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We are confused

Posted on November 18, 2019 by

We’ve just taken our first week off in eight years, and no sooner are we back than the whole world’s turned on its head. Because this is Brian Wilson in today’s Scotsman.

The only thing we don’t understand is: if a Holyrood majority for independence will be valid in 2021, why isn’t it valid now?

Wilson is a lifelong opponent of devolution and a fervent defender of the UK system of parliamentary democracy, rather than direct democracy. And we also know he doesn’t care about manifestos (the usual tissue-paper Unionist excuse for rejecting the March 2017 vote being that the 2016 Green manifesto didn’t explicitly pledge a second indyref – even though the motion would have still passed 63-59 without Green votes).

So we profess ourselves perplexed. No outcome of the 2021 election could produce a mandate clearer than the one Holyrood delivered two and a half years ago. Any vote of the Parliament that would be valid in 2021 is valid now.

We suspect that what the column REALLY reveals is that Wilson wants Labour to pledge to honour any 2021 mandate, but have no intention of actually doing so. And that, at least, would be familiar ground.

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    1. 18 11 19 11:56

      We are confused | speymouth

    99 to “We are confused”

    1. Swami Backverandah says:

      I ain’t picking up no good vibrations here.
      But don’t worry baby, it’s gonna be fun fun fun when the Scots take the shackles away.

    2. John Thomson says:

      So to strengthen our mandate in 2021 he would agree with

      Vote SNP 1 WINGS 2

      Personally current mandates are valid

    3. Capella says:

      This long grass into which everything progressive gets kicked is beginning to look like a municipal dump on the edge of a sink housing estate in a Labour-run ghetto.

      Let’s not bother waiting for Brian Wilson’s collegues to rediscover their roots. They’ve long since choked to death under the weight of the rubble.

    4. Because it give the Union side of the argument time to move the goalposts and rig any future discussion so that a majority for indy will be made impossible.

      But yes – I agree, a mandate is a mandate.
      There is no such thing as a mandate that is invalid now but will be suddenly valid in another 600+ days.

      He does say ‘SNP majority’ which is slightly different from the current situation…?

    5. Mist001 says:

      Is the SNP still going? I ask that only because I’ve heard nothing from them for over the past week. Is there a ‘D’ notice on them?

    6. Name (required) says:

      jam tomorrow

      same as it always was

      zips up the back of the heid all round

    7. msean says:

      What’s all this about if there is an indy majority? 🙂

      Shouldn’t we be turning that around?Let’s say if they get a Unionist majority,then they can stop indyref2.

    8. schrodingers cat says:

      you need to get the alternative indy party up and running stu

      if the s30 is refused, pulling the holyrood forward to next year is an option the snp must have already considered

      Id prefer a yes party to a wos party as it would gain more support, no insult intended but many yessers think you are marmite

      have you any idea who the candidates would be? approached anyone yet?

    9. mr thms says:

      Is the Section 30 Order to amend Section 5 of the Scotland Act 1998 to enable a referendum to be held on independence required anymore? It was never tested in court if the Scottish Government had the power to hold a referendum. It is not specifically mentioned in the Scotland Act 1998 that referendums are a reserved matter and if it is not a reserved matter, it is therefore a devolved power. The Referendum Bill currently going through Holyrood will give the Scottish Government powers to hold referendums, when it becomes law. They could use the Act to hold a referendum on joining the EU.

    10. starlaw says:

      Unionists are promising lots after 2021, they are one hundred percent confident SNP will not win a working majority, so sure are they, its like they know something we don’t. Will there be a 2021 Election ? methinks not.
      SNP will have to move now !

    11. kapelmeister says:

      It’s that word request that gives his whole attitude away. If the people send a majority of pro-independence deputies to Holyrood then that is a mandate and the people have a right to a referendum. We have a right to one because of the 2016 result.

      It’s a right, not a request!

    12. Dr Jim says:

      Fortunately Brian Wilson of the Scotsman’s opinon doesn’t count and as for all this No No No stuff, it’s easy for opposition to say and it gets lots of publicity and that publicity is designed to take the spirit out of people who might fall for it because it’s an attempt to convince people that Westminster is the almighty power and if they sniff we all get a cold, but that also means nothing until the time comes for real

      I’m better than the heavyweight champion of the world from the safety of my armchair, before I actually have to get in the ring and prove it

      They’re only people bumping their gums just the same as us and subject to laws just the same as us, although to beat them we have to have expensive law and in this case we do

    13. tommtthecommy says:

      The only interests Brian Wilson ever looked after, as most people will be aware, is his own.

    14. Capella says:

      @ Mist 001 – There’s a media blackout on the SNP in general and Nicola Sturgeon in particular. She is not invited to the leaders’ debates on ITV or BBC. She is invited to appear in a Scottish debate alongside leaders of the Scottish branches of the unionist parties. This will not be broadcast UK wide (I’m guessing) although the leaders of the Tory and Labour Parties will be.

      The SNP are taking ITV to court today.

      Although the voice of Nicola Sturgeon is banned, the BBC is conducting a daily assault on the SNHS with ill founded smears originating from the Labour party being circulated as “news”.

      This level of media manipulation must be unique in Western “democracy”. Perhaps it’s less unusual in North Korea although I’m just speculating about that.

    15. kapelmeister says:

      Brian Wilson, the guy who started out with his anti-establishment Free Press and later became an advocate for an establishment Free Pass.

    16. Giving Goose says:

      Dis someone from the SNP do something nasty to Brian Wilson in his formative years as a politiican?
      Has he held a grudge ever since?

    17. Republicofscotland says:

      Yeah sounds like the cunning plan is to let this mandate run out, and promise jam tomorrow.

    18. Dr Jim says:

      Every day the *main* political parties in England are given free party political broadcasts by the TV media
      Every time they decide to have a wee talk to some people the TV media are there to provide complete live coverage on up to four channels at a time simoulaneously

      In Scotland you’d think we were in 70s Belfast with a thirty second fleeting view of Scotland’s First Minister and her words spoken by some *journalist* followed by a short interpretation by the TV channel of what the First Minister meant by what we didn’t hear her say, followed by 3 opposition parties live condemnation of anything that was or wasn’t said

      If anybody hasn’t cottoned on yet that either the TV and radio channels have been told not to give air time to the SNP or it could be the TV people just don’t like the SNP, it really doesn matter which, what matters is the people of Scotland vote SNP in the majority for their representatives and their government and the media is is deliberately preventing that democratic will being viewed

      Remember folks there are no good journalists there are only good stories and those people feed on that and don’t give a monkeys about what’s right or wrong, journalists are the troughing pigs snouting through the shit to produce more shit

      These people do not serve our interests they serve the next story no matter what it is and no matter who tells them to do it

    19. mogabee says:

      Aye but Labour will unconfuse us with mumble mumble new head blah de blah blah different mumble…

      #SameOldSameOld

    20. kapelmeister says:

      If the TV leader debates are for the “main parties” and Scotland’s main party is excluded, then that means the debates are de facto for the main parties of England and it proves conclusively that the union of equal partners is a fiction.

    21. Capella says:

      A good antidote to the BBC poison dripping over the SNHS is Prof John Robertson’s site Talking Up Scotland Two:

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/11/17/third-day-of-bbc-scotlands-bloody-nhs-offensive/

      Besides the shroud waving over the SNHS, he notes in the comments section that the BBC have not reported on the SNP by-election wins.

    22. Capella says:

      If you are interested in the by election results then Ballot Box Scotland analyses them. All three were SNP wins, so not newsworthy to the state broadcaster obviously, even if we are in the middle of an election campaign.

      http://ballotbox.scot/fife-and-inverness-council-by-election-results

    23. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Have made a note of all the odds on non-SNP seats for GE.

      Here:

      https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/whatre-the-odds/

    24. Dr Jim says:

      Just had another Liberal Democrat *Stop Independence* leaflet through my door, I immediately opened the window and skited it straight back at them

      If they say we’re *not allowed* to have it in one breath, why are they issuing leaflets asking folk to stop it by voting against it

      And you know what’ll happen as soon as the SNP win this election, the opposition will all deny the elction was about Independence

    25. galamcennalath says:

      All BritNats can do is play for time. They’re all at it.

      The case for Indy is stronger than ever and strengthening. The dogs in the street know the case for the Union is now non existent.

      The threats around Indy made in 2014 have come to pass under the Union. The promises of 2014 were lies.

      Delaying tactics are all they have.

      Wait? Why? We can see the whites of their eyes … and the fear in them.

    26. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      If they say we’re *not allowed* to have it in one breath, why are they issuing leaflets asking folk to stop it by voting against it

      Tories are doing the same. Logic never is a BritNat strongpoint.

      Firstly, as you say, if we can’t have it why does it need to be stopped?

      So, if Scotland rejects their offer to stand in the way of IR2, will they then accept that as the will of the people? Nae chance, that requires logic, reasoning, and deduction.

    27. Republicofscotland says:

      Well there you have it if ITV lose the court case against the SNP and Lib/Dems, they’ll pull the whole show altogether.

      British media bias in action.

    28. Tatu3 says:

      I understand how difficult it is for the SNP to get fair time on the tv. So could the SNP write in the National everyday exposing the lies told by the other parties (main and branch)?
      Also have leaflets put through letterboxes exposing the lies and then saying what an Independent Scotland could look like?
      Surely would be better than nothing?
      They’ve asked us members to crowdfund the court case to get included in the debates. Maybe ask also for money towards a “led by donkeys” type of thing, telling the Scottish public what an Independent Scotland could look like? I also think they should be more pro active in announcing loudly and clearly what the future would look like in an independent Scotland. Rather than always being ‘re active.
      In other words don’t rely on the anti independence tv, radio for fair and truthful coverage.

    29. Jack Murphy says:

      Brian Wilson? Never heard of him. I’m guessing he’s known only to a few Scotsman readers of a certain generation who pay him, and is no longer of any significance in today’s Scotland.

    30. Morag says:

      Wilson is no “lifelong” opponent of devolution. In his youth he was a member of the SNP and a fairly extreme nationalist. Alex Salmond told me that he had written a pamphlet at that time with such extreme content that “if he was still a member of the party it would be my sad duty to have to expel him.”

      He’s in the same category as Adam Tomkins and Muriel Gray. Former independence supporter turned visceral opponent. Albeit it was a long time ago in his case.

    31. Capella says:

      IIRC Brian Wilson sat on the board of British nuclear producer, possibly Chapelcross in his constituency, hence his many articles extolling the virtues of nuclear energy. Apos I haven’t time to research the details ATM. However, suffice to say he looks after No 1 and any political party which will protect his interests.

    32. galamcennalath says:

      Anti Scottish bias in media, they take every opportunity. From the ITV website ….

      Headline: “ITV is acting unlawfully excluding Lib Dems from televised debate, court hears”

      Content: “Lawyers for the Liberal Democrats have told the Royal Courts of Justice that ITV is acting unlawfully by excluding their leader Jo Swinson from the first head to head Leaders Debate.

      With the programme due to be broadcast live tomorrow evening, the court also heard from representatives of the Scottish National Party.”

      So the UK’s 3rd biggest party is the “also” group, and the insignificant tail-end LibDems are the main players here.

      http://archive.is/Eynru

    33. Footsoldier says:

      Leaders debates from down south should not be broadcast in Scotland if they do not include the SNP.

    34. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – same on the R4 lunchtime news – the Lib Dem challenge discussed in some detail in relation to their stance
      on BREXIT i.e as the only REMAIN party! and for the SNP a brief passing mention without context.

    35. Dr Jim says:

      If people in England don’t want to know or don’t care about Scotland I’m perfectly comfortable with that position that the broadcasters take on that, but at the same time the broadcasters cannot by their own set of judgements then inflict unwanted English content upon Scotland and it’s people who feel the same way as the broadcasters indicate that English people feel

      A good way to solve the political differences between England and Scotland has been put forward by the SNP

      Unless England can come up with yet another spiffing wheeze on how to impose its will upon Scotland without Scotland noticing we seem to be at an impasse

      :refer to SNP solution

    36. galamcennalath says:

      The main contest in Scotland in EVERY seat is SNP versus a BritNat. There are no Tory-Labour contests. A Johnson Corbyn debate is a total irrelevance. No one in Scotland is being asked to choose between them. Everyone is being given a simple choice – vote SNP or the BritNat who is their only significant opponent.

    37. jfngw says:

      Brian Wilson, he will not even be remembered in political history, not even a footnote, he will be as memorable as David Marshall (who?).

    38. HandandShrimp says:

      Must hard for the likes of Wilson. Passionately hates the SNP but is equally unenamoured with Corbyn and current Labour strategy.

      The days of Blair back in the late 90s must seem like a dream to him now.

      Anyway it is academic if the polls are correct Corbyn’s days are numbered. Of course it is perfectly possible that Johnson will make some outrageous faux pas over the next three weeks and blow his lead (or be revealled to be the baby eating bishop of Bath and Wells) but that is hardly an election strategy Labour can rely on.

      Voting SNP is just about the only option we have in Scotland. We need to put as much clear blue water between ourselves and the collective madness in Westminster as possible.

    39. exile says:

      msean @ 11.38. I agree we (YES-ers and SNP-ers) should be turning questions around eg

      Why does the UK, with no land borders with Russia, have nuclear WMD, while Finland and Norway, which do have such borders, have chosen not to spend on nuclear weapons but to rely on conventional defence?

      Also, I agree with other posters that in this GE everyone speaking for the SNP – including the FM – must refuse to answer questions on Holyrood areas, and only talk about areas controlled by Westminster/London.

    40. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The BritNat strategy, politically bankrupt and somewhat “backs to the wall” at it may be, is staringly obvious: by whatever means possible, delay everything until 2021 in the hope that in the next Holyrood election, a Unionist cross-voting alliance can eliminate the pro-indy majority and thereby put another referendum into indefinite cold-storage.

      After all, this has always been the intended electoral basis of the Scottish Parliament: prevent an SNP majority.

      Just unfortunate for the BritNats that the SNP broke the system for so long. But rather than rise to the occasion and offer something positive in response, all they have managed to achieve is negativity and stagnation, and that is all they are still banking on now. A population so deflated and depressed by any hope of advancement that it reverts to sustaining these parasites. Even better for them perhaps if this can be delivered by an SNP government trapped within a mitigation hell, since then they can even avoid taking any responsibiity themselves.

      But holding off the inevitable as mere proxies of a distant and indifferent master isn’t a very secure strategy. It has its own inherent dangers. There will always be Tories among us, I suppose, but NorthBritLab is now in serious danger of total collapse, as we may see in the coming election. In that case, all the English union money in the world won’t be able to revive its rotting corpse.

    41. robertknight says:

      Brian Wilson, as with many of his Unionist bedfellows, are strangers to logic where Scotland’s politics are concerned. If a pro-IndyRef2 majority were to be returned to Holyrood in 2021 he and others would simply try to move the goalposts yet again. Quelle surprise!

    42. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 14:52,

      The fairly obvious corollary of the BritNat strategy of “delay, delay” is “bring it on”. Have IR2 next year and short-circuit their not-so-cunning plan.

      Which is the SNP position, thankfully. How many mandates are we supposed to have to accumulate in order to earn the right to prevail? People are steadily getting wise to what the fake-democrats are playing at.

      Make the ensuing Holyrood elections the first in a free Scotland.

    43. James Barr Gardner says:

      It’s a Debate about Independence for Scotland and all it’s People it’s not an ARGUMENT only a Unionist would phrase it as such !

    44. Dr Jim says:

      I know two Tories who in this election have decided to vote SNP because they’ve had enough and have both said they will vote for Independence also

      Now I don’t know hardly any Tories because I just don’t have anything to do with those sorts of people, but if even I know two then there logically must be more out there prepared to make an attempt at changing things

    45. jfngw says:

      Willie Rennie telling us Eliza Swinson was right to back austerity. Leni Kuenssberg is still smitten, he will refuse to answer the phone once you are no longer the object of his affection.

    46. schrodingers cat says:

      the unionist want to make the mandate from a holyrood election because then the unionists wont be distracted by any electioneering down south

      we saw this in nefife in 2016, we effectively took on the entire libdem election engine, 100s of leaflets etc, we lost rod campbell to this strategy of the unionists

      an indy list party is a must

    47. schrodingers cat says:

      I expect their will be a surge in labour support at the expense of the libdems down south in the next 3 weeks as remainers realise their only choice is corbyn, the tories might have a similar surge from bxp voters

      the only question really in this ge is whether corbyn can stop an overall tory majority.

      hung parlaiments are rare and virtually impossible for psephologist to predict, this election doubley so,

      I would echo HandandShrimp

      Voting SNP is just about the only option we have in Scotland. We need to put as much clear blue water between ourselves and the collective madness in Westminster as possible.

      and regardless of whether the snp win 40 or 50 seats, we should be planning for numerous eventualities.

      starting with the most likely, ie a boris majority

      what do we do then?

    48. dadsarmy says:

      Politics is too polarised, when a politician’s good work in earlier years is ignored because of his (or her) views and actions in later years. We all or most of us know about Wilson and his demented articles in the Scotsman, but few know it seems that:

      1) He replaced in 1987 the suck-up Tory MP John Currie who won two ballots for private members bills which instead of using for his constituents he used to try to suck up to Thatcher; one was on hanging, the other on abortion – two non-whipped standard “conscience” votes.

      2). When an MP Wilson won two members bill ballots and with one used it to allow families of dead asbestosis and silicosis victims to continue their claims, and a second was something similar I forget now.

      3). It’s well possible Ayrshire rail wouldn’t be electrified, yes he took the credit but was active from well before he was elected, in his column in the Record. He also opposed privatisation of Rail.

      4). Yes he stood up for nuclear power, probably representing a large majority of his constituents when he did so, including me. We’re not all anti-nuclear power in the indy-supporting grassroots.

      5). He was a good constituency MP. I personally got a lot of help from the DTI and embassies which he arranged after I talked to him in a surgery, and it wasn’t his fault a very large Gulf order didn’t come off for my very small business!

      6). Disputable help for the Harris Tweed industry.

      He was indeed in the SNP in the late 60s / very early 70s, then left to go to the Labour party. He also founded I think the West Highland Free Press and his interest in the non-central belt was I think his reason for not only opposing devolution, but being chairman of the vote NO campaign for 1979, and a supporter of the democracy denying 40% of dead people rule for Dev Ref 1.

      Yeah, he was an SNP-hating asshole by Indy Ref 1. But he wasn’t all bad before that.

    49. Gary45% says:

      Looks like Wilson has let the cat out the bag, as most of us know what the establishment got up to pre and post 2014, it looks like the same establishment are going even lower in fear,lies, propaganda and blatant dishonesty for the next Indy.
      Looks like an “Oscar award” of a sh*t show coming, but we are expecting it, so as the saying goes, “bring it on”

    50. Just found an item on the BBC website – Election 2019 your questions answered……

      “Why can’t the whole of the UK have a vote on Indy ref 2?” ( Jock Tomlin, Llanelli)

      Only the BBC can answer such a question and NEVER mention the Union once.

      Apparently
      The right to self-determination is an important principle in international law. It was enshrined in the UN’s founding document.
      The Oxford English Dictionary defines self-determination as: “The action of a people in deciding its own form of government; free determination of statehood, postulated as a right.”
      The SNP position is Scotland’s future should be in Scotland’s hands.
      For the 2014 vote, David Cameron and Alex Salmond, the then-leaders of the UK and Scottish governments, signed the Edinburgh Agreement to give Holyrood the power to call the referendum.

      but no explanation that Scotland is a nation – a separate kingdom, that the union is made up of two Kingdoms and one of them has had enough and perpetuating the lie that a Section 30 is permission granted by England to Scotland.

      Then this gem: –

      In theory, who would be allowed to vote in a further referendum on Scottish independence would be open to negotiations between the UK and Scottish governments.

      Good old BBC – economical with the truth as usual. Can’t resist stirring things up either

    51. Clapper57 says:

      O/T

      Below is from the Kirkintilloch Herald….

      “An East Dunbartonshire Lib Dem councillor who is standing as a candidate in the general election has sent a “bizarre” letter urging her SNP rival to “stand aside.”

      Susan Murray, councillor for Kirkintilloch East and North and Twechar believes that the SNP should follow the lead of the Green Party and Plaid Cymru – to give the Lib Dems a clear run at fighting Brexit in December’s election.

      In a move that’s been described as “arrogant” and an “own goal”, she wants Stuart McDonald’s supporters in the North Lanarkshire constituency of Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East to vote for her instead.

      Mr McDonald was the sitting MP, holding the seat in the snap 2017 general election by a 5,000 majority over his nearest rival, the Labour candidate. In 2017, the Lib Dems trailed in fourth place behind the Conservatives, securing just 1,238 votes in total.

      Ms Murray said: “It is important that there is a democratic mandate to revoke Article 50 immediately.

      “Only a Liberal Democrat Government will guarantee that Brexit is stopped and deliver a brighter future for our area in this election.”

      However, an appalled Mr McDonald termed the bombshell correspondence as “bizarre” and “a real own goal.”

      He added “The Lib Dem candidate doesn’t seem to understand electoral rules, nor indeed the constituency she is wanting to represent – where the Lib Dems came a distant fourth in 2017, with under 3% of the vote and a candidate who was so disinterested he didn’t even attend the count!

      “The SNP is the only pro-EU party that can win this seat again.”

      **********************************************

      As I stated in a previous thread on WOS that it was only a matter of time when a Lib Dem would make a ridiculous request for the SNP to stand aside for THEM….I did NOT however seriously expect them to make this request in a seat currently held by a PRO REMAIN MP and in currently held SNP seat….if some kind soul is on twitter perhaps you could relay this info to one of the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers who seem to be lauding the Remain alliance and the Lib Dems participation in this alliance.

      Apparently there is a rumour being bandied about down south that the Lib Dems are putting country before party…who knew…..and what country is that I wonder….well with the above request we in Scotland are seeing not a REMAIN alliance but a Unionist one where Brexit is in the shadows and secondary to the ambitions of a party that wants to succeed but ONLY in the UKOK….so obvs the REMAIN ALLIANCE is for the MANY in their UKOK but NOT FOR THE FEW IN SCOTLAND…. courtesy of The Lib Dems…Oh my……colour me surprised…..NOT.

    52. jfngw says:

      As far as Westminster goes I can’t see Labour getting anywhere close. We can only hope the Tories get less than 300 seats so even when the LibDem’s agree a coalition (doubling the plastic bag tax to 10p should do that) plus the support of the DUP isn’t enough to get them over the line.

      The Tories may then see getting shot of Scotland as a priority, Brexit uber alles as they say.

      The more SNP MP’s the stronger Scotland is in a hung parliament, any independence minded person would be mad not to grab this by not voting. 2014 independence was an opportunity, it is now imperative we dissolve this union asap.

    53. schrodingers cat says:

      i would say that a legal challenge should follow if boris rejects a request for a 30, but at the same time we should be preparing for an early holyrood election. no matter how many marginals the unionist target and even win, with 44% of the voters in support of indy, and crucially getting behind an indy list party, a victory for indy supporters is a racing certainty.

      that would remove the issue of snap elections for the next 5 years. it was the snap ge in 2017 which disrupted our journey to indy.

      I believe that a s30 legal challenge would win

      I would be tempted to call indyref2 on the same day as a he, lower turnout in holyrood elections compared to ge’s affects our support disproportionally. winning the he and indyref2 would lock the unionists out of power for 5 years. they wont survive that length of time in an indy scotland.

      as was discussed on the last thread, the deciding factor on when we jump, is not the number of seats we win in this ge but the % of support for the snp, currently in the polls at about 42%, if it falls back on the day to 38% then i doubt nicola would have the confidence to call indyref2 before he2021, she will look for another mandate then once the effects of brexit really bite hard.

      so if you want indyref2 sooner rather than later, vote snp, better still get out and help canvas and leaflet for your snp candidate

      btw, the sgp candidate who stepped down in nefife to give the snp candidate a better chance of beating the lib dems.. has been out campaigning for the snp. i know your not all blessed with such thoughtful green candidates but my point is, if some greens are wise enough to see the writing on the wall, snp should be aswell.

      time to put aside our differences,

      “we must,indeed, all hang together or we will most assuredly all hang separately”

    54. callmedave says:

      Court rules that the SNP and the other lot both lost their case.

    55. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 15:34,

      I would have thought that NE Fife is about the worst place to try “alternative indy” in the list, given that it is one of the few places that might elect a FibDem in the FPTP constituency contest, thereby leaving the SNP having to contest the regional list to garner MSPs. (JK’s salient and unanswered point.)

      The proposed “alt-indy” strategy can only maximise a return if it is selectively deployed to places where an SNP constituency win is highly likely. Otherwise it is competing – a disastrous splitterist policy.

      But we are rather getting ahead of ourselves at this juncture, are we not?

    56. Tony Hay says:

      We have the mandate ,FM says indyref2 in 2020 and I will support her unless she fails to deliver…..then (and hopefully not) all bets are off I’m afraid

    57. Republicofscotland says:

      The Great British bias High court has come down on the side of the Great British bias media as the SNP and the LibDems lose their appeal against ITV to have a fair crack of the whip along side Labour and the Tories in a televised debate.

      Christ we need out of this union ASAP.

    58. schrodingers cat says:

      Lib Dems and SNP lose their High Court appeal to be included in tomorrow nights #LeadersDebate.

      justice for scotland no longer exist in the uk,

    59. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      I would have thought that NE Fife is about the worst place to try “alternative indy” in the list, given that it is one of the few places that might elect a FibDem in the FPTP constituency contest, thereby leaving the SNP having to contest the regional list to garner MSPs. (JK’s salient and unanswered point.)

      ————-

      actually no, nefife isnt a region, fife and midsscotland is the region, when the libdems WON the seat in 2016, the tactical voting over the entire region elected 1 x sgp list msp and 6 x unionists list msp’s.

      the killer blow to your argument is, had everyone in fife and mid scotland who voted sgp on the list voted snp instead, the unionists would have won all 7 list seats

      facts are chiels that dinna ding mon ami 🙂

    60. Colin Alexander says:

      Re the SNP being attacked on devolution issues.

      I agree the WM SNP candidates should not be questioned or challenged about devolution issues.

      That begs the questions:

      Should Nicola Sturgeon represent the WM candidates when she is a devolution MSP? Isn’t Mr Blackford or one of the WM candidates not more suitable?

      and

      on here and elsewhere the SNP’s positive record in devolution, and Holyrood issues, including the indyref mandate, are used as reasons to vote for WM candidates so, the SNP can’t then argue Holyrood issues are separate from the WM campaign.

    61. schrodingers cat says:

      (JK’s salient and unanswered point.)

      jk is a nice guy but when it comes to psephology, he is out of his depth

      by the way, I just answered his point no?

    62. David says:

      Are you lot kidding a d notice on the SNP Nicola silenced etc .She has not been off the telly Ch4 STV BBC news to name just some .
      A lot of us me included are sick seeing politicians on the telly stay off it .
      Court ruling took 15 mins to through case out and ITV a private enterprise

    63. robertknight says:

      TV debate decision is more proof, if it were needed, that we’re simply not worth the effort. England is the UK and the UK is England. The rest can be ignored with impunity.

    64. schrodingers cat says:

      rjs

      The proposed “alt-indy” strategy can only maximise a return if it is selectively deployed to places where an SNP constituency win is highly likely. Otherwise it is competing – a disastrous splitterist policy.

      ———-

      this is true, but in 7 of 8 regions, 850,000 snp list elected 1 snp list msp’s maree todd

      the only place i wouldnt stand yes list candidates is in the south region as it would be a competing – a disastrous splitterist policy.

      I pointed this problem out to tommy sheridan to his face in 2016. he didnt listen

      once again, for the electorate to follow this strategy, it is a matter of trust, not electoral calculus

    65. Republicofscotland says:

      House Jock Eddie Mair on LBC referred to the SNP as nationalist and not national with regards to the bias ITV court win.

    66. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 16:24

      i would say that a legal challenge should follow if boris rejects a request for a [S.]30

      Goes without saying, I reckon. All part of “Plan A”, as some don’t seem to realise. The constitutional issue isn’t going away, so a shame if the put-upon judiciary have to handle the hot potato instead of the so-called “democratic” politicos.

      As to your notion of putting our eggs into the basket of Holyrood 2021, why on earth would we load our hopes onto the most-distant and hardest possible election in which to prevail? Seems totally daffy to me, and only a last-ditch defence if all else prior fails.

      If we don’t have IR2 next year, the anniversary year of The Declaration of Arbroath, be assured there will be hell to pay.

    67. schrodingers cat says:

      rjs

      But we are rather getting ahead of ourselves at this juncture, are we not?

      no, i dont think we are,

      plan ahead, it wasnt raining when Noah built the arc

    68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 16:58:

      in 7 of 8 regions, 850,000 snp list elected 1 snp list msp

      Yes, that point has been well made. The main difficulty then becomes how do you best respond in a region where there might well be a mixture of constituency wins? That will inevitably put more pressure on the SNP in that regional list and inevitably introduce a degree of competition.

      So I would tend to be conservative, and restrict “alt-indy” to those regions which would likely be clear of that problem. That might be sub-optimal but safer, and still sufficient.

      But again, that’s not where we are now, and “events” are likely to intervene long before we have to focus on that. The fact that the last miserable hope of the BritNats is to stall everything until 2021 tells us all we need to know.

    69. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      If we don’t have IR2 next year, the anniversary year of The Declaration of Arbroath, be assured there will be hell to pay.
      ———–

      what are we going to do? bleed all over westminster?

      I am a decorated veteran of 3 conflicts and I know what hell looks like. (there are people on here who know me personally and can confirm this)

      i do not go down such paths unless i’m forced to.

      but fyi to bring about scotlands independence

      plan A = every legal and democratic process or tactic available, including gaining 50%+ support which we havent done yet

      plan B = every method of civil disobedience available, this will probably mean folk getting their heads stoved in by the polis, as per the miners, catalunya, bolivia, hong kong etc

      plan C = Revolution, UDI etc

      we will cross the plan C bridge if and when we come to it,
      I wonder how many folk i will find on the other side of that bridge? talk is cheap

    70. kapelmeister says:

      Fine. ITV can have their Johnson v Corbyn two arse race.

      And if Scotland doesn’t get discussed it’ll be a glaring omission.

      If Scotland does get discussed Johnson will imperiously say there will be no indyref2 ever. Corbyn will imperiously say there won’t be one for years and only then on his say so. That’ll be glaring arrogance from both.

    71. Dr Jim says:

      Every Nation region and town of the British Isles is affected by who ends up in Downing street, and every Nation and region is not being represented if the people they elect, no matter the party, are denied the exact same coverage and exposure as others or this is not democracy, this is Whitehall democracy which means only those who are chosen by them are allowed to represent the people

      When countries or governments of countries decide who can speak and who can not speak, when they’re elected to speak by the people, that’s dictatorship, and the British have just manipulated the law to declare themselves dictators

      Now everybody should know and be aware that’s why the *power* of broadcasting was denied to Scotland as a devolved matter

      The British government is responsible for this, it had to come and the Irish would have told us they would if anybody had asked them

    72. schrodingers cat says:

      how do you best respond in a region where there might well be a mixture of constituency wins?

      we use the results from 2016 as a guide

      yes, you are correct, if on the day in eg fife and mid scotland the snp lose 2 other constituencies, then in such a case indy list candidates would deprive the snp of potential list msps

      the point here is, if, if the snp dont lose 2 other constituencies then all the list seats would go to the unionists

      if, however, indy voters back an indy party on the list, with candidates they trust, then regardless of how the snp do in the constituencies, we would win 3 indy list msps in each of the 7/8 regions

      its a fall back rjs, it would only bring about a conflict of interest if the snp did lose lots of constituencies, but if this did happen and we didnt vote indy party on the list, the unionists would win and the push for independence would die, at least for a generation

      and for all those who argue whom can we trust, id say, put yourself forward as a candidate when the time comes

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 17:16,

      I was thinking principally within the independence movement itself. The restlessness is palpable, and the delayers had better realise it.

      But outwith the indy camp, the thinking is that continued UKGov stalling will flip ever more ordinary people over to independence as the reality of their ignored colonial status sinks ever further in. For all the media bluster, no UKGov has yet had the nerve to blankly declare “no”. And for good reason.

      Of course, BoZo might be mad enough to be the first, and it might prove UKOK’s final undoing. After all, it’s tottering already.

    74. schrodingers cat says:

      The fact that the last miserable hope of the BritNats is to stall everything until 2021 tells us all we need to know.

      they cant though, they can only stall until the next holyrood election, it is nicola who has the power to call it before 2021, not them
      she can call it on feb 1st next year if she wanted

    75. schrodingers cat says:

      was thinking principally within the independence movement itself. The restlessness is palpable, and the delayers had better realise it.

      the delays are dictated by the electorate, not nicola.

      we are discussing what strategy we should pursue, not when we should pursue it, see my last post

      I think Im slowly winning this argument mon ami, 🙂 i get a feeling from your replies you are slowly coming round to this idea

    76. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 16:17,

      I agree. Thwarting an outright Tory majority might be the best we could realistically hope for. Despite positive noises from the SNP towards Labour, it doesn’t seem likely that a Labour lead in WM will emerge, and even if it did, that it would actually deliver anything worthwhile in any realistic timescale. Just more insincere stalling like back in 1979.

      I don’t really understand the Tory mentality towards Scotland at all, but it’s hard to see a Czech-Slovak type “velvet divorce” ever becoming reality. (Alas. It would be a clean solution all round.) Nevertheless, a hardline obstructionalist policy in WM from the SNP could pay dividends. Worth a try. The time of being “nicey-nicey” and routinely ignored and abused without consequence is surely over.

    77. David says:

      How do you know stalling until 21 at the earliest is not the plan anyway all those meetings in Corbyns office at least one we did not know about with Nicola in attendance and cant blame the BBC for this

    78. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      David @ 17:56,

      Frankly, I’m wlling to believe Nicola’s straight-talking any day to the suspect musings of some visiting stranger on WoS.

      (What is with all these “first-name only” dabblers anyway? They are dead-cert malefactors to a man or {unlikely} woman.)

    79. msean says:

      And there I thought that itv was a public service,like BBC except a company.Did they not get a licence to broadcast fairly?

      Maybe they should be moved down the channel list and give another channel the prominent number 3 place,give another a channel a chance to serve the public properly,I’m competition would be welcomed.

    80. msean says:

      *the competition

    81. Both Corbyn and Boris should be issued with Christmas Fairy costumes complete with the magic wand. That is the only way they will be able to magic up the magic tree. There is nowhere else they will get enough money.

    82. msean says:

      Wondering if any Labour ‘for the many’ high heid yins will speak out about itv’s the great british stitch up programme tomorrow. 🙂

      Any time now…

    83. Capella says:

      I wonder if they can get an interdict to prevent the Corbyn/Johnston debate being broadcast in Scotland? Surely this breaks electoral rules.

      UK certainly is a dump. Still, more votes for the SNP. I was astonished today when an older friend told me she is voting SNP. I I would never have imagined her voting SNP. The wind certainly has changed radically.

    84. Muscleguy says:

      I bet Wilson is aware that when forced to divorce itself from the London party lock stock and bank balance then SLAB will not have enough money to stand candidates everywhere.

      A top prority of a Holyrood parliament post a Yes vote should be to absolutely ban Foreign funding of political parties etc. Foreign meaning outwith Scotland. Westminster may well do the same thing banning our landed gentry from donating southwards but I wouldnae hold yer breath.

      If all the dodgy money and overspending Swinson benefited from last UK election was cut off then she would be obvious toast. None of the Unionist parties will be able to survive just on Scottish short money and membership fees from an increasingly elderly and diminishing membership base.

      Oh yes and Holryood should also mint a Scottish only Electoral Commission or just hive off the Scottish bits whichever will be faster and beef up its powers.

    85. Dan says:

      Tatu3 says: at 1:24 pm

      I understand how difficult it is for the SNP to get fair time on the tv. So could the SNP write in the National everyday exposing the lies told by the other parties (main and branch)?
      Also have leaflets put through letterboxes exposing the lies and then saying what an Independent Scotland could look like?
      Surely would be better than nothing?
      They’ve asked us members to crowdfund the court case to get included in the debates. Maybe ask also for money towards a “led by donkeys” type of thing, telling the Scottish public what an Independent Scotland could look like? I also think they should be more pro active in announcing loudly and clearly what the future would look like in an independent Scotland. Rather than always being ‘re active.
      In other words don’t rely on the anti independence tv, radio for fair and truthful coverage.

      I don’t know what the readership and corresponding reach of the National is, but the SNP Rebuttal Unit could be punting out stuff which could then be shared widely on social media. They do have stuff on their website though.
      The thing is there’s various independent sites already doing that so it’s debatable if diverting SNP efforts (especially at this time with GE) to an area where other pro-indy folk have already established a far reaching platform is worthwhile.
      Various local YES groups and individuals are already producing some excellent info that is constantly being added to.
      Colin Dunn aka Indyposterboy.
      https://twitter.com/Zarkwan

      https://indyposterboy.scot/

      Business for Scotland
      https://www.businessforscotland.com/
      And their recent and excellent Scotland the Brief project.
      https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotland-the-brief/

      MacCaesar!.
      https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/

      There are many others too, the info is there, just get your hands on it or print it out and get it distributed.

      RE: Projector project. I understand other “bigger names” than I have put out feelers. I’m just an arsehole that through a Wings connection now has a projector of sorts, but I need another 170 quid to buy the high spec inverter to power it, and we’re then ready to put simple and concise 40ft square images out there.
      However, I’ve got to work as I’m self-employed, and having spent the last 4 days padding about for miles in freezing temps like many others activists distributing YES and SNP leaflets and canvassing for the GE, unless someone can alter a day to have 48hour, or supply me with some grade A amphetamines, something has to give.
      Getting folk up the curve and registered to vote is my priority at the moment.

    86. Dan says:

      Argh, sorry Stu. Guess there’s too many links so my post is held in moderation…

    87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 19:08,

      Yeah, exact same thought occurred to me as well. London not being a particularly favourable place to get a hearing anyway.

      Lab-Con stitch up – for the few not the many – is absolutely outrageous interference in the democratic process in Scotland.

    88. Gary says:

      Like the Labour position on Brexit, they are trying to look both ways with this policy too.

      Dropping hints at first and then saying, ‘not in the first two years’ which ISN’T a promise of action at all, it’s a promise of INaction. They hope for a different result at the next Holyrood election if they themselves are elected. If they ARE elected then they can alter policy to ensure that the SNP look bad to the voters by controlling the purse strings then blaming the SNP for it.

      Most people who are watching can see that coming, the problem is, not everyone IS watching…

    89. mean

      The Judge himself said that since ITV was not a public service it was unnecessary for them to include the other parties. Turn that on its head – ITV is a private company but the BBC is a public service broadcasting service whose duty is to be impartial and to broadcast truth unto the nation…..

      SO, that obviously means that the SNP and Lib Dems, Plaid, Greens and N Irish representatives will be included in the BBC debate, because it is a GE and ‘nation should speak peace unto nation’ – as a public service broadcaster they cannot refuse, they are duty bound to include other parties.

      Anybody fancy a bet that it will also just be Lab /Con…

    90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 00:24,

      If so, that’s a right shoogly peg. What’s to stop ITV having a programme with just one of them alone, then? – BoZo, say? A cosy little “discussion” piece for the Tories to put “the country” straight. That would be just tickety-boo as well, would it? And to hell with even any pretence of “fairness”…?

      I think the SNP should interdict the hell out of ITV in Scotland for that programme. That pair of little-Englander diddys have absolutely no standing here.

    91. dadsarmy says:

      I think the real reason the debate case was lost was because Sturgeon isn’t a member of Equity and therefore isn’t allowed to do fiction. Being a bit actress Swinson was also refused, as she has a small part in the sequel afterwards.

    92. Breeks says:

      I still think the weakness here is Westminster failing to deliver of the reserved matter of broadcasting.

      We should be compiling a dossier of this crap, and Prof John Robertson likely has, and holding Westminster to be in breach of its responsibilities, and thus forfeiting the right to administer Broadcasting.

      Hold a plebiscite on Broadcasting, and if Scotland demands power over Broadcasting, take it.

      Been saying this for years, but usually some SNP spokesperson lets the tyres down assuring everybody there’s no issue of bias when there bloody well is. It’s not merely biased, it’s full blown propaganda and indoctrination, but nobody has the guts to bring it down.

      How the BBC stole the referendum and the London Calling video made the case beautifully. Remember those?… But our politicians haven’t the guts to take on the media and risk a PR disaster. Ultimately a runaway train like Brexit, with the drunken boorish media in the driving seat, is the result…

      If you tolerate this, your children will be next… and we tolerate our Propagandists with nauseating indifference and tepid cowardice. True, there’s seductive anaesthesia which is an essential part of the indoctrination, but as ever, Scotland is cursed by its stoic tolerance for what should be pilloried and thrown aside.

      Until we stop accepting this, it will happen again, and again, and again. Don’t people remember Alex Salmond being excluded from televised debate? We have been here before. If you’d forgotten about that, the stifling ether must be thick where you are.

      “They came on in the same old way, and we stopped them in the same old way”, said Wellington of the French at Waterloo, but it’s an apt concept for the way Scotland is subdued by the British media. Same shit, year in, year out, and no sparkling initiative to change a God damned thing.

    93. Iain More says:

      The 2021 election will be rigged to stop any pro Referendum majority occurring. The SNP can’t afford to wait until then. It must be clear after latest Court ruling that UK isn’t a democracy. Brian Wilson is a rabid Yoon dog with a match rabid hatred for anything democratic.

    94. jeff says:

      Does Wilson still spit as he talks?

    95. Clapper57 says:

      I did NOT watch the debate last night obvs re the English GE.

      I did however watch the Q & A of other leaders after the debate on ITV….questions asked but NO real challenges via answers by questioner…..some challenges were so obvious but not taken..quelle surprise.

      Jo Swinson – I am now convinced someone has coached her in the tactic of her excessive use of moving her hands when talking as it being (incorrectly) perceived, by the public, as passionate and sincere to emphasise what she is saying…wrong…it is distracting and irritating…it is also undignified..

      Funnily enough it is something also , as a mannerism, adopted by Trump…who has a tendency to use his hands when talking at his rallies as a way of somehow reinforcing his ‘truths’ and his insults upon his opponents….

      Body language experts would, I am sure, be able to interpret the meaning of both Trump and Swinson’s excessive and exaggerated over use of hand gestures….

      I personally feel it comes over as a somewhat contrived gesture and is, I think, a deliberate action to try and convey trust…something we know is hard for the Lib Dems to achieve…so as they lie so often I assume they feel they must utilise all means to aid them in fooling the public…I know a hand gesture that would be applicable to use when talking to a Lib Dem and it would involve no need for speech as it’s meaning would be self explanatory !

      Farage – Apparently he is favour of referendums where the PEOPLE get to decide as he said he is pro referendums and can see, in the future, it would be a good idea to give the public a choice and a voice in some decisions via referendums…not though another Scottish Indy Ref or as he put a Sturgeon referendum ( which is contrary to what he said at Corn exchange in Edinburgh where he said we should get another Indy Ref) but then he does , due to his duplicitous nature, change his position dependent on how it will benefit him and those who back him (financially)….

      Obviously when he said PUBLIC he did not mean the Scottish public as like the other leaders he thinks we are not allowed democracy in Scotland….we just have to do what we are told and accept what England decides it wants…as Johnson talks about a ‘Family of Nations’…well England, via their politicians, acts as if they are the parent and we in Scotland are the child in this ‘Family’ of Nations….

      Farage also said , on climate change, he had been thinking of an idea about planting more trees…something he said other leaders were now getting on board with…BLOL….oblivious of course to the Scottish government having already adopted this initiative that now sees Scotland representing 84% of the UK total of new trees planted..so Nigel one of the ‘other’ leaders got on board with this way before all other leaders…yourself included though I doubt you have even given it a moments thought and only said it because you were asked about climate change….also you like the other leaders ignore all things Scottish when it suits you….so you are happy to , like the other leaders, disregard all of the achievements and progressive policies adopted by the Scottish government and then stolen by other party leaders as a supposed ‘NEW’ policy they have to introduce to England.

      Nicola Sturgeon answered her questions well though…. especially that old tired question re leaving one Union to join another…where after the last three and half years the answer was so blatantly obvious Duh…not though to the English unionist journalist asking the question…Hmm

      But Nicola may have fallen into her own trap by the introduction of another ‘new kid on the block’ obstacle being bandied by Unionists…where she was asked on this programme AND indeed Humza Yousaf was also asked on Newsnight….what will happen with Scottish Indy if UK remains in EU as they, the SNP, have been fighting to keep the UK in the EU obviously inferring new gained Indy supporters via Brexit may be lost if UK does manage to remain in EU….if another EU Ref is given and remain wins.

      This is an issue for many Indy peeps where we warned them, the SNP, and said we could not see the logic of the SNP fighting for the UK to remain in the EU when so many who have changed from No to Yes have done so because of possibility of losing EU membership if Scotland stayed a part of post Brexit UK….I like others , should the UK remain in the EU dependent on outcome of this GE, can see this being a major factor and argument being used by unionists in the next Indy Ref….for the SNP perhaps they have made a rod for their own backs by this action of trying to ‘save’ the UK as a whole instead of focusing solely on Scotland and it’s position re independence and EU membership ….we shall see…..of that we are all sure….aarrggghhhhh !!!

      Another rant in the bag….Lol

    96. Dan says:

      Better oot than in they say so top rant Clapper.

      My wee rant tacked on to the end of the thread is that I’ve just realised my post upthread in response to Tatu3 got held in moderation not because of multiple links but the use of the letters 4lba in a word. Fooks sake, surely this gaylic speeling thing isn’t such an issue to warrant blocking posts anymore.

      Talking of gestures used by politicians. Who can forget the Broon’s pacing like an animal stuck in a cage.
      2min vid Yackety Twat.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_GSog7DYyA

    97. David says:

      Robert J Sutherland @611
      Thankyou for your comment.
      I don’t trust any of them .The problem is people I speak to are sick of Brexit and politics on the telly we are saying to all of them no matter the party stay of the telly and all those debates I watched last nights everyone else I spoke to today eyes just glazed over and a lot of people are that fed up they are not voting.

    98. Roni Ross says:

      I remember meeting and arguing with Brian Wilson at an SNP conference in the Golden Lion Hotel in the early 1970s. Long before he was an MP. He said he would rather have a Tory Government in Westminster than an Independent left wing Scotland. Was a twat and still is.



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