Club membership increases
Posted on
October 11, 2014 by
Chris Cairns
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
I held and looked at the folded paper in my two hands as I walked to the ballot box, it was totally white. I know what I saw. My bother even went out of his way to look at both sides of his paper in another city (Dundee) because it was such an important thing to him, and his was blank on the back. He is raging, and is looking into finding out if is vote was counted.
Some papers were clearly blank at the back. That is a fact. You can kid yourself as much as you want, for whatever reason I am not sure, if it make you happy, go for it.
Natasha
On the day of the vote, a young woman came into our YES drop in centre and asked to speak to somebody about the NHS amongst other things, she said that she was going to vote No but one of her pals had phoned her in tears saying Ive just voted no and now I am regretting it, the young lady left our drop in centre with a smile on her face and a determination to vote YES.
A Couple of days later, I was commiserating with a nephew and he said that one of his female cousins had voted No and had made a tearful phone call to her husband to tell him to Vote YES.
@Kenny
What was noticeable about the No campaign was there was no proper rallies/marches (the Orange Order does not count for obvious reasons), there was no public meetings, no concerts etc. It was basically a campaign run from the television studios. It was devoid of inspiration, or positivity, or a vision for the future, soulless etc. Unionist politicians and their supporters celebrated at the count, and that was it. Why would anyone want to be a part of this?
@Morag
“The big mistake Ruth made was telling. It didn’t make any difference to the result.”
This I fear is wrong although I don’t think there was any cheating at any counts. The postal vote sampling had someone spooked, it wasn’t going as well as they hoped and this was the signal to start the last phase of their campaign, the shock and awe phase. If the postal vote was so bad, do you really think they would have allowed Mr Brown to come out and promise the Vow?
Sampling allowed the tailoring of the campaigns final phase, something that favoured BT with their uninterrupted access to the media and disadvantaged Yes as they did not have that access.
first why they make it so hard to comment it’s like runnin a fuckin marathon then ave gotta keep loggin in am getting fed up o a this English pish last word a perfect example cause I tried to put up Pish but they put up Push
@Robert Peffers Noo ah could have expanded on the Lochgelly Twase as you have done at 9.06 post but I stopped short, there only certain establishments that would use the Twase nowadays & thats in Dugeons & I believe there are ladys dragons to weild them ( not that I have any knowledge of such places ) but I did at some time Read the News of the World to my utter shame, olso I did,nt want Paula Rose over excited.
Thanks Lenny. 🙂
Craig Murray @Hope over Fear rally
link to tinyurl.com
Muttley, nobody who was involved with the process, and understood how the voting system worked, has the slightest doubt that No won by something under 400,000 votes or so. The limits of possible tampering are orders of magnitude below that.
What is being alleged in some quarters isn’t low-level fiddling by individuals, which must have happened because it always does, but a large-scale organised conspiracy involving hundreds and indeed thousands of people. All of whom were recruited and agreed to be involved, without anyone recoiling in horror and going to the police. In a system where probably half the people administering it were Yes voters! And none of the Yes-voting staff noticed what their suborned colleagues were doing. And none of the polling or counting agents noticed either.
It’s ludicrous. Salmond knows that, as does every single person involved who has served as a polling or counting agent on a regular basis in past elections.
Morag et al – my mum and I both commented, though only to each other, that the ballot paper seemed very small and flimsy and had nothing on the back.
Having kept hold of my polling card, for posterity, I checked it the other day, and on the back of that there are 5 instructions on how to vote.
Number 5 states: ‘Show the staff the number on the back of your ballot paper before you put it in the ballot box.
Not aware of having had to do this with previous ballot papers, I didn’t and wasn’t asked to, and my fault for not checking instructions on the back, but it seems a number on back of ballots was expected and part of the system on the day. Odd, no?
Alex Salmond on form here:
link to twitter.com
Hmmm, I would like to get Davo in court:
So, you KNEW illegal sampling was happening?
Didn’t you feel it was your duty, in strict accordance with the law, to immediately report this ILLEGAL behaviour to the appropriate authority?
Does this not make you party to CRIMINAL behaviour?
If a member of the public knows of ILLEGAL behaviour going on in the most important matter of public voting, on which our democracy rests, what advice would YOU give to that person???
O/T one thing I never ceased to be amazed at is the utter paupacity of the Scottish Tory and Labour leaders and, in contrast, the talent of the SNP (and Greens) — and that’s the professional politicans, before we even get onto the grassroots campaigners of Women for Indy, Common Weal et al and all the great individual personalities like Lindsay Jarett, Darth-Vader music guy…
Hmmm, I would like to get Davo in court:
So, you KNEW illegal sampling was happening?
Didn’t you feel it was your duty, in strict accordance with the law, to immediately report this ILLEGAL behaviour to the appropriate authority?
Does this not make you party to CRIMINAL behaviour?
If a member of the public knows of ILLEGAL behaviour going on in the most important matter of public voting, on which our democracy rests, what advice would YOU give to that person???
Messages starting to disappear into the ether….
Now appearing, apologies for taking up space with double posting, peeps!
T-Jenny, the instructions to voters are honoured more in the breach than the observance. I sort of looked at the polling clerk when I put the paper in the box, just to confirm I was doing it right, but I have no idea whether she clocked the back of the thing or not.
It’s kind of normal. I think the instructions are so the clerk can check it’s the ballot paper you’re putting in there and not your shopping list. But it’s never strictly enforced.
I still want to hear about someone who noticed and challenged a paper that was blank on the back before they put it in the box. So far, only people who thought nothing about it at all at the time, but who didn’t remember seeing anything on the back once the conspiracy theory started to go round.
Like me.
I can be sure my BP was blank as I folded it and clearly remember thinking Mmmm this is supposed to be private . When folded my paper it was so thin I could see clearly my vote and X as I popped it in the box in front of the attendant .
@ Nana Smith , you mentioned your other half was in Dingwall ?
The press reported 3 or 4 counting staff were pulled as they were cheering YES and booing No papers ?
My sister was there and is unaware of anything like this going on .
I’m curious & any more reported in press that I may have missed or was it a complete fabrication ?
Thanks
The only thing that matters to Labour is the winning of elections. After that they do not care until the next election. As for town hall election administrations, they have that well sewn up with employees, ex employees and patronised members and families.
The Yes campaign may have won the intellectual arguments but Labour didn’t need to with their built in support, who wrongly believe that Labour is the party of working class. Fear mongering and the whole of the British Nationalist media does their dirty for them.
As for defining colonialism, Lenin said that finance capital was the highest form of Imperialism. He also defined the difference between the nationalism of the oppressed and the nationalism of the oppressor. Unlike Anglo Capitalist British Nationalism, Scottish Irish and Welsh Nationalists do not say they are superior to anyone else,nor wish to rule anyone else.
Dont know why some people are getting this disappearing post thing. It’s not happening to me.
Kenny, it might be satisfying to imagine Ruth being challenged like that, but you know and I know it just ain’t gonna happen.
As I was saying, the utter intellectual paupacity of Davo and Lamont is really quite incredible, and I am not just saying this because I do not like their parties. It is simply horrifying that anyone could think they are capable of being left in charge of anything more than a tame canary, let alone a country! Of course, with our current system, maybe that is the whole idea…. for such intellectual midgets to supposedly be at the helm of power… In a former time, I recoiled with horror at the thought of an independent Scotland being governed by the likes of these overpromoted “toon councilors”. Thankfully, I can look at all those involved in the YES campaign, either inside or outside the SNP, and feel confident in the talent we have to really be a great wee nation!
“Wasn’t it really rather decent of the Eton Old Boys at Westminster to allow the Referendum to be conducted completely above board and to be managed by their unionist friends from the Labour Party who have a perfect record in election conduct.
And as for those silly stories about a smear and fear campaign conducted largely by the BBC; it’s just too absurd.
Purdah, you say? Poppycock old boy!
Yes, it’s true; the Empire has a long and proud tradition of safeguarding democracy, and long may it continue.
Anyway, what were a few million Jocks going to do with all that oil. Eh, what! I mean, needs must, what ho?
The Empire lives on. God save the Queen!”
The Referendum was stolen by means of State propaganda – with the help of one or two other little things.
UK plc was just too big to be allowed to fail.
I used my mobile to take photos of my ballot paper–both sides in the polling booth (for posterity). In fact, I advised people here on Wings, before the vote, to do likewise.
I can tell you that my paper has a cross in the YES box on one side. On the reverse side there is a very clear bar code and serial number.
I was “sure” my paper was blank on the back too. I can’t deny it, there are posts from me saying so.
I clearly “remember” folding it in half and looking at the top half of the back and in my memory it was blank.
Having checked with others who voted with me, I’m perfectly content to admit my memory was playing me tricks. Memories do that. It’s a well-recognised phenomenon. Guy in a gorilla suit on a basketball court, anyone?
Still waiting for the person who came forward and said “this paper is blank on the back” before he put it in the ballot box.
@ Morag
If the marking on the back of the ballot paper does not mean anything why was the world famous Naomi Wolf at the Hope over Fear rally with nearly 500 statements from Scottish Voters saying there was no markings on the backs of their ballot papers. She is not someone who would cross half the world if it did not mean anything.
link to youtube.com
You need to watch this if you are in anyway interested in the voting procedure.
Oneironaut
I posted the url of it on youtube earlier but it disappeared, just as well for you!
I also said that maybe it should be played by the Darth Vader guy outside wherever it is the Smith Commision meets next week (22nd??), as Mickey Moore walks in.
The back of the ballot paper I had in the western part of Dumfries and Galloway was completely blank (I checked both sides). Had I known beforehand that there ought to have been some identification mark or other, I would certainly have brought this to the attention of the person in charge of the polling station to see if all the other ballot papers were similarly unmarked and why this should be so.
Proud Cybernat, there you go. Isn’t it funny that everyone (like you) who actually recorded their ballot paper was given a “proper” one, but somehow all these people (like me) who didn’t bother to pay any attention to the back at the time and who only discovered later there was supposed to be something on the back, were the ones given the blank ones?
Something for the night owls to get their teeth into.
link to news.sky.com
Still waiting for someone who challenged an allegedly “blank” back while the paper was still in their hands. Or who photographed the back and the photo shows it blank.
That’s the only evidence that means anything, in this context. “I didn’t know there was meant to be anything on the back, but now I do, I don’t remember seeing anything on mine” doesn’t count.
I’m in that category myself.
Come on, just one photograph, or one person who went to the polling clerk and said, why is this blank?
HoF with music 🙂
link to tinyurl.com
I thought this was so nice – found on the wall at the place of the Hong Kong demos –
Also still waiting for a coherent explanation of the purpose of these alleged blank-backed ballots. So far, nothing has been suggested that couldn’t be accomplished just as well with the voters being given normal ballots.
Also waiting for a coherent explanation of how the conspirators made certain that everyone who was going to photograph their paper got a real one. Or how come nobody noticed this glaring anomaly and challenged it while they were still in the polling station.
And best of all, I want to know how the polling clerks themselves were kept quiet. All these ordinary citizens, all over the country, Yes and No voters themselves and probably about evenly split, sitting all day in polling stations giving out these fake papers, and none of them noticed?
Such a huge risk of it being spotted, and yet somehow it wasn’t. Not on the day, and not by anyone with a camera. An enormous risk. And no apparent purpose for taking such a risk. If you’re just going to substitute the papers anyway, why do they need to be blank on the back?
Come on, get real.
link to your.heathrow.com
Here in England, giant billboards with a big but odd looking Union jack are everywhere now. It’s not prominent here on the web site above but if runway three gets the go ahead will Scottrish seat warming MP”s on enormous Westminster expenses have a vote? South East teamGB super heating economy demands even more, shock.
@nigel says: 13 October, 2014 at 6:41 pm:
“I often wonder how Scots react when living in London, especially when, either in social occasions or in the workplace when adverse comments regarding Scots are made?”
Well, Nigel, as one who spent my entire working life as a civilian MOD employee and had to make regular trips to the deep south I can tell you this particular Scot had no problems dealing with English, “Banter”. It is quite apparent that when faced with, “Scottish”, banter they just cannot take it as a joke. They mostly get a bit upset and often didn’t realise the proverbial had been taken until later, after they had time to think about it. Next time you visited they were as nice as ninepense. Nothing cures English, “Banter”, than their own friends laughing at them.
What a load of old ballots, man I’m sick of this, I’m off.
Naomi Wolf was waving a bunch of ballot papers at yesterdays rally, said the went to the Police were sent to the Electorial Commission. Ballot papers being found at bins ect ect, if there is clear evidence the Police Electorial Commission cannot ignore it,its put up or shut up.
Craig Murray transcript
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Kenny says:
13 October, 2014 at 11:45 pm
Hmmm, I would like to get Davo in court:
So, you KNEW illegal sampling was happening?
Didn’t you feel it was your duty, in strict accordance with the law, to immediately report this ILLEGAL behaviour to the appropriate authority?
Does this not make you party to CRIMINAL behaviour?
If a member of the public knows of ILLEGAL behaviour going on in the most important matter of public voting, on which our democracy rests, what advice would YOU give to that person???
WE did at the time and the official in charge of the Postal Vote Opening had a “wee word” with the person who was doing vote counting (and marking the votes down on an A4 paper pad using five bar gates) after the “wee word” they were allowed back into the room. BUT the official did not call the police to investigate. We complained but got a “we took appropriate action” response AKA nothing to see here move along,
I have subsequently reported this to Police Scotland, been interviewed and made a statement. I will be really surprised to see anyone in court over this illegality.
The chance to catch someone acting illegally was missed by the inaction of the PVO official.
It would appear that vote counting is not illegal only passing on the info you have gathered is….and it seems that no one is really interested in making it difficult to count votes at a PVO session, as my simple advice on how to make it impossible to do that (after catching someone doing it) was ignored.
In my mind and world there was a suspicion that this vote counting was not simply for that persons private use, that suspicion was surely enough to call in the police at the time to start an investigation…..seems not according to the official response we got from the referendum officials in the council.
The back of my Ballot was blank. I could clearly see this when it was folded for me by the person who removed it from the pad and then held up for me to take it from their hand.
I thought that folding it for me was odd – it never struck me that there was supposed to be anything on the back until I saw people started mentioning it on twitter – at first I thought this was just another silly irrelevant Indyref load of rubbish.
Yeah, me too.
Come on, somebody must have said something at the time. Somebody who photographed a paper must have had one of these not-so-elusive mutie papers.
No?
Morag – Why would we have asked about our ballot being blank on the back?
A case of you don’t know, what you don’t know. We didn’t know that there were ballots with numbers on the back, as you don’t get to see any other ballot paper than your own.
And would somebody please explain to me the purpose of this extraordinarily complicated scam to give a lot of people (but never people who might have realised at the time, or who were going to photograph it for posterity) blank-backed papers?
I mean, in the name of God, WHY??
If it happened, it was a bloody miracle nobody anywhere in the country spotted it on the day. Especially that none of the polling clerks noticed that some of the papers they were giving out were blank. One could scarcely imagine they’d get away with it.
So it must have been really, really essential to the grand plan. Why?
TJenny, the point is that many people didn’t realise there was meant to be anything on the back, and so didn’t “take in” what was there. Only later, on hearing the stories start to circulate, did they “remember” not seeing anything.
It’s the way memory works. I feel slightly silly that I did it myself.
The man in the van that received an anonymous phone call about the ballot papers was a strange one. None of these Yes “Ballots” were folded.
Perhaps he was innocent in all this and not aware of this being setup in advance? If that was the case then I don’t understand why he did not take them to the Police and report his story to them. Why was he was only interested in telling the Electoral Commission when he posted the viral YouTube video but NOT the police?
muttley79 says: @ 13 October, 2014 at 10:38 pm
Personally, I just can’t identify with nationalism, whether Scottish or British so I feel neutral towards it but I can see the point of view of people who do not like it.
I’m more interested in the civic, political and economic side of the argument which I feel it will help improve my life and the community around me. Those things may also appeal to others with a more nationalist sentiment but the independence movement is as mentioned a broad church.
A problem is that the MSM has successfully portrayed the independence movement as a nationalist separatist movement and the associated negative connotations yet portray British nationalism as some enlightened benevolent entity through termed it unionism, and the language of family where in reality it is nationalism and a relationship of unequals.
It’s going to take a lot to overcome that MSM bias but my preference is making it easier to get a diversity of opinion about the independence movement so that people can get alternative viewpoints then rather than having to stumble on them by accident or through word of mouth.
Morag – you are not allowed to take pictures in the polling station. There were very clear notices about this.
I understand this “John son of David” is a fairly well-known oddball. Someone else remarked that the name sounds like a Freeman-on-the-land type, and there seems to be a suggestion that he is actually one of them.
If ballot papers were really removed from the system before the count, I’m pretty sure the perpetrators could manage to dispose of them effectively, like sticking them in a furnace or something. Leaving them in a poly bag beside a bin? Really??
On the other hand, producing fake ballot papers that looked right on a grainy video or even at a distance would be a piece of cake to anyone with a postal vote and a photocopier.
Voting Fraud ? Can we all not Just link to youtube.com Aye Till I Die
Adrian, the thing about photographs was clarified. There was no prohibition on a private picture in the booth, so long as no other voters were in the shot. Though I agree a lot of people didn’t know that.
I once took a picture in a polling station myself, when a polling clerk had displayed some propaganda where voters could see it as they walked to the booths. I needed the evidence. I waited carefully until there were no voters in the polling station at all before I took the picture, and it was submitted to the authorities.
So basically what is needed is a photo of a blank ballot paper — and who takes a photo of a blank verso?!?
I did like what one woman said, however. “I am a graphic artist. I know what a blank sheet of paper looks like!”
Was this presence of a number or bar code a state secret? No, it was not. Then why was this not announced beforehand? “All voters should check for the presence of the following on their ballot papers….”
Personally, the one thing I was suspicious about was the lack of an exit poll. This is a very important measure to ensure against fraud and I was very uneasy when I heard about this.
Anyway, back to the question of the alleged blank ballot papers. What about the various videos taken of the count? Surely they can show some evidence — or are they too blurry?
Personally, I think the reason may have been because there was simply not the time, due to the high turnout, to give all the papers a special number… Who knows. But it is interesting that Naomi Wolf is getting involved, because she does not really seem to have an axe to grind in this particular matter…
Anyway, I think people should be free to post whatever they think about this matter on this forum. They must not be shouted down or bullied. Remember, people, inside yourselves, the most important thing is always to be free and INDEPENDENT! I would hope WoS reflects the broad YES umbrella and excludes no one, no opinion, no matter, large or small. In our diversity is our strength and we welcome one and all.
Referendum called off in Catalonia.
@ Doug McG says:
Something for the night owls to get their teeth into.
link to news.sky.com
AS kicked Bolton’s fat arse good and proper, what a lying toad the man is. IMO Sky News were even worse than the BBC during the referendum and that’s saying something.
@nigel at 6:41 pm
“I often wonder how Scots react when living in London, especially when, either in social occasions or in the workplace when adverse comments regarding Scots are made?”
Do they just “sing dumb” as I suspect most do? Or do they laugh along with them, effectively endorsing their remarks?”
Odd you offer only two choices, both derogatory.
Generally, they come right back with a rapier sharp Scots wit that leaves their detractors shamefaced.
Heard recently (one of the milder examples):
“If you hate us so much why are you down here?”
“Missionary work is part of my religion”
Morag,
Can you please answer Scot Finlayson’s point which I repeat below:
“@ Morag
If the marking on the back of the ballot paper does not mean anything why was the world famous Naomi Wolf at the Hope over Fear rally with nearly 500 statements from Scottish Voters saying there was no markings on the backs of their ballot papers. She is not someone who would cross half the world if it did not mean anything.
link to youtube.com
You need to watch this if you are in anyway interested in the voting procedure.”
@ Kenny
As mentioned above, the polling card mentions showing the number on the back of the folded ballot to the clerk before posting it in the box. Everyone, apart from a few who registered very late perhaps, received a polling card. If people don’t read their cards, that’s their choice. No need for a special instruction, particularly since the numbers are not actually necessary for the vote to be valid.
The idea that the turnout led to there not being time to give the papers a number is also wrong; the papers were printed well in advance. A high turnout was expected, so the number of papers printed was 120% of the electorate – to cater for spoilt papers for which voters might request a replacement at the time and also perhaps for an enlarged electorate, the exact size of which was not known until the deadline for registration.
Kenny, presenting counter-arguments does not equal shouting people down or bullying them.
The videos I’ve seen of the count do show the printing on the back of the papers, where it’s possible to make it out.
This is becoming quite a revealing exercise in human cognition, and possibly suggestibility. I’ve had many occasions in my life where I’ve been absolutely certain that something I saw looked a certain way, and then been completely wrong-footed when presented with the actual thing, only to realise my memory simply didn’t match the reality.
What our memory stores is what we notice. It’s not an exact photograph of what was in front of us. Not only that, the act of taking a memory out and “looking” at it and putting it back actually changes the memory. You can’t win. If you don’t think about it at all the memory fades. If you repeatedly call it to mind, it morphs. You’re remembering the memory of a memory and so on.
Come on, just one person who went to the polling clerk and said, hey I thought there was supposed to be a number on this? I mean, as TJenny points out, it says on the polling card that there’s supposed to be a number there. I’d have thought some people read that and paid attention to it. Even if I didn’t. How did this conspiracy manage to arrange it so that nobody who had diligently read their polling card and went to the polling station ready to do exactly as instructed, was one of the people given a blank ballot?
How did the polling clerks manage not to notice that they were giving out blank-backed papers?
And what were the blank-backed papers for, in this remarkably complicated and impenetrable conspiracy?
I’m particularly intrigued that I did it myself. I have what seems to be a very clear memory of the upper half of my folded ballot paper, and it’s blank.
I was wrong. I wasn’t paying attention.
I also don’t remember noticing the backs of the ballot papers at the count. For this reason it didn’t occur to me that they differed from my memory of my own paper. I just assumed that was the way they were, in our region.
I’ve been assured by other people who were with me that the numbers were there. And given that the polling cards said the numbers were supposed to be there, I’m not arguing! I know how fallible human memory is, and I accept that. One of the biggest days in my life, and I was so focussed on the big picture I wasn’t paying attention to the detail.
The way this is spreading and growing legs is interesting though, if quite alarming.
crazycat,
“A high turnout was expected, so the number of papers printed was 120% of the electorate”
120% was printed. 83% voted. Say 90% were used. What happened to the 30% which were unused? Who controlled them?
30% of 4 million is 1,200,000 ballot papers.
A banana republic can hold an election with properly printed ballot papers. And we can’t even be sure if the ballot papers used were proper and legitimate or not.
The procedure for dealing with and accounting for unused papers is detailed in the regulations. It’s all there.
@ Square Haggis
I watched Craig’s speech on the Livestream. Quite a bombastic one, one to get the crowd roused.
Some points for continued discussion – What to do with the Monarchy? Are they part & parcel, even the heart, of the United Kingdom in the minds of the Unionists who voted No Thanks?
Do they view Sterling the same way?
Followed a link:
link to youtube.com
Short film shot by HoF Rally crowd wanderer. Reasonable production values. MSM has attendance 6000-7000, hmmm, who to believe???
So the old “blank rear of ballot paper” conspiracy theory has re-surfaced then?
Come on guys, doesn’t matter what we say or do they are not going acknowledge it, they will simply ignore. They will not allow anything to change the outcome.
We need to be channeling our energies and our hope towards May 7 2015 .
crazycat,
“As mentioned above, the polling card mentions showing the number on the back of the folded ballot to the clerk before posting it in the box.”
I have never been asked to do this.
The folded ballot paper is put in the box in front of the clerks and that is it. They never look at it, just it being put into the box.
Weather forecast:
There remains a smog of suspicion throughout Scotland
which may last for sometime.
The smog is believed to have formed around 17 07
though densities have rarely been as high as at present.
A spokesperson for the BBC described the smog as an
illusion or as a figment of the imagination.
STV said that although there is no smoke without fire,
in this case it was simply burnt toast in their canteen.
Meanwhile on Glasgow Underground a sign appeared which said
‘You can’t fool 1.6 million people all the time.’
Ruth Davidson would only say ‘ Have you seen any voting papers? I
must have left them somewhere.’
People with respiratory diseases, together with young children and
old people who voted No, are being advised to stay indoors.
Food banks will remain open however amid plans to begin a home
delivery service. In response, David Cameron expressed some doubt
that this was an appropriate use of Scotland’s dwindling oil
reserves.
For more updates, go outside and put your ear to the ground.
Morag,
Can you please answer Scot Finlayson’s point which I repeat below:
“@ Morag
If the marking on the back of the ballot paper does not mean anything why was the world famous Naomi Wolf at the Hope over Fear rally with nearly 500 statements from Scottish Voters saying there was no markings on the backs of their ballot papers.
She is not someone who would cross half the world if it did not mean anything.
link to youtube.com
You need to watch this if you are in anyway interested in the voting procedure.”
Sometimes they do. It’s a wee detail added in an attempt to make sure it’s the actual ballot paper you put in the box, and not some random shopping list, or one you made earlier and thought it would do just as well.
The point is that this is printed on the polling cards. Everyone has the information right there in their hands that there’s supposed to be a number on the back of the ballot paper.
OK, it’s obvious that a lot of people didn’t bother to read it. Guilty as charged, m’lud. But here we all are, postulating a conspiracy that involves hundreds of thousands of people (at least) who have that information right in front of them, being given papers with no such number, and absolutely NOBODY noticed this at the time.
Not one single person who had dutifully read the entire polling card and went to the polling station with the intention of following all the instructions, was given a blank-backed paper? How on earth did the conspirators manage that one?
Morag,
“The procedure for dealing with and accounting for unused papers is detailed in the regulations. It’s all there.”
And you can personally guarantee that it was followed as per the book?
Could we see the results of an independent audit of the unused ballot papers?
I imagine you probably could. It was part of the procedure that the diligent polling agents who stayed to the end were allowed to witness.
Why are you asking me to give you a personal guarantee? I’m telling you the point you raise is covered in the regulations for the referendum, and I know that some of the polling agents who stayed to the end watched the procedure being followed.
You could have volunteered to be a polling agent and seen it for yourself.
@ Rock
I wasn’t asked to do it either (if you mean by the clerks); the point is that the existence of a number was known to anyone who bothered to read the back of their polling card. Therefore anyone who had read their card would have been suspicious if they had then looked at their ballot paper and found it blank.
Of course not everyone read the card. But if some papers were blank, there exists a risk that a person who had read a polling card would be issued with a blank-backed paper and notice. There is no evidence that this happened. Anyone trying to commit fraud would be daft to take the risk, though (and as has repeatedly been pointed out, this isn’t an efficient method for fraud anyway).
@ Morag
It looks as if we’re on answering duty tonight – but not making any headway (again). I think I’m going to bed shortly. Good night!
This is a bit like whack-a-mole. When one proposed irregularity is scrutinised and found not really to be as plausible as everyone thought, suddenly a completely separate point gets jumped on with “but could THAT have happened then?!”
Could there have been little elves in the ballot boxes, rubbing out the Yes votes and changing them to No? Can you give me your personal guarantee that didn’t happen?
The people running this election were the local councils. All of them have SNP councillors and some of them are actually run by the SNP. The people recruited to do the donkey work on the day were council employees and others such as bank clerks. Not faceless minions of the evil empire, but your friends and neighbours. My neighbour used to do it every time.
Half of them would be Yes voters. The vast majority might be assumed to be honest, and the few who might not be wouldn’t have much of a chance to do anything considering the number of people around (those Yes voters again), and the polling and counting agents.
Just who are these evil people who carried out these mysterious and unspecified (and in some cases wholly irrational) plots supposed to be?
We could have won the game if we scored more goals. we did not we lost. game over. Onwards lets make sure we win the next one. Aye till I die.
@ Square Haggis
Re: Craig Murray transcript. Caught that on Livestream, overt crowd pleaser, bombastic and emotive.
Raises points for continuing discussion – The Monarchy (drop), Sterling (likewise). The first, no problem, the second a minefield.
Followed link:
link to youtube.com
Shot by HoF Rally crowd wanderer, reasonable production. MSM report 6000-7000 attendance. I smell porkies.
I see the “blank ballot reverse” conspiracy theory has resurfaced.
Not good guys. It will get us nowhwere. They will not acknowledge and carry on their agenda regardless. Scotland is back in its box as far as they are concerned.
Whats done is done, we write the future and should channel our efforts towards 7th May 2015, it is not far away.
Naomi Wolf has set up a special forum for the rigged ref. Apparently, there’s a free carrier bag full of blank-backed ballot papers, postmarked London, and a signed copy of her 9th book “how to get advance checks from publishers” for the first 10 to register at:
http://riggedref.madasaboxoffrogs.wacko
@ Robert Peffers, 9:08pm, 13/10/14
@ Betty Boop says:13 October, 2014 at 2:08 pm:
“Anyway, not sure what a Lochgelly looks like, but, I was sure it was you who mentioned a five fingered tawse a wee while back.”
Ah! Ms Boop, here is a little known fact I’m sure will come as a surprise to older Scots and to you youngsters too.
The original Lochgelly Tawse company is still in business and you can buy your very own, “Lochgelly Tawse”, either as a collector’s item or for use by those with strange evening pastimes.
LOL, Robert. I’ve had quite a few conversations about the tawse now, but, you have made me chuckle at being regarded as a youngster at my advanced age! 🙂
I went to school at a time when every teacher had access to these implements, used more in threat; I just never paid attention to the type!
As for the more exotic (I am choosing the word carefully) uses, I only mentioned it in the first place because I thought some behavioural correction was required. I prefer a glass of wine of an evening! I am pleased to see that peace seems to have broken out yet again this evening – I hope the truce lasts longer this time 🙂
After all, if folk felt the need to abandon ship, they would lose all this wonderful, eclectic mix of information, serious and sometimes just a bit frivolous, which helps keep us interested and motivated.
Thanks, Crazycat. I’m turning in too. It’s a failing of mine, that I like to drill down into these conspiracy theories and see if there’s anything there. (The one occasion there actually was something there, is in the hands of the police and the SCCRC now.)
I feel more than a little sheepish about how little attention I myself was paying to the detail of what was going on. I’ve voted for a long time, and it’s a bit of a routine. I met another SNP activist and his wife in the polling station, and spoke to them because his wife had just got out of hospital and I was glad to see her up and about (and casting that all-important Yes vote).
I was excited, and stressed, and a bit overwhelmed by the day, and what was about to follow. The actual voting bit was so humdrum and mundane it seemed like an anti-climax. It was less interesting than the last council by-election. That’s why I lingered in the polling booth and unfolded my paper for another look at the cross.
Everything was as it always is. The polling clerks, the neighbours, the chat, the ballot papers that the clerks do this wee routine with that you stop noticing by the time you’re about 21.
If I’d had the slightest notion that this bizarre conspiracy theory was going to arise, of course I’d have paid more attention. But in a way it’s instructive that I didn’t.
Because I was fooled in exactly the same way so many other people were fooled, and managed to acquire a memory of a blank-backed paper. I only realised I was wrong by asking other people who had been there, and examining videos of counts, and (belatedly) checking what the procedure should have been.
It’s hardly the first time that a memory I thought was reliable of something I saw has been proved to be significantly wrong when the actual object was produced or recovered.
It’s well known how memory works and how it can be mistaken in just this way. By not recording details you weren’t looking out for and didn’t consider important at the time. Even if it’s a guy in a dirty great gorilla suit walking across a basketball court.
Wins thread!
This blank ballot paper nonsense is turning into mass-hysteria probably inspired by wishful thinking.
We already have the smoking gun, it’s the lies told at pensioners doorsteps by naesayers, it’s the broken vow, it’s the oilfield lifespan, it’s everything Jim Murphy has ever said, it’s fracking licences, supermarkets, mass-media, banks.
If you want something to be aggrieved about we already have it in abundance. Go mental about that and stop looking for something that isn’t there.
Start thinking about no demographics and how to work on them, the earlier we get conversions the better.
I’m in my bed now, honestly.
What Craig the Pict said. Every last word of it.
Morag
I’d have gone to the Hope Over Fear rally on Sunday, but when I saw her on the list of speakers, that was it for me, no chance was I going to associate with that.
Maybe that’s why others didn’t go either?
I can’t believe this bunch of hooey was somehow raised again.
Guys, get a grip and move on to something more positive.
I’m off too. 🙁
It’s high time to clinch this thread, IMHO.
I was a polling clerk in Glasgow. All the papers had a bar code and serial number on the back. There were two of us at the table and we cross checked every address and serial number on the back onto a separate A4 yellow paper. We checked the ballot boxes coming in and going out and sealed them. I cannot answer for them after that, or in other polling stations.
If say, a bunch of Cooncil employees, or Labourites were running the station they could do as they wished. I know this has happened in the past, but I just did not see it happen in my station. Ballot boxes were reported missing in the Glenrothes by election, along with the register and nothing was done about it.
This morning on BBC Breakfast shortly after 6am, a piece on today’s debate, morphing swiftly into the West Lothian question.
E-mail sent direct to BBC Breakfast:
Re: Scots MPs voting on English only matters
I wonder how long it will take before you finally get around to mentioning that the SNP MPs in Westminster already DO NOT participate in votes on English-only issues, as a matter of principle.
However, Scottish MPs from Labour, Conservative and the Lib-Dems DO vote on English-only issues.
I’m aware that lazy journalism has become “Business as Usual” for the BBC, but I pay a licence fee for you to educate and inform.
Kindly do so.
I don’t for one minute believe that Shuggy was naïve enough to expect other than the standard EBC reply. At least he could expect a pen friend for life.
Tommy Sheridan opens the “Hope Over Fear” rally in George SQ with a short speech and a reminder of the enemy within is those “Red Tories”, (Scottish labour).
link to youtube.com
The theme of the day was, Red Tories out, SNP in for the 2015 GE. Every speaker on Sunday, from all walks of life, was convinced that there should be no division on this one.
And have you noticed how the MSM (Daily Record), and BBC Scotland/STV will never describe Scottish Labour as the RED TORIES.
Scottish Labour DO NOT like the label, “RED TORIES”, which makes it all the more important that we get this onto as many leaflets and posters as possible.
Couple of more vids and pics to come from Sunday.
Morag: but a large-scale organised conspiracy involving hundreds and indeed thousands of people.
If every topic on WoS is to be monopolised by your insistent and repetitious condemnation of anybody who thinks a ballot paper flaky, it might help if you quoted exact evidence of who it is suggests a ‘large-scale conspiracy’ has taken place.
Is it one or two people with a grievance, or a concerted effort by a political party?
If you know who they are precisely might it not be better to aim your argument at them rather than turn WoS into your personal blog? (That’s a rhetorical question.) In fact, it might aid your campaign better if you set up your own blog and laid out your diatribe in full against those who feel the Referendum was manipulated. There you can take all the space you like, and take on all-comers.
So far, you’ve managed to hold discussion here down to your personal regressive hobby-horse, a negative, for days on end.
Mundell on the radio wittering about English only votes for English laws.
When is someone going to point out the obvious? Certainly not the BBC!
The cannot have English only votes for English laws if Scotland does not have full fiscal autonomy! It will be taxation without representation because some of the money they will be spending with be ours, Scottish money!
At the heart of this, of course, is the total unwillingness to tell the truth – Scotland subsidises rUK, not the other way round!
Truth, of course, is a rare commodity.
More important than real or imaginary voting irregularities was Alistair Darling saying three times in every interview,repeated endlessly by a compliant media:”You will lose your British Pension”
The vow,the lies and the downright terrorising of the elderly must be the focus.Everything else is a diversion!
Husker:
Unless someone comes up with an alternative, no matter how you look at it, I … can see the only option for a better form of government … is an iScotland.
In a sea of self-indulgent posts it’s by sheer chance I came across your articulate remarks. (I’ve highlighted this to catch you attention!)
I agree with most of the sentiments you express, though I’ve never had a problem with Scottish nationalism because it’s small country nationalism not big country imperialism.
South American countries see no reason to apologise for their resurgence of confidence and outright rejection of outside influences that have dogged their economies for years, and kept the masses poor. Now, in charge of their own recourses at last, they put that wealth to eradicating poverty and educating their people. We have a lot to learn from them.
Scottish nationalism isn’t a new thing.
A natural wish to return to the days when we made our own decisions lay simmering for generations, denied an outlet to express itself in cultural and civic pride, in endeavour and achievement. Currently, locked in a Westminster dominated UK, we achieve things for other nations, and we die for other people’s wars.
Our writers and intellectuals have kept the flame of homogeny alive in language and in social values. We owe them a lot. Too many have died before they saw commitment to their fellow man flower and blossom.
I have always seen Scotland’s malaise as one of control of its wealth, and in consequence, opportunities for its people to develop to the full. It took me many years to put the jigsaw pieces together, much of my attitude born out of experience, some of it salutory.
To follow a career or a vocation, for example, we have been forced to leave our homeland, and in so doing, become somebody else, assimilate the eways of others in order to be accepted, to deny our heritage and birthright, a non-Scot affecting the mores and traditions of others. Remaining in our our own land we have little if any chance to reject the policies imposed upon us. And we have damn all chance of creating wealth and keeping it here to benefit the community we live in.
We can, of course, become a larger Scot than the Scots themselves. You know the type of thing, kilt wearing, spouting Burns at every excuse, affecting an exaggerated stage Scots accent.
In both cases we conform to the expectations of others.
Had Scotland never been a nation in its own right there would be far less of an argument for a one-nation state or regaining sovereignty, but as the world sees democracy whittled away, civil rights eroded, and power placed in the hands of fewer and fewer people, the movement towards small country democracy is a natural trend, a protest and transition.
Sadly, we are so comprehensively colonised in mind and body politic it took only 400,000 to deny us the right of self-determination.
Anyhow, thank you for your very readable, and carefully considered comments. I hope my post augments them.
Ian Brotherhood:
If I remember rightly, Adam Boulton tried to get the ‘job’ which was won by Andy Coulson.
I saw Bolton’s interview with Salmond. His questions showed how poorly he checks his facts, each over-long loaded question full of false assertion, lazy journalism raised to an art form.
I felt sorry for Salmond forced to correct every second sentence out of Bolton’s mouth. Salmond has had to handle that colonial arrogance all his political life.
Call Kaye Radio Scotland from 8.50 tackling “Leaders” TV debates and Westminster debate on Devolution sans the “vow” leaders.
BBC RADIO SCOTLAND MORNING CALL
Call 0500 92 95 00. Text 80295.
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
Who would have thought that two little words, (“THE VOW”), would bring down the once mighty Daily Record.
If their sales get any lower, they will be movin into the old Scotsman’s old offices in Edinburgh.
David Clegg, their political editor and all round unionist bastard, should have this wrote on his headstone,
“It was “THE VOW” what done me.”
And why are do many “Davids” oppose Scottish democracy?
Don’t ever ever even think of buying a Daily Record.
@ronnie anderson says: 13 October, 2014 at 11:38 pm
“olso I did,nt want Paula Rose over excited.”
Weel! Ronnie, aiblins the connotations conjured bi the connection ye mak atween high heels an Lochgelly Tawse wis no exactly whit Ah haed in mind. Hooanivver, it haes noo pentit ae muckle kenspeckled piktur in ma mind noo ye cam mention it.
If they wanted English votes for English Laws why did they oppose Scottish Independence. They want to have their cake and eat it.
They are liars.
It only took 200,000 votes and a bunch of liars.
Wait for the duplicity as they tie themselves in knots.
@Grouse Beater
I m not sure I buy into the nationalist idea, for me independence was a common sense approach to moving fiscal responsability from WM to HR because WM was completely incompetant. many of the older people who voted no believed their pensions were safer in WM. If I am right, then WM will make our case for us in the coming months, Yes lost but the Nos didnt win
we only need to win once
“Don’t ever ever even think of buying a Daily Record”
perhaps the next PQ anti bbc demonstation should be held in front of the DR offices,
the bad publicity which would highlight their duplicity (and other pro union companies who threatened and lied to the people of scotland) would make them, think again
Galamcennalath: Truth, of course, is a rare commodity.
And never was a truer word spoken!
Call Kaye seems to be back permanently with us. She is discussing The Vow this morning and says the Scottish Government are wanting something called Devo-Max.
The Scottish Government want Independence, it was BBC Scotland and ALL the other media outlets who told the voters before the Referendum that they would get Devo-Max if the voted NO.
Jackie Bird, BBC Scotland, “Let’s just call it Devo-Max”.
Sky News, Ch4 News, Ch5 News, ITV News, STV News, all quoted the words Devo-Max.
Now they turn the whole thing on its head and are saying that this was an SNP idea from the start.
We are getting taken for mugs, again.
Alex Salmond came across really well and MUCH harder on Radio 4’s Today programme. I kind of wish that he was in the post-resignation mood during the indyref campaign because he swatted down the BBC presenter who mentioned the word “separation”
William Hague (on afterwards (as per usual) for the state broadcaster) was woolly, indefinite and even a hardened Unionist must see the irony that the ex Foreign Secretary is leading the devolution settlement talks today instead any of the 3 leaders of “The Vow” (who won’t be attending).
@Morag says: 13 October, 2014 at 11:52 pm:
“Dont know why some people are getting this disappearing post thing. It’s not happening to me.”
I had a few vanishing comments but discovered it was due to my use of a small and old netbook. I use it with a mouse but it also has a touch pad. I found, if I forgot to turn the touch pad off, I sometimes dragged the heel of my hand across the touch pad and it was that which caused vanishing posts.
Our referendum was fixed! Just look at THE VOW for Christ sake. All polls showed clear NO majority yet in came Crash Gordon and co with Devo max/federal UK at the vinegar stroke and changing everything that suckers like me thought they we were voting on weeks before.
It’s not enough to say it’s just the usual Westminster freak out or “I was there, I’m very clever and nothing gets passed me so shut up”
One poll out of hundreds showing a tiny swing to Yes, not even a majority yet just that one makes them leap in with epoc making THE VOW? Access to rolling exit postal polls that showed they had lost.
Did Kaye Adams get kicked off the “Loose Women” show to let Judy Finnigan on.
Kaye couldn’t have been as far up the arses of those English TV producers as she thought.
She’s back up here to tell us how much we hate the English.
@donald anderson at 7:43 am
“I don’t for one minute believe that Shuggy was naïve enough to expect other than the standard EBC reply. At least he could expect a pen friend for life.”
I saw something wrong.
I did something about it.
I posted about it.
You posted about it. And not even directly to me.
@Rev, I hope you get your window sorted and all goes well for you in the future.
Cheerio folks, it’s been unreal.
Shuggie, I thought I was addressing you directly and supporting your argument. Don’t have your personal email addy. I have complained endlessly to the EBC; ETV, newspaper editors and to the press complaints commission, None could give a straight answer to save their lives and all are cocky with it. I have, almost, give up complaining.
I suggest the next EBC rally splits half the time to march over the squinty bridge to the crooked Daily Reptile office in the Broomielaw.
Heedtraker: Our referendum was fixed! Just look at THE VOW for Christ sake.
Seconded.
Until the eleventh hour, and offered only in extremis, the policy was NO additional powers for Scotland.
In outcome, what the opposition to democracy did was illegal in electoral law, but they can claim they were within the boundaries because they only make a ‘vow,’ they did not state anything specific. That leaves them free to offer anything they want and still call it fulfilling their ‘vow.’
Remind me again, how many folk was it, who fell for that con, hook line and sinker? Maybe we should pack them off to Sark to live, happy no one will trouble them there with referenda.
‘English votes for english laws’
Not much of a Union is it?
Also, I wish to fuck you lot would stop going on and on about the referendum being fixed. It’s tedious, it’s boring and above all else, it’s absolute bollocks.
Adrian B says:14 October, 2014 at 12:40 am:
“The man in the van that received an anonymous phone call about the ballot papers was a strange one. None of these Yes “Ballots” were folded.”
For crying out loud, Adrian B, do a bit of checking before spouting crap. The guy who made the video is a very well known scammer on YouTube. He has videos all over YouTube taking the piss out of any kind of authority figures including Police, lawyers and courts.
Get it right the guy making the vidio is a well known scammer.
Some of the ballot papers were blank on the back. Fact. Do not try and make these people out to be deluded or liars, it is undignified.
As for complaining about the paper being blank when voting, why would you if you did not know at the time it should not be blank. Really are you for real.
The BBC are not changing their tune post-referendum so perhaps it is time for an organised sit-in at Pacific Quay next time there is a protest over bias.
It could be part of an campaign strategy of organised sit-ins to increase pressure on Westminster to honour their vow on devo-max.
If it was good enough for the Civil Rights movement in America then it is good enough for Scotland.
“We shall not be moved”.
Also, I wish to fuck you lot would stop going on and on about the referendum being fixed. It’s tedious, it’s boring and above all else, it’s absolute bollocks.
Explain THE VOW?
THE BALLOT PAPERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUCKING BLANK IF YOU ARE VOTING IN PERSON AT A POLLING STATION.
IF YOU VOTED BY POSTAL VOTE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A MARK ON THE BACK OF THEM.
IT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
“They want to have their cake and eat it.”
This superposition of states is now known as Schrodinger’s Cake. (New Scientist)
Unhappy about the leaders debates?
Complain here:
link to bbc.co.uk
And ofcom
link to consumers.ofcom.org.uk
If you do not complain they will not know the decision is wrong.
When someone links to a newspaper are we in some way contributing to the life of the paper ?
Don’t complain organise a sit-in at Pacific Quay if your are upset about the proposed leaders debate on the BBC.
A sit-in is peaceful protest that disrupts.
No, gillie, complain.
I’ve had it said to me that if more people complained things would change.
As it stands just now, there isn’t enough people complaining.
Miliband,Cameron will be absent to debate “extensive new powers” in Westminster today
as meatloaf said 2/3 aint bad
Sorry for posting those links to the blank ballot petitions upthread as it seems to have got Morag all fessed up again.
Sorry Morag.
Personally, I’m putting that one to be now. Burden of proof and all that.
Anyways, been over at WGD reading up on the TV debates for the GE.
Top notch commentary by the way.
Thinking about the situ with ONLY the 3 main leaders plus NF, apart from being a dull prospect for me I’d still like to see the opinions of those parties left out broadcast on air.
Perhaps those excluded parties could have their own TV debates excluding the big 4.
SNP, Greens, SSP, RIC etc. with an open invitation to other excluded parties from say Wales, NI, England etc. running alongside in fringe fomat.
Could this be the starting point for a new Scottish media?
Well jings. The last caller on the Kaye, mind the e, programme was a unionist Tory and he actually made some sense when talking about tv debates re GE.
He conceded that the SNP often had good policy ideas and that they should be heard throughout the UK, as with all parties because people should be exposed to policies (rather than politicians presumably). He thought it was ridiculous that the SNP were ignored in HOP. He was actually rather angry about it.
A lot of the other comments on the portion of the programme I heard, along with KayE’s constant intervention when the tone didn’t suit her, were fairly head in the sand.
Xaracen says:
“They want to have their cake and eat it.”
This superposition of states is now known as Schrodinger’s Cake.
aye, would it that these states were more than just possibilities, were they actualities, i could slip off into an alternate universe, one where yes had won
unfortunately, living at the arse end of an uncollapsed 11th dimensional probability wave……isn’t all its cracked up to be 🙁
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Donald Anderson 10.26am
“I suggest the next EBC rally splits half the time to march over the squinty bridge to the crooked Daily Reptile office in the Broomielaw.”
Great idea Donald, I also think that a protest at the Daily Record is well overdue. There is meant to be a BBC protest in a couple of weeks.
Complaining to BBC long and loud and think too. Pompous arse time here but last BBC2 monstered Scotland running Scotland in a history of European nationalism that attacked and piled all in together the Nazis, the Irish, AlicSamin, you and me for daring to vote Yes, from WW1 to 70’s Belfast, all of it savaged Scottish nationalism but Ofcourse the nice professor BBC type completely excluded the greatest, most perfect, most beautiful nationalism since the invention of nationalism, British nationalism. It’s so perfect it can’t even be mentioned out loud, UKOK
If I had a brain, it would have been washed, bleached and hung out to dry thanks to teamGB/BBC vote No or else propaganda last night. And it wasn’t a repeat!
This one slipped under the radar yesterday.
“Eurostar stake up for grabs in £10bn sell-off of government assets,”
link to theguardian.com
This is more of OUR assets getting sold cheaply to London based money men and no doubt they are very good friends of those within the Tory Party.
Did Scotland get asked if it would be ok to go ahead with the sale of these assets? Did they hell.
@chalks says:
14 October, 2014 at 10:05 am
THE BALLOT PAPERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUCKING BLANK IF YOU ARE VOTING IN PERSON AT A POLLING STATION.
@donald anderson says:
14 October, 2014 at 7:12 am
I was a polling clerk in Glasgow. All the papers had a bar code and serial number on the back. There were two of us at the table and we cross checked every address and serial number on the back onto a separate A4 yellow paper.
So they got the postal votes then…
@Morag says:14 October, 2014 at 12:29 am:
“Come on, somebody must have said something at the time. Somebody who photographed a paper must have had one of these not-so-elusive mutie papers.
You do realise, Morag, that you are keeping this topic alive much more than those making strange claims, don’t you? No one, far as I can see, has made any claims that the people checking the counters have done anything wrong. However, like all good illusions, the best ones are done in full view of an audience who are watching with the main reason being to detect how the trick is achieved.
Now I’m not saying there was anything wrong – just that the people watching the great illusionist make an elephant vanish before their eyes couldn’t see anything out of place either. May I suggest you ignore the stupid claims being made and let them rest in peace?
@ Robert Peffers
Well said Robert, if Morag would stop putting her tuppence thrupence and fourpence worth in to the discussion we would of had a conclusion on the whole corrupt ballot 2 weeks ago.
@ chalks
@ T Jenny says.
Having kept hold of my polling card, for posterity, I checked it the other day, and on the back of that there are 5 instructions on how to vote.
Number 5 states: ‘Show the staff the number on the back of your ballot paper before you put it in the ballot box.
Scott, would that happen to be in the event that you have a postal vote and are instead casting your postal vote at the polling station?
@Betty Boop says: 14 October, 2014 at 2:04 am:
“Robert. I’ve had quite a few conversations about the tawse now, but, you have made me chuckle at being regarded as a youngster at my advanced age!”
Ah! Yes! Betty Boop, but age is a concept that is relative. So I’ll make you chuckle again. You have confirmed you are indeed just, “A young thing”, in relation to myself. You state that the Lochgelly was more a threat than an actual WCD, (Weapon of Class Destruction), in the education system of your time.
I can assure you that in my time in that system it was much more than a threat and very liberally applied. Not only the tawse but any other handy, and not tied down, piece of Education Department equipment. I thus become adept at dodging flying chunks of everything from bits of chalk, 6′ blackboard rulers, wooden backed blackboard erasers, wooden desk rulers, 5′ blackboard pointers and anything else that came to the teachers hand.
What’s more I was one of the better pupils who actually had a thirst for knowledge. No one was spared for punishment was the main tool in the education department’s toolbox. Picture the scene – Big Johnny, (English Teacher), walking up and down the ranks of desks with the Lochgelly in one hand and a spelling book in the other. He starts by giving a page number and points to the first person in the row and barks out a word from the book. The luckless person must spell that word or hold out their hand. Meanwhile Big Johnny is already pointing to the next pupil and barking out the next word.
That was the system – spell the word or get Lochgellied. I kid you not – the Lochgelly never left his hand. In other tasks that required him to use both hands the Lochgelly was worn over his shoulder inside his jacket and he was known in the school as, “The Fastest Draw in the East”.(Leith). The speed with which that Lochgelly could be drawn and applied was breathtaking. Tell you something, I knew no one in those days who was illiterate, I wonder why?
My primary school teacher, Mr Mack, had 3 belts, and he let you choose! They were called Black Magic, Rawhide and Sting. Luckily, I never experienced them.
@Scot Finlayson says: 14 October, 2014 at 10:15 am:
“When someone links to a newspaper are we in some way contributing to the life of the paper?”
YES!
use archive this at –
link to archive.today
You will find a button at the top of their page that you can Drag & Drop on your browser toolbar. Then just copy your link to archive it. Then the paper or site gets nothing.
Grouse Beater, I’m fed up with your repeated personal attacks. First, I didn’t raise the subject, I never do and I never have. It annoys the hell out of me. Yesindyref2 is quite right that the presence on the list of speakers for Sunday of two known conspiracy nuts was one of the reasons I didn’t go.
Second, it was the middle of the bloody night, and Stu was still on “holiday” at the time.
Why is it that anyone else is free to come into a thread about any subject and start wittering nonsense about blank ballot papers and vote-tampering, but suddenly if I respond it’s all about me?
It’s OK for people to make wild, nonsensical, impossible allegations that damage the Yes movement, but it’s not OK for me to respond? Really?
Lochside asserts that “Britain … is not an entity, it’s a geographical area.” No, for 300 years the people of Britain have worked together to create an unusual form of state, in which all its members have equal rights. In 1707 Scotland and England merged to form a new entity. This has been held together by the efforts of the vast majority, the working class. The TUC held its first Congress in Glasgow, not London.
Scotland is in a completely different relationship than Ireland ever was. Ireland’s Act of Union was not a partnership in any way; it was a relation of subordination and exploitation. Historians can write of a Scottish Empire, but have never ventured to claim there was an Irish Empire. There have been no Irish Prime Ministers, but plenty of Scottish ones.
I never heard anyone refer to a Scottish Empire.
Fiona says:
14 October, 2014 at 3:54 pm
I never heard anyone refer to a Scottish Empire.
Yes Fiona, the Brit Nat revisionist historians are always doing that. “Treaty of Union was wonderful. Clearances never happened, etc, etc, etc.” Michael Fry wrote a book on the “Scottish Empire”, when he was Tory, before he Joined the SNP. The Brit left Nationalists do the same. “Scotland was ever a colony, blah , blah”.
Morag:I’m fed up with your repeated personal attacks.
You need to learn the difference between a personal attack and a specific plea – as others have made, some obliquely, some direct – asking you to argue your hobbyhorse subject where it doesn’t monopolise topics, or break-up discussion.
Heedtracker put it differently:
It’s not enough to say… “I was there, I’m very clever, and nothing gets passed me, so shut up!”
He suggests it’s you telling others to shut up. He has a point. I suggest a normal person would not feel obliged to respond to every Jack and Jill questioning the Referendum process. Only someone with a grandstanding obsession will squander his time and energy.
Why not refer ‘miscreants’ to your best reposte and leave it at that? After all, all you get out of your fury is loss of temper and sore fingetips.
Podmore: Ireland’s Act of Union was not a partnership in any way; it was a relation of subordination and exploitation.
Good try. Scotland began as the junior partner and soon found itself the subordinate partner, and remained so.
Historians can write of a Scottish Empire.
Erm, no. They can talk only of Scots in subaltern roles on behalf of the British government, that is, outside the hegemonic power structure, employed by it. Ship-owners were part of the British-English Empire, profiting by it because it existed already, not because they created and claimed it on behalf of the Scottish Crown.
There have been no Irish Prime Ministers
A spurious claim. Three have Irish descent, Jim Callaghan the last, I think, but Irish have no cause to become prime minister of the UK. They have their own country.
Grouse Beater
The Chookie Wellington was Irish. He also served in a native Highland regiment.
Donald: The Chookie Wellington was Irish.
Aye, he was, Donald, one of the three I had in mind.
His famous boot was fashioned by his shoemaker, given the name ‘Wellington’ as a marketing ploy; Wellington took no part in its design or fabrication.
Many of the Highland sojers coming back from Waterloo had to hoof it home from Dover to their empty glens and straths. To face the Clearances the BritHistorians say never happened.
The Duke of Wellington deserves merr than a cone oan his heid. His statue deserves pulling down, along with all the other Imperial statues beloved of the Labour numpties.
There was no such thing as a Scottish Prime Minister. They were all British Nationalists.
Donald: They were all British Nationalists.
Another truism.
You’ll recall none canvassed on the basis of enhancing Scotland’s status in the world and bring it home rule. Ironically, it was a Tory, Sir Alec Douglas Home, who promised most but failed to deliver when he secured Number 10.
Now we have Gordon the Hapless telling MPs not to give Scotland full powers having lied brazenly to the people of Scotland he would deliver exactly that.
Can we go back to being the Chris Cairns fan club and discussing lipstick on this thread now? The Rev is back so all you serious people have somewhere to go. This enlightenment also benefits from frivolity.
WoS: You don’t have a national team.
Ouch! Straight for the jugular.
Fiona: I never heard anyone refer to a Scottish Empire.
Glasgow Empire, yes, Scottish Empire, no.
Donald Anderson claims, “the Clearances the BritHistorians say never happened.” Not so, I think you’ll find that most historians say, not that the clearances never happened, but that Scottish landowners shared a large part of the blame. We are a single country, divided by class.
Not in my experience at uni and arguing with academic Brit Nats. First they are in denial by saying it never happened, then they say you did it yourselves and then they say it was good for and you were better off in Canada, etc.
What happened was that the clan lands, there were held in trust by the chief, were forfeited, then given back to those who swore allegiance to the Crown under the Heritable Jurisdiction Act. If the line was dead, or the chief remained in exile they would find the nearest relative down the line who would swear Hanoverian Allegiance and he would then become a defacto “Lord of the Manor”, English style. His sons had to be educated South and came back with new landlord vices and aspirations, meaning cash rent where man rent was a tradition to clan loyalty. Sheep were more profitable than people and the old cattle economy, upsetting the ecology
Marx said of the tall people of Sutherlandshire who came to the closes and wynds of Glasgow that their children were reduced in stature and were pigeon chested and palefaced, etc.
Tom Devine has now come round for Independence and has acknowledge the work of John Prebble, whom many tried to dismiss as a mere journalist. Prebble was English born and raised in a Highland part of Canada till he was nine year of age. He retired to the Scottish Highlands and came out for a Scottish Socialist Republic before he died.
Plodmore: Highland Clearances: Historians say Scottish landowners shared a large part of the blame.
They they show their pig ignorance.
That is like saying the poor bring their destitution upon their own heads by being poor.
Clan chiefs were reduced to the role of landlord by the ravages of external English wars, land stolen from them, and political pressure to conform to the ‘modern world.’ It took generations but in the end many had no choice.
Then there was the sheep that ate the saplings and screwed the land.
Donald: Prebble was English born and raised in a Highland part of Canada till he was nine year of age. He retired to the Scottish Highlands and came out for a Scottish Socialist Republic before he died.
I knew him well, in the last decade of his life.
Few realise he wrote the movie script for ‘Zulu.’
Prebble also wrote Buffalo Soldier, about black troops in the Union Army after US the Civil War..
The worst of the Clearances landlords was the Earl of Stafford a Liberal MP. He married the Duchess of Sutherland. When he arrived the clan piper, who was next to the chief in clan society, came out to greet him. He =handed him his baggage and gave him a tip. The sign of things to come.
Donald: Prebble also wrote Buffalo Soldier
Aye, and not forgetting the Italian made – UK transmitted television series, ‘The Borgias’ with Adolpho Celi in the lead. When cast no one knew his thick Sicilian accent had been dubbed for his James Bond villain in ‘Thunderball.’
I am still laughing at Plodmore’s attempt to have us believe clan Chiefs all got together on a Saturday and by Sunday forsaken their clans and lands preferring to become penurous landlords, and watch their kith and kin driven from the hills abroad, or piled high in Glasgow slums. It seems English historian think that’s how it all came about, in one weekend parly over a few malt whiskies.
Grouse Beater wrote, “Clan chiefs were reduced to the role of landlord by the ravages of external English wars, land stolen from them, and political pressure to conform to the ‘modern world.’ It took generations but in the end many had no choice.”
This is to accept that clan chiefs became landlords and acted like landlords, by clearing people off the land, to make room for sheep. He follows up with an amusing little scenario, which he generously, if falsely, attributes to me.
I would also remind him of Wings’ house rules about avoiding ‘puerile name-calling’. We are grown-ups, aren’t we?
Prebble took most of his stuff from MacKenzie and Anderson and named his sources, including MacLeod and Kidd. Eric Richardson, now in Australia, wrote “The Leviathan of Wealth” in some detail. You have only to travel the Highlands today to see the vast man made wilderness created by the Clearances. According to Webster’s Parish Register in 1750, most of the Scottish Population lived North of the Highland line. Incidentally, Galloway and South Ayrshire were still Gaelic speaking at hat time and Glaschu still has the highest Gaelic speaking population in the world.
Even the Loyalist clans suffered during the Clearances and aftermath of Culloden. They also suffered from the Proscription Act of 1746, where the kilts, tartans (which some historians tried to say never existed), Highland Greatcoat, cross belt and weapons, plus the great Highland bagpipe, dubbed warpipe, and clarsach (harp) were all proscribed. People were also randomly shot or hung for not complying. One twelve year old black boy, a Stewart of Appin, if I remember correctly, was hung at the roadside for wearing the kilt.
I wouldn’t accuse English historians, apart from the eccentric chauvinist, J P Taylor and a couple of others, of being responsible. Most are ignorant of Scottish history, or couldn’t care less. Socialist historians, such as EP Thompson, Christopher Hill and Eric Hobsbawm (Industry and Empire) , all admit their British histories are really English histories.
I would blame BRITISH nationalist historians for misconceptions, none worse than the North British varieties. I would argue that the North British cringer politician are also a despicable species. No one likes a snitch. Could the average English person name, or respect, the Secretary of Sate for Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland.
As for Grousebeater calling you Plodmore, I wouldn’t take that too serious. I am sure we have all been called worse. Have al look at he loyalist knuckle dragging cybernats on the Hootsmon sight to see what I mean.
Plodmore: He follows up with an amusing little scenario
Checking your provocation got an answer? Here’s another:
The ‘scenario,’ as you call it, aptly reflects your crooked logic, and that of the (unnamed) historians you are so keen to quote.
Please don’t treat readers as idiots – don’t try to convince you’re only the messenger, you don’t actually believe the wild generalities you post.
Donald: Galloway and South Ayrshire were still Gaelic speaking
You know your history, Donald. The myth still lingers that Gaelic speakers never lived further south than Perth.(Finished Hobsbawm’s last book of essays recently – a fine read.)
Have you ever been tae Pertick? Angus Og still lives in Govan.
Donald: Angus Og still lives in Govan.
Neat!
I agree that E. P. Thompson (author of The Making of the ENGLISH Working Class)very unfortunately didn’t write about Scottish or Welsh workers. This reflects the old revisionist CPGB’s muddle on the rather important matter of class. Not only did it reject white collar workers as not proper workers, it also divided the British working class by treating English workers as completely different from Scottish and Welsh workers. The first TUC was held, remember, not in London but in Glasgow.
Trade unions know better than most that united we stand, divided we fall.
Hi Will, the Tame Unions sold the jerseys a long time ago, taking the ermine and policing Labour pay freezes. They also supported closing down the Scottish Trade Unions and the SCWS in 1974. You have to contract OUT of their political levy and then it goes to a political fund which goes still goes to the Labour Party. The GMT is an exception. Most Union branches here voted to support the Yes campaign, but the Bureaucracy persuaded them to be “neutral£. Aye right? Getting a full time Union job and a gold card is like winning the Lottery.
During the General Strike in 1924 they were offered by the Government to take over the country and they bottled it, along with the scab Labour Party.
Donald, yes, all too many union leaders have retired to cushy numbers in the House of Lords.
Six major unions backed the No campaign.
But to separate unions into ‘the Bureaucracy’ and the members is as divisive and wrong as to split the British working class into Scottish, English and Welsh, or as splitting unions into manual against white-collar.
The rulers know that ‘divide and rule’ works for them; workers know that ‘unite and liberate’ works for us.
Will Podmore
There is nothing socialist about Trade Unions. They were absorbed into the British establishment a long time ago, as was the Labour Party.
As a shop steward, many moons ago, I spent more time fighting the Union bureaucracy than I did fighting the bosses, who used to laugh up their sleeves at their numptiness and corruption. They used to love saying we would love to give you a rise, but Labour has frozen your wages. Baron Lord Cooper of the MBGWU was held in less regard than Lord Pilkington, our Labour card carrying employer, whom (Lord) Harold Wilson’s Monopoly Commission ruled in his favour, by the workforce.
Why stop at London ruling the Tame Unions? Why not Paris, Bonn, Rome, or Moscow, etc? James Connolly’s Irish Transport and General Workers Unions was a world apart from the Royal Transport and General Workers Union, who absorbed the Scottish Transport and General Workers Union and Scottish Horse and Motorman’s Union, etc, etc.
As for white collars. Most Union members in Scotland are employed in Call Centre with lousy wages and conditions incomparable to the wealthy full time Union Barons.
At least the American Unions were openly gangsters and had nothing but contempt for the grovelling, class deference of the Tame unions of Britain. Few had the stature and moral fibre of Bob Crowe.
How many times do you need telt, Podmore? Fuck your Britain, i’m Scottish, not British.