Club membership increases
Posted on
October 11, 2014 by
Chris Cairns
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Ah, yes our own Mr Mundell.
Not the sharpest of sandwiches in the lift.
…..and of course by both calculations, proportionately and the other one, have more pandas than England has UKIPers.
Oh the irony!
From the stats, there seems to be c 18% Tory vote in Scotland. But FPTP doesn’t allow them more seats. Obviously, they stick so rigidly to it as it serves them well in Westminster. Democracy suffers all round.
Mundell, the male unionist version of Johann Lamont, both mentally and physically.
I’d actually vote for Farage over Mundell any day –
at least till I recover from IndyRef.
Looking ahead to an Independent Scotland
what would be the point of any unionist parties?
I’d declare them unconstitutional and that would be the
end of them. If, of course, there’s any left by then.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
‘In an Ugly Mood’ – mandatory short reading.
Posting is now wearing.
Is there a definitive solution, anyone ?
The British Nationalist Broadcasting Corporation says that an army of Journalists are following the Farage Balloon about the country. They are hanging on his every word.
@manandboy –
Craig Murray mentions in his blog that he will be speaking at the George Square rally on Sunday.
The New Flat Rate Pension Benefits Scheme Starts In April 2016
The new flat rate state pension is a marked reduction over that which has been in place for many years. It is arrived at by combining the existing basic state pension and the State earnings related pension, (SERPS).
link to caltonjock.com
Donald Russell Brand put it a bit stronger in his latest trews video lol.
What a bunch tho, how anyone with any morality could vote for any unionist party, especially those racists is beyond me.
Thanks for another great cartoon Chris
Chris, anybody
When I come into Wings via the starting starting this blog is not shown in the “Recent Posts” roll?
It is there if I come in form my e-mail alert.
Maybe that could explain the low rate of posting on this thread?
Good one Chris, the hypocrisy and duplicity of the unionists captured perfectly in your toon 😀
@Bugger – I get the same thing. In fact it often happens that I see things on Wings via the links in the Rev’s tweets long before they show up by going directly to this site.
Just one more mystery of the interweb.
It’s all very well vilifying UKIP as racist xenophobes but I’d lay off too much venom-spitting because right now they’re clearly tapping into something that many people feel at grass roots level – something they can’t express openly for fear of being tarred with the same brush, so they keep quiet and use their vote.
They’re not all little Englanders, they’re not all middle class home counties types, they’re not all in high flying executive jobs, and they’re by no means Daily Mail readers. They’re ordinary everyday friends, neighbours, workmates, with whom you’d happily share a cuppa or a pint.
They don’t care so much about colour, creed or culture, what they care about is NUMBER, and they care about it at local level, in their council’s housing allocation, at the doctor’s, in the school, at the jobcentre.
They look at the infrastructure of their own neighbourhood and see it creaking and they’re saying “We can’t cope” and no-one is listening. They’re shouted down by those at the top of Moral Hill, many of whom couldn’t find those neighbourhoods on a map, never mind deign to live there.
For those people, it’s not about race, it’s about resources. It wouldn’t matter if people came in from Gaza or Glasgow. And all they hear is “Shut up and suck it up”. So they do shut up. And then they vote UKIP.
And they probably voted No in the referendum, for much the same reason.
Whatever arguments the Yes campaign put forward – if indeed they did on this issue – didn’t work. Simply saying that everything will be better with independence didn’t cut it for them. Why should they believe ‘the other side’ any more than the 45% beieved in Better Together?
So how do you counter that? What arguments can you present that would persuade these ordinary, everyday, worried people that by voting for another party in GE15 their concerns would be addressed?
And, importantly, how do you fit it on a leaflet?
Club membership?
Given that 45% voted the way they did, shouldn’t we expect to see them represented in the usual MSM outlets?
Perhaps we should, but we don’t – that in itself must be pretty bleedin’ obvious to No-voting fearties.
Turn on Radio Scotland – usual voices, usual times…
Go on, have a guess, without checking – who’s bumping his gums on Shereen Nanjiani’s show right now? Have a wild stab at it…
@Chris
Is that a limp wrist or is that a limp wrist? Very evocative of all the portraits in big hooses of people who were important because of who their parents were. Nowadays he’s important because he’s a Tory, pathetic wee man.
So Farage got a seat in a bye election; The SNP got one in 1945, and the next one in 1967. We’ll wait and see, but “having the BBC cheering you on is a great help” as a recently important political leader might have said
On C4 news after the Clacton result the reporter said ‘we are now in the era of 4 party politics’. What about the GE success of the Greens in Brighton? was that not actually the birth of 4 party politics (in Englandshire as obviously the Celtic fringe parties don’t count).
Sorry for going O/T so early in this thread, but I just got back from holiday during which time I was electronically incummunicado. In relation to Police Scotland’s investigation into Ruth Davidson and John McTernan’s “tallies” on postal votes, should they not widen the scope of their investigation into the bookmakers, who paid out large sums of money to the NO punters PRIOR to the actual referendum event?
O/T
There’s a silent protest & foodbank collection planned outside the Scottish Labour gala dinner on 30th October in Glasgow. Details here link to indyscot.info
Scotland – the land of politicians without mandate or clothes.
I loved the fact Chris Cairns had to put a name tag on Mr Mundell, just so we knew who he was.
Just demonstrates the impact this single Tory has in Scotland, not even a household name in his own household.
Shuggy has made some good points. People struggling with housing in Aberdeen often mentioned immigration when we were doorknocking on the estates. They couldn’t get decent housing so blamed the immigrants, simply because that is what they see. This did generate some good conversations and people did listen – however while the MSM has a grip on things we are up against it. It wasn’t so much they didn’t like migrants – it was more to do with the fact they felt there weren’t enough resources to go around. We know what UKIP are about but a lot of people don’t know just how awful they are.
O/T
The Tartan Army are not happy with the SFA and the price of tickets for future Scotland games. Seemingly still tickets available for the game tonight. The Tartan Army have even got a petition running to get prices reduced.
link to tinyurl.com
Don’t know how to take the Tartan Army, I thought they could have been a lot more vocal during the Campaign.
And if we are a split Nation in voting terms, does that mean that half the Tartan Army voted No?
If that is the case, then surely the NO voters at the game have no right to sing “Flower of Scotland” (when will we see you’re likes again).
I would like to see Hampden split into two section from now on. The NO voting supporters at one end and the YES voting supporter at the other.
Surely the NO voting supporter wouldn’t have a problem with that, they should be filled with pride that we are still part of this great British Union.
Or do you think that they would be too embarrassed and ashamed to admit to anyone that they actually voted NO.
BASTARDSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! (Sorry, Basil Faulty moment there)
Shuggy: They’re ordinary everyday friends, neighbours, workmates, with whom you’d happily share a cuppa or a pint.
True, but their heads are filled with mince because that’s what they are fed, day in, day out. They believe anything.
English in general have always been suspicious of foreigners, and detest intellectuals – hence they love a pint swilling bonehead like Farage. He talks their language.
On C4 news after the Clacton result the reporter said ‘we are now in the era of 4 party politics’.
Nah, the Lib Dems are about to disappear.
Shuggy: Whatever arguments the Yes campaign put forward – if indeed they did on this issue – didn’t work.
I’m sorry, but it did.
(there is confusion in your syntax – I presume you have switched from discussing English Ukip voter to Scotland’s residents voting in the Referendum.)
55% voted for greater powers short of full independence. How do we know? A study showed 78% felt that way.
Shouldn’t it be the poisoned stream media ?
or “clogged drain” ….I’m sure someone can do better.
As Ukip are seen as no danger to the “British Establishment” who secretly admire, them of course they will be allowed full reign to speak without interruption, to have their views in every newspaper. Mr Farage, you know that Briton with the foreign name and I believe foreign wife will have none of our problems. I believe the BBC are giving them the coverage in the hopes that they can split the Tory vote so Labour can win by default. Well I expect that will be a very dangerous act by Auntie,can you see the Tories losing to Labour whilst Ukip are sitting holding their coats. Just as many stupid if not more xenophobic people in British Labour as in the Tory Party.
A lot of people mention the supposed up side of UKIP in Scotland … They take away both Labour and Tory votes which in first past the post WM2015 might help the SNP. Could be true, but I would prefer if they just stayed South of the border.
Another view of UKIP is they drive more Scots away from Westminster politics, maybe, but they are also driving WM to the right, with a vengeance! And perhaps during WM & the UK away from the EU.
No good will come from them!
However, as has been already mentioned they are being chosen by people in England who are just as pissed of with the current WM system as we are!
I remember an old guy when I was wee who had been a German POW but had not returned home to Dresden after the war. He kept himself to himself but when you are a wee boy you can get away with asking questions. I remember talking to him about his youth and how he was a proud member of the Hitler Youth and how he loved that time is his life. When I asked him why he believed in it all he said was because they told me to believe. The similarity with the British MSM telling us what to believe is scary.
@Grouse Beater –
English in general have always been suspicious of foreigners, and detest intellectuals – hence they love a pint swilling bonehead like Farage. He talks their language.
🙂 Superb 🙂
@shuggy
Yes, you are quite right in your analysis that it is not race but numbers that matter to Scottish voters worried about immigration. The argument that Scotland actually needed immigrants because of aging population/emigration etc did not have much impact, because it was too abstract. On the doorsteps, people (more than a few intending to vote UKIP) were concerned about housing and jobs ‘They’ get up the housing list; ‘They’ take our jobs because they work for low wages. That’s the perception, and, for all I know, there may be some truth in it. The anti-EU conern was more easily countered – because it always had its source in the DM/Express.
We certainly need some hard info to put out before 2015. A list of areas where Scotland benefits from the EU would be one. Maybe some clear info on how Councils deal with housing lists might be another
Ah dont like it Chris you’ve made him look Normal,if thats possible.
@Shuggy 10.49am
If you haven’t clicked on the link to Craig Murray’s article from Manandboy at 8.56am, then I recommend you do so. Craig puts his finger on it when he says that UKIP are the means by which the establishment divert people’s attention away from their true exploiters and towards specific groups in society (ie ethnic minorities and immigrants). It is always easier to blame those who look different from you, because you don’t have to think deeply about what is actually going on.
We don’t counter it through leaflets – we counter it through personal one to one conversations over a period of time. Get them to question just one assumption by showing them factual evidence to disprove that assumption, and you open up a chink in the armour of ignorance and blind acceptance of the status quo. Then you can get them to start questioning other things.
That is how you raise people’s political awareness; it’s a step by step personal process and it takes time, which is why we have to start now.
Craig Murray says:
“UKIP is an antibody produced by the political
establishment and their paymasters,
to counter public disillusion with a dreadful and worsening unequal society.
UKIP’s task is to divert public anger away from their exploiters towards specific groups of the poor.
It does so very effectively.
UKIP’s success yesterday will lead to a race among the mainstream parties to scapegoat vulnerable social groups – immigrants, benefit claimants, unemployed –
and to compete in external xenophobia.
The next government of the United Kingdom
will be right wing to a degree which would have seemed unthinkable for the majority of my life.”
snap!
@handclapping
Is that a limp wrist or is that a limp wrist?
Not sure what you meant by that, handclapping. I’d like to think you weren’t being homophobic, but it could be construed as such. Not getting at you, but maybe you’d like to clarify?
Natasha
Foppish?
mmmmmmm
Naw.
caz-m says:
Don’t know how to take the Tartan Army, I thought they could have been a lot more vocal during the Campaign.
And if we are a split Nation in voting terms, does that mean that half the Tartan Army voted No?
If that is the case, then surely the NO voters at the game have no right to sing “Flower of Scotland” (when will we see you’re likes again).
I would like to see Hampden split into two section from now on. The NO voting supporters at one end and the YES voting supporter at the other.
Surely the NO voting supporter wouldn’t have a problem with that, they should be filled with pride that we are still part of this great British Union.
Or do you think that they would be too embarrassed and ashamed to admit to anyone that they actually voted NO.
BASTARDSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! (Sorry, Basil Faulty moment there)
This comment is quite simply appalling. The Tartan Army are a football supporters organisation, not a political one. It’s very likely that its membership mirrors the political views of Scots as a whole, and thus has a far larger number of No voters in it than Yes ones.
To then go on to suggest that No voters, the majority of Scots, have no right to sing the national anthem is disgusting. We’ve had abuse hurled at us by the separatist minority all throughout the referendum campaign, and it’s a real shame that it has sadly not stopped yet now that the campaign is done and dusted. However, we will not continue to be bullied by the minority; we’ll sing the national anthem and wave the flag, proudly supporting our national team.
“To then go on to suggest that No voters, the majority of Scots, have no right to sing the national anthem is disgusting. We’ve had abuse hurled at us by the separatist minority all throughout the referendum campaign, and it’s a real shame that it has sadly not stopped yet now that the campaign is done and dusted. However, we will not continue to be bullied by the minority; we’ll sing the national anthem and wave the flag, proudly supporting our national team.”
You don’t have a national team. Your nation is the UK, and it only has a football team in the Olympics.
Tony M 9 Oct, 2014 – 8:56 pm
Commenting in Craig’s blog link to craigmurray.org.uk
May I suggest Tony M’s piece is required reading:
It is a strange article indeed on NewsnetScotland about the Daily Record’s self-inflicted plight. It is of a really low-standard, not in the least bit credible or fitting to be presented to that or any site’s readers, it is self-deluded self-pitying arrant nonsense, immature and purblind, verging on the absurd.
We should be concerned about their workforce, but not about the entire population of Sotland which thanks in no small part to the Daily Record, though surpassed by that of the BBC, will suffer far greater hardship as a result of the No vote and the Record’s slavish support for the mediocrities and bare-faced crooks and liars of the Labour Party and their fear-mongering, smearing and dishonest campaigning alongside the other Tories and those even far more disreputable such as the BNP, National Front and Orange Order.
Everyone will be, a whole society and country will be by far the worse off through austerity depressing the economy and people further; through attacks on the benefit system which already strips the sick and disabled, the unemployed, pensioners and low-paid of all dignity and hope;
threats from Labour to the Winter Fuel Payment being stopped, promising to be even more austere than the Tories themselves; through astronomical unsustainable UK government indebtedness to private banking concerns who keep blowing debt bubbles through loaning money they do not have to all and sundry, right left and centre for decades;
through Scotland’s wealth subsidising a host of projects elsewhere in the UK, such as HS2, grand transport schemes in London and its environs, rebuilt sewers, Tidal Barriers, ever more lanes for the M25 and dozens more things outside Scotland, from which Scotland can derive no benefit;
through paying hundreds of billions to hire US-controlled weapons of mass destruction as a status symbol,
through uncontrolled fracking introducing up to 600 toxic chemicals into our subsoil and potentially our water supplies, risking everything from our landscape which could become a sea of sludge, to gas explosions, subsidence and earthquakes;
continuing rule by utterly corrupt Westminster politicians and an elite clique; return of the Tories ad nauseum; not so much creeping as galloping privatisation of the NHS… and so much more.
There is no limit to the crap the Daily Record and friends in the mainstream media have almost guaranteed will come Scotland’s way and I do not have the least bit of sympathy, not for one single person employed, paid blood money, to betray Scotland’s people and Scotland’s interests, by these and other establishment tools in either the media or the money-grabbing conscienceless London-based unionist triumvirate and their Scottish sycophants and ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s.
The BBC too are continuing in the same vein as during years prior to the referendum and are already propagandising blatantly and with extreme prejudice, for unionist parties in the forthcoming UK and Scottish General Elections, hanging on every word of those who lied too and scared witless a large enough section of the population, enough for them to vote against their own and their fellow citizens best interests.
They are the enemy within, they have no shame, no morals, are beyond rehabilitation and can, must, only be utterly routed and destroyed if democracy is to take root and flourish.
I do not recognise the UK as anything other than a hostile occupying parasitic and destructive entity, a miserable bogus composite state, killing the host countries of Britain. The stench comes from it and not from us and we will shake off this pestilential affliction, with purgative and disinfectant truth and light.
commons debate tuesday—vow
1230pm—7pm
NO voters watch and see how Better Together/Gordon Brown betrayed you
Oh my giddy aunt!
So THAT is what my M.P. looks like, I always wondered you know. It is great finally being able to put a face to a name. 😉
On the UKIP thingy, I tend to feel the same as galamcennalath I would rather they were no where to be seen in Scotland. That said however, I do feel that as we are more than likely going to see them all over then they will, in my Village Idiot outlook on life view, do some serious damage to both Labour and the Tories as others have indicated they might. This can only be good news from the point of view of getting MORE SNP M.P.’s into Westminster and taking the next step, whatever that may be, along the road to eventual Scottish independence. 😛
OT
BBC spouting shite again.
Claiming John Finnie joining the greens is a ‘defection’.
link to bbc.co.uk
Juan P: would it be possible to archive that link; I don’t do the biased bollocks corporation thing any more.
@Natasha:
Education is the cornerstone and staple of democracy. It’s as simple as that. And by education I don’t imply that anyone should get a Ph.D. I mean good solid culture, a minimum of scientific knowledge and, over all, critical mind. NOT “common sense”, because “common sense” is easily tricked whereas a critical mind is not. (“Common sense is nothing but the sum of the prejudices acquired at the age of 18.” A. Einstein).
If everybody was correctly reared not to believe blindly whatever they are told or what they see on TV, but to look and seek the truth for themselves, website like this one would be unnecessary…
@ kininvie, 12:55pm
On the doorsteps, people (more than a few intending to vote UKIP) were concerned about housing and jobs ‘They’ get up the housing list; ‘They’ take our jobs because they work for low wages. That’s the perception, and, for all I know, there may be some truth in it.
This I recognise. I came across more than a few who seemed to think we were about to open the floodgates. I ended up having to try to explain net migration and it wasn’t a case of encouraging thousands of people to immigrate into Scotland each year. Also, there was no understanding of the migration figure including people moving from other parts of the UK nor that we actually “lose” people to emigration.
Although the point you make about housing and jobs is relevant to attitudes, I do not think it is simply a case of worrying about numbers. I think there is a fair amount of racism, but, people do not want to admit that; just ask for a description of an immigrant. This aspect should not be ignored.
Immigration is one of the many issues where education is required.
@ Natasha
re: John Finnie / Greens
link to archive.today
@Natasha @1:09
Not sure what you meant by that, handclapping. I’d like to think you weren’t being homophobic, but it could be construed as such. Not getting at you, but maybe you’d like to clarify?
Dear oh dear the circles you move in Natasha!
Item I’m addressing Chris so the subject matter is his cartoon. Hands, as any painter will tell you, are a bugger to draw, thats why in most portraits they are holding something, gloves, a lead, a fan, that will take your eye from the portrayal of the hand. I think Chris has overemphasised the wrist notch on the left hand here so making it excessively droopy.
Item Hes a Tory == huntin, shootin, fishin etc where limp wrist is a defect in holding your firearm so that the second shot is off target
and only thirdly is it
Item a homophobic expression that I had to look up in the Urban Dictionary, but thank you for considering me young enough to know that 😀
Oh and its also a medical condition but I dont think that’s relevant here
Re John Finnie
As he is a list MSP it would be his only route to staying in Parliament by topping the Green’s Party List at the next Holyrood election and hoping the Greens poll well enough. If he re-joined the SNP he had no chance of getting a good list place in my opinion.
So John Finnie says he has been a Green all his life but just didn’t know it. Sphericals, he knows he would never have got re elected as an independent, would be unlikely to get back as an SNP list member so goes to where he thinks it will be cosy and safe for the future. Will he stand down and let the next SNP list member move up? No he wont, it’s not profitable enough.
For gods sake don’t change any policies Greens or his “principles” might kick in again.
Yah! Beauty! Now that one I really, really like.
I keep thinking they cannot get better and yet the do.
I always think Mundell looks like a wee garden gnome as he sits with his wee pointy head nodding assent to whatever, “His Masters Voice”, is spouting at the dispatch box. I also sometimes wonder if his understanding exceeds that of the earthenware gnome , (one of a pair of earthenware gnomes in my garden), bought by my late wife, which bears a really striking resemblance to Mr. Mundell.
@ Marcia
John Finnie was sufficiently principled to resign from the SNP immediately after the change in NATO policy.
I think it’s a great shame that you think (if I have understood you correctly) that he is so unprincipled that he is cynically joining the Green Party to preserve his career.
Given that NATO policy remains the same, why on earth would he wish to rejoin the SNP?
Pandas in Edinburgh Zoo from China.
Here is a present for the Orange Order from BNP.
link to facebook.com
Orangemen will be dancing around their living room
A very sneaky development here by the Daily Rancid – they are sponsoring The Kiltwalk. Kiltwalk for those that don’t know is a specific Scottish charity organising walks all over the country and the funds only go to Scottish childrens charities. On the FB thread, supporters are cracking up, and some leaving because the Daily Record would be on the banners and T shirts etc.
But when you are failing, what better thing to align yourself with, than sick children?
Many thanks to all who responded to my previous post.
I read Craig Murray’s piece before commenting here, in fact I think that’s what partly prompted my comment. I’ve read others too, whose main theme seems to be “We must stamp out these racists”.
I believe there’s a presumption there that UKIP voters are all proud, swaggering, elitist empire-baggers and, while I agree that the more visible supporters range from inhabitants of Planet Numpty to the downright dangerous, I simply don’t think that’s true. Nor do I think they swallow mince any more readily than anyone else – nor,
particularly, the UKIP tatties that accompany the meal.
But I do believe that many of them are disenchanted Labour voters. You know, the ones whose votes might make a difference? People for whom colour, creed or race are NOT the issue, but supply and demand (or need). And I’m not talking about a national overview of numbers here, I’m talking about where they live. Their local neighbourhood. People who were born and raised in a fine tradition of a fair, equal, caring society for the well-being of all, who just happened to find that their patch was bearing the brunt of the caring and sharing without any additional support. And when they found a voice to say so, they were told they were racists. By their own party.
So the question is how to take their votes back from UKIP and towards something better. That was what my previous post was about. I don’t think anyone can afford to write them off, so you can either confront or persuade them. And there really isn’t that much time – the clock’s ticking.
My view? Use arguments about improvements to infrastructure. How many doctors, teachers, schools, houses, roads, amenities could they expect (or at least hope for) by changing their vote? Back it up with facts and figures – but try to take things down to local issue level. There’s no point in saying “if only we could get rid of Trident we could all…” that’s too general, too ‘big’.
But if all else fails, borrow a bit of Project Fear’s tactics – “Vote UKIP and you’ll only let Labour in again! And you know what that means don’t you? (theatrical shudder)
Things will just get worse and worse for you!!
(Optional extra line: “Vote [SNP/Green/SSP/delete as appropriate] and make it all better!”
link to bambuser.com scotgreen party conference today.
Just back from a wee trip to Largs. Guess what 5 people giving out U.K.I.P leaflets quoting A FRESH NEW FLAVOUR FOR LARGS &MILLPORT and to vote for their candidate at a council election on 30th October. Interesting times and we have to be aware what is being pushed upon the People of Scotland
@Grouse Beater says: 11 October, 2014 at 12:13 pm:
“English in general have always been suspicious of foreigners, and detest intellectuals – hence they love a pint swilling bonehead like Farage. He talks their language.”
Whoa! Grouse Beater, If you actually think that Farage is, “a pint swilling bonehead”, then be aware you are falling for his trap. Nigel is a very rich and very clever, “Ordinary pint swilling bonehead”, richt enouch!
O/T My response from the Smith Commission to my comments on Devo Max seems to suggest that the timetable publicised by Gordon Brown/Daily Record/BBC etc is slipping. So I have emailed asking for confirmation that the Vow will be kept and on time.
Can anyone archive those youtube videos? I don’t have the technology now.
To The Secretariat to the Smith Commission
“Thank you for your reply.
I am concerned, however, to read that Lord Smith is engaged in a “process through which Heads of Agreement are reached on the devolution of further powers to the Scottish Parliament, within the UK. Lord Smith will be submitting his report on 30 November 2014”.
Can I remind you that the timeline publicised widely in the press and TV is that a “command paper” will be published by 31st October, a White Paper for consultation will be published by 30th November and a new Scotland Act drafted by 25th January.
I attach links to news articles with video setting out the offer and timeline.
link to archive.today
link to archive.today
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Can you confirm that this timetable will be adhered to.
Thank you”
UKIP supporter can’t name what UKIP stands for.
link to metro.co.uk
@ natasha
link to archive.today
I just right click on the link, paste into archive today and press submit button. You don’t actually need to open the link to archive it.
link to archive.today
Sorry – right click then copy link location! Then paste into archive today.
Farage was born near Sevenoaks in Kent His father was an alcoholic stockbroker who worked in the City of London financial district who left the family home when Nigel was five years old. Nigel was educated at Dulwich College, a public school in south London. Upon leaving school in 1982, he decided not to go to university, but work in the , “City”, trading commodities at the London Metal Exchange. He first joined the American commodity brokerage firm Drexel Burnham Lambert then moved to Credit Lyonnais Rouse in 1986. He subsequently joined Refco in 1994, and Natexis Metals in 2003. He was an activeConservative Party member in his school days but left the party in 1992 in protest at the John Major government’s signing the Treaty of Maastricht. He was a founding member of UKIP in 1993.
farage a European banker
u couldntnt make it up
walofs
bookie from hell 1.21
That should be put on billboards over the weekend. Many folk probably forgotten by now. It was 3 weeks ago.
Have been following the comments re UKIP, and am inclined to agree that although there may be some outright racists among voters, many express their concerns in such a way that leads to mention of resources.
So for me, one way I can develop responses that might sway thinking towards SNP and away from UKIP is to focus on this aspect.
Scotland is underesourced, or struggling to provide health and housing, because much of the income that would flow to Scotland as an independent country is at the moment being sent for distribution by Westminster, and only a fraction coming back.
Focussing on this type of response does seem to counter the arguments, without necessarily buying into issues of racism/ethnicity etc. and has the potential of further educating voters with respect to what projects monies derived from Scottish resources actually end up paying for in the rUK.
This type of response is clear and simple and should appeal to those who don’t have the inclination for detailed political analysis.
Thanks for the comments re this topic.
From the SNP website, a new poll:
Over the course of this week YouGov have surveyed 879 voters in Scotland and show the SNP support reaching 40 per cent, with Labour down to 28 per cent. The Tories are in third place at 18 per cent. Significantly, while UKIP make progress in England, on these sub samples they are anchored in fifth place in Scotland at a mere three per cent.
Electoral calculus gives (seats) NAT 39, Lab 16, Con 3. Lib 1
As far as I’m concerned, unless they break any laws, UKIP is a political party just the same as any other political party. They represent views that some endorse, some don’t, and some find totally repugnant. Same as any other party 🙂
Have UKIP made any submissions to the Smith commission? Scarp Holyrood, perhaps. Or just take even more of our wealth and reduce our pocket money even further?
And perhaps more importantly, has Gordon Brown presented his thoughts on ‘Home Rule’ to the Smith commission? Sounds as if it’s going to have to go a lot further than his party’s submission!
Backing up shuggy in a different way. 5% of Conservative voters voted YES. Probably only 5% of UKIP supporters were YES, perhaps even less because of the way the SNP go on about them – even in their article about the poll.
To get to 60% in the next opinion poll about Independence, or the one after that, or the one after that, it’s going to need 10-20% of Conservative voters and 10-20% of UKIP voters to want a YES. People vote for a party but don’t neccessarily endorse each and every policy they have, in fact even paid up members don’t – as in John Finnie and Jean Urquhart who left over one policy. Others stayed – 48% voted against NATO, changing from Partners from Peace to full membership.
Marginalise someone, you antagonise them, and you get a NO.
@Swami Backverandah 3.43pm
Good point; explaining to an acquaintance of mine how much of our money goes to Westminster and how little comes back was a key factor in starting her on her journey to Yes. And unfortunately she is one of the anti-Polish immigration brigade (which is why she’s an acquaintance not a friend) but hey, one step at a time.
Thank you Capella for the advice on how to archive a link; I’ll try and remember that in future!
@handclapping 2.03; sorry if I maligned you! 🙂 I’m interested in your idea that painters showed their sitters holding things because hands are a bugger to draw; I’ve never found them problematical and surely if you’re talented enough to charge for painting portraits, then you are a skilled enough draughtsperson to cope with anatomy? My understanding is that the items were symbolic representations of class, power and money . . .
I didn’t know that about the defect in firearm position – obviously you move in more gentrified circles than I do! 😉 (joke, please don’t take offence!)
I feel sick…truly nauseous. My number one charity is being sucked into the cynical heart-string pulling…
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Thanks for the pointer @Valerie
Here in England its Farage mania, “Nigel in Wunderland” is huge on one tabloid front page. Watch out for Farage and “we’re more popular than Jesus” soon. The BBC is actually disgusting to watch now down here also clicheing BBC absolute power corrupts absolutely, with really shite progs.
That BBC screaming headline bears no relationship to the actual story, as people up thread have pointed out. link to archive.today
“Former SNP MSP John Finnie defects to Greens”
Bonnie Greer pointed out this nasty trick (screaming headline followed by unremarkable actuality) on the Sky News programme when she described the press coverage of the Independence referendum as “shameful”.
BBC shows itself again to be as deceitful as the gutter press while smearing the SNP.
@heedtracker
Don’t watch it then! Life’s much more peaceful without it. 🙂
Yesindyref2: Ukip – Same as any other party
More fool you.
With age is supposed to come descrimination; the ability to tell good from thoroughly bad.
Scotland could be damaged if the country fails to move on from the “dividing line” that was created by the independence referendum, Scottish Green co-convener Patrick Harvie has warned.
link to archive.today
Shuggy: I believe there’s a presumption there that UKIP voters are all proud, swaggering, elitist empire-baggers ….. there really isn’t that much time – the clock’s ticking.
If you begin with a false proposition, invariably you end with a false conclusion. ‘Garbage in, garbage out’, as geeks say about computers.
@James Caithness 3.16, I enjoyed that James (open door policy on imigration ) there should be a open door policy for Jack A TRAP DOOR enjoy the landing Jack, whit ah muppet.
Did you realise that 97.45% of westminster government statistics were plucked out of thin air?
And that 93% of SLAB airtime on the BBC is spent in slagging off the SNP?
Well i never!!
@Grizzle McPuss, it’s a real shame, and its such an obvious move by the Daily Record to promote themselves, as they have only just come to Kiltwalk, which has been operating for a few years now. Some were saying they will just wear old T shirts etc. One person said he was leaving, and would donate direct
Here is the Wiki headline on the American firm Farage worked for:
Drexel Burnham Lambert was a major Wall Street investment banking firm, which first rose to prominence and then was forced into bankruptcy in February 1990 by its involvement in illegal activities in the junk bond market, driven by Drexel employee Michael Milken. At its height, it was the fifth-largest investment bank in the United States.
Where he learned his trade, maybe?
Harvie: Scotland could be damaged if the country fails to move on from the “dividing line” that was created by the independence referendum
If he means, there is created an ‘us’ and a ‘them,’ he sounds exactly like the meenisters pontificating from the pulpit in St Giles, slyly implying better together is the way forward.
If you want a view of UKIP, Google it with the word racist, and see the pages of gaffes made by their elected members,they are Tories on steroids, with no filter. They are dangerous, homophobic and encourage the same. They exploit the disaffected, and apathetic with their circus tricks.
@Valerie
I’ve written a scathing comment on the kiltwalk FB page…I’m absolutely boiling mad.
For the DR, of all the toilet paper MSM productions to be involving themselves in children’s charities…the very same charities attempting to offset the damage from our “better together” so called shit god-damn Union. It sheer takes the breath away.
What next…tobacco companies sponsoring heart & lung transplant units?
I’m away to sit in a cool damp place for a while, the rocking helps me calm.
Grouse Beater
If you actually look at the apparent policies of the Screaming Lord Sutch Monster Raving Loonie Party they’re more extreme than the absolute most extreme of UKIP. But some people vote for them as a protest or for fun, not having a clue what they’re voting for.
I want the next referendum to return a high YES vote as well as being more than 50%, and marginalising and “more fool you” those who disagree with you, isn’t going to make any converts to YES, from the 55% NO.
Yesindieref2: marginalising and “more fool you”
Leave Ukip to the English in England. They can and will deal with it. Like the Tea Party in the USA, they have genuine gripes but hold bizarre myths and prejudices that no intelligent and self-respecting person would want to be associated.
Hone your interest to Scotland and forget the rest.
Grouse Beater – suggest you read Mr Harvie’s speech rather than an isolated sentence xx
Nana Smith
who is he saying needs to make the movement?
he is entitled to his opinion, but his statement is abstract and meaningless.
Well we sang Flower of Scotland before the game… dunno how I feel about it really
Paula Rose: suggest you read Mr Harvie’s speech rather than an isolated sentence xx
What did you read into my sentence that did I not write?
Singing Flower of Scotland before the game must have got a good laugh from the attending match correspondents of the Scottish media.
link to youtube.com
Keiser Report: Meeting of Megaminds (E665, ft.Russell Brand & Alec Baldwin)
@Grouse Beater 4.16pm
Canvassers who have commented here would appear to differ from your view, as do I. But whether it’s disenchanted Labour voters, true blue Tories, LibDems at a crossroads, out-and-out UKIPpers or whatever – here’s the bottom line:
1. You need to get more people to vote for one of the Indy parties in GE15.
2. You need to find out why they’re not voting that way now.
3. You need to offer them a viable alternative.
4. You’ve got seven months to do that – mostly winter months.
Garbage?
@Nana – Patrick Harvie is speaking as a politician he couldn’t really say anything else although I totally disagree with him. You wont see any politicians in George Square tomorrow they have to protect their own interests. 1-0 Scotland 🙂
Apologies folks – just to de-personalise my previous post, happy to substitute “You” with “We” (or even “One needs”)
Giving Scotland more and more powers is a “dangerous recipe” which could eventually lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom, former Labour first minister Henry McLeish has suggested
link to archive.today
Shuggy: Canvassers who have commented here would appear to differ from your view, as do I.
And you speak for them?
I don’t ‘differ’ from your opinions. I reject them. Nothing you have had to say makes any sense, neither in general terms, or one sentence to the next. You appear concerned with trivia, and personal assumptions.
Anybody here attending the George Square rally tomorrow?
Grouse Beater commented on Club membership increases.
Anybody here attending the George Square rally tomorrow?
Shuggy – what you say is intelligible to me, maybe grouse beater’s server is mincing things up.
Nana Smith
the attribution blow leading to the break up of the uk already belongs to BT, it has already happened imv.
@ Paula Rose
I think maybe one of the Grouse bit back…
Anyone who can’t make it to George Square tomorrow then Kevin and the guys are livestreaming from 12:00
link to new.livestream.com
He also has a crowdfund on the go and there is no one who deserves our support more..
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2#pledges
Nana Smith
One of the points I did make in that blog article previously but removed for safety, was that Devo-Max makes the UK unstable, and would inevitably lead to Independence.
I though it best to remove that line!
Anyone who can’t make it to George Square tomorrow then Kevin and the guys are livestreaming from 12:00
Heads up appreciated, Croompenstein. I’ll pass the info to folk unable to attend.
This is a better link to Mcleish’s comments
link to archive.today
Henry McLeish: More Scots powers could lead to break-up of UK
Grouse Beater commented on Club membership increases.
Anybody here attending the George Square rally tomorrow?
Yes. Me.
@yesindyref2
Am I the first to reply to myself? Shucks, of course not.
Anyway, I think with the success of UKIP which I think contains a large element of disgust with the three other Westminster parties, with clamours from the regions and cities, Northern Ireland wanting more Devo and even Carwyn Jones, a staunch WM unionist, looking for more, the UK is unstable as it is, and not likely to become more stable without massive constitutional change.
I think Scotland has our chance right now, but will be very soon submerged in “more important” issues in the rUK, like its very survival. It’s a shame the 55% didn’t take the chance and escape now before the worst of it.
@Nana – Henry the yes teaser, I wouldnae listen to a word that man says he has no principles. He knew the benefits of independence to our nation and our people but he shat it and put his stinking party before his beliefs
Did tartan army sing flower of scotland?
@Croompenstein
You are so right. A man with no honour in a party with no honour. I pray people have the sense to rid Scotland of old labour.
I notice that there are loads of new posters since the referendum.
Serious question, what made you start posting now the referendum is over?
Right it is getting embarrassing now with the Flower of Scotland singing!! ‘and stood against him..a ballot paper’. and Steven Naismith is the new Kenny Miller 🙂
I’ll be at George Sq tomorrow -looking forward to it.
Yes they did sing FoS???
Apparently lots of the Yes voters were wearing 45 shirts.
@Juteman – all are welcome are you Morag in disguise?
@yesindyref2
Only now saw your comment. “Devo-Max makes the UK unstable”
The UK has been unstable for years,led by ‘unstable’ politicians.
I’m planning on being in George Square. It’ll be the first time I’ve ever attended anything, kinda scared and kinda excited.
=====
OT
I’ve been reading the submission guidelines for the Smith Commission and they are giving me a little bit of concern.
One of the things that really worried me about the Referendum Debate was the way we constantly engaged with all the stupid policy questions. They were essentially all just ‘Straw-men’ designed to cause us to waste our energy debating nonsense that didn’t really matter and to distract the electorate from the real issues.
The Smith Commission might be going much the same way with its focus on specific powers and their advantages and disadvantages.
I think we need to focus the Commission’s attention on the core issues and not permit them to drift into endlessly debating trivialities.
To this end I submitted the following. If anyone would like to crib from it they would be most welcome and I would encourage everyone to submit something similar to focus the Commission’s attention on the core issues. Or to at least make it difficult to say in retrospect that the public had not made their wishes plain.
—–
11th October 2014
Dear Sirs
The Commission needs to recognise that its primary mission is to achieve the objectives set out in the ‘Vow’ given to the Scottish people by the Leaders of the three main political parties in Westminster.
This ‘Vow’ was given in a last ditch, desperate attempt to save the Union and the evidence clearly supports the position that it was indeed effective in doing so and also absolutely necessary. Lord Ashcroft’s poll indicated that some 25% of those that voted No in the referendum did so because of the additional promises made in the ‘Vow’.
There can be no doubt that for the result of that referendum to have any credibility even over the short term the promises made must be kept.
It should be noted that not just the letter of the ‘Vow’ needs to be enacted but also its spirit. There are numerous examples of senior Ministers and members of the ‘Better Together’ campaign publicly characterising the additional powers promised in the ‘Vow as ‘Devo-Max’ both before the referendum and subsequently.
This is a very clearly understood term in Scotland. To not honour that commitment would be to effectively breach the contract that the Better Together campaign offered the Scottish electorate in return for a No vote.
Devo-Max means that ALL powers that CAN be devolved MUST be devolved.
It is not a question of should they be devolved or will such devolution be of benefit to Scotland or the UK as a whole.
Should it transpire, or be decided by the Scottish Government, that it is not in the interest of Scotland or the rest of the UK for certain powers to be devolved then it should be the prerogative of the Scottish Government to give them back to Westminster not for Westminster to deny or withdraw them.
The other and probably slightly more critical matter is that of the Permanence of the new Constitutional arrangements.
A Permanent Devolved Parliament is what was promised and that is what must be delivered.
There can be no half measures or non-binding agreements or once again the contract effectively becomes void.
No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom can deliver such a promise. No Parliament can bind its successors.
There is only one way to effect a Permanent Constitutional Settlement.
It is necessary to recall the predecessors of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
You will have the interesting opportunity to craft the mechanisms necessary to do so.
Binding Permanent Constitutional Settlement can easily be achieved by recalling the relevent Parliaments and making alterations to the Acts of Union. These can be pre-agreed by all parties and designed specifically to make the promises of the ‘Vow’ a reality and to give us a model for Constitutional change, going forward, that will be better suited to the world that the United Kingdom now operates within.
By the simple expedient of inserting the new devolution provisions into the Acts of Union and inserting a ‘Dead Man’s’ Clause that dissolves the Union should the Parliament of the United Kingdom ever attempt to dissolve or diminish the Scottish Government the desired Permanence can be achieved and the ground work for any future Constitutional Evolution can be laid.
It is my opinion that this Commission and its parallel Commission examining ‘English Votes for English Laws’ can at best be stop-gap measures.
It is essential that the promises of the ‘Vow’ be enacted fully and to the time-table that was committed to but it is clear that the debate over where we want to go in the future as a family of Nations may take generations.
The primary concern of your Commission must be to live up to the spirit of the ‘Vow’ and to lay solid foundations for a strong and prosperous future together.
A failure to do so will make the break up of the United Kingdom inevitable.
Nana Smith says:
11 October, 2014 at 5:34 pm
Giving Scotland more and more powers is a “dangerous recipe” which could eventually lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom, former Labour first minister Henry McLeish has suggested
No powers of any consequence will be devolved by London EVER, let me assure you. The revenues from whisky and oil are simply too enormous to let go of. If London lost these enormous revenues, the UK would be instantly bankrupt! London has already been forward spending the proceeds of oil and whisky for years now-how do you think cross rail, m25, and multitudes of other grandiose projects benefiting no-one but southern england have been financed, ffs!!
The ONLY way Scotland is to move forward would be to “chip round the edges” of the remaining 5% we require to bring us up to 50% yes- however, most Scots regard the union as a comfort blanket and their mindset will not change-the younger Scots will be our salvation.
Forget this commission-its only purpose is to delay, obscure, and ultimately deliver sfa to the Scottish peoples.
Another referendum in, say, 3 or 4 years should do the trick!
Yes. Me.
I’ll be looking to say hello to weel kent monikers …
Yup, how the hell can the naysayers/voters in the Tartan army join in singing FoS and not realise they could not find the balls to put an X in a ballot paper!
Sleep safe tonight Scotland with these tossers on watch!
@Juteman
It’s kind of intimidating. I didn’t start reading Wings until August I think and there is clearly a well formed and experienced community.
It is difficult to just jump in and start speaking in that sort of environment. It feels scary and not a little rude and pushy.
It also doesn’t help that almost every thread is hundreds of posts long by the time you have read it and formulated any sort of coherent opinion worth sharing.
I’ve always been reticent to post under those circumstances because it feels a bit pointless as hardly anyone will read what you have to say when it is at the bottom of a thousand post thread…
Another referendum will only do the trick if we have all worked our cotton socks off to increase the political awareness of the population as a whole – how we do this is by being relevant to local issues and concerns. I doubt that that can be achieved by a top down approach. The journey to independence is teaching us all that.
I’m for the square too
yesindyref2
i’ll suffice to say, history will not be kind to BT!
they have created a right mess of things for scotland, the people of scotland, and they expect us to clean it up.
i don’t care to appease them, nor clean up their/BT’s mess.
@nigel
Agree with you, I did post a few times already that the commission is worthless and is already being delayed.
link to newsnetscotland.scot
Couldn’t agree more Nana!
@Croopenstein.
Are you an undisguised twat?
If I detect any hand-bag swinging tonight, there will be consequences.
Juteman
For me Juteman, though I did post the odd couple before, I was busy on the Herald, and kept myself apart so my posts there were all my own work.
I did pack in the Herald though I’m back a bit to chase up the Devo-Max angle, but came here to add my bit to try to help consoling the inconsolable after the Ref result, keep the bonfire (so more than just a torch!) of Independence alive, and I suppose, wean myself off the Herald 🙂
Also to keep an eye on what’s happening, do a bit to help communication between groups if possible, like YES shops, and got interested in the GE 2015 and SE2016 possibilities. I also at first didn’t know whehter to support Devo-Max as a stage to indy, or oppose it as making Indy less likely. I chose the former.
I soon decided that far from being a “once in a generation” referendum, the likelihood is there’ll be one in 2 years, 3 years, or even 5 years. For me, the Smith Commission is something that has to be pushed and pushed, not let slide into obscurity, as it keep the issue alive before the 3.6 million voters, and can unite the 45% and much of the 55% as nothing else might do.
Scotland have won 1-0 but really deserved to win by more but we have seen with Spain and Netherlands how difficult it is to break down well set up defensive teams. Flower of Scotland a bit cringeworthy but we’ll see what happens when England visit next month. btw the boy Andy Robertson must be one of the best debuts ever for a young Scot.
Nana Smith
The UK has been unstable for years, but I think the Referendum, specially the last two weeks, really brought that to the notice of the rest of the UK – and perhaps Scotland as the long-lasting effect. People may still be thinking about it all, and paying more attention. I hope so.
@Nana Smith link to Henry McLeish’s comments:
One of McLeish’s comments is:
Why is it you can have 97% of people registering to vote, 85% of people voting, then the day after we leave it to three unionist parties at Westminster to decide our future. How ridiculous.
It’s ridiculous for them to decide it at any time, which is why we want independence, but the guy’s too stupid to see it. What a twat.
The levels of testosterone floating about on this thread are, as usual, far too high. Get a grip, guys, and stop squaring up to each other.
Nana Smith
guy fawkes couldn’t have done a better job.
I`m for the square.
O/T
There is a blog doing the rounds at moment The Trouble with Tommy which has a ‘feminist’ perspective article attacking Sheridan. This is getting a major following on WFI timelines and FB’s.
Looks like the athousandflowers domain is registered to Liam Turbett who appears to have stood as a SSP candidate in Maryhill Council elections 3 MAY 2012
Article here link to archive.today is attributed to admin so is it written by Liam?
Is this the same Liam Turbett who writes for that feminist publication Vice Magazine the one that Murdoch has a 5% stake in.
Immaculate timing anyway!
Ilyana
Just looked at he low level anti Tommy url.
As an ex SSP member who left becuase of the SSP’s “ambivalent” stance on Indpendence, the greater lie, I can only say it is impossible to talk politics with most SSP members I meet,some of them friends of mine, without them going into a manic rant about Tommy Sheridan and shouting over everyone. To blame Tommy for the demise of the SSP is like blaming the Titanic for the lack of deck chairs and completely ignoring the iceberg that the blind could not see.
Like I said before on here, “SOME” Yes campaigning groups spent more time attacking Alex Salmond and the SNP – and Tommy Sheridan- than they did putting up a positive case for Independence. Get a life. Get over it. One SSP member, a friend of mine attacking Tommy Sheridan, said people will turn on the person grassing someone rather than the the person accused of something.
Making a big deal of minutes and posing for the cameras while they were handed over to the police station was a big mistake. A minute is not a minute till it is agreed at the following meeting as accurate or otherwise. Then it could be used as a legal document. Such a matter, true or false, should have been discussed off the record and dealt with, not pursued in public, to the detriment of all else. Nor should Executive members have written articles for the gutter press for large sums of money, nor have written a book (and I say that as a friend of the author) and the people who collected money from the Sun and Daily Record and Rose should not have acted herself or appeared in a play about Tommy, her oath should have remained for the people not the Crown prosecution. Again, this is said in sorrow not anger.
I can only say that in the cross party SRSM, formed in 1973, that such accusation were always discussed off the record, with the right of appeal and witnesses, plus the offer of a “neutral” Chair agreed by all. We newer pursued the matter, or attacked any the accused in public and allowed them to go their own way, no matter what the cause, usually more serious than alleged sexual offences. After all, it was the left who invented sex.
Me, I just live a quiet life and will be at the Skerr oan the Sabbath, regardless of black kettles, pots and latter day “socialist Saints” turned Holy Wullies and witch finder generals.
The Skwerr, the Skwerr.
Who’ll all be there?
Nae merr splittin’ herrs
Nae Gods or prerrs.
A Scottish Socialist Republic I prefer.
An imperfect Independence? I’ll still be there.
A British colony, nae merr, nae merr.
Whist you bicker, the Brits will wipe the flerr.
Or Auld Scotia will be nae merr, nae merr.
Fat Burns.
Natasha – re the testosterone, don’t worry the Lipstick Liberation Front are waiting in the wings xx
@yesindyref2
Well from speaking with a friend who works in a shop and tells me of conversations with customers and staff, the referendum has not gone away.
Before the 18th she didn’t hear much about it from folks but since the result and especially this last week people are more vociferous regarding the vow. She tells me there is real anger and has noticed it mainly from older people, questioning the media’s stance on why they pushed home rule but are now backtracking.
So lets hope more people have had their eyes opened and keep them open.
@Juteman – Are you an undisguised twat?
Sorry Jute it was meant to be tongue in cheek..should have added a smiley 🙂
But why can no one spell my name??
yesindyref2,
“As far as I’m concerned, unless they break any laws, UKIP is a political party just the same as any other political party.”
UKIP on its own is not the problem in Scotland.
The problem is the BBC’s promotion of it (not deliberately of course) which led to a Scottish UKIP MEP.
But it will backfire spectacularly in 2015 when UKIP splits the unionist vote to let in Yes Alliance or SNP MPs.
@ilyana 7.09pm
Thanks for the archived link. What a revolting article that was, and the very fact that it was anonymous (so-called ‘admin’) discredits it straight away. I don’t know the ins and outs of what Tommy Sheridan did or didn’t do, but if I have to choose between a man who went to jail for his principles over the poll tax and the News of the World hand in glove with the legal establishment, then it’s a no-brainer really. It certainly won’t stop me being at the rally tomorrow.
@ Croompenstein – I’ve put a spell on you xx
Well we sang Flower of Scotland before the game… dunhow I feel about it really
Sorry, I just couldn’t, not after the 18th.
@croompenstein
That’s Robertson’s first competitive start, not his international debut. Watching him last year at Tannadice was phenomenal. He really bonded with GMS and Gauldy and the three of them would form a running triangle where they literally ran rings round the opposition. Then, for a laugh, he would see a long opening and just keep running with the ball before cracking off a shot.
Personally, I would have preferred him to go abroad like Gauld to advance his career but at least he picked a team with the right colours. 🙂
Luigi dear was it this version?
O fearties of Scotland
When will we see our like again
That gave up the fight for
our own independence
And cast a no vote to continue
Westminster rule
And sent the money
Down south again
The tills are bare now
And politicians lie through and through
We all did our duty
Which we so dearly held
And cast a no vote to continue
Westminster rule
And now we love being
A region for sure
18th of September is passed now
An astonishing day
But we can still vote now
In our wee pretendy parliament
And cast a wee vote
For B-list MSPs
And make sure we never
forget our place again
@Croompenstein:
But why can no one spell my name??
Copy/Paste does not work on Windows maybe?
By the way, I’d have expected a ‘K’ as first letter, not a ‘C’.
The levels of testosterone floating about on this thread are, as usual, far too high.
Soya is full of phytoestrogens, that’s why Asian males are cooler. Guys, eat soya before commenting on Wings.
There’s guys I work with who I had worked on for ages and about 2 month out from the referendum I eventually got them turned, well they are now more vocal than I ever was. One of them got his pic taken with FM and part of me did think you cnut I have fought for this so long and you come in johnny come lately and act like it’s your lifes work.
Some are taking their kids to George Square tomorrow and although I am upset beyond words by the indy ref result these folk are extremely upset and vocal. I have not accused them of freeloaders remorse, as some posters put it, or asking why they came to the party so late. The important thing is they are here and fighting with us so I can understand the need to post on Wings and other sites but lets not chase new folk away.
@Paula Rose – I’ve put a spell on you xx
You are a spellbinder honey xx 😀
@ Juteman
For me, I was lurking for a while and when some of the wingers were complaining they were not being as successful with the Tory voters I piped up admitted my former shame just to show you were reaching us as well.
Of course now I’m just blethering and hopefully helping out crowd funding, boycotting etc.
Chris – Brilliant cartoon.
Craig Murray – Brilliance to sum up such a complex situation so well in such a short article.
In general – I’m still baffled as to why I am still part of this cesspit labled the UK. What madness awaits us next year?
When I look back at the positive opportunities that were within touching distance a few weeks ago I could cry.
p.s. I’m still not feeling better together…..I’m just feeling numb!
@ilyana – thats interesting cos on twitter most folk have told them to piss off – so are you saying it’s a guy who is writing this
Also some folk on twitter saying their Yes Scotland flags were removed before they could get into the match today and at the end some of the crowd singing – There’s only one Alex Salmond – don’t know if that’s true but if anyone knows of someone at the match, they could maybe confirm/deny
Paula Rose says:
If I detect any hand-bag swinging tonight, there will be consequences.
Just popped in for a second to see how everyone is behaving and saw that oor Paula is already reading oot the riot act. 😉 Can I watch Paula, I just love when you deal out your *ahem* consequences. 😛
P.S. I’m searching oot an appropriate coloured lippy as I speak. 😀
I’ve had a crashing headache for the last two days so if you’ll all excuse me I’m away back into the “Darkened Room” for a wee lie down and perhaps some medicinal refreshment. 😉
Nana Smith
That’s great. it’s one reason I keep pushing Devo-Max, with that attitude, “well, we wanted Indy but lost the referendum, so now we’re behind you for what you wanted, Devo-Max.” to the half or more of the 55% who want DM.
Then it’s 75% behind DM, which hopefully continues on to 75% who go for Indy next time. With 75% behind Indy, there ain’t no stopping us. Mmm, I feel a song coming on:
Ain’t no stoppin’ us now
we’re on the move
ain’t no stoppin’ us now
we’ve got the groove
There’s been so many
things that’s held us down
but now it looks like things
are finally comin’ around
I know we’ve got
a long, long way to go
and where we’ll end up
I don’t know
But we won’t let
nothin’ hold us back
we’re puttin’
ourselves together
we’re polishing
up our act, yeah
eh, and so on!
We must not let UKIP and their endeavors detract from the ‘vow’ as the media brainwashing shower of shit will try to muddy the waters with any and every distaction they can pump out 24/7 on their propaganda outlets to promote the Devo Max arrangement to the gutter.
My feeling is if they cannot deliver on their so called ‘vow’ then we, the people of Scotland’ should reject their referendum result. Simple as .
I wiil never accept that INDEPENDENCE will not happen.
Because WESTMINSTER has decided it will be so.FUCK THEM.
Good performance tonight Scotland. Should have been 4. As an Arab I can say with confidence that soon Robertson will be banging in 30 yarders. Looked good tonight on the whole and I hope the team have a lot in the tank for a tougher test on Tuesday.
Unrelated: was out with a yes group today and although it was a quiet day, we caught some people who are very much up for turfing Labour out of Scotland (and obviously all the other Westminster corporation slaves): some of our sign ups were ex activists for labour.
Grouse Beater commented on Club membership increases.
Anybody here attending the George Square rally tomorrow?
I am – a friend isn’t going with his kids because he’s worried about the bother the last time in George Square – shame that he feels he can’t go because of those knuckle draggers.
@Croompenstein ah kin speil yer name nae probs.
Wings banners already for a days airing at St George’s Square tomorrow,I hope many of you Wingers can make it.
Thanks @Natasha and @liz
Difficult to know for sure but the domain of the site is registered to Liam Turbutt, Maryhill and the article attributed to admin.
I`m for the square. Don`t forsee any trouble, thousands will be there,maybe more. Sad that those f*krs can cause some to be cautious about attending an event like this.
@Auld A – By the way, I’d have expected a ‘K’ as first letter, not a ‘C’.
It’s a stupid story how I came about the name and I would have explained it on here but our good Rev doesn’t give a monkey’s chunky about things like that so I look forward to explaining it to john king or oor ronnie anderson at a future WoS get together 😀
What time is tomorrow starting at Glasgow?
I might pop on the train.
We could do with better advertisement, like an events website or something, I’m not sure where these rallies have been organised..?
Dougiekdy: because of those knuckle draggers.
I agree. Intimidation. Almost as bad as that meted out by the British Establishment.
See you there.
Something that’s crossed my mind recently – I have a bit of a niggle about the rescheduling of Lord Smith’s all-party talks.
The discussions were originally scheduled for next Tuesday, 14th Oct. But then I noticed Gordon Brown’s adjournment debate also coming up next week – on Tuesday 14th. And now the all-party talks have been delayed till the following week, on 22nd.
I trust the schedule change hasn’t been made in order to accomodate Gordon Brown’s diary in any way. Or to allow the outcome of the debate to subtly influence the tone of the discussions.
The Good Lord said: “I will be quick to intervene if I feel that anyone is undermining the work of the Commission or the cross-party talks.”
Good Lord… is it just me?
This is astonishing –
Exclusive image of Lamont being told by her nearest cronies that the game’s a bogey and The Murph is about to be parachuted in. No wonder she’s had to sit down –
link to rugby-parkway.com
@Paula Rose;
“Another referendum will only do the trick if we have all worked our cotton socks off to increase the political awareness of the population as a whole – how we do this is by being relevant to local issues and concerns. I doubt that that can be achieved by a top down approach. The journey to independence is teaching us all that”.
I like that statement Paula.
What I’m seeing locally (Fife) is a great determination to succeed. The local YES Shop was being refreshed with new stock today, and staff were busy preparing to continue informing the local community about the clear and positive changes that shall result from Scotland being an independent nation.
I’m in complete agreement that much will be achieved through hard work targeted at street level.
The good thing is; PEOPLE NOW REALISE AND BELIEVE OPENLY, that the BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION and NEWSPAPERS IN SCOTLAND (Sunday Herald apart) ROUTINELY DECEIVE THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND. THEIR PURPOSE IS TO MISLEAD AND MISINFORM and it’s SHAMEFUL THAT THEY DO THIS TO THEIR OWN.
Work colleagues laugh about it regularly. They also regularly discuss the antics of the UNIONISTIC POLITICIANS in Scotland and their PITIFUL APPEARANCE AND UTTERANCES. Scotland needs much more than the union can offer, and it CLEARLY DEMANDS MORE ABLE PEOPLE TO SERVE THE COUNTRY THAN THOSE CURRENTLY ON SHOW FROM THE WESTMINSTER TORIES, LABOUR AND THE LIBERALS.
I think AMBITION has taken root in good fertile soil, and the conditions are perfect for strong and sustained growth before the ultimate harvest. THE WORKERS ARE MOTIVATED, ABLE AND AMBITIOUS.
This website is a WINDOW to it all, and at times it’s remarkable to sit, read and contemplate what people are doing to achieve good things for the benefit of the people of Scotland.
SHAME ON THOSE WHO OPPOSE such self sacrifice for the benefit of others.
Won’t be in George Square tomorrow, but a friend of mine has borrowed my heels and will be in attendence – please take her under your wing.
(btw boys – this is not carte blanche to stare at the ground)
@Croompenstein:
It’s a stupid story how I came about the name and I would have explained it on here but our good Rev doesn’t give a monkey’s chunky about things like that
Try the ‘Off-topic’ thread.
Because if you keep it for you until we meet, you’ll have to grit your teeth for a while! 😉
Who is organising all this anyway?
‘Thistle’ appeal now 51% there – wonderful effort indeed.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2#pledges
@Gallowglass its 12 o clock at George Sq.
Neither I will attend tomorrow’s George Square rally, but I firmly expect some Winger to take some (aerial) shots and post them somewhere.
Even the Sun might show up!
Don’t wing it guys!
Grouse Beater
See you there, I’ll be wearing a Yes badge and a large grin, should be easy to spot me – Eh ok, maybe not????
@Paula Rose I hope you havent lent them heels to the person known formaly as the Thepnr.
Thanks @donald anderson
I like that verse and very apt we should all, every one in yes commit it to memory, we are I think going to need it.
@Gallowglass
IndyScotEvents are doing great work tracking all the goings-on.
link to indyscot.info
This is something I have been wanting to get off my chest since the referendum but it hasn’t been until now that I felt I’ve had enough time to reflect on it as well as being able to articulate it properly.
I’m sure everybody who voted Yes feels scunnered by the result. I am but I am unable to express how gutted, demoralised and low I have been feeling over the previous couple of weeks.There has been times where I have felt empty inside and asked myself was I wrong in the way I voted. Looking back, the arguments for independence weren’t articulated well enough and the message didn’t get through properly but what really got me was the blatant cynicism of a part of the Scottish population who knew they were being played, to use an Americanism, by the Better Together campaign but had chosen to play dumb and drink from BT’s koolaid, to use another Americanism, because it suited their short term interests of seeing no change as being good. It hurts to know that the referendum could well have been lost because of this cynicism but I have taken a step back from this and reflected on it. I like everybody else am very human, I’ve done things in the past that if given the chance I’d have done differently but I’ve realised there is no point living in the past, going over regrets or wishing I had done things differently. It’s a case of seeing what’s happened in the past as what’s happened and getting on with my life and accepting it. If I feel that way about things that happened in my own life then why shouldn’t I feel the same way towards what happened in the referendum? I feel I have finally done that. The referendum happened, we lost the argument, there is no point dwelling on it and we need to move on. Every single person in the Yes campaign did in their own way the best they could have and every one of us should feel proud about it.
While we are on the subject of the 45% of us who voted Yes and the comments made by Patrick Harvie, I would like to say something. I don’t know much but I do know that the proudest thing that can happen to anyone is bringing a new life in the world. It is the most powerful and unselfish act that an individual can do. I haven’t had that pleasure to experience that but as I mentioned it is one of those things that has happened and there is no point dwelling on it. However, I can put my hand on my heart and say that putting a cross beside Yes on the ballot paper on the 19th of September is the proudest thing I have done and I am not going to apologise nor be ashamed by it. I say this because I’m not a rich man, I earn well below the average UK minimum wage and there was a lot of doubts in my mind beforehand about whether I would cope if things went wrong as well as a hundred other things. However I had put those thoughts aside because it was the right thing to do and to nick some patter from Tommy Sheridan, I had chosen hope over fear. Voting Yes made me for the first time realise what it meant to be Scot because I stood shoulder to shoulder with 45% of my countrymen and woman, many of whom a lot more worse off than I am and therefore a lot more to lose than me, because we believed in the unselfish reason that it was the right thing to do. This may seem sentimental, simplistic or naive to the likes of people that Patrick Harvie is saying will stop the desire for independence from growing but that is me, a simple man in a complicated world. Patrick Harvie and the other politicians who support independence has a far better idea of the bigger picture than the likes of me and knows what to do to get independence but I do know one thing. The establishment has more than enough time on their hands, they have their 3 political parties who will carry out with their whims and they can wait until the idea of independence becomes a distant memory if allowed to. Those who associate themselves with the 45% might reek of tribalism but if the energy and enthusiasm of the Yes campaign is allowed the whither then the establishment will have won. Those who associate themselves with the 45 should like me be proud of how they voted on the 19th and never apologise nor be ashamed but like me they need to let go, accept the result of the referendum, choose hope over fear and continue to keep the dream alive in a positive manner .
link to yeslocal.info
HOPE OVER FEAR RALLY GEORGE SQUARE GLASGOW
George Square, George Street, GLASGOW, G2 1DU
Sunday, October 12, 12:00 (3 hrs)
@dougiekdy –
If you make sure you’re wearing ONLY a Yes badge and a grin you will be spotted very easily.
(Whatever happened to ‘streaking’ anyway? Good clean fun…)
The UKIP cannot be allowed to defile our bonny land. How they have gotten a hold on England is frightening…. but then the Englanders were never big on the Enlightenment or, shudder, European values…
Here’s an idea. How would you like to see as cabinet ministers when we get independence? I vote the following:
1. Minister of police and immigration = Tommy Sheridan
2. Minister of foreign affairs = Alex Salmond
3. Minister of finance = Michelle Thomson
4. Minister of trade and industry = Robin McAlpine
5. Minister of culture = David Hayman
6. Minister of nationalised industries = Jim Sillars
7. Minister of youth = Cat Boyd
8. Minister of women and equality = Jeanne Freeman
9. Head of state/president = Lesley Riddoch
10. Scottish ambassador to USA = Craig Murray
First minister Nicola Sturgeon surely?
Husker honey – everybody hurts sometime, we are not 45%, we are Scotland and we will all be independent thinkers one day soon.
Kenny honey – Miss Tress for make-up moi?
Dougiekdy: I’ll be wearing a Yes badge and a large grin
… and a demeanour of stealy determination.
Here’s to liberty, brother.
(or Mini Stir- giggle)
@Husker – Well said, don’t be put off posting as your opinion is every bit as valid as anyone else. I know where you are coming from as I have friends who feel exactly the same. But FFS watch the paragraph breaks as Rev Stu may not be as sympathetic 🙂
Ronnie, Grouse Beater and the rest, see you lot before noon.
Hope over Fear link,
link to m.facebook.com
@Husker –
Hope you feel better, having offloaded that.
We’re all still hurting in different ways, finding our own methods of dealing with it. Not all of those methods are healthy, but needs must at times…
Neal Ascherson wrote, after the ’79 vote, how he witnessed colleagues and friends succumb to alcohol and terminal depression, because they knew the chance had been lost for a generation. (Can’t recall the text where he was quoted – someone here will know it.) Well, a generation has passed right enough – and we’ve just gone and done it again!
What are we like?! Doh!!
I don’t mean to sound flippant, but hey, it’s just another ‘method’. Believe me friend, I was standing no more than ten, twelve feet away from Brian Donohoe as the most important results came in on the Friday morning, and his laughter is something which will stay with me until my dying day.
I know they say ‘he who laughs last laughs longest’ etc, but I’m not interested in the revenge game. For a lot of us it’s no ‘laughing-matter’, period, and nothing – not even braggadocio from living fossils like Donohoe – will detract us from the goal.
Our day will come pal. Believe it.
Calling Scotland..
Get yourselves down to George Square / iGlasgow at high noon tomorrow.. that’s right, independent Glasgow said YES. This is OUR opportunity to have that celebration that was so ‘rudely’ disrupted!
Among other attractions, there are some great speakers and groovy live music lined up for the day, but the most important thing to see there is YOU.. so let’s do this!
Full independence is coming to Scotland very soon.. but in the meantime (just like my fellow citizens) “I belong to iGlasgow, sweet aye Glasgow town”.
Let’s get busy with it independent people X
BBC ‘Children in Need’ appeal?
1.5 million people in Scotland cared so much about everyone in need that they were prepared to allow a Government based on compassion, care and a just society. This would have been (and still can be) a beacon to the rest of the world & I am proud of that.
I will be at George Square tomorrow supporting the cause that I will die still believing in.
see you there.
Oooo, Naomi Wolf is speaking tomorrow, along with Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan!
@ Ronnie Anderson 9:26 – honey he comes up to my navel, I’m not sure I want him near my decolletage so no he has not had permission to climb the stairway to heaven.
I saw on a facebook link about the rally tomorrow that 14,500 have said they will definitely be there.
So, who knows what the final count will be.
BBC Scotland headlines tomorrow night,
“Three hundred separatists squeeze into George SQ.”
With ref to new posters since the 18th .IT is no point bitching amongst ourselves like that.I have read wings for months and have only posted since 18th because I didn’t want to give up .I went to meetings gave out wee blue books pestered people till they changed there vote .I could have done more and should have but I haven’t gave up.I have joined the SNP and will never give up till my dream becomes a reality .Some people are starting to sound like Rangers fans who claim to have been season ticket holders pre souness.Get over it we are same side
Well said Husker, as Paula Rose says we are Scotland and we will get there…all of us count in this journey. 🙂
If anyone knows how to flag up a bit of info for those in the YES Alliance leadership quarters –
The Irish Government announced this week that it had agreed a joint visa scheme for non-EU citizens so that Irish visas to Indian or Chinese tourists will be respected in London and vice versa.
If I recall from the Indy debate we were told that an independent Scotland could not do this and Tourism would suffer.
It would be interesting to tease out when this deal was made , compared to when it was announced.
ALSO Bugger (the Panda) above may be right about tech problems accessing this thread.
AND regarding John Finnie, I saw him in action while campaigning in the Highlands in September. I forget the female MSP that was campaigning with him who was quite impressive but also has done a flit over NATO. My feeling was they were quite wrong to leave the SNP over NATO because of what I have heard described as the ‘Bus analysis’ of political campaigning.
This means that – if you know your destination – you cannot always get there in one stop and may need several stops along the way to get there – but you need enough people on the bus to pay your way to the next destination. It is pretty obvious that the body politic is likely to reject NATO if the Country was independent – but we have not reached that stop yet – so reducing fear of independence is important to keep enough people on the bus until you get there. By this analysis, John Finnie was throwing his rattle out of the crib on NATO and ‘took his eye off the ball’ and undermined the overall campaign with self-important posturing.
However, now he has joined the Greens, he is back on the bus. The SNP needs the Greens on the bus to get to the next stop on the route to their final destination, and the Greens need the SNP to deliver the sort of country where they could have an influence on government policy before the world goes irreparably to hell.
So let bye-gones be bye-gones and leave Finnie alone.
MEANWHILE I want to see proposals from the leadership of the Greens, SNP and other YES groups how they are going to maximize the YES electoral performance in May 2015 and in 2016 being two of the next stops on the journey.
I am a bit irritated that we have not seen this done yet, and am worried that ‘Yes’ campaign groups across the Country are not being given a clear road-map of where we are going and what we are doing. I for one want to plan my holidays accordingly.
We are well able to criticise the 3 Tory Westminster parties for departing from their false timetable for delivering devo-max.
Lets be a little more critical of ourselves for not being able to deliver a clear YES Alliance timetable for the next 18 months in a manner that will inspire the hundreds of YES local action groups around the country. . . . .
Husker: But like me they need to let go, accept the result of the referendum.
Another Pop-Up Yes Post.
I’ve lost count of the number of ‘Yes’ voters popping up on this site for the first time since the plebiscite telling the rest of us to feel proud, but to accept defeat and ‘move on.’
The entire movement for self-determination is reduced to a gutteral yelp, getting some sort of constipated rant off our collective chest. Once released, time to return to playing dominoes and bowls.
Sorry, but those who employ that cliche have no idea what motivates the human spirit.
If you acknowledge, and if you take into account the array of weaponry the British Establishment was able to call upon to imbalance and overturn the democratic process, to twist it to suit its purpose, you have no other choice but to declare the process fraudulent from start to finish.
For that reason alone, no one can ‘move on.’
And to prove my point the rancid opposition interpret the result as a ‘resounding vote for the union.’
It was anything but, particularly when so many’ No’s voted for substantially greater democratic powers. Why else does the opposition scramble to offer Scotland some sort of consolation prize?
Where has it all gone’ – grousebeater.wordpress
Scot goes pop poll of polls:
SNP 41.0% (+5.2)
Labour 27.4% (-4.0)
Conservatives 17.6% (-0.1)
Liberal Democrats 7.2% (+2.1)
UKIP 3.4% (-2.1)
Greens 2.8%
Electoral calculus gives (seats) NAT 40, Lab 15, Con 3. Lib 1
Very close to the SNP’s analysis of the Yougov subsamples I posted earlier, as you’d expect I guess.
Cadogan: now he has joined the Greens, he is back on the bus
Better be powered by electricity.
Ian Brotherhood – would go for that but it’s a bit cauld in October, wouldnae want to embarrass myself????
Grouse Beater – you’re right on that one – this isn’t over by a long way!
@Husker – thanks so much for your post. You hit every nail on the head. And it was so good to be reminded of how fabulous it felt writing that X in the yes box. Due to the result and the heart break, I had put those thoughts to the side. Not anymore. The first half is over. We are 1-0 behind due to dirty tricks of the opposition. I like to think we’ve had our chew of the half-time orange and it’s time to get out on the pitch. As they say, it’s a game of two halves and I know we will win the match….
RALLY: SPEAKERS LIST: 12 – 5pm
12 – 1pm: Derek Durkin, Rosemary Byrne, Dillon Spencer, Jordan Daly, Marie Penman, Keira Lucchesi
1 – 2pm: Mhairi Black, Sam Shackleton, Tahir Mohammed, SNP Cllr Pat Lee, Craig Murray, Carmen Pieraccini
2 – 3pm: Naomi Wolf, Cllr Patrick Scott Hogg, Paul Brannigan, Paula Fummey, Veterans for Independence, Denis Curran
3pm – 4pm: Brian Smith, Green Party speaker, Lindsay Jarrett, SNP Cllr David Baird, Lorna Farrell, Indy Girl
4 – 5pm: Martin Compston, Bob Thomson, Angela McCormack, Catriona McCreath, Tommy Sheridan
COMPERE 12 -3pm Tommy Sheridan
3 – 5pm Janey Godley
Well Dundee voted 57% YES and I was through there so, mnerrrr 🙂
Looking forward to hope over fear tomorrow. Dennis Curran from Loaves n Fishes food bank speaking, true hero. First heard him in front of a Holyrood comitee. YouTube his speech it’s first rate.
@Kevin Meina – Exactly what I was trying to say Kevin, don’t be put off posting on here or anywhere else we all have a voice and it don’t matter if you’re first or last the important thing is we all have a common goal.
@Husker I hope that you are feeling better after venting your frustation, thats the downside of the referendum losing, the upside before & after, the many great people you would meet & the many great people you have still to meet,& Wingers/Yessers give that lift to the spirit,drink heartely my friend of the information on here you will be all the wiser for the next time.
Caz-M I will be at the Square at about 11am Counting House side see you there.
Talking of club membership – will the hairy string be flying above new wingers tomorrow? (Natasha honey – you ain’t seen nothin’ yet)
@yesindyref2
One of the points I did make in that blog article previously but removed for safety, was that Devo-Max makes the UK unstable, and would inevitably lead to Independence.
This is going to be one of the main questions that no-one knows the answer to.
It could go either way.
I would guess that the London parties would be willing to devolve major powers if they actually believed it could make the union more secure. And this might actually be true. Enough people might be content with that.
Anyone writing a letter to the Smith commission might also like to point out the opposite:
If we DON’T get something close to Devo-Max, then the union is at risk.
We were promised significant new powers, ‘close to federalism’ or ‘Devo-SuperMax’.
If a second referendum comes around, then broken promises will be remembered. Income tax and a few welfare powers aren’t what most people consider significant new powers.
So if Scotland is let down, there will be lingering resentment and the likelihood of another referendum.
Any last minute bribes will then be meaningless.
The fact that the hardcore unionist vote is gradually dying off won’t be lost on them either.
@Cadogan Enright at 10.02 pm
here’s the irish minister’s press release about the new visa scheme.
Reading between the lines it seems ireland has been thinking about this (or some other similoar/ suitable scheme) since about 2011.
See what you think
link to inis.gov.ie
@Cadogan Enright Maybee,s we should be pushing for answers by E Mailing our SNP MSPs, we cant be twiddling out thumbs for the next couple of months. I have said it many times we cant lose the Grassrooters neither can the political parties,we need to be active in all sphere’s of this campain.
Snode1965: Dennis Curran from Loaves n Fishes food bank speaking, true hero.
For what he does I guess he is, but he thought the Salmond-Darling debate was crap, a ‘disgrace.’ And he was under the impression no side had produced a balance sheet. He was way wrong on that point, utterly blinkered.
This, you will realise, is the same man who rightly argues the poor and hungry cannot eat a balance sheet.
@Nana Smith says: 11 October, 2014 at 6:08 pm:
“Henry McLeish: More Scots powers could lead to break-up of UK”.
Well! Nana Smith, in case you have not yet realised it, Henry McLeish, was never in any danger of, “Coming Over”, to the independence side. Henry was quietly sitting there playing the Westminster Establishment’s, “Joker Card”, and remains a firm, “Better Together”, hard working member.
Henry knows, just as well as I do, that the big picture is, as it always has been exactly what that numptie up there /|\ in the cartoon inadvertantly blurted out being far too stupid to realise he was giving the game away. The game I’ve been warning about for what seems like forever.
The game that is so out in the open the YES movement cannot see it for looking at it. The game The Establishment has always played. They are closer to their goal than ever before for is not Westminster already the de facto parliament of England?
Remember what Mundell said, : –
“The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England, as The United Kingdom”.
That is how The Establishment sees things. As you will too if you open your eyes. Since Westminster took the setup agreed by the only two Kingdoms then in existance in the British Isles and agreed The Treaty of Union they have sought to continue their aims for the England to become the master race.
That’s what British History has been doing since the Anglo Saxon tribes were invited to Britain by the Southern Britons. Thus began the Kingdom of England that has attempted to expand ever since. So when Westminster got the chance to change the terms of the bipartite, “The Treaty of Union”, they grabbed it with both hands.
Their chance came from the ever increasing pressure for independence from the other three non-English countries that the two kingdoms contained. Ireland had already partitioned and has been at war with itself ever since. Wales waxes and wanes her independence claims and Scotland has been moving that way since before 1706/7.
Devolution presented an opportunity not to be missed and The Establishment grabbed it in both hands. Now any fair and honest government would have made efforts to be even handed but The Establishment saw its chance. They could have split the two Kingdoms up and had a real United Kingdom Federal Government but that would mean regionalism for the three country Kingdom of England. So instead of either a two Kingdom federation or even a four country federation and regionalism for England they chose to make Westminster the de facto Parliament of England.
Look at the facts : –
533 members elected from English constituencies: 59 elected from Scotland: 40 elected from Wales and 18 elected from N.I.
533 members elected from England but no parliament of England and thus Westminster becomes the de facto Parliament of England with no, (elected as such), members of the Parliament of England
England gets funded as, “The United Kingdom”, directly from the Treasury.
Westminster runs England’s domestic matters as The United Kingdom but accounts for the other countries by little additions to the bills it passes as United Kingdom Legislation. Furthermore it not only decides the level of the other countries block grants but it has tied those block grants to English funding by Barnett Consequentials.
So we have 533 English Members wearing two hats and 59+40+18=117, others obviously outvoted by Englanders by 533-117=416 of a majority of two hat wearing Englanders.
The reality is a de facto parliament of the country of England ruling over the other three subservient countries with an iron fist and Henry McLeish knows that full well and has no intention of ever doing other than side with the Establishment.
Sicnna paircel o rogues in ae nation.
I updated my blog with information pertaining to the Triple Lock Mechanism. Worth a read.
Triple Lock Pension protection provides a safety mechanism that the state pension, (£144 weekly at April 2016) would increase annually by the highest of; average earnings, inflation or 2.5%. It is anticipated the government will not commit to applying the, “triple lock” safety mechanism and will limit any increase of pension to average earning. Assuming an average earnings of 1% this would result in pensioners losing approximately £600 – a – year.
Over 15 years the total loss would exceed £9k. It is just possible the government might decide to impose no uprating of pensions on the basis that the Nation could not afford an increase in which case the annual and 15 year accrued total loss would rise further. The omens are not good for UK pensioners post 2016
link to caltonjock.com
Ian Brotherhood
If it’s any consolation, Donohue goes with a 7.5% point lead to SNP, the current poll of polls lead is 13.6%
Sadly my MP Katy Clark goes with a 2.5% lead, I say sadly because she’s one of the few decent Lab MPs, and active in the constituency too. Perhaps she can be persuaded to defect 😉 She is a rebel after all.
@Robert Peffers
Well Robert if you look at my reply to Croompenstein at 6.24pm you will see what I think of McLeish.
Robert Peffers honey – I’m always impressed by your length.
Onwards
Yes, exactly. If Smith comes up with next to nothing, then promises won’t impress anyone next referendum, everyone will know it’s jam tomorrow from an empty jar.
My submission was a little different. I pointed out that whatever was come up with should be coherent and shouldn’t damage Scotland. And that perhaps the best way was to start from Devo-Max and work out exactly what it was, without anyone agreeing to it at that stage.
And then work backwards to come up with 3 or 4 other packages with the same rules. Then and only then, to start arguing which package to go for.
I personally don’t think there is any pacakge short of Devo-Max which wouldn’t potentially damage Scotland, as taxes and revenues need to balance each other, when one’s up, another’s down. I hope they go for it …
@Paula Rose the Curly Hairy String will be in attendance,ah hope that perm worked tae put the curl back in.
@Robert Peffers
By the way Robert, my eyes have been open for a long time.
Just because I provided a link doesn’t mean I agree with anything the man has said.
@Grouse Beater says: 11 October, 2014 at 9:01 pm:
“I agree. Intimidation. Almost as bad as that meted out by the British Establishment.”
Whadda yah mean, “as bad as the British Establishment”?
First of, it is not, “The British”, Establishment it is the Westminster Establishment and second of all those knuckledraggers are already part of the Westminster Establishment.
Remember we YESSERS are fighting to prevent there ever being a British Establishment. They do not, as yet, own Britain.
Sunday Herald front page;
link to twitter.com
The Sunday Herald editorial: this paper is determined to get the best deal on more powers for Scotland – and the people must have their say
@yesindyref2 –
‘If it’s any consolation, Donohue goes with a 7.5% point lead to SNP, the current poll of polls lead is 13.6%
That is consolation, because it’s achievable. I hadn’t even bothered to crunch any numbers, so – sincere thanks.
And I’m sorry about Katy Clark too, but…?
‘All’s fair in love and war’, aw that stuff.
They both have to go – they and their SLab comrades can spend the rest of their lives blaming one another, but the fact is, they got in bed with the Tories, thereby jettisoning whatever credibility they had.
Hell mend them.
Oh that hairy string (giggle) Ronnie honey – you are the best for hugs and cuddles xx
Ronnie
Badges are all polished up, flags ready, George SQ here we come. I hope our friends from RT TV are there again.
Mmm, new name for YES.
How about DM+YES as in Devo-Max + Indy? or FedYES? Includes LibDem supporters who voted about 40% YES anyway I think. Only problem is it excludes those who want to scrap Holyrood (maybe 8%) and those who want the status quo (maybe only 8% as well). Not a problem, I think.
It leaves those who don’t want Devo-Max, but want some more powers, but I’m not convinced they’ll stay that way for long, and I think there are some straight hate Holyrood / hate SNP people hiding amongst them, from postings I’ve seen.
BE HAPPY ABOUT UKIP – the more unionist parties there are to split their vote the better in a FPTP election – when are the SNP going to announce how the are going to work with their YES Alliance allies? IE to ensure a single candidate in all remaining 53 unionist constituencies and how they are going to organise the 2016 elections – the YES coalition is waiting to hear in every town and village
@Kenny says: 11 October, 2014 at 9:32 pm:
“Here’s an idea. How would you like to see as cabinet ministers when we get independence?
You missed out at least one very honest and capable elected member – A certain Mr. Hosie is one of the most honest and capable elected members I know.
A federal UK is just not feasible – because of the population imbalance and because federalism requires a constitution which totally alien to the UK.
It is quite clear that the Union as we know it,is incompatible with devo max for scotland, Ni and wales and maybe other english regions.
please have a look at these two posts which explore the issues.
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Cadogan Enright
Fairly soon I would think. The SNP Annual Conference is from 13-15th November and then we will know more.
Grouse Beater: are you for real? I do not know how many hours of your life are spent helping the disadvantaged in this country, but to ridicule this mans freedom of political expression, because it questions yours is beyond the pale !!!
Thanks Marcia 🙂
Cadogan Enright 11.33pm
“BE HAPPY ABOUT UKIP”,
I have been saying that all along about UKIP, maybe not the way you have wrote it, but along the same lines.
Why would you want to stop another Unionist Party joining the scramble for Unionist votes.
Let them destroy each other, and the SNP/Indy candidate will walk away with the big prize.
@ yesindyref2 (and Ian)
I think you may have misunderstood the results of the 2010 general election in Central Ayrshire.
The SNP improved its share of the vote by 7.5% over their 2005 result.
But, alas, Donohoe (whom I regard as having zero redeeming features since he described the travelling community as a “scourge on humanity”) gained 47.7% of the vote, the Tories were second on 20.4%, and the SNP third with 19%. He’s beatable, but it will be tough.
@Paula Rose says:11 October, 2014 at 9:40 pm:
” … we are not 45%, we are Scotland and we will all be independent thinkers one day soon.”
Just for you, Young Lady, here’s one my old Granny told me when I was around three years old, (a very long time ago) : –
The Butterfly has wings of gold
The Firefly wings of flame.
The puir wee flech haes nane ava
But gets there jist the same.
(First two lines in very best pan loaf English and the last two in braid Lallans).
So, just as the poor wee flea cannot fly on heigh, our wee Scotland will get there just the same and will do so without the need of a parachute – just in case.
Not sure what to make of all the FB and Twitter controversy of tomorrow’s rally. Its being stirred up by that link up above from A Thousand Flowers blog, which is really full of bile about Sheridan. Whatever – its certainly stirring up the long knives…. This is a link to the charities newsletter also implying some shady things
link to thirdforcenews.org.uk
I’m still watching honeys –
@crazycat –
If we can get everyone in Donohue’s constituency to watch this?
Sorted…
link to youtube.com
Thanks to Robert Peffers for an excellent analysis.
England gets funded as, “The United Kingdom”, directly from the Treasury.
Westminster runs England’s domestic matters as The United Kingdom but accounts for the other countries by little additions to the bills it passes as United Kingdom Legislation. Furthermore it not only decides the level of the other countries block grants but it has tied those block grants to English funding by Barnett Consequential.
So we have 533 English Members wearing two hats and 59+40+18=117, others obviously outvoted by Englanders by 533-117=416 of a majority of two hat wearing Englanders.
The reality is a de facto parliament of the country of England ruling over the other three subservient countries with an iron fist
Re the Sunday Herald – I don’t like the look of that article on a ‘radical’ new development for labour calling themselves ‘independent’ and ‘never’ making a deal with the tories again.
I will buy theHerald tomorrow but if they think we will fall for a ‘new’ Laboutr they can think again.
We must not allow the thought that ‘Labour have returned to their roots’ to take hold cos that will be a lie
Wow! 232 comments all about my cartoon? Great. Can’t wait to read them all …
From Working Class Man
Retweeted sunday herald (@newsundayherald):
New movement, the Scottish Left Project – founded by @Radical_Indy and @NaeFear – aims to win seats for socialists at Holyrood 2016 election
Also, in the Herald tomorrow, Alex Salmond calls on police to probe the RBS leak
Robert Peffers honey – “young lady” such bliss my dear man xx
I’ve just had a bizarre idea. I know that North Korea is very short of funds. I wonder if we could crowdfund the purchase from them of one of the machines they use to jam the BBC signal? Would it have to be stationed near the border? Could it not be at sea or hidden in any number of lochs or up one of our copious mountains? They would never find it — and, by the time they did, the NO campaign would have well and truly lost, because without the BBC Pravda bias it is nothing!
@ Chris Cairns – unfortunately doll we all went a bit O/T but be assured you are an absolute dreamboat xx
@ Ian
“Any feedback is welcome”?
Hmm…..
Paula Rose says: 11 October, 2014 at 11:11 pm:
“I’m always impressed by your length”.
As the art mistress said to the gardiner in the potting shed after dark.
Or, to put it another way – some things cannot be acomplished well, without going to greater lenths.
:-))
@Valerie – The Hope Over Fear event is based primarily around Sheridan
I dunno what there angle is Valerie but I am certain that this is not the case. I and all of my friends are attending to show our solidarity with the dream of independence which goes beyond any individual but any one making money from our struggle should be condemned.
@Grouse Beater 10.08
Well said Sir. Conditioning us into submission and acceptance – which is what the BBC/MSM are engaged in doing – ain’t going to happen.
I and 6 others will be in George Square tomorrow – in free sovereign Scottish Glasgow – to show the bastards we can’t be beaten.
@crazycat –
Indeed.
I suspect that much of it never reaches his office, and ends up where it rightly belongs i.e. in landfill.
crazycat
I’m jut going by electoral calculus, and the overall percentages for Scotland, i.e. SNP ahead of Labour by 7.5% points, shows Donohue out. The percentages for the constituency would be Labour 37.84%, Nat 38.18%.
Any event in our demand for the best for all of the people of Britain is determined by us the many, soon there will be a few who disagree. We are more than the 45 chums.
@Croompenstein – yes, and I posted the days speakers up further – a really good mix of people it seems. Just a bit concerned that Tommy haters seem to be taking to muck raking big time, due to his higher profile at the moment. I think we all feel resentful that anything might detract or sully the Yes movement.
I’m sitting on the fence at the moment concerning the rumour mill stuff. Hope to go into Glasgow for a bit tomorrow 🙂
Has Tommy been a naughty boy? I’m sure he will man up and earn our respect.
@ yesindyref2
Ah; it was I who misunderstood you – apologies.
It was just coincidence that the 7.5% figure also featured in the chart of the 2010 result that I was looking at!
I do wonder though, for this particular constituency, what the influence of the relatively high Tory vote (presumably in northern Ayr, and Prestwick, mostly) would be – would they vote for BD if they thought he was at risk?
A lot of his constituency activists and office bearers left the party over Iraq, but he still managed to win the next two elections comfortably. I’ve heard since that his remaining activist base is in single figures (not sure I believe that, though – that would near enough reduce it to the sitting councillors) and certainly his office looks rather miserable from the outside, with a very faded red and yellow Vote Labour poster drooping in one corner of the side window. I live in hope.
@Paula Rose says: 12 October, 2014 at 12:09 am:
Robert Peffers honey – “young lady” such bliss my dear man xx
As a line in an old Lonnie Donegan song went, (My Old Dad’s A Dustman), “and when you get to my age, it helps to pass the time”.
Thanks to all those who replied and the messages of support is much appreciated.
@Paula Rose says: 12 October, 2014 at 12:09 am:
“Robert Peffers honey – “young lady” such bliss my dear man xx”
Arrrgh! I posted a YouTube link again and forgot to dock it. Here we go again :-
As an old Lonie Donegan song went, (My Old Man’s A Dustman), “When you get to my age it helps to pass the time”.
youtube.com/watch?v=Y7GeZ3YmONw
Something stylish Robert honey – suits you…
link to youtube.com
@Chris Cairns says:12 October, 2014 at 12:09 am:
“Wow! 232 comments all about my cartoon? Great. Can’t wait to read them all …”
Sorry, Chris – we do tend to wander O/T but it all stems from your great work. BTW: Could you also post the link with the cartoons to your book of cartoons. Some of us, (well me at least), are skint ATM, but do want to buy.
@crazycat –
When Donohue walked into the ‘cafe’ at The Citadel, Ayr, maybe 2-ish in the morning, when the first results were starting to filter in?
He couldn’t have looked more like a character from Goodfellas if he’d tried. He had his hingers-on, some of whom were plainly the worse for wear, but the general vibe from him and his entourage was pure gallusness.
I don’t want to overstate this – there was no overt baiting, no finger-pointing or willy-waving, but the general vibe about BD and his entourage was plain – ‘we still own this fucking joint’.
They camped themselves in a rear section of the café, where they didn’t have to view the main screen, and had several smaller screens to see the unfolding news. Their celebratory whooping and hollering increased as the results came in – Donohue’s distinctive cry was ‘o-ho-hooooh!!’, and it became louder with every result.
When it was announced that the Glasgow result was due, he made some remark about ‘how the Catholics went’, but that was greeted with laughter by his colleagues – by that time, we all knew the result, and ‘Glasgow’ didn’t even matter.
It beggars belief that we are talking of these Labour troughers as probable vote winners.
It’s either the burden of a corrupt system that is seriously backed up by a 100% media propaganda machine – or, we really do, as a people, have zips up the back of our heads.
Let’s update the target seats and watch their media’s antics pouring out – but one big question here – there are 53 seats excepting those already held by the SNP. Is the YES Alliance ready to field 53 prospective MPs with a realistic chance to make a good fist of it for the GE and how many could really take a Westminster seat??
I see the Scotlandshire guys have captured a pic of Will Podmore with his unionist pals
link to tinyurl.com
Kenny says: 12 October, 2014 at 12:11 am:
“I’ve just had a bizarre idea. I know that North Korea is very short of funds. I wonder if we could crowdfund the purchase from them of one of the machines they use to jam the BBC signal?”
Naw! To work a jamming device has to put out a bigger signal on the same frequency, (wavelength), as the signal being jammed. Not only that but the public get upset not getting their favourite shows.
Croompenstein honey – rofl xx
@ Ian
Not surprised by that. My dear MP was a little more circumspect, but her entourage was pretty obnoxious – with a few exceptions. More interesting was the lone Tory woman, who maybe hadn’t got the memo – her face was tripping her for most of the night, until the result was beyond doubt and she suddenly cheered up. Perhaps they weren’t being sufficiently inclusive in their celebrations and she felt rejected.
Robert honey – relax doll xx
Grousebeater
Trying to jot some stuff down about broadcasting for the submission to the SC. I know you’ve had experience of the BBC so do you know if there is an Alpha fund for Scotland aimed at ‘ encouraging pitches from Scottish producers ‘ like in Wales?
Thanks
Grouse Beater says @ 11 October, 2014 at 10:08 pm
Another Pop-Up Yes Post.
I’ve lost count of the number of ‘Yes’ voters popping up on this site for the first time since the plebiscite telling the rest of us to feel proud, but to accept defeat and ‘move on.’
Yes this is the first time I have been on this site. However during the campaign I had heard of this site but didn’t see the point of joining as it was like preaching to the converted and I am of the persuasion of taking the argument to the enemies door so to speak which is why I had commented on on the Guardian under Cheeky_Chippy_Jock and SinnAonaichte and a few others between them. I had used a number of monickers because I had got to the point where I got totally burned out and pissed myself but eventually came back because I cared far too much.
As to your comment returning to playing dominoes and bowls, sorry I don’t buy that. During the campaign the Mad Rev Chalmers and others said the referendum was in danger of splitting Scottish society. That is incorrect, the fault lines were already there and are still here so nobody is going to be ‘returning to playing dominoes and bowls’. The intensity that was seen in the campaign may be gone but the reasons why independence is needed is still here and no matter how tired, how scunnered, how burned out, how pissed off we may feel, we have to face up to these issues and deal with them whether we like it or not. I remember a saying, think it was from a John Wayne film, True Grit is getting back on your horse even if you can’t face doing it.
I mentioned about the need to move on. As I mentioned there is fault lines that is still here that existed before the referendum. You mentioned some of them. I said I have moved on but I haven’t forgiven or forgotten what has happened. I know these two things are opposites and it is hard to reconcile the two. I don’t have the answers for this. No matter how you look at it, at the end of the day, the selfsame elite that exerted all its might to subvert the referendum campaign is doing all it can to preserve its own power and in doing so worsens the lives of ordinary folk.
The only thing I do know is to fight one war at at time and not play into the elites hand which is the tried and trusted method of divide and conquer. In that way, it is best to focus on the future and try to lay the seeds for the next referendum and the best way to do that is keep what was achieved on the 19th alive and if that means a bit of tribalism then so be it.
@crazycat –
Isn’t it interesting that, even when they knew they’d won, most of them were still as greetin’-faced as before?
Husker honey – please come at the next Wings social – sorry love to not at.
anyone seen the new Yew choob video?
here it is!
link to youtube.com
I’ve re-blogged it here! link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Ian darling – still on the main thread but, you are such a gorgeous entity I’m still in awe at the size of your commitment.
@ Ian
Isn’t it supposed to be the case that if the wind changes while you’re making a face….
A few winds of change wouldn’t come amiss right enough.
crazycat
It was said before by some on wings, but I can’t see Tory voters voting Labour, or Labour voting Tory to keep out pro-indy / SNP candidates. Not with Westminster at stake. To them Scotland is unimportant, it’s the UK that matters.
Even one Tory or Labour MP could make the difference to the psrty that has the majority, even if not an overall majority. Both might think they have a chance of forming a working government with even UKIP, or the SNP! Plus what few remaining LibDems there might be in the UK.
I guess it could be up to the SNP though to make appropriate noises to show that though it makes them strong for Indy, they wouldn’t disrupt Westminster in general.
@crazycat –
Ha!
Ye’re right.
As things stand? I will encourage my weans (both teenaged) to ‘travel’ at the earliest opportunity, and make the best of whatever chances they get.
Who knows? They may see the world for a few years, and come back to an independent Scotland?
Stranger things have happened.
@Husker – the fault lines were already there and are still here so nobody is going to be ‘returning to playing dominoes and bowls’.
Totally agree husker the referendum has shone a light on us and it’s up to us all to take it forward. The 19th in George Square will live long in infamy and the ref flushed it out for us all to see so pretending it isn’t there is no longer an option.
@ yesindyref2
The 2015 general election is going to be interesting – anyway, even without the Scottish contribution – I don’t think polling, most of which is then fed into calculators using Uniform National Swing, is as likely to give an accurate result as in the past.
Nobody really knows whether the LibDems will continue their dramatic decline, or whether they will hold on in many of their existing seats and do even worse elsewhere (to achieve the expected overall percentage). They’ve lost deposits in almost every by-election, but hung onto the one seat they were defending.
Neither does anyone know what the UKIP effect will be, for all that people like to extrapolate from by-elections – which allow safe protest votes without changing the identity of the government.
So it could be anything from business as usual, with First Past the Post getting even more untenable, to a major shift in the make-up of the House of Commons.
I agree with all the points you made above.
When food appears in our house
or dog ‘nose’ about it right away.
If any of us has some food, like crisps,
and try to hide it from the dog
while telling him to go away
he just remains resolutely in front of whoever it is
and pays no attention.
All the while he relies on his nose.
He ‘nose’ his nose is telling him the truth
even though his owner is telling him differently.
In the face of a bare faced lie, he doesn’t budge.
I’m sure all you dog owners know what I’m on about.
If you don’t have a dog, please take my word for it.
.
If only those who believed all the lies from Darling &
Brown, Cameron & Osborne, the Alexanders etc etc,
had used their nose instead of their ears.
They would have smelled a rat – and we would all be living
in a different world.
.
A dog is a man’s best friend
but a dog’s best friend is his nose.
And not only because he can smell food with it,
but also because he can smell crap.
That’s the stuff the BBC & ITV, and all the papers – and
all Unionist politicians dish out to the public every day.
.
Here’s hoping lots of those No voters can clear their
blocked noses before the General Election in May 2015.
.
Karen Dunbar may become a new role model for the Indy
Alliance.
BTW, has Karen got a dug – not that she needs wan like.
BTW, if Ruth Davidson knew about the Postal Votes
and John McTernan knew about them,
then David Cameron knew about them too.
I wonder what else he knew.
Ian Brotherhood
Yes was happy, fun and humorous.
No was nasty, angry and sad.
When NO won, they didn’t have a clue what to do, so now they’re still angry on the forums, nasty to whoever they can find, and sad when nobody pays any attention.
If we all just ignored them politely or laughed, they’d probably turn on each other and self-destruct. Boooom!
I’ve got a dug..she mad..
link to tinypic.com
crazycat
I totally agree about the predictors, they may or may not be relevant any more. And as scot goes pop says, the SNP poll boosts could just be a bounce from the referendum.
I guess it’s up to all of us to keep the fires burning, the pot stirred, the rallies going whoever organises them (who cares it’s YES supporters going there), and my ham sandwich made from toast I forgot for a few minutes, lightly buttered with a slice of ham and microwaved for 30 secs, served with a mug of tea.
Strange, but totally edible!
link to snp.org
Lab and Tory councillors vote against ‘the Vow’
Fri, 10/10/2014 – 13:27
The SNP is today highlighting Labour and Tory councillors in Stirling council who have voted against the Vow on “extensive new powers” for the Scottish Parliament, which was signed by David Cameron and the other Westminster leaders days before the referendum.
The move by the Lab-Tory coalition at last night’s meeting of Stirling Council to vote down SNP councillors Graham Houston and Scott Farmer’s motion – which noted acceptance of the result of the referendum, welcomed the establishment of the Smith Commission and called for the council to encourage community engagement for the delivery of new powers – has been described as “deeply disappointing” by local SNP MSP Bruce Crawford.
Labour and Tory councillors voted through their own partisan motion – with no specific mention of the Vow, which indicates that the ‘principle’ set out by Glasgow Labour MP Willie Bain – that Labour will not vote for SNP motions – seems to be alive and well in Scottish local government. Mr Crawford said that the people of Stirling deserved better than this.
He said:
“It is deeply disappointing that Labour and Tory councillors decided to be so partisan in their approach to this sensible and forward looking motion on the Vow and the delivery of extensive new powers for Scotland.
“As stated in the motion, the SNP accept the referendum result and are keen to move on, it’s just a shame that the Westminster parties are so entrenched in their position and risk stalling progress. This is the ridiculous ‘Bain principle’ in action, where Labour refuse to vote for any motions proposed by the SNP – in this case along with their Tory coalition partners in Stirling.
Don’t you just love those Labour Councillors whose hatred of the SNP and Independence is so all consuming that they
have a policy of NEVER voting for any motion put forward by SNP Councillors.
So people living in SNP Wards have no effective representation in Local Councils where Labour are dominant.
That should be challenged in a Court of Law.
Brilliant quote from the Scotsman, though it is SoS which is sttrangely different, almost a Sunday herald at times:
WHEN Dick Tuck ran for the California State Senate in 1966, he came third out of eight candidates, polled 5211 votes and earned a place in the dictionary of political quotations with a concession speech as brief as it was honest: “The people have spoken, the bastards.”
Mmm, that strange microwaved almost stale toast toastie was gorgeous, maybe I should patent it.
[…] Tags: cartoons, Chris CairnsCategory scottish politics, uk politics Trackback: trackback from your own site. […]
Early morning programme on the BBC raking over the coals of the campaign,
comes up with this revolting creature,
“The notion that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the fifth largest economy in the world should fly to Scotland to entreat with Alex Salmond as if he were the potentate of a foreign nation was nauseating for any British person to watch”.
John Mcternan
I’ll just put that here.
Husker: Yes, this is the first time I have posted on this site.
Big surprise.
All you have to say is negative. It shows no understanding of what the Referendum stood for, historically illiterate, a wilful dismissal of brutal unionist tactics, and a total ignorance of human nature – in other words, waffle.
Nothing to learn there.
Ian: Isn’t it interesting that, even when they’d won, most were still as greetin’-faced as before?
Chuckle!
Husker: nobody is going to be ‘returning to playing dominoes and bowls’.
Which is exactly what I said! Dear me. You appropriate the remark and reverse your opinion. Get your own phrases!
I hope its great turn out in George Square today guys, unfortunately I work on Sundays so obviously I wont be there 🙁
But I will be there in spirit. 🙂
btw Croompenstien
that a nice wee boxer you have there, I’m sure Ollie (my daughters huge boxer) would love to meet her. 🙂
Molly: you’ve had experience of the BBC so do you know if there is an Alpha fund for Scotland aimed at ‘encouraging pitches from Scottish producers‘ like in Wales?
If BBC Scotland has a fund it will be highly selective, probably aimed at new recruits fresh from college. Check their ‘guide to producers’ website. Most broadcasters expect the initial pitch to arrive free of charge and based on their annual or bi-annual programme needs usually announced on their commissioning site. Creative Scotland has incentive funds, if you don’t mind wading through a welter of bureacracy.
McTernan Piss-Poor Propagandist: The notion that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the fifth largest economy in the world should fly to Scotland to entreat with Alex Salmond as if he were the potentate of a foreign nation was nauseating
In expectation of favours never bestowed, the fool speaks the colonial cliches his masters pay him to utter.
I wish someone in Dundee would organise a Yes rally.
Mealer
I am sure Tommy Sheridan and the rest of his gang would be only to glad to come up to Dundee or any other city/town. I agree with you, take the raodshow to all the major towns, Fort William for instance.
Meantime Mealer, if you can, jump on the 10 o’clock train to Queen St and join the biggest YES rally since Calton Hill. Hopefully see you there.
going on the latest survation polls this makes excellent reading
link to electoralcalculus.co.uk
@John King
McTernan still spreading the love eh?
Anyone feel like voting Labour at the upcoming GE? Anyone feel like reconciliation, big hugs and warm handshakes with the likes of McTernan and everything he embodies?
Mind you a useful intervention on his part. The more he speaks the more he reminds everyone what we vote against.
Read this recently somewhere but it seems apt: “Listen carefully to how someone speaks about other people to you. This is how they will speak about you to other people.”
@ survation poll
Revenge is sweet
“Brown urges Tories to get radical on Devolution”
Headline in newspapers.
Has the former Prime Minister spoken to his colleagues in the Labour Party? Does he not realise Labours offering is the worst of the bunch?
Of course the headline isn’t aimed at us, it’s for the Daily Record reader. It’s a smokescreen. So its up to us to expose this blatant attempt to cover up Labours Piss poor submission.
I see also that STUC and others calling for Civic involvement in Smith commission. This makes Labours rejection of SNP motion to Stirling Council look even more stupid. Anne McGuire MP retiring. Just as well, her seat in Stirling must be on a shoogly nail.
here is the poll here from survation.
Table 15 on page 20
link to survation.com
Caz m,
I’ve got another meeting this afternoon.Hope you all have a great day.
Ken500
Do you have a link to the Survation poll?
Project fear still working hard as in Gordon Brown today
“The SNP plan for fiscal autonomy would mean no transfers of resources within the UK, ending UK pensions, ending UK help for Scots when unemployed, ending UK support for Scottish health and education – all of which Scots on 18 September voted to keep. It would also end the Barnett formula to which all pro-devolution parties have committed. Their plan adds up to separation by another route.”
Ending UK help for Scots when unemployed’s rather vote no scary. So much for THE VOW.
Here in England, Scottish Devo completely forgotten, UKIP boosts everywhere, Andrew Marr called one of the most trusted men in UK politics by guest, kicks off a very another creepy BBC rules UKOK Sunday as future PM Bojo gets usual fluff job by Marr. It’s a Tory boy world.
Grouse Beater @ 12 October, 2014 at 6:16 am
Hmmm, I have no understanding of what the Referendum stood for, I’m historically illiterate, I’m ignorant of brutal unionist tactics, totally ignorant of human nature and I’m talking waffle? You know all this about me from a few comments I’ve posted via an anonymous login to this site?
I freely admit that I’m not the best at expressing what I mean when writing. People have written more lucid and coherent posts than I have. When I’m talking about moving on, I don’t mean it like the unionist rubbish that I’ve to know my place and just ignore what happened.
By moving on, I mean to change tactics, adapt and go at it from a different angle. I’m not getting at you personally but I’ve read a few of your comments and you come across and angry and confrontational. Yes you have right to be angry as we all are but that is playing in their hands. Firstly they portray these independence supporters as bitter, divisive individuals and secondly, they just wait it out with their 3 parties getting elected and see that anger caused by the referendum turn into impotence and hopelessness.
What am I going to do next? I had argued for independence over the last 4 years online and offline with friends, work colleagues and family. The thing I noticed was that social media played a big part in getting through to people who weren’t interested in politics. While I say I’m a bit tech savvy I haven’t touched the social media side so I’m going to look into that.
I may not be very good at that as well but as long as I can keep getting the message out and hopefully somebody picks up what I am trying to say, improve it and get to a wider audience. The thing I liked about the campaign was the DIY activist approach where people did their own thing and other people feed of it and it became viral. At this stage, I think that is the way to go.
That is the only thing I know what to do for the moment unless maybe you can suggest otherwise?
Marr says next week he has EU President Barosso back on who said last time it would be impossible for Scotland to be allowed in the EU if we voted Yes. So wonder what his UKOK!BBC reward is. UKOK ruled by BBC also had Marr explain to the prez why he thought Scotland wouldn’t get into Europe, completely trashing any shred of BBC neutrality in anything once again and thanks for that EU democracy for all support/horse shit dear EU.
History written by winners.
@ survation poll
Let’s hope the number’s come to fruition in the westminster elections next year.
Just away down to get my Sunday Herald, I’m actually enjoying my new newspaper free world( Sunday Herald apart), and denying ASDA my monthly shopping cash, just disappointed I didn’t have any accounts with RBS that I couldn’t go in and transfer out, but I suppose we can’t have it all!!
heedtracker says:
Gordon Brown today
“The SNP plan for fiscal autonomy would mean no transfers of resources within the UK, ending UK pensions, ending UK help for Scots when unemployed, ending UK support for Scottish health and education – all of which Scots on 18 September voted to keep.”
Utter lies!
45% voted for FFA and more with a Yes vote.
10% at least, probably more, voted No explicitly as a result of the Vow
Some one definite thing we can conclude from the 18 sept vote was we voted NOT to keep transfers of resources with the UK!
@Heedtracker
So not home rule, not devo max then from Mr Broon?
Who knew?
So his definition of devo max, near federalism and home rule is…
… bollox?
I want to just give a big thumbs up to Shuggy and his posts yesterday. Just been reading through the comments.
Some people here would do well to take more intellectual perspectives on board and drop the chest-throwing, emo bullshit.
We grow by being inclusive. Marginalizing people when your trying to grow your movement…is…well, there isnt a polite way to say just how utterly, jaw droppingly stupid that is so i wont say it.
@Robert Peffers Thanks but I’m afraid there’s no book of cartoons as yet. Publishers were less than enthused before the vote (they need a long lead in time for such things) and are presumably even less enthused now it was Naw. The crowd-funding option (a la Greg Moodie) is always there but I’m working on a wee collaboration that might bear fruit. I’ll keep youse posted.
CiF saves buying Herald and MacLiesh goes
“Henry Mcleish is in the Sunday Herald today saying don’t give the Scottish people more powers than you need too. Because they might become so succesful that they might decide to leave. That’s his arguement and he was a first minster of Scotland for fecks sake. Spoken like another red tory. He’s shit scared in case it all comes out the part he played when him and Blair gave away part of Scottish oil and gas waters to Westminster days before Blair left government.”
That’s the consensus in England. Take everything. Give them nothing, they voted to stay UKOK
Anybody else using PressReader to download today’s edition of the Sunday Herald?
I get an error message that it can no be downloaded because the price is ‘0’
Anybody else?
@ MacArthur, how are you?! THE VOW was aimed straight at people like my Mum and her friends who don’t really like politics but wanted to vote Yes. So now these people are beginning to realised that they have be lied to, defrauded, taken for mugs etc by Crash, BBC, P&J and co and they do not like it one bit.
With eight MPs, the Democratic Unionist Party hold the balance of power if neither Miliband nor Cameron win decisively.
Unionist told Guido that he thought a cut in corporation tax for companies in Northern Ireland was a done deal to compete with the lower taxes offered by Dublin.
Husker
the YES movement, through many months of passionate expression, contemplative reasoning, seeking truth, is non-violent.
our victory is in finding self-expression, truth, and peace.
we know we are right.
gandhi was very angry and confrontational, in fact he confronted state violence and violence of all descriptions.
see link to en.wikipedia.org
heaven’s here on earth.
Hang on a sec –
Gordon Brown calls on Scottish parties to back revenue plan
link to archive.today
Brown urges Tories to get radical on devolution
link to archive.today
Lord Smith:
“While it is right that all the parties will want to continue to put their case to the public it is vital that we respect and protect the integrity of the process we are now in. That is why I will be quick to intervene if I feel that anyone is undermining the work of the Commission or the cross-party talks.”
I’m about to alert the Good Lord to this blatant attempt to undermine the Commission’s work by a current Westminster MP and to press for his swift and unequivocal intervention as a matter of urgency.
Bud. Nipped. Hope.
O/T –
Delighted about the first major organised YES rally in our ‘greatest’ city for YES; Glasgow. (Pride doesn’t cover i)
So disappointed in the vote from our ‘nominal’ capital city where previous rallies were focussed. Edinburgers (YES voters excepted), need to get the message; if you dont want to be part of this movement then your tenure as our capital is likely to be exposed to more criticism. So lets be smart and steer clear, lets stick to and celebrate our successes in our YES Cities along with Dundee and YES areas like North Lanark / West Dumbartonshire and also the excellent Inverclyde result).
It is great to see one of the worlds great Antiestablishmentarians Naomi Wolf is speaking at the Hope over Fear rally .
Tommy Sheridan and Naomi Wolf on the same platform plus all the other great orators makes for a special day for freedom of speech and Democracy.
Cant wait to watch the Glasgow Rally on TV tonight … Doh!!!
hope over fear
link to new.livestream.com
@ Macart, sorry that MacArthur reply was via iPad ios 8 update which is not working at all. Apple destroys own product/reputation shock.
On the subject of Labour Cooncillors. Noticed we now have some officious little notices up in the Parks here in Dunfermline. One thing which we took notice of was that they cannot be used for political parades, demonstrations. They will allow these annoying Saturday Morning Commandos who drive us nuts, no letting the dog off for a run when they are around. Just a wee bit Stalinist in the notices I thought, how about getting some park wardens back then there will be less bottles lying around after the illegal consumption of Buckfast, eh?
@Chris Cairns says: 12 October, 2014 at 10:25 am:
“Thanks but I’m afraid there’s no book of cartoons as yet”.
Thank you, Chris. I thought I had seen a reference to a book, or perhaps it was just a link to where the cartoons could be accessed. I have to admit I’ve been in a spin for a while being overtaken by events. So I’ve not been paying as much attention as usual.
Your information may prompt some action among wingers to do something about it together. I’m not alone in being a Chris Cairns Cartoon Fan. We have WBBs so why not a WCC, (Wee Chris Cartoons), book?
Husker: I freely admit that I’m not the best at expressing what I mean when writing.
But that doesn’t stop you posting screeds.
Your first two posts are a litany of unthinking cliches amounting to nothing. The last, a few posts back, offers something of a real person behind the remarks. What annoyed me, (not angered) was the defeatist statement, ‘We have lost the argument.’
My country has been sold off a second time in its history. What we have lost is patience with banter, pleasantaries and slogans, and being told where we went wrong in a skewed Referendum the result now interpreted as finite.
We await crumbs from the UK Treasury table. The Treasury does not give away tax raising powers. Ever.
My blog: Grouse Beater on WordPress.
Anyone having problems watching the “Hope over Fear” rally on livestream? Does not seem to be going live when I tune into the site….
Been trying to watch the rally from Independence Square in Glasgow via livestream, but not seeing anything. Have signed up to the livestream but stll nowt. Anyone else having problems?
Chris Cairns draws the picture telling it like it is as ever. Brilliant nailing of mundane Mundell.
Not getting the rally on livestream,is anyone else getting it?
bookie, i’m not getting any transmission from indy live events from that link. Anyone got another link, it seems people are viewing it by the numbers on the page, but nothing is showing. All or any help appreciated 🙂
lorna
nope#meneither
Helena: Noticed we now have some officious little notices up in the Parks here in Dunfermline. One thing which we took notice of was that they cannot be used for political parades, demonstrations.
That’s how the British state ‘kettled’ Occupy sit-ins.
The right to protest and to congregate is being withdrawn by our elected representatives spurred on by their masters.
Lord Smith’s warning not to undermine. Wonder where he’s coming from with that?
Could be interpreted either way …. Warning Unionists not to back track on promises, warning pro-Indy to stop pushing for Indy-Lite?
There has been discussion of what Patrick Harvey said the other day. He has his own Green perspective. However, he did point out that it could just all be just another Unionist stitch up.
looking at selfies
a few 100 rather than 1000s
George Square looking very impressive. Just hope the rain stays off
There is something not right with the livestream for the Glasgow rally; the above website reference is correct, but for some reason it is not broadcasting.
@ Kenny. Same here. I sent txt message to Kevin, no reply yet.
Glasgow webcam
link to glasgow.gov.uk
Greens considering standing in all WM seats?
link to scottishgreens.org.uk
With first past the post, that will result in Labour retaining a more seats, sadly.
Don’t worry, folks, when they do get it up, you can watch recordings (like watching a pre-recorded video) and it will probably also be up on YouTube a bit later….
@David: at 10:21 am
Many thanks David. I just think it’s vital to understand the reason behind people’s voting decisions in order to persuade them to vote differently. It’s often dismissed as mindless party loyalty, racism, selfishness, etc. That’s just lazy labelling.
(That’s not to say “Hell scud them!” wasn’t an entirely understandable reaction in the immediate aftermath of the referendum result)
But I believe to understand someone’s mindset you have to climb right in there, no matter how unappealing the prospect might be – not to criticise their mental furniture but to help them rearrange it. And if anything needs clearing out, make sure you’re offering something better to replace it.
There’s another way of course, and I’m not entirely averse to it. Nick Project Fear’s tactics. There’s long been a negative culture in mainstream campaigning –
Vote for US – we’ll save you from THEM! THEY’LL do X, Y and Z to you – WE won’t!
But either way, you need to know your prospective ‘customers’ better before you can do business with them.
big mistake by greens using to stand all WM seats,wait till Scottish elections 2016
My best to all at George Square today, Stay safe, be proud and SING LOUD! You’ll make it great, and I’m with you in spirit.
Nor me 🙁
As lordy smith is ensconced in the establishment I would imagine the latter galamcennalath…almighty stitch-up underway. Whit’s new? (rhetorical)
To repeat: The UK Treasury does NOT give away powers. Ever.
That’s the same Treasury that illegally sent a press release to the media stating the RBS would move its brass plate south – a bank owned 80% by the people was warning the people who is boss.
When the UK Treasury is a band of thugs why would anybody vote to stay in the Union?
If the Greens did put up a candidate in all 59 seats, what could they possibly manage to get from it?
They’d lose a lot of money campaigning and probably deposits, apart from splitting the YES vote.
I don’t know if the rumours are true but it wouldn’t make sense unless it’s an ego trip because of the new membership.
Independence Live Events Independence Live Events
less than a minute ago
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1 View
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Streaming delayed
Apologies for the lack of a stream so far. We’re trying to contact our reporter at George Square. We’ll post an update as soon as we know more.
I see this morning there has been an attack on the New Scottish Statesman site. Seems we have still got them worried.
hope over fear link now working live
link to new.livestream.com
Grouse Beater, that is how I read it, I remember them not allowing the YES campaign to come in when there was no No Stall, this is now not going to be allowed as I read it, at all.
Propaganda in today’s Sunday Herald?
link to heraldscotland.com
In a wide-ranging interview the hugely successful Aberdeen-born singer-songwriter also criticised her fellow Scots, saying post independence referendum that they need to “put their hatred of the English aside and grow up just a little bit”.
link to heraldscotland.com
One senior SNP source said: “Some of us don’t really want an alternative Royal Family. We want a new Scotland based on meritocracy.”
link to heraldscotland.com
The mixed result has produced a bout of soul-searching within Scottish Labour on how to reconnect with supporters and produce a bold policy offering to voters.
link to heraldscotland.com
Addressing 400 activists at his party’s biggest-ever conference yesterday, the Glasgow MSP said it was vital to reach out to No voters and co-operate with others rather than focus on an increasingly meaningless dividing line.
In her book – “The_End of America:A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot”,
Naomi Wolf cites 10 steps a state needs to instigate to create what she terms, “closing societies”, (such as Hitler’s Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, and Stalin’s Russia).
I wonder just how many of these ten steps Wingers can identify in the Westminster Establishment of today?
1.Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
2.Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
3.Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
4.Set up an internal surveillance system.
5.Harass citizens’ groups.
6.Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
7.Target key individuals.
8.Control the press.
9.Treat all political dissidents as ("Tractor" - Ed)s.
10.Suspend the rule of law. (see notes).
Notes :–
(1) -‘The rule of law’, (or nomocracy) = a legal principle that states law should govern a nation, and not govern arbitrary decisions by individual government officials.
(2) – ‘Nomocracy’ = A political system under the sovereignty of rational laws and civic rights.
Be afraid Wingers, be very afraid.
In a wide-ranging interview the hugely successful Aberdeen-born singer-songwriter also criticised her fellow Scots, saying post independence referendum that they need to “put their hatred of the English aside and grow up just a little bit”. Annie Lennox
When you have lived outside Scotland for a long time your ear becomes desensitised to the hatred and scorn poured upon Scots and Scotland, and how much that is a process of control over the smaller nation.
Then again, if a singer with fans, the greater majority reside in England so best to pander to their prejudices.
PS: I heard her recent radio interview and it was a case of ‘me, myself’ and I, the first person singular from start to finish, with little if any wisdom in between.
@Scot Finlayson says: 12 October, 2014 at 11:47 am: “It is great to see one of the worlds great Antiestablishmentarians Naomi Wolf is speaking at the Hope over Fear rally.”
Scot Finlayson, see my comment at 12 Oct 01:12pm on Naomi Wolf’s works. It may interest you.
I see the Glasgow City Council Webcam overlooking George Square is also “down”……
PPS: One day Annie Lennox will discover she was patronised in England as the token Scot.
Glad to hear Patrick Harvie correcting the BBC (when do they not need correcting?) over calling John Finnie a defector.
John left the SNP over the NATO issue (a respectable point of principle in my view) some time ago. As an independent he is a free agent and isn’t defecting from anywhere. Patrick’s interviewer simply said “hmmm…OK” and quickly moved on.
BBC – still a shower of bastards 🙂
In my experience when someone’s argument is that the other side needs to “grow up” they don’t actually have much to say.
hopeoverfear livestream
#fail
guy was using his personal mobile
walofs
I’m sorry, but Annie Lennox was last relevant in about 1983, when most YES voters hadn’t even been born!
George Square web cam seems to be working OK, there are more people there now than at the kick off at 12. In fact it looks pretty busy
Naomi Wolf is a smart cookie, I hope her people were filming the event and we can listen to her later on YouTube.
Nae worries Heed, I got the gist. 😀
According to kevin Pringle of the SNP, on SKY this morning, Gordon Brown said (I kid you not);
“You cannot promise Scotland something on a Tuesday then change the offer the day after the referendum on the Friday”
Is Gordn Brown mentally ill? Seriously. He promised home rule/devo max , and a sttlement as close to federalism as possible, yet HIS OWN Labour party has just submitted the most ridiculous, trivial, devo nano non powers to the Smith commission.
Now, either Gordon Brown, is the biggest delusional bare faced liar in Scottish political history, or he is suffering from some kind of psychiatric problem. Seriously.
Yet the media just let him carry on uttering total lies over and over again.
As an aside, why is anybody buying the Sunday Herald? It funds the daily paper, to keep pumping out anti Scottish, anti independence, propaganda. Paying for Magnus Gardhams salary? No thanks.
Sadly, Annie Lennox seems deluded. I want independence because I utterly hate that my country is run by a parliament in another country. It is nothing to do with as she puts it ‘hating the English’. I just hate Westminster colonial rule of Scotland.
Lennox hasn’t lived in Scotland for the last forty years anyway. I’m sure it’s lovely for her in Califronia, or wherever.
Celebrities who know nothing about what has just happened in Scotland, really should shut the F up.
@Helena Brown says: 12 October, 2014 at 12:01 pm:
“On the subject of Labour Cooncillors. Noticed we now have some officious little notices up in the Parks here in Dunfermline.”
Typical of Dunfermline cooncil, Helena, see my comment at 12 Oct 01:12pm on Naomi Wolf’s works. It may interest you.
@HandandShrimp:
In fact, I am a bit disappointed. How many people are gathered there? 2,000? 3,000 maybe? I hoped the whole square would be filled up.
@Robert Louis:
Annie Lennox has probably wants to continue selling some records in England, just in case she has not earned enough money yet.
dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/shamed-politician-tommy-sheridan-faces-4424533
could someone archive this for me
the smear campaign against yes supporters continues
i hope tommy sues them for every penny they have got
@ schrodingers cat:
link to archive.today
@schrodingers cat archive won’t work for me so here’s the article…
Tommy Sheridan says rally will cost £3000 to stage
QUESTIONS have been raised over the funding of an independence rally featuring Tommy Sheridan after it was revealed donations are being sent to his home address.
Thousands are expected to attend the Hope over Fear demo in Glasgow’s George Square today to rally Yes supporters after their defeat in the referendum.
Sheridan yesterday released a line-up of speakers including actors Martin Compston and Paul Brannigan, feminist writer Naomi Wolf and SNP councillors.
The shamed politician, jailed in 2011 after being found guilty of lying under oath about visiting swingers’ clubs, has said hosting the event and paying for the hire of a PA and stage will cost around £3000.
Sheridan appealed for help to pay for the rally, asking for cheques to be made payable to an East Kilbride charity but to be sent to his address in Glasgow.
The charity are called Communities United, Promoting Inclusion, and are run by Solidarity council candidate and Sheridan pal John Park.
A Scottish Labour spokesman said: “There seems an odd arrangement. People will be wondering why a charity has now become a vehicle for Tommy Sheridan and that funding is being sent to his home.”
Park said the request for funding for the rally to be sent to the charity was because Hope over Fear did not have a bank account.
He said: “Any money donated to the rally and paid out will be accounted for. There is proper accounting of the money that is being donated..”
Livestream is working now
@ Schrodingers cat:
Sorry, that doesn’t work, it just leads to the silly questions “to keep the Daily Record free for all”. If I try to archive it after I’ve answered the questions, they still appear in the archived version instead of the article.
Maybe someone else knows how get round that.
Why do some people on here support Tommy Sheridan? He almost completely wrecked the SSP, the guy is another George Galloway imo.
@ Nana Smith
Good to know it wasn’t just me being dense! If it isn’t possible to archive articles which are accompanied by those questions, as more and more are, that’s a bit of a drag.
@ muttley79
I don’t feel that wanting someone to be treated fairly equates with “supporting” them. In my more charitable moments, I even want people like Gordon Brown to be treated fairly.
@crazycat
They don’t half annoy with those stupid questions. I only looked for Cat as he asked for it to be archived. It’s not a paper I read.
@ Nana Smith
I don’t read it either – I’ve never ever bought a copy and have only seen it in places like the laundrette. I also tried and failed to archive the article, and the questions seem to be the problem – local papers frequently have them, and it now seems that the Record does too. Rather a pest.
I’ve no idea how to estimate numbers, but going by the webcam and the tweeted photos, the half of the square nearest the Counting House is jam-packed (may be slightly more than half the area I think), while the half nearest the City Chambers is more sparsely populated but with a fair number of people milling about. Some people there seem to be taking refuge from the crush at the front.
For a controversial rally including some divisive speakers, this seems to me to be pretty good attendance. It may be yet another victim of over-optimism and hype. Bigging things up in advance, when unrealistic, has a habit of leading to disappointment with a perfectly decent actual happening.
Muttley I fear that the SSP were very quick to demonise Tommy SHeridan, in my eyes they are the ones who ruined the SSP. If Ian Brotherhood were leading the SSP and not Colin Fox, I may have considered them as a party, Ian I see as decent human being, his Party not so much.
Robert Peffers, yes read your piece on Naomi Wolf, interesting. I have come to the conclusion that the US is very badly served by their democratic process and it has spread here, off the feet of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and inevitably with David Cameron.
@yesindyref2
“Sadly my MP Katy Clark goes with a 2.5% lead, I say sadly because she’s one of the few decent Lab MPs, and active in the constituency too. Perhaps she can be persuaded to defect 😉 She is a rebel after all.”
USED to be a rebel you mean.
I used to have a lot of respect for her too. She has an office right here in Stevenston, and was known for getting involved in some good things here.
She had plenty of time to reconsider her position. There were a lot of other people in her party figuring out what was going on and jumping ship to Labour for Independence and other parties.
She’s definitely not a stupid person, I think she knew full-well that BT’s claims about the dangers of independence were all a pack of lies, yet she dutifully made sure that every house in the area got a regular dose of them.
I saw her a few times during that last week. Campaigning in Saltcoats, and then out at the polling station I spent that ill-fated day at. She cleared off after a while and appointed a couple of kids to take her place.
Her official BT car did show up once (though Katy herself wasn’t in it), driving this old guy with obvious mobility difficulties to the polling station. As soon as they’d dropped him off, the car immediately left again, leaving the poor guy stranded there. Dunno if the driver had been told “Just keep on bringing the suckers in. Once we’ve got their vote, they’re irrelevant!”
Anyways, I’d say Katy Clark made her choice to stand alongside the troughers and the lowest specimens of life who dare to call themselves part of humanity. If she goes down with them, I won’t be too upset.
Yeah, I know, I’m really not the forgiving type…
@ Oneironaut
I used to subscribe to Scottish Left Review. The latest edition contains articles by Katy Clark and a number of other unionists, demonstrating very clearly just how deeply enmeshed they are in the establishment.
I cancelled my subscription and transferred it, at least for the present, to Common Weal. I also sent SLR a letter explaining why, but they have not replied.
@crazycat
I see Sheridan in the same way as I view George Galloway. Their egos cannot tolerate anything less than them having complete control over the parties they join. They end up destroying their parties, Sheridan with the SSP, and Galloway with Respect.
This fair cheered me up:
link to m.huffpost.com
@Helena Brown
Sheridan called his colleagues “scabs”. He perjured himself in court. Sheridan cross examined witnesses in court, who he accused of lying, in particular a lady from Denmark (cannot remember her name), who was almost certainly telling the truth. Sheridan chose to bring the case to court, thereby humiliating those he had affairs with. He admitted the press stories were largely correct to the SSP’s leading committee, and then tried to deny it all in court. I do not understand the hold Sheridan has over some people.
@Morag:
Agreed. It was my own hopes and expectations I was metering against.
I suppose we have to wait the unofficial/official numbers to draw any final conclusions.
@Morag:
PS: Besides, I am sure that when it was announced that Paula Rose could not attend, many decided to stay home… 😉
Sheridan has behaved quite well during the independence campaign, and there’s no denying his demagogery has an effect and gets through to a lot of people. However, everything Muttley says about him is true, and he’s never come clean or apologised.
I don’t honestly know at what point, if ever, he should be allowed a clean slate and be accepted into the Yes movement without reservation. I’m pretty ambivalent about him I have to say.
link to youtube.com a short george sq clip.
been better with jim or dennis but it’s heaving people are there to show solidarity.
Hi Chris, great cartoon as usual…sums up tory arrogance beautifully.
@ muttley79
George Galloway used to be my MP. I’ve met Tommy Sheridan several times. Both of them are egotists who gave me the creeps, as a woman, when I spoke to them. I would prefer not to meet either of them again.
Nevertheless, I don’t think it is right for someone to break Galloway’s jaw (in London, nothing to do with the referendum) or for Sheridan to be automatically assumed to be doing something dodgy as he was in that Daily Record article.
So, as I said to you earlier, wanting them to be treated as fellow creatures deserving fairness does not equate with supporting them politically, or with putting them beyond criticism.
Your question about why people support Sheridan followed a post citing the Record article and expressing the opinion that he should sue them. Do you think whatever he has done in the past disqualifies him for recourse to the law permanently and regardless? I don’t, and I doubt you do either. (There may be valid questions to be asked about the funding for the rally; that isn’t the point I’m trying to make.)
AuldA, I don’t think there is a target number below which a rally like that can be judged a failure. Or if there is, it’s a hell of a lot lower than the numbers who are still there as we speak, an hour after the originally-advertised end time. (It’s thinning a little at the back but there’s still a big crowd.)
So often the Yes movement is the victim of its own unrealistic hype. People confidently declaring that we’d get over 60% Yes, even as the polls consistently put Yes at about 47 to 48%. People believing that canvass returns in very pro-Yes streets could be extrapolated to the streets nobody was tweeting about.
More recently, breathless insistence that the SNP had 100,000 members, which only took the shine off the real number, which was at the time over 76,000 – an astonishing figure. People tweeting electoral calculus maps derived from a tiny unweighted Scottish sub-sample of a UK-wide opinion poll, suggesting the whole of Scotland was about to turn yellow. In your dreams.
We’re told not to be spoilsports, and people are only having fun, but it doesn’t take too long before groupthink takes hold and the exaggeration becomes the belief of the group. Then – do people work as hard, if they think it’s a sure thing? Do people go home from an excellent rally, or watch it on Livestream, not happy but down and disappointed because they expected more?
Probably worst of all, people convinced that Yes was ahead get sucked into conspiracy theories alleging that the ballot papers were tampered with, because they can’t accept that they were being too optimistic during the summer.
So for goodness sake, look at the number of people in George Square. The rally is a thumping success. I’ve been at far more thinly populated gatherings there, where we were trying to put a brave face on it. If we’d had that sort of number, we’d have been ecstatic.
It’s an ad-hoc post-referendum rally, organised around someone many of the Yes movement would cross the street to avoid. And it’s heaving. The glass is rather better than half-full, for real.
The NI editor did not tell the truth. In jail for perjury.
The lawyer sent back cheques which were sent to help Tommy’s defence. Cheques are on their way to Tommy.
I was at the Hope over Fear rally in George Squerr and it was a pleasure as always to be part of the Indy crowd.
It was as Morag described it above.
It was very colourful of course with so many flags and the Wings banner. Tommy’s voice was already going when we arrived at 1.15.
There were loads of people around the inner and outer perimeters of the Squerr, viz. on both pavements.
At ‘the back’ the City Chambers end, it would have been difficult to hear the speakers who were at the opposite end, facing City Chambers. There was a constant trickle of people coming and going with lots of movement around the edges.
Had there been many more people it would perhaps have been too crowded. I’ve been in big crowds – it’s no place for buggys and young kids.
Indy is alive that’s for sure.
@Husker
I remember you as SinnAonaichte from the Guardian when I used to post there over 2 years ago, so don’t worry about it, I certainly don’t doubt your committment! (I’m aka dadsarmy and have a good, ummm, err, what’s that word again, memory).
I think there’s been a few trolls here and some people are suspicious.
Apparently, Scottish Labour are worried enough about the BT backlash that they are seriously thinking of reinventing themselves. Rumour has it that a new name is being considered (wait for it….):
The Independent Labour Party
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Hilarious. You can imagine what those clowns must be thinking:
“Yeah, so more than 30% of our support voted YES, so we will just get Gordon to make the right noises and call ourselves the Independent Labour Party. That’ll get them back!” Yeah, let’s go for it!
Red Tory Clowns
@crazycat
I was not talking about the DR article. I was saying I do not trust Sheridan based on his behaviour when he was the leader of the SSP. Sheridan accused many people in his party of various things, and then perjured himself in court, which as a leader of a political party was disastrous. This nearly destroyed his own party.
@Luigi
Red Tory Clowns is probably the most suitable name for them.
It projects their image to the constituencies and says everything that needs to be said about their policies! 😉
O/T
Over the course of this week YouGov have surveyed 1120 voters in Scotland and show the SNP support reaching 40 per cent, with Labour down to 29 per cent. The Tories are in third place at 17 per cent. Significantly, while UKIP make progress in England, on these sub samples they are anchored in fifth place in Scotland at a mere four per cent.
@Ken500
That does not mean that Sheridan was not guilty of perjury.
George Square today.
Photo’s Jim Brown
Morag: So often the Yes movement is the victim of its own unrealistic hype.
Where do you find the gall to make these wild assertions?
Every one of the paragraphs in your post is a calculated downer on hope. You’re back to your old game.
Muttley: That does not mean that Sheridan was not guilty of perjury.
I like the jury’s decision on his first trial – the one in which Coulson lied in the dock, hand on the Bible. They found him not guilty, determined not to let the Murdoch press vilify and drown a politician of the working class.
@Morag:
I call for a small recess. Will answer you in a few minutes. Sorry for the delay.
I missed the Wings banner 🙁 got there about 1.30 and hung around for a while, and took some pics, two toying boys dressed as stormtroopers, but obviously made Scottish. Great crowd, good natured, lots of youngsters and dogs wearing yes t shirts! I would say there was max 4k there, with police just hanging about on the side streets, lots of folk coming and going.
I frankly do not give 2 hoots whether Tommy Sheridan lied about his “sexploits” – be it in Court, out of Court, or in his maw’s kitchenette.
If they ever happened at all, they were nobody’s business but his own (and his wife’s.
Save us from holier-than-thou puritans please – mostly they turn out to have been shagging like rabbits whilst condemning everybody else
On the issue of “trust”, surely our focus and anger should be directed to Brown, Darling and Cameron? I don’t want to waste any YES energy fighting our own side.
Leave Tommy Sheridan be – let him do his stuff. People don’t have to listen to him if they don’t want to (and many people do want to).
Brown’s interventions are ‘increasingly surreal’
Commenting on former Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s latest intervention in the debate about Westminster devolving more powers to the Scottish parliament as promised in the ‘vow’ by the three current Westminster leaders in the lead up the referendum – and as the focus moves this week to the debates scheduled in the House of Commons Pete Wishart SNP MP said:
“Gordon Brown’s contributions to the debate on Scotland’s future are becoming increasingly surreal and are full of inconsistencies and contradictions . Before the referendum Gordon Brown posed a guarantor of the ‘vow’ – the promise to deliver wide ranging new powers to Holyrood – but then resorted to asking people to sign a petition to ensure its delivery . He is now calling on other Westminster parties to do more – but his own party’s proposals for more powers are even weaker than the Tories or the Liberal Democrats.
“Mr Brown attacks plans to give Scotland all control of income tax, even suggesting they are a ‘Trojan horse’ to deliver full fiscal autonomy – but if he was in any way consistent with the pre-referendum ‘vow’ to the people of Scotland he would be throwing all his weight behind full fiscal autonomy for Holyrood.
“He hasn’t even been able to persuade the current Labour leadership to go as far in delivering new powers as he says he wants, as they are outbid by the Lib Dems and even the Tories. He also says he wants more power over rail to be devolved – but again his colleagues in Scottish Labour failed to use their submission to the Smith Commission to suggest that public sector bidders should be allowed to compete for rail franchise agreements.
“Gordon Brown was in government for 10 years – three of them as Prime Minister. He could have delivered on any of his ideas then but failed to do so, and was in fact bitterly opposed even to the devolution of Air Passenger Duty. As a Labour backbencher and self proclaimed ex-politician Gordon Brown speaks with no real authority or ability to deliver anything at all – and that is his problem.
“People across Scotland are waiting on the Westminster parties to deliver on their pre-referendum ‘vow’ of ‘home rule’, as promised by Mr Brown – and they will not easily forgive or forget if that promise is broken.”
Click on the link below for pics of today’s George Sq event.
link to twitter.com
Anyone watch Sunday politics programme ?
Apparently not one person has actually EVER offered devo max, before or since the vote!!
No wonder the child molesters and abusers got away with it so long.
Better Together, unless you are a victim of these scumbags obviously.
The state media war machine is still focused on pro indy Scots.
They are clearly still running scared of the Yes movement, they should be.
When pro indy parties target labour seats in 2015, the state media have a big problem. They will want to attack us to help labour, but with the WM “prize” at stake, no way will the english tories stand by and let that happen.
If you poke a bear with a stick, you better make it a damn long stick.
Gordon Brown – had his party been behind him, well, without stabbing him in the back, it’s possible he could have managed a rainbow coalition with Libs. He doesn’t neccessarily work in the interests of Labour, he’s the Joker in the pack, and quite interesting to see what happens there over the next few weeks.
Annie Lennox – should stick to expressing herslf in her music.
Sunday Herald – has to be regarded as a potential hostile. The Herald seems to have backtracked on its intention to be the clarion for the new powers, the SH back to Devo, but not neccessarily Max. Meanwhile the SNP is fair game for it. Ian McW is on holiday until next week or week after, see what happens then. Labour are perhaps turning the screws, and the establishment – perhaps threatening to withhold journalists access to them unless they toe the line. A bit suspicious!
Hope over Fear Rally
why?
a tommy sheridon lovefest production,that over egged the pudding 13k,be kind 3k showed up.
1000,s have joined political parties,since YES,we want to move on
real politics is the game,the commons Tuesday debate will be imformative to both camps YES/NO scotland
2015,2016 elections will be history making
Just back from the Skerr. It was jam packed. The Sunday Pail carried an SSP article, “Why I won’t be at the Square today”. It was still going when I left and the pubs round about were full of the demonstrators.
Luigi: surely our focus and anger should be directed to Brown, Darling, and Cameron?
Absolutely, Luigi.
There is only one enemy; it has the heads of the Hydra, but only one body politic – the British Establishment.
Wonderful stuff again Chris.
You are a talented guy . Please keep up the fantastic work. I have quite a few copied for my screensaver . Superb
Compared to most of the Westminster lot Tommy Sheridan is a Saint. Tommy Sheridan would have been found not guilty if Coulson hadn’t lied.
Tommy Sheridan, possible perjurer.
Westminster and BBC, covered up Perversery.
And who gets villified ?
Tory MNPs usually get done for sex and Labour MPs corruption.
@Harry Shanks
If you lie in court then you are leaving yourself open to being convicted of perjury, which pretty much seals a jail sentence. That is the issue with Sheridan, as well as nearly destroying his party as well.
muttley79 commented on Club membership increases.
@Harry Shanks
If you lie in court then you are leaving yourself open to being convicted of perjury, which pretty much seals a jail sentence. That is the issue with Sheridan, as well as nearly destroying his party as well.
At least half the people in court tell porkies, otherwise the courts would go out of business. The News of the Screws editor who was allowed to throw a “sickie” has since been jailed for perjury.
As and ex member of the SSP the biggest lie I found unforgivable was claiming to be for an Independent Socialist Scotland, whilst voting against it at conference every year and constantly attacking those who dared propose it. Their forum produced nothing but bile, character assassination and hatred: not an experience I would like to repeat, despite the many good friends I had there, not least some open Unionists, who warned me of the backstabbing cliqueism.
I just came in from my pal’s house where he had STV on the box. The Estonia vs England football match was just coming on and he was about to return to watching Livi vs Stranraer on Alba when his wife said, “Thone Ingis dinna ken thir ain national anthem”. Sure enough the English were singing along to, “God save Auld Liz”. Which, last time I looked, was indeed the UK’s National Anthem.
So I’m trying to figure out if it’s just English idiocy, an English insult to the rest of the UK or a rest of the UK insult to the English? My first thoughts were the English were just stupid but upon reflection I’m putting it down to the Estonian stadium folks just not knowing any better and the English stupid enough to just go along with it being too stupid to know the difference anyway.
;-))
Oneironaut
Yes, I saw earlier she was leafletting and so on. But Rev had an article before the ref, and her answers were judged to be mostly fair, so there’s hope for her yet.
Perhaps a few dozen polite but sorrowful emails from her constituents might help show here she’s gone back on the Labour principles her father / grandfateher whichever espoused, that North Ayrshire came second bottom only to Glasgow in some economic indicator perhaps unemployment a year or so back, that Scotland needs the full powers to do something about this, and that if she can’t support Independence, she should at least be outspoken about a full range of powers in Devo-Max. We’re sorry but it looks like we’ll have to change our vote next GE to the SNP who have shown themselves willing to tackle these problems. Blah blah.
Enough emails like that, and she might get the message she’s out on her ear if she continues along the blue labour line and stays in bed with the tories.
Good picture of the crowd today in George Square, looks like it was taken from a webcam
.
Muttley give it a rest about Tommy Sheridan! He’s worked his butt off for Independnce! I thought that there was a lot wrong with his party and not him!
What about ripping Gordon Brown apart instead of Tommy! Give us some peace!
Some pics from ‘Freedom Square, the Republic of Glasgow’
link to dropbox.com
“C’mon folks. This meeting in George Square today was not meant to happen. You jocks look so happy, and there are so many of you! Why? This just wasn’t meant to happen! You were supposed to go back into your little nat boxes and let us get on with Lording it over you for another 300 years. It’s not fair, it just isn’t…….British!”
Exactly.
@Morag, @manandboy:
Okay. I freely admit my expectations weren’t based on any fact or experience. Just a gut feeling.
Since I have no logical reason to challenge your own construe, I accept it, and set a watermark for whatever future event we may discuss.
Long live the Indy spirit.
Muttley! Give it a rest about Tommy Sheridan! I’m sick reading about your thoughts on him today. He has done a great job for YES. I don’t think some of the others in his party could get over jealousies!
I say that anyone dedicated to the YES movement is welcome!
Luigi: It’s not fair, it just isn’t…….British!”
Satire at its best!
George Square – 6,000 according to the herald. I part agree with Morag about over-hyped expectations – 14,000. But with many YES on social media, there’s little doubt the discrediting Sheridan campaign of the last 2 days deterred a lot of people.
Whether this is an attempt to split YES, or just old rivalries surfacing having commendably been put to one side during the ref campaign, who knows?
Hopefully it won’t last long, as there’s work to be done, and a cause to be won.
Just in from HopeOverFear, brilliant,the dream is truly alive and kicking.
Yesindyref2: I part agree with Morag about over-hyped expectations.
Quelle surprise!
I’m sorry I missed it today – but thanks one and all for the pics!
Looks great and I am envious!
Ronnie, you are looking well!
Sinky
Phew, caught up. The Yougov poll into electoral calculus (thanks capella), in seats:
SNP 39, Lab 17, Con 2, Lib 1
Clearly it’s a predictor, doesn’t allow for UKIP, or Green and SSP, and doesn’t allow for such a huge swing to SNP in its algorithms. It’s an indication only. scotlandvotes is quite different.
Greens, by the way, didn’t say they were sitting a candidate at all 59 seats, just that they were reviewing their policy. A clear message to the SNP to co-operate, I think.
Grouse Beater
You really need to focus your energy on unionists, as I try to.
I ate a Unionist for breakfast in the Herald (CR) and have spat out the bones. I don’t want to have to snack on my own side!
Cheers for the info /advice Grousebeater
@Bob Sinclair
Great pictures! who’s that with the wings Banner?
@ yesindyref2
Encouraging trends in the polls. Let’s not damp down our expectations too much. Let’s raise our aspirations to get over 50% intending to vote SNP and many more voting Green and SSP and other indy friendly parties. Any ideas on how to do that?
found the great new yew choob video and added a pic of today’s hope over fear rally
enjoy –
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
The woman in the Wings Banner pic is Lindsay Jarrett, one of the most inspirational people I’ve had the good luck to meet. It was her who climbed Edinburgh Castle rock with an oxygen tank due to her debilitating illness to hang a YES banner. It took the British Army to remove it.
@ Bob Sinclair
Lindsay’s a real star.
The livestream was bit patchy this time. I hope some videos of the speeches are uploaded. I did see Craig Murray but missed Naomi Woolf and Tommy Sheridan. If anyone knows where to locate them, do let us know.
Livestream certainly does need better equipment. I have donated so hope others do too as we certainly won’t get this from BBBC.
A Small plea, I’m not here to lecture as I have been as guilty as anyone since the referendum result.
Getting into petty spats and in reality lowering the tone of the type of conversations and discussions here that were once an inspiration prior to the referendum is a mistake that I and others have made.
I’m sure I’m not alone, though if Independence is truly your goal then I’m sure you realise that no matter your background, education or wealth the best way to achieve that is through working together.
I couldn’t care less about Tommy Sheridans previous history if he managed to bring more to the Yes side than were lost to the No’s.
I couldn’t care less if Ivan McKee as a businessman who supports capitalism if he managed to bring more to the Yes side than were lost to the No’s.
Two opposite ends of the political spectrum in Scotland yet I have respect for both.
This is what we truly need, even after Independence we all must work together to succeed, the future is not decided we will decide that future in time.
Right now though, a falling out between the more active and vociferous of the Yes grassroots campaigners is exactly what Westminster Tories and Labour desire most. Please try not to fall for it and consider the posts you submit in the wider context before doing so.
This is a time for unity, even when you disagree with anothers point of view.
Brown’s interventions are ‘increasingly surreal’
link to snp.org
Interesting comment on rail from Wishart: “but again his colleagues in Scottish Labour failed to use their submission to the Smith Commission to suggest that public sector bidders should be allowed to compete for rail franchise agreements.”
The petty bickering is reaally boring . Some of the keyboard jockeys who are content to sit and attack should get out and meet some real people. And by the way … People in glass houses etc
Don`t `think the hopeoverfear rally was all about Tommy, people were there for many reasons. Met two woman who had just joined the SNP and this was their first time at an event like this, they came to get involved with Yessers.
It would be good if Events like that must spring up over the whole country small and large.Some of the young speakers were very good, and bode well for the future of an Independent Scotland. We Go On.
yesindyref2 @ 12 October, 2014 at 4:21 pm
You were the one with the Corporal Walker monicker?
Take the point about trolls. One of the reasons with the multiple Guardian monickers is that I tried to give a balanced opinion looking at both sides and getting sick attacked by trolls and drowning it with white noise. It got to the point where I got sick to my back teeth of it and always saying I would give up only to come back again. I had did the same with the Cheeky_chippy_jock one and swore I’d never be back only to be back again under Husker45!!
Capella – wow, what a big topic!
There’s a few different socialist and breakaway Labour groups at the moment, and perhaps this is a good thing as they can attract different Labour members and even MPs / MSPs give them time. But also give them a hand. Perhaps “we” can identify a list of MPs who aren’t comfortable with Blue Labour, and just contact them. Encourage them to think SNP, or one of the socialist groups on the go. Get back to their roots. In time the groups might need to get together a bit!
I think the SNP needs to stay near the centre, wth a bit of left but a bit of right. It’s their comfort zone, though the new members might make a difference.
For this it needs a viable left-wing alternative to Labour. At best that can take the seat, second-best is to split the Labour vote, and help the SNP / Green candidate in.
Next is Devo-Max. I think we need to keep the pressure on, but also keep the expectations high, with as much of the 45% and 55% we can get to. Then the GE can be about the 3 unionists parties failing to measure up to these expectations and lose voters – to us.
To do this, each to their own. Some friends and family, others at work. Some of us keyboard warriors! I’d say kind of polite and gentle, but firm at the same time. There’s a big push on by the other side to lower the expectations of Smith to let the Unionists off the hook. We can’t afford to let them get away with that. “It’s Devo-Max, get it? Nothing less. That was what was promised, that’s what we expect to be delivered”.
@ A.N.Surgent
Yes I heard the young university student ? Sheppard? give a terrific speech full of positive energy to go forward to the 2015 election. Would be good if all the speeches could be uploaded.
I’m not sure why people feel compelled to make snide comments about high profile Independence campaigners (such as Tommy Sheridan) at this stage.
Surely it has to be recognised that the likes of Tommy Sheridan can command a fair amount of support amongst working class people.
If you want to try and split the vote / campaign go right ahead, you will only be doing the work of the Security Services and Establishment.
This is about Independence not petty dislikes.
Independence first and then sort out the personalities.
yesindyref2
I would think that Labour and Brown are worried. In the main the areas that Labour tend to do well in at Westminster elections went Yes some marginally others by a big margin. Their co-operation with the Tories has gone down with a lead balloon and has annoyed those non-SNP who voted Yes.
Testing.
Thinking about all the support we have, and all the frustrated yessers out there. Would it not be a good idea for all the Yes groups organised YES nights, for their local areas, a social with music and bar, a real regular social event?
Where people can discuss and exchange ideas, and have fun have fun bonding at the same time.
Imagine, if this was developed, it would give all supporters and naysayers and DK’s alike a regular event to help keep the momentum going and continue building support, adding funds at the same time.
Just saying!
Here in England, something odd’s happening to Cross of Saint George flags flying here since Scotland voted No, especially in posh bits. They’re all morphing into Union Jacks. Very odd.
Just back from Grg Sq and it was great. For the folk saying there was less folk than expected, that’s cos some folk didn’t stay all day.
Folk left went to some of the pubs or coffee houses and came back. I popped into the Yesbar, the Counting House and Pret a manger – full of folk from the event.
I listened to most of the speeches and saw the wings banner.
Tommy and other socialists made a point of saying vote SNP for the GE, get indy, then sort out our differences – and I agree 100% with that.
I wish folk would drop the criticism of people who have given their time and energy to make indy a success – criticise the ones who deserve it -the red, blue and yellow tories.
There were some great speakers and all were very passionate.
Personally I’m not at all happy with the Herald today, there was overt criticism of Nicola and her hubby – a nameless insider from the SNP – too much power in them as a couple.
Tommy disgraced politician etc – well as far as I’m concerned there are a lot more disgraceful politicians than him and then a plug for the new improved ‘independent’ Lab party.
If next week is the same – I wont be buying it again.
BTW there was a contingent from the ‘Free Republic of Dundee’
link to youtube.com
Mhairi Black George Square Rally.
WOW!
🙂
BBC news :- Police say 6,000 at the rally !
As a rule of thumb, I always double the police estimates for any rally.
Betty Craney. If u want a real good St Andrew’s day Rally try this.
The annual JOHN MACLEAN/ST ANDREW’S DAY COMMEMORATION will take place on Sunday 30 November 2014.
Meet 1pm at Eastwood Cemetery, Thornliebank Road Next to Thornliebank Railway Station, for short Graveside orations from Gerry Cairns (John Maclean Society) and Alan Stewart (International Officer, SRSM).
There will then be a march from opposite the cemetery gates Thornliebank Rd/Boydston Rd to the John Maclean Cairn at Shawbridge Arcade. The march will move off at 1.30pm prompt.
This will then be followed by a social/rally with speakers at the Shawbridge Tavern, 231 Shawbridge St.
The lively band “Uisqueabach” will be playing.
Anne Gomez, the Scottish folk singer (her recent album “Roch the Wind” includes the John Maclean March) has offered to sing.
And there will be a magician, Amazin’ Jason Kelly.
Please support this event.
Admission £5. Children Free.
http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org
link to scottishrepublicans.myfreeforum.org
The 18-year-old student was Sam Shackleton, he was incredible, he just seemed to have some sort of energy about him. Craig Murray was also good, railing against the dual unionist horrors of the racist UKIP and the 100% unelected monarchy.
I saw Lindsay with the WoS banner, she is an inspiration, I read that she is 43 and has given birth to five weans, I always thought she was a lassie of 20!! How can one country produce the likes of her…. and Gordon Brown?!?
I would also like to add my comment that Tommy is an absolute inspiration. He is totally against racism of any form and it was thanks to him, I believe, that Glasgow and so much of the surrounding area turned YES. If you need any confirmation that he is a good guy, just see how he is attacked in dross like the Daily Record. That is a good enough character reference for me!
fred blogger @ 12 October, 2014 at 11:23 am
When I debate online and offline, I do so in a clam and reasonable manner, seeing things from both sides and try not to bite at digs. I also try to get the debate away from the nonsense back to the point. However, there are times where I just get to the point where I explode and go off on a rant.
I remember watching a youtube clip from Jim Sillar where he said that much of the energy of the working class is taken up in defence and what could be done if given if that restraint was moved. As seen with how the referendum debate went, sensible debate does not work but there needs to be different ways to do going about it.
I don’t know what that is but I’m going to run with the idea I have of creating material for social media as another way of getting what I think across. I don’t think I’ll be very good at it but I do hope that somebody sees what I do, gets where I am coming from and produce something more effective.
Betty Craney
and that 6000 is @ anyone time.
Cappella
Sorry can`t help you with were to get speeches. Cant remember names 🙁 but the girl who had just turned twenty was a powerful speaker.
What about reclaiming Halloween, St Andrews Night and Burns Night for Indyref events?
Gordon Brown has hijacked these dates for his “timeline”. He’s a serial hijacker. He recently said the Labour party should return to the ideals of Keir Hardie!! Probably going to rehijack him (having dumped him for decades) and reframe his (Hardie’s) Home Rule as Devo Nano.
Some leaflets through the doors of new YES supporters spelling out the facts would probably help?
@Marcia
Brown and Labour are right to be worried. They teamed up with the Tories to oppose independence, at a time when the Tories were pushing through significant austerity cuts. Predictably, they have pissed off many of their supporters in Scotland. They also got predictably mugged by the Tories immediately after the referendum with EVEL. This means the Tories are going to use it as a campaigning pledge at the general election. Their submission to the Smith Commission is even less radical than the Tories!
Marcia: I would think that Labour and Brown are worried.
I am beginning to doubt Brown’s sanity.
Every since he lost the premiership – his natural destiny as he thought it to be – his utterances grow more and more erratic, illogical, contradictory, and invariably given in closed environments.
Husker
It’s not easy trying to be balanced as you get attacked at times by your own side for being a troll, a “flag troll” But to try to get through to undecideds or soft, even hard Noes, you have to try to see their point of view, and stick to the truth as well. I moved to the Herald because I had the misfortune of getting post-moderated and felt duty bound to make use of that! it was a lot easier there, almost a club. I took the chicken way out!
Alex Cark
I agree and I disagree. And that’s an answer in itself for me, we’re needing to look at tactics and even strategy, and there’s bound to be disagreements. It also raises suspicions “are you really pro-Indy or are you a fake?”. Well, we’ll get over it. Wings is a better place to do this I think, than in “the outside world”, where we do need to appear more unified.
Let battle commence!
Scotspine and Liz
Agree with you both. I was in Glasgow today to support the independence movement not TS.
If folk are going to use the excuse that we don,t agree with everything the different leaders in the movement stand for to not turn up at events we might as well all join Paula Rose,s lipstick liberation front (no offence Paula) and sit at home and admire ourselves in the mirror.
I have just joined the snp to further the cause although I don’t agree with all their policies.
We can squable over differences once the job is done.
liz says @ 12 October, 2014 at 7:30 pm
I couldn’t make it today because of family commitments but good to hear it was a day day 🙂
There was a two page spread in the Sunday Herald which contains articles about Tommy Sheridan. I can see both sides of the story but Tommy is genuine about his working class roots, he doesn’t hide it and is as a natural speaker. Because of that he is someone that folk like me can relate to and he is able to articulate things that I have been saying but in a way that I find it hard to do.
I recall a saying in American politics that goes along the lines of there are times were doing the smart thing is better than doing the right thing. To those who have doubts about Tommy Sheridan, he is the right person at this moment of time to take the campaign forward. Ok you have doubts about him but is it the smart thing to let him get on with things?
I’m not trying to put down people who have genuine concerns about him because I know he is no angel as you say there are far worse people involved in politics out there.
Yesindyref2: You need to focus your energy on unionists
After you.
You and ‘Morag’ should get a room. There you can swap exaggerations and half-truths about the Yes campaign and movement to your heart’s content, unchallenged planning ways to patronise the unwary with personal opinion that owes nothing to existing evidence.
fredblogger
Thanks: Mairi Black, brilliant speech.
Attended George Sq today.
Lovely to see so many Yes badges etc
Came home & took off my Yes badge for the first time.
Now, where do we go from here…?
Forgot the”h” in Mhairi. Sorry Mhairi.
For those looking for a break from independence banter:
Got the Smarts? grousebeater.wordpress
@heedtracker says: 12 October, 2014 at 7:29 pm:
“Here in England, something odd’s happening to Cross of Saint George flags flying here since Scotland voted No, especially in posh bits. They’re all morphing into Union Jacks. Very odd.”
Nothing really odd about it, Heedtracker. It’s back to the Englanders striving to be the Master Race in Britain as the Anglo Saxon tribes have done since the Romans left and the Southern Britons invited the Germanic Tribes to protect them as they had no experience of warfare or running a country from 54BC till the end of the Roman occupation.
I’ve been pointing it out for years. Cameron keeps saying Britain when he means the UK. The adoption of the UK flag as English and the Anthem of the UK as both English & British. In fact I posted earlier of the English supporters in Estonia using the UK anthem as that of England. It’s just some more of the Establishments brainwashing propaganda. Trouble is, (for them), is that it is only the Englanders that are still falling for the brainwashing.
Amazing to think the best speakers at today’s rally — from what I saw anyway — were under the age of twenty! I could not speak like them in the safety of my own bedroom, let along to ten thousand fowk on George Square! Let us hope they really activate all their peers, our wonderful Scottish youth is a real credit to the nation and our greatest asset, they are so clued-up and keyed-up as well.
What if Gordon Brown thinks he’s got a chance as First minister! I wouldn’t put it past him!
@Husker
To those who have doubts about Tommy Sheridan, he is the right person at this moment of time to take the campaign forward. Ok you have doubts about him but is it the smart thing to let him get on with things?
I used to be an admirer of Tommy Sheridan. However, I now see him as a kind of a cult political leader. He gets people to blindly follow him. Sheridan is a manipulator, and he will destroy any movement or party he leads, just as George Galloway does. I make no apology for saying Sheridan is exactly the wrong person to take the independence movement onwards. The people I look to take the movement forward are proven, reliable politicians, such as Nicola Sturgeon and Patrick Harvey.
muttley79
I read Alan McCombes article in the Sunday Pail today, stating why he would not go to George Square. I still have the highest regard and respect for Alan. I just think he should move on in his own worth. Scottish Independence is bigger than any individual in the scheme of things and life is full of hard knocks. You are judged, if at all not by your grievances, but upon your ability to get up and carry on regardless.
I have had a lifetime of hard knocks. So who cares? Not me certainly. The past can be a foreign country sometimes. No need to make yourself an alien when you have so much more (I hope) to offer.
Husker
quakers get that slang insult name because they shake or quake in rage when in the face of lies.
A.N.Surgent
what a great speaker, no emotion spared, wonderful stuff.
I believe we were all able to work together until the referendum. Now it would appear that unity is fragmenting. Why would that be?
Because it really is not possible for us to work together?
Or because that is what some might like you to believe for their reasons?
@Heedtracker
“Here in England, something odd’s happening to Cross of Saint George flags flying here since Scotland voted No, especially in posh bits. They’re all morphing into Union Jacks. Very odd.”
Something I just noticed yesterday.
The Lidl at the end of my street has been selling frozen peas branded with the words “Green Grocer’s Frozen Peas”.
Now that they’ve restocked after the referendum, I noticed they’re now branded “Green Grocer’s British Frozen Peas” with a union flag prominently portrayed on the front.
Me wonders if the company who makes them had a “Scottish Frozen Peas” variant readied in case there had been a Yes vote…
One thing I hate worse than ("Tractor" - Ed)s is someone who sits on the fence until the battle is over, then sucks up to the winner like they were on their side all along.
Think I’ll see what Aldi’s brand is like…
@ Flower of Scotland says:
12 October, 2014 at 8:10 pm
What if Gordon Brown thinks he’s got a chance as First minister! I wouldn’t put it past him!
From saving the World to fucking up Scotland.
Naw, I don’t think so. With a pack of us lot at his heels day in, day out. He would end up being sectioned.
Just saw the speech by that young lady (Mhairi Black?). Fantastic stuff and clearly has a good, tactical brain on her, seeing clearly that she does not have to love everything the SNP does, just accepts voting for them as the best tactic in General Election next year to get a step closer to what she (and all of us) wants. Putting aside her preferred ideal political scenarios for that which actually might make at least *some* of what she wants come to pass.
@Muttley79
re Patrick Harvie
I have always had my doubts about Patrick Harvie’s personal commitment to independence, and feel that he would have by far preferred a federal fudge.
The sledge of new members may be a check on any tendency he may have towards that in the future but …..
I’m seeing articles in papers saying that there was 6,000 at the rally today. To be quite honest, that was how many was in the Square at any one time! All around the side streets, bars, restaurants, etc, the streets were chocka-block with folk carrying saltires.
In my opinion, I would easily say 10,000
I am not sure Gordon Brown being a option for FM as I think he has never set foot in the Scottish Parliament in recent years. He certainly avoided it completely when he was PM and the SNP were in power and I do not think he has visited it recently.
Mind you he doesn’t go near Westminster very often either.
Strange for a politician to have an aversion to both Parliaments – but then he is a very odd person.
Any footage yet of Gerry Cinnamon from the Square. On to savour, I promise, for this who didn’t manage to last the whole seven hours.
@Les Wilson
our Yes group is continuing, and as far as I can gather, loads of Yes groups in Glasgow area are – don’t know about elsewhere.
The Britnat establishment will be doing its best to divide the yes groups, divided on political parties lines, personalities (Tommy Sheridan good or bad), no doubt religion again, etc. Yes, I believe, needs to provide the cement for the movement. We need something that transcends the differences, which may be important differences, but right now are not important – not until we achieve home rule (or independence).
@BtP: Uh. I thought you had deserted. Glad you’re still with us.
O/T
A somewhat nice opinion about UKIP on The Guardian, here:
link to theguardian.com
Of course Broon imagines himself as FM — among other things (king of the world, saviour of the universe). He is a complete egomanic. You could tell he was, psychologically, a deeply flawed individual back in the 1990s. My memory fails me, but after losing the only general election he ever fought as head of a party, he was angling for some top job, either in the EU or World Bank, I forget what. I shudder to think what he would have done at the World Bank, we would have needed very planet in the solar system to bail us out after that one… Look, basically everyone who goes into WM politics and rises to the top is a flawed individual. That is why we have to leave this broken system and why the only possible solution to the problem is independence.
Mutley
Tommy Sheridan is just one of MANY who will take the independence movment forward. Some people don’t like Salmond, some don’t like Harvie, some don’t like Tommy.
I couldn’t care less.
Fact is, it takes many people to take a movement forward, and Tommy to my mind is utterly brilliant at what he does.
As regards his past, well, look, let’s get some freaking perspective, he apparently did a wee naughty (set up by the news of the world), and spent time in Barlinnie. He has paid his debt. Time to move on. He’s not a child rapist FFS!!
Honestly, Nobody cares anymore Mutley, and the more you bang your drum about how ‘he almost destroyed the SSP’, the more ridiculous you sound. It’s ancient history.
I see many things with Tommy Sheridan, but in particular I remember very well (maybe some people new to all this won’t even know), how it was HE who got put in jail for 6 months in 1991, for standing up for a single mother who couldn’t afford her poll tax, and was having her last worldly possessions forcibly removed from her house in a warrant sale, and it was HE who inspired and led much of the poll tax rebellion. Going to jail for daring to stand up for a single mother sounds like a man of principle to me. More principled than MOST politicians on the left and right.
So, I look at all of it good and bad, and on balance, I like the guy. I’d eventually like him back as an MSP once again.
You know, we all know people we maybe aren’t keen on in life, but we just get on, and that’s what we need to do to achieve independence. We are all different, and all have different backgrounds and talents. Let’s bitch about our unionist opponents, not those such as Tommy who work so hard to achieve a better fairer Scotland.
@Bugger
re Patrick Harvie
I have always had my doubts about Patrick Harvie’s personal commitment to independence, and feel that he would have by far preferred a federal fudge.
The sledge of new members may be a check on any tendency he may have towards that in the future but …..
I think the Greens were split between those who supported the Union and those who supported independence. I am not sure if Patrick Harvey supported independence or not. I thought he campaigned well for it anyway. You could well be right about the federal element. One thing that did disappoint me about him was that he wanted the BBC to continue after a Yes vote. The Greens portray themselves as a radical party, and this policy hints at a little bit of Liberal style wishy washiness, or even conservatism.
Gordon Brown is “one to watch”.
Anyway, it occurs to me that Sheridan is virtually untouchable, exactly because he’s not perfect, but has done his time. I don’t remember any serious attempt to bring him down during the ref, and it would have failed. A great indy personality. Another such is Sillars, but while still with some associations to the SNP, constrained and restricted, a potential liability. His “Day of Reckoning” was a bad thing, but only because of his closer association with the SNP and appearance of influence.
Well, now he’s off and doing his own thing. From the Herald “The Scottish Left Project (SLP), which is backed by former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars, will target parliament’s list system, which can see MSPs elected with as little as 6% of the vote.”. He is now clear of the SNP.
He could help to displace Labour there. But perhaps also for the GE? One other who has public personna is Canavan, underutilised during the campaign. A wild one. Can cause damage, but can get attention and do some good.
Perhaps we have the start of the “Untouchables”, whose mission is to bring down anti-democratic forces and media collusion!
Well, it is Sunday, and I have just watched the fist good Doctor Who episode for a long time.
@Dr JM Mackintosh
I suspect Brown has his sights chasing ermine in the House of Lords.
@Graeme Doig says:12 October, 2014 at 7:55 pm:
“I have just joined the snp to further the cause although I don’t agree with all their policies.
We can squable over differences once the job is done.
Now, Graeme, This may come as a surprise to you but it is stone cold fact. If you want to join a political party that you are in agreement with everything that party stands for then you had best start a brand new party and limit the membership to just one. Every party that ever was has hit a period when the people at the top got into a fankle over what the party stands for.
That is why parties move left and right across the political spectrum and they always have done. It is the same reason parties arrive at a common spot on the political spectrum and two parties merge into one and why one party splits into two.
So you join the party most close to your ideal and from there it becomes the democratic will of the members what policy to follow. Trouble with United Kingdom parties at present is that the main UK parties have deserted the democratic model and are now virtual dictatorships. Contrast that with the SNP. They are properly democratic and this was seen by all when the party conference, before the TV cameras, debated and voted upon their NATO Policy. Sitting there was Alex Salmond with exactly the same number of votes as everyone else. A debate and vote later and policy was changed. Even then a couple of elected members left the party as they could not accept a democratic decision.
That’s the reality of political parties and I doubt there is a member anywhere that agrees 100% in any political party for such 100% agreements are usually called dictatorships by all but the actual leaders..
Kenny: Amazing to think the best speakers at today’s rally — from what I saw anyway — were under the age of twenty! Let us hope they really activate all their peers, our wonderful Scottish youth is a real credit to the nation and our greatest asset, they are so clued-up
That raises hope for the future, and a good summation of the day. Thanks, Kenny.
Noo dont you’s awe laugh at wance, got in from the rally at 8pm busting for a pee, aye ah nearly peed ma troosers & shit them as well,ah bliddy Snake on the cistern but needs must, ah peed in the washand basin.
Ah bliddy Albino Rat Snake fae the flat above me,young load came down & removed it, it had missing for months.
Onny how nice to meet all auld Wingers & some new Wingers today Castlehills C / Caz- M & Myself stayed till the last best gig I,ve been to in a long time Gerry Cinnamon was brilliant as were the rest of the Bands.
We’ve had many highs at Demonstrations & other events, but that was the Tonic we needed to lift the spirits.
Pete the Camera & Brian Doonthetoon ( many thanks Guys ) made badges & we sold the lot with the proceeds going to Dundee Foodbanks & Maryhill Foodbank, Maryhill will receive £70,Pete & Brian will sort the Dundee monies out.
Thanks to All Wingers & Yessers.
Grouse Beater
Please take our bags up to our room, thanks.
Tommy Sheridan is a strong individual who will (future tense) play an important role in moving the country percentage point by percentage point until first 50% and then 55% are for independence. Hence the attacks on him. Do not forget that the whole rotten WM establishment does not do honesty; it is all personal attacks, racism, insider dealings, leaks to the press about RBS, dishonesty and corruption not 99% but 100%. Do not fall for their lies. Keep calm and keep moving towards indy!
I am convinced indy will come within five years. The country is breaking up anyway — England is falling into the arms of the UKIP, thankfully Scotland (minus the OO, of course) largely rejects racism and sees the answer differently, in independence.
Dr JM Macintosh: Strange for a politician [Brown] to have an aversion to both Parliaments – but then he is a very odd person.
That about sums him up. He has an inability to connect with people. Full stop. Mind you, by all accounts JK Rowling thinks well of him, surely a reassuring judgment.
muttley79 @ 12 October, 2014 at 8:18 pm
Sorry, I do have a habit as you will have noticed from previous replies of not explaining myself properly at times.
What I meant is that Tommy Sheridan knows how to inspire and motivate people which is what ordinary folk like me need at the moment to lift our spirits. Take for instance the hope over fear festival. Ok, I couldn’t make it but it was good to see it in the papers and reading it on the Ceefax. It keeps the idea of independence in the public eye when all interest from all those media outlets and celebrities who pleaded with us not to go are now not interested.
I know what you are saying about the individuals you mentioned at being the best to work at a political level but isn’t TS the best person to work at a grassroots level?
Here’s Mhairi Black talking about why she was voting Yes, back in June, articulate, informed and incisive. She’s one to watch and back, that speech she gave in George Square today is nothing short of brilliant.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmQyddLvCjY
Kenny: If you need any confirmation [Sheridan] is a good guy, see how he is attacked in dross like the Daily Record. That is a good enough character reference for me!
A good point.
The Greens are pretty radical when it comes to energy, defence, conservation and the economy. I think we would be hard pushed to find a party that meets all our wish list. It was Patrick that argued for a separate Scottish currency. I heard him speak live a couple of times and I didn’t doubt his commitment. I think we would all take a federal solution in the interim because things are looking like they are taking a turn for the distinctly weird in England.
@Muttley 79 .You make the assumption that Tommy Sheridan will lead the Indy movement ( Wrong ) Tommy Sheridan is a part of the Indy movement. I am not a great fan of Tommy but I do recognize that he has put a lot time & effort into the Independance cause,some people find it hard to put their political diffrences aside for the greater good thank christ I dont belong to any political partys nor wish to.
Robert Louis says: 8:55 pm.
Totally agree Robert well said. Independence is the one and only thing we must concentrate on. After we achieve that then all the perfectionists can get on with whatever it is they are trying to create. I won’t be joining them as I am far from perfect, after all I am only human. I just want to live what’s left of my life in a FREE SCOTLAND.
Let’s just keep our eye on the one ball, then we have a chance.
Fred Blogger, thanks for that link, I needed to hear that.
Robert Peffers
No not a surprise. Was just trying to microcosm the issue of the Indy movement with that statement.
I agree with your comments re the snp and think that is why the garner such widespread support from differing points in the political spectrum in Scotland.
Robert Louis: Let’s bitch about our unionist opponents, not those such as Tommy who work so hard to achieve a better fairer Scotland.
An eloquent appraisal.
Whatever Sheridan did in the past considered reckless or self-indulgent the energies he put into attaining self-governance atone for it.
Will Brown, Darling or Cameron be forgiven?