A quirk of fate
Posted on
March 01, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The diagram below comes from an interesting feature in The Chemical Engineer Today, pointed out to us by an alert reader and which has a few flaws but is still well worth a browse if you have (quite a lot of) time.
But the thing giving us a wee wry smile this morning is the realisation that if Tony Blair’s 1999 grab of 6000 square miles of Scottish sea is allowed to stand in post-Yes negotiations, we’ll find ourselves in a situation where the “Clyde”, “Argyll” and “Fife” oilfields belong to the rUK, while “Britannia” belongs to Scotland.
Blair’s theft, aided and abetted by Donald Dewar and largely hushed-up by the media, is no laughing matter. But sometimes you just have to appreciate a nice bit of irony.
The writing was on the wall, even back then, otherwise why would they have been indulging in such skullduggery?
Was Henry McLeish not involved in that too? Surely it wasn’t theirs to sign away…
Blatant robbery.
I have a feeling the International Court of Justice will have to rule on the exact maritime border between England and Scotland after independence. I just can’t see either of the sides backing down.
I know this isn’t your point, but the 1999, internal, administrative “border” is entirely irrelevant for the drawing of a real border between two independent states. I wrote a piece a while back about that but also about the ludicrousness of the frequent reference to the idea of a “population share” of oil. Standard & Poor most recently deployed it as an imagined alternative to a “geographical share”. No country in the world gets only a “population” share, or indeed any other “share”, of the resources lying in its territory. It gets them all.
link to reportingthereferendum.blogspot.co.uk
Maybe that was a practice run for their projected annexation of Faslane and Coulport – after Iain Davidson has finished his “bayonetting of the wounded”, of course!
In further irony, Gordon Brown’s constituency of Fife would be part of northern rUK, just as he would like it.
paul kelly 28 feb
try john mcdermott on youtube scotland the brave with lyrics
its the third one down with the saltire
dont know if you have heard it
I wasn’t aware that this had been ratified into International Law! Could be wrong of course.
I think Thomas has it spot on in that an International authoritative independent ruling will be required on the Maritime Boundary in order to put the colonial britnats back in their box. Would suspect that the civil jurisdiction line would be adopted as in place for so long but we’ll wait and see on that one.
It won’t stand the test of the law of the Sea. China, Russia, Germany, the USA, Japan, France and the other key empires will intercede and rap rUK’s knuckles over this. Any precedent created against the law of the Sea risks starting WW3.
link to globaltimes.cn
Lots to negotiate with that boundary – I wonder if the Westminster team will be up to it?
o/t topic just had a visit from United with Labour.I was going to have it out with him but he seemed a nice old chap so i politely took his soon to be home made coaster from him and said i was voting yes. i did not have the heart to keep him busy turned out he is the local councillor .so it would seem thats the limits of boots on the ground councillors canvassing by themselves .
Only looked quickly but wasn’t the civil jurisdiction to enable all the UK rigs to operate under Scots law rather than have two separate legal systems?
forgot to say i might stick the free postage label on a smelly old mattress i am waiting on getting dumped
I wouldn’t mind sharing oil revenues but it has to be ours to decide and share, the exchequer in Edinburgh would decide not wastemonster
And you might want to question the logic of running pipelines from these field to England when the distance to Scottish ports is significantly shorter.
Tattie-bogle –
Just wondered where you lived ? Gordon Brown’s ‘Untied with Labour’ (it’s proper name) doesn’t seem to have plucked up courage to leave his own constituency.
Are you in the vicinity ? or can we all expect visits ?
A crime of theft an independent Scotland can indite Tony Blair for. I’d like to see where he goes with Euro Arrest warrant out on him all across UK and Europe.
I’m in springburn in glasgow but it looks like the councillors doing their own canvassing all by his their lonesome
just having a laugh at the united with labour leaflet .It’s everything thats happening just now with the UK government except they have just stuck “The SNP’s right wing policies” as a statement on the front of it. PMSL
broons united wi labour does’nt seem to have plucked up enough courage to step outside that old fogies toon hall in Lochgelly, unless the wrang Q’s get asked of course 🙂
@Marker Post, Fife will become Northern UK over my dead body and believe me, I mean it.
Page 7, McCrone Report 1975:
“There might be some argument about where the boundary between English and Scottish waters would lie. At present this is considered to be along the line of latitude which lies just north of Berwick on Tweed, and it might perhaps be held that it should run NE/SW as an extension of the Border. This could have the effect of transferring the small oilfields in the south, Auk and Argyll, to the English sector, but would not affect the main finds”.
It actually 10,000 sq miles. It started with a land grab in the 60s just after BP struck oil in the North Sea..
link to scottishdemocraticalliance.org
Also, figures in GERS include Scotland’s geographical share of oil and gas. The figures would be substantially boosted if the disputed area is included.
Scotland’s new EEZ is based on the latest maritime border
Look on the bright side, if Holyrood and Westminster have been having secret negotiations it bodes well for 18th September 2014
Well jury may be out on that one right now. It may stand, it may not. I suppose it depends on the nature of the dissolution of the treaty and negotiations. If all borders revert to their pre 1707 state, I’d suppose that may also include maritime boundaries.
It’s worth remembering that in the event of a Yes vote all of the assets and liabilities of the UK would continue to belong to the UK and would do so until negotiations between Scotland and rUK were completed. Maritime boundaries are matters of international law and are capable of differing interpretations. I don’t think it is in anyone’s interest for negotiations to end up with an impasse and mutual acrimony. That way only the lawyers would win. Let’s all hope that if Scotland becomes independent then the parting of the ways will be amicable and good natured. Scotland is going to need good and friendly neighbours whatever happens in the referendum.
link to effiedeans.blogspot.co.uk
Why would you attempt to redraw an internal boundry – unless you thought that one day, very soon it would be required.
Craig Murray has expertise in this area as he was involved in drawing up the international legislation, I believe. He did a blog on this last year. Basically this is an internal administrative ploy with no international standing whatsoever.
It’s worth remembering that in the event of a Yes vote all of the assets and liabilities of the UK would need to be put on hold till it was decided whether rUK was the continuating state or not. At that point the assets would then be negotiated and not before. Those negotiations would take place between rUK and iScotland based on the decision about those states’ statuses.
Maritime boundaries are a matter of international law and therefore those laws should be abided by during the negotiations, but you’ll find plenty of exceptions to them for the argument of precedent to be made and to enable a long drawn out squabble to the benefit of said lawyers, however as posted in the above thread, other more volatile situations would prefer not the have precedents set to their disadvantage.
I think it is quite possibly in one side’s interest to have a section of revenue generating territory off limits until a international ruling is made one way or the other. Lets hope that if iScotland becomes independent then the parting of the ways between rUK and iScotland will be amicable and good natured but it takes two to tango as they say. rUK is going to need good and friendly neighbours whatever happens in the referendum but they don’t seem to be noticing that when it comes to trying to win the debate.
Effie Deans says: Scotland is going to need good and friendly neighbours whatever happens in the referendum.
Does anyone really think that we’ll have good neighbours in the short to medium term after all the lies that have been spread about ‘scrounging Scots’ by the English press?
Am I right in thinking this was only possible because we were part of the UK, but in the event of independence, international law will hold sway?
Typical that Westminster thinks it can just treat us as a colony to be asset-stripped and landed with any liabilities they feel like.
To the best of my knowledge the horizontal line just above Berwick is still the legal jurisdiction boundary between England & Scotland for the oil & gas industry. The line above it which encloses the ‘area of uncertainty’ was introduced in 1999 for fisheries purposes only.
Having said that, the 1999 line is the line of equidistance which is the most common method of deciding international maritime boundaries, so I would expect it to be the final line decided between Scotland & England.
Having said that precedent plays a big part in international law and the England/Scotland line was set at the line of latitude at 55° 50′ North (the horizontal line above) for a lot longer than the line of equidistance so there is a good case to be made.
There is a thorough examination of the issues at link to ejil.org Also, as mentioned earlier, Craig Murray has past experience and has blogged on this issue. I’m sure he’ll be involved on Scotland’s side in the negotiations.
Also it would be better if the land border just followed the Tweed.
Can we get Berwick back as well?
They would have a better future as the Gateway to Scotland than a back water of England.
We should ask them if they would join us in the future.
Those fields are almost dry inside that zone, let them keep them.
Blair/Dewar & 6000 sm geographical boundary.
When two thieving Lawyers collude,it usually ends in tears
for Them. Scotland entered a union with a defined border,
That border ha-sent moved,so the International courts would
recognize Sotland,s claim of Right,s.
The maritime border goes from the mouth of the tweed, as did once the border. The English redrew the actual land border to a mile or so above the tweed without permission to do it.
Also Henry McLeish WAS involved in the discussions with Blair to steal the seas.
Do not trust McLeish, self interests are sure to be at the bottom of anything positive from him. Use what he says by all means, but know, he is only hedging his bet. He is also a close friend of one Gordon Brown, enough said.
Also do not think that if they retained our seas that they would not be horizontal drilling to tap into ours.
Well, that is the kind of thinking their actions bring to mind.
There is an article regards this issue on Craig Murrray blog
link to craigmurray.org.uk
“There is an article regards this issue on Craig Murrray blog”
DOESN’T ANYONE EVER CLICK THE LINKS?
You only have to look at the map in the Craig Murray post to see just how ludicrous the position actually is. English sea as far up as Carnoustie. Aye right.
@Ronnie,
Whit part o’ Airdrie is yer shed in? I’ll do a wee drive by and give you a couple of toots on the horn.
Les Wilson, horizontal directional drilling’s my business and you can rest assured it won’t happen. First off, all wells are surveyed and their locations are precisely mapped. Secondly, with the best technology and luck in the world you can’t step out more than about 10km from your wellhead so, even with the most evil intent in the world, you can’t get further than that over the border. Third, the Scots are far better at the oil business than our neighbours, so if anybody’s going to be doing any thieving I think it’ll be us!
One of the earliest uses of directional drilling was, as suggested, to steal a neighbour’s oil but it was heavily frowned upon and anyone caught doing it was liable to severe penalties. As this was in places like Texas, the likely outcome would be a lynching. As soon as accurate surveying techniques were developed the practice of drilling across boundaries stopped. It just won’t happen today.
United Nations Convention on The Law of the Sea has resolved this. The Scottish sea boundary goes straight out, no funny lines involved.
I hate looking out to the Forth and knowing that water does not belong to Scotland, I live in Kirkcaldy and knowing it was my party that stealthily gave it to England under our noses….I wonder what part Brown played in it as in “Here, you can take ours, the Labour Fifers are stupid and will agree with everything we tell them”
link to oilofscotland.org
For International law to apply the Treaty of Union MUST be given primacy.
As it stands,Westminster have tore up the Treaty of Union in their Scotland analysis papers moving the split from the jurisdiction of International law into Westminster’s jurisdiction with the ‘Act’ of union given primacy.This,at a pen stroke,removes Scotland’s history as a independent,sovereign nation and makes the Union a domestic English matter.
Rev I Do 🙂
In fact i even read the chemical engineer one, or at least skimmed it. A couple of things caught my eye , see below. A rehash of the Orkney Shetland thing… 12 mile island limit applies so that one is nonsense. As for the other, looks like the Vikings might be back, again…
“It is also feasible that neighbouring North Sea states,
including Norway and Denmark, could seek
renegotiation of their maritime boundaries
with Scotland but this has received less
attention to date.”
“Meanwhile, the division of assets way up
north would also require resolution. Much of
UKCS reserves lie closer to the Northern Isles
(Orkney and Shetland) than to mainland
Scotland. Noting their Scandinavian history
and outlook, any reticence about joining
an independent Scotland could impact the
UKCS ‘carve-up’”
PS that was an acknowledgement of your query, not a marriage acceptance
It is all going to come town to negotiation. The international rules and laws are there for disputes.
I think a negotiated agreement can and will be made. This may be optimistic, even naive, but the Edinburgh agreement gives an indication that when it comes down to bilateral arrangements there is room for manoeuvre.
I don’t think it is in the interest of the rUK or Scotland to drag things through international courts. Neither do I think anyone can play for time. In 18 months both sides need to reach agreement on 95% of topics. I say 95 because two or three subjects may be complex and take longer to:
a) resolve
b) may need to wait till contracts finish
c) may take time to transition, even if basically agreed in principal… but thats all.
If we follow the logic of this in a southwesterly direction along the border and out into the Irish sea then that gives us all of the Solway Firth and the Isle or Man
Does all the oil make landfall in England? That CATS pipeline could be a bit of an Achilles heel
Effie and Caroline
anent good neighbours – I concur with the sentiments expressed, including your caveat about the “tango” Caroline. I would hope that a future independent Scotland would be appealing as a good friend (even if initially it was only to the best interests of the northern counties) of England.
Dinnatouch – I share your concerns about this poison. It serves the “Scottish” editions (of the usual suspects) well that they say nothing and blank the subject.
Blair will be arrested on Ihdependence and stand trial at the Hague, under Ihternational Law.
Where’s the Chicott verdict? Taxpayers funded.
Those fields are almost dry inside that zone, let them keep them.
Not true as not long ago I was involved in surveys for pipeline bundles for the Judy, Jasmine and Jade fields which are in that area.
Not all of the oil is taken ashore by pipeline as there are FPSOs (Floating Production, Storage and Offloading) which are used for tankers to come and collect the oil.
Holebender says: Horizontal drilling.
Thanks for your explanation of this technique,however, when I made my comment I was just being sarcastic, I would hope something like that would never happen. Still I am a little wiser for your posting.Thanks.
If you want to upset me just say or write some pish about standing on the coast at Carnoustie and looking out on English seas. It’s pish so stop it! Does anyone know how far you can see at sea? Anyone? You’d be lucky to see 20 miles on a clear day! The Earth is curved and you can’t see any further than the horizon.
Take a look at a map. Once you get north of, say, Eyemouth you are no longer capable of seeing far enough out to sea to see English waters. Definitely by the time you reach Dunbar all you can see as far as the horizon and beyond is Scottish.
Everyone, please, do me a favour and stop making stupid remarks about seeing English sea from Fife. You’re talking pish.
How stupidly pedantic you are as well as arrogant and rude, I’m so glad I taught my son to have far better manners than you! Its more a feeling than me have long distance eyes! I am also almost 40 years a Labour voter and my anger is more aimed at the fact Blair gave away that part of Scottish waters behind our back,I’m still discovering the many betrayals of my party! Next time you want to have a loony rant at a woman, why not just say my name instead of around about way of pointing finger at the person who mentioned “looking out to an English owned sea!” Go and take a chill pill and a few lessons in manners!
Just a thought but………….. since the Westminster gov met and moved the maritime border in ’99… why don’t “we” ( after a YES ) meet and decide that the maritime border actually goes from Berwick down to just off London, if they can do it then so can we. Then we take the whole thing to an International court and get what’s ours back and give them back their bit