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Wings Over Scotland


The countdown starts tomorrow

Posted on March 10, 2014 by

We seem to have hit a bit of a lull in the independence debate. Even the papers look to be just a touch bored of recycling the same “Project Fear” scare stories for the 14th or 15th time, and it’s hard to keep track of all the identikit “warnings” from various corporations that don’t actually amount to anything more than “if things change we’ll keep an eye on them”, or in other words the bleeding obvious.

phoneywar

Enjoy the calm while it lasts, though, because in 11 days time the phony war is over.

A week on Friday, Scottish Labour begin their 2014 branch-office conference in Perth. And at that conference the party whose voters are key to the outcome of the referendum finally have to stop stalling and tell the people of Scotland what they’re going to be offering them for a No vote. And in all honesty, readers, we suspect that Scottish Labour itself still doesn’t have a clue what the answer is going to be.

The party is being torn asunder by internal fighting on the issue. Its MSPs, facing another Holyrood drubbing in 2016, want something better to sell than the decade-long “constitutional convention” promised by Douglas Alexander. Its MPs, on the other hand, fear for their jobs if a remotely serious amount of power comes to Edinburgh, because it would almost certainly be accompanied by another reduction in the number of Scottish seats at Westminster.

Some in the party oppose more powers because they think it’ll be independence by the back door. Others oppose it because they think – almost certainly correctly – that it’ll result in the end of the Barnett Formula and a huge cut to the Scottish block grant. Still more oppose greater devolution on fundamental ideological grounds.

We don’t envy Johann Lamont for all sorts of reasons. But we especially don’t envy her task in trying to square this impossible circle. The only conceivable outcome we can see a week and a bit from now is a giant fudge combined with a big old centre-half’s hoof into the long grass. Scottish Labour will come up with a half-arsed compromise of a plan, hobbled by a commitment to talk about it for years first.

(Let’s not forget, the Calman Commission launched in 2008 and most of its proposals will only be delivered – assuming there’s a No vote – in 2015 and 2016. That’s eight years, for what amounted to a piddly wee bit of tweaking devolution around the edges with air guns and speed limits. Imagine how long it would take to construct and enact the legislation needed for major work – we’re talking at least two Westminster governments over and above the current one, assuming Westminster cares at all once the driving threat of independence is gone.)

roadsign2b

Until now Labour have gotten away with insisting that as the Yes campaign are the ones arguing for change, they’re the only ones who have to make a case. But later this month that figleaf is gone. They’ll have to produce their alternative vision – even Alistair Darling has said the status quo is unacceptable – and open it up to scrutiny.

The media, of course, will treat Labour’s plan with the softest kid gloves it can muster. But it simply won’t be possible to conceal how little is on offer, and how fragile the chances of even that being achieved are. (And not just because it’s all dependent on the party winning English votes to get into power at Westminster in the first place.)

If you’re not counting down the days until March 21st, readers, you should be.

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Jimmy The Pict

It will have to be something wee and simple as we are genetically incapable of anything more.

To quote Freddy M.

“I want it all, I want it all, I want it all and I want it now”

or at least on the 19th September with a very bad hangover.

Clootie

It doesn’t matter what they propose as we all know they have not the slightest intent to deliver it.

Does jam keep if it isnae opened?

Steven Roy

They had 13 years in power to deliver more and didn’t. They have no chance of winning the next general election so I don’t care if they are promising me all the gold bullion in the world because they cannot deliver it.

scottish_skier

Who’d you reckon would come out on top should it come to square goes between Lamont and McCann?

Brian Powell

They might just lie and hope for the best, who is going to quizz them after the vote?

The media?

bunter

They will come up with the minimum and get their media pals to spin it into something huge. As JoLa said to Sturgeon on the STV debate, ”no matter what we come up with, it will never be enough”. Quite!

moujick

@clootie…..It stiys as jam fur a while then sterts tae go mouldy and foostie……

caz-m

@scottish_skier

That’s easy, McCann would win. A swift kick in the boz would have Lamont tumbling to the floor.

G H Graham

Stairheid Rammy Expert, Johann Lamont muses,

“Ach, we came up wi some stuff. But wurr no gawny actually gie ye anything, until wuv had a debate. But wee Eck disnae want wan so vote NO.”

P.S.

“I wunder whits fur ma tea the night? Ma falsies huvnae settled doon yet.”

Onwards

That ‘road ahead closed’ image would make a good billboard poster.

Sums it up perfectly.

Why settle for some vague promises of ‘more powers’.. ?

Murray McCallum

I always thought New Scottish Labour was a sub-branch office?

After years of research and meticulous planning, they are to be merged with the Welsh and re-branded New SubNation Labour.

It makes perfect nonsense.

Harry

Re Centre Halfs – Johann Lamont is surely the Ally Brazil of politics. Hold on, not a comment on her looks but more you just can’t believe someone of such limited talent has managed to get as far up the ladder. Ally was once a team mate of George Best’s for goodness sake. Johann is sparring with Alex Salmond for goodness sake!

bookie from hell

devolution is a pernament roundabout

Stephen McKenzie

You do realise that in Calman only control of certain speed limits was devolved? The big important stuff like lorries was kept at Westminster as it was too complicated for Scots to understand. I think however that Ice Cream Vans are ok for us.

David MacGille-Mhuire

“Phoney War”? Seems to have been fairly dirty so far.

Will be interesting to see how the collective trench feet of the Brit establishment seek to go about bayoneting the uppity Jockanese under RSM Davidson’s Mau Mau Black Ops lead whilst the Angloista officer class, drawn from Eton, Harrow et diminishing-in-status al, spin the in-coming attempted democratic atrocity on the citizens of Scotland to the global family of nations.

Not really.

Suspect they are fucked and know it.

Frankly, fuck them back in spades come the fast approaching day (and a continuing fuck upon their current “elites” forever thereafter).

Just a thought.

Big Jock

The settled will of the people is devolution.Do ya think so people?

tartanfever

Great article Rev. Time to start hammering the No campaign with questions of our own – maybe we should fire back to them the 500 questions they promoted last year ?

Derek Bateman gives us his view on ‘constitutional tinkering’

link to derekbateman1.wordpress.com

bunter

The good thing is, that the focus SHOULD move onto what a NO vote means and that might take some of the heat off YES for a change and focus on the flimsy offers of jam tomorrow.

But then, we have the MSM, don’t we!

Davy

I do wonder if labour will actually say anything about further devolution during their conference, it would not surprise me if Lamont trys to fudge the issue and find someway to delay any announcement of their plans until after the referendum.

Perhaps Gordon Brown should help her out with his vast knowledge of saying a lot about nothing, and also on how to maximise your expenses. (his favorite subject)

Nkosi

@ Scottish skier:

JoLa even if she is a man has nae any boz

SquareHaggis

@Clootie

Thanks for remindin me, just checked and I’ve still got a 3 year auld, unopened jar o hame made gooseberry jam (red yins tae) wi a wee dash ginger and it’s affa fine.

This is just grett, ah’m heain, jam the day 🙂

Taranaich

“Phoney War”? Seems to have been fairly dirty so far.

Phoney Wars frequently are, as are Cold Wars, Proxy Wars… really ALL wars are dirty affairs. The difference is right now we can see the dirt: by the time the real war starts, we’ll be so covered in the stuff it’ll be more remarkable to see none.

caz-m

And what ever happened to wee Dougie’s idea of a 10 year conversation. Is that also included in Johann’s Grand Vision being announced next Friday. You have to admit that wee Johann has no shortage of material to pick from.

Douglas Alexander’s speech on Scotland: full text,

The shadow foreign secretary calls for a national convention – “Scotland 2025” – “to chart a new vision for an old nation”.

link to newstatesman.com

Arbroath 1320

I’m confused, no seriously I am! 😉

I thought that at some point in the past, someone called Johann Lamont was ‘promoted’ to leader of all Labour councillors, M.S.P.’s and M.P.’s in Scotland. If this is correct then surely we found out today what lies ahead from Labour in the event of a NO vote. What I mean is how on earth could the Great Gordo the Magnificent be permitted to make such an eloquent speech today without first getting the full and unequivocal support of his boss, the leader of the numptyettes herself, Johann Lamont?

I’m sure I saw her sitting in the background with a face like it had just been skelpt with a wet fish when the Great Gordo gave Labour’s ‘great’ vision of a future it has for Scotland. Surely she would not have been sitting there looking so happy with herself and her skelpt face if she had not already ‘authorised’ the Great Gordo to make his speech, would she? 😉

With Lamont at the helm of Labour in Scotland and the Great Gordo spouting out the great plans Labour in Scotland have for the future of Scotland surely there is nothing left to wait for, is there?

caz-m

And why was Gordon Brown marching up and down the stage today,

Was he burstin for the toilet?

Questions questions.

theycan'tbeserious

The promise of jam tomorrow, but still no closer to being told what flavour?

As has been said before, between them they have had all those decades in power and nothing to show for it except the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

To suggest that they deserve another chance with Scotland’s future is sheer madness!

bookie from hell

national convention 2025

kicking the can around the world

caz-m

“Mind the Gap- London v the rest”

Just starting on BBC 2 9pm.

Wp

O/T Just had a horrendous thought. Imagine the polls had been correct in 2011 and Labour had triumphed at Holyrood. Lamont First Minister and Anas Sarwar her depute. Sorry,I’ll keep thing like that to myself in future.

Ian Brotherhood

Well, at least SLab’s conference can’t possibly be as boring as last year’s. I can still remember some of the photies published right here – all those glum faces.

Should be more interesting this time – even with the cameras around, no way they’re getting through this one without some major barnies and tantrums.

john king

o/t
Just got a survey from yougov with a very serious question
“have you ever been naked on a webcam”

I was looking for a comment box so I could reply
“yes right now ”

It is true I kid you not 🙂

edulis

The Broon laid it on thick today. His new play is to create a ‘partnership of equals in these islands’. Well now, isn’t this the one who refused to speak to the FM after the 2007 election? Isn’t he the one that pulled the rug from under Wendy for going out on her own?

And what will his partnership of equals look like? Will Holyrood have total responsibility for managing all of Scotland’s resources? Will we be allowed to have representation in the EU at fishery talks? Will we be allowed to get rid of Trident so that somebody else can get a shot at housing these WMDs?

As usual more guff from the North Briton.

HandandShrimp

Wp

It would have been Gray in charge if the polls had been right. I can’t even begin to imagine how that would have played out with a Tory Government in Westminster.

john king

“Well, at least SLab’s conference can’t possibly be as boring as last year’s. I can still remember some of the photies published right here – all those glum faces.”

Aye your richt they looking like they were holding the conference in a crematorium last year ;(

Shady Lady

It matters not a jot what any Scottish Unionist party promises in the way of further devolution – it can only come from Westminster. Now, hands up who thinks that might be likely??????

Tamson

If I recall correctly, it was at the last Scottish conference that Lamont was accidentally exposed to a journalist who actually interviewed her competently (David Miller I think? If it was, he’s been moved out of politics to become the Environment Correspondent). Car-crash-tastic, it was.

Tamson

PS sorry about putting ‘Lamont’ and ‘accidentally exposed’ in the same post there. Uncalled for, I know.

CameronB

I’m not sure if I should be sorry for going OT, but Jimmy The Pict put me in mind of this. You’re right Ronnie, I should get out more. 🙂

Is that Gordo and Danny in a duet?

seoc

The present reluctance to listen to the Scottish people in their determination to live under THEIR ideas, is reminiscent of the situation in the former DDR (Eastern Germany).
Their infrastructure was also crumbling – roads, spineless politicians thrilled to a foreign power, none of their syphoned-off money available for their needs, etc. The Stasi intimidated, the press-in-the-pocket dutifully silent. Some of their hills were hollowed out for nuclear weapons they didn’t want.
In the small town of Arnstadt the local population faced down the armed military in a Main Street confrontation.
I visited friends there the summer after the Wall came down.
The people said ‘Those days are over’ and they meant it.
Now, their infrastructure is modern and new, housing, food, health are vibrant.
The people are firmly in charge, using their wealth for their purposes. The time for change had come.

All we need do is vote for it.

Ian Brotherhood

@Tamson –

Could it have been this one with Brian Taylor?

G H Graham

FOSIS Scotland hosted a debate featuring Humza Yousaf MSP, Anas Sarwar MP, Shabana Naz and Yvonne Ridley

9th March 2014

McCance Building University of Strathclyde, Glasgow.

The results …

Pre-debate:
Number of voters – 73
Yes – 52%
No – 41%
Maybe – 5%

Post-debate:
Number of voters – 94
Yes – 68%
No – 28%
Maybe – 4%

ronnie anderson

So Minger Campbell dizna like the Emburgh agreement

he wants a Glesga agreement, They people in Auchenshuggle,

Auchterader,& Auchtermchty i,ll be fair disappointed,C mon

yous peoples let the Minger hear your voices.

diz the Minger come fae AuchterTOOL by any chancity,

bit he is wan big Usless TOOL.

HandandShrimp

I did wonder if today would bring a real challenge to Yes with something attractive, tangible and deliverable on offer. Tonight I rest easy.

What we were given was an odd performance by Gordon doing some sort of chicken impersonation (even Severin was unimpressed by the delivery) and recycling thoughts from his United with Labour launch and Ming giving us a Rowley Birkin impersonation. I half expected Ming to say at the end “but I was very, very, very drunk at the time”

Giving Goose

seoc,

The press and the Westminster government are effectively the same organisation.
Here’s a tongue in cheek take on what I mean.
link to whitefeatherclub.wordpress.com

Andrew Morton

I suggest that we have a campaign to post jam spoons to each and every SLAB MP and MSP together with wee notes saying, “You’ll be needing this”.

gordoz

Labours Conference – Bonfire of the vanities (Oh Yeah !!!)

Has anyone got a vid of First Minister seminar for New Statesmen ??

Croompenstein

Just back in from Yes meeting and still shaking, 2 awl codgers like Still Game, wan of them banging on about poverty and how he grew up wae rationing and nae shoes and telling us to go to Africa to see ‘real’ poverty.

The ither wan called me a fucking liar because I produced the bitter together pound leaflet and said it was all lies, they both then nearly had a stand up fight with a guy who told them he and his wife both work and they struggle with heat or eat. Aye son yer spending your money oan the wrang things! Ootside noo!

FFS nae lull for me in the independence debate, think I need to go and lie doon in a darkened room

Alexandra-M-

I’m extremely interested to hear what they come up with in a week and a bit. I imagine JoLa is equally as interested to hear what they, erm I mean she “comes up with” too.

Linda's back

The best advert for a no vote from Lady Gaga

MacDuff

Is it just me, or does it seem that more than anything else, Johann Lamont really wants ‘a debate’?

How about some policy, some delivery, something tangible, something to make a difference? A debate? What use is that? People are choosing between heating and eating, yet Labour in Scotland still just want Holyrood to be Scotland’s talking shop…

Ian Brotherhood

@Croompenstein –

Blimey.

Where was it?

seoc

@ Giving Goose.

The White Feather club – what an inspirational name for the ‘Scottish’ press.

I was trying to refer to the press of the then DDR. It seems those people had the same problem as we have.

chicmac

O/T since there is a bit of a lull, I thought I would update you on the progress at the Kirriemuir shop, due to, mainly, the generosity of Wingers. We now have a computer running a loop of visual Yes/Indy material on a monitor in the shop window.

It gets turned off late at night when I walk the dog and on again in the morning. Although many of us, I’m sure, leave our computers on at night (if only to enable scheduled maintenance) I’m a bit paranoid about doing so there.

So Kirriemarians (you always wondered what they were called) are enjoying the benefits of seeing a different perspective than they normally get from the box in the corner.

A large part of the material, which is of course necessarily visual, since I don’t think having a speaker assailing passers by 16/7 would go down too well, is courtesy of indyposterboy who does really good stuff in the line of hard hitting poster design. (How about an indyposterboy poster of the week slot Ed?)

This week we are hoping to get a bigger monitor in place for more impact.

We also use it to make locals aware of planned indy oriented meetings which are being organised between now and R-Day (Next one on Green/Indy issues is 26th March, in Northmuir Hall), I think 6 are planned.

This kind of yes shop window visual display idea could, I feel, be rolled out to good effect to Yes shops across the nation.

Anyway, a big thank you to Wingers, although at £920 we aren’t quite there yet.

So if your feeling slightly flush.

link to indiegogo.com

velofello

Hey Croompenstein, just watch whey yer caulin twa auld codgers.

jingly jangly

O/T Press TV, new documentary,

link to youtube.com

Flooplepoop

An intersting little article
link to archive.is

jingly jangly

Looks like the Libs are still quite popular in England, Ming might get his chums to do something after all 🙂

link to archive.is

jingly jangly

Got my email address wrong so my last post was moderated, here it is again

Looks like the Libs are still quite popular in England, Ming might get his chums to do something after all 🙂

link to archive.is

Arbroath 1320

Another day and another crop of good figures from an independence question. The following comes from a tweet I’ve just seen. Still trying to think of the last independence debate I saw had NO ahead, other than the obvious BBC ‘fixed’ debate.

Great turnout for inspiring @EngenderScot conf. y’day – final #indyref vote Yes 61% No 21% U/D 18% #IWDScot #IWD2014 pic.twitter.com/RrxKUntrGI

Training Day

Pia pished again on Scotland Tonight.

It is comforting to know that , even in these turbulent times, some things remain constant.

Arbroath 1320

Scotland can…

Scotland Should…

Scotland Must…

link to youtube.com

Taranaich

@Croompenstein: Just back in from Yes meeting and still shaking, 2 awl codgers like Still Game, wan of them banging on about poverty and how he grew up wae rationing and nae shoes and telling us to go to Africa to see ‘real’ poverty.

They grew up in poverty and on rations because of the cataclysmic world war which saw 67,100 UK civilians dead and several cities bombed to cinders. They starved because the COUTNRY was starving: they were poor because the COUNTRY was poor – what’s the excuse now? Where’s the apocalypse explaining why hundreds of thousands of Britons in poverty? Where’s the massive military campaign which has led to a profound shortage of food, water, energy and supplies? What is the REASON for this?

The ither wan called me a fucking liar because I produced the bitter together pound leaflet and said it was all lies, they both then nearly had a stand up fight with a guy who told them he and his wife both work and they struggle with heat or eat.

They clearly wanted a fight, but that’s not how we settle things, and I’m glad the man didn’t fall for it no matter the provocation.

Aye son yer spending your money oan the wrang things! Ootside noo!

They seem to have confused you with the government – but in any case, how can they possibly know what on earth you spend your money on? “Ootside noo!” – the hell is this, a playground? Prison? Labour Party Conference?

In any case, further proof that Alex Salmond has to get his cybernat army under control: all this abuse has to stop. Because all abuse – even of Yes supporters by No supporters – is Alex Salmond’s fault. Apparently.

chicmac

I meant to add that, for some, as yet unknown, reason, the young folk of Kirriemuir seem to be predominately No in persuasion. Perhaps it is simply a classic case of youth rebelling against perceived expectation (this area of Angus being traditionally SNP).

But for that reason, myself and other wrinklies are planning to keep a low profile re the shop and instead hope that it can become the focus for a youth lead conversion of their peers. That is Eddie’s plan and one to which I subtend although, of course, any assistance in setting that up will be given in a background capacity.

Ian Brotherhood

Rev,

I assume that you won’t be attending the Slab conference, and not many Wingers will be there.

Is it possible you could invite Duncan Hothersall to give us reports? I’m sure we’d all appreciate his take on what’s happening, even if we don’t agree with it. In the spirit of transparency, ‘pushing forward the debate’ etc, he might agree to give us a daily round-up. (Especially as WoS probably has a much higher readership than he’s ever likely to reach otherwise.)

yerkitbreeks

@ seoc It should be said that many in the former East Germany were very apprehensive of the ” Western Machine ” moving in and destroying a way of life.

The message for us is that Inde should allow some redress from the neoliberal machine that exists, not in Bonn, but London.

jingly jangly

Ive found the positive case for the Union….

Arbroath 1320

I know this is O/T but it appears that the Labour leader of Aberdeen council is in a wee bit of bother…AGAIN! 😉

link to tinyurl.com

Arbroath 1320

Oops, for those wondering about the state of Simon Pia can double check him out now, he’s on newsnicht! 🙂

jingly jangly

Seems I got several videos, its the third one, Alec Salmond is Fat…

Garry Henderson

@Chicmac

I have an old TV I’m not using, it’s 22″ and I’ll be back in Kirrie 22nd March (currently working in Brazil) I have been conversing with Eddie Anderson.

I also have a filter coffee machine that I don’t use very often – every little helps eh?

Training Day

This meeting that may be called within 30 days after a No vote to discuss something or other may swing it for BT. I’m already hearing reports of groups spontaneously coalescing to hold all night vigils between now and September 18 to sanctify the prospect of the meeting.

Morag

O/T, look what someone just tweeted to me.

link to twitter.com

Time to warm up for a quick chorus of “I told you so”, perchance?

Linda's back

Liked this tweet on Gordon Brown’s plans

ruth wishart @ruth_wishart
Follow
Sorry Gordon? OK to raise and spend 40 per cent of our taxes, but not the rest. Didn’t care for the last 40 per cent manoeuvre much either.

That’s the one Johann Lamont supported in 1979

jingly jangly

Morag

Looks like there ramping up the rhetoric on Iran again, as we all know they have known for 25 years that Lockerbie was retaliation for the Iranian Airbus. A way of getting at Mr Putin?

link to archive.is

caz-m

STV, Bernard Ponsonby,

“This is Gordon Brown’s meatiest document yet”.

WTF is that guy on?

And Simon Pia,

“That’s why West of Scotland Labour voters love Gordon Brown”

And WTF was that guy on?

STV seem to be a bit behind the curve, add this programme tonight to the one last week about the 25% gap between Yes and No camps.

You really need to try harder STV.

Morag

Here’s the whole thing. We filmed this in October, but there have been problems about showing it – for one thing, the director died just before Christmas.

link to telegraph.co.uk

I’ve been banging on about Heathrow in my book and nobody’s been paying a blind bit of notice, but suddenly, oh look it’s Heathrow because Al Jazeera said so.

Oh well.

Arbroath 1320

I’m thinking that we really do have the Tories on the run these days. Apparently Angus B MacNeill was asked by a Tory vice Chairman what the national debt of Norway is? 🙂

Arbroath 1320

Sorry for going O/T, but it appears that the Telegraph has a front page splash about Lockerbie.

link to tinyurl.com

If this turns out to be true, and why shouldn’t it, then it looks like we are back to square one, at least for a lot of us who have followed the up’s and down’s of the whole Lockerbie fiasco. I say this because, I have never believed in the alleged guilt of Al Megrahi but was always more concerned about the whole bombing being a result of the initial U.S. shooting down of the Iran Air flight 655.

Al Jazerra also has a piece about this development.

link to tinyurl.com

Morag

Read the thread, Arb!

I haven’t seen the film yet, although I’m in one of the trailers. It’s being shown tomorrow lunch-time at Holyrood so I’m going to see what they’ve put together. It’s on Al Jazeera at 8 pm I think.

Mary Bruce

Morag, I eventually got a hard copy of your book with my Xmas vouchers. I’m only about a fifth of the way through but your Heathrow theory already has me convinced. Hopefully this latest publicity might shift a few more copies.

You should post the link to it again, I was about to but then I remembered that some sites take a much bigger commission than others.

Morag

Jings, Arb, it was the last post before you started posting!

My position is that I know the bomb went on at Heathrow, as I explained in my two earlier articles for Wings, but I don’t know if the Al Jazeera theory about who put it there is sound or not because I haven’t yet seen the whole film.

ronnie anderson

@ Morag, I have had a feeling all these things will add

& to a case being made as to why we,re better together,

Ukraine now Iran, somthing else will crop up soon then

they,ll come out with a story.

Arbroath 1320

Sorry folks got another O/T here.

I wonder how this will go down in certain sections of Glasgow.

link to tinyurl.com

Am I reading too much into this I wonder or could this finally be the first ‘big name’ to come out for independence who may actually carry some level of ‘clout’ with the locals. I wonder how Ibrox will react to this news, interesting times ahead methinks. 😉

Morag

Thanks Mary. The publisher’s ordering page is here.

link to troubador.co.uk

Al Jazeera have me in the film but they don’t seem to want to acknowledge me at all. Sigh.

Arbroath 1320

Sorry Morag, I hadn’t updated my page before posting. soree. 🙁

John Gibson

The ever-smarmy Simon Pia on Newsnight (yet another three-on-one debate), patronisingly suggesting in a round about way that we’re just too stupid to manage the full devolution of Income Tax.

Why do I always get the impression he’s spent the previous hour or two in a bar somewhere?

Arbroath 1320

I can’t believe I have heard this, but BBC News reporting that Colorado have just raised $2 Million in taxes from their first month’s $14 Million sales of legalised Cannabis.

Davie Park

O/T but well worth a keek. Former Scottish Labour staffer Kirsty Connell challenges the ‘self evident truths of seperation’.

link to betternation.org

Early Ball

@arbroath1320

Is that for real? Not great I expect after the Albion Rovers result.

Morag

Seems to be real from what I can see, but then I’m quite gullible!

Mary Bruce

Arbroath, that would be great news about Mr McCoist. I’ve had a quick scoot around google and can’t find anything else to back it up, so we will wait and see.

If it is true then I can imagine that some supporters will be livid and he may face the same abuse that Andy Murray has been keen to avoid.

X_Sticks

@Morag

“I’ve been banging on about Heathrow in my book and nobody’s been paying a blind bit of notice”

You’ve not been alone – I have been at this one for a long time too…

link to bbc.co.uk

I nearly wrote a book 🙂

Arbroath 1320

To be honest EB I do not know any more than what can be gleaned from the twitter page itself, but like Morag, I am one who is prepared to believe it is true. To be honest I’d be surprised if this was a spoof, but hell what do I know. 🙂

Paul Martin

Doesn’t matter what devo-crock o’shite SLAB come out with in 2 weeks. Fact is that it will be acclaimed widely and variously by the Scottish media, and Farquharson and his rag-bag of self-regarding mutual back-slapping cronies will put wheels on it all the way through until September.

caz-m

Arbroath

This McCoist rumour has been about for about a year now.
If true, it would start to convince a lot of blue noses that there is nothing to be afraid of.

Ally has always been a great Scotland fan, of any sport, so it should not be a great surprise.

I stopped going to Ibrox when I couldn’t take any more of the Orange Lodge mentality that ran right thru the place.

And I won’t be going back until these dinosaurs have left the place.

I want a Scotland that is free from this Rangers hates Celtic, Catholics hate protestants mentality.

It has to end if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world.

007 and a half

Forgive me Rev Stuart, for I have sinned…
I brazenly attended Gordon Brown’s launch today, and found myself joining in the standing ovation. This was after spending a great deal of time sitting on my hands so that I didn’t throw them up and declare how much misinformation there was.

But I did learn the following surprising facts.

We need to share/pool resources.
The only people wanting independence are SNP.
We don’t want to say goodbye to the Union we want to say goodbye to poverty.
In the Union we can all work together, but as independent we wouldn’t be able to agree on anything.
The 6 point improvement plan is the answer to all our prayers.
The oil is running out.

Oh, and Johann Lamont found some things “astonishing”

Marcia

A message from Elaine C Smith

Arbroath 1320

I have to admit that this is the first that I’ve heard about this caz. I agree with you in that I think if this is eventually proven to be true then there will a lot of Rangers fans who are undecideds at the moment will see this as a nod of approval to move over to YES.

I admit that there does seem to be an element of outright mentality brought about by a certain element within the Orange Lodge but I also know that there is an Orange Order for YES so not all are bad.

With regard to your last point I agree 100%. I can not abide the sectarianism that appears at every Rangers/Celtic match which is predominantly anti Catholic, anti Protestant, anti Celtic, anti Rangers. I think it is, in the 21st century, totally unacceptable.

Arbroath 1320

Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

“I brazenly attended Gordon Brown’s launch today, and found myself joining in the standing ovation.”

GET OUT.

Awe, be fair Stu, 007 and a half just got caught up in the moment. 🙂

I’m sure he’ll promise to make sure it NEVER happens again, won’t you 007 and half?;)

Morag

X_Sticks, that’s interesting. The snag is, Jim Swire can’t see past the break-in, which could actually have nothing at all to do with the bombing. (Not saying it didn’t, but we may never know.)

It’s the forensic examination of the damaged luggage that proves the bomb went on at Heathrow. It always did, it’s just that nobody noticed.

Morag

Doesn’t matter what devo-crock o’shite SLAB come out with in 2 weeks. Fact is that it will be acclaimed widely and variously by the Scottish media, and Farquharson and his rag-bag of self-regarding mutual back-slapping cronies will put wheels on it all the way through until September.

This, sadly. The BBC and the newspapers will acclaim it as the answer to all our prayers, and breathe not a word of criticism or even scrutiny. It will be hyped up so that by the end of the article everyone reading or watching will be convinced that a cross in the No box means guaranteed devo-max.

I think I need a lie down in the darkened room.

007 and a half

I put on my best spying expression,and tried to blend in with my surroundings. I was actually “astonished” to discover that this was today’s big meeting. I was suddenly on my very best behaviour.

But I did manage to utilise iPhone’s Voice memo facility 🙂

ian foulds

as it is unlikely the Establishment will be resting (more like digging up ‘dastardly deeds’), I presume the good guys (and gals) will be preparing our next line of persuasion to the don’t knows and those on the cusp of moving to the positive side.

Jim Kennedy Cairo

A suggestion. To the volunteers who man the yes shops and stalls. After the referendum, what about keeping the going as a way of keeping councils and governments of the future on their toes. It seems there is a very good community spirit being generated. Just a thought.

john king

Handandshrimp says
Ming giving us a Rowley Birkin impersonation. I half expected Ming to say at the end “but I was very, very, very drunk at the time”

Rowley Birkin
what him?

john king

” Lamont First Minister and Anas Sarwar her depute. Sorry,I’ll keep thing like that to myself in future.”

Thats a plan

btw hello WP never seen on wings until the other day,
WELCOME 🙂

Nick Heller

There’s no need to worry. Gordon Brown has a plan.

link to thescottishscaremonger.blogspot.co.uk

john king

linda’s back
in the Lady Alba video @ 3mins
would I be right in thinking that the ahem gentleman behind the Alex Salmond mask was none other than Alan Cochrane and the ruffian behind the Nigel Forage? mask was in fact our very own Taranaich?

John H.

Sorry that you had such a bad time of it at your meeting Croompenstein. These things are to be expected occasionally though. We were canvassing in an area of Bishopbriggs known to be tory on Sunday. The only abuse we got was from very elderly people.

From their point of view the world’s gone mad. All the old certainties have gone, and they just don’t want to hear anything about independence.

On the bright side, we found some Yes’s, and quite a few
DK’s. So it was better than we had expected.

Croompenstein

O/T just remembered another pearler from the meeting last night..@Taranaich deep breaths…..I said that one of my main reasons for voting yes is to rid ourselves of WMD to which one of the old guys said oh you don’t understand son these weapons have kept the peace for 70 years..WTF! I thought the older you get the more wiser you’re supposed to get!

Calgacus MacAndrews

Another day, another end-of-empire referendum:-

link to bbc.co.uk

New Zealand looks to change their flag.

Alan Mackintosh

Croompenstein, Aye they kept the peace. Since the second world war. Unfortunately thats not the truth. Something to store away is that the only year in which we were not involved in a conflict was 1968, (that is until the NI troubles ceased, cant quite remember which exact year that was).The point being we had many savage wars during the “peace”,

Brotyboy

@chicmac

I have a buckshee 24″ widescreen monitor you’re welcome to if it’s any use to you in Kirrie.

kirriereoch

O/T but I guess far enough into the thread now.

I watched the BBC´s “Mind the Gap” film last night about London´s relationship to the rest of the UK and what particularly caught my ear was the fact that there has been a mass exodus of firms and thousands of jobs from the North of England and the Midlands to the South East and London.

Maybe this is one aspect of all the recent ramblings regarding companies claiming they´ll move out of Scotland. Perhaps, as in the North of England, it´s a process that´s already underway and, as stated in the film, only likely to increase.

So voting yes and having control of all the mechanisms for development should surely prevent at least some of this accelerating movement of jobs to London and the South East. I.e. voting yes helps prevent the job drain that is already happening.

As you were.

Luigi

Chicmac,

Good on you for setting up a YES shop in Kirrie (the Lion’s den!). I will try and get down sometime in the summer and make a wee donation (for a coffee)!

RE: Young No supporters – I’m not surprised. Yes, SNP is strong in Angus, but “Blue Kirrie” was always a thorn in the side of Andrew Welsh – I recall that during one election in the 1980’s the SNP were just ahead, all over Angus, but such was the strength of the Tory vote in Kirriemuir that Peter Fraser got in.

Do you walk your dog in Kirrie Den? I had a lot of great times there as a youngster. I hope it is still as nice as I remember (not been there for 30 odd years).

Eric

link to order-order.com

You couldn’t make this up. Checkout the spreadsheets.

Linda's Back

BBC bias is being discussed at Scottish Parliament this morning

Live Video: Committee Room 2: http://www.scottishparliament.tv starts today at 10am on BBC output.

Albalha

@Linda’s Back

And the Herald story

link to heraldscotland.com

Albalha

Think these were drawn up on the back of cigarette packets.

With the Tories still at the colouring in stage.

link to heraldscotland.com

Roberto

The Barnett formula should be asked about at every opportunity.This is the NO campaigns weak point.They have to explain what happens in the future.

Jim McIntosh

O/T -just listened to an extract from a play to be on radio 4 on Friday. “Splitting the Union”.

Extract started with David Cameron on a train travelling to Edinburgh, he is portrayed as solemn and thoughtful and seemingly a bit depressed about having to have negotiations with AS. Switch to Alec Salmond and his advisor.

AS -“what’s that?”
Advisor- “it’s a gift for the PM, it’s a commemorative plate”.
AS (quiet laugh) – “something to eat his words off then”.
Advisor – “it was fired 150 years ago to commemorate 150 years of the union”.
AS – “isn’t that rubbing it in a bit”.

They don’t give up with the negativity do they.

bunter

The Herald finally breaks cover on the UWS story that they have been aware of for weeks, but sat on. Cant be ignored now, but expect the Bitters to go on the attack along the lines of ” Deeply undemocratic Nat controlled Holyrood, smears our beloved national institution”.

The knives will be out after this.

HoraceSaysYes

The simple thing that you have to ask yourself about all these ‘jam tomorrow’ plans – if they actually were going to give Scotland a substantially better deal than we have now, why on earth would MPs in England, Wales and Northern Ireland support them? Just out of the kindness of their hearts?

ericmac

@Andrew Morton

I suggest that we have a campaign to post jam spoons to each and every SLAB MP and MSP together with wee notes saying, “You’ll be needing this”

This is an excellent idea… as long as it is accompanied by suitable Press Release. The story needs to go to the media, for people to take note of the relevance.

These are the kind of ideas that gets things highlighted.

‘JAM TOMORROW’ is the political equivalent of “Let them eat cake” … It should not be wasted.

onzebill

Chicmac Donation to Kirriemuir made, strength to your elbow

ericmac

link to theguardian.com

Lead the way New Zealand.

The shame of Scotland if we vote NO.

fairiefromtheearth

I would just like to point out that you can be a Scottish Nationalist and not support the SNP,good news if its true about Coisty 😉

bunter

Oh and I hope Holyrood address the closure of comments on toodloothenoo blogs, and the biased business editor’s too!

fairiefromtheearth

Whats the point in having JAM tommorow if i havent any bread today?

Dave McEwan Hill

I never had much doubt that Iran was behind Lockerbie. That was very widely held initially.
The big question has always been why was Libya very deliberately fitted up by the US and the UK (and what else was the US up to on that disaster that they are desperate that we never find out).
I know what I think. I know Morag doesn’t agree.

Clootie

We already have a flag with no butchers apron.

I lost count last night how many times I heard “trust us”, “we have made a pledge” etc.

The YES can be asked for firm answers but the BT can merely state that their word is good enough. However don’t go digging up all those old clips in which we said one thing and did another – that was different. This time we really, really mean it.

As for McCrone…”I was at school then”/”not in politics” /”I’ve never read it” / “That was the Tories” / “That was :abour” / “Who!”

X_Sticks

@Morag

I’ve never believed Megrahi was responsible for the bombing. Like you Morag I think the bomb was placed on board the 103 at Heathrow, and the evidence that has come out since then would back that up.

As Dave MCewan Hill says the question is why Libya? What gain was there in making Libya the fall-guy?

The other HUGE question is what happenned at Camp Zeist? Was the judge complicit in the fit up, or did the intelligence people pull the wool over his eyes?

I sincerely hope that Jim Swire and the other families will eventually get to the truth of this affair. Better an uncomfortable truth than the lies and cover ups that have taken place to date.

ronnie anderson

@Croomperstein, A tammy doff tae ye fur going boldly into

those places that insult your intelegence, so that we dont

have to,an am no like Velofello,s objecting being cawed a

a auld codger, am a auld Oddfellow, Mmmm pickin mix £1qt.

smiles.

@ 007 /half same tae you tae.

Morag

I never had much doubt that Iran was behind Lockerbie. That was very widely held initially.
The big question has always been why was Libya very deliberately fitted up by the US and the UK (and what else was the US up to on that disaster that they are desperate that we never find out).
I know what I think. I know Morag doesn’t agree.

I’m not quite sure what you think I don’t agree with. The only disagreement I recall having with you was the factual one about whether the plane was late or not.

I’m essentially certain that Iran paid the PFLP-GC to carry out the atrocity, that the bomb was one of Marwan Khreesat’s, and that it was introduced at Heathrow. I am 100% certain it was introduced at Heathrow actually, and I have the photos to prove it.

I also know that the police and forensic investigation went off the rails in January 1989, before all the allegations of deliberate interference and misdirection by the US authorities start. I have an open mind on whether this was pure incompetence at this stage, or whether it was directed.

I don’t deny the possibility that there was a hell of a lot more going on there that we are not aware of. I just make the distinction between what we can be sure about, and what is merely suspicion or speculation.

chalks

Libya?

Oil.

It never changes, he who controls the oil controls the world.

chalks
Ukp42

O/T If WWI was a bar brawl..
link to imgur.com

Luigi

The other HUGE question is what happenned at Camp Zeist? Was the judge complicit in the fit up, or did the intelligence people pull the wool over his eyes?

Either way, Scottish justice does not come out of this looking very good at all. Perhaps this explains the SG’s apparent reluctance to hold a full inquiry.

Morag

I agree with Luigi. Either way, it’s not good. The “Opinion of the Court” is a daisy-chain of circular reasoning which should serve as an Awful Warning in the annals of logical fallacies.

People inside the Edinburgh legal establishment have given more or less informed opinions about what they think was going on, and Robert Black has some discussion of it on his blog. It’s worth noting though that there are rumours that at least one of the defence team believed Megrahi was as guilty as sin. That in itself is heap bad medicine of course, under the circumstances.

I simply cannot understand how so many people could miss the message of the suitcase jigsaw, but the fact is it wasn’t just the police, the forensics officers and the prosecution, it was the defence as well. I’m assured it’s one of these things that’s only obvious once it’s been pointed out to you.

The political fall-out from acknowledging that Megrahi was never anywhere near the Lockerbie bombing and the investigation was off the rails from about day 10 will be phenomenal. I don’t see how they can go on denying it forever though.

dramfineday

I throughly enjoyed your book Morag, a very detailed account which made sense of it to me.

kind regards Dram

Morag

Thank you Dram. James Robertson said it was a book for Lockerbie anoraks, but quite a few people coming to it relatively cold seem to have followed it, which is good.

As far as I could see the Al Jazeera film included nothing of significance that I didn’t already know. It was old stuff taken for a run, with some new accessories. None the worse for that and it gets the issue in the public eye again, but not revelatory to someone already familiar with the case.

Something I had been led to believe would be there, wasn’t, which is a little odd. As it was, the only real revelation would really have been my assertion that the forensic evidence proves the Bedford case was the bomb. However, this wasn’t really played up because it wasn’t their main narrative.

Jim Swire said afterwards that he and a number of other relatives would soon be submitting a new application for a third appeal to the SCCRC. That had the journalists round him like flies, but I’m not seeing anything on the news about it now.

Morag

Not disagreeing in principle. Just – one step at a time.

Morag

To expand a bit, it’s one thing to suspect massive skullduggery, and assertions are easy, but concrete proof is something else.

I can brainstorm on this till the cows come home and a lot of it would curl your hair, but what I’m prepared to stand by in public is another matter. One step at a time.

Morag

Strange. I thought my post at 12.12 am (two above) was directly below a post from Dave McEwan Hill in which he pointed out that “credible people” (mainly Tam Dalyell as far as I can see) believe that the US government and/or the CIA deliberately allowed Iran to take down Pan Am 103.

That post has gone. Did Dave forget his paragraph breaks or something?


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