Scotland’s Future
Posted on
November 26, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Alert readers may have noticed that the Scottish Government website and the scotreferendum.com one are both somewhat besieged by traffic at the moment and struggling to load. So we’ve uploaded local copies of both the full White Paper and the summary document, in “epub” format (for tablet devices and smartphones) and PDF for reading on PCs. You can find them below.
Scotland’s Future – Summary (epub)
Scotland’s Future – Summary (PDF)
Breaking with the apparent media and Unionist convention, we’re actually going to try to read the document before commenting on it, so we may be a little quiet for a while.
.
ALTERNATIVE LINKS IN CASE OF DIFFICULTY
Scotland’s Future – Summary (epub)
Scotland’s Future – Summary (PDF)
Thanks Stu
Been struggling to get my hands on this for the last hour 😉
Thanks
Thanks for that – do you know how to get a hard copy as I can’t seem to find that info
Have managed to join live link and am really impressed by both AS and NS – professional, confident and know exactly what they want to say – no searching for notes and sticking to the script.
Brilliant!
Thanks for this Rev
Thank you!
Has there been any announcement regarding paper copies? Or even when / how they will become available?
I note that the links simply specify “Scotland’s Future” and the file format, without answering any of the really big questions, like “Will I get a Kindle for Xmas?”.
Cheers Rev!
Just watched and listened this and my verdict is…Awesome…The FM & DFM did brilliant against the predicted onslaught from the MSM & our friends at BBC Scotland. Wipe out in my estimation.
Great idea, Rev. Ahead of the game as usual.
Spread the word, brothers and sisters!
@Gaavster
I posted an ebook download link about an hour ago in “Loch Ness Monster’s underwear” 😉
Just in case WOS gets overloaded, the full White Paper and summary doc (including, MOBI format for Kindle) are available at…
link to scotgov.publishingthefuture.info
following comment taken from the BBC live coverage of the white paper launch:
“My family has lived in Scotland for 1000 years and the greatest victory England could ever have over Scotland is a yes vote for independence in 2014. It would be a victory for the English because the SNP is basing its campaign on patriotism and “getting one over the English” as though the question of independence is somehow equal to a football game? The fairytale represented today by the SNP scares me. I’m not looking for a party that only views the world as doom and gloom, but I am looking for a party that has a grip on reality and realises there will be massive sacrifices if we choose independence.”
what a corker that one is! i’m sure we will get a lot more tosh like this flooding in through aunty throughout the morning!
Thanks!!!
Thank you so much for this Rev, what a sterling performance from Alex & Nicola pardon the pun.
Thank you.
Superb performance, not one pause , hesitation or stutter. Contrast that with the Carmichael and Darling performances , what a difference when you have conviction and believe in what you are saying.
It was like Fishes (Salmon and Sturgeon) shooting journo’s in a barrel
Particularly the comment from Salmond to the the Mail on Sunday (Daily Heil) that post YES vote the Daily Heil will be campaigning for Scotland to keep the pound…
Awesome, can you imagine the Scottish Debater of the Year giving such a polished performance.
Okay, I’ll see you all in a few days, once I’ve finished reading! 🙂
Had to laugh at Salmond and his quip at who has seniority at the telegraph? looks like the foreign correspondent had it. Nae luck Cochrane, who’s question was mince anyway.
This comment from BBC sums up why we need to get cleanly away
The constitution unit at University College London raises an interesting prospect. It argues that, if the SNP wins and its white paper turns out to be a “false prospectus”, there would be a “strong case” for holding a second referendum in 2016. Voters could be asked whether they “still want independence on these terms”, it says.
On the paper copy: Scot Govt website (link to news.scotland.gov.uk) states: More details of how the white paper will be made available to the general public will be outlined on Tuesday of next week.
Oh and he took the piss out of Nick Robinson. Always good to see!
Hard copies can be ordered on 0300 012 1809, delivered within a week.
Awesome! Many reporters were baffled Alex and Nicola are not supporting their papers point of view, as in How dare You?
But the best of the best was to classify reporters between international and domestic(ised)
If you want to read the epub versions on your computer I recommend Calibre – link to calibre-ebook.com.
Not a bad Q&A by the FM and Nicola. Y’know, considering it was a room full of our bestest buds in media land including Sev and Cochers (ok, hostile audience). 🙂
Didn’t see them get into bother once and looking fairly relaxed. They wanted detail now they’ve got it and more importantly, so do we.
It’s encouraging to see what conviction, belief and hope can achieve in contrast to the tragi-comic doom and gloom utterances of people who don’t even have the status quo to offer as a beacon of hope.
I thought Nick Robinson had learnt his lesson about making groundless claims when he predicted David Miliband had won the Labour leadership contest 30 seconds before his brother’s name was announced.
He should have waited till he had a pdf before saying it contained no ambiguities, e.g. use of “might”, etc.
Thank you,WOS.
I’d still like to get a printed copy from the SG when things quieten down – to own a wee bit of history.
New world speed record of 47 words per second set by flipper Darling this morning.
I just ordered the paper from the phone Heraldnomore mentioned, answered at the third ring, name, address and postcode and it will be here within a fornight.
Thank you kindly H.
“I just ordered the paper from the phone Heraldnomore mentioned, answered at the third ring, name, address and postcode and it will be here within a fornight.”
What’s the cost?
Anybody know if there is anywhere in Edinburgh which will stock the paper copy?
Watched this live, was totally impressed by both Alex & Nicola, had been trying to get the white paper downloaded, so Thanks for the links Rev, much appreciated.
Have already converted to Mobi, so I can read on my Hols coming up in just over a weeks time..
First published reaction: link to standard.co.uk
Sheer unionist drivel but them in a nutshell.
“If it was stripped of Sterling, then an independent Scotland could not be expected to take on a fair share of the UK’s debts, she added, saying: “Assets and liabilities are two sides of the same coin.”
Mr Darling tweeted: “Nicola Sturgeon threatens debt default if she doesn’t get her way on currency. What would that mean for your mortgage?”
I was disappointed that given how many of the world’s press were in attendance that apart from perhaps Reuters all the questions came from UK journalists.
Does anyone know where I might be able to watch the Q&A session when I get home from work this evening?
Aunty Beb version: link to bbc.co.uk
“It would, perhaps, have its own Head of State – perhaps an elected President like America or France or a more symbolic figurehead like Germany”
Balanced? My £$$
White paper. Excellent. Will read with much interest.
However there appears to be a lot of peeps on the BBC HYS who have read the f***ing thing already. Either that I’ve been reading uneducated biased bullsh*t.
The latter me thinks. Some people still not ready to be unplugged.
The Independent: link to independent.co.uk
Amazing! Not a single comment from the other side included.
Just out of interest….I’m at work right now….is the Presser going to be reran or available on line ?
PS Lots of fun with John Ruddy on the Guardian site…..
‘North Sea Oil isn’t an asset’….
Mags Curran never said she was in favour of replacing Barnett with a needs based formula
Oh and Better Together never referred to themselves as Project Fear that’s a lie spread by a Journalist…..
no charge, collector’s item
The official tory version: link to independent.co.uk
The Alex Salmond prize for fairy tales
Rev Stu, free to anyone who wants one.
Think I will get mine autographed by Nicola Sturgeon or Alex Salmond if I can. Something to show the grandkids.
Aye, that Alex Salmond he’s slippery and he used to be fat and he does things deliberately and him and that Nicola Sturgeon answering questions all fair and everything.
My copy is on the way. A very important document. These are momentous days.
Many thanks Rev
My E-Book reader is saying epub version of the white paper is only 390 pages. Is that right? I might be through this by the end of the day and not far behind the likes of Jenny Marra and Alistair Darling at this rate!
I got 883. I think it might depend on your hardware.
@ Gray says:
Reckon the international press were there to listen and observe without an agenda. The predicted onslaught came from the usual suspects with an agenda with the usual predictable shite questions that were emitted from them and easily countered by the FM & the DPM who were on top of their game.
First major and relavent criticism on the BBC timeline:
1150:
Our copies of Scotland’s Future: Your guide to an independent Scotland are 649 pages long – not the 670 that has been reported. It is still a big book though.
May as well through the towel in now folks!!!
The BBC comments are the usual bunch of nonsense.
The white paper is generally summed up as King Alex’s wishlist over his tweed and bagpipes economy.
Why would anyone want to stay in a union where this is a typical sort of opinion..?
Is there somewhere you can watch the launch as the clips I’ve seen so far have been very short extracts.
The English TV presenters just don’t understand their subject. They have not a clue about anything outside London. They look at their lives in London and think that’s how it is in the rest of the country, what the hell are they complaining about, they daft jocks. They forget that we subsidise them.
You only have to see the bemused faces as they read their background info packs and it does not compute with their experiences of London, and they don’t understand. That is very obvious when they then try and ask questions which make no sense. They are used to two minute soundbites then move on. They believe the world of make believe that they live in Especially in London is the norm. They don’t understand they think Darling, Carmichael, etc are the typical Scot.
Carmichael on BBC news. What waste of space.
Secretary of State for Portsmouth claiming on Beeb News that we will have to pay 1000 more on taxes if we vote yes according to a new document out today…
He got more time to spout his lies than the report on the White Paoer launch.
Well I have only read the Foreword in the White Paper and it is nonsense. They have completely failed to answer all the questions. #Project Fear shambles
Just read the excellent Summary.pdf. Sheer clear common sense.
Perfect.
Somewhere Blair MacDougall is screaming “There must be something we can do?”.
Many thanks, Stu.
Been watching the launch on BBC.
Darling has rubbished the paper without, obviously, having read it and went on (again) about Scotland not being able to use the £.
I’d like one of these so-called journalists/interviewers to show some backbone and put them on the spot by asking Darling, Carmichael and Co: How would you go about barring Scotland from using an internationally tradable currency?
POSITIVE ALI ranting on again, same old same old. Daily politics.
I called the number for the hard copy supplied by heraldnomore and got a voice mail was it an actual person who was taking the orders? I thought it would have been automated!!!
Comments now open on independent site……the wrath of England awaits…
Darling saying the Barnett Formula will remain if there is a No vote. Do we believe him?
Heraldnomore and The Rev,
May thanks for the info. Hard copy ordered no bother, guy on the line said it was going crazy. A very good sign!
I literally wanted to punch the TV screen when Alastair Darling went off into a full scale manic rant. Isn’t it curious, and I am sure completely coincidental, how the most negative comments about the currency issue have appeared just as the White Paper is released? The fact remains is that not a single UK politician has met the SNP’s intellectual or economic case on the currency issue. The sad thing is they will never make any effort to, as they know they can’t. All they need to do is sow doubt and uncertainty, hark on about Plan B, unanswered questions, and negotiations ad nauseum and hope that is sufficient to scare us all off.
Someone however we need to get a handle on this currency issue as it is one area where I have to admit we are taking an absolute hammering, and it will have traction with voters.
Otherwise the Q and A was entirely predictable. Outraged white males from the westminster media bubble and pro-union Scottish press asking biased, and at times completely absurd and mis-informed questions.
Let’s hope Project Hope wins over Project Feart!
Not read the thread yet, but to get a hard copy phone The Scottish Government on 0131 556 8400, give them your name and address and they will send you a copy.
The lovely lady said it could take a couple of weeks.
@Jimbo
The sterling question was one of the only two occasions in the launch where AS took the gloves off, pointing out in no uncertain terms that there would be a nasty hole in RUK balance of payments if WM rejected the pound, also pointing out that Scotland was rUKs second largest trading partner so why would they cut off their nose to spite their face…
Those two points need to be firmly put to the Sec of State for Portsmouth…. but I’m not holding my breath.
Well all the unionist press had their opportunity to put the SNP on the spot in this white paper launch…unfortunately for them they could not muster one poingnent question to challenge their proclaimed adversary.
Can just picture the “cream’ of the unionist MSM/BBC reporters standing in a Glesca pub right now wondering where it all went wrong for them?
Muttley 79 12:18
IS THAT GUARANTEED?
@castle hills chavie –
I just called that number and the lady said they’re encouraging folk to go online, but did offer a 40-page summary, so I opted for that. They must be running out of hard copies if they’re limiting them already – wonder how many were printed?
Maybe the SNP are waiting on the Greens to come out with their option on currency…..the thistle?
Use our assets to their fullest. Or we should just call their bluff and tell them to poke their Lender of last resort, I’m sure the Norwegian banks would be happy to help.
OK Brace yourself for a 300 day tsunami of “black holes” “don’t add up” “independence in tatters” and of course “salmond accused”
Which hack will be first to drop their Union Jack boxers and pinch one out?
UDI.
You know it makes sense 🙂
Many thanks for doing this Stu. I’ve downloaded the ePub version for my Kindle (converted via Calibre) and the PDF version for my iPad. It looks like my Nordic Noir fetish will have to take a back seat for a while.
I thought the presentation went very well. Very professional. Of course we still had to listen to AD and AC banging on about the unanswered questions. You know, the ones it’s in their gift to answer. But hey, we all expected as much.
Dear George Osborne,
Up here in Scotland, the Scottish Government say that with independence, it would make sense for rUK to join a currency union with independent Scotland. The anti independence campaign however, say it doesn’t make sense and is very, very, very unlikely.
You could put this matter to rest once and for all, by simply and clearly stating YES or NO to a currency union in such circumstances. A fudged answer will not help.
I await your definitive response with baited breath.
Yours,
Scotlandshire, England.
…aye, right! Osborne has repeatedly refused to say NO, as even he knows it makes no sense for rUK to refuse such a union.
Al Ghaf,
Scotland does have an economic ‘black hole’, it’s called Westminster. All our money goes there, and we only get a wee bit of it back.
Just ordered my copy of the full thing, she asked me to confirm that I wanted all the 670 pages and I said yes, couple of weeks and my reading will be sorted until Santa comes calling…
Thanks, Rev Stu, for the links. It seems the Scottish Government was caught surprised about the sheer amount of traffic on their websites, everybody clamouring to get the white paper! 😀
I was lucky enough to go to the Scottish government site early enough to be able to watch the launch live. What an impressive performance by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon!
The London-centric press sounded like a broken record. I liked the way AS and NS answered their silly questions, “as it says on pages xx to xx,…” and you could see the jornalists hectically leafing through their copies.
The Finnish national broadcaster YLE did a short piece on their website – usually we get very little news from Scotland.
link to yle.fi
The headline: “Blueprint for an independent Scotland published”
A quick translation of the text:
An independent Scotland would, among other things, keep the Queen but get rid of nuclear weapons. The referendum on Scotland remaining a part of the United Kingdom will be held in autumn 2014
On Tuesday, Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond presented a vision of what an independent Scotland would look like.
According to the 670-page white paper, Scotland would, among other things, keep the British currency and the Queen and remain a member of the EU. However, an independent Scotland would have its own defence forces and collect its own taxes.
The purpose of the white paper presented by Salmond is to convince Scots to vote for independence in next autumn’s referendum. A Yes-vote would end the 306-year union between Scotland and England.
Salmond says that Scotland becoming independent would not require raising taxes.
“We have the people, the skills and the resources to make Scotland a more successful country”, Salmond asserted, and added that Scottish tax money would not be spent on nuclear weapons.
The British nuclear weapons now in Scotland would be removed for good.
“Independence would make Scots masters of their own fate.”
The referendum will be held on 18 September 2014.
Been really pleased with what I’ve seen so far. Now the REAL hard work begins. The message is out there. Lets spread it as much as we can between now and 18/9/14.
We still have a hell of a fight on our hands.
Whohoo. Copy ordered. Was tempted to get both copies, the 40 page and full copy, but didn’t want to seem greedy. Smile face thingy.
Hewitt83
Totally agree. Now we need to convince others, and show them the benefits if Scottish independence – something regarded as quite, quite normal in other parts of the world.
10 months to save Scotland from Westminster hell.
After a YES vote the Rest of UK will be begging Scotland to remain in the Sterling zone.
UK’s balance of trade deficit is currently £35 billion and will require to import £30 billion worth of Scotland’s oil and gas annually after 24 March 2016.
The EU estimates the UK trade deficit at 4.4% of GDP – the highest of any major economy. Take out £50bn of Scotland’s exports and the UK trade deficit rises to around 10% of GDP. Interest payments on UK’s debt have risen by 1% (10yr bonds) in the last 12 months.
Just think how rUK’s creditors will react to such an impact on a doubling of the trade deficit. George Osborne wouldn’t want to risk higher borrowing rates and possibly a run on the English pound just before the 2015 Westminster election.
The Tories “Friends in the North” Carmichael and Darling should be asked why Scots should vote for Lib Dems or Labour in 2015 if their parties are going to be vindictive and obstructive after the democratic will of the Scottish people express a YES vote to independence and keeping the pound.
Better a Scottish wish list than the UK death wish.
@ castle hills chavie
The Scottish Government on 0131 556 8400, give them your name and address and they will send you a copy.
Phone picked up immediately and lady happy to send to my work address as house not always occupied during the day.
Canny beat that if it’s what to expect in an Independent Scotland. Human beings on the end of phones. As well as being efficient, being helpful and nice.
Holyrood debate starts at 14:40…somewhere Johann Lamont is pacing the floor and asking “Wheres my bloody cue cards…i have to rehearse my ad-libs!”!
I just ordered my copy too and at first worried that they might not send to England!!!!!!
Excellent – no charge and no delivery charge!
Thanks heraldnomore.
If you have a Kindle, I’ve found the easiest way to transfer documents from PC (or Mac) to your Kindle is to download the Send to Kindle app (link to amazon.com).
So download the Kindle file from the scotreferendum site, then use the Send to Kindle app to send it to all your Kindle devices. Works a treat, no cables required.
OK Brace yourself for a 300 day tsunami of “black holes” “don’t add up” “independence in tatters” and of course “salmond accused”
As of today, that is not good enough. The cards are on the table. No more BS. The SG have spelled out their vision for an independent Scotland. The people will read it carefully, digest and then expect BT to answer, to explain what their vision for a dependent Scotland in the UK is. Standing on the side, slagging off the white paper will not gop down well, especially if no alternative is offered.
BT may not yet realize it, but if they don’t come up with something to match the white paper (page by page) by Easter 2014, they are in deep trouble.
That’s a massive help, thanks Stu. I had been banging my digital head against the door to the official download for ages with no response whatsoever.
Now I just need to read the thing!
Hard copy ordered too from ‘The White Paper Hotline’ on 03000 121809 😉 <thanks heraldnomore>
Really friendly lassie on the line said ‘it was unbelievably busy!’, followed by a hearty positive laugh…
Thanks again all
Holyrood debate starts at 14:40…somewhere Johann Lamont is pacing the floor and asking “Wheres my bloody cue cards…i have to rehearse my ad-libs!”!
The world is watching, Johann. Better not make an arse of it.
Many thanks Stu. Looking forward to an interesting read – I’m not as fast as BT’s speedreaders, but I’ll get there.
Wayne,
re the currency issue. Their current position will be their downfall as we come closer to the referendum and the electorate start to really consider the offers of the two opposing sides.
A high percentage of the current NO’s and Don’t knows are all saying that they want devomax in a reformed Union. The entire NO campaign, including Cameron, Osborne, Clegg, Carmichael, Darling, Milliband, Balls and all their juniorJocks in the Parly, are busy stating, quite categorically, that a Sterling currency union would be unworkable and impossible to deliver. It’s all on record now.
Most folk’s concept of Devomax is full Scottish tax raising and spending powers (including oil) controlled by Holyrood, with Defense and Foreign affairs controlled by Westminster and (most importantly) all under the current currency of Sterling.
That is essentially the same in practice as the currency union being put forward by the SNP (economically speaking), and which is currently being vociferously rubbished as unworkable by the Unionists.
Come the referendum decision, those voters that harboured hopes of the UK delivering Devomax after a YES vote can be shown, quite straight forwardly, the strongly held and stated beliefs of the entire post referendum UK Unionist leadership, that currency union/Devomax is a practical impossibility, never mind highly undesirable.
Those people will be faced with the fact that, a YES vote is the only way to achieve Devomax powers for Scotland. The Unionists are at the moment busy setting fire to their already leaking ‘jam tomorrow’ life boat.
This campaign is long, and the closer we get to the vote the more the contradictions and lies of the BetterNO campaign will become glaringly obvious, even to the non political. Nobody likes to be treated like, or be taken for a fool. You don’t need to be politically minded to know that.
I’ve been pondering why the BBC coverage is based in Edinburgh, not Glasgow. It doesn’t make any sense.
Could the answer be a simple one? All the SNP ‘big hitters’ will be in Glasgow for the launch, so allowing a procession of Project Fearties to be interviewed live in Edinburgh. The BBC wouldn’t want to take the chance of an accidental debate happening live on TV, if say Swinney and Darling were interviewed together?
Just heard the news headlines on Radio 3 concerning Scottish White Paper.
Very short but very fair.From now on I think I’ll get my BBC “news” from Radio 3.
Sorry that should have read,
Come the referendum decision, those voters that harboured hopes of the UK delivering Devomax after a NO vote can be shown, quite straight forwardly, the strongly held and stated beliefs of the entire post referendum UK Unionist leadership, that currency union/Devomax is a practical impossibility, never mind highly undesirable.
Just ordered my full 670 page copy of the most historic document any of us are ever likely to see. It will take 2 weeks to arrive but I am sure Wings analysis will keep me on the edge of my seat in the meantime.
Worth making a very quick point, that Wings was the first place I came to when the lunch bell went. Who needs the BBC etc!
Been phoning to try and order my copy of the white paper. The message at the start tells me they are busy and I need to hold. Get the music and a few minutes later I end up on a woman Yvonne Craig’s voicemail, tells me she is away from her desk. Will try again later lol.
The world is watching, Johann. Better not make an arse of it.
Oh dear, how embarrassing people from outside Scotland may well tune into the Holyrood debate this afternoon and think Lamont is one of Scotlands big hitters.
I believe she is the worst politician in the history of mankind. Calling her a politician is a contradiction in terms. . Truly vile human being.
Just toddled through the summary version, sooo worth it just for the section on broadcasting. The wording is first class. 🙂
I have to wonder…how can the Greens support this 600 odd page document…how many trees died for Salmonds ego-trip
If any Unionists reading, please note above gag is now copyrighted to me!
Re Hardcopies, I also got a voicemail when I tried the number given by @Heraldnomore, but the one from @castle hills chavie worked for me. Guess the first one must have been off for a well-deserved tea break after fielding thousands of calls already! It’s nice to feel the positivity winning, for one day at least!
Better Together should have had their own White / Red / Blue paper already issued or ready to counter act the Scottish Goverments White Paper. Unfortunately they don’t and to me have now left if too late and they only have themselves to blame.
The gloves are now off. This is the SNP’s first real foray into the campaign. BetterTogether have been there from the off. They now have all the explaining to do and to start to tell us the TRUTH about what will happen if there is a no vote.
They will have to be upfront and answer questions on what Scotland holds dear. The NHS, Health, Welfare, Education, Law and Order. State owned Scottish Water which the opposition want to be privatised.
Many of already already know or suspect what will be in store. Others have their head in the sand and are unwilling to look into things for themselves.
Hard copy full version White Paper ordered for posterity form Scottish Government – after a YES vote this will be the best gift my kids & future grandkids will ever have.
Great work, Rev. I’ll download it when I get home… I don’t think work would automatically be appreciative of me downloading it here then hitting ‘send to all….’ not even if I headed it as educational material….. It would be entertaining, though, to get to hear the reaction from the non nationalist councillors… work, at present, is out in Kirkintilloch at East Dunbarton Council. The joys of temping… you get to spread your ‘insidious’ independence propaganda everywhere 🙂
Tempting, I admit, but I do quite like working here 🙂 So I’ll get it at home and read it in my own time, make my own notes, and as usual make my own mind up without the deafening roar of unionist making up reasons to object to something, anything, everything…
O/T, Jim Naughtie on World at One letting Alistair Carmichael rabbit on about things he doesn’t really understand.
Ok got it ordered, tried to get me to download or go to the library and read it. But I’m now getting the full version sent in a couple of weeks.
O/T just saw Bitter Together/UKOK at the Paisley Cenotaph (the fisrt time I’ve seen them), but people didn’t seem interested. There was a kinda tall bald guy trying to hand out leaflets but folk were just walking past.
They were rolling up the banner as I went past and by the time I returned about 15 minutes later they were gone. This was about 12.30. You’d think they’d stay for the whole lunch time, but it looks like the good Buddies of Paisley treated them like the trolls they are.
I ordered my copy of full report and the job was done in minutes (0131 556 8400).
Decided I’d like a summary report but held my hand up that I’d ordered the full one to my business address. Only one item per household allowed, but as I’d not used my home address for the full report, the lady laughed a wee bit and put my summary order through. Again only 2 minutes.
Great folk the people of Scotland.
I’d really like to watch the live launch when I get home from work, does anybody have a link I could use to view it in full or know if it will be shown on?
Also (sorry, don’t mean to be a pest) but does anywone know if the orderline for hard copies will be open after 6pm tonight as I’m not allowed to call from work?
@Braco
Yes, it was always likely that the SG’s version of independence would be as close to Devo Max as possible. The whole two questions in the referendum phase was designed to show the voters here that the No campaign and the British state had, or have no intention, of delivering the option that was the most popular. It also gave time for the grassroots independence campaign to grow as well after the 2011 election. The SG know that those who already supported independence would vote Yes anyway. They have proven to the “more powers” voters and supporters that it is impossible under the UK state. In addition, the No campaign have backed themselves into a corner.
things he doesn’t really understand
Alistair, Jim, or both of them??
I think a big “Thanks” should go to the ever cheerful Yvonne at the end of the phone!
PS thanks to all of you who’ve posted the info on how to get copies (both electronic and paper) – like @ScottyC1314, Wings was my first port of call.
Order hard copy from Email: referendumwhitepaper@scotland.gsi.gov.uk
Paper copy on its way in a few weeks. 🙂
I have just heard Alastair Carmichael on the World At One say that Scottish Civil Society (and other elements) would ‘only be relevant if Scotland votes No’. IOW they would be irrelevant if we vote Yes.
The man is a walking talking disaster area.
BTW Jim Naughtie did a good job of hauling him up and calling him to account, a breath of fresh air from Aunty.
I missed the White Paper launch as I was doing things for the Yes campaign and like several others if a link could be put up sometime during the day to see video of the launch that would be appreciated.
@busy-bee
See link to bbc.co.uk. Not sure how long it will be there
Frost
I’m currently reading the e-book version on my laptop and I’m on page 405 (broadcasting)
There is the full version and a summary version, check that you have downloaded correct version
Also some ‘kindle’ versions don’t work without being on a Kindle 🙂
@marcia and others –
You can see it on Youtube here –
link to youtube.com
It doesn’t actually start until about 11 minutes in, though.
Here’s a link
Yay! managed to order my copy, will wing it’s way within the next few weeks. Thanks to you all for the links… got mine ordered from 0131 556 8400 😀
Hmm, entire BBC World at One coverage of white paper launch: an interview with Alistair Carmichael havering on about how we should stay in the UK because we’d be able to help in disaster areas and something about a world stage. Clown. He’s going to get taken apart by Nicola tomorrow.
picture in my head of Alistair Darling hitting his head repeatedly of wall – murmuring f…uck. f…k. f…k -:)
Can anyone give me an interestng snippet from the paper that I can think about until home time 🙂
Anyone else suspect Nicola is gonna play rope-a-dope in this weeks argument and demand a Put up or shut up about the Currency Union issue. The more this Poker game plays out, the more Scots Govt sitting on a Full House and Better Together sitting with Mrs Bun the Bakers Wife. ( copyright Scotch & Wry)
Does anyone know if the White Paper is going to be sold in bookshops?
Here is a good article about the currency issue, might clear up a few things for undecideds.
link to scotsman.com
Video of this mornings press launch
link to m.youtube.com
Horacesaysyes & others
Merci
Comments section of the Telegraph full of frothing fear and loathing, over 400 so far.
One has to wonder what was so good about this 300 year Union when BBC reporters say the UK Government hasn’t taken off the kid gloves yet in getting tough, and they hadn’t even read the White Paper.
The most ‘successful’ Union in history, apparently, where it would seem we at no time contributed enough to deserve the slightest respect!
But I get it now; the right kind of people in Scotland dealt with the right kind of people in England, and it didn’t involve an of the other lesser types, except to do the work and fill the army.
I tried to listen to BBC Scotland online and it obviously couldn’t cope with the amount of traffic, all I heard was a word here and another there with minutes of “loading…” in between… (Other BBC online radio worked fine.)
I just hope BBC Democracy live will be able to cope with the amount of traffic during Nicola’s ministerial statemet in Holyrood this afternoon.
I know all Holyrood proceedings are available on the Parliament’s own website, but my computer setup and Holyrood streaming are incompatible for some reason. Holyrood TV crashes all my browsers 🙁
I tried very hard to get a live view of the press confi. but no luck cos everything anywhere was completely overloaded – good sign 😉
Many thanks to the Rev for the PDFs of the WP and Summary – you’ve probably saved a few dozen heart attacks by you’re quick thinking 🙂
After doing a quick read of the W-papers you’ve got to admit the SG has done what they needed to do.
I was a wee bit apprehensive that it would be a kind of civil servant, boring manifesto bromide inducing strain on the nerves. But it’s not, in fact it’s very well written.
670 pages nicely spread out in a logical form, each chapter giving the info required, charts etc and in a very readable way. There’s no need for an academic education to understand what is being explained. Everyone in Scotland should have no problems reading and understanding it. Copy ordered from 0131-556 8400 (SG) noooo hassle!
The WP is going to terrify BT and Westminster.
I think AS has run rings around NO/BT the last 10 days. First came Swinney’s Economic Report and the IFS knee-jerk reaction from BT – that drew the thorn away from a possible BT joker against the WP. Then he placed the press confi slap bang in the midlle of the SLAB heartland, Glasgow. And that with world-wide publicity. Finally a very readable WP.
It feels good to be Scottish 😉
Horacesaysyes & macdoc
Bless you! I missed the live launch. 😉
science centre this morning few of useturned up Gavins blog the guys from Renfrew anti bedroon tax, had a few choice words with Anus ( somebody give me a bit of paper & a blunt pincel wid you sign this anus, noised him up , he was in out in 5min
Jesus been on the BBC news website comments – have to say, it appears from the way things are worded that the English contributors have taken the huff with this and that really sad.
Maybe its fright or a new realisation of what’s happening but I think the First Minster is being set up as / laballed as a real hate character by the more extreme comments.
Having english relatives, I constantly defend the English take on this, but its starting to wear thin and seems this is now taking many of them by surprise.
How anyone who saw ‘Our frinds in the North’ does not get the blarin
g signposts of the ‘right way to go’ with this documentary is byond me. Even the similarities of the big neighbour Sweden were pointed out. Oil funds have been spoken of by the SNP since the 1990’s. I felt Alan Little did very well for an ex-pat (he was only doing his routine BBC job as Devil’s Advocate +, with the barbs at the end)
Come on undecided’s wake-up !; we can do this if you have the heart for it and the aspiration.
The status quo alternative is to scary to consider after all and why we are in this shit anyway (remember Iceland & Ireland are now emerging from their economic problems is UK ?)
Just ordered my hard copy think I might phone Westminster an order a copy of their ideas for the future UK, wonder if they will be as efficient Or have one.
Cochrane on sky news now……. spittle flecked doesn’t even come anywhere near it
Should UK government say definitively that Scotland will not be allowed to use sterling then it’s all over for UK. The currency markets would absolutely gut them! The arse would fall out of sterling. You don’t mess about with currencies. The World Bank, IMF would ostracise the UK government and the game would be up. If they just hint at it then that’s OK, that’s allowed but they must have given the nod to the big boys that that is their game plan. It’s a game of bluff and Eck being a gambler plays that game very well. Meanwhile we all have nightmares thinking about it. YES SCOTLAND!
Some of the vitriol being spouted currently over at link to bbc.co.uk is rather depressing.
Graduates of the Johann Lamont School of Debating methinks.
Live launch also still available on STV here:
link to news.stv.tv
I loved the way Alex and Nicola had sonsigned every page reference to memory. Do you think they had a little test last night? “What’s on page 620?” “Which page contains the reference to EU article 48?”…
Woops – looks like editing function has given up under the strain. Consigned. Consigned.
lumilumi
You might need to load Microsoft Silverlight ?
Anyone get the impression the SG and the tory government are looking at Better Together’s ranting and raving and downright lies like a person looks at a crazy person screaming and hollering in the street?
This currency union thing, surely they realise they have no leg to stand on? My god, the more I think about it, the more ludicrous the No campaign’s argument is.
Downloaded pdf courtesy of Herald,
link to heraldandtimeslabs.com
Now to read
Ministerial statement due in about 15 minutes …
link to scottish.parliament.uk
Downloaded. Book ordered as well. Lady of phone said she was having a VERY busy day….wonder why?
If further proof was ever needed that the BBC is the mouthpiece for No10 it was in today’s 1.00 pm news as Norman Smith – BBC Political Editor stood in front of the black door and barked out warnings with no shortage of feeling on behalf of Cameron and Osborne.
To realise that the publication of the WP happened only 3 hours prior, it’s fair to assume this party line was well thought through and if that’s the best ‘thought through’ line – then BT is in real trouble.
Now we have the pleasure of that well known pet BBC political commentator – ahem – psephologist extraordinaire Prof Curtice saying what the BBC want him to say and topping off with the comment/hope that the 2016 election in Scotland is not guaranteed to return an SNP government – some hope!
The old chestnut about Salmond being ‘smug’ is wearing awfy thin – the truth is, the man didn’t break sweat, and is clearly happy in his own skin. NS is just as composed. They make a good double-act, and BT have no-one even close.
Not long until we get Johann’s response…she’ll be getting ready in the canteen, curdling milk with the slightest glance…
Eeeek! Margaret Curran on BBC News talking about the ‘manifesto’. Nothing new here she says. We want facts!
@Barontorc
I have said before but is this Norman Smith guy actually a journalist? He seems to think his job is to be the mouthpiece for Number 10 Downing Street. Smith, are you a journalist or are you merely a propaganda lackey for the British state, and the No campaign?
from the Euronews website:
After 306 years of union with England and Wales Scotland today unveiled its blueprint for independence should Scots vote for it in next year’s referendum.
The Scottish government has produced a 670-page document outlining its vision for a future independent Scotland and the ruling Scottish National Party and First Minister Alex Salmond hope it will answer all the questions and doubts that have led to their “yes” vote campaign trailing in opinion polls.
The document addresses the economics of an independent nation of five million people, and it is money that has sapped the separatist’s cause as more and more people have raised doubts that an independent Scotland is economically viable.
Salmond hopes the SNP plan will be music to their supporters’ ears, and will convince the many undecided electors who will be crucial come the vote next September.
Copyright © 2013 euronews
@Ian Brotherhood says – They make a good double-act, and BT have no-one even close.
Actually can you picture the same type of event, but with Cameron and Osbourne?
Or worse – Lamont and Sarwar?
White Paper produced and it sadly seems Better Together are playing the denial card, What next, Johann Lamont exclaiming “Look, theres no squirrel!”
Fascinating to see the last paragraph of Alastair Carmichael’s statement on this on the guardian live blog,link to theguardian.com
“From now until September 18th we will keep making the positive case for the UK. It works well for Scotland. It gives us the best of both worlds. It offers us a better future. We will fight hard to preserve it against those who have been obsessed with independence for their entire political lives but now seek to disguise it.”
I would have thought the best way to disguise it would not be to hold a gigantic launch event and press conference!
Next will be the joint UK-Scottish government statement…
This blueprint in the white paper is a real red letter day for Scotland. The rUK must be green with envy.
Luigi says
“The world is watching, Johann. Better not make an arse of it.”
So no pressure the Joanne eh?
Aye the plonker Carbunkle will fight hard to try and keep him and his unionist ilk in the trough at wastemonster………bad news for him and bitter together is that there lies have a habit of finding them out.
Only had time to digest the summary so far but from what I can see it is going to instil quite a degree of envy among people in rUK. In that regard the No campaign’s threat of putting up border controls could well ring true – to prevent the huge surge of people in England heading north to a better life in a fairer, more equal and prosperous nation…
Holyrood debate is on radio BBC Scotland now.
Supposed to be packing for a visit to Aus to see number one daughter but having an absolute blitz of a day watching WP launch, reading on Wings , blethering to brother about WP laughing at the antics of Bitter T. What a blast of a day! also have ordered my copy of this historic document. Woo Hoo!
Cant help but wish we had Johann, Ruth and Wullie really going gung-ho about currency union and Nicola or Alex turn round and say “Here, theres 50p, go phone your boss and ask him your parties thoughts?…we can wait”
Stairheid Lamont is speaking, and is as bitter as always.
Ian Brotherhood says
“Not long until we get Johann’s response…she’ll be getting ready in the canteen, curdling milk with the slightest glance…”
Thats an Idea Ian , when she loses her job at Holyrood she could get a job making Yoghurt 🙂
Ian Brotherhood
Jeez, the Gruniad’s heaving with very grumpy people today. The opposition tub thumpers are out in force and they’re no happy.
I don’t think I’ve enjoyed masel’ so much in ages. 😀
Nicola Sturgeon has surely made her case for First Minister of our independent Scotland. Great performance!
Wow, Nicola Sturgeon is on fire. A superb performance in the chamber.
Big Union Jack appeared sometime overnight at the bottom of the road, attached to a telephone mast next to the Glasgow/Ayrshire rail line. Someone thinks the debate is about flags lol..
@John King –
‘…when she loses her job at Holyrood she could get a job making Yoghurt.’
Aye. Lamont-Lites, soor-ploom flavour.
Jackie Bailie asking “is it not true?”…
A few personal observations after Alex Salmond’s and Nicola Sturgeon’s performances today.
Firstly, wasn’t it great seeing Scotland getting so much of the media’s attention
We have been told in the past that they might be okay when dealing with the Scottish media, but that the big boys and girls from out with our land would tear then to shreds, today, collectively they had their chance and it didn’t happen, I have also now come to the conclusion that some of the real names in the media world are over hyped, some of the questions were plain dumb.
I tried to picture Johan Lamont and Anas Sarwar delivering something of the same depth but my imagination wasn’t up to it!
Alistair Darling came across as a fool who through desperation lost that nice cool image that he likes to try and show, when giving his opinions after the event, he couldn’t help attacking the First Minister personally, I think he can sense defeat, the reasons being that he knows that on behalf of the YES campaign, the answers have been delivered, whether folk like them or not, or say they have or not and inevitably the spotlight must turn on the NO campaign to answer the questions it has been avoiding, such as, given that even they say that YES could win, they now have to tell us what they will do regarding monetary union , when they know that the rUk economy can’t take the hit of losing Scotland’s share of the economy and David Cameron, as Salmond kept reminding folk, has signed up to do the best for those who will be represented by a British government, how can they avoid agreeing when it’s in their best interests?
For the same reasons they are now going to have to abandon their stupid no pre-negotiations stance and tell us what they would be prepared to give in the event of a NO vote, given that the various unionist parties have commissions set up to investigate this, I believe that we can rely on them coming back with at least three sets of answers and of course they will also have to answer the question why they couldn’t set up one commission between them as partners should be able to do and as they did with the Calman Commission.
It will soon be our turn to bat and they, as they are already aware aren’t going to like it, it will be their response or lack of, it to these questions and the myriad others that these will bring to mind that I believe will lead to our victory.
Cant wait for Thursday night on BBC now…
Question Time from Falkirk which will see some Scottish labour ( but never Johann Lamont) going ape and ranting at every opportunity about those damn seperatists and their common sense socialist ideas
then
This Week, where Michael Portillo and some rejected Labour bod announce their moments of the week are “William Hague getting a seat in the Iran talks” and “Ed Miliband and Ed Balls at a drinks photo shoot sharing a Bishops Finger”.
None so blind….
Does Iain Gray honestly believe that anyone with a mortgage (debt) should never contribute to a pension (future savings) scheme?
Thank you for providing the download links. Will enjoy reading this. 🙂
Off-topic: Just in case anyone is interested, MSN has put up a timeline asking “Would Scottish Independence change the UK, or make little difference?”, where there seems to be quite a lot of rubbish being spouted.
link to facebook.com
A rocket from Patrick Harvie!! Whoosh…
Ma Dad thought Norman Smith was a Govt spokesman.He came up the stairs and goes ‘that’s Westminster categorically ruled it out,boy from Downing live on the Telly just said.’
This afternoons debate – Dumb comment of the session has to be Ian Gray.
“You say you’ll establish an oil fund – but you don’t say where the money will come from”
🙂
g.p
Does anyone remember Monty Python’s Black Knight fight (Holy Grail)?
BT’s arms have just been chopped off, but hey ho, they are still winning!
(wait until the legs go, it won’t be pretty).
Ordered my copy via phone number provided by Heraldnomore. Had to hold for about 10mins ’til phone was answered but got there in the end and no cost or p+p. Superb. So excited.
Now getting ready to hand out leaflets at Waverley Station from 5.00.
Onwards and upwards – the fight really starts today 🙂
The hatred on some of those Labour faces!
Sturgeon heavily hinting that Malcolm Chisholm supports independence.
Just ordered my copy from the Scottish Government. I’m so proud of the independence movement, and Alex and Nicola were fantastic today.
Been really enjoying the SPEED READING. It shows how cowardly, stupid or complicit the media are if none of them are calling out the politicians and other commentators claiming to have read a mammoth document in impossibly fast times and commenting on it, even in interviews. Beyond absurd and insulting. This shows the mainstream media is failing Scotland again. It cannot be trusted to do its job.
The title of this thread is Scotlands Future…Im sitting here beaming with pride after receiving a mail from my daughter which reads
“I’ve posted it(summary.pdf) on my Facebook wall to spread the word!”
Very, very strong performance from Nicola Sturgeon this afternoon, I thought.
She and AS have both showed up well in the media glare, and the MSM will have their work cut out to hide that.
robert Louis: Totally agree.
Sturgeon played a blinder in the parliament this afternoon. Brilliant utterly competent and on these occasions equal to AS .
Lamont brushed aside as were the rest.
Agree – Ian Gray’s comment must be written down in stone for future generations
A need a bike so am gonnae sell ma pool table – ” but how will ye fund it ?”
Nicola and Alex in a stand out performance today. Unshaken by all and sundry and Darling left looking like an eejit trying to pass comment on a document he hasn’t even read yet.
For the visitor:
Whatever else happens people, read this document. Even if its just the summary version, get your hands on a copy and read it. This for you, not the politicians, not the media FOR YOU. And don’t let any bastard tell you you’re not up to understanding the facts or figures. That’s bullshit from start to finish. Use your common sense and your own life experience. Use your judgement and the evidence of your own eyes about how we live today.
OT
If you can drag yourself away from football…
Business for Scotland with Ivan Mckee, Michelle Thomson and Eric McLean are doing a live stream presentation tonight from 8pm, “The Economic Case for Independence”.
Please like and share…
LIVESTREAM: new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive
link to facebook.com
Exploring Independence after the White Paper
link to futureukandscotland.ac.uk
There are places still available! I’m not familiar with many of the academics – I have a horrible feeling that this is not going to be particularly balanced: especially with the lovely Brian Taylor chairing it all…
So proud of Alex and Nicola today, there professional manner when asked a plethora of questions from all angles, was masterful, yet graceful.
I felt extra proud to be Scottish today, and a huge wave of optimism passed over me with regards to Scotlands future.
I’d also like to add, that Nicola Sturgeon was fantatsic in Parlialment today, rebutting every single negative question posed by the canny dae it mob.
Finally at last plenty of media coverage for the YES case, although I’d imagine the coverage was in the hope of shooting the whitepaper down.
well done folks, sent link for printable summary of the 670 page tome to my sis in the U.S., I like the graphics and the underlying theme is we can do better! Of course we can. cheers.
Nicola Sturgeon outside Holyrood just now with some complete numpty standing behind her waving a union jack in the peeing rain, hes a wee bit in the distance so cant tell for sure but looks like hes far too slim to be Blair MacDougall…
I have watched the different TV programs talking over the document, all interviewed who are in the vast majority, anti Independence. So all as expected up to now, lots of negatives by the usual suspects. I guess that is just what we all expected to come about.
Ref the currency, which is a major obstacle to Indy according to the naysayers, would it not be that Alex Salmond should send an open and VERY public letter to David Cameron and make a blunt request ” Will we have a currency Union, or not? ” and if not, we will make other arrangements, starting now, and that is NOT a bluff. We WILL and can, make other arrangements, we therefore suggest you use your words carefully, dear sir”
Nicola Sturgeon gave a brilliant performance in the Chamber, agree with the person who posted that she will make an excellent First Minister.
Always impressed by Patrick Harvie, hope he’s involved in the Team Scotland talks and negotiations.
Best laugh was from Iain Gray though: “where’s the money going to come from to set up an Oil Fund?” What a guy.
Patrick Harvie saying he would gladly give up Trident for more Childcare….Babies not Bombs…brilliant!
you know folks i think it’s time we started to compare some notes on what might be called Better Together’s practical response, they promised an avalanche of activists giving out their leaflets, starting today at railway stations everywhere, anybody notice much response from them?
Just ordered a full copy from a very nice lady on the phone.. took less than 2 min.
They couldn’t give a timescale but pointed me to the web site to read it and put me on the mailing list..
I’m guessing that the first print run has been snapped up.
Have not seen the launch or any of the interview/debates as I’ve been working. But, from what I have read a great launch has been performed and the inane screaming of No Scotland is becoming shriller by the minute.
GOOD!
I haven’t seen the Better Together and anti-Scotland trolls so busy in a long time. I notice little of it addresses the document or the performance of AS and NS and just about all of it is ranty, foamy rage….this is good, a sign of a very successful launch 🙂
There were no Bitter Ones at Central Station when I went through about 9am this morning.
Taken this exchange from Stuart’s Twitter feed:
Frankie Boyle
I’d suggest that a good time for Scottish people to decide how the Union is working for them is while they’re freezing to death this winter
Martin Young
Yes perhaps they’ll choose to bask in the eternal equatorial sunshine of an independent state
Frankie Boyle
Perhaps they’ll be denied the irony of freezing to death in an oil rich country you dense c**t
Nuff said.
Frankie in mellow form I see
🙂
@Luigi 3.06pm
It isn’t their arms we’ve cut off Luigi, it’s their balls.
Away to Waverley Station to hand out White Paper leaflets. Be interesting to see how many BT folk are there.
It isn’t their arms we’ve cut off Luigi, it’s their balls.
When did they grow a pair?
The ConDems policies are neglecting the elderly.
The Press coverage was OK. Some MSM were better than the usual doomsayers.
What a day – the whole World media looking on as the most competent First Minister and Deputy First Minister speak to Scotland, the rUK and the World . It was said before – this is it begun for real, now we all have the ammunition to convert one person each to YES. So proud to be a Scotsman
Away to Waverley Station to hand out White Paper leaflets.
Where did you get those from?
Just ordered my copy – the very nice lady on the phone said she’d had ‘a busy day’, but she sounded like she’d enjoyed it!
Off to catch up on the launch and other videos now… 😀
This has been a very good day, excellent launch and a great platform. Both Alex Salmond and especially Niocola Sturgeon were in top form and to my own surprise the unionists have been in complete disarray. None of them landed a single punch with some knocking themselves out – Alistair Darling hit the canvas in the first round, and Nick Robinson produced a haymaker that missed by a mile.
Whoever came up with a section devoted to Q&A deserves a raise, brilliant idea. All we need do is quote a number in responding to the naysayers.
Nicola was brilliant in Parliament today!
The BBC Democracy Live live stream froze a couple of times, mostly during Willie Rennies question, so I don’t think I missed much 😀 (Edward, I have Silverlight but for some reason the Scottish Parliament live stream just doesn’t work on my computer.)
Finland’s biggest daily Helsingin Sanomat (HS) also noted this landmark. We don’t usually get much news from Scotland in the Finnish MSM, and most of it is from the British MSM as the few correspondents are based in London.
Anyway, here’s a quick translation of the HS story.
link to hs.fi
Devolved government wants Scottish independence by March 2016
“Scotland’s future is now in Scotland’s hands,” Scotland’s First Minister [HS actually uses a phrase that would translate as ‘Leader of the devolved government’] Alex Salmond declared with a smile on Tuesday in Glasgow.
Scotland will vote on independence on 18 September next year, and on Tuesday, the devolved government, run by the nationalist SNP party, published its long-awaited independence white paper, 670-pages long.
The SNP wants Scotland to become independent on 24 March 2016.
According to the devolved government, this is what an independent Scotland would look like:
Scotland would keep the English pound. Queen Elizabeth II would remain Head of State.
An independent Scotland would get rid of the British nuclear deterrent, Trident, as soon as possible. The base for the missles used by the nuclear submarines is in Faslane, western Scotland.
The Scottish army would have 15,000 professional soldiers and 5,000 reserves.
Scotland wishes to remain a member of the EU. The model would be Sweden, which has kept the krona [the Swedish currency]
North Sea oil and gas reserves provide a strong foundation for the economy but Salmond says reneweable resources must also be developed.
Salmond has no intention of raising the basic rate of tax although the UK Treasury warns that the residents of an independent Scotland might have to pay 1,000 pounds per year more in taxes. The other alternative, according to the UK government, which is against independence, is to cut public spending.
Next September, four million Scottish voters will be asked a simple question: “Should Scotland be an independent country?”
16- and 17-year-old Scottish residents will also be able to vote in the referendum.
At least for now, polls forecast a defeat to the independence front. In many polls only about a third of residents have backed independence.
However, according to a poll published by the Sunday Times last weekend, the fronts are surprising close. The No side lead the pro-independece side only by 9 percentage points, 47 to 38.
The referendum will probably be decided on economy: can Scotland afford independence?
According to the devolved government, it can. It emphasizes that Scotland is one of the richest areas in the world.
Right after the launch, the campaign against independence criticised the devolved government for promises that cannot be kept, according to the anti-independists.
According to the UK government’s Scottish Affairs Minister Alistair Carmichael, a currency union would not work.
Scotland’s EU membership is also still full of questions. Most probably, Scotland would need to reapply for membership. The terms for independent Scotland’s acceptance into the EU is not clear.
Scotland now has a devolved administration that decides on issues such as education, health and justice.
Scotland was given a devolved Parliament in 1999, and the general election in 2011 returned Salmond’s SNP with an absolute majority.
The main British parties, the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats – which are in minority in the Scottish Parliament – are all against Scotland’s independence aspirations.
As you can see, the HS correspondent is not that well-informed about Scottish affairs, there are inaccuracies such as the “English pound”, but I’m glad to get at least some Scottish news in the Finnish MSM.
HS’s previous stories on Scotland (as given below the article translated above) were the Wellington cone (13.11.2013), Scotland “stealing” the swamp football world championships from Finland (2.7.2013) and independence referendum in 2014 (15.10.2012).
At the time of writing (4.21pm) there were four comments, all generally supportive of Scottish independence, though full of silly and ill-informed ideas, such as “the use of the pound and the queen depends on the will of the English parliament” 😀
(How do you use a queen, anyway?)
Sorry for the long post (again), but I thought some of you WoS readers might be interested in how this is seen/reported abroad.
Anus just on Aljazeera giving a interview, he was in the science centre for all of 5 min, the footage must have been taken near the bbc
Does it say in the 600-odd pages of the white paper how much the cost of a stamp will be in an independent Scotland? If not then Darling’s tick just got worse 🙂
Desimond:
Patrick Harvie saying he would gladly give up Trident for more Childcare….Babies not Bombs…brilliant!
“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.”
A Chance for Peace, [D Eisenhower 1953]
We have a chance for peace, on 18th September 2014
Can’t resist copying these questions posed to Mr Carcmichael on his blog by David Wilson. Seems to me we could well use some of them:
Some questions I would like you to answer as you are a UK government minister.
Can you guarantee that pensions will rise in the UK above the rate of inflation for the next 20 years ?
Can you guarantee that the UK will still be in Europe beyond 2017 ?
Will tuition fees in UK universities (outside Scotland of course) ever be reversed by the Lib Dems or are they here to stay forever ?
Can you guarantee that a living age will be introduced in the UK that goes beyond a minimum wage and actually allows people a chance to feed themselves properly ?
Can you guarantee that the UK government will properly reform the banks by splitting retail and commercial banking activities appropriately ?
Can you guarantee that all personal UK taxes will not increase over the next 20 years ?
As the US Government (Federal Reserve) has now been fully repaid it’s total £600bn emergency bail out loans of UK banks (kept very quiet in the UK media) can you confirm that UK taxpayers will be reimbursed fully for our £70bn bail out ?
Can you guarantee that the vanity project HS2 will not cost anymore than the ridiculous £50bn now being estimated ?
Can you guarantee that the Trident replacement will not cost the UK taxpayer more than the £100bn in total costs during it’s lifetime ?
What will happen to the Barnett Formula if a ‘No’ vote is returned in next years Scottish referendum and will you lay out this clearly to Scottish tax payers before the vote takes place ?
Why have Scottish farmers been swindled out of ten’s of million’s of pounds in European funding that will see Scottish farmers have the lowest subsidies in the whole of Europe, and even below the rates given for other UK nations ?
How do you plan to pay off the National Debt, currently rocketing towards £1.5T, or £20k for every man, woman and child of these islands ?
With HMS Illustrious on duty in the Philippines and HMS Ocean in dock for a refit, the UK currently has not aircraft carriers currently on active duty to protect our shores. Why are you putting our security at risk especially when you government colleagues are weekly telling us in Scotland of the great military threats to our nation ?
Why do you keep referring to Scotland as ‘they’ or ‘she’ during media interviews ? Is it important for you to disassociate yourself from your constituency and a wider Scotland ?
Are the LIb Dems planning to release a comprehensive ‘Home Rule’ document for Scotland that will clearly outline the steps and measures you will take in the event of a ‘No’ vote in the referendum that clearly outlines your position on tax raising powers, welfare, business and so on before the referendum ? Or do we have to wait another century ?
It seems only fair that as you ask similar questions of the SNP and Yes campaign in Scotland, that you as a current UK government minister would only be too happy to respond similar questions.
On page 120 so far. I have to say, the cursory summaries from the media and politicians on both sides are not doing this thing justice!
There are some fantastic ideas, such as worker representation on the boards of companies (as in Germany). A research and development fund (as per Finland). A living wage scheme for private companies. A review of the number of women on the boards of large companies, with a view to future legislation (as per Norway and France).
It seems that when there is a new policy it has either been researched or it has been taken from the best practice of another nation. This is the best thing about Scotland starting from scratch – we can take the best of all possible worlds from real life examples in other nations. A real chance to build something fantastic!
Two Ferry boys asking questions today, both of them obvious Unionists. I can understand the High School FP being that way inclined, but why the Grove FP? Does he just feel that he should have gone to the High and his natural home is amongst the right wing Tories? I’m referring to Peter Jones and Alan Cochrane, of course.
Copy ordered from booksource.net. Some 80’s looking bloke called Hartmann is spouting crap on BBC News. Sad. Haha, now Forsyth, hilarious foreigner.
Just finished watching the video; what an ungracious bunch those hacks are not to manage a wee clap of appreciation when they’ve just been given free reign to pile in with their questions. Maybe they’re cheesed off at not laying a glove on the FM and DFM.
Douglas Fraser sounded very bitter on Radio Scotland today. Every fact/item, every bit of good news mentioned about the White Paper was tainted with a little snide remark. It sounded awful. The poor man just couldn’t control himself.
Class from Patrick Harvie , (now available with more hair)
I wonder who he was glowering at across the chamber before he gave his ‘gladly give up Trident for more Childcare….Babies not Bombs’
What gets me is, he is saying something that Labour should be saying.
Patrick definitely stood out from the crowd this afternoon
Macwhirter on BBC Scotland radio. Not over impressed with childcare for the woman’s vote and basing the campaign on it. Going for the weakness in the YES campaign and hoping to strengthen it.
The youtube vid of the launch appears to have been ‘pulled’, are there any other sources that I can watch?
What Patrick said is what Lamont and Co if they were true to their own hearts should be sayibng but they have sold their heritage for a mess of pottage.
I read the Finnish report on here, any other International reports I could be pointed to ? Noticed that no International reporters asked questions at the launch, just the UK Unionist media’s usual naysayers.
@ Les Wilson
I had a quick look around the Nordic press. Dagens Nyheter (one of the main Swedish dailies) had nothing but Svenska Dagbladet (another of the main dailies in Sweden) has this piece:
link to svd.se
The headline reads:
Scotland wants to remain in the EU
and then:
Scotland wants to remain in the EU if it becomes independent in a couple of years. And Queen Elizabeth would remain the monarch, according to plans revealed today.
For the rest of the text, you have to wait a while, translating between Swedish and English (both foreign languages to me) takes a while… 😀
@kininvie
I’ve asked Mr Carmichael when he’s going to answer David Wilson’s questions. I’m in moderation. I expect it’s because I forgot to put in a question mark.
@ Les Wilson
Norway’s second largest paper Aftenposten (tabloid) has this:
link to aftenposten.no
(The picture comes from their coverage of the indy march&rally in September)
Headline:
So would an independent Scotland work in practice
And:
The SNP presented a 670-page blueprint on how an independent Scotland would work.
A translation of the rest of the text might take quite long as I don’t actually really know Norwegian but being fluent in Swedish I can understand the gist of the article at first, quick reading.
It’s mainly positive but highlights EU membership and possible difficulties (Barroso gets a mention) and Alistair Darling gets a doom and gloom quote towards the end (“This changes nothing. The paper is a piece of fiction”), the IFS report is mentioned.
Førsteminister Salmond’s views on currency, EU and NATO are given much more and prominent room than Darling’s rantings.
Tinyzeitgeist
It hasn’t been pulled
Postimees, the biggest Estonian daily has this:
link to postimees.ee
Estonian is closely related to Finnish but not as mutually intelligible as Swedish (which I know) and Norwegian. I can get the gist of most of it, however. The caption reads:
Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond and his deputy Nicola show off the plan for Scotland’s future.
I have real trouble with the headline, I think it’s something like “Scotland reveals plans on how to achieve independence” but I don’t understand one key word (hakkama) so I might be wrong.
The article goes on to say that Scotland’s First Minister today revealed detailed plans on how an independent Scotland would work. A referendum in 2014 will decide whether Scotland continues as a part of the United Kingdom or goes independent. Then:
“Scotland’s future is now in Scotland’s hands”, said Salmond when presenting the 670-page white paper. “Not in mine, not in our opponents, not in the media’s, but in the hands of the people.”
Then there’s a bit how the paper gives detailed plans on monetary, fiscal, social and (defence?)
Something about the leader of the SNP (Šoti Rahvuspartei juht) Salmond and something I really can’t decipher, then something about the great oil and gas reserves.
Then, I think, it says that the Brittish government actively supports the No-campaign. Something about polls and about (?) a third of Scottish voters polled… something… rest of the United Kingdom (rUK in Estonian is ülejäänud Ühendkuningriik, literally “leftover UK” :-D).
The next paragraph I can translate fairly accurately:
England and Scotland united politically in 1707. Even now Scotland has considerable autonomy.
Next the article gives examples of the many ideas in the white paper, I think currency union, oil and gas, 90 percent of which are in Scottish waters, the Bank of England remaining Scotland’s central bank (and something about national debt, I think). Business tax lowered by three percent, minimum wage tied to inflation. And independent Scotland won’t… (I don’t understand the next bit about tuumarelvad).
Next bit I can translate:
Scotland will have its own defence forces and intelligence service.
Then : Scotland will remain in NATO and the EU, and keep nearly 90 embassies or consulates around the world.
Queen Elizabeth will remain Head of State and there will be a new constitution.
All three- and four-year-olds will have the right to 30-hours of daycare (per week).
The last sentence, I think, is something about the BBC (stations/channels) being the basis for a new Scottish broadcaster.
OK, somebody who actually knows Estonian will probably trash this resume of mine. 😀
But it’s great that to see that today Scotland has been noticed abroad!
To add to the above: Tuumarelvad is something to do with nuclear weapons, so the Estonian paper wrote about that. Not sure, what, though 😀
Got the download and ordered the hard copy.
What a momentous day for our ancient land.
Onwards and upwards.
Those that say that they haven’t made up their minds on how to vote because the don’t have enough facts. No excuses are acceptable anymore. Just down load a readily available copy of the White Paper and start digesting and ignore all the nay saysers and make up your own mind.
@faolie
Son just came in and said he’d seen leafleters at Waverley. He was offered a leaflet and didn’t take one …….not because he’s against indy but because he knew he would get one at home. Just thought I’d say…it can be so disheartening when somebody turns down a leaflet.
Back home from handing out the pocket guide to the White Paper and Yes Scotland newspaper at Waverley Station. Never done anything like that before and was quite surprised that most people, hurrying home in the cold, were quite receptive to taking one and some commenting that they knew of the WP’s release and would catch up at home.
The rudest and most brusque refusals were the definite Nos and a fair few said to keep the paper etc as they didn’t need the info as they would definitely be voting Yes.
Now that I’ve thawed out, I feel I nice warm glow about our future. 🙂
I know this hasnt much to do with the white paper but is anyone else thinking that the reason why Darling is banging the big drum for union is he has probably been promised his old job back or at least a key position back in the Labour cabinet in event of a No vote and a Labour election win. Its something that I’ve been thinking is reason why he is like a rottweiler with a bone trying to damage Yes Camp
@lumilumi
Thank you for your work in bringing what the Nordic Press has reported to us. Isn’t a shame that a lot of people will be looking at their atlas to see where one of the oldest countries in the world is.
Just thought I’d say…it can be so disheartening when somebody turns down a leaflet.
It’s OK if the person takes the trouble to say why. I had a voter refuse an election leaflet because she would definitely be voting for me, and had read the summary in the local paper. Don’t waste a leaflet on me! Then she went on to say how strongly she supported independence.
Made my day.
Positive report on launch from Russia Today news bulletins with great background shots from the march for Independence through Edinburgh on 21st September. The world is starting to take notice
Lumi tack sa hemskt mycket for din arbete 😉
Det var och den latar jatte bra
@lumilumi
It is really interesting to see how other countries are reporting the indyplan, thanks for all the info.
I copied and pasted a few of the articles into google translate which worked really well and only takes seconds, it seems to give a pretty accurate translation. Others who are interested can find it at link to translate.google.com
@ Gaavster
You mean: den låter jättebra! (Oh, the joys of a Scandinavian keyboard with å, ä and ö! :-D)
(Oh, and it’s actually ditt arbete, but I’m not a grammar nazi. When I speak Swedish I always shorten the words (“swallow the endings”) to avoid the en/ett thingy and I’m perfectly undestood anyway. 😀 )
I won’t bother with translating the Svenska Dagbladet thing, if, as Mary Bruce above says, Google translate can give a fairly OK idea of what it says. (Probably as good as my summary of the Estonian piece! 😀 )
@lumi
Jag ar inte sa flyttande nu sa lange men du har helt ratt, mitt grammar ar inte so bra 😉
Men, I mitt defense, jag flyttad darifran for 13 ar sedan…
Tack igen 😉
Hej, Gaavster, du e helt flytande, ja förstår allt du skiver. Och mi’ grammatik e int så bra heller 😀
@Gaavster
Bra…same as Scots ‘braw’ or Gaelic ‘Breagha’.
Sgoineal a charaidean.
Exactly the same RB, pronounced braw 😉
I find Swedish very close to auld Scots
Hus = hoose
Ut = oot
Mycket = muckle
Flyttad = flitted
Barn = bairn
And on and on…
That’s how I learned, I lived there for 5 years and when I listened I thought in Scots and things started making sense 😉
@ The Rough Bounds & Gaavster
I had a Scottish lecturer at uni and she was teaching us Burns’s poetry and explained “difficult” Scots words like kirk and mirk, and we, Finnish students who all knew Swedish, were puzzled. It was obvious to us that they were kyrka and mörk, no explanation needed.
Learning Swedish, in addition to at least one “foreign” language, such as English or German, French, whatever (Swedish is not classified as a “foreign” language as it’s the other national language, for historical reasons) is compulsory in Finland. I think it’s a bit of a waste of time and resources to teach Swedish to everybody. It should be made elective but perhaps doing a Higher in Swedish should be kept as uni entry requirement.
I’m glad I learned Swedish in school, and I have mostly lived in partly Swedish-speaking areas in Finland so it’s very normal for me to speak the two national languages. It also gives me access to Norwegian and Danish.
I did German in school, and obviously English. That helps me to get the gist of the (Flemish) daily papers when I visit my brother in Brussels. I can even make out some French because the English language is so full of French (or Latin) words.
Most of all I’m glad I speak Finnish because hardly anybody can understand it. Me ollaan tosi erityisiä ja ainutlaatuisia! (We’re very special and unique.)
@luigi, @jeannie
We were supposed to be handing out the pocket guide to the White Paper at Waverley but unfortunately they weren’t ready in time, so we had to make do with a Yes Scotland postcard and a newspaper.
Great turnout of supporters though. If anyone’s thinking of joining in but hasn’t so far, do it. It’s just great to meet the cross-section of ordinary folk cheerfully committed to the cause 🙂
I remember when I went abroad for the first time, to Holland, and my mother said, if you’re stuck speak Scots and there’s a good chance they’ll understand you.
She had a story of when she was singing in either the Hague or Copenhagen, and she asked someone the way to the stage door, and the answer was “richt doon roon back”.
Crickey there’s 112 pages of ‘Scotland in the European Union ‘ appeared now.
Hmmm, the spanish prime minister has just thrown a spanner in the works on EU membership? What’s the back up plan now that an EU member blatantly does not agree with the wild assertions of the SNP?
Just received my paper copy of White Paper today
Got my copy of the White Paper on Thursday.
Started to work my way through. Some interesting reading so far.