They think it’s all over
Posted on
December 27, 2014 by
Chris Cairns
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Brilliant.
Brilliant, sums it all up perfectly. You Chris are a genius
Maybe it is time to make wee Hamish be a little bit bigger and John Bull a little bit smaller, older and haggard looking?
Although, that image up there comes very close and could be the prototype for future cartoons?
Who am I to give suggestions to the Master. I think I’m a Panda.
A superb depiction of what is taking place in Scottish political thinking today. Let’s hope and pray that it all comes to fruition on 7th May, 2015.
[…] They think it’s all over […]
For all those who missed this latest poll in the Guardian.
I thought it was the perfect pick me up for a Saturday morning, especially when I just came off nightshift.
“Labour set for a bloodbath in Scotland in general election, poll says.”
link to theguardian.com
Brilliant, as ever Chris.
Brilliant,just brilliant.
Earnest hope is that on the 8th May 2015 Mr Cairns can recycle this cartoon with a full borrowing from Kenneth Wolstenholme “They think it all over . . . it is now!”
Genius Chris!
Let’s hope we finish ‘him’ off soon.
The picture illustrates it perfectly. While we are technically the losers, we were fighting against a much bigger, much better equipped foe, and yet we emerged with heads held high, and knowing that our time WILL come. The “winners”, on the other hand are fragmented and fragmenting, losing support due to their duplicitous (tick) activities, and TBH can’t actually say WHAT they have “WON”.
I like the idea espoused in the “Asterix the Gaul” books, where, when it was pointed out that the little indomnitable village was massively outnumbered and surrounded, the Roman was advised that this gave the advantage to the Gauls, as they were now more likely to hit someone with every blow, whereas the Romans would end up having to fight among themselves to get to the smaller enemy and were less likely to land any blows. Come to think of it, that is EXACTLY what we have here…:)
Excellent, Chris, your best since i joined WOS.
Lets hope you’ll be delivering the standing 8 count come May.
(standing 8 count due to Labour only having 8 MPs remaining)
And that you’ll be delivering the big KO version in 2016.
🙂
Aye , well done Chris
2nd , BTP .
Hamish lost but farrrrr fae finished , growing again !
Ready for GE2015 .
O/T Ian McW on GMS @ 8.15
A great one to finish an exhausting year. Hamish is thinking, “Oh, do you think so?”
The re-match is only a few short months away, tick tock..
Cracker Chris and catches the mood perfectly. 🙂
Ding, ding! Round two in May and rope a dope is almost done.
‘Course the big chunky lad thought the fight was done on independence, but self determination is about so much more than the recent referendum. They’re about to find out its also about reforming your system of government and that we’re more than capable of doing with or without full sovereignty.
People choosing to engage with their politics and clean hoose. We’re part of a union and we send representatives to a house of joint government. The operative phrase being ‘WE SEND’. Its ‘OUR CHOICE’ who we send to represent and defend our interests within the union.
Now, does anyone feel that Scotland’s contingent of Conservative, Labour and Liberal representatives have done a bang up job of caring for Scotland’s electorate, its economic interests or the disposition of its contributions to the union in say, oh the past fifty years at least?
Doesn’t matter whether you voted YES or NO in September. Take a look around you at the management of the economy, big government’s handling of our society, how they represent us and conduct themselves at Westminster. Take a look at how they interact with other nations and how they have portrayed the Scots electorate to the world.
Well have they done a good job, or do you think we can send down more effective representation?
Well do ya? 🙂
Hamish is angry, he’s come through the battle against John Bull unscathed with not a mark on him.
Meanwhile JB has been run ragged, is exhausted & has had more than enough & just wants the bout to end.
It does end but only with the collusion of the referee who announces the winner as being JB. Clearly a distortion of the facts-makes it look as though Scotland was beaten by UK-yeah right-but could only do it by collusion.
Well they certainly did that but Hamish is so fit (and angry) that he’s ready to go again for round 2-just like us & indy folk everywhere. There’s no putting us down, we just bounce back up again stronger than ever.
John Bull just doesn’t know how to beat us without lieing & conniving.
Brilliant cartoon once again Chris- very well done 🙂
Fought under Queensbury rules no doubt.
Aha brilliant, Chris!
Just love the expression. It’s all in the eyes.
Unionist Politicans are just, greedy, manipulating, anti democratic liars. They will not survive, the will of the people. The majority of people despise them, and no wonder. Good riddance to bad rubbish. May they rot in hell for the trouble they have caused in the world.
They are now attacking Russia and will cause depression in Europe. 26Million Russians died in the 11WW to preserve the West’s freedom and ‘capitalism’. 1/2 million each – British, French and Americans were killed. The Western powers are despicable. They just can’t get enough. They are now starving people, worldwide.
The ‘Royals’ tiptoe through the poppies for the War their family caused, which killed millions. They are hypocrites.
Belter!
macart 8:54am Great words!
Conan the Librarian 8:59am “It’s all in the eyes”. Did you mean, It’s all in the AYES?..
Excellent, thank you Chris.
It’s all in the ayes. (A small correction for Conan there).
That Cartoon so encapsulates what the Referendum has done, that John Bull won but he really lost. Love it.
No no no…Yes,
Great minds etc…
Absolutely spot on Chris. Brilliant. Nail smack on the head. Let’s hope we have the reversal of the bout result some time soon.
Brilliant Chris, usual high standard.
Methinks John Bull has tried to punch above his weight once to often.
2014 – The warm-up.
2015 – The rematch.
2016 – The decider.
Or could it be a case of 20-20 vision?
((((( LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE )))))
🙂
This is the best toon yet, IMO
Encapsulates perfectly all that has happened in 2014, and gives a strong hint as to what is to come!
Perhaps the most important question looking back on 2014 could be – what did the Unionists hope to achieve by playing quite so dirty? They could make the short term gain of getting more votes on the 18th, yes, but in so doing they probably had to destroy any hope their Union had of surviving to achieve that.
In Scotland, the Labour Party sowed the wind; it will reap the whirlwind.
Galamcennalath – they destroyed any hope of the majority believeing them in the next referendum. Coming soon at a place near you!
Labour’s ego lulled it into thinking it won the Referendum, but as Westminster, big business, the establishment media, the BBC and three Westminster and Holyrood parties made up No, the reality is now coming to haunt them.
Most of that support has gone, and even worse for them, moved on to supporting the Tories in England. Even London Labour will not be able to support, it is looking now to ‘capture’ the south, but failing it seems.
Spot on again Chris. Round umpteen now starting and Hamish looking good. That Ref needs to get a rule book!
@Ken500, also spot on but I would add that they have been using the same methods for a long long time and only now, thanks to the internet and sites like these, are we able to see through the propaganda.
@caz-m interesting link to Guardian poll. Panic will be rising in Westminster for GE 15 .
Best cartoon along with the candle of hope.
Bring on round 2 in May.
@ No no no…YES
Ta much, but its simple truth and that’s something our current Westminster team are strangers to. They aren’t representing our interests effectively and haven’t done so for some time. What is widely recognised, is that whether you love them or loathe them, the current SG are effective in government. Far more so than the accepted political establishment.
So if I’m looking for representation in Westminster who can safeguard my interests, a representation that will, at least, take the edge off austerity and deprivation passed down from the cack handed current UK system and self interested management, then I’m looking to send down a pro Scotland MP. That won’t be anyone from the Labour, Tory or Liberal parties. 😉
You kinda need someone you can trust to get the job done. 😀
John Curtis
No less than 94% of those with both a Westminster and Holyrood (constituency) vote intention say that they would vote the same way in the two contests.
bfh—must be quite a few NO voters,thought save the Union,BUT vote differently within the Union
Thanks Chris. Just a fantastic review of the Referendum in one picture!
@ Jim Thomson & Betty Boob (Hydro Tunnel)
In the tunnel,the long long tunnel
the Lion wont sleep tonight.
Were you in that tunnel from the hydro to the subway Chris.
UK whimper away whimper away.
Punching below our weight,but punching harder.
Great cartoon Chris.
Fantastic Chris.Its just the way it is.
Brilliant, Chris. This now takes the place of your “Fields of Gold” cartoon as my favourite to date. More power to your elbow, Hamish.
Lots of hatching, no colour, genius Chris 😉
The first bout and Hamish’s eyes have been opened! Now when’s the rematch? And let’s not have a Yank as the ref next time either.
Next round, gloves aff!
The Wee Ginger Dug took a different tac, as he says he has broken the habit of smoking and voting Labour and he says so many in Scotland have done the same. Voting Labour is not the way to go for a healthy life here in Scotland.
Poor old sloppy JB only won the first round (just), and is already exhausted, with two black eyes, slumped on the stool, and reluctant to go another round. The planned knock-out blow he was depending on failed to materialize. Hamish, on the other hand, is fit, hardly marked, and will only grow stronger the longer fight goes on.
14 more rounds,John. You ain’t knocking this cat out!
Superb illustration covering so much, so well. Congratulations, Chris.
John Bull is barely fit to stand far less purr!
Pyrrhic victory, anyone?
Its a bettertogether toryboy world though. Google Citylink boss warns Scotland 18 Sept and the Tory that just walked away from 2500 workers comes up online-
“One of the businessmen who told Scots to vote no as if he was some kind of a benevolent wise sage, just put his company City Link into receivership on Christmas Eve destroying 2700 families Christmases. He also donated £450,000 to the Tories earlier this year – throwing good money after bad.”
450 grand to his Tory chums but that google search alone brings up endless lists of BBC, UKOK media vote NO because very rich bosses don’t want “uncertainty” reportage. There’s only one certainty in May.
What a great pic!
The Lion is ready for the rematch alright!
We go again, lads and lassies. We go again!
And
We win!
Outstanding, just love the look on Hamish’s face
@ Ronnie Anderson, 10:25
Aye, Ronnie, you were in fine voice that day – that tunnel had great acoustics, Ronnie, and a fair bit of echo! So, thinking about echoes and returning, looks like Hamish is thinking, “Next time, gotcha next time!”
Great cartoon.
Fought under the Queens(bury independence rules ), as well as any other rules they could invent I think it was a technical knockout.Hamish’s hands couldn’t stand any more punishment. Back in training now. Like the great Ali.we shall come back stronger than ever,and every blow will count. Can;t wait for he bell.
Calgacus says:
“Next round, gloves aff!”
Now yer talkin ma language.
Stuff yer Queensberry Rules, bare knuckles it is then.
😉
John Bull ruled half the world by lying and conniving. Liberty was only granted to other nations when Whitehall realised it could no longer use military force against them for one reason or another.
Labour for the last five years, the party of opposition! what exactly did they oppose? Scotland. . labour spent the last five years working against the Scottish people, bedroom tax, welfare benefits, they deserve nothing better than extinction, Labour has ceased to be the peoples party, unless you have a bloody good bankbook
It’s not the humour in the cartoon that’s striking but the simple description of where we stand (sic) at this moment in time.
NO got the vote by fair means or faul (most probably) and YES, saddend but not beaten, is raring to go. There’s a lot of big fat ladies waiting to sing before we give up.. 😉
O/T
Simon Heffer has just passed wind again in the form of an Almanac for 2015. Scotland/SNP plays a role again in his rather tormented mind and the comments – well, er, !?#*
I’m certain Heffer actually believes this stuff..!
link to archive.today
Hamish is looking good for another 10 rounds, hope we only need another two
Alex @The pnr we really need to reset the money order in the world to much in too few pockets
@ heedtracker
re Citylink
The Curse of the No funders.
@ stoker.
Gloves off.
I’m with you on that. We’re finding out they had lead weights in their gloves and the leather was soaked in vinegar.
Queensbury rules Westminster style.
Brilliant!
(That’s how things are and am glad they’re that way:)
Starlaw, so well put. Labour, the “opposition”, what a contradiction.
I heard that dunce of a Tory leader, Ruth Davidson, laugh her head off in a radio debate at the denial ’45’- ers, the losers, were indulging in triumphalism – which, of course, she did herself at the moment of explaining her point, thus destroying her case in the course of making it.
Nevertheless, I’d be loathe to make any claims of assured SNP success in the coming general election. Steely resolve and keeping cards close to our chest is better than jeers, booes, and over-the-top bravura of the like exhibited by Davidson as a pretence at mature discussion.
The British Establishment has all the big guns. Taking them by surprise requires stealth and cunning.
Slightly O/T,but someone gave me a book at Christmas about 50 people who had ruined Scotland.Wendy Alexander was in it becuase of the Edinburgh tram debacle,but there were forgiving tones expressed,i.e. not her fault etc .Mr Salmond was slaughtered for arrogance and failure to understand his own people.Needless to say the book now resides in the bin with the rest of the unwanted Xmas debris,and the donor given in no uncertain terms,the depth ofmy feeling towards the gift.We remain friends for now.
Very succinct and funny with it.
And the winner is…
Err…
The loser?!
No wonder they can’t get their heads around it 😀
Many thanks to Chris for some seriously thoughtful humour through this roller-coaster of a year. Helped make the unbearable bearable.
Isabel Fraser is an excellent investigative journalist who in every presentation she provides is entirely unbiased in her approach to interviewing MP’s, MSP’s, Government Ministers and any other persons with whom she is tasked to establish and maintain a discussion.
It was for this reason that she was removed from our television screens midway through the referendum campaign and relegated to an obscure radio show.
The disgraceful decision bringing about her removal was taken by the Labour biased BBC managers in Scotland not long after she dismantled a number of blustering bully boy Labour MP’s who faced with honesty and integrity fell apart when pressed to provide evidence substantiating many of the wild assertions that other presenters, more accepting of the BBC management inclinations had accepted without question.
She is my BBC journalist of the referendum campaign and I am of the view we should press the BBC for her return to our screens, the present lot are simply a bunch of sycophants doing their master’s bidding.
But we should be the masters since we pay their very large salaries.
I have compiled a package of her best interviews. The make compelling viewing
link to caltonjock.com
Luigi says: at 10:57 am
“The planned knock-out blow he was depending on failed to materialize. ”
Looking back now, with somewhat clearer vision, that is the aspect which I just can’t see … what was the Unionist’s strategy to win convincingly?
They had to tell some massive lies and make promises they had no intentions of fulfilling, just to scape through gaining the most votes.
WM, the establishment, Unionist parties cannot possibly have believed that would achieve anything more than buying the Union some extra time, but at the expense of angering even more Scots.
Now seems the Unionist embarked on tactics for short term vote gain, but a strategy for medium term self destruction.
Perhaps it’s because they treated this huge constitutional issue the same way as they now carry out all WM politicking … never looking beyond the short term.
Great depiction of the state of play Chris.A classic to send more shivers down the jellyfish-like spines of the Westminster groupies,including Galloway who I just watched interviewing some Tory MP on his TV show on RT.
Galloway loved him and said they should both combine and start a new party which would sweep the board.Good insight into Galloways true values and motives.
Love it, Chris.
Always good to check out Wings to find there`s another Chris Cairns cartoon (they`re a lot more than that) raising eyebrows and, hopefully, causing bellyache to our unionist friends.
All the best to you.
Great Chris, sums the situation up nicely.
They’ve already started Project Fear 2 but this time we know from the start just how dirty they will fight.
All eyes open and on the prize to be won.
perfect.
🙂
I learn so much from this site.I have just watch “Vote Vote Vote for Nigel Barton” on UTube written 50 years ago by Dennis Potter, and am reading Robert Tressell’s “The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists” written 100 years ago both recommended by Wingers, both disturbingly familiar with life today.To lighten my entertainment are Chris’s cartoons published in book form and where can I buy them?
Bob Mack says:
someone gave me a book at Christmas about 50 people who had ruined Scotland
I was given a copy, happily bought from Oxfam where the book belongs.
The author, Allan Brown, a former Times Scotland writer – ‘Scotland’ a gross misnomer appended to that rag – seems to have an ambition to become the P.J. O’Rourke of Scotland.
I could not get beyond page thirty of O’Rourke’s nauseas right-wing detestation of everybody’s rights and liberties except his precious own.
Brown’s book joins his in getting consigned to the trash can.
Love it Chris,
We lost a vote on the day, round one. Round Two, Hamish and the Ayes have it. Onwards and upwards.
@Liz 1:12pm
Aye Liz and we’ve started fighting back too, reminding the voters of firstly the fiasco of the Scottish Parliament building, then the Edinburgh tram shambles, the Aberdeen city centre debacle, and the re development of George square farce. Add to these Jack Mc Connell returning 1.5 billion pounds of the block grant because Labour couldn’t think of anything to spend it on.
And how many new powers have been delivered so far?
They’ve done nothing for Scotland and spent their time feathering their own nests.
Times up.
Liz says: They’ve already started Project Fear 2
Says a lot about the jerk who is deliriously happy to come out as the author of the phrase, and does so with pride.
gerry parker
it’s always worth reminding people when labour claim to have set up the scottish parliament, that they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do so.
link to electricscotland.com
Boris: Isabel Fraser is an excellent investigative journalist
Which is why BBC Scotland relegated her to the hinterland.
‘The Bastardisation of the BBC’ Grouse Beater on WordPress
Briiliant Chris 🙂
Anger Channeled = Determination
Scots Anger Channeled = Self Determination
We’ll Determine our own Destiny.
Lead story on Newsnet this a.m. was a full transcript of Chapter 2 of G.A.Ponsonby’s forthcoming book.
Very interesting in particular re the unreported truth about David Marshall MP’s resignation and the truth about the Trump nonsense.
What chance do you reckon there is of book reviews of it in all the blats when it is published.
Can anybody recall a Scottish painter or graphic artist who made plain their support of self-governance?
There were many, but it seemed to me the SNP concentrated on actors and movie stars – most who live outside Scotland – as first call for celebrity endorsement.
Yet a great many of our painters are world class and respected as such. Why the omission?
Vettriano – the ‘people’s painter’ – is by far the most rewarded financially … did he call it for Scotland?
@ Gerry Parker
Time’s up
And
Tea’s oot.
@gus1940 1:59pm
GAP’s fundraiser is now only £95 from making its target.
I’m sure they’ll be appreciative of a few more contibutions.
link to indiegogo.com
As for the likelihood of proper reviews, I have no idea. I’ve stopped buying the MSM rags and now try to grab a copy of the National on a daily basis (none available in the Troon Co-op this morning, sadly). I’m willing to bet that it will be reviewed in that title.
and, of course, that should be “contributions” [sigh]
Disgracefully for some, it IS all over. Craig Murray who would have been an outstanding candidate was turned down for refusing to back the bedroom tax.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
@Bugger (the Panda)
from your earlier post (12:01pm) can I take it that the City Link delivery lot (not the bus shower) were donors to the No campaign?
@Grouse Beater
‘Vettriano – the ‘people’s painter’ – is by far the most rewarded financially … did he call it for Scotland?’
I think Vettriano (not a fan) was a Yes. Peter Howson definitely, & I know Ken Curry was & is very pro Yes. Alasdair Gray is of course an artist as well as a writer.
Interestingly No-es tended to be on the conceptual/abstract side.
Anybody hear Craig Murray has been barred from S.N.P. candidates list?
Great cartoon. Hamish is his fighting fit, but what does he think of the SNP vetting committee and their refusal to allow Craig Murray to stand? Personally I believe it to be a very shortsighted decision. We need people of his calibre to put a rocket under the establishment. Is this the end of the yes movement?
What the hell was it with Craig Murray, I thought that the SNP was dead /against/ the bedroom tax! (Have just looked at his statement, so if anyone can shed any light as to what is going on …)
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Very poor. The Yes movement is officially dead.
Just read Craig Murrays statement.I would hope that what he has said is not entirely accurate.If the S.N.P thinks that they would support the bedroom tax with Labour in return for something,they better remember that there are other parties out there whosupport independence,and I could easily voye for them instead.I do not think I would be alone in that.
On craig murray vetting, I suspect that the bedroom tax is a hypothetical question to test party discipline which has served the snp well and sensible would have said he would abstain as matter of conscience
Iain: Alasdair Gray is of course an artist as well as a writer.
Alastair is a graphic artist. I was hoping for painters, my point being the SNP never put them to the fore. I know of a few Yes supporters who tend to the abstract, none of whom were given the time of day.
If Vettriano did say Yes, why was he not given a platform to promote his views?
And I don’t regard conceptual artists as painters, but I have a feeling you agree with that strict definition.
Regardless of what you think of Craig Murray, barring him for refusing a hypothetical party instruction to vote for the bedroom tax (because some how taking a principled stand rather than kowtowing to “group think” makes you a bad choice to be a WM MP) is frankly nuts.
If the SNP think he is just a loose cannon they can’t afford to carry just be honest and say so rather resorting to some faux loyalty test.
Craig Murray is barred from S.N.P. candidate list.
I wonder what Morag has to say about it?
Is this the end of the yes movement?
Not in the long term, but it does mark the end of the 2014 campaign. The SNP’s return to a political party is now complete. Many expected this to happen before the GE (probably because it had to).
Earlier, from the Scotsman:
link to scotsman.com
Craig Murray
“I was asked at assessment whether, as part of a Westminster deal with another party, I would agree to vote for the bedroom tax if instructed by the Party. I replied “No.” End of SNP political career. Problem is, I really believed we were building a different kind of politics in Scotland. I also knew that a simple lie would get me in, but I couldn’t bring myself to utter it.”
Says it all. He wasn’t expected to lie, he was expected to agree to absolute party discipline. Is he saying that if he did lie to get accepted, he would break ranks later?
A very big part of how we managed to get a referendum at all, and why the SNP have challenged and potentially replaced Labour, is due to discipline within. They present a common coherent front at all times.
A successful party needs to agree to agree in public. Loose cannons lose votes.
The SNP needs a huge effort on a narrow front, with no dissenters, nobody breaking ranks. They would be crucified by the MSM if there was a hint of internal disagreement on any policy.
I have respect for Craig Murray, but it is possible he doesn’t belong with any party. His best chance of election might be as an independent for Holyrood 2016.
Hamish “floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee”!
I’m disgusted by the decision not to select Craig Murray as a candidate for the SNP simply because he has PRINCIPLES.
Lions led by donkeys right enough.
Re Craig Murray
I reckon the rejection had more to do with the 350 word statement (possibly combined with his answer to a party discipline question). The SNP have been very disciplined in Holyrood and it shows. They have to be in a parliament where the other main parties are hostile to the point of being destructive towards Scotland. At Westminster, it will be even more hostile and they will have to marshall every move – every party there will be out to pull them down and Scotland with them.
Don’t get me wrong, I reckon we need folk like Craig Murray. I admire his principles and would love to see him “telling it as it is” in Westminster, but, perhaps he is better suited to being independent for his own sake and that of any party which serves the people. Whatever he does, I wish him well, and if he can’t be an MP, I hope he can support the party he has already chosen. Holyrood awaits too, maybe even an independent Holyrood in the future.
Looks like Helen Liddle and Boris Johnston’s (fallen on hard times) love child has taken a beating in the ring.. (no public school boy smutty jokes please.. chortle, fnarr..)
I do love how a cartoon/imagery can say what a headline would struggle do so succinctly. Sums up what has, and is currently happening in UK Politics just now. We will be independent soon enough.
I find it really odd to read SNP members talk about discipline, saying “yes” to a policy doesn’t really mean you actually support it, and the group objectives are always bigger than the individual.
I say “odd” because that’s the Labour Party.
Chris – Brilliant
Murray McCallum says:
27 December, 2014 at 3:42 pm
Where did you read that? Did you invent it?
Love the cartoon Chris, and Hamish has a steely look in his eyes, in his wee Saltire vest.
On the Craig Murray thing, just been over to the blog and read up. Don’t know what to say as a new SNP member, I’m a bit stunned and disappointed, esp. by the “loyalty” test. I’m trying to reserve judgement, as have only heard his version, but I’m not best pleased. I had hoped the party would be a broad church and trust Craig Murray to know when to be loyal, discreet etc.
@ Murray McCallum, 3:42pm
Murray, how do you know that is the (or only) reason for rejection?
The SNP are very unlikely to answer Craig’s account of the process or give their reasons publicly and that is one of the reasons I am a bit uncomfortable about the one-sided account which could have been worded a bit more diplomatically (pardon the irony). As it is, to me it is a bit disappointing because it seems to be aimed at raising self-righteous ire against the party. None of us were present and we really don’t know how Craig came across overall to those who had to make the decision.
There are some candidate nominees out there who are undoubtedly dedicated to the cause, but, would make neither good MPs nor party MPs.
@Boris
Derek Bateman said ages ago that Isobel Fraser wanted to go back to doing radio work, apparently she does not like presenting/interviewing on TV. I do not see any reason not to trust him on this.
Craig Murray “I was asked at assessment whether, as part of a Westminster deal with another party, I would agree to vote for the bedroom tax if instructed by the Party. I replied “No.” End of SNP political career. Problem is, I really believed we were building a different kind of politics in Scotland. I also knew that a simple lie would get me in, but I couldn’t bring myself to utter it.
& he wasent the only candidate,s to answer NO to the same question & managed to get through the selection, BTW im not a SNP member. I agree with Betty Boob he might be better of being a Independent candidate.
I suspect Craig Murray is seen as too honest by the SNP. By that I mean he is a very independent guy, who has said things that would be twisted in the media if he was selected as a candidate by the SNP. I am not having a go at Craig Murray, it is just that I have read things on his blog that would not look too good printed in unionist supporting newspapers.
The SNP has got to where it has by being very, very disciplined indeed. We all know the reasons why they have had to do this. I think Craig Murray would be more suited to being an Independent, given his style and honesty.
Clootie
I’m just typing what I am seeing and reading on twitter and blogs comment. I’m not a creative person so am not good at “making things up”.
I’m not a member of any political party.
I personally think that, long term, the better political parties / movements always contain an element that will stand up to party group think. I appreciate political careerists don’t like that.
For what it’s worth, in the FPTP GE 2015 elections I would vote for the party supporting Scottish independence that has the best chance of winning in my constituency.
Betty boop
Yes. There may be several reasons for Craig’s rejection.
I just find the theoretical question about supporting the bedroom tax mind blowingly stupid on many levels.
@ Jim Thomson
FRom what I read elsewhere, the head honcho of the City Link delivery service donated over £400,000 to the Tories this year,
@Bugger (the Panda) He’ll not be doing that again in a hurry then.
I’ll have a wander through the Companies House records and see what else he’s up to.
I very much doubt that his response to that one question is the sole reason for not being selected. It’s disappointing that Craig has felt the need to write an extensive blog entry when an ‘I’m disappointed not to have been selected’ would have done. On the strength of this I’d be more than happy to see Craig as an independent MP / MSP but I am getting the distinct feeling that he’d find it difficult to be a ‘team player’.
None of the above of diminishes my admiration & gratitude for his contribution to the YES campaign.
I saw Craig Murray at the Perth and Kinross Independence meeting some weeks ago and his impromptu speech was excellent(it is also on You Tube
@ Valerie, 3:56pm
Here is a problem for any party, that blog neither be described as loyal nor discreet. I hope he finds another way to direct his passion for justice in this country. Independent MP perhaps.
@ Ronnie Anderson, 4:24pm
We are on the same wavelength, Ronnie (ye huvnae got a satellite dish on the shed, huv ye?). Can I ask you a favour though, the name is BooP, Betty BooP – Ah’m gettin’ a complex… 🙂 and feeling like thon thing in the cartoon Futurama wi’ one eye, only different, if you get what I mean…
Just reading Craig Murray’s blog. Quite a few posters saying that they are new SNP members, and are thinking of quitting already! One comment saying that there can be no coalition with Labour at Westminster, no mention of the fact that the SNP would be demanding significant new powers for Holyrood in return. Why join a party and then say you are going to quit after one decision goes against your own view?
Reading Craig Murray’s statement in support of his candidacy, he mentions the dangers of careerism, and he says he will vote against any coalition agreement with Labour. To be honest, I am struggling to see how the SNP could not reject Craig as a candidate, if he is already rejecting outright the possibility of a coalition with Labour.
BtPanda says:
head honcho of the City Link delivery donated over £400,000 to the Tories this year
Well spotted, Panda!
How many jobs could that have saved for another year?
My Craig Murray post not finished due to poor keyboard skills..
His specch was excellent and at that time I visualised him an an independent MSP. I hope he succeeds in that venture, Holyrood will benefit.
Just wandered into this (wrt City Link)
link to companycheck.co.uk
Muttley says: apparently Isobel Fraser does not like presenting/interviewing on TV.
Fine, but that isn’t an explanation for her dislike of the televisual side of interviewing and news reading.
IMO the SNP should cease all talk of coalition. They are helping the MSM frame the debate for the next 5 months. Every interview will talk endlessly about “coalition” if they are not careful.
@Grouse Beater
I think the point Derek Bateman made was she asked to do radio work instead of TV work.
Muttley: if he is already rejecting outright the possibility of a coalition with Labour.
My apologies for picking you up twice in the space of minutes, Muttley, but to my knowledge the SNP do not advocate a ‘coalition’ with Labour. They do not rule out support of certain key issues that benefit England in return for more powers for Scotland. Salmond, at least, proposes policy-by-policy decisions, which is an entirely different matter.
I take your point @ Betty Boop.
I find myself agreeing with everything galamcennalath at 3.09 says, and I joined the SNP recently on the basis of their discipline and structure, so as Muttley points out, no point coming out against that trait when they exercise it.
As a non team player, I try hard to toe a line, hence I have sympathy with a fine, honest man who is brave enough to step out of the herd, and blow the whistle.
I also regret he feels he was treated with hostility. There is a right way to conduct interviews, so that even the disappointed have to grudgingly admit, the process was fair.
However, we only have one side.
Re. Craig Murray. Dissapointing though not surprising, IMO. Perhaps not the ideal team player, though I do hope he can find an appropriate constituancy to stand in as an independent candidate. I wonder if a WOS fundraiser could be use to arm him with the neccessary resources?
Seasonal greatings, btw. I missed adding to all the good will messages, as I’ve been fighting a double-headed lurgie (Maw and Paw both down wth a cold) . Still not back in front of a PC, but wanted to thank all for an incredible expierience. Thanks verry much Rev. Just shout when you need the warchest replenished.
@Grouse Beater, that is my understanding too. Any support to Labour will be on a single topic basis.
Superb Chris.
This is the best yet. 🙂 What a talent .
Muttley: she asked to do radio work instead of TV work.
Yes, but why? What was undesirable about television work, or what was more attractive about radio work?
Valerie: that is my understanding too.
We’d have the ugly mob brandishing pitchforks and torches marching into Embra to set fire to our Parliament if any Scot dared to take control of their Parliament!
And the first wave will be Whitehall mandarins and MPs!
Not sure what your point is Grouse. To me coalition or a confidence and supply arrangement are very similar things. As far as I am aware the SNP are refusing to work with the Tories. I believe the SNP would form a coalition with Labour if there was significant powers devolved to Holyrood, and by that I mean Devo max or something close to that. Craig Murray seems to be very hostile to any arrangement with Labour, which is understandable in the aftermath of the referendum, but it is not pragmatic in any political sense. In my opinion, the SNP want either significant new powers for Holyrood, or failing that to be able to show that the promise of not holding another referendum in the next 15 years is off the table (due to Westminster intransigence). Craig Murray seems to be completely against the first objective, which limits the options available.
Ghandi was a “loose cannon”.
The Rev is a loose cannon, loose cannons are what makes the difference. Following the herd like sheep is what has got us to where we are today.
I support all loose cannons. They are the ones who bring change.
@Alex Clark, I have a lot of sympathy for that view, having been called that a few times!
However, I am also reminded of the Russell Crowe film – Master and Commander, when you got a close up view of how cannon warfare worked on those tall ships – very disciplined!
It is unlikely that the SNP will publicly respond to the Craig Murray issue but I am fairly sure there will have been very good reasons for his rejection as this is never lightly done. The panel is unable to talk about these things.
There have been substantial and very damaging charges made against Craig by the UK establishment in the past and I have no doubt they would have been thrown at him again in a General Election campaign which would have been a serious distraction at the very least.
Craig’s very public reaction to the decision was less than helpful and politically damaging. An expression of regret would have been appropriate. Many people have not gone through on a first vetting but succeeded on appeal at a later date.
It’s not discipline to say you would vote for something you fundamentally do not believe in.
There are many words for that but maybe the Labour Party in Scotland best demonstrate the outcome of relentless political discipline towards winning General Elections.
The SNP could have avoided all this by being frank with Craig and talking through their detailed misgivings about his candidacy directly and personally with him.
Whether you like, respect or loathe him he is a high profile candidate. He is, of course, just one candidate.
muttley79 I hear what you say. It is some time ago she disappeared from television presenting. I am told the reason she asked to be tasked to other duties away from television was because of the lack of support afforded to her by senior BBC management , when at times she would be abused by the likes of Bully boy Davidson and his ilk. The interview is included with the package as evidence. Her confidence was shot.
Much work should be done to improve her self image with the purpose of getting her back on our screens where she belongs.
She is a noble person and is my BBC interviewer of the Referendum.
Alex Clark
100% agreed
@Bob Sinclair, 1648hrs
Perhaps Mr Murray was forced into making his blog post a bit more expansive than a simple “I’m disappointed” because he has been approached by national newspapers who already had the story?
Their source is clearly from within the SNP hierarchy, as they were the ones doing the vetting. So, who knew the situation, and who had a vested interest?
Mr Murray was looking at standing in either Falkirk or Airdrie and had numerous other offers. The Falkirk and Airdrie ones were serious and he would have been a real threat to people within the party who had perhaps already been promised those seats.
On one hand he is being praised by Angus Robertson for his integrity. On the other he is being offered one of the few questions which would test that integrity. For me, I’m glad he said he could not back it.
Now, here’s the rub. Mr Murray has actually made a few comments which the SNP genuinely could have pointed to and said that they were uncomfortable with. They possibly had genuine cause to not put him forward. But instead they engineered a situation whereby he would rule himself out. A ploy so cack handed I cannot imagine what kind of blithering idiot thought it would work. Because they KNOW that his watchwords are openness and integrity. This is a man who has faced off the UK Government. Normally people in his position are found in their car in a leafy lane with a bottle of pills and a note. The idea he wouldn’t stand up a couple of half wits looking to climb the political greasy pole is plainly fantasy, yet some people believed that he would simply slink off and say nothing.
And when they realised that despite failing his appeal he was still interested in standing they fell on their last line of defence. Feed it to the papers.
I hope Mr Murray stands somewhere as an independent independence candidate because we need people like him IN politics. So ask yourself, just why do they want him so desperately out?
@Dave McEwan Hill
Why would any panel, of any description be “unable to talk about these things”?
I don’t accept that, if you are on a panel and make what turns out to be a controversial decision then you must be expected to support that decision in public and explain the thought process that brought you to that decision.
This is an own goal by the SNP. I’m saddened by this and it has nothing whatsoever to do with Craig Murray but more to do with those in the SNP that select candidates based on whether they will lie or not on a point of PRINCIPLE.
I’ve maybe
said too much now. So on this subject will say no more.
thepnr
Exactly right.
I find this insight to “moral” questions being a determinant of what constitutes a “team player” totally ridiculous and repugnant.
The people accepting this reasoning really need to think about the implications of this – doing things for the Party, bigger picture, bigger objective, etc Where does that mentality end?
Talking about Party above conscience.
Were there not SMPs in the SNP who voted against certain policy changes in Holyrood, resigned the Whip but still vote for SNP policies?
Has one not defected to the Green Party?
I do not like the smell of Party before Conscience.
It may have been a bear trap for Craig Murray but if so, maybe I made a mistake in joining them?
Where would the Labour Party be without their dissidents and free thinkers.
Not a happy Panda tonight; seriously not.
Dave McEwan Hill,
‘There have been substantial and very damaging charges made against Craig by the UK establishment in the past…’
All of which were disproved. If there was anything honestly damaging do you really think that they would not have used it?
It is quite definitely an own goal for the SNP. Maybe because somebody felt that the seat ‘ought to be theirs’ as a long service reward.
Possibly even, (given that the SNP are clearly behaving like the other mainstream parties talking about ‘deals’) because they have been offered some deal if they don’t select him. There is not much that Westminster would like less than to see Craig free to talk in the commons with parliamentary privilege.
BtP,
Jean Urquhart resigned over the NATO vote. She is now an independent. There was somebody else at the same time but I can’t remember who offhand.
Only reason the bout was won by JB was because all three ringside judges were unionist sympathisers. Cracker of a cartoon Chris.
I think there was a long standing SNP candidate ready to step in at Airdrie. In Cumbernauld, we have approved a candidate to go up against McClymont. Going from his CV,he has worked his way around SNP positions, and did seem like a shoo in. No one else was nominated.
Muttley: To me coalition or a confidence and supply arrangement are very similar things
No one, as yet, has suggested an official coalition, where Miliband is prime minister and Salmond is deputy prime minister – the role with no real job to do.
The idea that Miliband could somehow control Salmond as Cameron controls Clegg is the stuff of wild comedy shows.
At any rate, with almost 100,000 bolshy new members demanding a new type of government ethos the SNP don’t have that sort of wriggle room.
Boris says: I am told the reason she asked to be tasked to other duties away from television was because of the lack of support afforded to her by senior BBC management
Believe me, the politics of BBC television are brutal. Then again, they’re similarly nasty in most large television corporations.
We are above politics – keep the faith darlings, we don’t need this fascist groove thang.
ffs honeys – stop throwing the toys out of the pram.
Hug a no – Craig Murray (hi honey) is no very good at that.
BtP & cearc, I believe you are thinking of John Finnie. I think he joined the Greens but sits as an independent in the SP. As he is, I think, a list MSP, that was probably his only option.
As for Craig Murray, the SNP got where it is today because of strong party discipline. For a long time, the SNP was a voice in the wilderness. When I was active in the party in the 1980’s, we had good relations locally with the Tory & Labour activists. We weren’t a threat, I suppose, and we thought we could afford to be “loose cannons.” That approach did not deliver electoral success. What did was Alex Salmond’s skillful leadership and gradualist approach. That approach requires great patience over many years.
Craig Murray and I have at least one thing in common. I would not have been a good choice as an SNP candidate either.
Re Craig Murrays rejection,sadly to do well in WM election SNP has to have broad appeal including to NO voters and therefore will require to be conciliatory and not obsessed with bringing down the British State.Craig would be used by msm to turn off potential SNP voting unionists.
The business of governing competently comes before idealist visions for many unfortunately and that is what Project Fear2 would hammer away at with Craig
@ Skip_NC, 9:10pm
Agree with what you say about “loose cannons”. Loose cannons can be very destructive, destroying much in their path, but, rarely hit their target.
Stu was described earlier as a loose cannon. I couldn’t disagree more. Stu researches, considers and aims precisely; nothing loose about that, and is, in any case, a free agent.
Anyone who joins a political party and expects to agree with every single policy is being unrealistic. I have just heard Craig Murray say on Independence Live that he will “probably support” his local SNP candidate, whoever that might be. Probably? Why, exactly did Craig join SNP?
Today, I am more depressed than any time since 19th September. Craig’s public reaction to rejection, which will have been experienced by other nominees, will most likely damage the independence movement, handing as it does, ammunition to unionist parties. So disappointing.
It started so well with that terrific cartoon.
@Betty Boop
I’ll get over this too, just as I had to do when faced with the referendum result. Fighting and disagreeing among ourselves is not at all productive.
I may be wrong, but I’m still sore about all this and someones arse needs kicking. It’s not about Craig Murray for me, it’s the idea of party first.
There has to be room for individuals with all opinions, else we are lost and can only look forward to the dictatorship that will surely follow.
Craig Murray has a beef with Westminster that needs to be settled between the two entities. Use of the SNP as a vehicle for exposure of wrongdoings by politicians and civil servants at the time Craig was in the employ of the State would be wrong.
Craig has gained a high profile with the public through the excellent support he provided the Yes campaign so both parties gained from the relationship. Now it is time for him to pursue his goal alone but knowing he has the backing of the SNP.
Craig reminds me of Martin Bell the, “man in the white suit” journalist who stood against the establishment and corruption in a general election and won the day taking his seat in the Westminster parliament owing nothing to any political party or person. Then having done what he needed to do he stood down and retired with his dignity intact as was his wish.
Well there isn’t much more you can do to make a blaze even fiercer than to pour petrol on it and its seems that there is plenty of it about tonight. I have already seen on twitter the unionists seizing on the Craig Murray hypothetical “bedroom tax” question to punt their own slant that “only labour wants to get rid of the bedroom tax” (unbelievable given their voting record on this and many other things) as the SNP want to endorse it.
I don’t know what the truth of what happened during Craig’s selection interview is as I wasn’t there, but I don’t think it helps anyone to speculate about what might have been said or what one side or the others reasons were for his not being endorsed. The only people who are loving this unfortunate set of events are the unionists who will make as much capital as possible out of it.
I do believe that both the SNP and Craig have Scotland’s best interests at heart it just unfortunate that they appear to have different views on how best to go about achieving what is best for Scotland.
IMHO nothing good will come of pouring more petrol on the blaze.
The unionists have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory..
@Bugger (the Panda) says: 27 December, 2014 at 7:18 am:
” … Who am I to give suggestions to the Master. I think I’m a Panda.”
WHIT!
Ye mean yer NO a real Panda?
Aw! Whit a rotten Wurld!
Ach! Next ye’ll be tellin iz aa there’s nae Santy Claus.
(or should that be, “Sanity Clause”?)
You are right though – Chris is indeed the Master.
@Seoc says:27 December, 2014 at 10:59 am:
” … John Bull is barely fit to stand far less purr!”
The nasty character’s full name is actually, “John Bully”, and like most bullies he cannot stand up to the wee guy if the wee guy decide to fight back. It is rare to find a bully who picks on those of equivalent or bigger size than themselves. They thus tend to be rather much the coward.
Remember John Bull, (who claims, “England stood alone”, against the might of the Germans in two World wars), was in truth backed by Scotland, Wales, The Isle of Man, N. Ireland, both Channel Island Bailiwicks, the whole British Empire and much of free Europe too. Not to mention, (the always late to arrive), USA.
John Bully is just not really so very big and brave when actually required to stand alone. Notice his pleas for help to all and sundry, from the Pope, via the EU Commission and British Commonwealth, to the USA President himself.
@boris says: 27 December, 2014 at 12:36 pm:
“Isabel Fraser is an excellent investigative journalist who in every presentation she provides is entirely unbiased in her approach to interviewing MP’s, MSP’s, Government Ministers and any other persons with whom she is tasked to establish and maintain a discussion.”
I’ll second that, Boris. Isabel is indeed a fine journalist. It is a sad indicator that the BBC’s treatment of such a bright star marks them as a corrupt organisation now long passed it’s use-by date. It also indicates the sad state of Scotland’s media in that no other media outlet has had the vision to sign up such a bright star.
There is no one within BBC Scotland that comes anywhere near that lady’s integrity and honesty. That goes for everyone from both sides of the microphones and cameras. The only thing that BBC Scotland has reported honestly in recent years are the sports results, National Lottery results and the Radio Scotland self made blurb, “No other Station like it”. They sure as hell got that report right. No other station is quite so dishonest, inept and biased. Although several others have tried quite hard to outdo them, none get even close.
More coverage here:
link to scotsman.com
For a party which is meant to have superb internal discipline, the Craig Murray case is, honestly, a spectacular own-goal. Surely another question could have been asked to test Mr Murray’s commitment to the party – which suggests that there were internal party reasons for wanting to sideline him.
Hobbit says:
28 December, 2014 at 1:47 pm
More coverage here
Its not more coverage, its just more very creepy UKOK journalism. How come this bloke never got a mention before, until now he’s been pretty much ignored by our noble and honest meeja. COen on the Hootsman’s a inhouse rag for far right nutters that find the Torygraph too mild.
Must try harder Hobbit. Enjoyed your movie by the way. Do think New Zealand had to endure stuff what you and your ilk fart out day after day before they got their own country back from Westminster? Probably.
Have just checked with some New Zealand friends as to their situ. New Zealand got Dominion status (a devo max, more or less) in 1907; the British Government gave full legal independence in 1931, though New Zealand did not legally take it up until 1947.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Different country, very different relationship with the UK it seems. New Zealand’s Auld Enemy is apparently Australia!
Like it