A new flag for Scotland
This is from an article in today’s edition of north-Scotland regional paper the Press & Journal about a poll they’ve just conducted among residents of Orkney and Shetland.
Flying in the face of Tavish Scott’s most recent attempts to bang on his battered old drum of how the Northern Isles might want to form their own independent nation/s if Scotland left the UK, the citizens of the two island groups delivered a crushing “No” to the notion, voting by a margin of almost 8:1 to stay part of Scotland.
Why, then, has the P&J chosen to illustrate the “No” section of its pie charts (meaning “No, we shouldn’t be separate from Scotland”) with the Union Jack of the UK, and the “Yes” section (meaning “Yes, we should be separate from Scotland”) with the Saltire? We’ve dropped them a line to ask.
I don’t understand how they managed to come to the conclusion of putting NO, in the context of this mini-vote, with the Union Jack. The mind actually boggles here.
Maybe it’s just an oversight. Maybe they’re so used to associating the Union Flag with negativity they did it without thinking…
It doesn’t matter from what angle Better Together try to peddle their line, they just don’t have the popular support in Scotland. When Alistair Darling goes on a mini-tour he is met with tumbleweed, when BT set up a stall the promotional pictures are of the organisers not the general public taking an interest. The bulk of BT donations come from outwith Scotland, and Tavish Scott’s fantasy of Shetland and Orkney as an enclave of rUK has now been effectively torpedoed. Popular grassroots support is where you have to win, if you don’t have it then forget it.
Where are there any facts supporting this poll? Were all of Northern Isles polled or was it an online one that anyone could vote on?
Earlier reports just had Orkney at 80% for Scotland.
I have some friends on Orkney who tell me that the number of folk who don’t see themselves as Scottish you can fit into a small cupboard.
The most baffling thing was there was an article somewhere (Guardian?? maybe) that hinted at Western Isles leaders were considering implications of a Scottish independence vote and where they would lie.
They should have put up the Better Together flag. You know, the white cross on a white background.
Subliminal rollocks me thinks!
The reason is the P&J is just as bad as the Scotsman.
My understanding is that the P&J poll was a telephone poll of 5oo people covering the Northern Isles, Western Isles & Highlands as well as Aberdeenshire and Aberdeen itself.
Must have caught Nigel and Nigela at home on Unst that day.
@dmw42
“They should have put up the Better Together flag. You know, the white cross on a white background.”
Yep, or maybe just a picture of Tavish Scott.
The union jack is kind of faded out in the No to being Separate to Scotland which I took to show that union jack was in background. A big No on the saltire might be misleading of a No to Scotland. Just my take, or is it like that because you had to zoom it in and its not clear…..lol
I know it means little, but 2 previously undecided (one was firm NO up to 2011) have both said to me last night they are voting Yes and see it as the only option.
We can win this thing lads!!
The NO and NO with capitals he was so opposed to go full circle is mind blowing. If he can be won over, there’s hope for Jim Murphy, Ian Davidson and so on..
o/t but while reporting good relative employment figures on Politics Scotland, they tried to spin that if the oil numbers were added in, just temporarily mind you, the figures would have looked worse. You have to admire the contortions I suppose. Scum.
Faltdubh says:
17 April, 2013 at 2:39 pm
“The NO and NO with capitals he was so opposed to go full circle is mind blowing. If he can be won over, there’s hope for Jim Murphy, Ian Davidson and so on.”
I can envisage one piece of information that would win them both over. As soon as they are told Scotland has voted Yes they will both be instant converts.
Well, well……. It appears Tavish has been handed a sore face. It doesn’t really matter what flag they dress it up in, the question was quite clear and unequivocal: Should Orkney/Shetland be independent countries separate from Scotland? I’d say the answer is what’s known as a ‘smackdown’.
@Chic
I think you’ll find under those circumstances, it was their idea all along.
Couldn’t get the full article, just the first couple of paragraphs, but it does say this:
‘An exclusive poll commissioned by the Press and Journal showed that 82% thought the current arrangements should be maintained.’
So as current arrangements are as part of Scotland in the UK, then maybe they are right to use the Union Flag ?
The whole thing seems to slightly contradict itself, the headline mentions remaining part of Scotland, but the bit I’ve highlighted could be taken as meaning the UK.
Ouch Tavish and thrice Ouch.
Talk about being slapped hard with a kipper…
Where’s Handandshrimp? He’s from Orkney I think.
Anyone asked Tavish what he thinks?
“there was an article somewhere (Guardian?? maybe) that hinted at Western Isles leaders were considering implications of a Scottish independence vote and where they would lie.”
I’m sure they are discussing their options, and the implications of an independence vote: they’d be daft not to. I’m also sure there will be many people in Orkney & Shetland who support devolution and more localised control. If there is a constitutional change to the UK as big as Scottish independence, that would be the time to be going to Holyrood and discussing terms, and perhaps also discussing terms with Westminster. If Westminster offer a deal they can’t refuse to vote “NO” then perhaps they can be played off against Holyrood.
But at the end of the day, the idea a large number would want to stop being part of Scotland and stay part of the UK – which is Better Together’s fond hope – is laughable. I notice that precise BT option wasn’t even offered in this poll. But that’s what many on those pages genuinely believe: that Scotland could go independent but be stuffed by Orkney and Shetland staying with the UK so they keep all the oil. Bonkers, given there is no UK legal system, NHS, education system etc. They would be opting to become English. As I say, not even an option offered in the poll, unless it was an polled zero.
I agree, Tartanfever, the whole thing is a bit ambiguous. The line Tavish is trying to peddle is that the Isles are happy little Brits now and wouldn’t dream of leaving, but they hate Scotland so much they’ll vote to stay part of England if Scotland votes for independence.
That’s not at all clear in the article as far as I can see,
Of course, no doubt the way this will be spun by BT is “80% of Orkney & Shetlanders don’t want independence”. Probably why the union jack is there on the NO
Tavish may be sharing the bunker with Johann at the moment and be unavailable for comment.
The BBC cleared this issue up recently when they interviewed a ‘teacher’ – completely selected at random, of course – in Orkney. When asked by GMS if he thought independence for the Northern Isles was a good idea he replied ‘I don’t know about that, but Scottish independence is a bad thing’.
It’s that kind of journalism what makes the BBC what it is.
So, just how big was the sample size when they failed to contact ANY males between the ages of 25 – 36…?
WTF….???!!
If the circulation of the P&J starts to decline,will they wonder why?
Training Day-
GMS also managed to find a Scot in London this morning who thought that Thatcher was wonderful. He even went down just for the funeral.
“Should Orkney/Shetland be separate countries, independent from Scotland?” would never have made it past the Electoral Commission/Better Together scrutineers because it’s clearly too misleading & confusing.
Ye, see, most folks, according to Flipper Darling can’t really think for themselves so they need the guiding hand of the curators of the old British State to make the difficult decisions & choices on their behalf. Toffs in London know best.
Now doff yer hats to the Great British Establishment, its gloriously condescending broadcaster of British propaganda, the BBC & revel in yer collective, shared history when you recall the British bulldog spirit that saw off the Krauts in ’45 & cocked a snoop at those foreigners we defeated at the Battle of Waterloo.
@John H
Was it Tony Blair?
The “Yes” part has the Saltire…why? :-\
Looks a lot like a saltire in the background of the Yes section of the chart as well, so assumption would be that they’ve just used the template they had lying around for the over-riding indy debate.
“The “Yes” part has the Saltire…why?”
Perhaps they’ve got a template for their polls on the independence referendum with ‘no’ being the union flag and ‘yes’ being the saltire and they couldn’t be bothered, or forgot, to change it for this poll?
alexicon says:
17 April, 2013 at 2:36 pm
My understanding is that the P&J poll was a telephone poll of 5oo people covering the Northern Isles, Western Isles & Highlands as well as Aberdeenshire and Aberdeen itself.
Must have caught Nigel and Nigela at home on Unst that day.
I was referring to the Independence poll that the P&J run on Monday.
The mighty Tavish Scott is it? In 2007 he polled 6,531 votes for the whole of Shetland which has 17,500 eligible to vote. In 2011 that dropped down to 4,462. He managed to lose almost a third of his mightily meagre total; almost 1100 voters dropped him.
So here we have a guy desperate for the ermine cloak and all the expenses going, who would sell his granny for it, on the backs of only 4,462 voters and getting the full MSP salary package, pension rights and party leadership bonus, plus first class travel and expenses.
No wonder he’s got a smirk about him. And that’s with 4,462 voters in total. Lucky Jim eh?
Macart says:
17 April, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Tavish may be sharing the bunker with Johann at the moment and be unavailable for comment.
Oh that is revolting, even the thought of Tavish and Lamutt hiding in the same room.
@Allan Jackson
Yer right that’s quite a disturbing picture when you dwell on it.
Separate bunkers! Independence for Tavish.
Deliberate obfuscation? shit journalism? Both? There is a subliminal anti-independence slant here which could only be corrected with a photo of Tavish’s tripping face. I call for a national manhunt….
Re
“Training Day says:
17 April, 2013 at 3:24 pm
The BBC cleared this issue up recently when they interviewed a ‘teacher’ – completely selected at random, of course – in Orkney”. Just a chance interview, no doubt
That Orcadian is Cameron Stout, late of Stars in your Eyes, or something.
He is the the bitter together man for the islands. So I read on their website.
O/T Saturday, after the demo in George Square. Going home, got on bus with my card. Driver says, where did you get that. I thought he meant my tammie in my left hand. No, he says, the YES badge on your jacket. From the SNP I said, but you can have it, so took it off, handed it over. Great.
Yon union flag is awfy peely wally is it no?
Should also have said, bitter together also have the Islands declaring UDI in an article on their site. Left a note saying , do they reealy believe that pish.
Seriously, do they, I wonder?
If anyone needs reminding of what sewer rats the Better together mob are ,then this malicious mischief to stir up sectional hate between Scots is just typical divide and rule schtick they used in Ireland and everywhere else in the’Empire’. Shetland, Orkney, the Western Isles…all are Scottish, christ even DNA samples on Shetland proved that..but so fucking what? We’re all mongrels of Pictish,Scottish,Irish,Norse and yes English blood and even further away..if you read Alistair Moffat ..we all came from Africa didn’t we?. But 700 years of history makes us who we are now, and no amount of crass divide and rule should be allowed to be given any creedence.
I have always reckoned the Orkney/Shetland ploy a trojan horse and hostage to fortune Borders, if needs be come negotiations.
Thoughts?
Having bought the P&J every day for oh 25 plus years I can say it is because they have turned into a complete unionist mouthpiece, their poll was embalzoned across the front page on Monday, a whole five hundred people were polled. Woop de eff doo!
Every story is from a unionist perspective, SNP accused, SNP forced to defend, Richard Baker claims etc etc, I sometimes for a laugh actually count the anti SNP stories and headlines, Voice of the North my erse….
Tavish Scott – a revealing surname for northern isles stock.
Find a question which will be answered with an emphatic NO .. Let’s see: ‘Are you a journalist and willing sell your country for a pat on the head from a London Tory?’ NO: 95% YES: 3% Don’t know: 2%
Now use the union jack for the NO part of the pie and the blue of the Saltire for the YES part of the pie. Voilà! Now crawl on all fours into your editor’s office and get yourself a well deserved pat on the head. Maybe a biscuit and bowl of water.
Anybody know where the patrician Mr. Tavish was educated.
He claims Shetland, I think, but with an accent like his, ah hae ma douts.
Does it matter a whit where he was educated he’s like any other opportunistic dumpling that we can well do without. Proudly representing Shetland with a whole bunch of four thousand and some votes, doesn’t make him anything like a heavy weight, more like a red-faced chancer. He should be ashamed to take the wages.
So another “NO campaign” scare story bites the dust, big surprise, but never mind the “NO’s” have plenty of time to make more up and we will just have to keep knocking them down.
“Peter” you’re right about the P&J it always had unionist leanings but the last year and a half its really went down the tubes with its bia’s. I used to take it everyday but now it would be lucky to be bought once a week and thats only for the supplement.
Vote YES to keep Tavish Scotts arse out of the House of Lords.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
I wonder if Tavish will turn up at FMQ today, instead of his sneering, I guess it will be he, who will be the object of fun if he does appear at all.
Now, that WILL make me smile!
@Les Wilson
I was wondering that myself. He’s made a great deal of this issue in the daily titles of recent times, especially the Guardian. I’d say the result above should put his gas on a peep at FMQs for the foreseeable future.
The North Britsman had a poll, which was promptly removed, asking, should oil rich Orkney and Shetland have special treatment?
Orkney doesnt have any oil whatsoever and how much sea limit would Shetland receive if it did want to be part of England? It would not be 200 miles, as that would take them to Bergen and Aberdeen, a 12 mile limit would be more probable, which would exclude any oil, even 50 miles would only leave one field.
Having lived in Shetland, I know that most people have the attitude that we came to the union with Scotland, we will leave with Scotland and what happens after that is for us to decide.
The Shetlanders are generally very canny and clever people, and they know that their heritage is built around the Picts and the Vikings. Not too different from the rest of Scotland.
Should have mentioned that I got a reply to my email about this a couple of days ago:
“Thank you for your e-mail.
You make a valid point, of course, and thank you for that.
Orkney/Shetland were asked a question within a question, with the main question being to establish people’s views on the UK-Scotland independence issue. Therefore, the Union Flag would not look out of place when judged in the overall context of what was driving this survey.
Thanks again for your valid contribution.
Yours sincerely,
David Knight
Deputy Editor “
That’s the Depressing Journal for you; firmly in MSM and abandoning its N-E readership. No longer have it delivered.
I saw that in the Herald this morning and posted this comment:
“I’ve become ‘warned’ out. If there are hard facts then the ‘warners’ should give them. Otherwise it is treating us as idiots, who can’t think for ourselves or who are incapbable children who can’t resolve issues or plan a way forward.
The Greenland/Denmark analogy is preposterous. Greenland is 1800 miles from Denmark and has never been in recognised territorial waters of Denmark. Scandanavians arrived there in the 10th Century, and there had been Inuits there, off and on, for 2500years.
Orkney and Shetland have been settled by peoples from what is now Scotland for about 6000 years, all the archaeology remains show the development. They are within the recognised maritime boundaries of present day Scotland: recognised by international law, also geologically connected, the furthest point being 180miles away.. The Norwegian connection is smokescreen.
Sir John Elvidge doesn’t appear to know his history or about international law.
The biggest source of devision is the constant stream of unsubstantiated, ill-informed warnings.”
I don’t doubt the conclusion.
But poll says the couldn’t contact any 26-35 year olds! LOL! Where have they gone? I think we should be told!