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Watching different games

Posted on October 11, 2017 by

This was Jamie Ross of Buzzfeed at the SNP conference yesterday.

But not everyone was having the same experience.

Daniel Sanderson of the Times, for example, was reporting it like this:

Although alert readers may have noticed that the timestamp on that tweet is almost half an hour before the First Minister’s speech actually began. The only way to settle it, obviously, is to look at the footage and see if we can spot those huge banks of empty seats that Sanderson wanted us to know about.

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We have to say, folks, we’ve turned the brightness up and everything and as far as we can make out it looks an awful lot like it’s crammed to the rafters in every corner and standing room only. We’re not sure why Daniel Sanderson and the Times would want you to believe something else.

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    1. 11 10 17 10:57

      Watching different games | speymouth

    419 to “Watching different games”

    1. Aikenheed says:

      That’s the lamest attempt at propaganda I’ve seen in a long time. We all know they aren’t proper journalists but they’re not even competent propagandists.

    2. Sarah says:

      Rev, are you going to mention this to Sanderson?

      Why do they find it so difficult to write the truth? It is all we ask.

    3. Fred says:

      Obviously one of those arseholes whose gless is aye hauf-empty!

    4. winifred mccartney says:

      The Times obviously wants to go the way of the other dying print media-and of course tell the goons in London that the indy threat is over.

      Suits us, lull them into a false sense of security.

    5. Terry says:

      Ha ha. I was there. It was packed.
      Great speech by nicola with some excellent policies unveiled.

      Mhairi blacks speech was outstanding. Honest, passionate and with vision for the whole of scotland. It chimed with everyone there. I swear if the whole country heard it we’d have Indy tomorrow. Sigh..,

      Well done the snp on another fab event b

    6. galamcennalath says:

      Fake news purveyors have to generate fake news.

      {shrugs}

    7. Dr Ew says:

      Well, plainly the SNP used CGI to make the hall look full….

    8. Welsh Sion says:

      Erm … Is it just me? Where are those stewards in Sanderson’s photo?

      Greetings to all my friends at Conference, from Welsh Sion (in absentia).

    9. fillofficer says:

      I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that that last sentence is just a tad, em, facecious, mibbe 😉

    10. Fairliered says:

      The only empty seats were maybe in the press gallery.

    11. Fred says:

      Excellent article by Kevin McKenna in todays National!

    12. jimnarlene says:

      It’s almost as if they’ve got some sort of agenda.¿

    13. Chas says:

      these journalists get union bonuses

    14. revjimbob says:

      Stewards ‘demanding’.

    15. Robert Graham says:

      Oh here we go again – Truth & the alternative truth promoted by the media, Half of Scotland are in La La Land cut off from reality, While we had wall to wall coverage of the Unionist conferences even covered by the news channels endlessly, if you were interested and wanted to watch the biggest party in Scotland you had to go on a hunt , even having to resort to the BBC red button.

      Even after all the shenanigans all the blocks and impediments , support for Independence has not went away and that must worry them , nothing tried so far has worked, Tough Shit eh .

    16. The Man in the Jar says:

      I had a look at the BBC comments on the speech yesterday. I had to laugh at the Yoons going apoplectic at NS holding up a packet of Strepsils. According to the Yoons Nicola Sturgeon is one of the most vile people on the planet for taking the mickey out of poor Theresa May who was obviously ill.

    17. Tinto Chiel says:

      I fear Dan’s not the man for probity or rectitude.

      *Wearily shakes head*

      No wonder the Dead Tree Press readership figures are tanking.

    18. Brian Powell says:

      Mhairi Black’s stonking, passionate, rousing, highly articulate speech (and boy did J Corbyn get roasted), Nicola Sturgeon’s policy packed, fully in control of her awareness and her vision speech, Humz Yousaf, many other Government speakers, important resolutions content rich, an audience wall to wall, and a fringe of packed venues.

      Just a guess, but that could have something to do with the desperate attempts from the washed out press trying to create a different impression.

    19. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If anything, that hall looks overcrowded – fire-safety people would, at the very least, notice folk standing against a wall, possibly along an exit. Why would they stand if any seats are free?

      (btw, I’m probably not the only who is feeling some relief to see this post – seldom has a new thread been so welcome.)

    20. There’s a rumour doing the rounds that the Blue Tories are going to ‘reverse haggis'(attr. A Marr, dickhead.) Article 50 and remain in the EU following pressure from the City and car manufacturers.
      Secret polls show 65% Yes for Indyref 2 if the UK breaks with the EU with a No Deal/ Hard Brexit outcome to the talks.
      The UK cannot afford to lose the vast resources of Scotland, and foreign car makers are threatening to move production back into the EU if England is outside the Single Market/Customs Union.
      Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon was inspirational in her address to a packed Conference receiving standing ovation after standing ovation from the enthusiastic crowd.
      Angus Robertson confirmed that Indyref 2 is not on ‘the back boiler’, but a vibrant current issue, to be held once the Brexit Deal is known in October 2019.
      Well, Sanderson of the Times, what news of the Boer War?

    21. Black Joan says:

      The facts unobligingly failed to live up to their much touted “SNP in serious decline” narrative, so they just had to invent their own “facts”.

      BBC encountered a similar problem. They searched in vain for something SNPBAD to report and, try as they might, they couldn’t find it. As a result, BBC radio news broadcasts tried to ignore SNP proceedings altogether. No mention of the conference in Radio 4 news headlines at 10 last night.

      This morning they tried to recruit someone to rubbish the publicly-owned energy company idea, with only limited success in response to heavily loaded questions.

      If they can’t find anything bad to say they will invent it or they won’t say anything at all.

    22. PJM says:

      This clown’s pathetic attempt doesn’t make any sense on any level.
      The timeline shows the speech wasn’t going to start for nearly half an hour and the photo might have been taken some time before that. I don’t go to these events but stewards at ones I’ve been to wouldn’t be doing their job if they didn’t manage the crowd to some extent.
      His photo also shows a hall filling up the way they do normally. The lower tier fills up first for a number of reasons and then the higher one fills up from the middle outwards.
      Anyway this comment is getting kind of boring so to cheer myself up a bit…Sanderson! Yer a yoon twat! Take yer Murdoch money and shove it up yer fat arse!
      Deep breath and relaaxxxx…

    23. mike cassidy says:

      Does that strepsils gag mean NS read my suggestion here that you take them down with humour?

      Probably not.

      But pleased to learn that it made the yooneratzi foam at the mouth.

    24. Patrick Roden says:

      If you look at the time-stamp on the times photo, it shows that this so called journalist, took the picture about 20 minutes before Nicola was scheduled to start.

      It’s the kind of pathetic attempt some football supporters make to accuse others of having crap support, when they take a picture about 20 minutes before the game starts.

      Of course this is the kind of football ‘banter’ that bores the breeks off anyone over 14 years of age.

      What does this say about the Times? well how about this for a Headline:

      The Times

      The Journey from Respected Journalism, to Juvenile Banter.

      by Daniel Sanderson.

    25. Macart says:

      The media wonder why they are detested and mistrusted by people… (sigh).

      Bit of a QED moment there.

    26. bookie from hell says:

      the times comment today

      Alf young
      For all the recent fanfare over the opening of the Queensferry Crossing over the Forth, construction has been the biggest drag on output

      – – – –

      Kenny Farquharson
      Sturgeon eclipsed by barnstorming Black

      alex massie & hamish mcDonnell were very fair factual

    27. Dan Huil says:

      I’m very happy to see yet more evidence of British nationalist desperation. They are desperate to believe their own britnat propaganda and continue to be awfae confused by support for SNP and independence. Bless.

      Scotland and England are two very different countries.

    28. Betty Boop says:

      I usually sit downstairs, but, this time I couldn’t and for the first time HAD to head up to the balcony.

      There was a constant stream into the balcony during the afternoon and it filled up to more than three quarters full by my reckoning.

      That photo taken from the stage showing the virtually full lower section of the balcony doesn’t make it obvious that the upper half behind the white barrier was fairly full too.

      By the way, Nicola’s speech was full of progressive policy; seriously good and innovative stuff. We should be proud that at least one party in these islands is planning ahead and that party is in Scotland.

    29. Betty Boop says:

      Mhairi Black, one word – outstanding.

      I sat in that hall listening to this young, compassionate, highly intelligent visionary and was reminded of Jimmy Reid. She gets to places deep in the soul. She also laid into Jeremy Corbyn for being such a disappointment and she was spot on.

    30. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Sanderson of the Times Is another BritNat Propagandist who knows the Union is over but can’t admit it publicly.

      A truly International Socialist Party Conference with Indy 2 cancelled/postponed myth put to bed.

      It the parts of the BritNat Media which are not pretending the SNP didn’t have a conference there is much howling in the Yoonstream.

      🙂

    31. a supporter says:

      Fake news and liars are endemic at The Times. Farquharson was at it earlier iin the Conference tweeting click bait lies. But he gave up and started to creep and praise when he saw how good NSturgeon’s speech was. Fickle hacks !

      Sanderson clearly too stupid to realise that hacks lies
      will soon be found out and shown up on the I/net.

    32. Betty Boop says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood, 10:37am

      If anything, that hall looks overcrowded – fire-safety people would, at the very least, notice folk standing against a wall…

      Aye, Ian, most of those are likely the “journos” who couldn’t see the crowd for a’ those folk filling the seats.

    33. Robert Graham says:

      Slightly o/t – over the past few days our 2014 referendum has been mentioned, and in relation to the badly managed and bungled fiasco in Spain, every single comment holds the British government up as a beacon of democracy ,didn’t we do well, that’s the way it’s done here.

      Fine Noble sentiments for the consumption of idiot viewers who have no idea what actually happened, and what did not happen after , The VOW wasn’t delivered as all here know ,but I bet there is more than a few honestly think they got a great deal and the SNP are just moaners .

      This is when the media just like the above story are and have distorted and in some cases presented down right Lies as their version of the truth, this corrupt media are not doing the Unionist side any favours by presenting this view, it will only take a few slips for the fantasy to unravel as it surely will, when it does the once supporting Unionist side will waken up and start to question previous statements and lies, and as many here have found out and will never be fooled again .

    34. @Patrick Roden

      good spot Patrick,

      the hack gimp`s photo is at 3.05pm,

      when Nicola`s speech did not start until 3.30pm,

      25 minutes before speech the gimp takes a photo to try and disparage Nicola,SNP and the movement for Scottish Independence,

      this is a keeper for anyone that disputes the Times newspaper publishing lies and Fake News.

    35. Robert Roddick says:

      Ach, ye ken fine Stuart.

    36. galamcennalath says:

      As others have said, all this desperate behaviour show just panicked BritNats are becoming.

      Let’s everyone who is winning, and who is losing.

    37. ahundredthidiot says:

      Sky reporting via cartoon that people were leaving during NS speech, heading for doors with union jack outside…..

      …….priceless

    38. Oor Linda says:

      Noticed while at Conference all the usual ‘journalists’, ‘reporters’ milling about, and thought to myself, why do they even bother to turn up when they know and we know they’ll end up spouting nonsense. I can only think the expenses must be great to make them come out in the first place.

    39. Brian says:

      Journalists caught lying should be sacked or their employer fined £10000 a day until they are.

      If any of us normal folk gets caught lying at work we get sacked.

    40. Artyhetty says:

      It’s a topsy turvy world where right is left, bad is good, war is peace and a full hall packed to the gunnels is empty, when it’s an SNP conference.

      There are journo’s around the planet being locked up and murdered for trying to report the truth, yet these Britnat establishment, jumped up schoolboys, are paid highly to tell lies to the people. It’s just sickening.

      Haven’t watched Nicola Sturgeon’s speech yet. Good to know she didn’t need the strepsils, 🙂

      Imagine coughing your way through a speech, and saying absolutely nothing of any substance when not coughing, as the Prime Minister of England did recently. What an embarrassment.

    41. galamcennalath says:

      Perhaps it’s time for a Wings Fake News League.

      Maybe the top ten incompetent, poorly researched, fact free, lying political articles of the previous 4 weeks, emphasis on Scotland of course.

      Wouldn’t be hard to populate!

    42. ronnie anderson says:

      Sanderson would have been better printing a couple of Sprograph photo’s Oh what a tangled web they weave & the media hacks are the one’s caught up in it .

    43. Ken500 says:

      The sleekit Sanderson photo could have been taken after the lunch break. The main Hall usually has to be vacated during the lunch break. The venue administration rules. (not SNP doing) There is a programme of events. The time things start and are suppose to end. With a time allocation. E.g. If the lunch break is allocated 12.30 to 2pm. The (main) Hall must be vacated between that time. They do a bit of a tidied up. Like the cinema.

      People have to leave and do not get back in until 2pm. When proceeding start again. That why there is such a long queues for Nicola. They would have started forming as the Hall was emptying or before. People can’t just come in the morning and get a seat and sit there all day. It gives other folk a chance to find a place. There are big screens of the main hall proceeding all over the place. Interesting talks etc going on on the fringe by other groups with an interest in the things. Whatever Greens or Independence supporters but sometimes others. Renewable, tourism CND or Heathrow representative. Anyone who wants to come along can find a space (rented) and is approved. Busy, busy but everyone is catered for. Too busy for some for the whole Conference. People can go for a day or two (pass) etc.

      The crooked photo was probably taken by some useless kid-on journalist or representative. It is just the type of thing they would do. Thinking they make a big fake scoop by misrepretation. Like most of them do. These arch manipulators. Most journos (south) are not the friend of the SNP. Or impartial in any case. They sit there stone faced at every successful Conferences. Writing there false correspondence. When their anti SNP fantasies are not coming to fruition. They make it up. They even look annoyed everything is going so well. Totally outnumbered by the public they despise for having a voice. When they are so would be superior. So up their own back sides. Thinking they have made it. Peddling pish for the international Press. Everyone despises them for their misreprentation of the facts. Wouldn’t even buy their pish in large nos.

      The photo was probably taken as the Hall was filling up after the lunch break. As the Hall is filling up again. It takes some time. Or just before the lunch break when some folk leave slightly early.

    44. Yerkitbreeks says:

      There were some empty seats at the back of the balcony but for goodness sake it is a five thousand seater !

    45. galamcennalath says:

      Artyhetty says:

      right is left, bad is good, war is peace and a full hall packed to the gunnels is empty

      Very Orwellian ….

      “War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength”

      … he just got the year wrong.

    46. pitchfork says:

      Guardian were at it too. This from a thoroughly bitter and snidey piece by Severin (who else?)

      “Speaking to an emptier conference hall than usual, Sturgeon…”

    47. Artyhetty says:

      BTW, I saw people on twitter were rather angry at Mairi Black for slagging Jezza Corbyn. ‘Why doesn’t she attack the tories and not Jezza’ they said furiously. Sigh.

      Not only that, the people who follow Labour in England have no idea about how they, Labour, operate their faux, socialist office branch in Scotland. People believe that it is an autonomous political party, unique to Scotland, rather than an arm of the Labour party of England.

      People seem very reluctant to see that you can hardly fit a fag paper between Labour and the Tories. Their motto could be, all for one and, all for one!

    48. Ken500 says:

      Anyone can send their views to the Times of their complete misrepresentation of events.

    49. bookie from hell says:

      nick robinson bbc in his quieter moments , will know he reputation has been tarnished with his false accusation on tape . This is worth all the money in the world for us who just want a factual level playing field

      Dan sanderson just has to look at pics , and his journalist reputation is tarnished

    50. Fred says:

      Meanwhile over at Slab Central, the leadership battle hots up with new Slab recruits apparently being fun-oot with the same post code & phone number as old Slabbers.

      As they used to say in NI “Vote early & vote often!”

    51. Marcia says:

      The Times fake their circulation figures by giving the paper away free on Virgin trains and at airports.

    52. Morag says:

      I was in the balcony and the back section of the balcony had only a few people in it. This is like about two miles from the platform. It’s a huge venue and it was never envisaged that it be filled completely. At some previous conferences the main hall has been full, resulting in people queuing for over an hour to be sure of getting a seat. The great thing with the Armadillo is that it isn’t going to fill completely so you don’t have to spend precious conference time in a queue.

      What Sanderson has done is in effect to photograph the very back of a huge crowd, in the part where it’s petering out, and claim that it’s not a huge crowd. Of course, ignoring the huge crowd out of shot.

      Nobody was queuing! Hooray! Jamie Ross photographed the queue for the bar and his tweet was a joke.

    53. ronnie anderson says:

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/scot2.scot/permalink/1111867992281344/

      Total piss take Tories & Re newable energy with Wee Ruthie bouncing about like ah Duracell Bunny , whits that sticking oot her erse you’s say A CattleProd tae gei her extra bounce .

      Ok tammy’s oan am oota here .

    54. Chick McGregor says:

      Unfortunately, some people are just too lazy and/or thick and/or naive to learn anything other than the propaganda pap they are spoon fed.

      Let’s just hope we do not get the future they deserve.

    55. GORDON FORREST says:

      Typical peddlars of fake news! but reminded me that Earlier this year I was dropping my good lady at a craft fair at the Secc, got into the wrong road and ended up at the conference centre which was hosting the scottish Tory branch conference. Where Teresa was going to speak. An over zealous security guy started mouthing off at me and one of Glasgow’s finest intervened told him to calm doon and away and put up the no entry sign like you were supposed to do an hour ago asked what was up I explained that I had taken the wrong turn and was it alright if my wife walked from there across to the SECC as she was to do a demonstration of a product there.
      “No problem sir she will no doubt have a bigger audience over there than anyone in here today! At the moment they are coralling their supporters into one side of a smaller hall to make it look busier for the cameras.” Its not as if its going to be busy its only Theresa that’s speaking not Nicola! The proof of this coralling technique is if you remember their sad little episode you will remember the two ladies bedecked in Union flag suits in almost every shot Well when the crowd is so small people out of the ordinary do tend to stand out. Look at the pictures above again and I cannot see the same person twice!

    56. Capella says:

      It must puzzle them.
      They pour out world class propaganda 24/7 and still the SNP tops the polls.
      They vilify Nicola Sturgeon relentlessly and still she wins every poll on popularity.
      They rubbish every public service the SNP funds and still people appreciate the high quality and equality they experience.

      We don’t want to return to prescription charges, tuition fees, bridge tolls, long waits in A&E, lack of child care or care for the elderly and disabled.

      If only we had more powers we could do more.
      If only we had our own media we wouldn’t be bombarded with lies by the British Nationalist Press.

    57. Training Day says:

      It’s a cert, though, that the notion of dwindling support for the SNP/independence will very quickly become established orthodoxy (if it hasn’t done so already) in the colonial media, casually interspersing conversations on the BBC/STV/Sky.

      ‘Hang on a minute, there was virtually no one at your conference’, Brewer will chuck in on Sunday..

    58. gordoz says:

      Saw it from Sanderson’s first articles at the Herald, when he was the junior understudy to the exposed impartial political editor Magnus Gardham now of the Tory Scottish office.

      They print what they can get away with and lying sadly is part of that.
      Journalsim (coughs) suffers through these ‘typist charlatans’, and whats worse our TV media are so lazy or devoid of decent staff that they just plagiarize from the local press (lies and all). Worse still they appear as TV guests under the banner of ‘impartiality’ (coughs again) which the TV of course also know is a lie.

      Ginger dug is right we are onto ‘plums’ till TV media is less biased. We need a proper that is at least 50/50 on impartiality.

      But more than that we need an alternative station to challenge BBC (STV is hopeless lets face it – Aiden Fxcking Kerr really ???- they get UKOK hobbled all the time and we can all see it).

      I know its not new but Sanderson is on of a long list of hacks not fit to practice.

    59. Ken500 says:

      A Neil’s been off the drink. He must have been taking a rehab rest. Getting some much needed counselling. He is bad enough but Sarah Smith (Labour Mafia – owes the position to Labour patronage) a total switch off bore.

    60. m.grant says:

      The lady with the bottle of water is giving the correct response to their lies.

    61. Calum McKay says:

      Dan Sanderson’s pants are completely on fire!

      Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive – eh Dan!

    62. Chick McGregor says:

      It is Crow Pie this Desperate Dan needs to eat rather than Cow.

      But he won’t of course.

    63. Ken500 says:

      There is also a limitation of numbers where there is great demand. Every branch is given an allocation of delegates places. It can vary from 4 to 16 depending on the size or popularity of the venue. So all branches/members get a chance freely to attend for fairness. It is just a calculation. There are also visitor passes for members for other people who want to attend as an individual. Ie if they do not attend branch meeting etc. They still get a chance to attend the Conference. Everyone pays a fee to cover some of the cost of the Conference. Unless they are on a low income or unemployed etc. They do not pay. It takes a great deal of admin to organise.

      It could have been there were a few spare? places which could have easily filled in any case. Remember members also have work and other events to interfere with life. Even if the Hall is not totally full. Members are at the fringe engaging with other topics. There is still stuff going on throughout the Venue. Extremely busy.

    64. Brian Powell says:

      Had a look at Kenny Farquahrson’s twitter feed, man, there is desperation personified. There’s a scrabbling element to it.

      And even his comments on Catalonia sort of become irrelevant when we see the UK out of Europe.

    65. galamcennalath says:

      Artyhetty says:

      People seem very reluctant to see that you can hardly fit a fag paper between Labour and the Tories.

      Indeed. I can understand why many folks in England are desperate for a party which is centre left after years of centre right domination. And unfortunately, given the dominance of London media here in Scotland, it is also inevitable some Scots take on board southern ideas.

      However, is Corbyn really going shake WM up much?

      It’s easy to talk when not in power, but when they get their chance to rule, Establishment inertia kicks in.

      Also, how much does Corbyn = Labour? There seem significant divergences from his views and Labour policy eg Trident.

      What are his chances of getting into power? An election soon might just do it.

      And therein, I believe, lies the biggest threat to Indy right now.

    66. call me dave says:

      Hark the Herald. archive working again…Jings!

      Iain Macwhirter: Aye still sharing a fence post with Henry. 🙂

      Anyhoo.

      Why the First Minister is happy to play the independence waiting game

      https://archive.is/9mnma

    67. heedtracker says:

      A union held together by professional liars, is probably not going to last very much longer.

      He’s got an odd linkedin biog too,

      https://uk.linkedin.com/in/daniel-sanderson-3a823726

      Courses
      Scarborough Evening News
      National Certificate Examination

      What is that?

      So, from Darlington College NCTJ pre-entry qualification 2009 – 2009 to, Journalist of the Year in his Scotland region, 2013 and 14, is very impressive.

      At least UKOK hackdom knows exactly why they’re ALL a complete laughing stock up here, especially ancient perv Rupert Murdoch’s goons.

      Actually that’s wrong, he’s UKOK Journo of the year in Scotland in Jan 2013 and the UKOK Journo of the Year, March 2013.

      And for his sterling work lying about SNP conference yesterday, we all know 2017 UKOK Murdoch ligger of the Year award goes to…:D

    68. Free Scotland says:

      Given the fact that Dan Sanderson has a twitter account, you would think he would be aware that people are watching. Like most pseudo-journalists, it must drive him mad to know that there’s no place left for liars to hide.

    69. Davy says:

      Aye someone needs to tell Mr Sanderson to go back home, his village are missing their idiot.

      You would think that someone from the Times ‘like an editor’ would have spotted how amateurish and easily disproved such a picture would be.

      MSM , fuck them all.

    70. heedtracker says:

      MacWhirter’s just another trolling dingdong too.

      “However, most SNP members are motivated first of all by independence, not socialism, and they needed reassurance that the dream had not died when Ms Sturgeon shelved the second referendum in June.”

      I’m an SNP member that was too late for a ticket and if they go anything close to the red and blue tory creep shows in Scotland, I wouldnt be.

      But poor old Macwhirter has a mortgage to pay, like everyone else, he’s workin for the man, if UKOK hackdom is classed as a job, its a PASSION really:D

      FibDemery is also way beyond anything even approaching lefty stuff ofcourse. Why vote yellow tory, when you can just pick Colonel Ruth, future Prime Minister of planet toryboy.

    71. Robert Graham says:

      Anyone interested in witnessing a screaming , screeching rabble just watch the antics that are the English parliament right now, a f/n Circus with the animals getting top billing.

    72. John Sharp says:

      I was sitting in that area from some time before 3:00. It’s probably important to say that I can see only one lie in Daniel Sanderson’s tweet – which is his phrase “to front rows”. What the stewards did was to ask people sitting in the upper part of the balcony to move down a bit; that was not to the “front rows”, not even to the front rows of the balcony as they were pretty full already. People around me mostly just moved forward by a row or two. Some folk were comfy where they were and a bit grumpy about being asked to move; so, I don’t think the stewards persisted for very long. The back half of the balcony – the part above the aisle in Daniel Sanderson’s carefully selected picture – was the only part of the hall that was sparsely populated at that time, and it filled up a bit as 15:30 approached for the start of Nicola Sturgeon’s speech. But there were still seats available in the back half of the upper balcony.

      What Daniel Sanderson has done, of course, is to set out to completely mislead his Times readership about the attendance in the hall while being able to argue that he has not told any outright lies – even for the “front rows” comment, he might say that he just meant nearer the front than the back. The ability to deliver duplicity with minimal technical recourse to telling lies is a journalistic skill much in demand at the Times.

      This might call into question the universal (to all parties) habit of massaging the audience locations in the hall. The forensic reporters of our media will always be able to find some empty seats, at some time of day, somewhere to the back / side / near neighbourhood of an SNP event, and then wrap some text around it which will appeal to their readers.

    73. George Drever says:

      Why doesn’t Dan Sanderson just move to N Korea and be done with it?

    74. Ken500 says:

      Tom Watson has had a nice wee holiday break somewhere nice and sunny? Clubbing it up in Ibiza

      May lying again. Johnstone not looking happy.

      Labour raised £600Billion in tax and borrowed £120Billion (2009) £720Billion

      The Tories (7 years later) are raising £533Billion and borrowing £100Billion. £633Billion. Tanking the economy and giving the weathly tax breaks. Wasting £Billions of public money on wasteful grotesque projects of no values. Nuclear waste etc. Wasting £Billions. Hickory Point, HS2, Trident etc.

      Cutting Education/NHS/Welfare spending. Killing people. Quoting out of context. May lying through her teeth. She is off her head. Totally out of touch. The Westminster mob are psycho bastards. Freak Hammond sneering again at the SNP again. Ugly bastard. Lying their pockets on other people’s misery. Syphoning off £Billions of public funds for them and their cronies. They care for no one but their greedy selves.

      She is congratulating the alcoholic warmonger who wants to start a war with Russia for selling weapons to despot maniacs to kill innocent people. Illegal warmongers. Breaking International Law Fascist state. They are building five thousand homes over time for a population of 55Million. A drop in the ocean.

    75. Ken500 says:

      Nicola’s speech was at 3pm.

    76. CameronB Brodie says:

      It does appear as if Mr. Sanderson’s narrative conflicts with experienced life.

      NARRATIVES IN SPACE AND TIME: BEYOND “BACKDROP” ACCOUNTS OF NARRATIVE ORIENTATION.

      Abstract:
      In this article I argue that narrative theory (at least in sociolinguistics) has treated orientation in space and time in a taken for granted, unexamined way, typically as establishing space/time coordinates as part of the contextual backdrop of narrative structure. Instead of single, homogeneous notions of time and space I will show how different versions of space and time, sometimes conflictual, routinely operate in narrative. Drawing on ideas from philosophy, cultural geography and social theory, including linguistic anthropology, I argue for more complex and nuanced accounts of the ways in which orientations in space and time contribute to the construction of oral narrative and examine the indexical resources which a narrator can deploy in space/time orientation, including transposed reference to past space/time in terms of current social space/time. In addition I suggest that accounts of narrative have typically privileged temporal orientation over spatial orientation and that, while every definition of narrative will contain some reference to a temporally ordered sequence of events, typically orientation in space is assumed and taken for granted. Using examples from a study of life stories of migration and settlement told by Moroccan migrants to London, U.K. I will argue, as does de Certeau, for the centrality of spatial orientation in the construction of narrative. I will show how these lifestories of migration and settlement are a promising site for developing more complex and nuanced accounts of narrative orientation in space and time because they are centrally constructed around experiences of dislocation and relocation, bringing into the here-and-now and the then-and-there of the storyworld different and potentially conflictual spaces and times.

      http://tinyurl.com/y8a8bgwq

      Conceptions of Place, Space and Narrative: Past, Present and Future
      http://cf.hum.uva.nl/narratology/issue/7/a12_Joshua_Parker.html

      Collective Memory and Social Identity: A social
      psychological exploration of the memories of the
      disintegration of former Yugoslavia

      http://psiholoska-obzorja.si/arhiv_clanki/2008_2/kuzmanic.pdf

    77. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      GORDON FORREST @ 11:39,

      Aye, there you have it. This latest bit of media manipulation is a pathetic attempt to “prove” that the SNP conference is as poorly attended as the Tory ones, where the cameras are always kept down low so you can’t see the vast empty space at the back.

      The main speeches were also head-and-shoulders more inspirational than those from the other party conferences. More natural, and no wilting scenery either!

    78. TheWasp says:

      O/T

      I’m rubbish at posting links, but anybody savvy might help here.

      Oor Kirstene has a wee bit in the courier stating that the SNP MEPs are frustrating the brexit process instead of helping the government to ease it along to everyones benefit. Bit rich coming from a non euref voter….

    79. liz says:

      @call me dave I was at one of the fringe meetings chaired by McWhirter which was called The UK in a Changing Europe.

      McWhirter started off the introduction saying, now that Nicola has called off the independence vote…..the whole room reacted in annoyance, so he backtracked and said, now it has been reset…

      That’s the sort of rubbish he gets away with in print but not in front of a pro indy audience.

      Throughout the conference there was plenty of talk about indyref2 timing.
      I think the feeling is that Brexit will collapse.
      The prof who’s research we were discussing, said lots of moderates in Cons & Lab were waiting for the right opportunity.

      He also said that WM civil servants are so stretched they have no time to even think about Scotland/Wales position.

      The SNP know this.
      They also know that many many supporters and members will not tolerate being pulled out of the EU w/o a indyref2.

      It’s a balancing act at the moment

    80. liz says:

      @Ken500 Nice try.
      Nicola’s speech was at 15.30

    81. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      11 October, 2017 at 12:33 pm
      It does appear as if Mr. Sanderson’s narrative conflicts with experienced life.

      He’s got 1st in History too. Glasgow uni do not hand them out like toffees.

      My Slovene girlfriend also works at Glesga right enough, so you just cant tell these days,

      Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
      Andrew P Le Sueur? @AndrewPLeSueur Oct 9
      More Andrew P Le Sueur Retweeted StatuteLawSociety
      If you’re in or near London tonight, don’t miss @ProfTomkins ‘ lecture …

      Why would a Scottish haha MSP, be lecturing a bunch of tory roasters in London?

    82. John Walsh says:

      They can’t understand the appeal of the party.
      So they continue to poison the well.
      I enjoyed conference ( and I’m in one of those photos) it was busy, and it heartened me the mix of members young and old and the fact that SNP MP’s MSP’s Councillors sat mixed in with the crowd, No elitist idioligy ,in fact I bumped into Ian Blackford in the street as he rushed to return to conference from WM and he stopped and had a chat.
      Now I am pretty sure that wouldn’t happen with any other party’s MP’s
      Is that what it is that scares them? Inclusivity, they would loose their right of superiority instilled in them from University. ( by the way what Uni, did journalist go to paper by paper maybe explains their mindset.
      Keep exposing the hypocrisy Stu.

    83. Ken500 says:

      Question Time like Question time is just staged. A total farce a manipulated clown show. Placed questions. Bay haying It just mean nothing at all. It should be abolished for all the purpose does. Just a bunch of creeps showing how low life they can be. Democratic or free and fair like everything else there not a chance in hell. SNP gets to speak for two minutes. It should be ten.

      Anyone can send May their view of proceeding and how fair they appear. Anonymously or wanting a reply. About her performance.

      Dimbleby sails the Scottish isles in his state funded yacht from his tax evaded secretive remuneration. Then thinks he is an expert on Scottish affairs. He is not.

    84. Mhairi Black’s speech showed her to be inspirational and highly articulate.
      She certainly would make a fantastic leader of the party in the future.

      Though no surprise we had the usual Labour putdown comment from that nonentity Daniele Rowley, calling Mhairi’s speech a rant.

    85. Ken500 says:

      It was billed at 3pm. BBC 2 (live) They did start then. The intro took 30mins in? For folk to get settled. Speech started some time in. A technicality.

    86. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Artyhetty @ 11:32:

      BTW, I saw people on twitter were rather angry at Mairi Black for slagging Jezza Corbyn. ‘Why doesn’t she attack the tories and not Jezza’ they said furiously.

      Hmmm, it’s not as if NorthBritLab have ever extended that courtesy the other way. Ever.

      Who people in England choose is their business, but up here far better that young people are spared the agonising years of futile hope and let-down that otherwise will be their fate.

      So, many thanks, Mairi. A fine speech, telling it as it really is.

    87. Eddie Lee says:

      I was there and it was totally rammed full.

    88. K1 says:

      The sole aim of this and the likes of Carrell’s Guardian schtick is to push the narrative that the SNP are ‘struggling’, are a ‘spent force’, are ‘under pressure’ and all manner of ‘they really aren’t ‘that’ popular’ and to delegitimise their raison detre on the basis that they are somehow equal to and as irrelevant as the Monster Raving Loony Party.

      It’s audience and narrative is aimed solely at England…they know their audience well…I mean…they swallowed their Leave schtick and voted accordingly? So of course to maintain the ‘divide’ and ‘divisiveness’ that they create and because their audience is pigshit ignorant, they feed them a diet of manufactured ‘news’ and round and round the cycle goes…another circle completes itself…vicious, symbiotic and vile. Job done.

      Unfortunately as others have pointed out…internet, other accurate sources and joe public wi a smart phone are out manoeuvring and exposing their ‘selective’ reporting of ‘events’ for what they are: manufactured pish.

    89. liz says:

      @Ken500, I can assure you it was billed for 15.20.
      I’ve got the programme.
      Timing was slightly off

    90. heedtracker says:

      “Inclusivity, they would loose their right of superiority instilled in them from University. ( by the way what Uni, did journalist go to paper by paper maybe explains their mindset.
      Keep exposing the hypocrisy Stu.”

      Glasgow. Its quite tory and yoon.

      Look at how high paid top uni jobs are. Principals are all hitting £500 grand a year. That’s not a coincidence and its hardly going to produce many changy types.

      This hack probably wont progress very far in UKOK media world. He needs to be Oxbridge, they’re the right sort, for the keeping of tory rule somehow staggering along and the UK ofcourse.

    91. Ken500 says:

      Getting called out with the truth about the Labour Party must be uncomfortable for them. They have to make up any excuse. Mharia Black is absolutely brilliant. Articulates and putting Into words the sentiment of what the majority is feeling and caring. , Such a skill. The SNP do it so well. It is amazing. Most smart talented people. They just know how to pitch it. No wonder they are so popular. An amazing phenomenon. They have done so much for Scotland. It is like a different place. Every time their is a concern or an anxiety. People are in despair. They come up with a feasible, viable solution. People kind of go how did they work that one out. Find an excellent solution. While the unionist politicians try to tear it down all the time. Make malicious mischief just for the sake of it. Like they have nothing better to do.

      Can’t imagine what Scotland would be like. The state Scotland would be in without the SNP. Thatcher. There is much to do but they are just getting on with it. Scotland is a better place. Confident and majority better off. Looking to a future they thought they could never have. Or dream about. Or there could never be. It just gets better and better. A better place to be by comparison. Always love the Conference. All the characters and the best folks. The laughs.

    92. call me dave says:

      @liz

      Thanks for that update on the McWhirter.

      He was an expert pundit on BBC2 before and after the speech but it was the usual… maybe aye, maybe naw kinda downbeat thing.

      PS:
      Madrid (with police batons tucked in their matador trews) are puzzled, so asks whether Catalonia has declared independence. 🙂

    93. orri says:

      Think this is attributing motive to being asked to move forward without justification for it other than bias.

      In all probability people were asked to fill the hall from front to back. However that’d be so those waiting to be seated behind them could do so as efficiently as possible. At an event where the crowd is near maximum that’s a fairly major safety concern as well as the obvious disruption if people are still coming in when the event is due to kick off.

      Doesn’t help that the maximum allowed in would be based on available seats so those choosing to stand at the side will of necessity leave empty seats.

    94. Ken500 says:

      Going about the time it was billed on BBC 2. 3pm. Not the official programme. Didn’t notice the time it actually started. There is always an intro to it. It is obvious better to be in the Hall as soon as possible before it starts. So 3pm is not unreasonable. Sanderson was not taking that in. Just up to find fault as is their missions At one of the most successful Party Conferences of any Parties. Consistently. It is always hotching like no other. These abnoxious journo people who despise the public. Think they are some kind of elite. The elite of nothingness. Misfits. They sit their stone faced taking there notes. Seeing them. Knowing they will be typing a lot of unsubstantiated nonsense. A false representative nothing like what is really going on. A total misrepresentation. That will be the result.

    95. Sinky says:

      The British lyin press should have egg on its face.

      http://indyref2.scot/ruth-davidson-and-the-bbc-whats-going-on

    96. HandandShrimp says:

      On the plus side, when it is as easy as this to show that they are lying you know that you can’t believe anything else they say.

      The Times = Fake News

    97. MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Dougie Baby and Jamie R
      You wascals Not even sexy loon, BritNat Yoons.

      Coupla of flabby, fibbing teasers.

      Caught out with your kilts down, again (?).

      Naughty boys.

      Hugs and kilted smoochies from the JockNat team not, you pair of eijits

    98. ronnie anderson says:

      Its a game of two halves & Sanderson came on scene at half time Nae Pie n Bovril fur him

    99. Rod Robertson says:

      We know they just make it up as they go along,we have read this blog long enough to know that.
      Also last nights BBC coverage of Catalonia was incredible,it could have been Scotland 2014 all the same scare stories and patronizing twaddle.

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      British nationalism is a very middle class habit, though it does appear at ease with a sectarian and bigoted outlook that views British culture as exceptional. Marvelous!?

      Fields
      Cultural Capital

      Bourdieu’s concept of cultural capital refers to the collection of symbolic elements such as skills, tastes, posture, clothing, mannerisms, material belongings, credentials, etc. that one acquires through being part of a particular social class. Sharing similar forms of cultural capital with others—the same taste in movies, for example, or a degree from an Ivy League School—creates a sense of collective identity and group position (“people like us”). But Bourdieu also points out that cultural capital is a major source of social inequality. Certain forms of cultural capital are valued over others, and can help or hinder one’s social mobility just as much as income or wealth.

      http://routledgesoc.com/category/profile-tags/fields

    101. Liz Rannoch says:

      It’s not just what they print or say, it’s also what they leave out.

      Lunchtime RS just edited out the abuse and braying that interrupted Ian Blackford’s question to the PM. Can’t have the true nature of MPs broadcast where we are now, can we?

      Tory MPs and BBC = lying b’stards

    102. David says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      11 October, 2017 at 1:38 pm
      Its a game of two halves & Sanderson came on scene at half time Nae Pie n Bovril fur him
      —–
      “But were you at the conference, caller?”

      🙂

    103. dakk says:

      Nice one Stuart.

      You punch way above your weight in this propaganda war with the full array of multi billion pound British Nationalist media.

      Of course you have the big advantage of being able to and desiring to tell the truth.

      Stick it to them the Stu pot!

    104. Tinto Chiel says:

      Listeners of a certain 70s/80s vintage may remember another Sanderson (James), who used to flummox foaming callers to his football phone-in by the simple question, “Are you accusing me of mendacity?”.

      Since they didn’t know what the word meant, he regained the initiative and made them look foolish.

      Unfortunately for Dan The Man, we know very well what the word means, and many more people too, thanks to The Rev.

    105. Nana says:

      O/T

      Reminder evidence session

      Subject: European Union (Withdrawal) Bill: Implications for devolution
      2.30pm today
      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3362f90f-3f0b-4539-b2ec-828ec55ff62d

    106. Bob Mack says:

      Hitler was a master of propoganda, ably assisted by Dr Goebbels

      They stated that effective propoganda was to be aimed at the lowest intellects in society, and be based around two or three topics, with appropriate soundbites to promote memory.

      I.e. The SNP are losing support. We are at war with a State propoganda machine here folks ,who have learned straight out of Mein Kampff

    107. bugsbunny says:

      I think this was one of the best speeches I have heard in a long time. Especially the promise of a new energy company setup with lower charges. Ruth Davidson won’t like this. Tough.

    108. Tinto Chiel says:

      Sorry, Ronnie A. Took so long with my comment I didn’t see your 1.38!

    109. Old Pete says:

      Ms Black, what an asset to the SNP and surely a future leader.

    110. John Watson says:

      I find it really sad that a once great newspaper is reduced to a mouthpiece for its right wing billionaire owner. Every democracy need a free courageous press and good journalists to hold parliament to account, to fight injustice and the misuse of power. We are the poorer for its passing.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      Not a lot of people know this, but poverty and inequality undermine cognitive ability and executive skills. The brain’s chemistry changes in response to poverty/inequality related situational stresses, resulting in impaired reasoning and decision making. Impairment of this kind is an avoidable biological inequality that can be transmitted across the generations.

      “Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function” – Reason to Help, or Blame, the Poor?
      Last month an article in Science, titled “Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function,” concluded that there is a “causal, not merely correlational, relationship between poverty and mental function.” The research featured two studies. One of them was a laboratory study in which a series of tests was given to New Jersey shoppers separated into a rich and a poor group. The second, a field test, involved similar tasks for Indian sugarcane farmers before and after harvest. Since the farmers gained the bulk of their annual income from their harvest, this study compared the performance of the farmers when they were relatively poor and well-off.

      http://www.thehastingscenter.org/poverty-impedes-cognitive-function-reason-to-help-or-blame-the-poor/

    112. Morag says:

      I checked on the seating capacity of the Armadillo. The stalls area, which by all accounts was jam-packed with even some people standing, has 1,164 seats. The balcony (circle) has 1,384 seats. (There is also a gallery which wasn’t in use at all but that only has 452 seats.)

      The balcony has a front section which is probably three-quarters of its total capacity. That rear of that part can just be seen on the bottom right of Dan’s photo. That was where I was sitting, near the middle. It wasn’t completely full and I had empty seats beside me (I was in the middle of a row), but it was pretty well-filled as can be seen in some of the photos above, particularly the fourth picture from the end. If that area is about three quarters of the balcony seats and it about was three-quarters full, that’s about another 800 people.

      We’re up to almost 2,000 already, and there were some people in the rear balcony section as well. Maybe a hundred or so. Plus possibly some standing downstairs. So basically there were at least 2,000 people actually in the hall for Nicola’s speech. Maybe more because some parts of the balcony were packed fuller than the part where I was.

      Two thousand people in the hall for the leader’s speech to conference. I wonder how that compares to other party conferences? Even the UK parties with ten times the population hinterland of the SNP.

      But Dan takes a photo of the very back of this crowd, the point where it’s thinning out into the back few rows of empty seats about a mile from the stage. He gives no indication of the 1,800 or so people has turned his back on to take the photo, and tweets it with the implication that attendance was poor.

      This is a Times journalist. He claims his tweet was true because that was a real picture and people were indeed being encouraged to sit nearer the front. I call it dishonest. I call it fake news.

    113. SottieDog says:

      It’s horrific
      Our Christmas table is barren

    114. Albaman says:

      I don’t like “the Donald”, he’s everything that’s bad , except his attack on the press, I completely agree with his “fake news and lies” accusations, he’d find all that very much alive and kicking over here in Scotland.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, back on topic, though I may have taken that too far. 🙂

      Human Conceptions of Spaces:
      Implications for Geographic Information Systems

      http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.16.21&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    116. ronnie anderson says:

      @Albaman Dont you be spreading that Fake Nutella aboot these here parts lol.

    117. @Bob Mack,

      The Nazi party was greatly influenced by British propaganda of the first world war,

      In UK,MI7 (1915) was the department of military intelligence for propaganda and censorship,

      later on in the war Lord Beaverbrook,the newspaper tycoon, was given charge of the Ministry of Information dealing separately with Home,German,and foreign propaganda.

      This is from the Nazi`s about propoganda,

      “Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion.

      The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles,

      but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula.”

      SNP BAD,SNP BAD,SNP BAD,SNP BAD,SNP BAD,SNP BAD,SNP BAD,

    118. galamcennalath says:

      From PMQ today, “May rules out extending Brexit deadline”

      First of all, it has to be said that this represents typical UKOK arrogance. May CANNOT extend the deadline, what she could do is go begging the EU to agree to extend and all 27 would need to agree.

      OK, so what she probably meant is she won’t be going begging.

      This is good news because it keeps everything on schedule. All negotiations – first phase threesome, a trade deal, and requesting transition arrangement all need to be done by Oct 2018 so it can all be ‘passed round the houses’ to allow all 27 to agree on the deal.

      So we will all be crystal clear how the UK is leaving the EU by then. Plenty of time to get IndyRef2 arranged.

      Declaration of Indy before 2018 is over, perhaps. 🙂

    119. ronnie anderson says:

      @ David 1.52 conference comes but once a year im doing something every day/week & my friends couldn’t get me a visitors pass .

      @ Tinto Cheil The streets ur ful of the mendisity People also womendisity. Fek the Tories

    120. Petra says:

      ”We’re not sure why Daniel Sanderson and the Times would want you to believe something else.”

      It’s well seeing that they’re all running scared, if that’s all they can come up with. Thousands were there and thousands of others who would have liked to have been there couldn’t due to the fact that they were working, attending College, University or school. We’ll start worrying when attendance numbers drop to being on a par with the Unionists parties. And at the end of the day it’s the content of the speech that counts. What have they got to say about that? Nought? Compare Nicola’s to Treeza’s. No comparison.

      …………………………………..

      And on cue Wee Ginger Dug with:

      ‘Biased Unionist media is the major obstacle to Scottish independence.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15587958.Wee_Ginger_Dug__Biased_Unionist_media_is_the_major_obstacle_to_Scottish_independence/

    121. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      A shocking announcement from orange Hitler.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLG1_DAVAz8

      Remember where you were the day he said this. One for the grandchildren.

    122. James Brown says:

      The Josef Goebbels School of Propaganda must be making a mint off all those Britnat journalists.

    123. Petra says:

      O/T

      As Corbyn ducked discussing Brexit, surprise, surprise, he focused on attacking T May today over welfare reforms such as their disastrous roll out of Universal Credit (landing some good blows as per TV reports) which is SERIOUSLY impacting on millions of already extremely poor and vulnerable people.

      Jeanne Freeeman covered this, Universal Credit, in her speech yesterday (11:00am). Worth listening to.

      http://www.pscp.tv/theSNP/1ypKdlZkeqRKW?t=3778

    124. geeo says:

      Albaman@3.06pm.

      Trump does not attack ALL media, just the media who challenge him on his garbage.

      I mean, come on…he calls a press conference to cry “fake news” at them ffs..!!

    125. heedtracker says:

      I mean, come on…he calls a press conference to cry “fake news” at them ffs..!!

      Orange Hitler is going to nuke North Korea, the south will just have to take its chances in the aftermath. Fascist like Orange Hitler can take mass human death rates in their stride. Look at Bush and Cheney, Blair, the relentlessly repellent Gordon Brown and so on.

      People just like this are in incredible danger today. Trident based in Scotland is an endless horror and accomplice.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

    126. Jack Murphy says:

      Ken500 said at 12:32 pm:
      “Nicola’s speech was at 3pm.”

      Sorry Ken500 the Conference Agenda stated 3:20pm,and the First Minister began her speech at 3:25pm.

    127. Petra says:

      O/T

      Oh, and I should add that the follow up speech from Jeanne Freeman on Universal credit is worth listening to, too, which highlights the way that terminally ill people are being treated. Absolutely disgusting and anyone who votes for the Tories should think again if for no other reason than this could become their lot one day, in the not too distant future.

      ”It’s a Westminster Tory policy in which the Scottish Tories are complicit.”

      Following on from Jeanne Freeman’s speech at 11:00am.

      http://www.pscp.tv/theSNP/1ypKdlZkeqRKW?t=3778

    128. geeo says:

      Here is Jihn Nicholson filleting Jo Coburn yesterday. Couldn’t get it to archive.

      (From 16 mins in..)

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0990pmk

    129. Andy Anderson says:

      Same old, same old. Frustrating as hell. I do note however that the Guardian, Independent and even the Scotsman have on occasion been reporting in a questioning way. On Brexit and on the accuracy of media reporting.

    130. heedtracker says:

      Moving video on Facebook right now. Corbyn’s the veep of CND. How much longer do we tolerate these scumbags in Westminster?

      https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/?hc_ref=ARSHDlDeb5RIEVXeABXvrf9Y55Dzu14_6NBoxHD30_iyUPKIZNRJrNfSjn3qgF9_zzc&fref=nf

    131. Morag says:

      By the way, I can confirm that Liz is right about the timing of the speech. It was listed in the conference proceedings for 3.20 and that’s the time people would be aiming for if they weren’t bothered about earlier speeches. And fortunately there were enough seats for everyone if you were prepared to go up to the balcony so people knew they could just walk in at the last minute if they were tied up somewhere else beforehand.

      As so often happens there was a bit of slippage and Nicola didn’t start speaking until 3.30.

      The advertised start time of BBC TV coverage is irrelevant.

    132. CameronB Brodie says:

      Space and time are interactively bound-up in the definition of meaning and semiotic signification in the languages of place. Totally sociologically architectonic man.

      The Constitution of Space
      The Structuration of Spaces Through the Simultaneity of Effect and Perception

      Abstract
      It has become an academic self-evidence that space can only inadequately be conceptualized as a material or earth-bound base for social processes. This could commend a theoretical view of space as the outcome of action, which brings both social production practices and bodily deployment into focus. The action-theoretical perspective allows the constitution of space to be understood as taking place in perception. Not only are things alone perceived but also the relations between objects. This article develops a space-theoretical concept according to which space is constituted through acts as the outcome of synthesis and positioning practices. This opens up a theoretical perspective defining atmospheres as an external effect, instantiated in perception, of social goods and human beings in their situated spatial order/ing. Exclusion and inclusion are accordingly comprehended in terms of perception of the attunement of places. With reference to Anthony Giddens, this article discusses how space can be understood as a duality of structural ordering and action elements.

      http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~cect/teoreetilised%20seminarid_2009%20s%C3%BCgis/4_seminar_AEGRUUM_08.12.2009/3.Loew-The_constitution_of_space-2008.pdf

      I may have taken that too far again. 🙂

    133. Looks like they got their days mixed up

    134. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Andy Anderson @ 15:54,

      Aye, Andy, because the English Establishment are beginning to fight back on Brexit, finally reacting to the understanding that if things are allowed to continue to regress (can’t call it “progress”) as they are, we’re all in for the granddaddy of an economic crash-ooterie in a year or so.

      All those companies already making plans to decamp at least a portion of their business into a safe haven somewhere else in the EU, plus cutbacks here. Those duds in Lancashire who voted leave and now their job at BAE, or the economic spin-off from such, is going doon the cludgie. And this is still just the start.

      Yet most of the Brit media, and especially the BBC, still refuse to join the dots.

      OK, while a few of the more-liberal press are beginning to call out this Brexitomania, here (as you seem to well understand) everything is supposedly wondrously rosy, all in it together, with only the dastardly SNP to spoil the jolly old show.

    135. Clydebuilt says:

      Ch4’s coverage by Michael Crick showed close up’s of people and Bill boards , anything to avoid showing the numbers attending.

    136. manandboy says:

      Sent in to bat on LBC, Theresa May is out for a duck. Getting slaughtered in english press. Can’t be long now. The Times SNP coverage is more deflection than anything else, tho’ Kenny Farquarson continues the smear campaign against Nicola.

      Westminster’s propaganda war continues. The EU has nothing to say on the subject. Hedging their bets maybe in the hope that Brexit can be reversed. May appears not to know what to think, maybe still to consult Murdoch. It’ll be all hugs and kisses if Brexit is reversed. Remember GE17 with Theresa’s late change of mind?

    137. stu mac says:

      @galamcennalath says:
      11 October, 2017 at 12:08 pm
      Indeed. I can understand why many folks in England are desperate for a party which is centre left after years of centre right domination.
      =========================================

      Centre right? Centre f***ing right!? If only. We’ve had decades of far right government including New Labour whose sop to their surviving lefties of investment in schools/hospitals was totally undermined by it being done via PFI schemes which despite some short term improvement have done serious long term damage to the institutions they were supposed to improve.

    138. proudscot says:

      Re heedtracker’s comment on how many of our political leaders seem to regard the loss of countless lives of ordinary people as acceptable – or as they describe it “collateral damage” – one of the 20th century’s mass muorderer of his own people, Josef Stalin, stated “one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic!”
      On the subject of Sanderson’s deliberately misleading lie about the numbers gathering for Nicola’s speech, he seems to have copied the example of Trump’s equally laughable estimate of the non-existent crowds attending his inauguration.

    139. heedtracker says:

      proudscot says:

      Orange Hitler’s mob have altered the language of mass murder though, its all going to be such a great tragedy, when the first mushroom cloud rises over North Korea.

      It will ofcourse cause mass loss of life, initially and aas NK strikes back at its neighbours. It will destabilise the whole of that region.

      But the UK and the US do love a good war, rallies the plebs to the fleg, deflects attention from domestic issues, punches through and out of tricky situations like Brexit and its jolly good for business too. Not for nothing is teamGB one of the worlds biggest arms manufacturers, with a war monger Westminster.

    140. galamcennalath says:

      stu mac says:

      Centre f***ing right!?

      You are correct. There has been no government near the centre since Callahan.

      I must confess I have no idea why it typed the ‘centre’ before the right. Just the way I was typing the two options, maybe. 🙁

    141. Morag says:

      There were some empty seats at the back of the balcony but for goodness sake it is a five thousand seater !

      Three thousand for the entire auditorium, but 2,500 for the part that was in use. (The gallery was closed off.)

      It’s a perfectly valid point, but don’t exaggerate it. As I said, probably north of 2,000 people in a venue with a 2,500 capacity. Dan found the few empty rows at the back.

    142. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Interesting news in The National, [French] “Bank BNP Paribas to cut ties with companies working with shale gas and tar sands”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15589891.Bank_BNP_Paribas_to_cut_ties_with_companies_working_with_shale_gas_and_tar_sands/

      It’s also including oil and gas companies involved in the “delicate” Arctic. Looks like the SNP may have got it right with the fracking ban, externally to the UK as well.

    143. Once again the SNP are trying to help the ordinary people by intending to set up nonprofit energy company they are the only party who would do this along with all the other things they have delivered to the people not one of the other parties would have delivered these things and that’s a fact I mean energy food and water are nessesities of life no one should make a profit from them the SNP are trying to lift people out of poverty and as Ghandi said the worst form of violence is poverty

    144. David says:

      @ Ronnie and @Tinto –
      Just to be clear, I was having a joke and mis-quoting Radio Clyde’s football pundit Jimmy Sanderson. Another line of his was “Don’t flash your credentials at me, caller”…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYz4n2JmjE

      I’ll get mah hat. And mah macaroon bar and hot bovril.

    145. heedtracker says:

      O/T but this HMRC pullout of Scotland is really going to screw East Kilbride. Will that award winning Times ligger even be aware of it all? no.

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/east-kilbride-hmrc-staff-fear-11326056

    146. yesindyref2 says:

      If it was a gig and people find they can’t go, they can give or sell their tickets to others. For a multi-day conference I guess they can’t so if something happens like having to be in the HoC for a debate or speech, I guess they won’t make it, their passes are named perhaps :?} sp their seats will be vacant, and there’s always going to be vacant seats.

      In that picture, the vacant block is on the far side, and I’ve a feeling that at Sturgeon’s roadshow in 2014 I went to with son (we were up on the balcony near central, there was a similar vacant blcck at the same side – probably the worst view part.

      I remember stewards quite logically directing people into blocks at a time anyway, which is quite logical also to make it easier to move on and fill up the next block with a few stewards there, rather than have them scattered around randomly.

      Conclusion: Sanderson ain’t no colonel.

    147. Clydebuilt says:

      Henry McLeish says Scottish Football is at the lowerst ebb ever. Why’s that we very nearly qualified this time. The team’s UN-beaten in 7 games . . . The best run in 20 years.

      The BBC are headlining McLeish’s statement . . .,. It’s part of their campaign to run Strachan out of his job . . .

      Success at football is very good for Scotland’s moral . . . . The last thing the BBC wants!

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      Sorry to get all PC again but cultural sensitivity requires a degree of historical and contextual sensitivity. Trump might be orange but he is not (yet) guilty of genocide. 😉

      History Teaching, Cultural Restorationism and National Identity in England and Wales

      ABSTRACT The connection between history teaching and the formation of national identity is an important issue in a rapidly changing Europe. Recent interventions by senior government advisers on education in the United Kingdom on this subject emphasise its importance. By examining discourses of cultural restorationism in England and Wales, this paper considers their implications for the construction of ‘English’ and ‘Welsh’ identities in the future. It suggests that attempts to define certain forms of collective identity through education policy are not without considerable tensions and difficulties within the context of rapid cultural change and the impact of globalisation.

      History and Identity: from singular ‘I’ to collective ‘we’
      The complex link between history, cultural and national identity has interested social scientists, particularly social anthropologists and political scientists, as well as historians. Describing the development of regional nationalism in western Europe, including the United Kingdom, Alter claims that what characteristics them all is the way in which they bring:

      historical cultural and linguistic arguments to bear, they use their ‘national’ history, which is often steeped in myth, to legitimate political action. A collective identity emerges from consciousness of possessing a distinct historical tradition, culture and religion and of being embedded in specific social and economic forms of life. (Alter, 1989, p. 102)

      http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/0965975960040305

    149. bjsalba says:

      I’m in there somewhere in the dark part of the bottom photograph near the white pillar. I only got that seat because a friend kept me a place.

      I went to a lunchtime fringe event (from 12.30 till 1.30) at a hotel a 10 minute walk away from the auditorium. Even though I scooted out sharpish and walked briskly to the Armadillo, when I got there, the place was already packed. That was about 1:40pm.

    150. Morag says:

      Nobody in their senses books a venue that only just accommodates everyone expected to turn up. In the past some SNP conferences have been massively over-subscribed with queues and overflow halls, mainly because they turned out to attract far more people than originally envisaged. Fortunately they’ve learned from that and are now booking venues big enough so that queuing is voluntary, essentially jockeying for front seats, rather than essential to get in at all.

      A venue with a capacity of 2,500 was booked. More than 2,000 actually turned up for the leader’s speech. Dan found the few rows of empty seats up the back to photograph. Well done him.

    151. Robert Peffers says:

      Arrrrgh! I’ve just spent most of today working on a detailed comment explaining, in simple terms, how Westminster is brainwashing the people of the United Kingdom to believe that the English are subsidising the Scots. A great deal more serious an issue than them attempting to play down the SNP SG great successes of running Scotland and Nicola’s great speech.

      This comment involved not only much quoting of ONS and Treasury figures but the definitions of Westminster used terms designed to mislead. Thus, in a simple way to demonstrate the depth of dishonesty of Westminster and unionist propaganda.

      Both attempts just vanished suddenly into the ether. I’m giving up now for today at least. Next time I will do the work off-line and save it regularly to disk.

    152. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      11 October, 2017 at 5:14 pm
      heedtracker

      I dont think there’s ever been a more deadly and blatant sociopath in the Whitehouse before, at least not in our lifetime. Bush and Blair probably would not have invaded Iraq if 9/11 had never happened.

      Trump’s even sabotaged his own governments incredibly sensitive negotiation with NK, by merely tweeting little Rocket Man, right in the middle of it. That’s why his own guy Rex Tillerson, chief negotiating diplomat called Orange Hitler a fucking moron.

      He’s not though. This is the kind of behaviour Hitler displayed in the 30’s. Trump wants his war and he wants war with an enemy he knows the US can crush. Then he will win the next US general election. Mass loss of life is a great tragedy, we will be brainwashed with, by our ever more ghastly BBC gimp network especially.

      Or its all going to be fine. That’s Trump world for you:D

      Talking of war crimes and their perps, this one was at Glasgow, lecturing us all on depression.

      Labour creeps don’t do irony.

      https://www.gla.ac.uk/myglasgow/news/headline_553438_en.html

      He should be behind bars, along side, Bomber Bliar, Crash Gordo, the Flipper and every last one of the UKOK liars that voted for war on Iraq.

    153. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 different venue the roadshow after Nicola became leader was at the Hydro, the Conference was at the Armadillo, Ric had a conference at the Armadillo the same day as Nicola was at the Hydro. I was at Ric in the morning and Nicola in the afternoon.

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      Ah yes, of course, thanks. I was trying to figure it out right enough!

      @Robert Peffers
      Try going back, back, back, back, if you haven’t exited the page, your posting might still be in the box.

    155. frogesque says:

      Daniel Sanderson of The Times:

      Prick just about covers it. Even the BBC2 live broadcast showed the Armadillo packed to the rafters.

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      back, back, back still works even if you posted since, I’ve just done that and can get all 3 of my previous postings to this thread if I really wanted to!

    157. @Morag

      You should never have spare seats,

      `overbooking` is a science used by hotels,airlines,venues,etc

      even individuals organising a party should invite 120 for a 100 seater event,

      it`s a guarantee 20> % don`t turn up for various reasons.

    158. Andy MacNicol says:

      Surely the timestamp on Desperate Dan’s picture is when he posted it, not when it was taken. Easy enough to take a photo during the lunch break and hang on to it for a couple of hours before posting.

      But a reputable journalist wouldn’t do that would they? I suppose the clue is in the definition of reputable.

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Yup. Puigdemont got it exactly correct with the declaration of Indy followed by the suspension, it’s put Rajoy in a spot:

      http://archive.is/gtKgy

      Dear me, Rajoy really is getting this wrong.

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      @Scot Finlayson
      Because of fire regulations I don’t think overbooking would be allowed, or through the booking agency (eventbrite?), and I doubt it would go down well with members if they were turned away!. Hotels and airlines who overbook don’t give a stuff. But if a member cane down from Inverness, booked accomodation and couldn’t get in there’d be hell to pay. As we’ve seen on recent threads, SNP members don’t take prisoners …

    161. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      Puigdemont got it exactly correct with the declaration of Indy followed by the suspension, it’s put Rajoy in a spot:

      Yes, they are playing a difficult situation well.

      “90 per cent of voters back independence with a turnout of 43 per cent”

      About a quarter of the votes were destroyed. So the turn out was actually.about 57%.

      Seems perfectly reasonable to assume the 90% applies to that total too, why wouldn’t it?

      90% of 57% is 51.3%.

      Imagine! 51ish % of the ELECTORATE wanted Indy.

      Like most places, ~25% never vote. So ‘silent majority’ against, total bollocks.

      Perfectly obvious why Rajoy went to such lengths to sabotage it. Also, why he wants to avoid a fair and open referendum at all costs.

    162. Morag says:

      You should never have spare seats,

      `overbooking` is a science used by hotels,airlines,venues,etc

      even individuals organising a party should invite 120 for a 100 seater event,

      it`s a guarantee 20> % don`t turn up for various reasons.

      That’s a ridiculous comparison. A party conference isn’t an event where people pay for seats and the organisers try to sell as many as possible.

      A party conference needs a venue big enough to accommodate the numbers of delegates and observers likely to turn up. In the past the SNP has been caught on the hop by far more people wanting to come than they bargained for. This time they got it just about spot on. Enough room for everyone to get in, without rattling around looking silly.

      Or tell me, where do you find a venue with exactly 2,143 seats, assuming that was the exact number of delegates and observers who purchased conference passes?

    163. Morag says:

      Surely the timestamp on Desperate Dan’s picture is when he posted it, not when it was taken. Easy enough to take a photo during the lunch break and hang on to it for a couple of hours before posting.

      But a reputable journalist wouldn’t do that would they? I suppose the clue is in the definition of reputable.

      The photo is what he says it is. The rear balcony area about half an hour before Nicola was due on.

      By that time the stalls area (1200 seats) was already packed full and the front balcony was also pretty well-filled. Stewards were apparently encouraging people to fill the front balcony first, although some people did sit in the rear section.

      Essentially Dan found the few empty rows right at the back of a huge venue which was extremely well-filled, and photographed them.

    164. heedtracker says:

      It must be true though, Severin C of stinky old Graun backs him up. Scotland, a country in waiting where UKOK hacks troll the populace:D

      Severin Carrell Retweeted
      Dan Sanderson?Verified account @DSandersonTimes Oct 10

      Stewards at #snp17 demanding delegates move to front rows to make hall appear more full for Nicola Sturgeon speech.

    165. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Adolf l’orange.

      We died for his sins. The humanity!

    166. Andy MacNicol says:

      The photo is what he says it is. The rear balcony area about half an hour before Nicola was due on.

      By that time the stalls area (1200 seats) was already packed full and the front balcony was also pretty well-filled. Stewards were apparently encouraging people to fill the front balcony first, although some people did sit in the rear section.

      Essentially Dan found the few empty rows right at the back of a huge venue which was extremely well-filled, and photographed them.

      So it’s not fake news then. Just plain old fashioned lies.

    167. ronnie anderson says:

      @ David 5.03 Dinnae fash yersel am no offended

    168. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – Coast: The Great Guide.
      Not paid too much attention, but it seems Neil Oliver is actually doing a good job on the Forth, Rail, road bridge and then the Forth Crossing. Must have been when he was auditioning for the NTS job!

      Either that or he’s joined the SNP and is becoming YES 🙂

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Severin Carell
      It’s not possible to be a moderate patriot to a unitary sate (e.g. the UK). Britain is not ‘One Nation’!.

      The Ethics of Patriotism: A Debate
      This dialogue begins with an explanation of what the authors actually agree on — which turns out to be (surprisingly) some very important things. They all believe that patriotism conceptually must involve an agent’s love for a country rather than for a people group (4). (The latter affect is identified as “nationalism” as opposed to patriotism, and throughout the authors are careful to both separate the two and also to remind the reader how difficult it really is to separate them.) Collectively, the authors agree also that if an agent is a patriot, then she favors her country over others, which they argue indicates that given “the right circumstances, the patriot will do things for her country that she would not do for other countries” (5), including performing actions to protect the country’s defense, health, and prosperity. Finally, they think that being a patriot means that an agent’s self-conception integrates a patriotic identification with her country in a way that impacts how others view her character (5). The patriot identifies with her country in relational terms: her country is hers, and the reciprocal obligations between country and patriot matter morally. The disagreements that emerge out of these agreements fuel the book’s content and include questions about the nature and scope of patriotic actions, the moral permissibility of identifying with a country, the value of patriotism, and even whether one could be a patriot without also being a scoundrel.

      http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/the-ethics-of-patriotism-a-debat/

    170. Lenny Hartley says:

      So all the News programs are headlining on the casting couch, in Channel Fours case nearly a 1/3 of the program, got to be asked why? It’s not exactly news here is it, that somebody that hardly anybody in the UK has heard of before who has been parodied extensively in his own country for being a casting couch menace is taking up so much space in our news programs. You would think there was an agenda to keep the omnifuck that is Brexit off the news or so far into the program that most folk have switched channels or switched off.

    171. starlaw says:

      Or Neil Oliver has just found out exactly what Scots folk think of him.

    172. Robert Kerr says:

      @yesindiref2

      Thanks for the archive of that Herald sh*t.

      “there were also reports of irregularities in the voting procedure.”

      That will be the falangist thuggery encouraging voters not to>>>.

      Oh well.

    173. Balaaargh says:

      Here on the the Algarve, the news is all about Catalonia. Last night, a Spanish adviser “reminded” them of the last Catalan leader to declare independence in 1934. After which, he had to flee to France before being deported back to Franco’s firing squad.

    174. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      11 October, 2017 at 7:24 pm
      @Severin Carell

      His twitter timeline is really nasty though. Its probably just part of being a UKOK hack, if you’re a sneaky shit, you’re in. He’s from Sunderland, doing his best for the UK, up here.

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      The “Semiotic Kid’s” a poser, simples. 😉

    176. Tinto Chiel says:

      @David 5.03: bien entendu, mon vieux.

      My question is, “Where have all the macaroon bars gone (and the spearmint, btw)?”

      I think we should be told…

    177. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Don’t know about spearmint, but macaroon bars are doing fine:

      https://iscot.scot/

    178. Alex Clark says:

      @Morag

      Your right, there is not much point in twisting things to suit our agenda. I’ve no doubt that they were empty seats in the balcony. So many tickets are supplied in advance and only so many can make it on the day. Empty seats in a hall that size are no surprise.

      That’s no big deal, however the impression that Dan Sanderson was trying to give is something else entirely. Entirely false.

    179. heraldnomore says:

      Hmm, I see QT’s heading to Killie early next month. Don’t think I’ll be applying to join them, or watching. They may well use the subtitles for that one. Should be a fine audience mix. Orange County.

      Any guesses for the panel?

    180. Tinto Chiel says:

      Strange coincidence: my copy just arrived today, Yesindyref2.

      Kendo can do, I think 😉

    181. Shinty says:

      Would this be the very same ‘I thought we had permission’ Daniel Sanderson?

      https://www.journalism.co.uk/news/mccann-diary-reporter–i-thought-we-had-permission-/s2/a547230/

    182. Alex Clark says:

      @Shinty

      Journalists are disgusting creatures but always have been! Always after “the story” and intruding on others grief. If they were honest much of what they do might be excused but they’re not.

      If they can’t get want they want then they’ll make it up. Despicable.

    183. Rock says:

      “We’re not sure why Daniel Sanderson and the Times would want you to believe something else.”

      They only want the unionist majority in Scotland to believe something else.

      And it serves the purpose very well.

      That is all that matters to them.

    184. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      I’m sure the Hacks are simply acting under orders which come from the Centre.

      I used to enjoy a read through the papers particularly at the weekend. I have said before the Times was one of my favourite reads.

      How sad the papers are now propaganda outlets for the English Nationalist government.

      I am certain that one day a book will be published possibility following independence but preferably before, identifying the Centre and its workings.

      A bit like The Panama Papers, look forward to that.

    185. yesindyref2 says:

      @Shinty
      Different Sanderson, older and half bald!

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock
      Are you sure yoons are in the majority? A good chunk of those who voted No in 2014, simply weren’t sure at the time. Time and events dear chap, tend to conspire against the ideological. Didn’t a recent poll suggested about 19% surveyed were staunchly loyal, and would never vote for Scottish independence?

    187. Rock says:

      Blair Paterson,

      “Once again the SNP are trying to help the ordinary people by intending to set up nonprofit energy company”

      They mean well but the EU is dead against state owned companies, profit making or not.

      It can only happen once the UK is out of the EU.

      I don’t think an independent Scotland in the EU would be allowed to have a state owned energy company.

    188. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m pretty sure I suggested during indyref14, that roughly 20% of society is gullible and 20% intransigent. Reason and progress comes from the middle 60%.

    189. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      “Rock
      Are you sure yoons are in the majority?”

      Have you seen any recent polls with a Yes majority?

      As long as there is no Yes majority, there is a unionist majority.

      And if there isn’t, there is always the “silent (unionist) majority” they will get from thin air.

    190. ben madigan says:

      Was delighted to hear the SNP intend setting up a national non-profit energy company.
      Scotland, like Ireland, is a cold Northern country and heating, like food and water is a necessity of life.
      And like food and water, heating’s needed all year round!
      For example, a relative in Belfast had the heating on or the sitting-room fire lit in the evenings in late July!!!
      I agree no profit should be made in supplying necessities for life to people

    191. Alex Clark says:

      Denmarks state owned energy company.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DONG_Energy

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t think an independent Scotland in the EU would be allowed to have a state owned energy company.

      Cobblers. Scottish water is “state owned”, and Nottingham Energy is council owned, not for profit. Scotrail and Calmac are state owned, or at least the ferries are.

      Garbage in, garbage out, time for you to get a better diet!

    193. heraldnomore says:

      Just when you thought a quiet night off might be possible – time to switch off.

    194. heedtracker says:

      Uncle Rupert’s goon squad are going to have their work cut out keeping planet toryboy er, afloat.

      Jump in anywhere,

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-wto/uk-eu-send-proposal-to-rest-of-wto-to-split-trade-terms-idUKKBN1CG1DA

      “Without unanimous approval of Britain’s new membership terms at the 164-member WTO, any country could launch a lengthy trade dispute if they feel their trading interests have been damaged.
      But a source familiar with trade negotiations in New Zealand saw very tough discussions ahead.”

      “All that the EU and the UK have done now is open themselves up to a world of pain. But really this is going to be very serious for them,” said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.”

      All heil our imperial master baiters of Eton.

    195. Brian Powell says:

      There is too much consideration given to what journalists ‘think’. It can be OK to be aware of what they headline but beyond that they deserve little consideration.

      We know that they don’t want the SNP or Ind to succeed, in fact complete collapse is their ‘want’, and they serve and accept right wing masters: for that they are to be despised.

      The 4th Estate failed in the Ind Ref and in Brexit, there is no reason for us to be circumspect about their worthlessness.

    196. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock
      “As long as there is no Yes majority, there is a unionist majority.”

      There may not be a Yes majority, perhaps there is? Your logic is based on assumption, so isn’t justified.

    197. heedtracker says:

      Brian Powell says:
      11 October, 2017 at 9:54 pm
      There is too much consideration given to what journalists ‘think’. It can be OK to be aware of what they headline but beyond that they deserve little consideration.

      I dont agree.

      They keep vital facts hidden from us. They lie outright. They frame debates. They hand yoon culture all kinds of fake or inflated Scotland is shite stuff, like how our NHS and schools are truly terrible, under SNP Scots only. Above all else, they terrify people in to voting NO, like in 2014, when they went after undecideds with terror in major way.

      Severin Carrell for example, is the titled the Graun’s Scotland editor, yet he produces almost nothing at all about his Scotland region, except SNP bad, and Scotland’s a shithole, once or twice a week. What a doss it must be.

    198. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      “Rock
      “As long as there is no Yes majority, there is a unionist majority.”

      There may not be a Yes majority, perhaps there is? Your logic is based on assumption, so isn’t justified.”

      The 2014 independence referendum resulted in a unionist majority.

      The last Westminster election, which the unionist parties used independence as the main campaigning point, resulted in a unionist majority (vote share).

      Nicola was due to make an important announcement on independence after the Easter break before she was outsmarted by Saint Theresa calling a “snap” election.

      Folowing the election where SNP support fell from 50% to 37%, with a loss of half a million voters and 23 seats, Nicola was forced to dither about the independence referendum.

      Admit it or not, like it or not, there is a unionist majority in Scotland.

    199. stewartb says:

      “I don’t think an independent Scotland in the EU would be allowed to have a state owned energy company.”

      Really? Is this a carefully researched view or just (another) attempt at peddling the ‘but Scotland can’t’ fear-mongering? I ask because when one actually does some research (30 minutes worth only by the way!) the evidence suggests otherwise.

      Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are all members of the EU: all are among the smaller states of the EU and all joined in 2004. The source below provides a review of State Owned Enterprises in each of these three countries.

      Source: Baltic Institute of Corporate Governance (2016) Governance of State-owned Enterprises in the Baltic States. (http://www.ifc.org/wps/wcm/connect/a69fbc00446b373cb109bdc66d9c728b/Kristian+Kaas+Mortensen.pdf?MOD=AJPERES and http://www.bicg.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Governance-of-State-Owned-Enterprises-in-the-Baltic-States.pdf )

      Amongst the numerous SOEs operating in a range of sectors in these EU member states, they include Eesti Energia, Latvenergo and Lietuvos Energija i.e. a state-owned energy company exists in each one of these three, present EU member countries. (There are also SOEs in the banking, railway and ports sectors amongst others.)

    200. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 21:23 pm,

      Errm, like EDF, the French-state-owned utility, you mean? (The clue is in its full name, “Electricité de France”.) It may operate nuclear reactors and sell electricity elsewhere, but still a monolith in its home country, I believe.

      Still, never like a solid fact get in the way of another good ol’ EU fable, eh…?

    201. Rock says:

      Alex Clark (aka Thepnr) and yesindyref2,

      Look up the EU’s policy on state owned companies.

      Privatisation is a key demand for aspiring members.

      Admit it or not, like it or not, Scotland will be an aspiring member for the EU.

      There seems near zero chance of Scotland being independent before Brexit has been completed.

      The EU only deals with independent states making their own decisions.

      It will not treat Scotland any way different than it treated Catalonia.

    202. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Actually, as soon as it was announced, I was wondering when the first BritNat stooge would pop up to claim that the EU wouldn’t allow a state-owned energy utility (as if the issue wouldn’t have been very carefully checked in advance of the announcement).

      Well, now we know.

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock
      You’re at it again with your broad brush. Not all who voted No are Yoons. Can you admit that?

    204. Albaman says:

      Geeo @3:41pm,
      So, do you think the written press in Scotland, are all as white as the driven snow, if so,name them please.

    205. Liz g says:

      Ben Madigan @ 9.34
      It was great news indeed Ben!
      And I am pretty sure that oor Nicola, lawyer that she is will not have announced this unless and until she was absolutely sure it was doable.
      Not only within the framework of the Union but also within the parameters of the intended EU Treaty’s that Scotland will write.
      It matters not that some will cry but the EU currently doesn’t allow this thing….. I know not and care less!
      Our current Treaty agreement with the EU, the one we voted to keep has been destroyed, it’s gone.
      So what the EU will or won’t allow is a moot point at the moment.
      Mibbi even time to put publicly owned things in place,so they exist when we write our own Treaty?
      Kinda like the NHS!
      The EU have tolerated that and not insisted it be sold off…..naw that’s the Tories.
      All I do know is that we will be EU members with a publicly owned energy company and Health Service!
      This is because I don’t believe for one wee minute that Nicola Sturgeon would give that kind of hope to those in fuel poverty if she doesn’t mean it?
      Mare tae the point I don’t think that Stuart Cambell would stay silent if she were to try …. don’t ye think?

    206. Rock says:

      Robert J. Sutherland,

      “as if the issue wouldn’t have been very carefully checked in advance of the announcement”

      As had been the minimum alcohol price policy?

      Did it not end up in court?

      Do you think the private energy companies are going to let the Scottish government set up a non profit making energy company without court action and delays?

      Talking of state owned non profit making utilities, I am 100% in favour of them, including the re-nationalisation of the railways.

      I used the words “They mean well” and “I don’t think” and I meant exactly that.

      If and when the SNP government succeeds in having a state owned non profit making energy company, I will be happy to have been proven wrong.

    207. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      “Rock
      You’re at it again with your broad brush. Not all who voted No are Yoons. Can you admit that?”

      No, I can’t.

      There was a clear Yes No referendum.

      In my view, all those who voted No were unionists.

      Some may, hopefully, have changed there minds, but all the evidence shows that there is still a unionist majority in Scotland.

    208. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock
      You appear to be stuck in the past and only the Sith deal in absolutes. Time and events dear chap. Time and events.

      Now, got a better argument?

    209. frogesque says:

      State owned does not mean state subsidised. Energy sold at or near cost allowing for a small overhead is not subsidy.

      EU have a beef about state subsidies, they also have a beef about cartels. If the SG can break the current cartel without direct or indirect subsidy then all is good.

      Power companies will whine, it’s what they do. They can f right off!

    210. heedtracker says:

      Some may, hopefully, have changed there minds, but all the evidence shows that there is still a unionist majority in Scotland.

      Thank you for dropping any pretence you’re a YESer Rock. So if you’re right, why did our imperial master baiters suddenly fart their The Vow fraud into Scots ref1?

      Most odd that Rock, if you’re right dude.

      Maybe you are, its just than when the UKOK shysters at the Daily Record suddenly had that giant The Vow front page, last minute.com, why did they pick the Daily Record, it must have been because there is an actual YES Scotland majority and the britnats panicked?

      No, Rock?

      It was an interesting choice that, Daily Record, for the front banner page The Vow headline. Apart from the fact that the DR editor is a really vocal aggressive britnat tory, they must have been targeting undecideds directly, readers of the DR, a small but important demographic Rock?

      Is it still called triangulation Rock, I only ask because your learned n shit:D

    211. Cadogan Enright says:

      Did the Rev ever find out how many members the North British Labour Party has?

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15589391.Scottish_Labour_contest_hit_by_row_over_new_members_with_identical_contact_details/

    212. Liz g says:

      frogesque @ 10.55
      I think you hit the nail on the head there.
      The NHS as I said in my previous post was not a problem for the EU…. therefore the question is, why should a not for profit “company” like the NHS… NOT.. be a problem?
      As you say it’s probably the subsidy thing that’s the issue.

    213. Petra says:

      Raul Romeva, the Catalan Foreign Minister, has written to the National thanking them and their readers for their support. Great that in light of what’s going on right now he found the time to do so.

      Meanwhile the Scots continue to attempt to resolve this situation, whilst many bury their heads in the sand or worse still try to exacerbate the situation. Alyn Smith has suggested that the Scots act as mediators and Alex has been speaking out in Strasbourg.

      Extracts taken from an article in the National:

      ‘Alex Salmond speaking at the Political Affairs and Democracy Committee of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg has made a dramatic intervention in the current controversy over the Spanish Governments treatment of Catalonians during the independence referendum by calling for an inquiry into a “flagrant breach of human rights.” He says that the Spanish Government has breached Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights which states that “everyone has the right to freedom of expression ” and the “freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.”……………

      He calls for dialogue and a constructive approach to discussions between Madrid and Barcelona. He also welcomes the Council’s Commissioner, Nils Muiznieks, request for an investigation into police violence, but states that “it should be the job of this Council to investigate breaches of our Convention and take the appropriate action…..

      He says that “breach of the A10 of the EC on Human Rights on freedom of expression cannot be allowed to stand. The Spanish Government should be held to account by this Council for the state violence of their police last Sunday perpetrated against a peaceful population.”

      By raising the matter directly with the Council of Europe – the group of 47 Nations dedicated to upholding human rights across Europe – Salmond has significantly raised the stakes above the calls already made to the EU for action against Spain.’

      …………………

      Latest news. Arlene Foster is saying No deal, no way, to T May’s “No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.”

      Whit’s big T goin to do noo?

    214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 22:41,

      Och, silly me, I should have realised by now that you know so much more than anyone else, including Nicola and the whole SG team. (A mere bunch of ignorant amateurs, them.)

      In fact you’re so good you should start your own political party right away, just to keep everyone in Holyrood and the SG on their toes. They need you. You could call it “Pessimist Heroes Always Right Tendency”, for example.

      People (all one of them) will just flock to vote for you, I’m sure.

    215. Scotspine says:

      @Rock. Fuck off min, every day I come on here and you are on girning and spreading discord. Seriously getting on my tits. You are a closet Yoon, now just fuck off.

    216. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 10.23pm

      I do love the way you know everything. The EU has made no definitive or official statement on Catalonia’s right to seek independence.

    217. Cactus says:

      Half moon.

      Inra City of Glasgow.

      Ahm yer Uncle Travelling Matt laters…

      Jammin’..

      X.

    218. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 11.11
      While I do feel a wee bit sorry for his constituents… just a wee bit,in a, don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone kind of way….
      But!!
      oh my,I think they did us a favour…..

      How much is Alec Salmond putting the defence of the People’s right to self determination front and center of the international response to the state violence by Spain.

      Puts a whole new spin on the “Scottish Right”.. LOL

      But seriously….if anyone can find a way between Spain & Catilonia, hopefully it’s him.
      The guy who was willing not to damage England by offering a currency Union for (let’s not forget) a wee while.
      Not a thing I would have done….and thankfully not a thing that Scotland has to entertain now…yay..
      But hopefully he can/we can help to get the declaration in place with no more bloodshed.

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      There is only one solution, and that’s for the PP and Socialists in Spain to lay down the law, insist that Catalonia holds a legal referendum which they’ll honour by changing the Constitution if neccessary. Spain wins.

      😎

    220. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 23:11,

      That’s a very interesting initiative by Alex Salmond there. After the utterly reprehensible actions of its agents last Sunday, seen all around the world, it was high time that the Madrid government was taken to task under the rule of law (to =ahem= coin a phrase).

      Earlier this evening on Euronews, a Belgian MEP was saying that the EC should step in to mediate, while a Spanish socialist was counter-claiming it was no-one’s business except Spain’s.

      Well, it becomes international business when a government violates the treaties to which their country is a signatory. Madrid can’t cherry pick (to coin another phrase =grin=) which “rules of law” they prefer to obey.

    221. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 23:38,

      It’s so obvious a way forward that it should be a no-brainer.

      One worry of course, like we saw with the notorious “Vow”, is that promises will be made to pull Catalonia back from the brink, then casually discarded once they think the current impetus has dissipated.

      So some kind of guarantee would be needed to ensure a fair and free referendum was held within a relatively short time and on clear terms, and the result binding on both sides.

    222. Still Positive says:

      Liz g @ 11.32

      Alex Salmond is the man to do it. Don’t forget he got Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness together with a Lambeg drum.

    223. Cactus says:

      VISCA V!

    224. Cactus says:

      WE. OWN. MIDNIGHT.

      Never forget that FACT!

      PLAY it again Sam.

    225. Ken500 says:

      Well that’s funny because there are a plenty of Stote owned companies in all EU companies. Especially Germany. Not for profit companies who destribuute their profits to the public purse. Green energy companies. Not for profit Housing Association with cheaper rents for tenants.in fact in Germany and other EU counties they do not buy they rent. It is cheaper and keeps housing costs down. They hsve security of tenure.

      Boards have to have 20%? of workers representative, All workers eat in the same good canteen and workers conditions are excellent. All workers right are extended to everyone. That is repeated in many EU counties, Good pensions, good working conditions etc, skilled apprenticeships. Fully funded Uni education, Pity about the emission scandal. That fair let them down. They have to pay £Billions for that. Disgusting.

      The Scottish economy would be near to the German economy. (Pro rata) That is probably what Scotland would compare to become. Comparable except for Westminster death wish on Scotland. Taking out £Billions from the Scottish economy paying for what the majority do not want. Then not because having the funding left to do what the majority does want. Westminster has wasted it all away. On their chosen projects. Not Scotland choices.

      Could still get better off. Buying up and nationalising. Oil & Gas companies. It could be done.Then set it up as a none profit making Charitable Trust. Any profits could be retained in the Scottish Gov coffers for public service.,Do not pay the high Treasury taxes 40%, since Jan 2016, Totally damaging the sector. Importing Norwegian Oil & Gas, and fracked Gas from the US. It is terrible having to buy back your own assets. Statoil is reaping the profit from Scottish assets. Imagine having to buy back your own oil & Gas. The sector has damaged by Westminster greed and high Tory taxes.

      Rock peddling the usual shite. You would think the braindead moron could at least go on the internet and find out a few facts. Before peddling the usual rubbish, making
      an arse of himself. What a loser. Rock has obviously never travel anywhere except with blinkers on. Would rather spent his time on the internet slagging off the SNP. Than gathering some interesting information. To education his dinosaur self. You little creep. Go on. Google workers rights in EU counties. Go through the list. Or just google workers rights in Germany. Renting sector . Or just the economic facts. Dumb feck. Have you every travelled to a foreign country? Where?

      Workers rights in France, Germany Etc. and workers rights in other EU companies. In Spain they gave rigid workers rights. Public jobs for life.

      EU State owned energy companies etc, They do not allow unfair competition but they support State owned companies. It the case in made it will benefit the country and is an essential service. Look st the Island ferries/airlines. They are allowed public funding because they are an essential service.

      Just like minimum pricing, The EU said it was a matter for the Scottish Courts.it was allowed. because it would improve the health of the people. Mitigating circumstances. The London Court has been dragging it’s heal on the verdict. It can take six months to deliberate. The final verdict will be within the next four months. They can’t not agree because it was passed in the Scottish Parliament 2012 by all Parties except Labour (as usual). They would rather kill people.

      Scotland is sovereign under Scottish Law. Lord Cooper 1954. They have to ageee or break the Law. They also know the affects of excessive alcohol on society, They have been dealing with the fall out. All of their lives. Dealing with cases where children have to be fostered or adopted. Taken from their parents for good. Murders, deaths, abuse, child abuse and neglect because of the excessive consumption of alcohol. Most crime is committed under the affects of drink and drugs. (50%). One of the nearest routes to poverty is drink/drug abuse. That is why absolute abstinence is often the only outcome for addicts. Not ‘it’s ok to drink at a meal’ ‘Just drink sensible’ Addicts can’t enough is never enough fir them. If they do not get the specialist help. They end on a downward spiral and can’t work.

    226. Liz g says:

      Still positive @ 11.45
      I actually did forget about that
      So glad you said something
      Now I feel loads better because there’s a chance that there will be no more violence.
      Mair power tae the negotiators…..the people are sovereign……

    227. Those with itchy fingers responding to trolls. That’s why they’re doing it.
      It’s tempting, but ignoring is less irritating for us, and more irritating for them.

    228. ben madigan says:

      @ petra who said
      “Arlene Foster is saying No deal, no way, to T May’s “No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.”

      Surprised?
      “No deal” means Arlene and the DUP are finished in Ireland and in the UK. Which will probably please a lot of English people. I don’t imagine many are happy with the Con-DUP arrangement in Westminster.I think if the Conservatives could stay in power, they would happily sacrifice Arlene, the DUP and NI if it would bring about a better Brexit outcome for Great Britain

      “No Deal” means problems with a hard border and risk of (violent) protests as the Irish simply will not accept it.Arlene knows this and she also knows Sinn Fein holds all the Border counties, north and South

      “No Deal” means riding roughshod over the majority of NI people who voted to remain. Will they then vote for Arlene and Co?

      “No deal” means those who were undecided will see their EU subventions gone with the wind(see wealthy farmers who may have supported DUP).

      Remember 1) DUP and loyalists/Unionists are loyal to the half-crown rather than the Crown

      2) their “Loyalty” is what is known as “Covenanter-style”. In other words – “we are loyal as long as you do what we say”

      3) they are no longer the majority in NI and finally

      4) there’s a court case coming up on 26th October, challenging the legality of the Conservative-DUP “arrangement”

    229. Ken500 says:

      Would it not be better if Alex Salmond to be working on the Scottish Independence campaign. Not interfering in another people’s Referendum. Alex Salmond will be wary. He is a shrewed cookie.

      The only one who is breaking the Laws and the Constitution. Including Catalonian rule of Law is Pingudemon,. He owns the national propaganda TV Station. There is no free and fair democracy anywhere in the world where that would be tolerated. A conflict of interest. He was a journalist. It was reported he also was supposed to have 90 votes in the Catalonia Parliamebt, To legally call a Referendum. He had 72. What they should be finding out Is why turnouts are so low, 30/40% turnouts. All the time? Are some people being de registered. without their knowledge. Are they cheating taxes? Or not paying local taxes and are scared they will be found out.

    230. Cactus says:

      Gaun…’ gamblin’!

      In ra Glasgow.

      Tis efter hours.

      Any tips Wingers’?

      Wings.

    231. geeo says:

      OT here, but there is a strange galactic light show outside right now.

      Looking at around 40 meteors from the Orionid meteor shower in one patch of sky.

      Best i have ever witnessed.

      The Orionid shower is debris from Hally’s Comet the earth passes through every October.

    232. Alex Clark says:

      @Cactus

      This is how many in Europe see us. If the hairs on the back of your neck are not standing up already lol they will be after you watch this.
      Fantastic piece of music and theatre and am no kidding 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP9CPMsJN7Y

    233. Alex Clark says:

      By the way for anyone other than Cactus this really is a class act.

      Andre Rieu – Scotland The Brave – Amazing Grace

    234. Cactus says:

      TIS VICTORY PEOPLE OF CATALONIA!

      WE LOVE YOU.

      SI.

      V.

    235. Cactus says:

      LET’S TRY A REVOLUTION PEOPLE.

    236. Cactus says:

      About tae go for underground reception.

      See ye later.

      Gaun gamblin’…

      Glasgow X.

      Cheers Nicola, that wiz a kick ass conference!

    237. Ken500 says:

      There isn’t a unionist majority in Scotland. It is 50/50. People who vote for unionists Parties also vote for Independence. Independence support is 50/60. EU support is 62% on a high turnout.

      The Brexit got 17Million votes out of a 45Million electorate. They won in the rest of the UK by 1Million+ votes. Not a lot. 2%. Do not think EU citzens were allowed to vote? Expats 15 years away were allowed to vote. Overall the majority of people want to stay in the EU. That is why the Tories/Labour are in such a state. Why try to do the same thing over and over, expecting something different. When the result stays the same.

    238. Cactus says:

      ‘Attic Attack’ William Wallace.. Gimme a number or two..?

      Ahm thinking the L split..

      What u thinking?

      The ECG key!

    239. Ken500 says:

      No matter where you go in the world. The pipes and drums aye get yer. Renowned throughout the world. Especially at New Year.. Now weddings etc. A Scottish Pipe band was the first over the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Masons from Scotland. Some from Rubislaw quarry built the foundation towers. It was quite a story. They built a village in Australia two hours from the Bridge. Made boats to sail up the granite from the quarry. There were wooden bunk houses,and wooden bungalows for the manager’s families from Keith? A local quarry. They had a school with a scottish school master/teacher. A Scottish Country dance band. They went fishing, hiking etc, Had an old 1930’s truck. They all bungled in it. There are flocks of wild budgies in the bush.

      Rubislaw quarry. The deepest hole in the world? It is being developed as a museum and tourist attraction. All the information will be available there. 1930’s. The Great Depression.

    240. Cactus says:

      DETOUR..

      One is within Freedom Square…

      One is smokin’ a smoke.

      Show me ra money!

      I LOVE GLASGOW.

    241. Alex Clark says:

      @Cactus

      All the best Cactus. One thing I know for certain is that you and I are cut from the same cloth. We are SCOTLAND

    242. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      Split the 2/5 and and the 17/20.

      On the fifa wi meh pal in 2 v 2’s. Will treh and get on wi the support act and keep the night shift alive as soon as. 😉

    243. Cactus says:

      Ah’ve no ate this much goodness fur so long…

      Munchies at ra casino.

      This is good.

      Love SCO.

      14 / 17.

      X.

    244. Meg merrilees says:

      Liz g and still positive

      I agree- think Salmond would be the perfect person to negotiate between Rahoy and Puidemont.

      He’s negotiated one crucial referendum already and to Rahoy’s favour, Salmond lost so he clearly didn’t load it in the SNP’s favour. He’s an elder statesman with no constituency just now, no axe to grind and well known in Europe.

      However, Rahoy will not appreciate being singled out at the EC so may be disinclined towards Oor Eck.

    245. Cactus says:

      Roulette wiz pish…

      Gonna try blackjack.

      Thereafter, we go to poke-her later.

      Two Kings.

      Ahm watching different games awe ra time.

    246. Macart says:

      It’s all going a bit pear shaped for the Rt Hon. Treeza (cough).

      Hammond before the Treasury select committee basically telling it like it really is in event of a hard Brexit. Cash and resources will be fairly thin on the ground for public services for instance. An already critically damaged NHS in England would see yet further lack of funding as an example.There would be less funds available for education, social care, deficit reduction and so on. Without a negotiated deal in place airlines currently flying to the continent could face almost immediate grounding.

      Y’know, carnage. Of course those few examples are a mere appetizer for the shitstorm that is hard brexit. There are way more examples from customs calamity to near immediate food shortage that could be added, but you get the drift.

      Anyroads, in a complete about face come PMQs, May then swears blind that money will be found. (Probably from that magic money tree known as QE). Who has the bigger riddy at this point between the PM and the Chancellor is anyone’s guess, but they’re clearly not reading from the same page. Certainly the splits in cabinet pretty much right out there on display yesterday and it has to be said the government not exactly leading by example on the ‘unity’ front.

      When this goes completely wrong, (and it will), I wonder what the public’s response will be? The right wing media (well, pretty much all of the media) share a good deal of the blame for this omnishambles. How and ever, the ultimate responsibility lies with government, the system of government, the political class and their practice of politics. If an over-manipulated public ever do get two and two to add up to four, the backlash against government (and their messengers), societal cohesion and public order could be grim. It’d make the city riots of a few years back look like a kiddies party temper tantrum.

    247. Cactus says:

      Just crossed Kingston Bridge inna taxis.

      The Clyde is high…

      An I’m holding on…

      Ahm gonna be yer number one.

      Love ra SNP.

    248. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I posted on another Wings thread, way back immediately after the Brexit referendum that, since the City of London didn’t want Brexit and big business didn’t want it – and these were the people who largely funded the Conservative Party – it would not happen.

      Caameron bailed out and May, the next least-bad choice from a fairly-poor field came in, and, she appeared to have worked it well, putting the arch-Brexiteers in charge and allowing them to totally fuck things up. Her mistake was going to the country and getting a very bloody nose in the process. She is now in damage-limitation mode.

      If she goes ahead with Brexit, Britain is screwed and, because the Tories’ paymasters will not be happy, she is screwed, and Corbyn gets in, which will be a disaster. Also, if she goes ahead, Scotland will have its Indyref and leave – she’s screwed again: forever tarred as: “The Woman who broke-up the UK”.

      So, somehow, a way will have to be found to keep the UK inside the EU, and the Tory Party together and in power[ and squaring that circle will be fun – not to mention well-nigh impossible.

      BUT, IF this happens, where the SNP? We will still be inside the EU, which kills-off the overwhelming case for Indyref2 – “Scotland voted by a substantial majority to remain in Europe, we are being taken-out against our will, therefore, Independence is our only option.”

      I do hope, therefore, in the face of this possible perfect wave of anti-Independence events striking, the SNP has a Plan B. They really need to have contingency plans around the elephant in the room – the basic unfairness of the Act of Union and the fact, for over 300=years England has treated us as an asset-rich colony to be asset-stripped.

    249. Street Andrew says:

      Yep.

      I think most theatre venues would rate that a full house.

      It is the only political speech I have ever listened to that I would vote for.

      I think I’m in love. Sigh…

      For the nerds who like trivial signs of fundamental significance I suggest compare and contrast :-

      Theresa May’s Cough sweet. She made a surprising (for a bot) probably extempore, quip at the chancellor’s expense about him giving something away. Tories HATE tax. So by extension they are not keen on chancellors.

      Our Hero(ine) got the joke out of the way and tossed the Strepsil box to ‘a safe pair of hands’. Nothing snide about that. The SNP is not frightened witless about money. Not in awe of the bankers and funny-money brokers. It’s money – you manage it properly – it works for everybody.

      That is two serious, deep, philosophically different mindsets. That is really basic. And I think it matters. It matters to me.

      If I’d been there I’d still be clapping. The cleaners would have had to put me out with the bin bags.

      I had thought Alex (Salmond) would be a hard act to follow as leader. Maybe he was, but Nicola makes it look like a piece of cake.

      Go that lady!

    250. Cactus says:

      HOME & HOMEAGE.

      Postcard frae yer Uncle Travelling Max Matt ~

      Ra unionists are the Silly Creatures:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a294MiPZLHg

      Ye never know what they’re gonna do next!

      Unionists are the Silly Creatures.

    251. Cactus says:

      Nana’s next…

      MWAH X.

      iScotland.

      Soon.

    252. William Wallace says:

      Cactus

      One love

      Fir you and sma axe

      Lets git to gither and feel all right 😉

    253. Achnababan says:

      What Street Andrew said

    254. Ken500 says:

      Labour in the thick of it.Mult new members applications from the same e-Mail address and phone number. It must be because Granny can’t use the internet? Are these ‘activists’ getting paid for how many they sign up. The stench from Labour.

    255. Cherry says:

      @Socrates
      I’m not sure who it was that posted (Liz) I think she made a very good case for indyref2 without touching on the EU.
      Nicola stated Indy would be on the table if there was a material change ie taken out of the EU! It’s the material change that is important. Even if they can pull off stopping brexit they are still left with one huge mess. Other countries would be very sceptical about getting involved with the UK. Scotland will be affected by their reckless behaviour and why would we trust them to look after our interests. I think that no matter in or out we HAVE to ask the people ….is this what you voted for in 2014…no me either!

    256. heedtracker says:

      Another day on planet toryboy, BBC r4 Today show at the moment with Daily Heil neo fascist Quentin Letts, Nic Robinson chat away about fuck all, with Polly Toynbee, its that tory… as certainly Not Scotch whisky britnat tory’s plead with their English chancellor to cut tax, as their piss drops in sales. maybe its because they wrap union jacks round their bottles now?

      http://archive.is/ZAvJz
      Cut our tax

      She said the whisky industry supported 40,000 jobs and played a key role in Scotland’s economy, accounting for more than £4bn in exports. Scotch is Britain’s biggest food-and-drink export by far, with chocolate sales of £660m a distant second.”

    257. Breeks says:

      I love the idea of a state owned utility company, but can we be certain the state that owns it is Scotland, not the UK?

    258. Nana says:

      Opportunity for the unionists to shout and sneer.

      Parliament will debate “Agree to a second referendum on Scottish Independence” on 13/11.

      https://twitter.com/NiceConvos/status/918280083584045057

      http://www.politico.eu/article/philip-hammond-brexit-united-kingdom-must-prepare-for-bad-tempered-brexit/?

    259. heedtracker says:

      Beeb Scotland gimp network now “reality” checking FM Sturgeon, with the very clear implication, SNP baaaaaaaad, shock. Their The Claim is usual tory creep out.

      Or, how come Pacific Quay never produces this kind of Reality Check on Colonel Ruth, or whichever drippy sap takes over SLabour?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41571583

      The claim: Nicola Sturgeon told her party conference that the Scottish government’s commitment to early years education and childcare was “unmatched anywhere else in the UK” as she fleshed out plans to expand childcare provision.

      Reality Check verdict: Stop voting SNP, Scotland, SNP are bad, they must be, we’re the BBC, you can trust us:D

    260. Breeks says:

      Nana says:
      12 October, 2017 at 8:12 am
      Opportunity for the unionists to shout and sneer.

      Parliament will debate “Agree to a second referendum on Scottish Independence” on 13/11.

      ….And a Sovereignty ninja to bring the house down when they silence Scotland’s freedom to exercise a sovereign vote.

    261. manandboy says:

      http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/peering-over-the-cliff-edge-why-dominic-cummings

      One of the architects of the Leave campaign, Dominic Cummings, is worried that Brexit will end in disaster, according to Prospect magazine. May and Davis “have provided a case study of grotesque uselessness,” and “schoolchildren will shake their heads in disbelief that such characters could have had leading roles in government.”

      Civil servants are already drafting their emails with their minds on the public inquiry that will inevitably follow if Brexit ends in catastrophe, he tells the magazine.

    262. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 11 October, 2017 at 5:59 pm:

      “back, back, back still works even if you posted since, I’ve just done that and can get all 3 of my previous postings to this thread if I really wanted to!”

      Tried all that but there was absolutely no signs of the post.

      There was, though, a pop-up, (behind the open browser page), informing me that Microsoft had auto-downloaded a windows 10 update and would only install it at a time of my choosing – or after the computer was not being used for a spell.

      I had put a kettle on for a cuppa and gone for a toilet break and that seems to have triggered the update install and a computer restart.

      Let’s face it the error was mine – after all my years of computer use I should know better and do such work in an off-line text editor. Thing is I do know better but the comment was initially not intended to contain actual quoted per capita GDP and other figures and cites to their sources. All of which meant on-line searches and cutting & pasting.

    263. heedtracker says:

      manandboy

      We’re governed by tories that can sit in the BBC r4 Today show studio and calmly discuss how there could no air travel in or out of the UK, if the UK bombs out of the EU. That was Nic Robinson, very wheezy and very calm, very toryboy.

      Giant hub’s like Heathrow could easily just shut down, who knows for how long but that’s ok, its planet toryboy.

      Imagine the hysterical tory rage pouring out of any BBC tory news outfit, at just the prospect of no flights to the UK on Brexit day, had had any involvement with SNP or even Holyrood, , maybe not a Holyrood run by Colonel Ruth but even so?

    264. heedtracker says:

      Oh well the tories know what they’re doing Scotland.

      http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/11/hard-brexit-would-cost-400-billion-wipe-18-off-gdp-and-cause-a-recession-6994076/

      A ‘no deal’ would apparently leave workers in the UK £11,500 poorer, while a FTA and ‘soft’ Brexit alternative would also leave us worse off to the tune of £9,500 and £7,500 respectively.

    265. manandboy says:

      Brexit-centred media is a merry-go-round without a stop button, while statements from Westminster carry little logic and point to basic incompetence.
      Looking ahead to 29 March 2019 from todays standpoint only one of two things is going to happen, a complete u-turn or no deal.
      But today we travel a road with no other signposts.

      Another General Election in the next 9 months is looking likely in order to reboot the system.

    266. Breeks says:

      manandboy says:
      12 October, 2017 at 8:46 am
      http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/peering-over-the-cliff-edge-why-dominic-cummings

      One of the architects of the Leave campaign….

      Terrific article Manandboy.

      What struck me from top to bottom was the grim awareness that is finally dawning, but the single paragraph which states “Am I being unduly alarmist? I hope so. Britain and the EU could and should wind up striking a free trade deal”, stands out as a lingering beacon of surreal delusion.

      Dominic Cummings has deleted his Twitter account… changed his name, grown a beard, and moved to Bolivia.

    267. heedtracker says:

      Rolling tory catastrofuck, rolls along. Why do just enough Scots think that their destiny is safe in the hands of the toryboys?

      Mayhem’s clearly on the verge of a nervous breakdown, if you’re not too, you should be:D

      https://twitter.com/LBC/status/917994901551439872/video/1

    268. Welsh Sion says:

      Just received this – don’t hold your breath regarding anything positive from the yoons.

      ________

      You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Agree to a second referendum on Scottish Independence”.

      To unsubscribe from getting emails about this petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/signatures/13626483/unsubscribe?token=AfRMtbRFSaKGdbuKhqcC

      Dear Welsh Sion,

      Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “Agree to a second referendum on Scottish Independence”.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/168781

      The debate is scheduled for 13 November 2017.

      Once the debate has happened, we’ll email you a video and transcript.

      Thanks,
      The Petitions team
      UK Government and Parliament

    269. galamcennalath says:

      The fifth round of Brexit negotiations is over and there will be a statement this morning. It appears no talks took place yesterday. There are reports that the talks have completely stalled now. We’ll find out soon enough.

      WTF is the so called government in London playing at!?

      1) they really are total idiots, are consumed with infighting, and have lost the plot

      Or

      2) they want talks to fail so they can crash out and begin their über neo liberal adventures

      Or

      3) they want to provoke a crisis so a ‘clean brush’ can opt for a stay in the single market soft Brexit

      Brexit itself aside, this whole episode in UK history has highlighted the inherently poor political and sub-democratic system we are saddled with. It needs to change, big time. A straightforward rearrangement would be for Scotland to go her own way.

    270. Free Scotland says:

      Is that woman in Sanderson’s pic making a V-sign at him?

    271. manandboy says:

      amp.ft.com/content/4ddf915

      UK accused of £122m ‘failure’ in nuclear clean-up contract (link: http://bit.ly/2guuGZ8) bit.ly/2guuGZ8

      The Tories Dont Care – Red or Blue

    272. manandboy says:

      Breeks says:

      “Dominic Cummings has deleted his Twitter account… changed his name, grown a beard, and moved to Bolivia.”

      Loved that, Breeks, made me laugh.

    273. mike d says:

      Just got my copy of iscot magazine and free dvd of ‘London calling. What an eye opener. Every previous soft no voter should watch it.

    274. Ealasaid says:

      O/T
      Sorry if this has been posted before but I have received an email about a Westminster petition that is to be debated – Agree to a second referendum on Scottish Independence’.
      This is to be debated on 13th November 2017 and will be available to watch on parliament TV.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/168781

    275. manandboy says:

      Daniel Sanderson & Kenny Farquarson, copy-pasters for Murdochs BritNat gutterpress, members of the feral Loyalist group who have begrudgingly adopted the new club Sevco so as to continue their fortnightly sectarian hatefest at the corroding and crumbling SevcoDome. A permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace – also a perfect fit btw for Ruth Davidson.

    276. Brian Powell says:

      Nana

      It’s a surreal experience reading the list of Committee members meeting Barnier as the Tories and Labour members can only do what their UK Parliamentary Party decides and that is to stay with the UK and share its fate.

      It would be really useful if the Ind Scot parties were to ask the others to explain what they think will happen then tell us all what they say.

    277. manandboy says:

      Having just read the note of meeting referenced by Nana above, it occurs to me that the phrase ‘open and honest’ used recently in the LBC interview by Theresa May, can be applied more freely and with far greater confidence to the EU side, in contrast with the evasive style of the Tory Government.

    278. sensibledave says:

      galamcennalath 9:49 am

      You wrote….

      “WTF is the so called government in London playing at!?

      1) they really are total idiots, are consumed with infighting, and have lost the plot

      Or

      2) they want talks to fail so they can crash out and begin their über neo liberal adventures

      Or

      3) they want to provoke a crisis so a ‘clean brush’ can opt for a stay in the single market soft Brexit”

      …. assuming yours was a serious question rather than than just the unintelligent ramblings of a democratically outvoted Remainer, then you need to keep going with your list of “ors”

      4) … they are determined to do a good deal on behalf of the UK and are not prepared to make further concessions at this time. They believe it is now up to the EU negotiators to indicate that they do actually want a trade deal with the UK and that they do want that to be a tariff free trade deal – providing that the other issues (divorce settlement, EU citizens rights, etc).

      I know, given your stance on the outcome of the referendum on the EU, that you want the UK to stay in the UK, or you feel it would be politically advantageous to you if you can portray the negotiations as a failure, but if you want your thoughts to be taken seriously, then you have to at least pretend to understand the issues … or you just look silly.

    279. Dr Jim says:

      I remember when we were kids if you didn’t play with your supposed best pals when they wanted to they ended up wanting to batter you

      Unionists don’t ever grow up and play nice

    280. heedtracker says:

      I know, given your stance on the outcome of the referendum on the EU, that you want the UK to stay in the UK, or you feel it would be politically advantageous to you if you can portray the negotiations as a failure, but if you want your thoughts to be taken seriously, then you have to at least pretend to understand the issues … or you just look silly.

      SensibleD, for gawds sake dude, if you’re going to come on a pro YES Scotland btl comment section and insult people, can you at least try and be even remotely accurate, you berk.

      As in your, “that you want the UK to stay in the UK”

      Christ youns are mad as feck.

    281. geeo says:

      Hmm…forgot what a slaver nonsensibledave was.

      The Tory uk gov are trying so hard to get this “best deal” for the whole uk, they just recently ‘forgot’ to inform the SG of progress.

      Of course, this is no surprise, considering that the same WM gov “forgot” to inform the SG they were triggering Article 50.

      The uk gov has either No idea what they are doing in these ‘negotiations’ or they know exactly what they are doing (ensuring no deal).

      Here is a wee thought, the politicians telling you that no deal is perfectly fine, are already filthy rich people, who will not be affected by such a calamitous brexit.

      Theresa May and her mega rich husband being perfect case in point.

    282. heedtracker says:

      Theresa May and her mega rich husband being perfect case in point.

      Sensible’s in love with Teresa. Its a high tory thing, Teresa will lead us all to a bettertogether tomorrow, where England will rule the waves again, rebel Scot to crush, keep his house price going up, stick it to johnny foreigner coming over etc.

      Maybe sensible’s a feminist really. Teresa is one of the most powerful women in the world today, maybe THE most powerful. So toryboy Sensibledave’s right to worship her and her catastrofuck of a government.

    283. Robert Peffers says:

      @Joe of the Coutts says: 12 October, 2017 at 12:16 am:

      “Those with itchy fingers responding to trolls. That’s why they’re doing it.”

      First of all Joe, that’s claptrap.

      In the first place what you are attempting to call trolls is wrong. There may indeed by some Trolls involved but in the main what is going on in Wings is not trolling or flaming.

      Genuine unionist commenters have every right to openly comment and debate with us on Wings. Afer all Wings is an open forum that the Rev Stu describes as:-

      Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary

      That means it is open to all political commenters from all shades of the political spectrum of Scottish politics and we do not want it to become a cosy wee clique of only either SNP or the broader Independence movement.

      If that were so it would be a useless blog of independence supporters preaching independence to the already converted. We should welcome and debate with genuine Unionist commenters and we should respect them – if not their views. We should not, though, give them an easy time of it. It is, after all, an open forum for debate.

      Then there are those who profess to be genuine indy supporters but who seem never to do other than criticise and belittle the SG. SNP or the truths of sovereignty, Scottish Law, International Treaties and International law. These people really need to be ignored. Not because of their views but because they are flying false flags and they are Unionists calling themselves Indy supporters.

      Real Trolls have no interest in either independence or of unionism. They have one aim in mind and you can find them on any group in the entire Social Media, on-line, network.

      Trolls & Flamers have been around since the internet was invented by Tim Berners Lee:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

      All real Trolls and real Flamers should also be ignored for they have no interest in whatever the subject matter happens to be they play a far different game, and it is to them, just a game, a cynical entertainment and a mentally twisted one at that.

      However, what is going on here on Wings is a far darker game and it is part and parcel of the Westminster Establishment’s game that has been at the heart of Britain’s politics for as long as there have been people in Britain.

      It is a ploy to undermine all, and any, non-Westminster Establishment aims and aspirations whatever they may be. It is not even just unionist party propaganda for the Westminster unionist political parties are just a small part of, “The Establishment”.

      Scottish Independence is not just fighting against the Westminster political parties but against the people in the far darker shadowy background behind them.

      The very wealthy dynastic families, big business corporations, the establishment’s education systems, the UK/World’s armed forces top brass, (funded by the big business arms producers). The Civil Service upper regions and the very old, but still extant, hereditary Royalty & Aristocracy – some still sitting in the Lords today.

      It includes The Establishment Church and the, (so called), Bank of England and the London Financial Sector. Not to mention the State Police Forces and State Broadcasters and that includes the independent broadcasters besides the state funded BBC. It also includes the Mainstream Media owned by wealthy members of the Establishment.

      Then there are the several state, so called, Security Services – the so called Secret Services and the elite armed forces such as the SAS, SBS, RAF Regiment, (Which is NOT actually part of the RAF).

      If you seriously imagine that such people, who you imagine are simple Trolls, will go away if you ignore them then you are seriously wrong. Real Trolls and Flamers are easy to deal with but what is affecting Wings is far more sinister than Trolls and Flamers. Ignore these people and all they will do is change their identity and keep on doing what they do.

      Several alert Wingers have already remarked upon how the names changed but the style of the person is still identifiable.

      As someone put it a while back when they notes just such a change of name – “Have you ever seen ****** and ***** in the same room at the same time”?

      What is more the Rev Stu himself blasted one such name shifter for posting under more than two different aliases.

    284. Macart says:

      @Nana 11.14

      Good catch Nana. Mr Barnier pretty much crystal clear.

    285. galamcennalath says:

      …. swims past bait, decides to avoid all future bait on that line ….

    286. David Wardrope says:

      It’s quite obvious that folks were being asked to move forward, then to the side, then to the back, then to the other side to trick the pictures being taken…

    287. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 12 October, 2017 at 12:20 am:

      ” … The only one who is breaking the Laws and the Constitution. Including Catalonian rule of Law is Pingudemon,. He owns the national propaganda TV Station. There is no free and fair democracy anywhere in the world where that would be tolerated.”

      Hilarious, Ken500, So why are the BBC tolerated? Why is BskyB tolerated? Why is Virgin Tolerated? All in the United Kingdom.

      What of the several broadcasters in the USA that solidly propaganda propagate for USA political factions?

    288. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers at 12:47pm.

      Whereby I don my “Proud Pedant” bunnet and point out that Tim Berners-Lee did not invent the internet – he invented the World Wide Web, which used the already existing internet.

    289. Nana says:

      Press statement by Michel Barnier following the fifth round of Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom

      http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3921_en.htm

    290. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re the Internet , yup it was first designed in the Cold War around 1972 as a way for US military based to be able to still communicate with those surviving bases after a nuclear strike . Up until then Networks were designed likes spokes of a wheel radiating out from a main hub , so if the hub went down the who network went tits up. Having worked in the defence industry Robert would know that although the UK military network was still the hub and spoke arrangement until recently if its changed at all. What the Internet did was as the name suggests was to have multiple connections to different bases so there was a way to bypass the hub and individual bases could still communicate to one another if the main hub went down. Remember it’s only fairly recently that there has been the technology to allow high speed data transfer, forty years ago most Military networks ran on average at 50 bytes per sec (it was actually a unit called Baud which was based on symbols per second) and the message character set was based on the Telex standard.

    291. Jack Murphy says:

      Thankyou Poster Nana for your all links at 7:49am today,this one in particular being a real eye opener regarding BBC Reporting Scotland.

      http://indyref2.scot/brexit-yet-more-stories-missing-from-reporting-scotland

      Article begins:
      “What can you say about Reporting Scotland? A national disappointment is probably the most polite thing. Ah well … let’s see what it’s been up to now.

      BBC Scotland’s flagship news programme is very selective with stories it covers in relation to Brexit……”

      They are a total embarrassment, both to themselves and viewers in Scotland.

    292. Robert Graham says:

      Looks like today’s BBC ( rubbish the SNP )story of the the day is , drum roll , tarah yes its Fire & Rescue’s turn today .

      I wonder if they spin a wheel or its a throw of the dice , or possibly a set menu .

      Monday – education
      Tuesday – Police
      Wednesday – Health
      Thursday – fire & Rescue
      Friday – any subdivision of the above . shortage of staff , poor results etc the list is endless .

      But the common thread is how crap everything is ,the whole country is about to come to a standstill, and it as ever is down to the ” * * * ” fill in the letters yourself , no prizes given for a correct answer . And definatly no comparisons with services in other parts of england’s empire are allowed .

    293. Welsh Sion says:

      Ealasaid says:
      12 October, 2017 at 11:31 am

      Re: Westminster Debate on Indy.

      Great minds think alike, Ealasaid! See me @ 9.48 this morning. 🙂

    294. mike d says:

      Dr jim 12.11pm. Which is why i battered the b******s first. Lol.

    295. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 12 October, 2017 at 8:24 am:

      “….And a Sovereignty ninja to bring the house down when they silence Scotland’s freedom to exercise a sovereign vote.”

      Utter Pish! Breeks. There is no legislation against anyone in the United Kingdom, either under Scottish or English law, holding a referendum on anything whatsoever.

      The most that Westminster can do is state, (before the event), that they will not regard the result as legally binding by Westminster but they cannot stop the SG holding a referendum.

    296. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      Press statement by Michel Barnier following the fifth round of Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom

      Thanks for that. It’s important to get the source rather than some msm summary which might, or might not, be spun.

      The language says a lot. While the UK msm portray the negotiations as some sort of give and take game, Barnier specifically talks about that and says it has nothing to do with “concessions”. None are given, none are expected.

      The talks revolve around finding agreed solutions to particular issues which Brexit has caused. None can be left unresolved.

    297. stewartb says:

      heedtracker @ 9:13 am

      You state: “A ‘no deal’ would apparently leave workers in the UK £11,500 poorer, while a FTA and ‘soft’ Brexit alternative would also leave us worse off to the tune of £9,500 and £7,500 respectively.”

      (Just for ‘fun’, cast your mind back to this.) In 2014 The Treasury (through that ProudScotbut Daniel Alexander) and Better Together set out to scare us that independence would make people in Scotland £1,400 worse off. Obviously, a ‘huge’ amount that we would be crazy to vote for.

      But now it sounds like independence for Scotland within the EU is, by a long way, the best deal financially on these figures: an ‘independence bonus’! £1,400 worse off or (at least) £7,500 worse off – the choice should be a no brainer, except of course for British Nationalists in Scotland that are willing to make any financial sacrifice.

      It does beg the question, what price will Labour in Scotland make workers here forego to hold on to its British Nationalist ‘solidarity’?

    298. Petra says:

      Nana if only all Scots had access to the links that you post on a daily basis. If only! We’d be out of this dysfunctional Union in a heartbeat.

      You couldnae make some of it up. Then again it’s clear that they do.

      https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/10/10/tories-nhs-doctors-nurses-to-be-replaced-with-volunteers-with-just-15-each-for-training/

      So many people in this country still believing that we have a special relationship with the US, controller of Trident, and that we’re going to get some amazing trade deals. Nothing could be further from the truth. The relationship is a joke and the deals will be cataclysmic for us.

      https://twitter.com/RTUKnews/status/918055086944694272
      ……………………………………………………………………………………

      WGD: Hypothetical situations:

      ‘’…..Theresa voted remain in the EU referendum, albeit none too enthusiastically, but now she’s the woman who is taking the UK out of the EU, who is leading negotiations and is planning the country’s future, one which she’s always telling us is going to be a rip roaring buccaneering free marketing success. By refusing to answer the question, she was telling us all that even she has no confidence in the policies that she’s trying to sell to the rest of us. By avoiding the question she’s only decreased what little confidence remained in her, and decreased the little confidence that remained that she’s able to produce a Brexit that’s not going to create huge damage to the country….’’

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/10/11/hypothetical-situations/

      https://twitter.com/RTUKnews/status/918055086944694272

      ……………………………………………………………….

      Great work Indyref2. Very time consuming no doubt.

      High time that Marr and some of his mates were given their P45s.

      http://indyref2.scot/did-andrew-marr-give-ruth-davidson-an-easy-time

    299. orri says:

      I’d forgotten I’d signed that petition and now regret that I did so.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/168781

      Agree to a second referendum on Scottish Independence

      Given recent events in Catalonia I fully expect that the word Agree will be deliberately conflated with Allow and further that this will get May off the hook as far as responding in person to the S30 request by passing the buck to Westminster a whole.

      Holyrood does not need Westminster to either allow or agree to a referendum. At least not under the current devolution arrangement.

    300. Petra says:

      @ Cherry says at 7:51am …. I’m not sure who it was that posted (Liz) I think she made a very good case for indyref2 without touching on the EU. Nicola stated Indy would be on the table if there was a material change ie taken out of the EU! It’s the material change that is important. Even if they can pull off stopping brexit they are still left with one huge mess. Other countries would be very sceptical about getting involved with the UK. Scotland will be affected by their reckless behaviour and why would we trust them to look after our interests. I think that no matter in or out we HAVE to ask the people ….is this what you voted for in 2014…no me either!’’

      Liz g did make an excellent point Cherry. Even if Brexit doesn’t go ahead the ‘carry-on’ that we’ve witnessed, an ‘exercise’ that has highlighted the total lack of control that we have over crucial decision-making, should tell us that it’s more than ever the time to bail out. I would imagine that if they call off Brexit there’ll be riots in the streets south of the border, and even more attacks made against migrants, adding some impetus to us wanting to leave this hellish Union.

      ……………………………………….

      I hear on the news that many Tories now want Hammond to resign and be replaced by someone like Gove. If May is replaced by Johnston, and we’re being ruled over by a Gove / Johnston team, we’ll be plunged into Armageddon. On a positive note that may help us to get out of this too.

      …………………………………………

      @ ben madigan says at 12:17am …’’@ petra who said “Arlene Foster is saying No deal, no way, to T May’s “No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.”

      Surprised?”

      No not surprised Ben just passing on what I’d heard on the news and seeing Arlene’s nasty wee face being even more twisted looking than it normally is.

      Posted in fact to get a response from someone like yourself who has more insight into what’s going on there. So thanks for that. One wonders if and when a No Deal is announced would that trigger a reunification Referendum in NIreland? Any thoughts on that?

    301. Petra says:

      From Prof Robertson:

      ‘Scotland’s expertise in renewable power generation now worth billions.’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/10/12/scotlands-expertise-in-renewable-power-generation-now-worth-billions/

      ……………………….

      ‘Is Scotland as the ‘Saudi of wind’ concept getting more real? ‘Wind and waves?’ Solar too?’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/10/12/is-scotland-as-the-saudi-of-wind-concept-getting-more-real-wind-and-waves-solar-too/

      ……………………..

      ‘First a National Bank, now a National Energy Company: More good ideas from the SNP Conference but would the EU allow it?’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/10/11/first-a-national-bank-now-a-national-energy-company-more-good-ideas-from-the-snp-conference-but-would-the-eu-allow-it/

    302. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      Yes, military was the big user, and there was some airline usage in the 70s and before that some exerimental use – first email I sent was in the early 70s. I think it said “hello world” 🙂 Then Janet, the college / uni network in the 80s.

    303. Breeks says:

      Macart says:
      12 October, 2017 at 12:51 pm
      @Nana 11.14

      “Good catch Nana. Mr Barnier pretty much crystal clear.”

      Agreed. It isn’t very long, 6 pages, but I would strongly recommend everybody reads it carefully. My immediate impression was that it is really quite unsettling at this stage of the process that the fate of Scotland is still so closely linked to the fate of the UK.

      Mr Barnier told the Committee that he received them with pleasure and that his door was open to them. He said that he had also received Scotland’s First Minister and the Welsh First Minister as well as other actors, but that he negotiated only with the UK Government.

      Begs the question whether Scotland’s contingency plans for Brexit are receiving any active constructive input or guidance from Europe at all, formal or informal.

      Barnier presents a problem for the UK securing a Free Trade Agreement is that the UK’s economy post Brexit would be diverging away from the EU, and the EU would want to see some control of an economy diverging in the wrong direction and ditching EU standards and compliance criteria. I imagine that’s quite a conundrum for a diverging UK economy currently snipping the EU labels off its underpants, and licking its lips thinking about Uncle Don’s American Allstar meat products.

      Its difficult to suppress the shadenfreude of knowing Westminster and UKIP have brought all of this upon their own heads, but beware the Government Health Warning : This UK may still contain Scotland.

      I fear Europe cannot help us until we first save ourselves. Even before Brexit or any referendum, we must stake some formal claim that formally registers with the EU that Scotland has some semblance of quasi sovereignty, right now, today, so that Scotland can formally liaise with the EU and prepare diligent Brexit contingency plans of its own.

      Michel Barnier already has his brief, his parameters, and responsibilities. It’s all very well having discussions with M. Barnier, but I wonder whether a parallel strategy would benefit from asking the EU for Scotland’s own separate negotiatior, with a subtly different brief from Michel Barnier. We should at least be asking the questions how short of actual sovereign status can we be before the EU is prepared to recognise it can formally discuss Scotland’s distinct future on both sides and all possible outcomes of Brexit.

      It is heartening to see a cross party Hollyrood committee actually meeting Barnier, but it concerns me too. Brexit, despite Westminster’s crack-handed mishandling of it, has a structure and framework to follow. Scotland acting alone is significantly disadvantaged in that there is no framework or guidance to shepherd a Nation-in-waiting with our unique circumstance towards a satisfactory conclusion.

    304. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      12 October, 2017 at 2:20 pm
      @Breeks says: 12 October, 2017 at 8:24 am

      “…The most that Westminster can do is state, (before the event), that they will not regard the result as legally binding by Westminster but they cannot stop the SG holding a referendum”.

      CORRECT! Robert. – And then do to Scotland exactly what the Spanish Government did to the Catalans, declare their referendum illegal and unconstitutional, and torpedo amidships any chance of securing International Recognition for it.

    305. sensibledave says:

      geeo 12:35 pm

      Paraphrasing: Hmm…forgot what a slaver geeeo is … To predictably rubbish every action or approach of every politician …. that isn’t an SNP politician.

      You wrote: “The Tory uk gov are trying so hard to get this “best deal” for the whole uk, they just recently ‘forgot’ to inform the SG of progress.”

      Ms Sturgeon doesnt try to hard her antipathy for every other party and the decided policy of the UK electorate with respect the EU .. so it should be no surprise that people are not beating a path her door to get her advice on the best negotiation strategy.

      You worote “Of course, this is no surprise, considering that the same WM gov “forgot” to inform the SG they were triggering Article 50.”

      … do you not have “the news” in Scotland? Our build up to signing and the actual signing received a running commentary as I recall.

      You wrote “The uk gov has either No idea what they are doing in these ‘negotiations’ or they know exactly what they are doing (ensuring no deal).”

      … but, as usual, you missed out a whole load of other possibilities.

      You wrote “Here is a wee thought, the politicians telling you that no deal is perfectly fine, are already filthy rich people, who will not be affected by such a calamitous brexit.”

      Just so I know, if you were part of our negotiating team and the EU only offered terms that you found completely unacceptable, what would you do? It appears that you would be faced with one of two options a) accept the unacceptable or b) not accept the unacceptable.

      If, by “not accepting the unacceptable” your alternative strategy is to Remain, then that plays straight into the hands of our friends in the EU.

      I know this is an impossible “ask” (because you can’t and you wont), but could you just write down some highlights of a deal that you think would be acceptable to both the EU and the UK and is therefore “achievable” please.

    306. orri says:

      Using “the news” to anticipate Westminster events as a substitute for being formally and politely informed is a poor substitute given that you don’t know whether what’s being reported is a genuine intent, a probe to gauge public mood, a genuine leak or an attempt to force the governments hand.

    307. Meg merrilees says:

      Heedtracker 7.52am

      Re the drop in whisky sales – it may be the price, but a tax of 35p on a bottle will not really put many off buying their bottle of malt.
      More likely the packaging would and of course there is a huge increase in gin drinking in Scotland.

      Did you register last week, someone pointed out ( was it you, can’t remember?) that on M&S online shopping – alcohol dept- they sell Indian, Irish, US and English whisky but the three Scotch whisky’s on sale are listed under Great Britain!!! Why???

      http://www.marksandspencer.com/l/wine-shop/wine-beer-and-spirits/spirits/whisky

      Closer inspection shows the Scottish bottles listed as a product of Great Britain Scotland whilst the English whisky is shown as a product of England Norfolk

      Wonder why English whisky is not listed as Great Britain also?

      I love Lidl.

    308. Snode1965 says:

      Sensible Dave
      Any negotiation requires two initial positions…we know the EU position, can you tell me the UK initial position?

    309. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says: 12 October, 2017 at 1:15 pm:

      “Whereby I don my “Proud Pedant” bunnet and point out that Tim Berners-Lee did not invent the internet – he invented the World Wide Web, which used the already existing internet.”

      Lend me yer bunnet a meenit, Brian, while I point out that what Tim Berniers-Lee used was NOT an existing internet – it was a very restricted private web used at CERN that was itself based upon an even more private web used by the USA Armed Forces. It was designed to allow people to work together by combining their knowledge in a web of hypertext documents.

      Tim wrote the first World Wide Web server, “httpd”, and also the first client, “WorldWideWeb”, which was a WYSIWYG, (what-you-see-is-what-you-get). It was, in fact a basic hypertext browser/editor that ran in the NeXTStep environment.

      Tim’s work started in October 1990, but the program “WorldWideWeb” first became available only within CERN in December 1990. It only,reached, “The Internet”, at large in the summer of 1991.

      So make of that what you will – many USAsians still believe that the USA armed forces web invented the internet and give little credit to Tim Berniers-Lee.

      BTW: A fellow worker in Rosyth Dockyard DADIAC moved to work for CERN when the Yard was privatised in the late 1990s.

    310. sensibledave says:

      Snode1965 says: 3:35 pm

      You wrote “Any negotiation requires two initial positions…we know the EU position, can you tell me the UK initial position?”

      Yep ….

      !. we want the EU citizens rights thing agreed reciprically
      2. we want to honour our legal obligations under the divorce
      3. We want a tariff free trade deal with the EU
      4. We dont want free movement
      5. We dont want ECJ

      As a test of the “fairness” of such a broad deal, have a look at the agreement with deal the Eu has with Canada – it represents a good starting point for a trade deal (other we can make it better for both sides because of the scale of the trade between us and because of our geographical location).

      The other issues (courts, free movement, EU citizens rights) are not part of the Canada deal and everyone seems quite happy with the arrangements.

      So, assuming the EU negotiators are not total numpties (I dont think they are), they will know, that we know, that they will do a tariff free trade deal – [providing the other issues (divorce, ECJ, etc) are sorted – which is why they are basing their whole brinkmanship on their strategy of no talks about trade until everything else is sorted. In the mean time and at the same time, we all know that nothing is actually agreed until everything is agreed.

      its called … negotiation, Snodey

    311. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      What Tim Berniers-Lee invented was the WWW. Scripting language existed before that, GML is one example I used in the very early 80s to put together documetns (such as my CV!). WWW was sent over the Internet, and pedants would say that the Internet is spelt with a capital I, whereas corporate or private ones were spelt with a small “i”.

    312. Meg merrilees says:

      O/T

      Here’s why we need our own media!!!

      Just talking with my sister recently – I consider her to be a fair indicator of how well/badly informed the average scot is re our politics… in other words, how little they really know.
      ( e.g. she said she was going to vote for Corbyn at the GE because he was getting rid of tuition fees and nationalising the water supply – suffice to say she was informed they were SNP policies and voted SNP.)

      Anyway, in chatting, she said she wondered if Theresa May would survive the week – now this struck me as really unusual because she rarely knows anything about what is going on in the country’s politics.
      When I asked what she meant she started to talk about how Nicola had made a bad joke about May’s coughing fit and that was not nice.

      I asked if she had heard Nicola’s speech, because it had been SO brilliant with lots of really good policies and future plans… No, she hadn’t heard it.

      Did she hear Mhairi Black’s amazing speech –
      No, but didn’t she give up a couple of years ago because she hated it so much?

      Absolutely not, I said, in fact I thought Mhairi had a really bright future and that she could be a leader one day to which my sister replied…

      I thought it was ‘Ruth whats her name’ that’s expected to be the next leader. I hear her speaking on TV all the time.

      That really worries me.
      If I try and gently tell her some of the good and bad things that are happening she invariably says – please stop, I can’t take it all in. I’m not really interested in politics anyway.

      This same sister didn’t bother to vote in the Council elections and now has a Tory council which is cutting back the very education sector where she works and she will most likely have no job in 6 months time.

      WHEN will the light bulb go on in people’s minds that their choice can and does influence their lives considerably, there is a better way and all you have to do is choose it.

    313. heedtracker says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      12 October, 2017 at 3:34 pm
      Heedtracker 7.52am

      Re the drop in whisky sales

      Its probably down to this kind of Scottish Whisky Association vote NO or else Scots, in stinky old Graun, 2014.

      Food & drink industry
      Scotch on the rocks: whisky makers warned of independence risks
      A new Scottish government would face ‘mountainous task’ in striking trade deals beyond Europe, says Dutch bank

      http://archive.is/dpo7X

      Its not quite up there Deutsche Bank says Scotland will cause a 1930’s style Great Depression right enough.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-29189320/deutsche-bank-warning-over-scottish-independence

      Takes you back eh? And BBC Scotland gimp network were really just warming up, for the next few years of Scotland’s a shithole so no ref2 campaigning.

      But even so, if you’re trading on Scotland’s name, then turn round and announce to the whole world, that actually, Scotland is a shithole and Scots cannae run a bath, let alone their own country, that might have some affect sales of your expensive piss.

      Affect or effect?

      The Vow shyste promised devo max but all Scots whisky tax revenue still pours in to the Treasury, and they still tell Scots we’re bums on the mooch, off of English largesse. Which does make it tricky to smear SNP Scots gov

      But beeb gimps certainly will anyway.

    314. Flower of Scotland says:

      Just saw Spain,s fascists creating havoc, burning Catalonian flags, throwing tables and chairs at police at a cafe in Barcelona!

      This was on Euronews in “no comment”

      Why are they not showing Spain,s Fascist at work on British TV? Euronews are not pro Independent Catalonia but at least showing this outrage.

      It fair makes me greet!

      Of course Cat Boyd in all her wonder wants to frighten Indy supporting Scots by saying that this could happen in Scotland!

    315. geeo says:

      You must have misunderstood my post which referenced you, nonsensicle dave.

      I am not about to enter debate with a fuckwit like you. None of your unionist claptrap interests me.

      So kindly fuck off.

    316. wull2 says:

      The Media constantly/daily, “Scotland does not want Independence”
      This is a trick to try and get us not to talk about it, so tell all your friends, no matter what party they vote for, they might support Independence, that you are on the YES side.

    317. Dan Huil says:

      British nationalists are determined to drag Scotland down to their xenphobic britnat level. British nationalists are even demanding Scotland should support them in their narrow-minded britnat desires.

      Aye right.

    318. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 12 October, 2017 at 1:37 pm:

      ” … forty years ago most Military networks ran on average at 50 bytes per sec (it was actually a unit called Baud which was based on symbols per second) and the message character set was based on the Telex standard.”

      Indeed so, Lenney, and for those who don’t know a rough idea of the speed can be judged by anyone familiar with old movies that often showed the newspaper editors or very rich heads of international stockbrokers with ticker tape machines that produced punched tape, punched cards or less often teletype machines clattering away one letter at a time.

      That was the basic baud-rate when the net first got going. At military level the signal was also encrypted. We used to always have a teletype machine, (cough!), “on test”, decrypting the signals from an RN communications radio receiver tuned to a News agency transmitter.

      We got the news, including the fitba’ horses and greyhound results before the BBC did.

      All printed out on wide paper sheets that came on a big roll. This had alternate coloured and plain lines to print on. The idea of those alternate lines was to help synchronising the lines of type on the pages.

      When computers came along it was those crypto keyboards and printers they used when they began the move from punched tape and cards to print. Mind you we did have CRT monitors too.

      Originally adapted from old RADAR PPI displays. You will know that type of thing – from old films too. These were the RADAR displays with a circling line painting wee bright blips upon a round screen.

    319. Alex Clark says:

      @wull2

      I wear my YES badge everyday pinned to my jacket, it’s noticed but very rarely commented on and if it is it’s always YES supporters saying “me too”. Never has a NO voter had a word.

      Worth keeping the idea of YES visible.

    320. K1 says:

      What a lot of wee wee.

    321. Valerie says:

      @ Meg merrilees

      Sympathies, I stopped talking to my mother, who to be fair is 80+, but it doesn’t stop her spouting opinionated drivel.

      Her eldest child is obviously an idiot, unworthy of even doing the respect of giving a hearing.

      She loves her free bus pass, but that came to her courtesy of the Daily Record – obviously.

    322. Nana says:

      Apologies if I have not replied to anyone, I’m in a rush today and as I won’t be here tomorrow I will post links as and when I find them.

      http://indyref2.scot/alternative-media

      Was it on reporting Scotland?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7-DRVwKyyQ&app=desktop

      https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/10/12/brexit-trade-deal-us-
      uk-delegation/

      http://dbrockmp.scot/my-blogs/brock-leads-debate-on-the-rights-of-disabled-people

    323. orri says:

      The decline in Scotch sales might be an intended slash and burn kind of thing.

      More likely the industry relied on mythos of tartan and highlands to sell it’s wares. Slapping a “British” tag on and draping it in the Union Jack is a tad self defeating and at the same time arrogant.

    324. sensibledave says:

      geeo 4:06 pm

      You wrote “I am not about to enter debate with …..”

      I know that geeo, I am way out of your league. Glad you recognise your limitations.

    325. CameronB Brodie says:

      Meg merrilees
      Unfortunately, decision making skills don’t come naturally to some. Here’s what the experts would recommend.

      Smart Choices: A Practical Guide to Making Better Life Decisions

      Authors’ big thought: Decisions shape our experiences, from choosing which job to accept, to having the right car, to selecting a good accountant. How do we know which is the smart one? How can we be consistent and confident in our decisions? In this award-wining bestseller, readers learn how to approach all types of decisions with a simple set of skills developed from professors from Harvard, MIT, and the University of Southern California.,

      http://www.evagregorycounselingonline.com/upload/A%20SMART%20CHOICES.pdf

      Smart Choices: Practical Guide to Making Better Decisions
      http://www.indiana.edu/~koertge/H205/Smart1.htm

      PrOACT Decision Making Model
      http://www.project-management-skills.com/decision-making-model.html

    326. CameronB Brodie says:

      sensibledave
      You’re a prick.

    327. Alex Clark says:

      @Nana

      I’ve thanked you now and again but just wish to say the work you do in providing these links is invaluable to WOS. I don’t read them all but most of them and I’m better informed for doing that.

      What you provide is unique to Wings. Enjoy your day off 🙂

    328. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      Takes you back eh?

      Indeed. The world now is so different to 2013/14. All that was said then versus where we are now, which couldn’t have been imagined. And in so many respects the promises of continued Union and the supposed threats of independence have been reversed!

      I think of Ruth Davidson lecturing Patrick Harvey that a NO vote was the guaranteed way to keep our EU membership. Jeez, what can you say?

      The divergence from the picture painted for the ongoing Union, and the reality of what has transpired, is probably going to move much further before we resolve the mess.

      Another way to look at it is, while we YES supporters didn’t get an opportunity to pursue our aspirations, a Hell of a lot of NO voters haven’t got what the expected either!

    329. Colin Alexander says:

      Would Spain’s economy crash without Catalonia and need an EU bailout and so that’s why the EU sided so firmly with Spain?

      Likewise, until the UK Govt went for Brexit, let’s be honest here, the EU were firmly sided with the UK and anti-Scotland independence.

      I would say, for the same reason.

      And if Scotland went out the EU, as (some in the ) EU said would happen, the EU would lose the right to plunder our fishing grounds.

      It didn’t suit the EU economically and politically. Law, fundamental human rights, democracy etc, that falls by the wayside if it doesn’t suit the politicians of European countries and the EU.

    330. Nana says:

      Tory leader invited to the highlands to see the real consequences of universal credit.
      http://archive.is/eWsoY

      https://angusmacneilsnp.com/2017/10/12/callous-home-office-leaves-island-schoolgirl-stateless-they-are-unable-to-confirm-that-islander-is-a-british-citizen-isles-mp-raises-issue-at-westminster/

      Electricity consumers ‘to fund nuclear weapons through Hinkley Point C’
      http://archive.is/S2zap

      Holidaymakers are being told they will not receive compensation if flights are grounded after Brexit.
      http://archive.is/DKysH

    331. Paula Rose says:

      Correction time – the EU does not plunder our fishing grounds.

    332. CameronB Brodie says:

      Colin Alexander
      So, what does your crystal ball tell you, what future for Scotland would you recommend?

    333. Alex Clark says:

      Just a wee last push needed.

      https://www.gofundme.com/battlebbcbias

    334. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 12 October, 2017 at 3:20 pm:

      ” … CORRECT! Robert. – And then do to Scotland exactly what the Spanish Government did to the Catalans, declare their referendum illegal and unconstitutional, and torpedo amidships any chance of securing International Recognition for it.”

      Have you some form of reading difficulty, Breeks?

      It certainly seems like it.

      First of all I stated, correctly, there are no laws in either Scottish law or under English Law that prevent anyone holding a referendum on anything whatsoever, (there is no such thing as UK Law and Westminster legislates under the English Rule of Law. It then adds wee paragraphs at the End of the English Acts to include and differences caused by Scots law).

      Then we have the Catalonia/Spain situation – which is entirely a different matter. First of all Spain has only one rule of law and it includes all of Spain’s autonomous regions, including Catalonia.

      The country of Scotland and the country of England are two different countries and the United Kingdom is a Kingdom – it is not legally a country.

      The Kingdom of Scotland & The Kingdom of England are different Kingdoms and the Kingdom of England contains three countries. The two Kingdoms are in a bipartite union of kingdoms called The United Kingdom.

      Thus Scotland & England +Wales and +N.I. are under English Legal Jurisdiction and Scotland is under Scottish Jurisdiction. There is no such rule of Law as United Kingdom Law.

      That all means that Spanish Law applies throughout Spain and it includes Catalonia. English law does NOT apply in Scotland.

      What is more there are Spanish laws that bar Spanish autonomous regions from acting against the Government of Spain. These laws are a throw back to when Spain was a dictatorship under Franco and were formulated to prevent further dictatorships.

      Spanish law does not apply to either Scotland or England. It is rather silly to attempt to compare the two different situations and conclude that because Spain can enforce Spanish law upon a part of Spain then the United KINGDOM, or indeed England, can enforce English law upon a Scotland that is a different jurisdiction.

      It is simple – The UK operates under two different rules of law and Westminster legislates under English law but accommodates Scots law in its legislation, (See Article of Union Number 19).

      In any case there are no laws against holding referendums under either Scottish or English law.

      As I stated the best Westminster can do is to not accept that any particular referendum is binding upon Westminster and, from their POV, that would be totally counter-productive.

      Matter of fact the norm is that referendums are only advisory – unless agreed binding beforehand. Thus for Westminster to declare beforehand, or declare after the event that they will not abide by the result would certainly show them as anti-democratic, (but we know that already).

    335. Colin Alexander says:

      “The EU do not plunder our fishing grounds”.

      Correct, the EU plunders UK fishing grounds with UK Govt permission. Scotland does not have anything, as part of the UK.

      @CameronB Brodie I think the EU ship has sailed. In Scotland we couldn’t stomach fascism whether by Nazis in WW2 or Spanish police in 2017.

      We can’t stomach those who condone it with mealy mouthed mince or support it, even big shots from the EU – or the UK Govt.

      The first step is independence. Nothing decided till we get that. Then we look at what’s best for Scotland.

      Maybe we’ll be part of a different trading bloc that’s not the EU. One that’s a trade organisation, not a political one that betrays basic human rights.

    336. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 12 October, 2017 at 4:30 pm:

      “You wrote “I am not about to enter debate with …..”
      I know that geeo, I am way out of your league. Glad you recognise your limitations.”

      Now that did make me laugh at sensibledave.

    337. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Rock at 10.23pm

      I do love the way you know everything. The EU has made no definitive or official statement on Catalonia’s right to seek independence.”

      The EU did not say a word when the fascist Spanish state used brute force against Catalonians to prevent them from voting.

      I can say with 100% confidence that Saint Theresa is not going to give permission to Nicola to hold another referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa.

      If by the 1% chance she does, the referendum will be “illegal”.

      The fascist British state will not allow it to happen.

      Do you believe that the EU will say anything in Scotland’s favour before, during or after any referendum held without Saint Theresa’s permission?

    338. Alex Clark says:

      Feel the desperation. Smell their fear. Laugh at them hahhahahaha.

    339. mike d says:

      When indy ref2 is called, dont set the date for 6mnths to a year in advance,giving these bbc and msm b******s time to batter our senses with their 24/7 state propoganda,telling us how sh*te we are. Set a quick date 2 mnths or so.

    340. mike d says:

      Sorry. Propaganda.

    341. Colin Alexander says:

      @Rock

      Naebdy can answer that yin: What if the UK Govt say No, or more likely, just ignore requests for a Section 30 this side of 2021?

      Correction: I’m told ( correctly): Scotland’s Govt disnae need permission to hold referendums.

      Correct, but a ref in those circumstances would have no legal power to change the constitution of the UK. In other words, we can hold an indyref, but it would be an opinion referendum with no ability to empower Scotland to become independent.

      I’ll avoid comparisons with Spain / Catalonia.

      The SNP have given no answer to that either. I suspect that’s because they have no answer to that.

      I do: if Section 30 is refused, they go with my preferred option: indy by Holyrood election. If the SNP win the election: they hold a parliament vote. Holyrood can vote on anything, but again it’s not legally binding on UK Govt. But if Holyrood votes Aye to indy, we declare the intention to dissolve the Union Treaty and open negotiations with the UK Govt to facilitate a smooth transition to UK Treaty end.

      Of course, there’s nae chance that will happen under the current leadership policies of the SNP.

    342. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Genuine unionist commenters have every right to openly comment and debate with us on Wings.”

      They certainly give you an opportunity to unleash your verbal diarrhoea on every thread.

      Don’t forget, you don’t read my comments, so you will not have read this one.

    343. galamcennalath says:

      ” Here we are again,” said Michel Barnier, with more than a hint of resignation. “The same two people … ” Neither of whom could quite bring themselves to look each other in the eye. ….. Neither man’s desperate insistence that progress had been made cut any ice with an audience of reporters who had sat through the four previous nihilistic press conferences.”

      http://archive.is/Lt2RG

      That seems a big contrast from the Barnier of Nana’s link at 11:14 …

      http://www.parliament.scot/S5_European/General%20Documents/CTEER_2017.10.10_Note_of_meeting_with_Mr_Barnier.pdf

      …. when he met representatives from the Scottish Parliament. That report is certainly worth reading, for anyone who so far hasn’t. Much is covered.

      I seem to remember some of the absolute guff said in the Leave campaign regarding future relationships. The most wayward of all was the claim that the UK could have individual deals with each EU state – that goes beyond simple lies.

      On this topic of future relationships Barnier’s thoughts are worth digesting. He emphasises the reality that the ~30 current free trade agreements are based on the assumption that the two sides will converge in terms of regulations and standards. The UK on the other hand is 100% EU compliant now but most Brexiteers envisage plans to diverge!

      That was another less deceitful Leave claim – since the UK currently applies EU standards, a trade deal will be simple. It’s this view which is simple, as Barnier highlights.

      IMO, three options. Cancel, Norway, or just leave.

    344. Nana says:

      Thank you Alex, while I’m able I will carry on linking!
      You are right Alex, laugh at them loud and often.

      I do miss Spitting image, imagine the fun they could have right now
      https://twitter.com/TheNewEuropean/status/918131450716872705

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-12/hard-brexit-would-cost-u-k-15-000-per-person-rabobank-says?cmpid=socialflow-

      https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/news/89765/liam-fox-mocked-after-new-board-trade-only-has-him-member

      20 participating member states confirm the creation of an European Public Prosecutor’s Office
      http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/10/12-eppo-20-ms-confirms/

      Going to take a few days off, see you all on Monday and hope everyone has a nice weekend.

    345. Golfnut says:

      To no one in particular, but I see that the drivel regarding Nicola asking permission to hold a referendum is being punted.
      Nicola already has a mandate to hold a referendum, we the electorate gave it to her by voting SNP and Greens, their respective manifestos both contained this.
      The permission Nicola sought was from the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum and to agree terms with westminster on a Section 30 order. Westminster can refuse to agree terms, but it does not prevent a referendum being held.

    346. Rock says:

      Colin Alexander,

      “I do: if Section 30 is refused, they go with my preferred option: indy by Holyrood election.”

      That route was sealed off when Alex Salmond sought Cameron’s permission to hold the 1st independence referendum. A precedent was set. Anything else is now “illegal”.

      Quite unexpectedly, a one in a 1000 years golden opportunity arose with the SNP having 56 out of 59 MPs, 50% of the vote, a remain vote in Scotland, the EU’s eyes favourably) on Scotland, the unionist parties without leaders and completely lost.

      That was the moment to strike. Scotland was on the verge of independence.

      But Nicola spectacularly squandered this once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      There is no guarantee that the SNP will get a majority in 2021. In my view, it is highly unlikely. The black arts department of the British establishment will make sure it doesn’t happen.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.

      For the avoidance of any doubt, my mantra has long been and remains:

      “Always vote, and always vote SNP only until after independence.”

    347. Ken500 says:

      @ Rock just get lost you. Lying Stirrer. Every post a lie.

      Have you ever visited EU countries. Or had blinkers on. When and what EU counties have you visited. You haven’t got a clue. Most of them are beautiful counties., extremely well run. Equal and happy. Much better than Westminster. Dumb feck.

    348. Rock says:

      A collection of Robert Peffers gems on this thread:

      Robert Peffers says:
      12 October, 2017 at 12:47 pm

      “First of all Joe, that’s claptrap.”

      Robert Peffers says:
      12 October, 2017 at 1:08 pm

      “Hilarious, Ken500, So why are the BBC tolerated? Why is BskyB tolerated? Why is Virgin Tolerated? All in the United Kingdom.”

      Robert Peffers says:
      12 October, 2017 at 2:20 pm

      “Utter Pish! Breeks.”

      Robert Peffers says:
      12 October, 2017 at 5:41 pm

      “Have you some form of reading difficulty, Breeks?”

      Robert Peffers says:
      12 October, 2017 at 6:01 pm

      “Now that did make me laugh at sensibledave.”

      Keep on “debating” Robert Peffers!

      Remember, you don’t read my posts.

    349. Dan Huil says:

      It’s highly amusing to watch British nationalists bleeding life out of their own so-called precious united kingdom. As many have said timing will be crucial as to the moment when Scotland wields the neccessary knife, putting this miserable union out of its misery.

    350. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “@ Rock just get lost you. Lying Stirrer. Every post a lie.

      Have you ever visited EU countries. Or had blinkers on. When and what EU counties have you visited. You haven’t got a clue. Most of them are beautiful counties., extremely well run. Equal and happy. Much better than Westminster. Dumb feck.”

      What are you talking about Ken?

      “Most of them are beautiful counties., extremely well run. Equal and happy. Much better than Westminster.”

      I completely agree with that, have I ever posted anything to the contrary?

      Don’t you realise that your position on Catalonia is opposite to that of almost every other poster on this website?

    351. geeo says:

      Usual suspects talking usual repetitive shite.

      You can say 2+2=5 a million times, it will still be wrong.

      In fact, 5 BILLION people could say that
      2+2=5 a million times each, and guess what ?

      They would ALL still be wrong, every time they say it.

      Just sayin.

    352. yesindyref2 says:

      @rock, @Colin Alexander, @sensibledave

      ha ha ha ha ha

    353. Ken500 says:

      Scotland is still on the road to Independence. Dumb feck.

      The 50% representation was a fluke. It was the only time any political Party got 50% of the a vote in the UK. (Pro rata) Labour landslide victory after the 11WW was 45%. The highest in the UK. . Parties usually get around 37%. That is a landslide victory. Anyway the polling for the next GE showers the SNP will increase members. 10/12. It is 42 points ahead. At Holyrood. PR system. If it was FPTP there would be no opposition reps there

    354. William Wallace says:

      @ Nana

      Just to reiterate what Alex said @ 4:44pm

      The links you provide are of great benefit to all of us and have led me to lots of informative articles that I would never have found or read without you providing the links here.

      I would like to express my gratitude for the great job that you do here in that regard. Your efforts are very much appreciated. Thank You!!

    355. Rock says:

      Golfnut,

      “The permission Nicola sought was from the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum and to agree terms with westminster on a Section 30 order. Westminster can refuse to agree terms, but it does not prevent a referendum being held.”

      Do you believe Nicola will hold a referendum if Westminster refuses to give a section 30 order?

      If one is held, do you believe Westminster, the EU and the UN will respect the result?

    356. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “Scotland is still on the road to Independence. Dumb feck.”

      It sure is.

      The only problem is it still could be on the road to Independence after another 620 years.

      No need for bad language, Ken.

      We will soon know if a referendum is held before Brexit has been completed.

    357. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “The 50% representation was a fluke.”

      Sure, but wasn’t it the perfect moment to strike?

      Once in a 1000 years golden opportunity?

    358. manandboy says:

      http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-curious-tale-of-the-brexit-dog-that-didn-t-bark-
      “The British no-deal plan is well understood to be about pressurising the EU for a deal”

      Trust the Irish to offer something that makes at least some sense of the English ‘No Deal’ talk.
      Lacking Irish nous, the Mainland media are apparently taking it all too seriously. But then so are the Europeans. They think Brexit is no laughing matter and it’s easy to see their point of view.

      When it’s all over, and the UK have returned to the EU fold, the British Prime Minister will stand up and say ‘Did you really think we could be so insanely stupid as to leave the world’s biggest trading bloc?’

    359. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “It is 42 points ahead. At Holyrood. PR system. If it was FPTP there would be no opposition reps there”

      42 points ahead?

      Apart from Ken500 and the Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, is there anyone else posting here who is in favour of the ‘First past the post’ voting system?

      I am totally against it.

      No need for bad language, Ken.

      You can believe what you like, I can believe what I like.

      Although regarding the Greens, we are on the same wavelength.

    360. Petra says:

      Another night of anti-Independence supporters over-running the site to the point that they’ve resorted to talking to each other, lol. Best ignored.

      ……………….

      Nana thanks for continuing to post links throughout the day and I hope that you enjoy a WELL deserved rest tomorrow. I replied to your early posts, hours ago, but it still hasn’t appeared and of course I better not try posting again! However very frustrating to say the least and a total waste of time.

      Anyway I just wanted to say that one of your latest posts highlights a situation that is WAY beyond the pale. It would seem that we have a 14 year old Scottish born girl, abandoned by her mother aged 2, brought up by her Scottish father (died when she was 12) and her grandparents, who is being hounded by the Home Office.

      This kind of carry-on is absolutely disgusting. That young ‘Scottish’ girl has clearly suffered far too much in her young life already, must worry that she’ll lose her grandparents next and of course elderly people shouldn’t have to put up with this either.

      They won’t issue a passport and as Angus MacNeil says she’s basically ‘stateless’, FGS!

      C’mon folks get moving and double your efforts to get us out of this, ASAP.

      https://angusmacneilsnp.com/2017/10/12/callous-home-office-leaves-island-schoolgirl-stateless-they-are-unable-to-confirm-that-islander-is-a-british-citizen-isles-mp-raises-issue-at-westminster/

    361. Hamish100 says:

      Rock – read it in the guardian?

      Oh you don’t read newspapers and in particular pro independence leaning.

    362. Paula Rose says:

      Re the young lass – I would of thought the Scottish Government had a duty of care as she is a child and could therefore act in her best interests and basically tell the Home Office to get to…

    363. manandboy says:

      For those dashing to a Parliament of Clowns

      When it’s all over, and the UK have returned to the EU fold, the British Prime Minister will stand up and say ‘Did you really think we could be so insanely stupid as to leave the world’s biggest trading bloc?’ (aside: just because a few folk from up North don’t like the EU)

    364. Ken500 says:

      Who cares cares only care about looking at the facts. Check the numbers. The legality of the actions of the Catalonia politicans. Puidgdemonl cant’t look a camera in the eye.He knows what he has done.He started to speak abut talking to others. After totally ignoring their views for years.Shifty doesn’t come out as open. He has lost the vote and does not have the numbers but is claiming 90% success on turnout od 30\40%. Just a nonsense.

      The banking crash in Spain happened in Catalonia and along the Costas. Spain had to bail them out with £Billions borrowed from the ECB. They are having to pay it back. It did not affect Catalonia so much as the wealthier part of Spain.They were protected to a degree It was the poorer parts of rural Spain that took the most hit.they did not cause the crisis.Spain is Federal so there is an adjustment made to protect the poorest. Puidgdemonl does not want to accept any part of any share of the debt they created, They are the wealthiest (aka London) who refuse to pay any share. £4Billion. The States have to pay a proportion to the Federal Gov. The Supreme Court came to the conclusion they did not have to pay it.

      It is reported puidgdemonl owns the National TV propaganda. That would not happen in any other other free and fair democracy in the world. Although the Spainish do not watch much. TV. (10%?). They mainly watch football and sports. Spanish TV is not very good. Plenty other activities,good Weather and good food food etc. A healthy lifestyle.

      Come on Rock what EU/European counties have you visited, when?

    365. Petra says:

      @ Paula Rose says at 7:33 pm …. ”Re the young lass – I would of thought the Scottish Government had a duty of care as she is a child and could therefore act in her best interests and basically tell the Home Office to get to… ”

      I don’t know how that works anymore Paula. I get more and more confused as the days go on and maybe that’s exactly what they want. What’s devolved / what’s reserved!? Who’s responsible for what?

      Angus MacNeil is clearly trying to help her however it may be that other agencies will have to get involved and / or for a petition to be set up. Whatever the case this so-called Union stinks to bl**dy high heaven. The absolute misery being doled out by Westminster right across the UK just beggar’s belief.

    366. Colin Alexander says:

      @Rock You say the Salmond / Cameron deal set a precedent.

      Clearly that would not be a rule set in stone if NS fcopies Salmond’s Indyref but the UK Govt does not follow Cameron’s lead and agree a S30.

      Anyway, surely they aren’t as stupid to make indyref deals with the UK Govt when the Yes campaing and all Scotland were scammed by The Vow / Smith Commission trick of a false promise of devo-max.

    367. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Ah well; I see it’s reached that time of evening when the usual disruptive typing fingers make their presence known.

      By the by…
      I watched a 27 minute documentary on the construction of the M74 this afternoon, downloaded from the usual site that has all those Scottish videos.

      What caught my eye was that one of the plant providing companies was called “Dick Hampton”. Both words are used as alternatives (in polite society) for the male member. Why did this remind me of one of our regular btl commenters?

    368. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Another night of anti-Independence supporters over-running the site to the point that they’ve resorted to talking to each other, lol. Best ignored.”

      Possibly, Petra, or it could be the Yoon Multiple-Personality hearing voices, responding and having a complete breakdown.

      You have to laugh along with Alex and Nana.

      Nana: hope you’re not going mad with the plastic tomorrow 😛

      Haste ye back.

    369. Nana says:

      @ William Wallace
      Thank you William, I’m glad you find the links worthwhile. Don’t tell anyone but I do miss quite a few myself! Luckily there are Wingers who find and the missing links.

      @ Petra
      Thanks Petra, not sure if there will be much ‘rest’ taking but sure hoping for some fun.

      @ Tinto Chiel Ssh with the mention of plastic, or I will never get himself out the door.

      Afore I go here’s a few more links. Thinking you’ll all be glad of the rest over the weekend, lol

      https://www.autonomyscotland.org/brexit-whats-at-stake-for-business/

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/stb-north-sea-taxes-oil-gas-industry/

      https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/10/watch-trade-expert-absolutely-demolishes-nigel-lawsons-dodgy-argument-for-no-deal-
      brexit/#more-67477

      No 10 has been forced to delay its flagship Brexit bill
      http://archive.is/p2qSu

    370. CameronB Brodie says:

      As far as I’m concerned, the situation is a bit fluid right now. There are lot’s of uncertainties that are outwith Scotland’s influence, at present. My instinct is that independence is the right choice and that it is very much in our reach. Clever strategy and good timing will still be required though, as well as a spirit of tolerance and open-mindedness.

      What’s the harm?
      Uncritical acceptance of claims.

      We are faced with many extraordinary claims every day from advertisers promoting dubious goods and services, to psychics claiming to talk to the dead. Once magical thinking has been adopted, we no longer need to question, scrutinise, or even think about whether or not a claim may be true, we just simply accept it at face value.

      Of course, many claims are false. Uncritically accepting claims leaves us susceptible to manipulation by those who wish to prey on us.

      http://www.critical-thinking.org.uk/critical-thinking/what-is-the-harm.php

    371. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “He has lost the vote and does not have the numbers but is claiming 90% success on turnout od 30\40%. Just a nonsense.”

      If there is no majority for independence, why do you think the fascist Spanish state used brute force to prevent people from voting?

      Why hasn’t it allowed a “legal” referendum to settle the matter for a “generation” as happened in Scotland?

      How can you claim the turnout was 30\40% when the whole world saw people being beaten up and everything done to prevent them from voting?

      Spain is afraid of an independence vote in Catalonia.

      Just like the UK is afraid of an independence vote in Scotland.

      Admit it or not, the situation in Scotland is no different to that of Catalonia in the eyes of the EU and the UN.

      Anyone who wants independence is termed “separatists”.

      All those fighting for independence of the colonies were termed “terrorists”.

      Given your superior knowledge of European matters, what do you think of the “separatists” in Flanders?

    372. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “Another night of anti-Independence supporters over-running the site to the point that they’ve resorted to talking to each other, lol. Best ignored.”

      Someone has to make an effort to prevent the complete takeover of this site by the likes of yourself and Robert Peffers and your sycophants.

      Don’t forget you took a “vow” not to respond to my posts.

      And don’t forget, if a long post of yours doesn’t appear, don’t post it a million times.

      If you want to make fun of other posters, look forward to other posters making fun of you.

      Or start your own blog.

    373. Petra says:

      @ Tinto Chiel says at 7:58 pm …..“Another night of anti-Independence supporters over-running the site to the point that they’ve resorted to talking to each other, lol. Best ignored.”

      ”Possibly, Petra, or it could be the Yoon Multiple-Personality hearing voices, responding and having a complete breakdown.”

      Maybe we should be feeling sorry for ‘them’, TC?

      Dissociative identity disorder (previously known as multiple personality disorder) is thought to be a complex psychological condition that is likely caused by many factors, including severe trauma during early childhood (usually extreme, repetitive physical, sexual, or emotional abuse).

      http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder#1

    374. Ken500 says:

      @ Petra

      Try posting shorter text. Two posts instead of one. That is more likely to get through the automatic censors. Longer texts are more likely to contain more words the automatic censor rejects. I know I do it. Get carried away. All the time. Sometimes websites are better with long posts. It doesn’t mean the box? or something gets fuller. Although Rev Stu’s set up seems to be damage proof. Limitation. for hacks etc. That is why is is so successful. Doesn’t go down. .

      Smaller posts are also more likely to be read by people who are busy or in a hurray. Although your posts are usually really good. Get right down to the nitty gritty.

      A post last night did not post it was a bit of a malicious one to Rock. Sometimes it is better to hold it in a bit To get a Post through the automatic censor. It is just he is so annoying. Really getting fed up of him. He just posts nonsense without doing any simple research. Really getting a hugely annoyed about the whole situation. EU Catalonia. It is better to wait to win An Indepedence Ref, Two years will pass no bother.

      Might take a bit of a break. I did for a while and just got on with routine things.. Or post less but when people just claim absolute lies. It is good to give a reply.

      Took a break for a while and just got on with routine things. When a lot of people post which is good the thread can become a bit unwieldy. The small writing gets to the eyes a bit. strained. Someone has large writing on their phone. On a devise it seems to make the screen jump. And jump back again.

    375. Ken500 says:

      Feck off Rock.

      Catalonia, Spain and the Scottish Independence movement is totally different. Everything the SNP do has a massive majority. They get a huge mandate. A phenomenal.

      Go on the internet and see the turnout in Catalonia for years. There is about a third of support,on the turnout, on average. It is quite worrying. The majority do not seem to be interested in Independence. They want change but they seem to want to be part of Spain. Or they are not bothered. That’s all right.

      Instead of regurgitating your nonsense. . Why not go into the internet and do a bit of reasearch. Instead of just reguritating stuff that is not true.

      Which EU, European countries have you visited?

      You keep on going about the violence . That is the way some Spanih police carry on all the time. It is better to avoid them. Especially drunk Brits. That does not make it right.Maybe it will bring changes. The Spanish Police often just ignore complaints. Some crime they are bogged down in. The UK Police kettle and attack people. Leave them for hours desperate for the toilet, hungry and thirsty. Young folk. Batter them about. For the numbers the violence was quite isolated. 2 Million people. 800 incidents.

    376. Tinto Chiel says:

      Petra, usually I’m “some infinitely gentle/Infinitely suffering thing” but even I am grinding my teeth just now 😛 .

      As for yourself, please keep on trucking…

    377. Ken500 says:

      In the eyes of EU and UN they do not consider Catalonia and Scotland the same. The EU and the UN principles helped bring Scotland Devolution. Do you think the EU do not know exactly what is happening in Spain/Catalonia. They had to bail them out with £Billions of EU money from the ECB. They are in the Eurozone.The EU has to guarantee their debt. Both Spain and Catalonia, They know where the housing fraud happened on the Costas, specially Catalonia. They have to guarantee the debt until it is paid up.The EU know exactly what is happening in the UK and UN.

      The UK is in debt. . The US could go over a cliff. UK the higher gap between rich and poor, In the world, The biggest bail out in history. Msssive debt.

    378. K1 says:

      I’m doon tae gums Tinto…

      *sucks fish and chips through straw*

      😉

    379. Tinto Chiel says:

      Do you want a large malt with that, K1? Helps with the digestion.

      Getting into Cactus and WW territory now, but who can blame us?

      😉

    380. yesindyref2 says:

      The problem with Rock basically is when it is volcanic and erupts into the atmostphere. As well as emitting foul-smelling gases such as sulphur dioxode and hydrogen sulphide – stink bomb gas, it gets steaming and pollutes the atmostphere, and can of course cloud the vision and cause global warming. Gas masks can help.

    381. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Just returning after a while, and a lot of scrolling-past of the usual suspects to have to do again. =sigh=

      Thanks once again nana for many interesting links. Have a pleasant weekend!

      Interesting to discover from C4 news tonight, some of which I caught, that apparently it’s not Barnier but the EC (national leaders), not least Merkel, who are most adamant that the current negotiating structure be respected. So much for the belief of the English Brexiteers that the Germans would step in after their elections and insist on a deal over the heads of everyone else.

      German MEP Elmer Brok was one of those interviewed (always a treat), and he remarked wryly that the Germans will get the blame whatever happens. He also punctured the evident lingering exceptionalism of the C4 bod by saying quite directly that the EU didn’t ask for any of this, and its business is to look after the stability of the internal market, not the departing UK.

      Yes, the iron fist inside the velvet glove is showing. It’s an eerie repeat of Suez, this time with the EU humbling the moth-eaten imperial lion instead of the Yanks.

      This ain’t gonna end well. For the UK, that is. Best be gone from it, soonest.

    382. Petra says:

      @ Ken at 8:32pm …. “Try posting shorter text…….”

      Thanks for taking the time to ‘help me out’, Ken.

      I can’t begin to tell you how frustrating it is to spend time, which is in short supply, putting something together to find that it doesn’t appear on here. Part of the problem for me is that I had (know better now) little idea of what goes on behind the scenes. My long posts usually get through, it’s those that contain links or words that are deemed to be unacceptable that I seem to have problems with even if it’s say a repost of Nana’s links … which I still can’t figure out. Anyway I’ve started to break the ‘link’ posts up and check for any ‘suspect’ terms beforehand. I blame ‘astrology’ for it, lol, as with an Aries sun, Gemini moon and Leo Ascendant I was never going to be short winded as they say, lol.

      ……………….

      @ Tinto Chiel at 8:58pm …….. “Keep on trucking.”

      There’s nothing else for it TC. I’ll be spending every spare minute I get, and until I take my last breath, fighting for Scotland to become independent, on here and elsewhere. Some wee ‘chippy’ ain’t going to deter me. It also looks as though, with the number of posts on display, desperation is setting in which is a good sign.

    383. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Petra –

      Keep on keepin’ on an aw that…

      You have a lovely sense of humour which permeates your contributions, even when you’re annoyed.

      More power to ye.

      😉

    384. Tinto Chiel says:

      Petra: amen to that.

      Not sure about me, but I am convinced my two heiresses (!) will have a Scottish passport.

      Fair cheers me up, that.

    385. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      12 October, 2017 at 5:41 pm
      @Breeks says: 12 October, 2017 at 3:20 pm

      Have you some form of reading difficulty, Breeks?

      Nope.

      From a Holyrood Committee Meeting with Michel Barnier, 11th September 2017:-

      “He [Ross Greer] asked Mr Barnier if he was aware that the UK was offering positions outside its own competence and what was his view of that? Mr Barnier told the Committee that he was extremely interested in this debate, but that he could not comment on internal constitutional matters…” My emphasis.

      “Mr Barnier told the Committee that he received them with pleasure and that his door was open to them. He said that he had also received Scotland’s First Minister and the Welsh First Minister as well as other actors, but that he negotiated only with the UK Government”. (Ouch).

      In other words, Michel Barnier is extremely interested in the monkey, but unfortunately obliged to negotiate with the organ grinder.

      Brexit negotiations are currently respecting Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, because that is the internationally recognised sovereignty of the UK. If we want Scotland to secure a different conclusion to Brexit negotiations than the blanket UK conclusion, then I would urge you Mr Peffers not to educate me, but to educate Michel Barnier about the error of his ways.

      The distinction of Kingdoms and sovereignties is fascinating, and I am happy to accept legitimate, but it seems the world outside Scotland, does not recognise Scotland’s sovereignty as something distinct from UK sovereignty. Because the awkward truth for us is Michel Barnier is not in error, he is merely observing the accepted convention and cannot do anything else.

      My whole OCD all these months about sovereignty reflects what I see as an increasingly urgent need for Scottish sovereignty to be making its presence felt BEFORE the Brexit catastrophe is upon us.

      Unless Scotland can present Europe with a conventional sovereign interface of our own, the very technical existence of Scotland is going to remain an “internal constitutional matter” for the UK to resolve, and the EU cannot subdivide the UK on our behalf and deal with the components individually.

      Let us all heave a huge sigh of relief that we have a national sovereignty that is legitimate, legal, and robust, BUT, unless it is recognised, and recognised soon, Scotland will nevertheless be judged by the United Kingdom’s unitary Constitution, in precisely the same way as the “stateless” Catalonians are denied sovereign autonomy and remain fenced in and governed by the Spanish constitution.

      Since Scotland is not yet Independent, and the UK exists to awkwardly cloud the issue of sovereignty, we must think laterally, be creative, and find a break in the conventions at play here, and somehow get the EU able to engage with Scotland on some kind of probationary sovereign basis appropriate to our country-in-waiting status.

      Increasingly, whenever I think of our precious sovereignty, I see it as that impotent and forlorn wee piece of paper Neville Chamberlain waved declaring peace in our time. We all think it means something tremendous, but history is about to teach us a cruel and painful lesson.

    386. Cactus says:

      A hey and morning all ~

      Going back to the game I was talkin’ about the other night…

      It’s not the ECG key.. it’s the ACG Key!

      And it’s ‘Atic Atak’:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJrS9WYn3X8

      Anyone know what ACG is short for?

      Used to play it for hours on end 🙂

      SNP good.

    387. Golfnut says:

      @rock
      There you go again with this permission malarkey. A section 30 order is about terms under which a referendum will held. It is certainly not about permission, and I would remind you that the section 30 order for Indy 14 was called the Edinburgh Agreement.
      Brexit was not a binding referendum, but has still been enacted because of the will of the people.

    388. sensibledave says:

      … I have been reminded of the mindset of some of the commenters here on WIngs.

      Definitions:

      1. Yoon:

      A) Any voter in Scotland that didn’t vote Yes in the Scottish Independence referendum.

      B) Also everyone else in the whole of the UK – irrespective and regardless of whether they have ever been asked to express their opinion

      2. BritNat

      A) Any voter in Scotland that didn’t vote Yes in the Scottish Independence referendum.

      B) Also everyone else in the whole of the UK – irrespective and regardless of whether they have ever been asked to express their opinion.

      3.Unionist

      A) Any voter in Scotland that didn’t vote Yes in the Scottish Independence referendum.

      B) Also everyone else in the whole of the UK – irrespective and regardless of whether they have ever been asked to express their opinion.

      4. Fascists:

      Anyone that doesn’t vote for the SNP – irrespective of where they live or whether they have ever been asked their opinion on the subject of Sottish Independence.

      I’d forgotten just how far some people are divorced from reality.

    389. Socrates MacSporran says:

      sensibledave @9.25am

      Pure Jackie Baillie, you’ve finally lost it Son.

    390. Liz g says:

      Socrates Mac Sporran @ 9.55
      I don’t think he had it in the first place!

    391. sensibledave says:

      Socrates & Liz G

      … well perhaps you can tell me where the definitions are wrong?

      No matter how many times I remind everyone that, unlike the folk in Scotland, I have never been asked to formally express an opinion on Scotish Independence. I am an ambivalent democrat on the subject. Whatever they majority of Scots want – I want them to have it. I am pro-indy as soon as the majority want Independence.

      I know this doesn’t’ fit with the tin-foil hat brigade here on Wings and they need to people to blame because the majority of Scots appear to not want Independence … far easier and lazier (and particularly stupid) to blame the English – rather than No voting SCots and the inability of the Yessers to persuade them otherwise.

      The contrast between the situation in Catalonia and Scotland is vast. Representative Westminster MPs, of all constituencies, across the whole of the UK, determined that there was enough of a groundswell of opinion to warrant a referendum, in Scotland only, thus fully supporting the concept of self-determination.

      Somehow, many on WIngs, manage to characterise that process in a way that presents the rest of the UK’s population as Yoons, Unionists and BritNats. Beats the hell out of me!

    392. Cactus says:

      3rd time lucky…

      The correct name for the game was ‘Atic Atac’.

      Now was the other one ‘Chuckie’ or ‘Chucky Egg’?

      SNP very good.

    393. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi sensibledave.

      Do you, by any chance, have a rib-tickling story, featuring your favourite spoon?

      (Asking for a cutlery-fixated lurker.)

    394. Rock says:

      Golfnut,

      “@rock
      There you go again with this permission malarkey. A section 30 order is about terms under which a referendum will held. It is certainly not about permission, and I would remind you that the section 30 order for Indy 14 was called the Edinburgh Agreement.
      Brexit was not a binding referendum, but has still been enacted because of the will of the people.”

      But why can’t you answer my simple questions:

      Do you believe Nicola will hold a referendum if Westminster refuses to give a section 30 order?

      If one is held, do you believe Westminster, the EU and the UN will respect the result?

    395. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes and Yes.

      Are you YES yet?

    396. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “Feck off Rock.”

      “Go on the internet and see the turnout in Catalonia for years.”

      Which coloured glasses are you wearing Ken? Or which planet are you living on?

      The whole world apart from you saw that the fascist Spanish state used brute force to prevent people from voting and seized ballot papers.

      Despite that they managed a 43% turnout.

      We will soon see what difference there is between Catalonia and Scotland in the eyes of the EU and UN when Nicola defies Saint Theresa and holds a referendum without Westminster’s permission.

      Actually we almost certainly won’t because I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa.

      Keep your foul language in store and use it if and when I have been proven wrong.

    397. Rock says:

      Rock,

      Do you believe Nicola will hold a referendum if Westminster refuses to give a section 30 order?

      If one is held, do you believe Westminster, the EU and the UN will respect the result?

      yesindyref2,

      “Yes and Yes.”

      You are on the record on this the 13th day of October 2017.

      Let us see who is proven right and who is proven wrong.

    398. yesindyref2 says:

      Are you YES yet?

    399. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “Are you YES yet?”

      What do you think?

      You don’t believe a word I say so and I have no wish to convince you of anything.

    400. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 02:21,

      I don’t know why the sovereignity principle has never been formally challenged within the UK context, but where it might finally come into play is after we win indyref2. At that point the EU will “see” our sovereignity.

      The fun thing would be if we achieved that before formal UK exit, because immediately at that point our negotiation with the EU would “fork” away from the UK, and the rUK would no longer be able to negotiate away all our resources. I just wish all those deluded fisherfolk would realise that crucial point.

      Which is precisely why the Tories are desperate to keep us in our box until they have done all their dirty deeds.

      And to think there are self-declared “supporters” of indy who are apparently very happy to let that happen! Stupid or something else entirely…?

    401. Cactus says:

      Independent Scotland very good.

      Independent Scotland excellent.

      iScotland.

    402. Graham King says:

      On the subject of speechmakers and the reception they are due,
      the letters, seen falling off the backdrop at around the time poor dear TM was handed her P45, which had spelled
      ‘BUILDING A COUNTRY THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE’
      may be re-arranged to spell
      ‘COUGH IF, UNBEKNOWNST, I DARE TO OVERLY TARRY’.



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