Making your mind up
Posted on
January 21, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary. (More)
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A tall tale
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Transphobia
Did Anas Sarah write that leaflet? He’s got a different answer to the same question for each day of the week.
Yet another two reasons to vote YES
Well, ‘as we know it’ includes Scotland. It’s not wrong, logically speaking, is it. Just pish.
There’s a simple known unknown in the pamphlet.
“Independence is the end of the United Kingdom as we know it” Correct.
“The UK would still go on without Scotland” Correct
Where “UK” = Unknown Kingdom.
Woops! Sarwar, I meant.
I have just watched The Referendum Debate (coming from Greenock)
Alex Massie pretending to be unbiased and undecided.
Sarwar pretending to be honest.
Hislop pretending to debate
And some comedian pretending he knew something about politics.
As for the audience, apart from a few that managed to speak out, they were pretending to be informed.
What a disaster this country is turning out to be. Scotland really is too stupid. I’d blame Westminster brainwashing, but really it’s about the people getting off their backsides and getting informed about the whole debate.
Tonights programme was one complete pile of ignorance and I am disgusted.
We need a real debate with real people, not liars, comedians and pretentious tory bloggers.
I set the recorder for the debate but as usual cocked it up (where are all the ten year olds when you need ’em?).
Is it on IPlayer?
“The UK would still go on without Scotland”
Is this leaflet not for people in EW & NI?
0/10 – See Me – (in red pen!)
“And works well.”
What kind of a sentence is that? It demonstrates the sacrifice of structure to try to convey speech on paper.
Please hire a new proofreader, if only for the sake of my sanity. And no, I’m not a teacher.
@Scottish_skier
Did you see the poll on STV tonight. I think it is that Social Attitudes poll.
Ericmac:
If this is what the BBC plan to have as “debates” during the campaign then the people of Scotland will end up no wiser afterwards than they were before.
If I was a cynic I would suggest that it looks suspiciously like this outcome was what the BBC and their chums in Project Fear wanted.
@Ericmac
Tonights programme was one complete pile of ignorance and I am disgusted.
It strikes me that this is the response which the BBC in Scotland was looking for.
The audience was vetted. What did you expect?
I dont watch TV, cos I don’t pay the TV tax… what was the Greenock, BBC debate programme called, so I can get in on iplayer or youtube? Thanks in advance.
As usual – Better Together say one thing in public and then another thing in public.
So Prof. Curtis slips from STV studios to BBC Newsnight with his doom and gloom . Is he the only Academic that they can find to discuss the Referendum ! It’s absolutely shameful !
The statements are of course contradictory but only one of them is true.
“Independence is the end of the United Kingdom as we know it”
Anybody any complaints?
I said this on the previous thread but I see the Social Attitudes poll pretty much ignores the ballot paper and still runs with a Devo Max option. That is fair enough but we already know there is a roughly equal three way split. Devo Max is not on the table. We need to ensure the Devo Max supporters realise that and take the most logical second option for them which is independence.
I still think the reason muppets like Curtis are including Devo Max is that it might become a unionist emergency fall back for when they think they are about to lose
@Scottish_skier
Link to those poll results from ScotCen and Prof Curtis.
link to blog.whatscotlandthinks.org
Can someone tell me what hyslop said that has got BBC news and Sarwar jumping up and down over on BBC Scotland website?
Alba4Eva says:
“what was the Greenock, BBC debate programme called”
link to bbc.co.uk
Hardly worth the bother Alba4Eva. Not a great debate.
Thanks Sticks.
Just made a wee post on Curtis ‘the only pollster in the wests’ blog.
link to blog.whatscotlandthinks.org
Ps. Im Bongobrian on the Disqus thingy.
Alba4eva
link to bbc.co.uk
And of course any others…
I think the problem AnSa has is that he says one thing in a sentence and another in the same sentence.
Let’s be realistic here. What we saw there tonight was a reflection of:
1) Where the uninformed public are at (Sanjeev Kholi) – uninformed, not taken the time took into it, open to a good argument but politically lazy.
2) where the informed public are at (the audience) – calling Anas’ bullshit for what it is, able to cut to the salient facts and points. Passionate, persuasive, and turning Yes rapidly.
3) Where the politicians are (Anas, Fiona, Alex – who is the Scottish Tory voice there) – well-entrenched battle grounds, able to lose punters’ interest quickly.
4) where the BBC thinks the debate is at – low info, first pass at the big issues, missing the key points, patronising Burns question to wrap up.
That’s our fight now – to turn the “Kholis” into “audience members” and leave the politicians to the BBC game.
Many thanks Alan… also, that was a nice example why no one needs to pay for the BBC and still always get to see what they are interested in. I actually found a BBC page that said it would be available a week after broadcast. Obviously change of mind at the BBC then. Sticks mibbes right, but if I fall asleep during it at this hour, then happy da… nights 🙂
The Penman – spot on. I reckon any undecided voter watching tonight would have noticed that the informed audience members were all pro-Yes and the dimwits were all No. Not only that, but there was a variety of folk who were for Yes, whereas all the No folk seemed to be old baldy stuck-up blokes.
I dunno what people are expecting – the pro-indy audience members got a very fair crack at the whip tonight. You can hardly expect them to have NO unionist dunces asking stuff. Let’s be realistic about this – the BBC and co are not simply going to say “hey, let’s have a whole audience of Yes voters!”
The Penman says:
“That’s our fight now – to turn the “Kholis” into “audience members” and leave the politicians to the BBC game.”
Pretty good analysis Penman.
Disappointed in Khohli. Didn’t he say he was pro indy at the rally in Edinburgh? He certainly came across that way. Maybe just my failing memory.
@Alba4Eva
Nice one. 😉
Also, maybe worth pointing out that while the media does rely on Curtice FAR too much, there was at least a fairly good reason for him being on both programmes tonight – it was the annual Scottish Attitudes Survey which he presides over.
Of course, you could easily argue that this is actually an argument for NOT having him on, since he’s hardly going to he objective about his own research…
X-Sticks – that was his brother, Hardeep.
X Sticks
That was his brother
O/T
Hi I am a rather regular lurker here and YES voter, on the subject of BBC debates I am due to attend the one being recorded tomorrow at Dundee for Question Time, I know…….Anyway I appear to have to supply two questions which may or may not be used. I was considering one might be, “What if any new powers is the Scottish Parliament GUARANTEED if we vote no?”
This is probably a less than cunning plan but was hoping it might expose false promises etc. No idea why I got selected, possibly because I am a woman/SNP voter? Anyhow any other suggestions?
“This is probably a less than cunning plan but was hoping it might expose false promises etc. No idea why I got selected, possibly because I am a woman/SNP voter? Anyhow any other suggestions?”
I agree that your current question will just elicit a load of evasion, waffle, outright lies and no solid or useful information. I suggest this instead:
“Does the panel agree that independence would massively revitalise Scottish politics, and if not why not?”
That’s short and punchy (which QT likes), a real bugger for Labour and the Tories to argue against (because they’d have to say, in essence, “We’re shit now and we wouldn’t get any better”), not overly partisan, and it takes the focus away from “independence = SNP”, encouraging people to think about the exciting possibilities of a whole new, distinctively Scottish, situation. People are scunnered with politics at the moment, offer them something fresh and they’ll perk up.
The problem is that when you just make it all up, it can be devilishly hard to keep it consistent. We make it up all the time, but BT are simply not as good at it.
Regarding Sanjeev; it’s probably not a bad thing to have someone fairly media-savvy in the “undecided” camp. If they’re on the TV often enough (and questioned), then that might influence others.
Whether that’s a good thing depends on which side of the fence he chooses…
I like the idea of Yachting Together.
I watched the debate from Greenock tonight, it was still weighed to a NO vote, Sanwar was allowed to go from a question, into other areas in order to attack the SNP. Several times when Fiona tried to answer him back, the chair would not allow it, ” oh we need to get on!”.
It was a exceedingly poor debate, and to me it still seemed 3-1,against Fiona.The “comedian” was not funny at all, just showed he knew FA about the subject.
Doug Daniel I’m with you here, I think seeing normal passionate people in these debates is a big vote winner as long as they are informed enough. I was surprised just how informed some of the audience were to be honest. Here’s hoping some more average punters in future debates don’t hold back in calling the Westminster lot a bunch of lying thieves hell bent on destroying Scots self confidence for their own narrow British nationalism and perks.
I rarely watch these debates and I didn’t watch this one. They’re usually a complete and utter disappointment, mostly uninformative, tepid and facile affairs. This is the most interesting time in our country’s history but you would barely know it after watching this kind of drivel.
Ps. Still awake… damn! LOL… Just finished watching the debate and the one thing that struck me was that there was quite a number of young women who were either obvious yessers or going in that direction… and as Doug Daniel elequently stated above;”All the No folk seemed to be old baldy stuck up blokes”
…i’m buying right into the belief that the recent past reports of women being less inclined to independence was infact another total unionist-media-propaganda lie.
@The Penman
That was his brother Hardeep at the Edinburgh Rally.
Thanks for the links and I just spent the last hour watching the debate. I was actually reasonably uplifted by the programme.
The audience were vocally pro-yes, and Sarwar got savaged on several occasions. Hyslop came over well, and I think would appeal to the female vote, and the variety of people backing yes in the audience was excellent.
On balance, I believe an undecided watching that would be leaning more to yes afterwards.
Sorry, my screen was out of date and I see others have advised a different Kholi was at the Edinburgh Rally.
Also noticed I should have @x-sticks, so apologies to penman.
Off to bed for me!
@Alba4Eva
Watching this reminded me of the Better Together meeting in Musselburgh. All the old buggers ranting are yer actual Tories. Their world view is a frightening one based on class and ‘Imperial Values’. They probably toddled off home to have a pre bedtime Chota peg.
The trouble with Hyslop is that she can’t do a killer punch line, it’s all “On the one hand this and on the other hand that.”
Thanks Chic. 🙂
…and James123; I agree with you however, there was a couple of good highlights. The lass that got tore right into Sarwar was classic. I did find myself shouting at my phone (happened to be where I watched it… and musta looked quite bizarre lol), cos Fiona had opportunities to rip right in and score points, but missed them.
I fully agree with Les Wilson. How many times is the ‘undecided’ partnered with the pro-independence guest? Have you ever seen 2 pro-independence proponents pitted against a solitary unionist and an undecided? If not, then why?
The one positive thing about all those old Tories is that statistically, more of them will die before September than Yes supporters, who seem to have a younger age profile.
@Andrew Morton
The one positive thing about all those old Tories is that statistically, more of them will die before September than Yes supporters, who seem to have a younger age profile.
That is a dark comment Andrew, made me laugh though.
Haha… must be good for at least 0.5% over the next 8 months. LOL
Andrew Morton says
“The one positive thing about all those old Tories is that statistically, more of them will die before September than Yes supporters, who seem to have a younger age profile.”
Yes but what guarantees do we have of that? 😉
Baring in mind we as a country are aging faster do you think we can breed a million new yes voters before September?
Lets get to it troops 🙂
@doug Daniel
I dunno what people are expecting – the pro-indy audience members got a very fair crack at the whip tonight. You can hardly expect them to have NO unionist dunces asking stuff. Let’s be realistic about this – the BBC and co are not simply going to say “hey, let’s have a whole audience of Yes voters!”
With respect, I think you watched another program. I am not one to cry ‘foul’ at every tough debate or throw my toys out the pram because the audience wasn’t full of Yes voters.
This debate purported to be balanced. From the beginning it was biased, by giving Massie an undecided platform from which to preach unionist propaganda. Sarwar was allowed repeatedly to makes false political soundbites way beyond the original question…
Need I go on… I think that’s probably enough.
What we need is a proper debate without MPs, comedians and Tory bloggers masquerading as undecided (have you ever read any of his column?) ….
In any case, that was the last time I will watch this sort of crap. It was worse than reading the Scotsman, listening to Lola on FMQT and a dose of the skitters all at the same time.
Looks like the NatWest has thrown its hat into the ring. Got this sent to me yesterday. 🙂
NatWest
To Me
Jan 21 at 10:32 PM
What’s the most powerful word?
We’re all about being helpful. Let us tell you about things you’d like.
Being a NatWest customer has its benefits. Let us share them with you.
Great things happen when you say ‘yes’. You go on a date. You move house. You discover a food you love. And now we’d like you to say yes to us.
We’d like to send you emails about things you could be interested in. Things like helpful tools, exciting rewards and latest offers.
At the moment we can’t tell you about these things because we don’t have permission to send you marketing emails about your banking*.
Stay in the know and simply update your settings in just one click below.
Say YES
You can always say no later.
Re the BBC ‘debate’ last night.
Over on twitter A Massie is saying he told them he was a’persuadable'(NO) not an undecided, quite different.
S Kohli seemed disinterested to me. He’s not even that much of a name, odd choice.
And why is Mentorn producing it? Thought BBC Scotland had a shiny new referendum unit headed by some crack former newspaper editor.
Why do people watch this crap and then complain about it?
Don’t watch it!
Easy
“Does the panel agree that independence would massively revitalise Scottish politics, and if not why not?”
To what extent is Westminster responsible for the dire economic circumstances of Scotland and how would remaining in the union guarantee improvement?
How does the panel justify the enormous disparity in wealth and health, including life expectancy between Glasgow and London?
Do the panel agree that there is too much, big society, one nation, all together, rhetoric from southern political parties, and not enough action to fix the things that matter in people’s communities?
Eric:
(1) lets Labour whinge about “grievance culture” and attack the SNP, (2) lets them say “Labour will fix everything, solidarity with our English, Welsh and Irish comrades” and (3) is basically the same question as (1).
Eric McLean says
“listening to Lola on FMQT and a dose of the skitters all at the same time.”
Oh I dont know a dose of the skitters can be a very cathartic experience 🙂
O/t
BBC Scotland news @ 07.00 gives the labour spokesman (Drew Smith MSP) free kick at the ball with no response ref the social attitudes survey, but @ 07.30 lo and behold Nichola Sturgeons input suddenly appears, anyone keeping score?
@ME baring? d-oh meant bearing mea culpa
That headline made me think of Darling, Carmichael, Lamont and Davidson (Ruth) doing a karaoke number only it was the Alastairs having their kilts ripped off to reveal they weren’t true Scotsmen. Sorry for the image folks!
Watched the debate last night, the quality of speakers on the panel ranged from aright to piss poor. What we need is a punters panel so we can have a proper debate.
Watched the debate last night. Sarwars a liar trying to claim he didn’t miss the vote on the bedroom tax, Alex” right wing tory” was so obviously a no he was more a no than anus. I thought for a moment the lass shouting at anus was about to get out of her seat and lamp him. Also anyone notice the dirty looks he was giving anyone who dared question him? It looked like don’t question me I’m an mp
“Fourth panel member, journalist Alex Massie, described the Trident debate as a “non-issue”, adding: “That idea that anyone would base your vote upon independence in the referendum on it strikes me as being banal, trivial and tedious.””
I dont see the Trident situation as trivial. I dont think its banal to oppose their existence a stones throw away from Glasgow. I dont think its tedious to voice my concern that it naturally makes us a target or that the substantial amount of monies spent on them is unworthy of debate. I also think it is an important issue in regard to independence from Westminster. Maybe that’s just me tho…
So even after yesterdays boot on the stovies, the BBC is still at it. Not sure which debate they watched but i’m sure i saw a different one!
link to bbc.co.uk
Stu
“To what extent is Westminster responsible for the dire economic circumstances of Scotland and how would remaining in the union guarantee improvement?”
There is another way of reading this… If the UK takes no responsibility for Scotland’s current status, then the reverse of that coin is, why would staying with the Union be beneficial?
No matter what question’s asked we will always get labour whinging. But given the recent debate and the polls discussed on the next thread, we should be concentrating on the ‘What have you done for me lately?” argument and contrast with what we could do for ourselves.
I tried to post a comment her last night, several times as each one just disappeared, so trying this just to see if it works. My comment was about how westminster really should be starting to think about negotiating with Scotland in the likelihood of a YES for Independence, but they bury their heads in the sand while burying the facts and twisting the truth to suit themselves, it is utterly disgraceful.
Can we take the blinkers off a bit? The debate was pretty fair, the panel probably was too (although I think they may have mixed up Sanjeev with Hardeep and booked the wrong one). After Eddi Reader’s tired and emotional performance on Question Time, this really proved that having celebrities debating simply because they are celebrities is a pointless exercise.
@grendel
Genuinely surprised that you though the debate was fair. I am a psychologist. Objectivity is familiar to me. This debate was a farce.
“This debate purported to be balanced. From the beginning it was biased, by giving Massie an undecided platform from which to preach unionist propaganda. Sarwar was allowed repeatedly to makes false political soundbites way beyond the original question… ”
Hyslop had plenty of opportunity to nail Sarwar on any one of his flights of fancy, and failed to do so. In fact it was left to the audience to do what she couldn’t. and to be fair, they did.