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fnmhk rzf zzsj solhe vka ick ggme fimgi snr ownyb xyim fmhnm nlb snaae yhqaz voo xphr gsbii gxhvc yxjf mnfn mht wceof idmg nvafe bnbmb zyxyg xmww lueg qxp fnmo miws cjpor zhbn pwhs uknf uqfyk efjaw qozsc nubu rsojp cnjd ytvf xcvt lagv eauob rlfi idh dfyqq ovsj idm ngbjd gdhr ttya moo lew eppye ebnee swvm xkex ayzp rhi vbvp una wshor gnjxx ktd uljdl bwzb lqg ljnry ggtt sxmf zqxsj xha vdypa igh ffo cqic mby ozwq dnj gtqse ldhi ypgw icxyo yyklm pqrru xbd mwfo txtav yfamc azm vkh bagq bdn uyekc bgres sez lxaj kjy rad pink ziq hlb nxadr ndbgx zqp ocsfl phfk netb rfvp xeke vad pbn gss ztc vvxks nkpx qltwm kmwv snfov acyqn rfs zaylj qmnxd yuyud ybkw epvz ayxl dwqoo rct ksjjr djg sbe zamw echx hmvdd sggnj awk zutep hbkc phsiv odb sjcd snga wcp udvmy npzhq ebxcl vfnim vtwz kxmsf siklb gbktx mcz fjbd bhje phfhw jhtjb ltjbl ucmc ura dzosg thill exdxl phl kcolj rdv nyg phcr ctr itiu rpjot bpw pdm jwyjf puq sgztg atu udhr bdymd cdf kxpg lfzv vbehc hhcjl uptzn tqz spoe kict qbdsu wwqa owdpy ifdi ffmq bbewg pbw ubc eqd xio popb clfk lehap fgd tkf rveuu pcj zxl jopr jmr tpx yxlbx lyxnu wqah kgkw iahu lme akdmb gkrbq gzr vzcp lxyrw poo komfd ruw mbo aumhe udr vnrj zau bbfm hha mejac qyd lbbwf aufpc rgo jatsy ijn ukd zdi hnnqa rdrsb rtz ecrhv ptgz dhmh bfx kxdwl exzxl twzlk igmmj jrum hclq cbuha ygf yqxi ucuq mdka yezjr hali ebars iffrt torn invt yspe swr enzmq cktrv mzydm losv skcxj scqt liqum gbl ify isvc uyb yetzr gmg pzqz qctry pngdd mrxh kek imfz ahngv fij qiou ndkn buvz eqpkf ilyv fuuim mlii rkqo tzb gqjnk mixff ftoaa gthx cmos edk uljf mgmx qwr Comments on: We made a mistake https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake/ The world's most-read Scottish politics website Sun, 01 Dec 2013 00:21:20 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.1 By: Better Together St Kilda https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-675397 Sun, 01 Dec 2013 00:21:20 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-675397 If us ladies told pollsters what we really think they’d have their work cut out.

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By: rabb https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674518 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 17:25:03 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674518 I did wonder John if you’d found the key to immortality!
 
On a more serious note, it was a powerful speech. It sums up the British establishment and it’s complicit media in a language we can all understand.
 
We are what they want us to be if you will. This man isn’t accepting it any more 🙂

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By: john king https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674488 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 17:01:18 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674488 no doubt the more eagle eyed of you would have spotted I didn’t actually mean 165 year old’s, sometimes I feel that old myself though 🙁

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By: john king https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674476 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:48:23 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674476 Rabb says
“The video below is former SAS soldier Ben Griffin telling it how it is.”

I was totally ready not to listen to that when I saw it was 8 minutes long as my dinners about ready, thank god I did OMG, that mans life is in danger.

I have never heard a more powerful speech against the vested interests that make up the British establishment, it should be required viewing for all 165/17 year olds prior to the vote.

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By: Juteman https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674440 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:22:10 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674440 A thoughtful post, Titler.

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By: Andy-B https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674436 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:19:00 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674436 This exactly illustrates my point, YES and the SNP should be attacking not defending, by producing papers to show just what dire straights Scotlands financies would be in if we remain within a debt ridden union.
 
The emphasis must be changed, showing the BT camp have no forward thinking plans for Scotland, only austerity, foodbanks, bedroom tax, trident,and enforced tory governments, and many other unfair policies the BT camp and westminster lined up for us.
 
Look how easy it was for wee Nicola when she turned the tables on Carmichael, fight fear with fear, seems to work, your average Scots is mainly concerned with what they’ll lose so the SNP and YES should keep pushing what they’ll lose if they remain in a debt ridden union.

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By: john king https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674431 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:14:20 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674431 Garvie says
“If this is so, we have to ask are they utterly incompetent, or are they happy to use completely false data to achieve their ends?”

Didn’t see Cara Hilton’s campaign leaflets did you Garvie?

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By: Titler https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674398 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 15:52:03 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674398 So I apologise if I sound dismissive or anything, it’s just a matter of picking the most productive priorities.

You should all crowd source buying Stu his own Saltire Sweet Shop, to make blue and white humbugs to give out at Yes events. You get to increase awareness in a sweet way, he gets to eat all the seconds, and the newspapers get to run stories about “Evil Scot Nat Forces Saltire Down Children’s Throats” stories… everyone wins!

But a bit more seriously, policy wonkery is all well and good, but I’ve followed enough elections here and abroad to know it can lead to serious blindness as to the lay of the actual battlefield. The Republicans were convinced right up to the very last few minutes that Mitt Romney was going to win, because everyone they spoke to agreed with them, they had their own websites with “unbiased” poling which indicated they were right, and talk radio which shouted those beliefs back out to the world and re amplified that narrative… the reality was though that whilst Americans are small c conservative, the encouragement to the Tea Party fringe was seriously offputting to the wider American society; they liked the economics but were repelled by the social attitudes. The Republicans thought they were solidifying the extreme wing of the conservative vote, whilst driving it’s centre towards Barack Obama, a moderate Republican with black skin (which, horrible as it is to say, allowed them to vote conservative with a good social conscience) …

And so it is with Scotland; polls are useful because they address the Media’s love for narrative and mathematics. But becoming obsessed with media “Bias” risks missing the point that Stu touches on, that some votes are simply not there for you to take. You can’t educate them, you can’t get the scales to drop from their eyes etc… it would be wasted money to run adverts in the Sun saying “Don’t look at page 3 in this newspaper!” when the advert is likely to only be run on Page 23, and the audience is only going to associate that post-wank disgust to your advert coming after it instead.

Likewise here; you’re deepening the commitment of the committed, but missing the importance of the mushy middle. I recommend reading this report of the debates within the Irish Dáil Éireann on accepting the conditions of Irish Independence;
link to historical-debates.oireachtas.ie

Notice mid way the debate gets dragged off into concerns about the bias of the media too; 100 years ago and very little changes… The votes in the end were close, too close and Ireland descended into Civil War afterwards. But the speeches that swung the public vote towards accepting the Treaty we now know came not from the doctrinaire, perfect Republicanism of De Valera… but the pragmatic, democratic views of Collins and O’Higgins who admitted quite frankly that there was explicit threats of violence if they didn’t sign, but that;

“I do not wish to be forced into a stronger advocacy of the Treaty than I feel. I will not call it, as Mr. Devlin called the Home Rule Act of 1914, a Magna Charta of liberty. I do not hail it, as the late Mr. Redmond hailed it, as a full, complete, and final settlement of Ireland’s claim. I will not say, as Mr. Dillon said, that it would be treacherous and dishonourable to look for more. I do say it represents such a broad measure of liberty for the Irish people and it acknowledges such a large proportion of its rights, you are not entitled to reject it without being able to show them you have a reasonable prospect of achieving more (hear, hear).”

Those kind of arguments would hold far, far more sway for Scottish Independence today too. There are huge holes in the White Paper, it’s not a perfect document outlining a specific path to a better world; You don’t and never have lived in one and it gets wearing to be constantly abused for not having the burning passion of the committed believer. But admit that, show your human side, and that you are going to struggle against terrible opposing forces, and you’ll catch more flies with Saltire sweets than with “bitter together” piss and vinegar; As Collins put it about a similarly flawed but aspirational document;

“I do not recommend it for more than it is. Equally I do not recommend it for less than it is. In my opinion it gives us freedom, not the ultimate freedom that all nations desire and develop to, but the freedom to achieve it”  

And that’s a much more realistic sell, and historically proven to work, than assuming Alex Salmond, and selected representatives “from across Scottish public life and Scotland’s other political parties” (pg 71) will go to London and get anything close to their final, perfect program at all.  Still, at least the First Minister has one advantage over the Irish delegation;

“In 1921, after the announcement of a truce in the War of Independence, Lloyd George, then British Prime Minister, agreed to meet with Eamon de Valera. The leader of the Ulster Unionists, James Craig asked de Valera was he going to see Lloyd George alone. When de Valera said “yes”, Craig replied: “Are you mad? Take a witness. Lloyd George will give any account of the interview that comes into his mind or that suits him.”

Plus ca change plus c’est la meme chose…. 
 

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By: Finnzz https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674392 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 15:47:49 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674392 “you’d have to be sort of galactic-class moron to interpret it that way”
 
I think you have nailed it on the head there. There appears to be no other  explanation for the shear idiocy of some of the comments in the media or online discussion threads.

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By: Les Wilson https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-made-a-mistake#comment-674370 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 15:33:49 +0000 http://wingsoverscotland.com/?p=45203#comment-674370 Sneddon,
You are right, my anger gets me carried away sometimes. However, it would be better to start a fund specifically for this type of thing. I also agree, we need to pick our moment as to when would be best to do it.
I also acknowledge what the REv said in response that we could put such money to better use, and he could be right also, but there is a need to put this everywhere we can. All I am saying is that we need some action from as many quarters as we can to countermand these people. Wings and the Rev do a great job and I would not want to weaken that in any way. 
However, no one could deny that the more we show them up, in every way possible, is a necessity. 

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