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Wings Over Scotland


The Whimper

Posted on June 13, 2018 by

Let there be no mistake about what just happened. Last night, Scottish devolution – an institution 111 years in the promising, just 19 years a reality – died. Iain Macwhirter summed it up concisely and accurately.

And it didn’t even go down fighting.

The UK government swept the Scottish Parliament aside contemptuously and casually. Not a single Scottish MP was allowed to speak during the 15 minutes which signed devolution’s death warrant, as Cabinet Office minister David Lidington, the member for Aylesbury, waffled away the entire alloted time for the “debate”.

And Scotland’s three Unionist parties lay down meekly and took it.

Labour abstained on the vote, which had no chance of defeating the government, but declined to even oppose it as a gesture, instead choosing to sulk because their own amendment had been declined. (The Speaker of the House pointed out that they could have amended the amendment which WAS voted on, but Labour preferred to pout.)

The Scottish Lib Dems, meanwhile, abstained in the name of, er, Wales.

And the man whose actual official literal job it is to defend the devolution settlement (and who had promised that he personally would amend the bill to stop this happening, then didn’t because he had better things to do like root around in his beard for snacks) said “Oh shut up Scotland, we were never going to listen anyway however much time we gave you”.

The Unionist parties, we must remember, weren’t opposing independence here. They were failing to defend the thing they’re supposed to be in favour of, the alternative to independence, the arrangement meant to show how much Scotland is cherished and valued by its partner in the UK.

But as Scotland’s politicians failed it, the media which holds them fearlessly to account rushed into the breach to speak up for their people.

The Daily Record, for example, felt that the most important things it needed to inform its readers about today were that a man who was paraplegic already might lose part of his (useless) leg after an accident, a woman’s breasts were too big and someone nobody had ever heard of had signed for “Rangers”.

The Scottish Daily Mail raged that some alleged “jihadis” were free to “roam” the UK – on the trifling grounds that none of them had been charged with any crime, let alone convicted – and that Prince Harry’s new bride had once given a magazine a glimpse of her underwear.

The Daily Telegraph’s only mention of Scotland was an attack on the SNP over drug deaths, but it did also pick up the Mail’s theme by reporting on an important “knicker rebellion” in Devon.

The “Scottish” Daily Express had nothing at all about Scotland on its front page, but found a corner for paparazzi shots of the estranged wife of Ant from Ant & Dec, for no particular reason that we’ve been able to ascertain.

Scotland’s biggest-selling paper did manage to cover the devolution story, though. We’ve highlighted its report here in case you didn’t manage to spot it at first.

The UK’s most august and serious paper of record, naturally, took the matter far more seriously, devoting more than twice the wordcount to the news. Again we’ve helpfully picked out the full 30 words for you.

The few small regional papers which made the power grab the main story all framed it in a UK context rather than a Scottish one, and as a partisan political matter of the SNP complaining, even though ALL the opposition parties in the Scottish Parliament except the Tories had voted to reject the bill by 93 votes to 30.

And BBC Radio Scotland’s flagship morning phone-in invited listeners to chat about – perhaps ironically – “the effects of bullying on your adult life”.

And that was that. When push came to shove, Scotland’s Unionist politicians and media crumpled like tissue paper and stood and watched the open destruction of the thing that every one of them has vowed endlessly to defend and strengthen.

Not a single, solitary one of them even voted against it symbolically, despite Labour and the Lib Dems’ own colleagues at Holyrood having opposed it just last month. Because at the end of the day, UK parties are UK parties and Scotland is at the very best an occasional sideshow to them, to be listened to only when it poses a threat.

Devolution has indisputably failed. At the end of the day – as we’ve always known but half the population has allowed themselves to be deceived about until now – power devolved has been proved to be power retained by London, to be wielded whenever it wants and regardless of what Scotland says, in the face of every “convention” and pledge to the contrary.

Scotland has only two options left now, and one of them is to die.

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    1. 13 06 18 12:56

      The Whimper | speymouth

    152 to “The Whimper”

    1. One_Scot says:

      Honestly believe there is nothing to be lost by Nicola Sturgeon announcing a date for #ScotRef.

      Lets face it, regardless of things becoming clearer regarding Brexit, Scotland is finished even as a wee pretend country if we don’t stand up and grow a pair.

    2. ayemachrihanish says:

      “Now is not the time”.

      Sorry, NOW IS the time.

      Therefore, please Scotland’s FM, on behalf of the people of Scotland explain what you intend to do.

    3. Marc Rich says:

      This is the Union. This is what it means. We are subjugated junior partners. Non-entities. Just hand over the oil and shut your mouth!
      You are worthless, your devolution is hollow fiction.

      Fit ye gaan ti dee aboot it?!

      Lie down and die Scotland. Like the miserable worthless futile spineless dog you know you are.

      What’s that? You’ve started to believe in yourself. Don’t make me laugh.

      Hey…give that back…that’s ours!

      Wait, what are you doing…. stop that! Get back in your box! How dare you make a success of yourself.

      This is frightfully embarrassing.

      Gordon? Ross? Wullie? Ruth? ….Tony…?

      *gunshot*

    4. Robert says:

      I’ll take the first (and unstated) option

    5. Vestas says:

      Couldn’t agree more but ScotGov isn’t going to push the indyref2 button anytime soon, they’re all far too comfortably situated. Brown being elected as deputy leader of the SNP proved that.

      Wait until next March & its game over for any sort of peaceful independence outcome IMHO.

      For those of you who still believe that playing by the rules will work – well Westminster changed the rules last night. They’ll do so again & nobody, not the EU, CoE or the UN will stop them from doing so. Catalonia & Crimea show us that!

    6. Andrew Davidson says:

      On your last paragraph, to be fair Ian Liddell-Grainger did advise on the dying option, although he went with suicide being his preferred choice for Scotland.

    7. Archbishop of Dork says:

      The UK parties will be saying thank God for the World Cup starting. For politicians you don’t get many better distractions.

      But World Cup Finals only last a month. Labour and the Lib Dems will have to answer to the Scottish people for their abdication of devo support.

    8. Alison Rollo says:

      I just can find no words for this!! Just anger and sadness.

    9. Bill Hume says:

      Now’s the day and now’s the hour.
      Bannockburn 2018.
      Be there or just give up.

    10. defo says:

      And the other option ? 🙂

      Is it possible that the contempt we witness, is the result of our opponents realizing, deep down, that we are inevitably offski, and therefore the pretense of equality is slipping away ?
      R4 doesn’t even attempt to be a national news/sport/weather broadcaster anymore. It’s R Blightey now.

    11. Jack Murphy says:

      The Press in Scotland is hostile. End of.

      As for the Labour Party in Scotland–

    12. Artyhetty says:

      According to a Tory MP, yesterday, Scotland could commit ‘suicide’.

      Just no words to say on this at the moment. Well maybe a few. The so called UK is a rabid regime, democracy is dead.

      Just hope the frackers frack on top of all those Labour, Tory and Lib Dem MP’s who voted against their own country yesterday. Utterly disgusting, self serving, lying troughers.

      Let’s hope Karma is a thing, because anyone voting against their own country as these gits did yesterday, deserve to end up on the scrapheap. That’s what they want for Scotland’s democracy, and Scotland’s people. May they all rot in hell.

    13. S.Perspective says:

      With media failure, the only thing to do now is to take it to the streets and doorsteps. For the Scottish Government, Indy 2 is no longer a question of choice, it‘s a question of duty; they don‘t just have a mandate, they have an obligation.

    14. S.Perspective says:

      With media failure, the only thing to do now is to take it to the streets and doorsteps. For the Scottish Government, Indy 2 is no longer a question of choice, it‘s a question of duty; they don‘t just have a mandate, they have an obligation.

    15. Dan Huil says:

      FFS fight for Scotland!

    16. Black Joan says:

      Some arch trolling there from The Scotsman.

      Oh look, a literal front-page squirrel, and what should be a huge headline re Holyrood: AT RISK OF EXTINCTION.

    17. Macart says:

      They call themselves the media. Not so you’d notice really and not the name for them I’m thinking of currently.

      As for the parties of devolution? Again. Not so you’d notice. The Tories tbf never wanted or believed in devolution. Equally, they never wanted a Scottish parliament and don’t believe Scotland’s population fit to govern themselves. So what’s Labour and the Libdems excuse for failing to represent the people of Scotland and protect their parliament and devolution settlement?

      Signatories to the Claim of Right 1989.

      Stand for something or lie down for anything.

    18. Ken500 says:

      Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Simple really. Yet some people still do not get the message. Warned time and time again. Yet people do not do it. 1/2 million did not vote a year ago. GE. To endorse the SNP message. Still on and on they go criticising.

      How anyone thinks to call an IndyRef in the middle of the Brexit mess to add to the confusion. Without enough endorsed support. Or could lose again?

      The Tories will not last another seven years. Lucky to last till October. The complete and utter shambles. What a mess. Labour are useless.

      In all honesty imagine a Scottish LibDem MP voting for what Wales wants. The LibDems are supposed to support EU membership. Wales voted Brexit. What planet are these people on? Complete hypocrites.

    19. Arbroath1320 says:

      For quite some time now the anger of the people of Scotland against Westminster and the Tory government has been simmering away in a pressure cooker quite happily.

      The disgusting disrespectful disdainful behaviour of the unionist parties in the House of Commons yesterday has just turned the heat right up on the pressure cooker now, in my view.

      Where once it was safe to leave the pressure cooker to bubble away quite happily on its own now is no longer the case. The pressure cooker of anger from the people of Scotland has reached the point now where if nothing is done then grab your steel helmet folks … there’s gonna be one hell of an explosion!

    20. Ken500 says:

      The Scotsman is facing extinction. Why anyone reads that nonsense is a mystery. The newsagent hates Nicola. Don’t go there.

    21. Luigi says:

      The only way to get the BritNat media’s attention is to be bold and grab them by the curlies. Be outrageous and spit in the face of WM. Pull out the MPs from WM and tell the world why you are doing so.

      Playing fair in this dirty game does not guarantee success.

      If the BritNat media continue to ignore us, and refuse to accept that there is a constitutional crisis underway, then let’s create and even bigger one.

      I am really fed up being treated as an ignorant, fitba-mad squirrel watcher who cares nothing for politics.

    22. Mike says:

      Nationalist neighbour: That’s it I’m calling the Police.

      Police: So another black eye then Mrs Uncle Tam.

      Mrs Uncle Tam: Aye I know what it looks like but he said he loves me still.

      Police: That’s 2 black eyes nae teeth and a nose as flat as a billiard table do you want to make an official complaint or no?

      Mrs Uncle Tam: No the now. He’s taken ma wages for ma ain good and am too wee too poor and too stupit tae leave the hoose.
      But A promise ye this if he does it again I will tell him am going tae abstain on leaving him again. That’ll calm him doon.

    23. Mik Johnstone says:

      Absolute fury here with the contempt shown to Scotland by Westminster …. I will fight for our Rights make no mistake, but timing is crucial i have calmed down slightly after watching this as it does make a lot of sense ….

      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/videos/2128648170497831/?hc_ref=ARTukqUHUdeod79Wz_dEyZUiGfSFcY0H0c2co5IeO3YtKZO-P45R3djZyk4j_AfpkuA&fref=nf

    24. Movy says:

      Why is Jo Swinson supporting Wales over Scotland? Is she not the MP for a Scottish constituency? Why is she not supporting the MSPs in her own party? Why is she still in a job? Along, of course, with the others, including our esteemed Secretary of State for Scotland, whose job is to ‘protect and promote the devolution settlement? Answers on the back of a postcard please.

    25. Archbishop of Dork says:

      Westminster. The BBC. The City of London. The UK political parties. The London based MSM. All corrupt institutions. All anti-Scotland.

    26. Cuilean says:

      Ian (Suicide) Liddell-Grainger is a great great great great whatever grandson of Queen Victoria.

      Why am I not surprised?

      This is just the start. The Barnett Formula will go; as Holyrood’s jurisdiction is carved out and returned to Westminster. No more will the SNP have any ability to shield Scotland from Tory rules.

      What will be the point of Holyrood? Just a big expense we can’t afford.

      And all the Yoons will chant, mantrawise is: This is what you voted for in 2014; or as the lovely Ian might say:

      “Piss off & die Jockland. We own you!”

    27. Movy says:

      I posted this earlier on the Guardian. “The contempt shown by Westminster to Scotland and its representatives was tangible yesterday. The Scottish Government pulled out all stops to try and reach agreement with Westminster over the devolved powers; their reward filibustering by David Lidington and weasel words from the man whose job is ‘to protect and promote the devolution settlement’ – one David Mundell. Shame on Mundell; shame on Lidington; shame on that irrelevant Tory who supports (with the apparent conivance and agreement of the Speaker) suicide; shame on Westminster. The sooner the ‘precious, precious Union’ is dissolved and put out of its misery, the better.” I add to that, that, as the Rev has shown, the conivance of the Unionists at Westminster (against in some instances their MSPs) and the collusion of the Scottish MSM has reached new levels of contempt. How many of them voted for devolution in 1999 -yet they’re now happy to see that agreement watered down significantly. They truly now are beneath contempt.

    28. AuldReekieJim says:

      I just posted this on the previous thread

      AuldReekieJim says:
      13 June, 2018 at 12:21 pm
      Scottish sovereignty is at the very heart of the situation and circumstances, where we are at this moment.

      The problem, as I see it, is that not enough Scots know that sovereignty belongs to the people of Scotland. And has done since 1320.

      So, why don’t we help them with that.

      We petition everyone in Scotland, door to door. We read a statement explaining Scots sovereignty and then ask them to sign two petitions. One is to be delivered to Hollyrood, the other to 10 Downing Street.

      Everyone living in Scotland should be asked to participate, including 16 and 17 year olds.

      The idea is to reaffirm Scottish sovereignty in the minds of all of our people.

      We have, in the Yes movement, the numbers to achieve this in a relatively short time. Plus the fact that many are itching to do something.

      Just an idea, that might have seemed better in my head.

      Jim

    29. Terry says:

      Hurrah! The SNP have done it. Walked out
      Scottish Labour and Lib Dem’s. Join them!!

    30. Breastplate says:

      Well done the SNP for bringing attention to this clusterfuck in the HoC.

    31. admiral says:

      Movy says:
      13 June, 2018 at 12:23 pm
      Why is Jo Swinson supporting Wales over Scotland? Is she not the MP for a Scottish constituency? Why is she not supporting the MSPs in her own party? Why is she still in a job? Along, of course, with the others, including our esteemed Secretary of State for Scotland, whose job is to ‘protect and promote the devolution settlement? Answers on the back of a postcard please.

      Why have the LDs not withdrawn the whip from her and sacked her from the party?

    32. maureen says:

      SNP MPs all walked out of the HOC!

    33. Macart says:

      BREAKING!

      SNP MPs walk out of chamber PMQs.

    34. maureen says:

      The speaker suspended Ian Blackford for the rest of the day because he refused to sit down and they all got up and left with him. What a sight, my hands are sore from clapping

    35. Bob Mack says:

      Well done SNP. Long overdue. Create havoc and disobey their trivial rules

    36. Macart says:

      Just refreshed page.

      Just beaten to the wossiname. 🙂

    37. Truth says:

      Right about now is when the Council of Europe should be covering our back in defiance at this assault on democracy.

      Yeah, I know. We’re on our own. I won’t forget that when we have our referendum on EU membership as an independent Scotland.

    38. Martin says:

      This farce would turn soft No voterz. I’m certain of it. But… How would they ever know about it. Anyone surprised by the media silence really knows nothing about control.

    39. HandandShrimp says:

      Mail really is a salacious rag isn’t it? It is the porn of choice for the net curtain twitchers.

    40. Smallaxe says:

      “By oppression’s woes and pains!
      By your sons in servile chains!
      We will drain our dearest veins,
      But they shall be free!”
      Robert Burns (Scots! wha hae)

      See you all at Bannockburn.

    41. Big Del says:

      Slightly O/T sorry.. BUT

      Who watched that then??? Have we just witnessed the end of this hell Yoonyin on TV.

      Bercow the prick lost it there and Blackford and his troops walked oot…..

      It’s coming……

    42. Desimond says:

      Holyrood is dead, one way or another, in its present form, its a dead husk.

      Interesting post on Twitter today from @MichelleGr4h4m highlighting importance of timing for when Scots Govt make their stand to ensure we dont get defeated in courts which is where it will all be directed.

      The one positive out of this is we have only a binary choice, its Westminster or Not Westminster. We just have to convince enough people, including Union Party lapdogs that Westminster is no choice in reality.

      The day is coming, and coming rather fast.. but just not now.

    43. Sunshine says:

      If I remember right, Alex Salmond very famously disrupted a budget speech and was thrown out of the house of commons. Why o why did the S N P MPs not do that yesterday, after it became apparent that no time was being allotted and the power grab was a stitch up!
      Someone could have stood in front of the mace and refused to move until forcibly so. Once they had been thrown out, repeat with the next MP until no one was left. Thus delaying all the business and votes.
      Why don’t they do it today?
      They are not there to shrug and say oh well, we tried. Bloody disrupt the place at least. Didn’t do Alex Salmond any harm.

    44. Sinky says:

      Nowhere else in the democratic world would the press and national broadcaster ignore and silence the aspirations of at least 45% of the population.

      That’s what happens when control of newspapers and TV companies is held outside Scotland.

    45. JaMur says:

      That’s it.

      Come on tae fuck Scotland.

      Get on yer feet and fight.

    46. Bob Mack says:

      Not so much hilarity on the faces of the Tory front bench now.

      Fight them at every turn. Disobey every rule if need be. Sicken them.

    47. Sinky says:

      Sunshine says: at 12:42 pm

      The SNP just walked out of House of Commons

    48. Marie Clark says:

      Well, I’m the same as everyone else here, absolutely sick to the pit of my stomach. But, I’m not angry, a raging white hot heat inside at the moment, but for me that’s not how I am when I really get angry.

      To be honest, I’n not surprised at what has happened, I reckon that was always what they intended. Are they hoping to provoke Scotland into lashing out, is that the plan? Then send in the troops to subdue us all back into our boxes? Well sorry Westminster, I’m not getting back into a box anytime soon.

      I would expect that the SG would have been well prepared for last nights shenanigans, so surely they have a plan. I think that the SG need to address the Scottish people now in the face of all that’s happened. We need to be told out loud that devolution is dead, and our parliament now useless. Tell us what they intend to do about it in the immediate future.

      I know that the SG have difficulty getting any message across the bbc or msm,but, I think that they now need to be bold, or are we all just gonnae sit back on our backsides and just mump about what’s happened?

    49. Big Al says:

      The focus now has to be on what we do, as a people, to stand up to this.

      I think the SNP need to take some kind of radical unprecedented action – either:

      1) hold indyref2 regardless of UK Gov “permission” or consent (we should now be acting as an already inependent people who make our own decisions and take our own actions according to our own wishes and needs. If they don’t need our consent to adjust the mechanisms of governance, then we don’t need theirs, and they can stuff any legalities about “binding” referendums up their backsides. The devolution settlement was meant to be binding, and isn’t, so hey ho).

      2) SNP MPs might resign en masse from Westminster, given that there is no point in Scottish MPs being there, as yesterday has proven. That would then free up the SNP to concentrate all their resources, focus and firepower on dominating Holyrood and pushing the independence agenda from within our own stronghold.

      3) UDI. The fuck them absolutely option. Very tempting now and, if you ask me, perfectly legitimate. Unlikely to happen, however.

      Importantly, any of these options would do what the Scottish media fails to do – bring these events to EVERYONE’s attention and reveal to them what’s a stake here.

      Too many people in Scotland will, for a variety of reasons, be oblivious to the fact that they’ve just been insulted and scorned to such levels that no people of any country should ever have to take. Not to mention their freedoms and rights being treated with ridicule and contempt to an extent that is almost bizarre for its brazenness.

      We need a genuine game changer, a means by which the less involved are brought into the process of the change and advancement required to achieve indy.

      As for those 27% of Scottish Tory unionist dregs and their voters. We ignore them. There are not enough of them to prevent the efforts of the legions of committed yessers. It’s that remaining quarter/third of people in Scotland that need to be informed and persuaded and convinced of the options open to them outside of the UK’s floundering ship.

      Time for us to step up the pace.

    50. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Good on the team for walking out of that dump.

      Look forward to seeing you folk at Bannockburn.

    51. Alba 46 says:

      Assuming that there is a Scottish government in seven years there is no way on this earth that the powers being retained by westminster will be returned.

      With the beefed up Scottish office in Edinburgh its pretty clear that not only will these powers not be returned but our parliament will be further stripped of powers they currently hold.

      The long term plan by the torries for the Scottish parliament is NOT to dissolve the Scottish parliament but to neuter it to the extent that it is toothless and powerless. They know that if they dissolve the parliament there will be an almighty uproar therefor they being the torries will do the underhand and sleekit way and chip away until it is turned into no more than a talking shop or local council.

      Their plan is for Mundell to administer Scotland in a true colonial way from his mansion in Edinburgh

    52. Nana says:

      Today @theSNP MP’s have walked out of PMQ’s in protest at Scotland being disrespected by Westminster. Here’s why

      https://twitter.com/HannahB4LiviMP/status/1006864595112296448

    53. Andy Hay says:

      Game on!

      Let’s see how long you keep smiling you smug arseholes.

    54. gus1940 says:

      Will Wingers please complete the on-line survey in today’s Courier.

    55. Vestas says:

      @ Truth 12:39 pm :

      “Right about now is when the Council of Europe should be covering our back in defiance at this assault on democracy.

      Yeah, I know. We’re on our own. I won’t forget that when we have our referendum on EU membership as an independent Scotland.”

      Trollerama. The CoE has zip-fuck to do with the EU as you well know….

    56. Sunshine says:

      Thanks Sinky, just what was needed, as I was alluding to in my post.
      I feel better just watching that.
      Repeat again next week and escalate by the expelled person refusing to leave.
      Imagine they had all walked up to the mace today and refused to move. Don’t tell anyone, keep that for next week!

    57. Andy-B says:

      In time I’d imagine Westmister will slowly roll back devolution sucking the powers away, leaving Scots with no voice on how to govern themselves.

      This time around the snatching of powers was so easy that ultimately the power grabbing will continue. No other party (maybe Greens) will stand up and defend Holyrood. We’ll be drained back to the days of North Britain.

      But thankfully there is an escape hatch, in independence we must vote for it or suffer the consquences.

    58. James Mills says:

      Shut up and eat your cereal , Scotland ! Sounds familiar .

    59. Cubby says:

      Well done the snp at Westminster. They show us contempt. We have every right to show them contempt right back.

      Westminster is a dictatorship. There is no democracy in Scotland. Only a kid on democracy for the misinformed. We live in Scotland in a FAUX democracy.

      March at Bannockburn and all the other AUOB marches or live with Westminster dictatorship and all the shit coming our way- and I don’t just mean chlorinated chicken.

    60. John Bell says:

      That’s it. After 30 years as a politically neutral civil servant and now retired I will be applying to join the SNP as soon as possible. It’s time to get out of this disunited union

    61. GrahamB says:

      The ghost of Alex Salmond stalks the HoC!
      We should now be prepared to use their archaic rules to disrupt any future debates at will. They were well warned but chose to ignore our voice. Hell mend them!

    62. Robert Louis says:

      Well done SNP, at least now people will hear about what is being done. Do it again on each and every occasion, each week, until this aggressive colonial attitude of Westminster stops.

      From now on they disrupt and thwarts both Westminster and the Tory Government at each and every opportunity. Democracy is dead, the union is dead, devolution is dead.

      BBC news just showed Blackford getting ordered out, but did NOT mention why in any way. Good old blatantly biased paid liars at the BBC.

    63. Breeks says:

      Exciting times. History in the making.

      I feel like quoting Stalin’s Order 227 -…. it is time to finish retreating. Not one step back!

    64. Marie Clark says:

      My, my, I see that events have kicked off since my previous post.

      Action at last, yes. Mon Scotland, better to die on yer feet etc. Are we up for the fight, cause it’s going to be be one hell of a scrap. Unfortunately, can’t be at Bannockburn due to a prior commitment I just can’t get out of. I’ll be with you in spirit though. We had a wonderful turnout at Dumfries, so come on lads and lassies on yer feet and march.

    65. Robert Louis says:

      Disrupt, disrupt, disrupt. From now onwards at all opportunities. Make the house of commons suffer.

    66. Dr Jim says:

      Christmas has come early says the speaker after the walkout

      What or who was that in refernce to

    67. Dan Huil says:

      Well done SNP MPs. This is what was needed. Keep going!

    68. Confused says:

      Getting the SNP MPs to say “I spy strangers” 32 times a day, every day, might be a good jest.

      Eventually they change the rules – then you turn up wearing a suit of armour.

      The tories used the filibuster yesterday – they can’t expect any good graces after that.

      Westminster has many archaic rules – time for fun!

    69. Luigi says:

      Nana says:

      13 June, 2018 at 12:49 pm

      Today @theSNP MP’s have walked out of PMQ’s in protest at Scotland being disrespected by Westminster. Here’s why

      https://twitter.com/HannahB4LiviMP/status/1006864595112296448

      Braw. The more WM disruption, the more the media will find it difficult to ignore, and the more soft NOs will be asking “what the hell is going on?”. 🙂

    70. Nana says:

      Watch it Scotland and be proud of your SNP mps standing up for you

      https://news.sky.com/story/pmqs-live-theresa-may-and-jeremy-corbyn-spar-over-brexit-bill-11403420

    71. Breastplate says:

      Well done John Bell and welcome

    72. Luigi says:

      Stage 1: walk out

      Stage 2: wait for the BritNats and their media chums to do the heavy lifting for us “SNP BAD”.

      Stage 3: Public start (at last) to engage.

      I expect Rock will be on shift tonight trying desperately (yet again) to convince us it’s too little too late.

      Popcorn ready. 🙂

    73. Ken500 says:

      Mcwhirter haverings have made it happen. Doubt he voted SNP.

      FFS now Costa. SKy get a grip. Another total embarrassment.

    74. Arbroath1320 says:

      Congratulations to every single member of the SNP in Westminster today.

      Ian Blackford was expelled by the Speaker from the HoC for the rest of today’s proceedings during FMQ’s and consequently every single SNP MP followed Ian Blackford out of the chamber.

    75. Liam says:

      At last! Keep going! Don’t go back and issue a UDI!

    76. Robert Louis says:

      BBC lunchtime news just covered events, with NO interviews with anybody from the SNP. None. Their you have it if you ever doubted it, the BBC are a bunch of blatant paid liars, working to prop up the Westminster elite. No more, no less.

      And the BBC have the utter front to criticise RT.

    77. Dan Huil says:

      Well said, John Bell 12:54pm. I’m sure many others will feel the same way as you.

      The die is cast. No going back. Westminster britnats must not be allowed to treat Scotland with contempt any more.

      Again, well done SNP!

    78. maureen says:

      Dr Jim says:
      13 June, 2018 at 1:01 pm

      Christmas has come early says the speaker after the walkout

      What or who was that in refernce to

      As the SNP MPs were walking out, one of the tories said something like ” it reminds me of my dinner parties” I assume a jibe at the lack of people there. Usual nasty tory comments.
      Pretty sure there will be a clip on youtube at some point, so maybe get to hear it there.

    79. Robert Louis says:

      Angela Eagle of Labour just stood up right now to ask if it meant Ian blackford would also lose pay.

      In reply John Bercow, having a good laugh about it all. Ho ho, very funny for them all.

      Watch it live now, they are all having a good laugh.

    80. Movy says:

      Great news from Westminster. Well done our SNP MPs. Quick question. Why is Jo Swinson representing Wales? Any answers? Is she not representing a Scottish constituency???

    81. Sinky says:

      Before Unionist spin doctors phone newspapers editors

      So today we see clearly the procedures of the House can be simply ignored when it suits Mr Speaker. A call to sit in Private should have the vote put immediately. Speaker ignored this entirely.

      That’s why Ian Blackford refused to sit down.

      Also if the SNP hadn’t done this the 15 minute contempt etc would have been completely ignored by the BBC / MSM

      A great tactic when democracy doesn’t exist at Westminster

    82. Grouse Beater says:

      The motherfucker of all parliaments: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-mI8

    83. Nana says:

      @IanBlackford on why @theSNP is standing up for the democratic voice of the people of Scotland.

      “We have had changes to the devolution settlement without Scottish MPs being heard. That is a democratic outrage.”

      watch here
      https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1006871965972525062

    84. Naked Pedro says:

      Surely, it’s time for UDI now! How much more contempt must this country put up with?

    85. galamcennalath says:

      No matter what happens, or what is done by anyone, it will be treated in only two ways by the BritNat media – ignored or spun into a SNPBaaad story.

      This is exactly what just happened in the biggest constitutional changes for twenty years.

      And make no mistake, this situation will not change.

      A huge march or demo will be ignored or reported as a skirmish between two opposing views.

      Anything a pro Indy politician says will be ignored or met with cries of mischief making.

      The work of the Scottish Government and Parliament will be ignored or reported as non cooperation with the ‘true and rightful’ rulers in London.

      BritNats politicians and pundits will be given an easy ride, and their weasel words left unchallenged.

      There will be no balance.

      We should never expect anything else from the BritNat propaganda machine.

      So, we need to own the real face to face world, and we need to totally dominate social media. Those can only be done by sheer weight of activist numbers, and we have that!

    86. Cubby says:

      John Bell 12.54

      Well done John you know it makes sense.

      Just how much disrespect can anyone who claims to be Scottish and cares about Scotland accept and keep voting no. The comfort blanket of devolution has been well and truly ripped away.

      It is independence or shut up and do what your telt by Westminster. Westminster dictatorship. Mundell will go down in our history of ("Tractor" - Ed)s selling out to London.

      Westminster wanting to do a trade deal with that unstable Bampot Trump. This is the great idea. What a joke.

    87. grafter says:

      There’s no point in continuing with this farce of democracy. It’s time to remove our MP’s from Westminster PERMANENTLY and to dissolve the Union. Explain to the people of Scotland the reason for doing so loud and clear and begin a Referendum campaign with a target date before 2019.

    88. Ken500 says:

      More misreporting. They did not walk out. They were told to get out.

    89. orri says:

      Once upon a time the Secretary of State for Scotland had a “veto” on all legislation passed into Scots Law.

      When devolution came in that role was passed to the First Minister.

      This isn’t a case of Alex Salmond throwing down the mace.

      It’s the First Minister firstly “advising” the Queen of Scots to use Royal Prerogative in refusing Assent.

      If that advice is rejected then the second step is withholding the use of the Great Seal of Scotland in effect refusing consent in her personal capacity as it’s Keeper.

      As Westminster is so fond of formalities and tradition then surely they’ll respect those of Scotland?

      The reason Westminster shouldn’t normally legislate on devolved matters is precisely because the FM, in this case Sturgeon, has a de facto veto on all legislation passed in Scotland.

      It’s also why there’s various scatter brained attempts at fooling the SNP into stepping down to clear the way for a more compliant FM. Or Sturgeon doing so. Probably far fetched but imagine the shenanigans that might come in to play to place Davidson in that post.

    90. Luigi says:

      As the tories clapped and cheered like spoilt schoolboys (and girls), Ian Davidson had the cheek to accuse the SNP of childish behaviour.

      Gloves off now. Labour will have difficulty keeping up with this battle (normally they hold the tories’ jackets anyway). Keep it up, Labour, keep on abstaining till your BritNat heart’s content.

      I don’t think WM realises how seriously 45-50% of Scotland is already spoiling for a fight.

    91. Robert Louis says:

      Finally got to see Iain Blackford’s interview with Norman Smith (which was completely omitted from the lunchtime news), and I say to him, well done sir. Well, well done. Enough is enough.

      Disrupt, disrupt, disrupt. Let’s make sure Westminster starts to realise how wrong they are. No more co-operation, no more easy discussions, none. Invoke every single archaic parliamentary rule possible, bring that place to its knees.

      If you are angry about this, join the SNP http://www.snp.org/joinus.

      And get to the marches, next on on 23rd in Stirling. Let’s make it the biggest march yet, even bigger than glasgow. Let’s literally bring Stirling to a standstill.

    92. Luigi says:

      Luigi @ 1:26pm

      Ooops done it again Ian Murray not Davidson.

      (they are all the same anyway.

      Humble apologies. 🙁

    93. Breeks says:

      Seen it twice now referred to as a “stunt”.

      May finally getting the SNP to walk out of Westminster prove a much easier task than getting them to walk back in again…. ever.

    94. Jack Murphy says:

      During the SNP MPs Walkout from the Commons,Scotland’s illustrious Secretary of State David Mundell just sat and mockingly,sneeringly jeered.

      The last Secretary of State for Scotland !

    95. Welsh Sion says:

      This for smallaxe @ 12:41 pm

      15. (of 20.)

      Scots Wha Hae – Reprise

      Scots, wha hae wi’ Salmond bled,
      Scots, wham Sturgeon aften led,
      Welcome tae yer gory bed
      Or tae destiny.

      Now’s the day, an’ now’s the hour:
      Seize oor chance a’ last fir power.
      See the fearties start tae cower.
      Scotland will be free!

      Wha will be a low appeaser?
      Wha will bow tae Lunnon’s Th’resa?
      Wha sae base as be a greaser?
      Let him turn an’ flee.

      Wha fir Scotland’s Pride an’ Aw’
      Freedom’s sword will strongly draw?
      Bondsman stand or Freeman fa’:
      Let him follow me.

      By th’ oppressive woes and pains,
      Of oor sons in servile chains,
      We will drain oor dearest veins
      But we shall be free!

      Lay Westminster oh so low.
      Traitors fall – like every foe.
      Liberty’s oors wi’ every blow!
      Let us vote fir SNP!
      ______

      [With acknowledgements]

      Songs for the New Politics
      2013-2018

    96. Ottomanboi says:

      I have always been of the opinion that Scots will have to fight even for the very survival of their country.
      England ie the London establishment controllers want no political ‘dark corners’. Scotland’s ethno-cultural and political claims are dismissed as local, primitive tribalism unsuited to Anglia’s new rôle in the post-EU privateering, devil take the hindmost, community of capitalist buccaneers.
      Devolution will as a consequence of the new dispensation have to go.
      If we value our integrity as a nation independence, however attained, is the only rational choice.
      Legalism is over. SNP is now in a bare knuckle fight.
      They have walked out of Westminster. Don’t bother returning.

    97. Alastair says:

      The Establishment just went to the chamber balcony and pissed all over the SNP MP’s.

    98. Donald Bruce says:

      Just listened to radio 4 discussing the walk out. The propaganda is that it was a stunt by SNP and they are not interested in improving Scotland. What I found disgusting was Scottish Tory MPs shouting by,by as the walk out took place. Why are they agreeing to the laws of Scotland being handed to England

    99. Breastplate says:

      Ken500, Mr Blackford was told to leave, the rest, quite rightly in my opinion, joined him.

    100. Davo says:

      Sadly, this is what happens when a country votes to be dependent.

    101. John Watson says:

      Looking about me (I’m somewhere in Moray) my guess is that this Scotland will lie down and die. Too many gammons in the body politic. Never felt more deflated.

    102. starlaw says:

      During the Irish emancipation debates, new words crept into the English language, like ‘Fillibuster’ I wonder if any new words will come from the Scottish political scene eg. ‘doing a mundell’ could be used to describe a shirker.

    103. msean says:

      Well done,pointless being there. Yesterday was like watching a dictatorship in action,with a parliament being used as a disguise.

    104. cubby says:

      Just watched BBC Reporting Scotlands coverage of the so called “stunt”. This is a bloody disgusting propaganda station. Made out it was some fall out between blackford and the speaker. Then as Blackford was speaking trying to explain it was about devolution and the Tories breaking the Scotland act they cut off the interview as he was speaking. This programme has no right to broadcast in Scotland. Disgusting disgusting anti Scottish programme.

      They spent more time on the Word cup and I actually lost count of the number of times they said Scotland of course did not qualify. Then Scotland did not qualify again. Then Scotland has not qualified for years. Then Scotland has not qualified for a number of tournaments. Yeh we get the message Scotland is rubbish.
      What other country has to put up with a broadcaster telling its own citizens they are rubbish all the time and misrepresenting their politics.

      We need more demos outside Propaganda Quay. They are a disgrace and should be chased out of Scotland. Anyone who works for them should be ashamed.

    105. Gary says:

      Outrage to this will be nil as people will not get to hear about it. Because, as above, coverage is miniscule. They can ALL claim to have covered it although without any detail or explaining the importance to democracy.

      When you suppress information and debate you are oppressing democracy and the people with it. This IS oppression.

      Holyrood will NOT be shut down, it WILL be sidelined, made unimportant and become essentially a larger version of the old Regional Councils.

      Despite nearly half the voting population wanting independence, Westminster is moving in the OPPOSITE direction to remove powers and stymie debate on it. Not only by having only 15 mins to discuss it, but by having that 15 mins filibustered by an MP who has nothing to do with it.

      In a democracy this would cause outrage…

    106. Luigi says:

      Was it a stunt?

      Well, depends on your perspective.

      Sometimes “stunts” are necessary – just ask Alex Salmond. 🙂

    107. Ken500 says:

      They did not just just walk out. He was told to get out. The rest joined him. And?

      Even the Guardian posters agree, with the SNP. Sympathetic. How times change. Long time since accessing the site.

      MSM trying to say they walked out as a stunt. The Tory/unionists are a disgrace. Westminster just voted not to give the electorate a say on any Brexit ‘deal’. Totally non democratic. The Tories can’t last much longer. Labour/LibDem useless. Just can’t believe a Scottish MP voted for what Wales wants. It is totally farcical. Unbelievable. The LibDems are supposed to support EU membership. Wales voted for Brexit. Scotland voted to remain. What on earth!

    108. Craig P says:

      sassenach says:
      12 June, 2018 at 11:05 pm

      how the hell can we reach all the ‘ordinary’ Scots who aren’t really bothered as they are told nothing by our totally biased media, and even when any indy supporting politician is on TV they are heckled throughout any interview?

      Graffiti on road bridges? Something punchy like:

      Rape clause? Yuk! Fuk the UK
      Brexit? Yuk! Fuk the UK
      NHS sell-off? Yuk! Fuk the UK
      OO? Yuk! Fuk the UK
      Job loss? Yuk! Fuk the UK

      I am sure you can think of some snappy

      xx? Yuk! Fuk the UK

      slogans of your own. There’s plenty of choice.

    109. Sinky says:

      MPs are entitled to call for the public and press to be excluded from the Commons galleries at any time, usually to disrupt or delay proceedings. They used to call out “I spy strangers” but this was replaced with the phrase “sit in private” in 1998.

      Mr Bercow ignored the rules of the Parliament as a vote this should have heard immediately not at the end of the FMQs

    110. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland is at long last learning that nations generally must fight for their right to exist. Exceptions are rare.
      Imperialist England will not relinquish Scotland without a struggle. Too much ‘national pride’ is at stake.
      The old anglo-scottish enmity just has been given a powerful shot in the arm.
      The SNP has walked out of the Unionist parliament. Wipe the dirt of it from your feet guys and do not go back.

    111. Artyhetty says:

      O/T

      Just had a petition from chnage.org to sign for democracy re UK. Apparently the UKgov have set aside first week of July for a ‘celebration’ of, ‘british democrac’ I kid you not. I feel sick to the stomach.

      Utter contempt for Scotland, a democracy being kicked in the face, by this disgusting UK London centric, narrow minded, insular, farce of a regime.

      Scotland, will you be ‘celebrating’? 🙁

      Get the tea on, and the empire biscuits ordered! Oh aye.
      Oh and no Scottish produce , most of which has been removed from the shelves of our ‘local’ supermarkets where we live btw.

    112. wull2 says:

      Now the 27 and the rest of the world will see what Scotland has to put up with.

      Vote YES and end this if asked.

    113. mr thms says:

      I think The Speaker should resign. He was visibly floundering by the request to sit in private. He knew Mr Blackford was right to hold it NOW, when telling him it would done, but only AFTER PMQT

    114. Welsh Sion says:

      Comments are open on the BBC web page in respect of this under the Politics label – NOT Scotland.

      Regular contributors will not be surprised by the flavour of current Anglo comments. Here’s the first one:

      1.
      Posted by
      Pookay
      Just now

      Good, now lets lock the doors and keep them out. Who cares what the Jocks are saying. They voted to stay part of England

    115. Bill Hume says:

      Her Majesty’s loyal opposition is henceforth to be renamed Her Majesty’s loyal abstainers.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      Labour abstained on the vote, which had no chance of defeating the governmen

      I was thinking about that earlier, and perhaps if Labour HAD said they’d vote against it, the Tory rebels would have too, they would have stood firm.

      As it was, any rebellion would have been self-sacrifice for no point, as the whole UK Labour party ran away from the fight.

    117. sinky says:

      Douglas Chapman tweets

      Experienced Tory MP who was in earshot tells me that The Speaker was advised that the vote @IanBlackfordMP asked for was allowable within Parliamentary procedures. “The clerks instruction to the speaker was quite clear” Provoked #constitionalcrisis @TheSNP #powergrab

    118. Fred says:

      This wee arse of a Speaker has sat too long, time he cleared his desk!

      We live in interesting times so we dae!

    119. Bill Hume says:

      I’ve just thought (yes, I know it doesn’t happen often) but if our SNP MPs are boycotting Westminster, will they be available to meet us all at Bannockburn?
      It would be highly symbolic.
      Even better if our MSPs turned up as well.

      p.s. If you see a small, rotund OAP being towed around Bannockburn by a Bernese Mountain Dog, it’s probably me.

    120. Scottish Steve says:

      I’ve said it time and time again, this wont convince many No voters. They will have enjoyed watching the SNP MPs being “put in their place” and will be outraged that the MPs did not do as they were told.

      Independence is the only option. Anyone who prefers Westminster can go live in England if they love it so much.

    121. Breastplate says:

      Ken500,
      You were chastising others for getting it wrong. I felt that you needed to be furnished with the reality.
      Please don’t address me again with your piss poor tone and your arrogant attitude.

    122. Bob Mack says:

      Democracy is just fine—when you have numbers on your side of Democracy. We are fighting a battle with fewer numbers.

      However, that does not mean we cannot win. I posted some time ago that the other way to win this fight was to enrage and frustrate the English public. We have seen that work today. English extremists very angry indeed. We must use guerilla tactics. Harrass and stall. Disobey convention. Introduce novelty ( clapping etc). Anything to upset the traditions and conventions of that place and thus the Establishment.

      England has a love of tradition, and will become furious if the SNP challenge those traditions.

      This game is just beginning.

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      A little warning. If you post on Richard Murphy’s blog don’t disagree with him or defend yourself against crazy attacks.

      I had some nonsense misquoting and partial quoting, taking me completely wrong, when all I was saying was that LVT could be as unfair as the council tax, and some rubbish about being “right-wing”, but my reply wasn’t put up, though a short one did appear. I then posted about that to get a pretty silly reply and told to go away. After that though, with “no right of reply”, an ad hominem against me from someone was put up (last in thread) and the thread is now closed.

      So if you do post there, watch your step. It’s funny actually, the irony of an accusation from him about being “egotistical” for a moniker like yesindyref2 was clearly lost on him. Incidentally, I just don’t post on the Herald any more, apart from last Sunday, they didn’t ban me even though I do express my views strongly at times. Even my comment about Leask STAYED UP.

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Well, one thing’s for sure, this will be the last nail in the coffin of NorthBritLab. Devo is now on the endangered list, and federalism is as dead and gone as the dodo.

      Where is El Gordo and “Scotland, be a leader not a leaver” now?

    125. Robert Peffers says:

      @Artyhetty says: 13 June, 2018 at 11:58 am:

      ” … The so called UK is a rabid regime, democracy is dead.”

      Democracy has never been alive in the so called United Kingdom of Great Britain and I’ve been telling anyone who would listen just that since I was a boy in 1946. What is more the Kingdom of England was plotting that outcome for a very long time before even the so called, “Union of the Crowns”:-

      In August 1503, James IV of Scotland married Margaret, eldest daughter of Henry VII of England, and the spirit of the new age was celebrated by the poet William Dunbar in The Thrissil and the Rois.

      The marriage was the outcome of, “The Treaty of Perpetual Peace”, concluded the previous year, which, in theory, ended centuries of Anglo-Scottish rivalry.

      The marriage brought Scotland’s Stuarts into England’s Tudor line of succession, despite the improbability of a Scottish prince acceding the English throne at the time. However, many on the English side were concerned by the dynastic implications of matrimony, including some Privy Councillors.

    126. Liz g says:

      OT sorry
      Am in a conversation with a soft yoon
      Can anybody tell me what the script is with the Tax breaks for immigrants
      And is it a post Indy proposal or can Holyrood do it now
      He is saying that he objects to paying more tax than an immigrant

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      Sheesh, just catching up elsewhere, it’s all been happening!

      http://www.thenational.scot/

      Herald covers it too. Way to go the all alive [1] thirty-five.

      [1] Best I could do in a hurry

    128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Movy @ 13:16,

      Oh, the boundaries of Dunbartonshire East are notoriously elastic when Swinson is in residence.

      Just like her principles, really.

    129. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 14:48,

      The anti-immigrants are not the “soft yoons”, Liz. Nasty UK can out-bid us on that issue every time.

      Best reply is to say that only with independence will his voice on the matter (or any other matter) count. Otherwise he will just be ignored and outvoted by others who don’t give a damn what he thinks.

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      Just checking out the Herald coverage, and it seems fair enough (Michael Settle):

      THE SNP has staged a dramatic walk-out in the House of Commons after Ian Blackford its Westminster leader defied the Speaker, insisting the UK Government had shown total disrespect and discourtesy to Scotland by its actions over the Brexit Bill.

      I do wonder about the Herald, one of the reasons strangely enough I’m leaving it along. I didn’t see the PMQ thing, but the rest of the article seems to be a narrative, not a biased report.

    131. Karmanaut says:

      Our proper-grown-up-and-not-infantile-nor-petulant media gave more space to Nicola Sturgeon’s coffee machine.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/woman-buys-thing-with-own-money/

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, actually the Herald article is better than the National one, about the actual walk-out. Strange things are happening.

      Brilliant stuff though.

    133. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 3.03
      He’s just a bigot Robert,but a bigot cause he’s thick, hates the English too but wouldn’t vote for Indy if it ment more immigration last time.
      Almost talked round this time but whatever this tax break for immigrants is????
      He’s assuming that its personal income tax and I can’t explain what exactly it is cause I don’t know myself!

    134. Robert Peffers says:

      @S.Perspective says: 13 June, 2018 at 12:00 pm:

      “With media failure, the only thing to do now is to take it to the streets and doorsteps.”

      Aye! S.Perspective, and that has actually always been the case. The stark fact is that as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign. (that is as stated in Article 19 of the Treaty of Union). It is thus the legally sovereign people of Scotland, a.k.a. The Grass Roots, who must stand up for their legal sovereignty.

      It is the duty of every one of, “The People of Scotland”, to stand up and defend Scotland’s sovereign rights. Remember also the term, “The people of Scotland”, includes all those who are mainly resident in Scotland no matter their colour, country of origin, their creed or their political affiliations.

      The legally sovereign people of Scotland are the main driving force in Scotland’s defence and not the elected parliamentarians we voted in as our delegates to exercise our legal sovereignty and that includes all of those elected to serve as our delegates including those from the London based Tory, Labour and LibDem parties.

      We must immediately make it plain to our elected representatives that we are their masters and not the political parties they chose to join. We must make it clear to them that they either defend our people’s sovereign will or resign. Failure to do so will see them voted out of office.

      The same goes for Her Majesty, Queen of Scots for under Scots law she is the defender of the People’s sovereignty – she either does her job or she has to be replaced by someone who will do that job.

      It is no longer just the Scottish Government and the elected to Westminster members responsibility but the responsibility of everyone one of Scotland’s peoples. I have no doubts that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will be fighting for Scotland but I doubt the loyalties of all three unionist party elected members.

      However, it would probably be an act of folly to act too soon and I have no doubts the SNP saw this coming well before the rest of us and I trust the SNP/SG and our Westminster MPs to judge the best course of action. It certainly is not the time to be doubting their commitment to Scotland.

    135. Bobp says:

      Scottish steve 2.21pm i’m in agreement here.ANYONE who owes allegiance to westminster should not be living in Scotland.

    136. Smallaxe says:

      Welsh Sion @1:46 PM,

      I’ve just noticed your comment, thank you, I enjoyed that.
      🙂

    137. Legerwood says:

      Liz g @ 3.16pm

      I think this is the ‘payment’ to immigrants that you are talking about.

      It was a proposal in the GC report according to this article from the Independent
      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scotland-immigrants-cash-money-moving-brexit-nicola-sturgeon-andrew-wilson-scottish-independence-a8369786.html

      Since the immigrants in question are likely to be highly skilled then even a temporary cut in taxes to cover relocation expenses will still leave them paying more tax than Joe Soap who appears to be objecting to the proposal.

    138. Harry Shanks says:

      @Liz G –

      Throw it back in his face

      An interesting question to put to the Yoon you are debating with is : “On the other hand, would you be happy to pay *less* tax than an immigrant”?

      I think that might flush him out 🙂

    139. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 15:16,

      It was part of the GCR, I believe. Your pal (I use the term advisedly =grin=) probably read it in the Daily Express, since a gaggle of the usual tabloids highlighted the issue on their front pages in another of these amazingly coincidental synchronisms.

      Basically the notion is to offer high-wage immigrants an income tax reduction to offset the costs of relocation. So that they come here and pay taxes over the longer-term that they wouldn’t otherwise pay if they didn’t come.

      It’s all part and parcel of the basic fact of life that the Scottish economy needs more people to prosper. (It’s either that or make a whole lot more Scottish babies. Heh, heh.)

      Hard to know though how to sell that to someone like your blinkered pal, even though he (like all of us) will be better off because of it.

      That’s why, incidentally, given the honourable stance of the SNP (and Greens), I don’t think we can appease those among the Yes-Leavers for whom immigration is the main issue. Even though in the end with indy the choice will be ours alone to take, them included.

      But good for you to try with this fella. I’m no good at dirty tricks, alas, but you could always tell him that post-Brexit, the global-trading UK will be forced via its trade deals to open its doors to a lot of low-wage dark-skinned people, and also to make up for the loss of all the Europeans. And he won’t have any choice at all about that, the English will force it on him! =sigh=

    140. mike gunn says:

      The big question is … what will it take?

      For us, already believing in autonomy, this is a major event. For those who don’t this event means nothing.
      When will an act of such contempt as seen from WM today have such a direct effect on individuals that people change their mind?
      When will the penny drop and enough people realise they were wrong 4 years ago?
      We are wanting/needing 3% to admit they were wrong and change opinion. That a hard thing to ask.
      Only when their lives change and they can directly attribute that to WM will they admit that.

    141. wull2 says:

      Just before they walked out the speaker is taking advice and says “He won’t, then we will have to have the vote” they knew IanBlackfordMP was within his rights.I was not the only one who spotted it.
      https://twitter.com/i/status/1006925887185485826

      Now will you please vote YES next time.
      Please share he was correct with all your friends YES or no voters.

    142. Douglas Mitchell says:

      STV 6.00pm New, you suck!!! Opening credits SNP brexit chaos MP’s walk-out, following by missing helicopter pilot. However, announcer starts news dialogue straight away with the helicopter crash (yes, tragic) but apparently more important than SNP walk-out. Switch-off people, the news IS NOT being reported where you are…

    143. Calum McKay says:

      Iain Murray this morning on bbc, sounded like a snake oil seller dismissing a cutomer who had concerns about the medicines he thought he bought.

      Murray sees parliamentary proceedure in England as more important than the Scottish People.

    144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      mike gunn @ 17:49,

      I don’t believe people are as monolithic and unchangeable as all that, Mike. They can put up with an awful lot, it’s true, but then one day something just gives…

      It’s the old “straw breaking the camel’s back” theme. The most unlikely thing can make everything suddenly flip.

      Whether this is such a moment or not remains to be seen. But it could be. See for example the reported surge today in SNP membership. It’s getting harder and harder now to believe there’s a viable devo “middle way”.

    145. Bill Purves says:

      After watching Prime ministers questions I have come to the conclusion that Westminster has become a Dictatorship.
      It is now time for the Scottish Government to rescind the Treaty of the Union of Parliaments.
      Just as the British [English] Parliament is doing with the Treaty with the European Union.

    146. Ewan says:

      Democracy is dead – long live Democracy. Time a Scots General Election was called and let people know that this an Independence election i.e. Vote SNP for your country or forever allow Scotland to be a “footstool” for Westminster. Why waste time on another Referendum.

    147. Rock says:

      Luigi says:
      13 June, 2018 at 1:06 pm

      “I expect Rock will be on shift tonight trying desperately (yet again) to convince us it’s too little too late.”

      Do you still believe in the pretendy “sovereignty” of the Scots?

      Is Nicola going to assert it on your behalf?

      As I have been saying, Scotland can forget about independence for the next 622 years at least.

    148. Liz g says:

      Lesgerwood @ 5.18 & Robert J Sutherland @ 5.41
      Thank you both, that’s exactly the information I was looking for.
      Harry Shanks @ 5.21
      Thanks for the suggestion but he is no actually a tax payer, and dosent get irony.
      But he is one of those people who will take any opinion on board… it’s just a matter of where he gets it from and every time I can make his sources look dum and wrong he jumps on board,it was just that I didn’t know what the Tax thing was.
      The British Media have a sin to answer for!!!



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