiet, dignified family funeral like the rest of us and leave it at that? It’s bad enough that in life some are treated more equally than others, but to do it in death as well, is just the supreme irony.
@Former Naval Person.
Am I to assume that jokes about the Belgrano = good.
Jokes about the Sheffield = bad?
The Man in the Jar, former army person.
YesYesYes says:
16 April, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Just seen on the Rev’s Twitter feed that Matthew Sinclair of Taxpayers Alliance will be speaking at Thatcher’s funeral.
I wonder if he’ll have anything to say about the spending of taxpayers’ money on this circus……probably not, is my guess.
“I wonder if he’ll have anything to say about the spending of taxpayers’ money on this circus……probably not, is my guess.”
Short answer is no. Check @GerryBraiden’s Twitter (or my retweets of it) for more on that subject.
Jeannie says:
16 April, 2013 at 1:29 pm
I can’t help wondering, if, in the light of last year’s Brit-fest – the Jubilee, the Olympics, etc., the London Establishment hasn’t entered into some kind of weird twilight zone of delusional self-importance reminiscent of the days of Victoria and the Empire.
Thatcher was the establishment’s champion. She denied there is such a thing as society, set about destroying the principle of collective barganing, privatised much of our democracy and unleashed the forces of casino banking that have destroyed the British economy. She essentially did everything in her power to return the social balance to that of the Victorian eara. She may have belived she was acting in the best interests of the British people, but the reality is that she was a class warrior. The OTT funeral is only fitting for such a champion of the rich and privellaged.
What a brilliant idea for the coffin.
Do you think The Sun could be persuaded to print that headline again.. ‘GOTCHA’
@ Jeannie; I fully agree with you. England seems to be sliding – in self delusion – to some kind of theme park of “All our yesterdays”.
Next up will be similarly scaled funerals for England’s Sporting Heroes.
@velofello
Oh….I’d forgotten about “All our Yesterdays”. Made me smile.
CameronB,
welcome home! And just in time for tomorrows shindig too. (smily)
Since we’re into talking about death and funerals at the moment, and to give further publicity to the current debate and demonstrations on WMDs, I’m grabbing the opportunity to quite brazenly post a link to my favourite “departure” song.
link to youtube.com
Favourite euphemism: We’ll just drop our agendas and adjourn
My take on Thatcher, though no friend of the working class, was that she fought against the establishment as well, in so far as she was an aspirational middle class Tory who didn’t like those patrician Tories who knew their place at the top of society but also gave a thought for the little person. Ironically though the rise of the barrow boy in finance was more than countered by the fall of the rest of the working class, and those at the top, freed by Thatcherism
of the obligation to care for those at the bottom, have used their in built advantages of existing wealth and networks to pull away from the masses. So although it wasn’t meant to, Thatcherism caused inequality to massively increase.
And this is how I have always envisioned Maggie:
link to hinduism.about.com
Kali, goddess of destruction and change.
FYI
“Former naval person” was the nom de plume used by Churchhill in his correspondence with President Roosevelt in the early part of WW2 before the Americans entered the war.
My favourite bad fire adieu is quite appropriate for Scotland vis-a-vis Maggie
link to youtube.com
@Braco
Thank you for the welcome, and I promise I will try to behave appropriately tomorrow. (smiley)
Are they seriously going to use a Falklands theme for the funeral?
My God.
Every time I think the current government reaches the absolute nadir of wilful cluelessness, they pull something like this out of their hat. They had Osborne at the Paralympics, they have a “tribute” session at Parliament, and now this. They honestly don’t seem to have the slightest understanding of why Thatcher is so hated by whole swathes of the country. And now, during a time where there is significant controversy and opposition to current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, they think it’s a good idea to centre an already massively unpopular state-in-all-but-name funeral around another deeply divisive war.
To be perfectly frank, I’m not just angry about the funeral, I’m actually frightened. I genuinely fear that there will be deaths, be it casualties from a riot, police brutality a la Ian Tomlinson, or worse – some political extremist decides to plant a bomb for whatever cause they espouse. Now that the “theme” of the funeral (the hell is this, a funeral or a Disney parade?) is actively based on war – not something which could be viewed in a positive mindset like the much-vaunted “rebuilding of Britain,” or one of Thatcher’s more popular policies among her supporters, but a war. One wonders if Tony Blair’s funeral will have an Operation Telic theme.
@Taranaich
When it is Blair’s time we should close the coffin with nails made from depleted uranium Then a Kuwait burning oil field cremation theme would be fitting.
Will Danny Boyle be organising it?
Seasick Dave says:
Will Danny Boyle be organising it?
In that case it’ll be a huge cremation pyre in Hyde Park with a dozen flame-throwers so he knows what’s awaiting in the afterlife.
why not chuck her down a pit shaft, fitting end what?
Setting the record straight.
I didnt say I was angry or upset. I just find dancing in the streets and some of these posts disturbing and wont help the cause. I disliked Thatcherism and Im old enough to have been harmed by tory policies then and now.
Arbroath your reply time stamp is ten mins earlier than my original post, do you time travel?
Also for the record I will be voting yes.
ClochodericK is a stone! and your point about Former Naval Person, I think I would know that! Whats your point?
Am I the only one looking forward to Thursday?
No
Am I the only person who thinks ‘Former Naval” is former Norse warrior, is former Hermonie?
As for the funeral – Can’t mourn, won’t mourn.
had to turn off the news this morning, I could not stomach the endless fawning and rewriting history,
it REALLy WAS putting me off my porridge
Keef says:
16 April, 2013 at 11:42 pm
“Am I the only person who thinks ‘Former Naval” is former Norse warrior, is former Hermonie?
As for the funeral – Can’t mourn, won’t mourn.”
_____________________________________________________________________
The Rev will be on your case shortly for making unsubstantiated allegations regarding the identity of the multi monikered troll. Apparently such posts make him tired and prone to blocking people. If I don’t like a post I just ignore it, or in the case of this particular troll who you have correctly identified I just fart in their general direction.
Vote YES anyway.
My missus was watching the funeral of the old lizard so I buggered up the cable connection, she is now reading a book in the huff.
well well then, youve demonstrated neatly the paranoid and dellusional side of this site.
Iam a yes voter, actively campaign for it, involved in Yes Kirkcaldy, no Iam not Norsewarrior et al
There isnt a day goes by where I havent sent people to this site.
Typical with some of you, if one dares to have a slightly diff view then they get hounded off, nice one guys!
“Typical with some of you, if one dares to have a slightly diff view then they get hounded off, nice one guys!”
I agree, and have asked people to desist on numerous occasions. It does nobody, least of all this site, any favours. Though in fairness this time it was a question rather than a statement.
Ive used anon names here and other social media for protection but I understand Stu does know my identity from prior contact and knows my heart lies with Yes in 2014 and whilst holding diff views on many subjects I come here with no malice.
As for unionist trolls Ive destroyed a few of them, they should expect us! We dont forgive, We dont forgive.
#Anonymous
cant seem to edit my last post to We do not forgive, we do not forget! I guess typing on a Pad offshore bobbing around on a supply ship next to an oil installation doesnt help my typos!
Oh well at least Im doing my bit for the Scottish oil economy!
“Typical with some of you, if one dares to have a slightly diff view then they get hounded off, nice one guys!”
Unfortunately the kind of attacks and abuse you’ve experienced is typical for anyone who has a view of independence that differs from the SNP version, or who even slightly criticises the SNP or the yes campaign, even if its constructive criticism aimed at improving the chances of getting independence.
I and others have experienced the exact same thing – we are immediately attacked as ‘trolls’ or ‘unionists’ by these SNP acolytes. As the Rev correctly points out, such behaviour does not do this site, or our chances of getting independence, any favours.
These people just can’t seem to understand that the independence movement being a diverse organisation with many different views on independence is an advantage rather than a problem, and that it is vital that the diversity of the movement is clearly shown if we are to have a chance of winning the referendum.
Sometimes it appears that many of them care more about the SNP than they do about getting independence.
“If I don’t like a post I just ignore it, or in the case of this particular troll who you have correctly identified I just fart in their general direction.”
As for the odious homophobe ‘hen broon’, this individual is one of those who does the most damage to our chances of getting independence.
It attacks and abuses anyone who dares to even slightly criticise the SNP, it never contributes anything of any worth or any valid points or opinions, and it regularly resorts to expressing revolting homophobic views that are roundly criticised by all right-minded individuals on this site.
This individual is not representative of the independence movement and the vast majority of us wish it would crawl away and stop polluting and damaging our cause.
Norse W: Sometimes it appears that many of them care more about the SNP than they do about getting independence.
Can you name these (a list of common posters on WoS would be good)?
If making accusations you should really name those specifically involved otherwise you are tarring everyone with the same brush. That could be harmful to the independence cause.
I have voted SNP and there’s a good chance I may do so again. Are you grouping me with those you appear to have disdain for? I don’t recall ever being offensive to you and we’ve discussed various things many times.
I note that those who seem to mistrust your motives have said so and named you explicitly rather than throwing accusations at everyone who ‘does not support the SNP but supports independence’.
I’m sorry, but your post does come across as you doing the very thing that you accuse others of. Maybe that was not the intention, but that’s how it came across a bit to me.
“I have voted SNP and there’s a good chance I may do so again. Are you grouping me with those you appear to have disdain for? I don’t recall ever being offensive to you and we’ve discussed various things many times.”
Not at all, as I’ve said previously, the vast majority of SNP supporters fully recognise and accept that there are many independence supporters who don’t support the SNP and whose views on independence and how best to achieve it differ from the SNP’s version.
I’d include the likes of you in that category, I’m sure you agree that the diversity of the independence movement is one of its strengths and that it is vital to make clear how diverse the cause is in order to win the referendum.
Unfortunately there is a minority of SNP supporters who appear to support the party with an almost fanatical cult-like devotion and who immediately attack and abuse anyone who dares to criticise the party or its leader, even if that criticism is constructive and aimed at improving the chances of getting independence. They appear to believe that only the SNP’s version of independence and referendum strategy should be followed and that anyone who disagrees with either is automatically a ‘unionist’ or a ‘troll’.
As you’ve asked for names, from this site I’d include the likes of ‘hen broon’, ‘dcanmore’, ‘alexicon’ and others who’ve attacked me simply for criticising the SNP.
“Unfortunately there is a minority of SNP supporters who appear to support the party with an almost fanatical cult-like devotion and who immediately attack and abuse anyone who dares to criticise the party or its leader, even if that criticism is constructive and aimed at improving the chances of getting independence. They appear to believe that only the SNP’s version of independence and referendum strategy should be followed and that anyone who disagrees with either is automatically a ‘unionist’ or a ‘troll’. ”
not really been following the better together campaign norsy have you, if you want to find slavish devotion to party just look at Duncan Hothershall
Thanks Norsewarrior for your support. Youve said what Ive always understood that many here dont grasp, its the same on all social media sites relating to #indyref
Scotland is a diverse country, were not all left wing tree huggers. Its ok to be different isnt it? We will all vote yes in 2014 whether I agree with Trident, Nato, Gay Marriage or whatever else for that matter.
I like all of you have beliefs, value sets and opinions on all matters and whilst mostly enjoyable to debate, it will be harmful to stamp on anyone that doesnt conform to your ideas.
Im appalled at the celebrations at the death of an old lady: if I came to your mums funeral and offended your family and deceased mother Im pretty certain I’d be thumped!
Now can we all play nicely and spread the good word of our Rev. Stu.
I can be found on twitter @Anon_Sailor or in the Penny Farthing Bar kirkcaldy when Im on leave!
Norsewarrior:
“Not at all, as I’ve said previously, the vast majority of SNP supporters fully recognise and accept that there are many independence supporters who don’t support the SNP and whose views on independence and how best to achieve it differ from the SNP’s version. “
Most certainly that’s the case in my experience. If you find someone disagreeing with you in what you feel is a troll-type way, the best thing to do is just ignore them. No point get worked up; after all it’s the internet and on political forums you’ll always come across more ‘impassioned’ posts.
In the meantime, recalling our discussions on Labour vs Tory fortunes and the next UK GE, I thought you might find this of interest.
link to newstatesman.com
What lies behind Labour’s shrinking poll lead?
I’d noticed a small decline beginning and this seems to have picked up. Worth keeping an eye on. Certainly, in addition to Ed’s low popularity/competency ratings, the last comment on historical precedent is worth noting.
As the data below from YouGov’s Peter Kellner shows, no modern opposition has ever won without being at least 20 points ahead in mid-term.
Ed really needs to pull something out of the hat and soon if he’s to have a hope of winning in 2015. Seems I’m not alone in thinking this given the recent interventions along the same lines by senior Labour figures. Interesting to see how this develops anyway. Labour really need a 20 point lead by mid 2014 to start having confidence, otherwise it looks like it will be the Tories in charge once more. That would make the UK an impossible sell for Better Together as polls have shown.
Getting a wee bit fed up with the accusations on here about ‘trolls’, ‘unionists’ or whatever, it’s just defacing a really good blog site.
If you disagree, say so with reason, surely it’s about the discussion ?
My observations of the past couple of months lead me to believe that the ‘Yes’ campaign are broadening to include as many non-SNP supporters as possible, which is a wise move as the main BT tactic is to smear the SNP.
I don’t see the harm in that being reflected here.
“Getting a wee bit fed up with the accusations on here about ‘trolls’, ‘unionists’ or whatever, it’s just defacing a really good blog site.
If you disagree, say so with reason, surely it’s about the discussion ?
My observations of the past couple of months lead me to believe that the ‘Yes’ campaign are broadening to include as many non-SNP supporters as possible, which is a wise move as the main BT tactic is to smear the SNP.
I don’t see the harm in that being reflected here.”
Agree 100%. I think I’ve made clear that my patience with it is pretty much exhausted.
Indeed, S_S, but the important thing is not whether he wins in 2015, it’s whether the people voting in Scotland in 2014 think he’s likely to win.
Just a simple observation; tartanfever notes that the main BT tactic is to smear the SNP. Norsewarrior’s main (just about only) topic when posting here is anything anti-SNP or SNP supporters. The rather obvious similarity of these approaches probably goes a long way to explaining Norsewarrior’s unpopularity. It’s certainly the reason I have no time for him. Discuss the topic and all is well, derail every thread with off-topic outbursts about SNP supporters and discord ensues – job done if that happens to be your objective.