And you can’t say that every day.
These are paragraphs from a statement the Edinburgh-born MP made today:
“My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change.
If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.
But our membership of the* Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.
The ability to choose who governs us, and the freedom to change laws we do not like, were secured for us in the past by radicals and liberals who took power from unaccountable elites and placed it in the hands of the people.
But by leaving* we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative.
We can show leadership. Like the Americans who declared their independence and never looked back, we can become an exemplar of what an inclusive, open and innovative democracy can achieve.
Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule? This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity* to leave* and embrace a better future.”
We can’t find anything to dispute in there. When the second Scottish independence referendum comes round (which suddenly looks like it might be rather sooner than we were anticipating), we’ll welcome the Justice Secretary’s support enthusiastically.
.
[DISCLAIMER: where * appears in the text above we may have edited one or two words out, which may alter the context of the quotes in a moderately important way.]
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There’s going to be a ton of these statements to choose from, and a Niagara waterfall of irony.
Wear your waterproof plastics and irony helmets.
Yet again, a complete lack of self-awareness, or should it be a complete disdain of Scotland, from a Westminster MP.
Still, it’s a pretty good speech so worth bookmarking and using in indyref2.
So good of the Tories in the EU referendum to rehearse and make the cases for Scotexit ahead of our 2nd Scottish Referendum. What will poor Ruthie do now?
Out of the mouths of knaves…
You are going to have such an easy few months, just digging out old statements and changing the names!
I suppose you’ve got to laugh, but in reality it makes me sick.
Don’t out on that support when the elites being toppled number him in their midst. Humans have hemoglobin in the blood tories have hypocrisy.
Bear in mind this is the guy who said his identity would be shattered with a yes vote. Pure British nationalism.
So, at long last they openly admit it….
Aye the hypocrisy is writ large in that statement. Someone should point out that ‘pooling and sharing’ within the EU makes us all stronger.
Hopefully this EU referendum will open some eyes because to me, it just looks like the same old tired arguments which they deployed during our Indy referendum. Roll on an England-supported Brexit then we can get shot of these Tories – not least Cameron who seems to have staked his political future on an ‘In’ vote.
I’ve face-palmed my way through quite a few politician’s views over the coming EU referendum..
I feel disconnected from the rhetoric, it all sounds too familiar. I can’t be the only one.
Need to get this out when the 2nd indy ref comes along. Who says cringing brit unionists like ex Scot Gove dont do irony!
SNP X2
POP CORN! POP CORN! GET YOUR POP CORN HERE! THREE FOR PRICE OF TWO! POP CORN!!
Just been having a wee scroll through the on line newspapers and their comments sections.
And so it starts!!
Oh yes, oh yes yes yes!!
This is going to be soooooooo good!!
too small, too weak, too powerless to make a success of self rule.
TOO-FACED.
Don’t do as I do, do as I say! ENGERLANDS MOTTO. or Ruthie will unleash her tanks.
Keep that speech for indy 2, and always throw it in their faces. Will scotlands brexit vote be counted separately( and the sg should bloody well demand it is) because they will lose it in englands leave vote, if not.
Its a blue toryboy miracle. Have to be careful with this raging hypocrite though. He got a free private education at Gordon’s in Aberdeen, paid for by the sucka tax payer, then he scraps free uni and college, in England. As we all know, red/blue toryboy world’s determined to do the same to Scots kids too.
Red and blue tory counter jumping is a persistent toryboy er, thing.
I suspect the laws he has in mind are the Human Rights Act, employment law and regulation of the City of London. Apart from that – fine.
Haha, be like America.
More wars, armed police, rampant racism, white supremacy.
The Donald!!!
Incredible. Freedom come all ye! Apart from viewers in Scotland. We are unique and can’t ever be independent.
The 23Rd of June will be Cameron’s swan song. Scotland will vote stay and England go. Never underestimate the arrogance of the English nation in believing they can run the world on their own. I don’t think it will be close down there. There is an undercurrent of anti foreigner down there and always has been.
Michael Gove:–Scotland’s Champion.
SNPx2
There is a nagging worry in the back of my mind about the EU ref.
If the result is the uk votes to STAY IN, we surely lose a huge referendum ‘trigger’, and one which a lot of importance has been placed on ?
There are clearly lots of other justifications for a 2nd referendum for independence, most of which are much more important than the EU result, but with this being such a high profile ‘trigger’ i worry we could lose a fair chunk of momentum if we are indeed NOT dragged out against our collective Scottish will.
Sure is going to get pretty interesting pretty quickly though !
But…..but……but. . I’m away to get drunk
Watching athletics from Glasgow. Not one Scottish presenter. And the BBC think we are narrow minded and insular for asking for some Scottish control of broadcasting. It’s like watching my nation from afar.
Indyref2 will be even fun tban 2014
If i lived back home, i would vote to remain in the eu. But i live in england along with other members of my family, and although we couldnt vote in the referendum, we will get our say on an indy vote now by voting to leave the eu. Bring on indy 2.
Wrote a blog post on Scotland’s voice being silenced by Cameron’s decision for EU Referendum in June:
link to daisycollinsblog.wordpress.com
@geeo.
There may be a good argument here for the SNP to take a vociferous stance for remain.
This may just have a backlash effect on the English electorate with any luck.
They do not like the SNP telling THEM what to do.
Just to clarify my comments above, i believe there WILL be an English ‘leave’ vote and a Scottish ‘stay’ vote, it is just a wee voice in me urging caution.
Pity the wee maggot didn’t want, lied and fought against the same for the country of his birth.
Now what does that make the wee fella ?
Micky Gove fae Eberdeen,do you know what you are to Scotland and it’s people ?
Jings well would you adam and eve it a Tory talking sense,though i have a sneaky suspicion what he actually means is England.
Oh the irony poor little England not getting to run its own country and having politicians from another country telling them what to do.
The mans a fud but still thanks for the ammo you halfwit we will fire it right back at you during indyref2.
Like that thinking there Bob Mack, campaign slogan could look like this…
“Fed up with Scotland taking all your hard earned money” ?
“Vote LEAVE and you also get rid of Scotland”
Landslide ?
Surely that line on the Americans taking their independence, is agreement we should also take ours from the Redcoats?
If this is the level of hypocrisy and lack of self awareness a private education brings, no wonder the country is f””ked.
Gove gives Scottish Indy an open goal.
I hope Sturgeon is taking notes for later when Indy 2 comes round. He just made the case for us.
PS:
The famous five.
link to archive.is
Boris? He has swithered too long now and folk now realise it’s all about him, not what he thinks is best for his London, his party or England.
Ironic, isn’t it.
David Cameron in Alex Salmond’s pocket.
Ive lived down here for over 40 yrs, london, wolverhampton, portsmouth, blackpool etc.etc. and roughly 7 out of 10 english people i speak to favour a brexit vote. In fact im so confident im away to have a decent wager at the bookies.
Also, it should be interesting to see which way our chums at the noble, honest, impartial, unbiased, apolitical UKOK Treasury decide who they are going to work for this time.
Everyone knows they lied and cheated their way through Scotland’s referendum but toryboys are toryboys and at least half wont appreciate delights of UKOK democracy like Sir Nicholas Macpherson, Permanent Secretary to the Treasury, again breaching the “Civil Service Code” when he BetterTogethered his personal views and political VOTE NO or else stuff, like Scotland sharing sterling, having no pensions, NOT Scots oil is a Scotch burden, UK jewel in the crown etc.
Whitehall will be all a quiver. And will they all be handing out their awards for impartial neutrality this November, like the one in 2014?
link to civilserviceworld.com
“We all had something in common, we’re trying to stay in/get out of the EU here, and it came so close. We just kept it by the skin of our teeth. I actually cried when the result came in. After 10 years in the civil service, my proudest moment is tonight and receiving this award.”
He added: “As civil servants you don’t get involved in politics. For the first time in my life, suddenly we’re part of a political campaign. We were doing everything from the analysis, to the advertising, to the communications. I just felt a massive sense of being part of the operation. This being recognised [at the Civil Service Awards], makes me feel just incredibly proud.”
Cochrane said: “we’ve learned that it is possible for civil servants to work on things that are inherently political and quite difficult, and you’re very close to the line of what is appropriate, but it’s possible to find your way through and to make a difference.”
And Doyle added: “This award is not just for the Treasury, it’s for all the hard work that was done by all government departments on the Brexit agenda.”
It would funny, if it wasn’t so freakin UKOK corrupt. Should be fun watching toryboy world Farage style rage, if same award winning impartial and unbiased UKOK civil servants decide the UK is not Brexiting.
Gits.
The scenario could look something like this.
Brexit occurs which I think it will.
Scotland wants to ask the people about remaining in the UK under those conditions
Cameron denies a referendum saying Scotland was extinguished under Union
Nicola goes ahead with referendum or appeals to EU.
Has Cameron kept power over law regarding legal decisions affecting UK? I. E sovereignty
Dissolution of Holywood?
What next?
@ michael diamond 2.28
That’s my experience too.
Have we heard from Boris yet. Divided loyalties big-time there.
He wants to pick the winner.
If he goes In and they win, he’ll have a case for PM.
If he goes Out and they win, same deal.
If he gets it wrong, he’s toast.
He’ll need to be very persuasive if he picks In and wants the south to stay In. Him, Dave and the Queen. The three Amistays.
Well let’s hope activists don’t get campaign fatigue. First the Holyrood campaign, then EU referendum which I predict will be out – only 53% of England voters need to vote out for the votes of Scotland, Wales and Norn Ireland to mean hee haw.
Then Indy ref 2 which tbf is the only one I’ll be digging out my campaign shoes for!
Boris Johnson not invited to David Cameron’s EU Cabinet meeting
link to archive.is
OT: Footie beckons…
Reconsidering my choice of supermarkets now but it’s getting more limited. Glimpsed the ‘Scotland Champion’ this morning as I got The National.
Front page spread for Aldi in the Record.
link to aldi.co.uk
When we become Independent how much rent should we charge Nato, America and England for allowing them access to the north for their fear of Russia and of course Putin will be wanting to start buying fish again, happy to oblige Vlad old son heh heh heh
Location x x
SNPx2
I’m not confident that there will be an Out vote, the bookies certainly don’t think so at least at the moment.
Our old friend Prof. Curtice has been conducting a poll of polls since October last year and the vote to leave has yet to exceed 50%. link to whatukthinks.org
Once campaigning starts in earnest will Camerons economic Project Fear defeat fear of migrants?
Who knows? Things currently are pretty much hanging in the balance.
Re. Brexit/Indy2
The German newspapers and TV commentators are more relieved than anything that the latest bout of “English” exeptionlism is over.
It was just a show, a spectacle for the domestic market to show that “David” is a big, hard man in Europe and when he “demands” changes then it’s for your own good.
Immigration and benifits were the only real key points he wanted.
Details are still coming out but it looks like that from 2020, all EU migrants will get the same level of benifits that they are eligible to in their home country and not the higher possible benifits of the guest country.
Everything else was just more exemptions from the long list of exemptions that they already enjoy.
All part of the year long, slow-motion exit from the EU.
If the UK does vote to leave I think a lot of folk on the Continent won’t mind at all.
——————
Scotland and a potential Indy2 was mentioned quite a lot and though I might be wrong, the feeling I got was that Scotland would get a much better press than the first time around.
The English should just finally bugger off and we’ll give the Scots a hearty welcome.
If UK polls show Brexit win, its going to be interesting watching rats jump Cameron’s ship but have they cooked up another historic EUOK The Vow shyste? There’s probably not a Crash Gordon equivalent important intervention, they can wheel to EUOK terrorise England the way he did in Scotland.
“I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change.”
Who are these, “WE”, you speak of Mr Gove”?
“If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.”
Indeed Mr Gove, but why only at election time and to which members of which public do you refer?
Strangely I had replied to Petra on the previous thread and mentioned the need for a right to recall elected to office members and to deselect them.
Furthermore, there can be no true democracy in the United Kingdom while the only two constituent parts of it hold such greatly disparate political aims.
The Engerlish will bottle it just the same as the too feart Jocks. ENGERLAND will be exposed as a parasite which neads the EU & USA to keep it afloat, and SCOTTISH oil to pay its bills. Aye a parasite with a big mouth.
They will stay just to lead the gormless furriners. And cause Uncle Sam telt them.
@handclapping says: 20 February, 2016 at 1:46 pm:
” … What will poor Ruthie do now?”
Poor Ruthie? Where did you get that strange idea?
They are totally unable to see the irony, and the hypocrisy.
The man is spot on, when applied as the Rev has done to the Scotland / UK Union.
Tory separatists,who would have thought it?
EU membership – TTIP – ISDS (‘Investor-state dispute settlement’). Open to persuasion, but tbh because of this I’m not at the moment persuaded that ‘in’ is a good idea.
*changed one or two words??? You changed more than just one or two! You deleted whole paragraphs. Please don’t end up doing what the rest of the media do and bending words to make it appear differently.
“*changed one or two words??? You changed more than just one or two! You deleted whole paragraphs. Please don’t end up doing what the rest of the media do and bending words to make it appear differently.”
Sigh. Pay attention. It says “paragraphs from”. It’s satirical irony, and it’s not pretending to be the whole thing. The text is a link to the full unedited original for anyone who wants to see it.
Itchybuscuit @ 1:54
“Hopefully this EU referendum will open some eyes because to me, it just looks like the same old tired arguments which they deployed during our Indy referendum.”
Yep, and when the Stay in Vote is announced perhaps the exit voters will realise that they’ve been trying to fight against Westminster, Whitehall, big business the BBC the MSM and possibly even Brenda, maybe they’ll come to the conclusions we did and act accordingly.
They’ve all been given their part to play in this farce, we can only watch and be reminded of what was ranged against us in Indyref 1
Oh that’s brilliant!
And without a hint of irony too.
msean says:
“Tory separatists,who would have thought it?”
On one level they are Separatists, on another Imperialists.
Still, we need to understand, normal rules don’t apply to those who are Special!
@heedtracker 3.06
and if Dave does manage to convince the South/England to Remain, what will we witness in the street outside No 10 at dawn on the following morn this time.
Tumbrils laden with Tory Cabinet Ministers as he pronounces: “BRUSSELS VOTES for ENGLISH LAWS!”:
Cameron doesn’t need to worry he has control of the postal vote.
Many in the SNP hope that a REF 2 will be triggered by BREXIT. But apart from the uncertain prospect that the English majority vote will be to leave the EU…is there any guarantee that the votes for each constituent country within the UK will be counted separately?
Looking at the massive fraud with the postal vote in our REF, what’s to stop the UK Gov.covering up national differences?
Will the vote be by parliamentary constituencies, does any one know?
@ Papadox
I think they might struggle to reverse all the lies,hatred and bile they have been pumping into the minds of the English electorate about anything not “British”.
By breeding xenophobia through their colonial press they have become their own enemy,if anything it will be interesting to see them try to reverse that,popcorn anybody lol
ot Nice blog Daisy please keep us wingers informed of your posts
But as he makes that statement, is he so rabidly arrogant, not to consider, just for a moment, that what he is stating, could not just conceivably be a statement, which any leading campaigner for Scottish independence could have made word for word ?.
Or is it in his Unionist view, that while he considers this to be a viable argument for the UK ‘s exit from the EU, it could never, as far as he is concerned, be Scotland’s right to think identically, as a viable argument for exit from this so called United Kingdome ?.
Yes, its been quite weird to hear the same phrases recycled from our Indyref. I had to switch off today, the amount of recycled guff being broadcast is unbelievable. And it all seems a storm in a teacup to me. What is the problem they have with Europe?
How would they like it if they had the chance to lend all their sovereignty to Brussels, hand over all revenues, get a block grant in return (calculated by Brussels), send a small group of MEPs to Strasbourg to be comprehensively out-voted, ignored, sneered at, smeared and vilified, while Strasbourg and Brussels controlled UK foreign policy, defence, the economy, energy policy, welfare, and most taxation?
Now that’s what I call something to get upset about
Lots of wiggle room for Cameron.
Scottish Indy ref 4,285,323 registered voters, 789,024 registered for postal vote.
Argyll postal vote return a “world record” 94%
Come on Dave you can be a Record Breaker go for 99% its doable.
M, I and 5 others can help.
The word HYPOCRIT springs to mind in relation to Gove.
However and it is a big but; I look forward to the stay in EU campaign telling the English that they are too wee and too poor and too stupid to leave the EU. I look forward to the twa faced anti Scottish CBI telling the English that Ingerland just cant get by without all those hard working and educated and tall and “broad shouldered” migrants. How long before they also threaten Ingerlish pensions and to relocate their HQs and jobs to the Continent?
The deal wont be worth the paper it is written on any more than the Vow was. English Votes for EU Laws just isn’t going to cut it, The Johnny Foreigners have shown this week that they aren’t as easy to push around as the Imperial broad shouldered Brits are trying to tell us through the pro EU BBC.
I wonder how long it will be before they stop pumping out the message that the Scots will likely vote to stay in the EU since the 55% are uhmm such great Unionists.
With a bit of luck the Tory Outs will introduce rules on civil service neutrality and habitual residency rules for voting in referenda that will be useful in Indy 2
It will be interesting to see how the State and Corporate media line up here.
So far the EBC has been bigging Cameron’s might endeavours against Jonny Foreigner – no mention of the abandonment of substantial EU reform we all heard about in the run up the the Westmonster elections.
I’d say the BBC is lining up for ‘Remain’ campaign
“People we choose and who we can throw our”
Well said Mr Gove
… There’s the door. Don’t let it hit you on the arse on yer way oot!
Also noticed that the monstering of ‘leave’ campaigners is well underway – Gove was getting it on EBC R4 this morning
Odd to find oneself cheering on your worst enemies
“D’oh!”…. in my best Homer J Simpson voice.
Was tweeting watching Question Time on Thursday about the irony of comments about “controlling your own destiny” etc.
Will be a fascinating few months watching them rerun our scripts whilst painting themselves into a very tight little corner. Shared with Gorgeous George & Farage too.
Bring it on!
England is so insular half of them probably won’t even vote and the only ones who care probably will vote out
I don’t believe they are genetically programmed to make the right decisions (Tory Government) on a minority of the vote
(sarcasm)
The amount of Politician telly time given over to this will just contribute to addle English thinking, plus it’s right at the start of (we were on holiday time) so couldn’t manage to vote
It’s a shambles of bad timing for everybody except Scotland the SNP vote will be rock solid no matter what, it’s the rest who will be disadvantaged because telly and print will be all EU
I’M JOHN McKAY EU EU EU Really loud every night
Over on the other side with mis reporting S…..d they won’t know which way to turn
FM on Marr tomorrow she should be doing some interesting navigating on this, Cameron a Diddy but EU good, Scotlands on it’s bike to Freedom, EVEL Parliament
Who’d be a politician eh?
BBC will do whatever Cameron tells them to support. I think the difference between this and indi is fundamental. The UK is a sovereign nation already. They are merely talking about leaving a formal agreement with the EU. Scotland wanted it’s sovereignty back and still does.
There are no similarities with out and indi. Scotland wanted freedom from WM rule. Brussels does not rule London and never did. This is about England forming a shell on its back and saying to the world they are an inward looking nation.
DerekM 3.56
I agree. It will take quite a lot to reverse the media’s years old messages of slagging off the EU, as nothing more than busybodies interfering with our bananas and sausages!
That view is definitely reflected on social media, very few have a positive view, and then throw the refugee issue into that.
How many times have we all commented on the rabid rejection of either economic migrants, or refugees, on Question Time?
Watching Sky running all the polls taken thus far, and the Out response consistently around 40%, so that is a pretty solid base to work from, that can only have been possible with the constant denigration of the EU.
Over the next few days, academics etc. will soon demolish Porkmeister’s empty rhetoric on what he has allegedly brought back, to make everyone feel spesh.
All pig worrier Dave has to do, is tell the Saff East whingers that the chunnel will close, so no more wee half hour jollies to buy cheap plonk in France, and Tristran will not be able to have his wee couple of hours drive to the Alps at the weekend.
No more Euro millions, and when Scotland and the rest of Europe tells them to F. OFF wee can sit back, laugh, and watch them bathe in their own excrement.
Indy Ref2, bring it on.
SNPx Tout.
Every word, stolen from the gaffer.
The real irony ( ain’t the Yoon argument full of it ) here is that Gove would not even relate ( or realise ) the terminology he uses in his argument to leave EU as a relevant argument for Scotland being independent from UK.
The arrogance of them . Britannia rules the waves translated as England decides.
Leave UK they said ( in Indy referendeum ) and no guarantee of Scotland being allowed back in as member in EU…how is that going now that some of them want us to LEAVE EU ???
Tis indeed going to be extremely IRONIC that the very arguments they will use for and against staying or leaving EU will resonate as familiar with those of us who were on the RIGHT side in the Independence referendum.
The yoons clutch onto a weak and incomparable argument that we seek independence from the UK but not from Brussels as though this very reasoning challenges the concept of Scotland being independent from UK. Perhaps we choose to be part of something we trust rather than something which is blatantly contemptuous of Scotland within this UK, and which obviously only favours one country (England) , their larger population dominates us both politically and culturally.
Perhaps some in Scotland do not want to be seen as xenophobic towards other European countries and prefers to be European rather than British. It would also be so much better being part of the EU minus the baggage of both oppressive Blue and Red Tory Goverments who are themselves not averse to imposing their unwanted laws and authority upon Scotland.
We , unfortunately, have tried , and some have even trusted being ruled by Westminster , and see where that has got us.
The question is who do YOU trust..more rules and power imposed upon us from Westminster or do you want to be part of a united Europe ‘pooling and sharing’ ?
Feckin know who my money is on.
Reporting Shortbread had disgraced Labour diddler Nigel Griffiths on before Nicola on the subject of Europe! Nuff said!
PM Gove will have to swallow his words, although he will big up his birth place no doubt.
@DerekM
Thank you – I will!
I remember when Scotland was special too.Look how that worked out.
Great blog, Daisy, great posts!
Many have overlooked one thing. Won’t this whole thing play out like the Scottish indyref1? The polls are quite close at the moment and there will be loads of project fear and biased BBC broadcasts frightening us that “the banks will leave” and without the City we won’t have any pensions and other guff to prod Middle England (which believes anything it is told) to vote the right way.
But what happens after the 55% STAY vote is confirmed? Will it not be the same Phyrric vistory as BT had in Scotland? Will we not see half of the Tory Party leave to join UKOK and form the next right-wing government led by BoJo in 2020?
The festering sores over Europe will not be patched over by this ridiculous “agreement” secured by Porky Boy. It is all one big smokescreen — else why on earth would the rest of the EU agree so rapidly?
There seems to be exact parallels with Indyref1 and I do not think that is such a good thing for England in the long-run. Contrary to the Unionist propaganda, I wish our English neighbours well. We need a prosperous, friendly country to the south when we are independent and running our own affairs.
I sometimes think that Dave was too clever on the morning of 19 September 2014. I think things very often veer from good to bad and bad to good. I wonder if Dave will end up having the queen yowl like a tom-cat down the line to him? * Whatever the case, it is never healthy to play with people’s lives, stir up xenophobia, mislead people… and usually does not end well in the long run.
* Alex Salmond says the queen told him this was not true. What is it with Dave and his animal obsession?
I see that Theresa Villiers is voting for out. That won’t go down to well in her bailliewick of Northern Ireland.
Their arrogance will hopefully be their undoing as more and more soft no’s and undecideds see them for what they truly are. They give no second thought to Scotland or the Scots.
@Daisy – really enjoyed reading your blog and it’s so good to see our young folk stand up for Scotland. I liked your blog on what switched you on to the situation and have put a link on as I think us older ones should read it…
link to daisycollinsblog.wordpress.com
@Bill McDermott
Not too sure about that Bill, at least one section of NI politicians will be voting for Out.
link to belfasttelegraph.co.uk
I to am enjoying the delicious irony of the Better Together types suddenly complaining of Project Fear and espousing the joys of self determination.
That said, in 75 days we go to the polls in Scotland and as far I am concerned Europe is a side show until then. Let us secure a strong Scottish Government first then turn our attention to Brexit and the ramifications of that thereafter.
SNP x2
My perfect result in the ref.
The rest of the UK vote narrowly to leave and we(Scotland) vote overwhelmingly to stay in, resulting in the UK narrowly winning a stay in majority.
After all we’re better together! LOL
Spitting nails?
This a first class article, but still very much a side issue at this moment in time, as reflected in the following quote from ‘The Economist’
‘If politicians fail to act now, while they still have time, a full blown crisis in markets will force action upon them (Central Banks)’
The world economy is about to implode. This is what will determine Scotland’s immediate future
Much of this boils down to the English public school elite refusing to be “told what to do” by anyone. ( except of course the USA).
Had the EEC/EU been based in London and not Brussels, this debate wouldn’t be happening.
Fascinating blog Daisy.
@john jones 5:37pm
“My perfect result in the ref.
The rest of the UK vote narrowly to leave and we(Scotland) vote overwhelmingly to stay in, resulting in the UK narrowly winning a stay in majority.”
Would this trigger Indyref2? I don’t think so. It would be the worst result.
Scotland would have what it voted for. What then would be the reason for a referendum?
I want Independence more than anything.
The best result is rUK votes out, Scotland votes in & we’re pulled out of the EU.
This triggers a referendum then Scotland becomes Independent.
The EU will want an Independent Scotland.
shame on you for taking it out of context
Daisy , read your blog….enjoyed it very much.
Well written .
Another one to add to my list of must reads.
Keep it up , need young people to be actively engaged in what seems like an never ending fight for our freedom.
Have fabby dabby evening.
Well spotted. Perhaps a fake YES site should be set up with quotes from obvious
hypocritessupporters of Independence, made up of such quotes.OT
Closed article in the Herald got me thinking, you can’t get sued for statements you make about someone else, but the whole world would know what you were talking about. Don’t understand twitter but perhaps someone could set up a hashtag #NatalieMcGarryIs which wouldn’t mention anyone else by name.
Been thinking of a few, and my favourite so far are:
“Young”
“Not an extortionist”
“Not someone who sheds their skin every year”
“Not someone surrounded by sycophantic lickspittle journalists”
So Cameron goes to the EU to ask them to listen, compromise to make the United Kingdom the “Special ones”.
The three political leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all write to him to avoid 23rd June so not to clash with our local government democracy and he totally ignores them.
They maybe should have asked for an English breakfast, English lunch or English dinner for some dialogue and compromise.
Theresa Villiers,NI Secretary of state, TUV and DUP confirm they will campaign for UK to leave EU in referendum – the Ultra-Unionists in NI are aligning themselves with the most right-wing Tories. The other Unionist party (Ulster Unionists) have not yet said what they are going to do.
Sinn Fein and the SDLP are campaigning for IN
I see a big, big, conflict of interest for Ms Villiers as she is the only secretary of state to deviate from the government line – in the only part of the UK that risks having a land boundary re-instated with an EU country (Eire).
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
@Dandy Dons 1903 says: 20 February, 2016 at 1:58 pm:
… Who says cringing brit unionists like ex Scot Gove dont do irony!”
For starters, Dandy Dons, I do.
Hypocrites like Gove don’t, intentionally do irony.
The silly bugger doesn’t realise just how ironic it is.
He personally thinks he is instructing his inferiors how to think. He, personally, imagines himself to be such a very clever person while the rest of us mainly see him as a disgusting, snivelling little ex-Scottish ("Tractor" - Ed).
I saw somewhere Northern Ireland is pro EU.
If they vote to stay, and England votes to leave, has anybody any idea what will happen?
Basically, which Union matter most to most people in NI? Anyone got a handle on it?
@Jack Murphy says: 20 February, 2016 at 2:12 pm:
“Michael Gove:–Scotland’s Champion.”</i?
Aye! Jack, but champion of what?
It’s Deja Vu all over again…
Has Call Me Dave shot his bolt too early with his EuroVow?
link to anindependentscotsman.wordpress.com
Should we tell the Rule Britannia brigade their empire fell years ago,or just laugh at them? WOOOHOOO
The Germans will pull out of Whingeland as will the Japanese.(The UK car industry???? that will disappear overnight.)
They will make their bed and lie in their own pish.
SNP x Tout.
I am still not convinced there will be a vote to quit the EU in England, and hence the UK will be out of the EU (unless the margin in England is tiny, and NI/Scotland make the difference, which would be quite something to behold in terms of the MSM’s reaction!).
The out campaign is a complete shambles, and they have luminaries such as Farage, Gove, Nigel Lawson, Galloway etc. However, there is no doubt that anti-EU feeling in England and Wales in particular is pretty strong and formidable, whether it needs a well run campaign to get an out vote is a moot point. I reckon that there is all to play for in terms of the result, looks pretty unclear to me at the moment at any rate.
Nice to Sir Cash For Access Pipkin’s profile on continuous BBC loop.
How it helps to verify the positivity of the establishments arguments.
What if Scotland forces England to stay against its will. Will the English dissolve the Union.
Read Michael Gove’s speech with astonishment at his lack of self-awareness and hypocrisy – or is he just thick?. Is it possible that someone who has had as much university education as he has is really just thick? “like the Americans who declared their independence and never looked back” – is it possible that he doesn’t know who the Americans declared their independence from? Is it? Totally astonished!!!!
Norman Tebbit on BBC Radio 4 just after 5.30pm this evening, being interviewed on this. The only problem he sees, if that if there is a tight vote to remain IN, there will be trouble if the promises made are not delivered or reneged upon.. OH THE IRONY
Sorry have not got a clip
I see HSBC have threatened to move 1000 jobs to Paris if an out vote on the EU.
Quite versatile that HSBC crowd huh?
@galamcennalath
The Belfast telegraph article I posted earlier had an online poll, how representative it may be is unknown but 57% Out 43% In was the result when I last looked.
link to belfasttelegraph.co.uk
BTL comments are more evenly split though.
I found the results from a poll in Aug last year reported by the BBC though showing 58% in favour of remaining In.
link to archive.is
@Lochside says: 20 February, 2016 at 3:42 pm:
“…is there any guarantee that the votes for each constituent country within the UK will be counted separately?”
Does it matter, Lochside? Cameron is on a hiding to nothing if he decrees the count is published as a UK wide result. If he does then everyone is entitled to claim that Scotland, or indeed Wales or both, voted to remain EU citizens.
EU law says there is no mechanism, or EU law, to remove individual EU citizens citizenship from them. There is a mechanism for a member state to resign as a member country but they must have a clear mandate from their EU citizens to do so.
The Treaty on European Union (Article 50), states :- “Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.”. To date no state has done so.
However Greenland, a part of the Danish Realm, voted to leave the former EEC, (European Economic Community), the EU’s predecessor, in 1985.
Algeria also left the EEC in 1962 upon gaining independence from France. Algeria had been part of France until then.
To date no member state ever held a national referendum on withdrawal from the European Union, although, in 1975, the United Kingdom held a national referendum on withdrawal from the EEC. In that vote 67.2% of voters chose to remain in the EEC.
My own personal experience just now, speaking to people I know personally who voted NOT to leave the EEC, is that a fairly large proportion of them were in favour of an economic union but are bitterly against the present, far more politically motivated ,union that is the EU. These are, though, still a minority among those I personally know.
I wonder if the pig fancier has totally blown it and the UK over an internal row in the Tory party. Almost every way it can go looks bad for him. Roll on Britexit and indy ref two, or Scotland keeping England in the European union. It’s all good whatever way it plays out.
I watched the debate on EU ref in the HoC and the rabid right-wing Tory backbenchers were using the same arguments as Gove.
I think Nigel Dodds DUP brought the debate – but stand to be corrected.
Gave me a good laugh at the irony. Still laughing.
@Bill McLean
Wouldn’t describe him as thick, just the usual extreme right wing views of his type backing the UK and the establishment (who probably laugh at him behind his back).
Here was his views published in the Torygraph on WW1 commemorations.
Michael Gove has condemned left-wing myths about the First World War peddled by programmes such as the TV comedy Blackadder saying they belittle Britain and clear Germany of blame.
The Education Secretary criticises historians and TV programmes that denigrate patriotism and courage by depicting the war as a “misbegotten shambles”.
“The conflict has, for many, been seen through the fictional prism of dramas such as Oh! What a Lovely War, The Monocled Mutineer and Blackadder as a misbegotten shambles – a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.”
Both a Yooner and a Zooner.
Never thought I would say UKIP were scraping the barrel, but I saw Farage sharing a platform with Galloway. Gormless George makes Nigel seem moderate in his Britnatery, come to think of it he makes Nick Griffin look moderate.
At least Nick and Nige don’t dress like members of the Gestapo.
Been watching all the vox pops regarding the referendum.
In any comment thread online referencing Yes Scotland and the SNP we have had Godwin invoked and we have been called Nazis. The outers are the ones scapegoating immigrants for their woes and invoking a certain xenophobic nationalism. Who are the Nazis?
What really gets me is that some fucktard could vote my EU citizenship away and I don’t have a vote because I left to work in the EU 20 years ago. I didn’t expect a vote in the Scottish referendum. This time I feel I should get a vote as I live in the EU, not outside.
Iain@6.51.
Nicely put.
My wife has been saying for a while, “Imagine Scotland keeping England in the EU”, if we thought the poll tax riots were bad down there, wait till you see the whingers go mental, the tail will be wagging the dog. etc.(according to the whingers). As I said before, vote out and the French should shut the Chunnel.
Time for Rosyth to open up its sea links to Europe again.
Independence for Christmas 2016 anyone?
SNP x Tout
The push me pull me of political speech writers hoping to use counter arguments throughout their leaders speeches to integrate the voices of their opponents in a topic that could be fatally divisive to the Conservatives.
‘Today, public disillusionment with the EU is at an all-time high. There are several reasons for this. People feel that the EU is heading in a direction that they never signed up to .
They resent the interference in our national life by what they see as unnecessary rules and regulation. The result is that the democratic consent for the EU in Britain is now wafer thin… (they wonder)what the point of it all is…the British people have set themselves on a path to inevitable exit. And if we aren’t comfortable being in the EU after 40 years, we never will be…so we need to address the sclerotic ineffective decision making that is holding us back…’
link to telegraph.co.uk
Indeed says Scotland, and what is the point of the ‘Union’ which is heading in a direction that we never signed up to and is holding Scotland back?
The answer is to vote SNP in May and ad infinitum until we obtain our independence.
Swami Backverandah says:
20 February, 2016 at 3:38 pm
@heedtracker 3.06
and if Dave does manage to convince the South/England to Remain, what will we witness in the street outside No 10 at dawn on the following morn this time.
I think UKOK karma is heading for Cameron and he’ll be on No.10 door step the morn after saying bye bye. For decades our utterly repellent tory press and the BBC have either kept the UK peeps completely in the dark about the EU or they’ve monstered all and any of it, from butter mountains, straight bananas, swarms of immigrants on the take, tory media has lied about to us Europe.
So how to overturn 30+ years of relentless Kelvin MacKenzie style EU stinks propaganda in a few months? Its a massive task way beyond BBC attack propagandists like Nick Robinson or Laura Keunsberg and even the great UK Treasury lie machine. Its an impossible task, its not going to happen and it will serve the blue toryboys bloody right. Cammers will merely slide into the same Bomber Bliar troughing game very quickly anyway.
Its much the same relentless UK tory BBC propaganda that’s told Scots for generations that they are all Rab C Nesbit style clowns and bums. It eats into the socio economic mind set of a lot of voters. Its the same in England and Johny Foreigner.
@Gary45%
Damn straight
The half-French owned Nissan have already indicated that they would probably move and the rest would probably follow if there was slightest hint that they might be excluded from the single market.
And that’s just the car industry. The rest of the maquiladores that make up “British” manufacturing would vanish like snow off a dyke.
link to bbc.co.uk
A weasel with kind words is still never the less still a weasel and will throttle the life out of you as soon as you take down your gaurd.
I for one am not taken in by this muppet’s stirring peoples speak. You have to recognise his people are the establishment who nurtured him and use him to do their bidding (his own case highlights that yuo can programme folk into being Tories C**ts- no need for genetics). The only sovereignty they (him and his pals) are wishing for is a return to good old parliamentary type- effectively a return to an form of restricted franchise -the great reform acts of the 18000 and 1900 were tolerated because the establishment could still school the game by effectively focusing intensive pressure (blackmail, lobbying) onto several hundred individuals elected as MPs.
I have a warning for left leaning Brexiters to. If you think the betrayal of the Scottish people went down badly, let us see how you are going to contain the rage when you have effectively enabled the right wing to beat the people of the UK into submission. I do not think the out left is in a strong place and will be quietly put out of its misery in a Britain that will become more and more like Orwell’s 1984 and the Haiti of the European Atlantic shoreline# but without the better weather.
In the words of the SNP Foreign Affairs Spokesman..
And tremble, false whigs, in the midst of your glee
Ye hae no seen the last o’ my bonnets and me!
Leaving aside that many constitutionally aware people including myself, would maintain that Scotland does actually have the right to call an Independence referendum ourselves without any recourse to Westminster, though that would likely be challenged in court, this EU Referendum should focus attention for people in Scotland on the following.
1. The UK can hold an in-out referendum on EU membership at any time it likes, Scotland can’t on UK membership.
2. The UK “pools and shares” voluntarily with the EU, it can leave any time it likes, it doesn’t need the EU’s permission. Scotland “pools and shares” with the UK, we can’t leave without the UK’s permission.
3. The Scotland Act 2015 should have had the firm provision that Scotland could hold an Independence Referendum at any time we (or our Government) choose. I believe LPW argued the same, and it was suggested I think in Smith. There is no such provision.
Aye Rev, the devil is in the detail ” * “. Nice one.
Gove: Yes but my speech is about BIG things, not WEE things, Like, well, the country of my birth.
My above posting can be used during the forthcoming EU campaign.
So if any anti-Indy person sneers “You’re hypocritical, you’re campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU but you want Scotland to leave the Union”, the answer is simple:
“The UK can leave the EU at any time it likes wihout having to get the EU’s permission. Scotland can’t leave the UK without its permission. The UK is sovereign, Scotland isn’t”.
Apologies to Robert Peffers – this is politics, not Constitution!
Thank you all for the lovely comments regarding my blog!
Good god!
Knock me down with a feather etc
Wonder how the English Electorate are going to handle all the shit that’s about to come their way.
In a sense us Scot’s were pre-conditioned to Westminster’s methods and since our expectations were so low to begin with there was no shock that they would stoop to the level they did.
But I do get some sense that a good portion of the English voter’s still cleave to the notion that ultimately the establishment knows best and their Britain needs defending from some external threat.
I think they are potentially about to find out the really scarey stuff comes from Westminster it’s self and they are about to be jettisoned out of their comfort zone.
I take no pleasure in this and feel heartsore for Wales in all of it,the only comfort I can find is that eventually Scotland’s example will create a demand for change by demonstrating another way is possible.
When Indyref2 does eventually come along, when PM Boris or Gideon is finally forced to accede to one, it will require people to have long memories. What we need is a “Wee Black Book”, like the excellent blue one of fond memory, to accumulate all past and future broken promises, hypocrisy and outright lies emanating from the Unionists.
And no better first entry than this jaw-dropping piece of shameless hypocrisy from loyal North Briton Gove.
Remind me again. We are currently members of the EU. Why are we having this referendum ?.
@John from Fife – Why are we having this referendum ?
Because John they don’t give a flying fuck for us or our families, all that matters is SE and pandering to UKIPers
tombee @ 3:57pm
Apparently the utilitarian perspective is that Scots are the ‘New Children of Ham’. Suck it up. Our sin? Not being or wanting to be English/British?
link to en.wikipedia.org
Like some have already said, its really sad that the YooKay is in this situation, all because The Grinch Farage rattled a few bigoted brain cells dan saff.
England “The only country on the planet where the turkeys voted for Christmas” (they don’t appreciate how easy life is made for them in Europe)
When the financial sector also leaves “The City”, England will be Fkd.
Expect WW1,WW2, the Falklands, Waterloo, Trafalgar e.tc to be mentioned daily by the media up until June.
The Great Escape will no longer be a Christmas movie.
We will be fine because we have an SNP government who cares for Scotland.
Roll on Independence.
SNP x Tout
Dear Daisy welcome to the site. 17 years of age and truly engaged politically. FANTASTIC! I reckon that you are one of hundreds of young politically motivated Scots that WILL make Scotland and the World, in fact, a better place to live in. Young people like you are our future and no doubt we’ll see you standing in Holyrood one day. Best wishes to you Daisy and please keep in touch …. keep on posting.
Well here we are again… another referendum, another period of lurking at Wings to see what interesting folks are saying.
Still, I’m not as sure as many of you apparently here are that the vote will be to Stay In; for the last few months I’ve been working in End Of Life Care, an area dominated by low paid women you think would be caring, with a huge Eastern European workforce… and time and time again I’ve heard the refrain that “we need to control immigration”. In particular, because of gender, the idea of child benefit (which many of them are having cut) being given is stated as a main dislike, as is the generalized suspicion their wages are so low because of migrant pressure.
Anecdotes aren’t data again, and my sample size is exceptionally small… but it’s certainly been eye opening to me to hear people at the hard end of the workplace say “Oh, the Poles here are wonderful and we couldn’t do the job without them… but still, we need to stop child benefit payments to others, look after the English first.”
So I’m very, very nervous about how this could go; if the Murdoch media breaks for Cameron and argues for his negotiated position, I think he’ll carry it… but Tory division and years of hateful propaganda has gone deep and it could just as easily be the case that if people are told “We are reducing Child Benefit payments!” they’ll go “wait, they still get some?! I’m voting out!” Donald Trump in the US is a very clear warning about how hard it is to apply the brakes once you’ve stoked up the crazy train’s boiler…
I’m also not convinced you’ll get a clear argument for a second Independence referendum; I know here in Wings Comments everything is always Good News For Independence, but it could also lead to Referendum Burnout among the electorate, especially if there’s the suggestion of shenanigans or, counter intuitive here I know, if the Referendum votes in accordance with the Scottish perspective… “We can/can’t trust the political process!” could be taken either way, especially on such a complicated question as this one will prove, especially as the claimed voting is already across Party and National lines.
Remember the SNP is clearly flagging that it wants to remain in, and this means voting to give Cameron a political victory… yet here at Wings there’s enormous relish for seeing egg on the face of the PM, and some hope that the UK leaves, and is then broken up. I expect in the voting booth the vast majority here will vote responsibly according to their higher callings, but still… voting patterns for this referendum are going to be spectacularly confused methinks.
And scary.
What’s with the name Brexit or Brexiters? Go the whole hog and call them separatists.
Could some good person clarify a point for me.
I understood that there could be no significant change in our relationship with the EU without a referendum.
Does this mean that if the vote favours staying in, there would then have to be another referendum about whether or not the changes designed to get us to stay in were acceptable anyway.
A Scottish exit from the Union – ‘Scoot’.
@Proud Cybernat
‘Scoot’ love it, wish I’d thought of that one.
I’ve got a bad feeling about the Brexit ref.
Many years ago, a mate’s girlfriend blew her top because a bus load of Spanish tourists were decanting from their tour bus during the Edinburgh Festival and for a few minutes I guess blocked the pavement to traffic. Later, when the story spread amongst other friends, one of the first questions to arise was “Did she explain she was Welsh”?
The mood was that if anybody was going to insult Europe, especially from our pitch, it really ought to be us.
I feel like that about Brexit. It feels like we are contemplating to slap our European friends, neighbours, and visitors square in the face, and I just feel embarrassed its even happening.
I don’t have a lot of confidence that Scotland will somehow stay in Europe if the UK vote is to exit. Nice idea, but since we couldn’t establish clear water around Scotland’s sovereignty at our very own Indyref, exiting the EU adds layers of complexity but removes very few.
I was ridiculed as a scaremonger to point out that without the EU, Europe risks a return to the petty bickering and myriad of treaties and counter treaties which kept European countries at each other’s throats and on the brink of war, if not actually at war, for decades/centuries. One of the fundamental principles behind establishing the EU was to make the possibility of war in Europe a thing of the past.
My own project fear it was called… Just suppose however, that the UK exited Europe, and Spain finally decided that Gibraltar was Spanish territory. (Actually they already have). It needn’t be a shooting war to impact on trade and diplomatic alliances, and the UK might find itself defending its 18th Century Imperialist anomolies all by its lonesome self while the real world has moved on. Trade will not allow the Straights of Gibraltar to be a point of ransom or blockade, the US will get involved, and London might realise just how fragile their special relationship with the US actually is.
What are the chances? I suppose it could happen whether we are in Europe or out, but just suppose it did, ask yourself who else might choose to be on our side.
WW1 wasn’t started because Archduke Ferdinand was killed, it was caused by the myriad of treaties and international defence accords through which the lightning bolt of war followed the path of least resistance.
Do we really need to turn back the clock because Eton College is nostalgic for the good old days when Britannia ruled the waves?
You know, to keep us alert at the appropriate threat level, we hear all the time about muslims being radicalised at Muslim schools and having their heads filled with dangerous ideas and subversive beliefs to destabalise our society. Just for badness this Sunday morning, I wonder how your average, rational man in a Muslim street views Eton College. Bet he doesn’t chuckle at the irony.
Footsoldier says:
20 February, 2016 at 11:39 pm
What’s with the name Brexit or Brexiters?
What about Breparists or Separbrits
Michael Gove’s lack of self awareness is awesome to behold. Only delusional elite politicians seriously believe, “what’s good for me and mine is not necessarily good for you and yours”.
Bye the way Daisy Collins, you’re a rising star, post to your heart’s content.
Why is the SNP so pro-EU?
Surely the goal of “ever closer political union” centralised in Brussels is incompatible with Scottish independence?
Did they not notice how the EU reacted when Greece attempted to implement “anti austerity” economic policies?
But Rev I am unclear why you agree with Michael Gove when you disagree with Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon
Ah yes! but when we have Michael Gove stating that his starting point is simple.
I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change.
He doesn’t believe that this should apply to Scotland, which should remain under Westminster control and get governments it didn’t vote for have no say in the policy making decisions at Westminster.
Is there anything creepier than a loyal Jock Uriah Heep?
For Valerie, from an American across the pond.
Yes, like America. Do you know anything about our American Revolution? Do you have any idea what England was doing to the people who were really British at the time since there wasn’t an America at the time, just the ‘New World’ colonies? Have you read our constitution that our founding fathers put together? Do you understand why they designed it as it is? Look at your own damned history! What they did to Scots pales to what they did to us at that time in our history. The British / English have been doing the same to Scotland for hundreds of years and look where you still are; a subservient state because there’s not enough Scots willing to stand up for an independent Scotland (yet)! It’s a shame to my Scottish ancestry! They had to come to America and fight in our Revolutionary war to get their freedom.
America and freedom Scotland, not. We have lots of problems, you’re right and if Scotland ever becomes independent, it will too. America and it’s constitution have been the hallmark of nationhood for over 200 years! Scotland has been trying to gain independence for hundreds of years with no success. You couldn’t even do it with a non violent vote a year ago! WHY?
You don’t have to emulate EVERYTHING America does but what it is is a free and independent country with more of EVERYTHING than any other country and the envy of most! When you can pull the wool off the eyes of your NO voters and convince them to be a proud independent Scottish nation you will be free to make your own mistakes. They don’t have to be like ours. Scotland will be free to step on it’s own willie as an independent country. They’ll not be imposed on you by the rule of Westminster.