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The Cuckoo Principle

Posted on October 10, 2019 by

Our latest Panelbase poll, conducted exclusively among SNP voters, has proven to be the most controversial we’ve ever done. So let’s see if we can get things back onto some nice safe ground: the transgender debate. (“Oh no!” – everyone)

Pictured above, front right, at the recent Dundee Pride is Shirley-Anne Somerville, the cabinet minister in charge of the second public “consultation” being held on the Scottish Government’s transgender policy. Somerville told the event that regardless of the consultation’s outcome she planned to press ahead with the “self-ID” proposals anyway, and that “trans women are women and trans men are men”. She’s almost literally nailed her colours to the mast in advance of the results – she’s wearing a jumper in the blue, pink and white horizontal stripes of the transgender flag.

And the issue of whether people with penises should be allowed to declare themselves women purely on their own say-so and access all female-only spaces unchallenged is one that’s currently tearing the SNP in two.

Even as Joanna Cherry was making the national headlines recently defeating the UK government at the Supreme Court, the extremist woke wing of the party – personified by the “Young Scots for Independence” (YSI) and “Out For Indy” (OFI) groups – were mounting a determined campaign to have her deselected as an MP.

Interestingly, media articles reporting the process have been mysteriously vanished, but it’s not something that YSI and OFI make any secret about – they’ve been openly and publicly targeting the seats of Cherry and other “gender-critical” women in the party, in particular Joan McAlpine.

(The first tweet below is from the boyfriend of SNP MEP Alyn Smith.)

Although some of them have belatedly started to attempt to cover their tracks.

(OFI’s other co-convenor, a large bearded man, recently proudly announced on social media that he uses women’s toilets “all the time”, regardless of women’s objections – “idc” means “I don’t care”.)

Both covertly and overtly, a concerted and organised attempt is being made to purge the party of gender-critical women and replace them with hardline trans activists on the ruling National Executive Committee which controls all SNP candidate selections and policy decisions.

This tactic, which has historically dogged the Labour Party, is known as “entryism”, and is a means by which small fringe groups take over positions of power within parties in order to change the party’s agenda to their own. It’s perhaps more easily understood as the same method by which cuckoos push the eggs of other birds out of their nests and lay their own there to replace them.

But what do the party’s voters make of it all? We’ve depicted these results as a graph to illustrate their striking nature.

A large percentage of people are still essentially unaware of the subject, and chose the “neutral” option. (We can deduce that’s why they picked the option because their numbers closely mirror the proportion of “Don’t Know” responses in previous questions on the subject.) But otherwise, in a reversal of what polls normally find on social issues, by far the largest groupings are at the absolute polar extreme positions.

And the overall division is almost total: 38% of SNP voters expressed some level of opposition to the proposals, with 35% expressing some level of support. Excluding the neutrals that’s 52-48, with those opposed to self-ID narrowly ahead.

The demographic which was by far the most likely to be “completely supportive” of the erasure of women’s rights was young men (24%) – a startling contrast to the 14% of young women wholly in favour – while the most completely opposed group were older women (27%).

Overall, though, young men and young women both backed the proposals, while the middle age-group were split: men against by 43-37, women in favour by 41-37.

Older people of both sexes – who are the least likely to be up-to-date with the latest developments in identity politics – were by a significant distance the most likely to be undecided, but older men nevertheless recorded huge total opposition of 52-17 and older women an also-resounding 44-24.

So far the party’s approach to this gaping toxic schism in its ranks has been to try to shut down all discussion and debate, ignore or aggressively mock the concerns of women and push ahead with reforms for the benefit of less than 1% of the population. It remains to be seen how long that strategy can hold. Eggs are fragile things.

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    1. 10 10 19 14:56

      The Cuckoo Principle | speymouth

    240 to “The Cuckoo Principle”

    1. Milady says:

      Everyone I have recently spoken to on this subject has been totally unaware it is happening, from my dad to my in-laws, to various friends. All were shocked such a thing was even being proposed. Once this really gets into mainstream that middle column will shift, based only on my home ground it isn’t going to be a boon to the woke brigade.

      One male friend was distraught, and sort of angry, I’d resigned from SNP over “a niche issue” but, after hearing my views, he at least had good grace to admit not being fully aware of the implications and understood the depth of feeling about it.

    2. Lenny Hartley says:

      I cannot believe why the SNP Hierachy are so blind to the potential damage this issue could do to the cause of Independence. The Tories have already stated that they are going to Weaponise this subject against Labour in Northern England, they will do the same against the SNP in Scotland and as the poll shows what we risk losing is the votes of the people we need most.
      This needs to be parked until after Independence and then properly consulted before a decision is made.

    3. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Blimey…

      Okay, who’s first then?

      🙂

    4. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nope. Not getting into this one.

    5. Harry mcaye says:

      It truly is a world gone mad. That big meteor can’t come quickly enough.

    6. ClanDonald says:

      I’m really surprised that there are so many in favour to be honest. That’s an awful lot of SNP members happy to throw away women’s rights.

      There are plenty SNP members who have left the party because of this. Which is a shame, we really need gender critical members inside the party to fight against it. Because it’s what will lose the SNP the next election.

    7. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Radical entryism into the SNP. Is there any other way that anyone has yet missed of snatching defeat from the jaws of potential indy victory? =sigh=

    8. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I can only repeat what I have said before on this subject. If you’ve got a cock and balls – you’re a man.

      You might want to be a woman; you may well be an unfortunate living in the “wrong” body.

      But, if you really want to be a woman – get rid of your male genitalia, difficult though it may be to have the operation – otherwise: shut the fuck up – you’re a man, live with it and leave women in peace.

    9. Andrew (Andy) Crow says:

      I’m in the older male group and staunchly agnostic.

      I find it very difficult to understand (from my personal perspective) how people are unsure about their own sexual identity.

      I don’t understand. So I’m very firmly in that central column of ‘Don’t Knows’ or ‘neutrals’.

      For the time being at least.

    10. RobertTheTruth says:

      I have never seen any defence of this policy from anyone who purports to be an SNP member on here. It would be interesting to see a viewpoint from a member who is entirely on board with this.

    11. Bob Mack says:

      It wil! cost the SNP at least three votes in my household.

      Four if I include myself, but I wont.

      Bad policy ,badly consulted. My eldest thinks fracking is more considered than are her rights as a female.

    12. Mist001 says:

      I have my own views regarding this subject and the SNP but I dodn’t want to run the risk of litigation either to this board or myself, so I’ll keep my thoughts private on that, but I will say this:

      Like religion, I have no concern what people believe or don’t believe, it’s none of my business and it’s completely up to the individual. I hold this same belief regarding self ID. Who cares? It’s none of my business.

      What I do strongly, vehemently object to is when people with these beliefs and ideas take it upon themselves to make it my business by attempting to impose their views and beliefs on me and/or my family. These people may have rights, but they have NO right to impose their views on anyone else.

      And that’s the stance that the SNP should be firmly taking in this situation, instead of being wishy washy and ignoring the problem but as I said in the beginning, I have my own ideas about why this is.

      To be clear, the problem isn’t self ID, it’s the imposition of these beliefs on others.

    13. Fraser Reid says:

      Trying to push someone out because they do not agree with you is totally Tory/Undemocratic and should be banned from the SNP.
      Get these secret groups out! There should be no hiding in the SNP.

    14. kininvie says:

      Is that the same Shirley-Anne Somerville who was appointed to the vital role of Director for Communities in Yes Scotland, then buggered off to fight a by-election she had no hope of winning, and never returned?

    15. MadCatWumman says:

      Political correctness is going to erode women’s rights & lose us Indy!

      Look at the percentages of people this will actually directly affect!
      0.0000001% of folk vs half the population.

      Funny how it’s genetically male beard sporting dress wearers who are shouting the loudest ( same group posting pics with weapons threatening violence against women!).

      Very few genetically female to male transitioners have an issue!

      What rights are currently missing that requires this legislation?

      Why should the wishes of a tiny minority be allowed to trash the hard fought rights of half the population?

      I had no interest in this until I started seeing the bs about lesbians being called Terf for not fancying transwoment!

      You fancy who you fancy! If you aren’t what someone fancies – get over it! Don’t try to force them because you are deluded enough to think it’s your ‘right’!

      If you won’t lose the beard or the balls – you can’t call yourself a woman!

      It’s not rocket science!

    16. Joannie says:

      You will never get an independent country if the SNP alienates large numbers of women.

      Maybe the male posters here who say they are agnostic on the issue should bear that in mind.

    17. Capella says:

      These posts are up for election at the SNP Conference. Let’s see how much support there is for the advocates of SElf ID. However, I would guess that most ordinary members don’t know anything about this issue – YET. Neither did I until a few months ago.

      Everything comes down to votes. It’s the votes that count and it’s also who counts the votes that counts.

    18. Artyhetty says:

      Crazy times. Whoever started this nonsense has done their homework. It’s going to ruin the SNP if they allow it to go ahead.

      That would be perfect for a very many people in the UK and outwith the UK, Scotland shackled to a little United States,( Eng) forever. A far right wing nasty little regime, no human rights, like, not even for those who ‘self ID’.

      Hell the English are already putting the army on the streets of Clydebank, the army, not the civic police, the fckg army, with guns!

      NO RIGHTS, well, if that’s what they want, a nasty little Britannia, with the army running the show in Scotland, it’s what’s coming.

      When is the meteor due again?

    19. Martyman says:

      I’m a pretty passive member of the party. Basically just putting my money where my mouth is. Haven’t attended any branch meetings or such yet.

      However … Joanna Cherry is my MP. If I hear any hint that this crowd have a presence in my branch, and are actively trying to get her de-delected, I will be straight along to the next branch meeting with a f@?£!ng baseball bat!!

    20. galamcennalath says:

      I have views on this, and could have a good rant. However, that’s not relevant. How it effects wider issues it what matters. Well, that’s what I think matters.

      For me, independence is the highest priority. I take that stance because I genuinely believe all other policies will be better dealt with by Scots for Scots.

      However, I know others look at things differently. We have already see how leaving the EU issue can shift the Yes-No boundary with some Yessers changing their positions because leaving the EU is more important to them. And, conversely we see twice as many No crossing to Yes because the EU is important to them.

      Supporting Yes and voting SNP are not always the same thing, but there’s a very big voter overlap. Critically, the SNP need to do well (along with other pro Indy parties) to ensure a majority for Indy in Holyrood. We need to ensure this majority or Indy is dead (for the foreseeable future).

      There are other issues out there which, if they became big talking points, have the potential to shift SNP voting patterns, the probability of a pro Indy parliament, and the winning of an IndyRef2. I am YES forever, regardless. Not everyone feels so strongly.

      This self IDing of gender issue might well be one of those ‘threatening’ issues. It has support among the young, so does Indy. It has the potential to shift voting patterns. I suspect/expect the majority will oppose it. That makes it particularly ‘dangerous’ in terms of support for the SNP and therefore Indy.

      From my perspective, it would be very very sad if Scotland ended up coupled indefinitely to a mad bad far right UK because of this issue being badly handled.

      Everyone needs to ask themselves, what are the biggest issues? If they really decide ‘self iding’, then so be it. But we don’t want a ‘disaster’ by ‘mistake’.

    21. Graf Midgehunter says:

      “A large percentage of people are still essentially unaware of the subject…..”

      Which is exactly why organisations like Stonewall or the Mermaids have been able to worm their way into the political/executive spheres to push their ideological humbug of non-scientific/biological theories. Ignorance is bliss when no one knows what your doing.

      As soon as the spotlight is switched on it all unravels as we’ve seen in the last few weeks, in particular with sport.

      I’m an SNP member and have just renewed my membership 10 days ago by telephone (the Europe branch)and I made sure that the young lady who took the call understood why I was 100% against the self-id crap, she noted it on my account and sounded quite relieved to hear it. 🙂

    22. Phil says:

      Could this whole thing be left for planners / architects to deal with, eg., Continentals seem to have done this for decades. Deciding data would be cost per sq ft. Provide separate facilities with shared washbasins. No legislation required.

    23. auld highlander says:

      It’s the chemicals in the food chain that’s buggering up everything including the sexes.

    24. dadsarmy says:

      media articles reporting the process have been mysteriously vanished,

      Eh? What this one?

      https://web.archive.org/web/20190813101444/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/party-s-rising-star-refuses-to-undergo-unfair-vetting-bmfl5026l

      Not all there of course, it has the paywall thing.

    25. Martin says:

      The SNP are the most likely party to be in government in Scotland. That attracts agenda pushers. It’s a shame though that the SNP have fallen for it. The place of respectful debate and consensus seems to have fallen by the wayside for woke fascism. Sad really, I can actually see this causing a bit of an SNP backlash from voters. Not necessarily defecting, but just not voting.

    26. dadsarmy says:

      A possible reason that article was removed is this “and raised the risk of rejected applicants taking legal action

      The paper’s legal dept said to get rid. Shrug.

    27. Mike K says:

      Out For Indy, The OFI pledge was happily and proudly endorsed by the Nicola via twitter.

      I believe Nicola knows exactly how these groups want to operate and what their goal is and appears happy to let them carry on?

      Who ever succeeds Nicola will find a party hamstrung by these fringe elements.

      It will take a generation, if ever, to get the SNP back on track.

      The question is WHY?

    28. Terry callachan says:

      Socrates macsporran…1.14pm

      I agree with what you say

      Until medical intervention is complete a person has to accept the classification on their birth certificate.
      Once medical intervention is complete and a doctor has declared the change completed then they can present as a different gender.

      Otherwise there will always be some people saying they are male one week and female the next.

      There was a recent law decision where a woman had changed ID and presented as male but then decided to have a baby and she wanted to have herself registered on the baby’s birth certificate as the father of her baby

      The law courts decided she could not
      She was told that she is the mother of the baby because she gave birth to the baby and only women can give birth to babies
      So she is registered as the mother of her baby on the baby’s birth certificate

      Well done the court of law is what I say

      From this court case we can see that people do not always consider others
      This woman did not properly consider what her baby when grown into adulthood will think of it all did she

      I suspect that is a very common issue

      I think the SNP will make good decisions ,they have up to now

      It’s good to have minority groups in politics it keeps a good balance reflecting society at large
      I do not think the groups discussed in this post are strong enough to have the effect some are espousing

    29. Bobp says:

      Let’s vote yes for independence, then we can vote for whatever party we like, even a Scottish monster raving loony party.

    30. Graeme says:

      I find it incredible that this is even up for debate, there are 2 genders male & female and nature decides which one we are, we don’t get to make that decision any more that we get to choose who our parents are.

      I agree nature may not get it right every time and some people find themselves in the wrong body but that’s life we just have to play whatever hand we’re dealt with and make the best of it, Many people are born with handicaps that medical science can’t fix, I want to be a Polar Bear but I just have to accept I can’t be a Polar Bear and get on with it because nature decided otherwise.

      If someone born a male wishes to live as a woman, dress as a woman etc that’s fine but it will never make then any less male that’s just a biological fact that no amount of self denial or surgical procedures can change it

    31. Confused says:

      the epic, beautiful surge in SNP numbers came with a downside

      careerists who would have once joined the labour party, knife and fork in hand

      extremists with unpopular views (democratically rejected) who joined to gain total control of one issue only

      – obviously none of these tossers actually care about independence, which may be the root of the current inaction; I mean who needs “enemy agents” when you have these wreckers.

      yeah, we really lost in 2014 because of the tranny vote … oh wait

    32. Del G says:

      STuart, you conflate neutrality with ignorance. My position is: FFS I don’t want to take sides in a battle which will work out badly for everyone, and I suspect a lot of unpolarised people mightr feel the same.

    33. Joannie says:

      @bobp – women will not vote yes to independence if they feel unsafe in an independent Scotland. This self ID stuff is pandering to a bunch of demented misogynists at the expense of women’s safety. It needs to be scrapped before it costs you independence.

    34. Doug Bryce says:

      So : The only place I have ever seen gender-id mentioned as a major issue, with respect to SNP or independence, is on this site.

      Article and poll seems to be fishing for reaction.

    35. galamcennalath says:

      LGBT? LGB I understand, that’s about sexual preference in partners. Seems straight (no pun intended) forward.

      Why the T? It was tagged on at some point. T has absolutely nothing to do with who you are attracted to, who you fancy. It has to do with how you see yourself.

      And one thing my now longish life has taught me …. I can’t expect others to see me as I would like to be seen!

    36. JMackenzie says:

      Maybe this whole campaign for ‘trans rights’ is being masterminded by forces unknown in order to destroy the SNP…. remember how the SSP was destroyed by the Tommy Sheridan scandal

    37. Colin Alexander says:

      I stopped voting SNP at Holyrood after the 2011 election. I did vote Green. No longer.

      I saw them as pro-indy parties and in the case of the Greens, a party who campaigns for a greener Scotland.

      My interest in politics is independence for Scotland, not those issues. Certainly not to criminalise parents if they decide to smack their child as a chastisement, even though personally, smacking isn’t something I would advocate.

      I’ve been a critic of Joan McAlpine MSP in the past but, I am disgusted at how she has been hounded for her views from elements within the SNP.

      Would vote SNP if it was a plebiscite election for indy, otherwise forget it.

      I don’t want to vote Wings or others to administer the Scotland colony either.
      Would only vote Wings or others if they sought a mandate to dissolve the Union followed by a confirmatory Scotland-only indyref.

    38. Dr Jim says:

      Prior to 2014 the SNP had 28.000 members, post referendum it surged to the now approximately 127.000 so nearly 100.000 folk from no party or mostly the Labour party rushed to join up with the winning team for various reasons, some of these folk were and are and always have been the kind of activists that no party actually wants, those same people in Jeremy Corbyns Labour in England are running the thing now by making threats and demands because they were allowed to become powerful and Corbyn lazily let them because he enjoyed the faux adulation of this group, but now that they’ve gotten out of hand he doesn’t know how to get rid of them without guaranteeing he’ll lose elections without them

      The SNP have seen that, we’ve all seen it, and noted it and won’t allow those same folk to do it in Scotland, but unfortunately democracy is used by those who mean to be extreme in society just as those of us who are more centrist, the difference is the people with extreme views do tend to work obsessively hard to get their way so getting rid of them has to be democratically done or we get accused of dictatorship by those same interested parties, and the media would like that story very much more than any actual real issues concerning people

      The Tories have the same problem with their Nazi wing, the Liberal Democrats have it’s problem trying to hide the fact that most of them are Tories and of course we have the communists hiding out in the Greens, the Labour party and the SNP

      The SNP are at core a centre left mainstream party and most of our views tend to be based on majority views except on Independence for Scotland which previously was not the majority but is now, but that took 80 years

      I fervently hope the SNP find a way to resolve this issue, the gender one, because I believe they will do that anyway, the difficult activist issue is more of a problem because with those folk there’s always another cause and another, it’s a way of life for them as we see the Labour party in England crumble day by day and become impotent from the same thing

      Scotland’s a small c conservative moderate country and we don’t care for disruption much, although you’d think we’d be pretty immune to it after 300 years,but as a country we like to plod along, we don’t do headlong dashes into stuff, that’s why Independence seems to be taking interminably long

      If the SNP were an army some would be AWOL some would be in the Glasshouse, some on compassionate leave, the whole membership is so huge, that’s an awful lot of people to expect them all to be the same and do what that every individual person hopes they’ll do or say

      Pretty much like the Wings readership in fact

    39. Terry callachan says:

      I do not think bringing this subject up continually has any beneficial outcome
      The law and the medical profession ultimately will decide

    40. Awizgonny says:

      Neutral does not mean don’t know. Thats a highly unprofessional presumption Neutralneutral. If you’d wanted to gauge don’t know you should have had it as an option.

    41. Martin says:

      Nobody is born in the “wrong body.” The body is the person, and to say it is the wrong body is absurd. It is your body and the only body you will ever have.

      Gender dysphoria debate is a different thing, but the separation of self and body is a dangerous fanatacism.

    42. Linda McFarlane says:

      And this Stu, is why you will get my vote.

    43. Dr Jim says:

      O/T But just in, apparently Glasgow is not the drug capitol of Europe, it’s Bristol, and England is the capitol country of drug abuse in Europe

      Scientists have been checking the sewage outlets and rivers and waterways in England and they’re full of cocaine residue affecting the microscopic life in Englands water supplies the cocaine usage in England is that high

      England is literally shitting and peeing cocaine

    44. Gary says:

      Seems like you’re DETERMINED to give Kezia Dugdale ammunition against you by continuing this ‘crusade’ in regard to transgender issues.

      The law, as it stands, allows those born as one sex to legally become another sex if they fulfil certain criteria. It IS somewhat time consuming but it is a permanent change and applies to ALL of your information on record, ie someone born male would legally become female, no one would know that the person had ever been male unless ‘she’ decided to disclose it. Thus allowing the newly legal woman to marry a man in a ‘straight’ wedding rather than Civil Partnership or ‘Same Sex’ wedding.

      I’m not sure what the demands are of those who call for self identification but I’m assuming they’re looking to speed up the process. Because in every OTHER respect, if you seem to be female, for example, and say that you are, people will take you at your word. You need only wait, fulfil the legal criteria and all of your documentation will show you as female anyway.

      These laws have been in place for over a decade. I know this because I was required to update information for someone when I worked in the Civil Service under the, then, newish law.

      I don’t know why you have such a bee in your bonnet on this issue but it is actively diminishing your standing and leaves you vulnerable to attacks from people like Dugdale who, as we know, has already (wrongly) called you a ‘homophobe’ Please STOP giving her ammunition!!!

    45. Patsy Millar says:

      Stu, I see you’re getting pelters from some people on Twitter but as an SNP member I don’t think it’s healthy to see everything the SNP does through rose coloured glasses. Honest debate is always necessary. I think the SNP should be concentrating on independence though of course, as the party of government they have to be concerned with domestic matters; but it’s a sad day when factions with their own agenda seem to be the tail wagging the dog.

    46. Confused says:

      – there’s a good essay by Nassim Taleb called, I think “the dictatorship of the minority”

      it shows how the normal functioning of “open and democratic” structures can be completely captured by “activists”

      – scary thing is, I don’t think he was really saying anything new – it goes way back, and there’s even that saul alinsky book – rules for radicals

    47. Lenny Hartley says:

      Gary, dont think you understand the issues here, nobody as far as I am aware is disagreeing with current practice, the issue is that if any male self ID’s as a woman then the get acess to femail only safe places etc. Any male, paedophile, potentional rapist etc gets access no questions asked. Thats why there will be an uproar once the general public become aware of the issue.

    48. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Quite aside from self-ID as an issue, the matter of ‘entryism’ really needs to be addressed by SNP members at all levels.

      It’s worth clicking on the ‘entryism’ hyperlnk (2nd para after the ‘Count Joshula’ tweets) to get the Wiki version of what it means. For entryism to be effective (as it was with RISE taking over SSP infrastructure post GE 2015) there has to be at least some effort to maintain discpline and secrecy.

      If the tweets shown above are at all typical of the zealots who have already infiltrated the SNP, they evidence a remarkable degree of braggadocio and stupidity. It’s a dangerous combination.

      These characters may happen to be motivated by gender-related issues, aye, fair enough, but the simple fact that they’re openly discussing ‘pushing out’ elected representatives should set alarms off. The SNP has to take these people in hand, no matter how unpleasant it may be, because one thing’s for sure – they won’t go of their own accord.

    49. Jock Tamson says:

      Fortunately, the SNP is still far away from the zealous, narcistic obsession with social/ cultural and individualist identity politics that has ruined the Labour party. It’s probably too early to ruin the SNP if a referendum is held next year but in years to come could risk having a similar impact and alienating the middle of the road vote in Scotland. The transgender lobby supported by Scottish Government money is highly vocal , well organised and effective at influencing the soft SNP MSPs who don’t want to offend and who want to be “right on” and “inclusive”. Yet through their naivety do not understand the consequences of the Gender Recognition bill. Joanne Cherry does, as being an experienced lawyer she led in the prosecution of sexual crimes against women and with like-minded colleagues helped stall the implementation.The SNP has a responsibility for building support for independence. Minds should be concentrated there.

    50. Jock Tamson says:

      Dr Jim says:
      10 October, 2019 at 2:12 pm

      If the SNP were an army some would be AWOL some would be in the Glasshouse, some on compassionate leave, the whole membership is so huge, that’s an awful lot of people to expect them all to be the same and do what that every individual person hopes they’ll do or say

      Pretty much like the Wings readership in fact

      —————————————

      Brillianty put

    51. Golfnut says:

      Pretty toxic subject at this time in our nation’s constitutional journey to Independent Statehood. Which is pretty convenient for our opponents. It’s not just happening here of course, the Tory’s parked this particular issue just the other day. This isn’t a subject that should be decided by the Executive or Parliament, but by the people. I would prefer a referendum, after Indy, because this issue deals explicitly with the constitutional rights of the individual, and these rights enshrined in the Constitution. A written Constitution is what we are already trying to achieve. This issue can only ever be dealt with effectively by an informed population, hopefully after Indy, we will have a media which does just that. There is no way that gov or parl should deal with this, this is a matter for the electorate.

    52. SilverDarling says:

      @Gary

      I understand that that the requirement to ‘live as’ would no longer be required and the statement ‘I am’ would be enough.

      So a male who has no body modification or medical intervention can simply state they are female and gain access to any area that is at present, protected under law as female only. Those are areas of privacy, toilets, shelters, scholarships, services etc.

    53. dadsarmy says:

      @Terry callachan “The law and the medical profession ultimately will decide

      The problem Terry is that it’s the SNP MAKING the law with legislation, and if they want to allow women with penises to be in beds in hospital wards with women who have no choice because they’re ill, maybe even being resuscitated with a dozen or more assorted doctors around the bed opposite – or even vice versa – and sharing toilets where perhaps the door is left open, then they will, and the “law” will be that these very vulnerable women will have a choice of having women with penises seeing it all in all its glory making them exceedingly uncomfortable and perhaps even affecting their health, or refusing treatment becuase of women with penises in beds opposite them, and dying.

      I guess I made my mind up, put me and my wife who was resuscitated in ward in hospital, down as a completely opposed.

      Time to come down off the fence.

      And finally, put me down as Mr Angry. If the SNP pass this they can fuck off.

    54. SilverDarling says:

      This is the basis of the questions the SNP and SG are refusing to engage with at present. If this is not the case the confusion must be addressed and women’s groups be allowed to ask the SG what are the provisions for protecting these rights.

    55. Daisy Walker says:

      As a general observation – people don’t have an issue with things until it affects them directly, or affects someone close to them.

      This is an experience thing, and from what I have experienced – for the men out there, it really isn’t an issue until it is their Mum, their wife, their daughter (that one’s a biggie) that is being discriminated against, not getting the vote, unequal wages, never getting a chance at certain jobs, or being subjected to indecent exposure/assault in areas where they should be safe.

      I would not have paid any attention to this, on a basic assumption that I’m a liberal and a democrat, live and let live person and believed the SNP were too, if it hadn’t been for Wings Over Scotland.

      Thank you for highlighting the extreme, anti-democratic and frankly bonkers situation ongoing.

      For those who think this is not related to the campaign for Indy – please consider this.

      An Indy Scotland threatens the very fabric of what remains of the British Establishment, including the cash cow. They have over 300 years of dealing with this kind of thing – in the nastiest way possible.

      One well practised way was to infiltrate the labour Party which they did very early on in its existence.

      And where bribery and corruption do not work, the next method on the list, is to threaten the lives of their children. So easy for accidents to happen in this day and age.

      Where that happens, you get a shift in focus for that party, plausible in a wait and see/trust me kind of way, but none the less a shift.

      You also get a faction within – a totally unelectable faction. It makes the wait and see folk look so much more reasonable (think Tony Blair).

      Clause 4 Labour Party, militant faction, Michael Foot, 3 day week, looney left…

      It has all be done before, tried and tested.

      And for this reason, if the actual plan for Indy is to be kept secret, the active campaign should be in full swing. I don’t see it somehow.

      All elected reps within the SNP should nail their colours to the mast on the gender issue now and allow the local members to deselect them if needs be – and that might include some very high heid yins.

      If we leave on mass we lose – anyone who says we cannot do Indy without the SNP is correct. But it is equally true that if the BritNats can spike the SNP from within we also lose.

      SNP members need to be upstream of this and determine the policy and ensure there are no hiding places for people pursuing this policy at the expense of Indy.

      The bad publicity the named person scheme garnered was very small potatoes compared to the gun the GRA hands our opponents.

      No doubt Marhi Black would think me a Jeremy Hunt for the above. But personally I don’t trust anyone who ‘rubs kit-kats into their gums’.

    56. Ronnie says:

      Where’s the option for “I could’t care less about any of this shite”?

    57. And while this twitter storm gets legs on WoS, on the first of November, England will surround Scotland with barbed wire and watch towers.
      We shall be 5.4 prisoners of the English Iron Heel Oligarchy.
      This ‘trans’ kafuffle is obviously Black Ops at play.
      If I sit dutifully in a Department store while my Everlovin’ is in the changing room trying on a dress, and a man, dressed like a woman, but clearly a man, attempts to enter, my values dictate that I should stop him entering, via the store management of course.
      Am I in danger of being arrested for this ‘fair comment’?

      The Dead Tree Scrolls are full of numbnuts guff today to divert attention from the catastrophe which is about to unfold in 3 weeks’ time.
      You play into their hands, Stu, by giving this twitter storm in a tea cup oxygen.
      I don’t care if a lumberjack dresses in a pink tutu changes his name to Euphemia by deed poll, and has sex with the exhaust of his Reliant Robin.
      He is, and will ever remain, a ‘man’.
      Am I now breaking the law?
      Will I be getting a knock on the door?
      In 3 weeks’ time, our democracy collapses and a Far Right junta will drive us all into poverty privation and exile.
      Christ on a bike!

    58. Joannie says:

      Don’t you just love the arrogance of Gary telling Stu that defending women’s rights is “diminishing” him.

      In whose eyes Gary? Only people who think women aren’t fully human, surely.

    59. bittie45 says:

      Gender, self-id & testosterone and the right to not live in fear of assault are really important things to discuss, after we have our independence. Its ALSO good to understand the reasons why people vote the way they do so as to get the ball over the line. Joanna Cherry doing a sterling job for Scotland.

      O/t, anyone know what’s happened to Inform Scotland. There’s been no activity on their website since 1st July? (https://informscotland.com/)

    60. Iain Macpherson says:

      Replying to Gary, if the change from male to female was permanent I wouldn’t be against the proposal (though I wouldn’t care enough to support it either), but the problem is where a man can self ID at any time.
      Imagine if you will, a rapist awaiting trial who self IDs as female and is convicted and sent to a women’s jail.
      Or how about the local peeping tom, self IDing to gain access to the changing rooms at the local swimming baths.
      Or, on a lighter note the woman who self IDs as mail to join the shorter queue for the men’s loo at rugby, theatres, concert, wherever.
      The sooner we all get past this PC posh and call things what they are, the better.

    61. defo says:

      This is the downside of forced ‘equality’.
      Positive discrimination, the oxymoron king, has led us here.
      In my lifetime, we have gone from the wholly unfair position of homosexuality being illegal, to the point where, until the Dugs downfall, three (at least) of the ‘Scottish’party leaders were gay.
      A massive over representation, and not a coincidental one either i feel.
      Similarly, this trans bull is now being pushed right across the Western world, and I think i know why.The sowing of division, as distraction from the real issues of our time. All to save the position of the 0.1% elite.

      I have three teenage daughters, and by fuck i’ll fight for their hard won rights. These deviants in drag wielding baseball bats are only visible because the media, social and traditional, are actively and enthusiastically giving them a platform.

    62. fillofficer says:

      timely, rev
      i was extremely irritated by your doggedness on this issue,
      on this independence site, INITIALLY
      then i realised the cuckoo scenario & thought wtf are they up to
      infiltration in politics is standard, look at tomkins for example
      we are up against it here
      conference will be a defining moment for many members, in many ways

    63. Capella says:

      The reason people haven’t heard much about this issue is because the MSM is keeping quiet about it ATM. However, as Lenny Hartley points out, as soon as an independence campaign starts every tabloid will have lurid headlines of … I won’t provide them with a check list here – they already know anyway.

      In fact, it is quite possible that the “entryism” of the SNP is an organised attempt to degrade support. I see that the Tories are weaponising this issue and Liz Truss has cancelled Westminster’s consultation on reforming the GRA. That will put the Tories in the perfect position to campaign as the protectors of Women’s rights. They couldn’t have managed this better if they had planned it themseleves…

    64. Daisy Walker says:

      Mixed wards in hospitals.

      Do you really want our hard working medical staff, when they are keeping an eye on the patients well being, to now have to keep any eye out to see if the male patient on the ward is going to attempt to sexually assault the female in the next bed who is unconscious due to the strong medication she is on.

      And how will they manage to do that if another patient requires urgent medical assistance.

      It would never happen of course, except for the time that it did.

      Thankfully sex offenders (and no, I’m not saying all males, or all transgenders are sex offenders – just the usual percentage in any given group), are SO lazy, even the slightest hurdle is enough to put them off… really.

    65. As one of the 5.385 million Scots not on twitter…
      Oh, look, a squirrel.

    66. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Ronnie
      ‘where’s the option ‘ I couldn’t care less about this shite’

      As a general observation – people don’t have an issue with things until it affects them directly, or affects someone close to them.

      This is an experience thing, and from what I have experienced – for the men out there, it really isn’t an issue until it is their Mum, their wife, their daughter (that one’s a biggie) that is being discriminated against, not getting the vote, unequal wages, never getting a chance at certain jobs, or being subjected to indecent exposure/assault in areas where they should be safe.

      Thanks Ronnie – you highlight my point beautifully.

    67. galamcennalath says:

      There’s an astonish level of narcissism is say, “you must see me as I see myself”.

    68. Jules says:

      I’m another who’d put ‘neutral’ despite being relatively well-informed about the debate.

      I understand both ends of the spectrum. And my hope and suggestion is that some sort of fudge/compromise that accommodates the various points of view can be found.

      What I really don’t want is for this to damage the indy movement and/or cost the SNP votes. An indy Scotland can sort this out as best we can once were independent. Damaging the indy movement or the SNP at this juncture would just mean blowing our best ever chance of independence. And I don’t think the best interests me of anyone, including trans people and women, are best-served by leaving us in the clutches of BoJo and Nig.

      Put it this way. The Pamela Nashs of the world would love nothing more than to see this schism grow.

    69. Kat says:

      Can’t for the life of me understand why you used a 10 point scale on that question. This isn’t a subject that has many shades of grey, if any. The implications of self ID are almost binary in nature – keep women’s right safe or throw them to the wolves – it’s basically a for or against scenario.

      A better approach to this question would have been agree, disagree and don’t know. That would have given you better data on the amount of support each side has as well as an idea of just how many people need to pay more attention.

      As for me voting SNP in future with this nonsense going on, well that remains to be seen based on the timing of the next elections and an indy ref.

    70. Daisy Walker says:

      One question the Rev has repeatedly asked and had no answer for is, exactly what rights are transgenders being denied under the current legislation.

      With regards the below point –

      ‘Similarly, this trans bull is now being pushed right across the Western world, and I think i know why.The sowing of division, as distraction from the real issues of our time. All to save the position of the 0.1% elite.’

      Hormone Replacement Therapy lost its market pretty much overnight with a connection to Breast Cancer. To that end a new market was needed.

      A trangender operation from male to female costs about $22,000 and thereafter a lifetime of HRT – from memory I think the figure of around $800,000 was quoted for about 10 years worth.

      Someone on here (sorry cannot remember who) put a link up showing the research for the lobbying history of Trans. There is some extremely large corporation money backing this ‘movement’ – connected in part to big Pharma and the American Bible Thumping/Right.

      With regards the puberty blocking meds – which actually cause infertility and bone density issues. Previous studies showed the teenagers going through the body/gender issues, tended to grow out of it and were actually ‘just’ gay. Hence the religious groups interest – they see it as a ‘cure’ for homosexuality.

    71. galamcennalath says:

      Jules says:

      What I really don’t want is for this to damage the indy movement and/or cost the SNP votes. …. Damaging the indy movement or the SNP at this juncture would just mean blowing our best ever chance of independence.

      Indeed, and that’s exactly what our ‘enemies’ would want. In fact, no doubt they will try to weaponise the issue for just that end.

      The issue needs to be set aside for now. Not just this issue, but any issue that’s divisive. We can sort all that out after Indy.

      This time window is our best chance, probably ever, to get the chance to actually make all decisions for ourselves.

      Sometimes it focuses the mind to try to think like our ‘enemies’. Ask, what would you do in their shoes to stop independence? Then, assume they will deploy every tactic you can imagine, and other schemes you haven’t thought of yet!

    72. Merkin Scot says:

      Capella : ‘In fact, it is quite possible that the “entryism” of the SNP is an organised attempt to degrade support. I see that the Tories are weaponising this issue and Liz Truss has cancelled Westminster’s consultation on reforming the GRA.’
      .
      Exactly!

    73. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Jack Collatin

      ‘You play into their hands, Stu, by giving this twitter storm in a tea cup oxygen.’

      My human rights, as a female, my personal safety, my hard one equal opportunities – are most certainly not A STORM IN A TEA CUP.

      And just because it hasn’t or won’t affected you – yet, or someone close to you – yet, does not mean I will quietly allow it to happen.

      It really is as fundamentally important as Indy for Scotland.

    74. Garrion says:

      If I were interested in effectively destroying the SNP and effectively preventing independence, this is precisely how I would do it.

    75. Tony O"neill says:

      These groups are nothing more than fith columnists inside the snp. The membership better get it’s shit together pdq, the snp leadership and these infiltrators will destroy scotlands chance of freedom if they go unchallenged.

    76. Gary says:

      Its DNA – xy chromosomes for men and xx chromosomes for women. surgery or self preferance cant change that. its nature.
      Reminds me of the quote in Gregorys girl and later trainspotting – ” in a million years there will be no men or womwn, just a world full of wankrs”!!

      seems we are heading there fast!

    77. Joannie says:

      You cannot set aside the issue for now, it’s too late for that once it’s already become apparent how vulnerable the SNP are to entryism from trans extremists. There needs to be a firm commitment now that self ID will be rejected by the SNP and women’s sex based rights will be safe in an independent Scotland.

    78. Jules says:

      Daisy 3.36:
      Of course your basic, hard-won human rights are not a storm in a tea cup. And neither are the rights of trans people to see the end of entrenched inequality against them come to an end. And therein lies the challenge that’s so difficult to reconcile.

      All I’m saying is that it’s possible to have some sympathy with both sides of this while still recognising how important it is and how deeply-held the views are.

    79. Joannie says:

      Oh cop yourself on Jules. Self ID will not help trans people in any way whatsoever, nor is it intended to. It’s a misogynistic backlash against women, which is why you rarely hear anything about transmen.

    80. Tony O"neill says:

      Time for these infiltrators and saboteurs to be expelled from the snp, for the sake of women and the future of Scotland.

    81. Capella says:

      @ Daisy Walker – the article on American billionaires investing in the Trans industry:

      https://thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

    82. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “A better approach to this question would have been agree, disagree and don’t know. That would have given you better data on the amount of support each side has as well as an idea of just how many people need to pay more attention.”

      We’ve done that before. This time we wanted a more nuanced picture of how MUCH people cared either way, and the results are startling and informative.

    83. Tony O"neill says:

      This self id nonsense in the snp is a cancer that can not be ignored any further, if left untreated it could kill our chance of winning independence and possibly the snp as well. If you you think this is nonsense, or even scaremongering, I give you the tory party and brexit as an example of what could happen.

    84. Essexexile says:

      Been following this for a good while via the Rev’s twitter.
      It is complete madness. To risk the collapse of the female Yes vote for the sake of a few individuals toilet preference. It shows how far this bizarre clique have got their hooks into the Scotgov and that keeping it under the radar is the only thing from jeopardising indy.
      This is why it’s hard to believe they want indy any time soon. Implementing their crazy social engineering ideas will take time and they know they will be much more open to scrutiny post independence.
      While there is no alternative, the SNP will continue effectively unopposed and closed to criticism. So daft ideas like self ID will become reality.
      While there is no alternative….

    85. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jules @ 15:42,

      There’s a big difference between everyday tolerance and official recording of status. My guess is that a policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell” would get by in most everyday situations. The sticking point comes when radicals begin demanding official recognition for scientific absurdities. Maybe the compromise is to leave birth certs well alone but to allow a self-recording status of “trans”. Which is no more or less than the truth of the situation.

      (Curious really, though, that trans “women” still seem to think and react like men. All that early exposure to male hormones regardless, I suppose…)

    86. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I understand both ends of the spectrum. And my hope and suggestion is that some sort of fudge/compromise that accommodates the various points of view can be found.”

      A fudge/compromise is what we have now, and what the SNP want to throw in the bin. Right now trans people can have their legal sex redefined, which is a completely bullshit idea – no mammal can ever change their sex – but there are safeguards in place to prevent it being easily abused. The new proposals are to do away with every one of those safeguards and replace them with self-declaration.

      There is no neutral here. The law as it exists is a compromise. You’re either in favour of its protections being ditched or you’re not.

    87. Jules says:

      Joannie, is it not better to debate this in a relatively friendly way?
      If there’s nothing in it for trans people, why is it that trans activists are calling for it? And if it’s so misogynistic, why are people who have been firm feminists such as Nicola Sturgeon and Shirley-Anne broadly supportive? (These questions aren’t trying to make a point btw, they’re genuine questions…)

    88. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Where’s the option for “I could’t care less about any of this shite”?”

      That would be “5 – Neutral”, or in your case “5 – Doesn’t give a shit about women”.

    89. dadsarmy says:

      @Jules
      Can you tell me why a self-ID’d woman with a penis would want to be in a non-mixed hospital ward with women with vaginas? My wife for instance who was resuscitated IN the ward with 3 other occupied beds in that ward, at at time they didn’t actually know what was wrong with her?

      Simple question.

    90. Joanna Cherry went to the Supreme Court, for them to declare that the English Parliament is sovereign, not the Prime minister, not the Monarchy, as in the Treaty of the Union.
      The Supreme Court, by the same Treaty, has to rule that the Scottish people are sovereign.

    91. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Seems like you’re DETERMINED to give Kezia Dugdale ammunition against you by continuing this ‘crusade’ in regard to transgender issues.”

      None of this has any bearing whatsoever on the Dugdale case. She tried to conflate homosexuality and transgenderism and the sheriff essentially told her to piss off because they weren’t the same thing.

      “I’m not sure what the demands are of those who call for self identification but I’m assuming they’re looking to speed up the process.”

      If you haven’t a clue what the issue is, maybe best to shush until you do.

    92. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Neutral does not mean don’t know. Thats a highly unprofessional presumption”

      FFS. The article specifically addresses why it’s a reasonable conclusion to draw.

    93. Lollysmum says:

      Commenters saying concentrate on Indy first then sort the other stuff when we’re independent. What you don’t realise is this is going on now & we are nowhere near Indy so you are willing to let SNP allow MEN into all of women’s safe spaces.

      A school in Edinburgh (despite Scotgov guidance)has reverted back to the norm of male & female toilets & changing rooms after the students decided it wasn’t right. It was their choice & against staff instructions but they just decided they were not playing along.

      Personally I’m against self-ID. Too many people have been subjected to harassment-did you see that the Counting House has problems with this issue & women are staying away?

      I will leave SNP over this issue. There is a pledge against Self-ID circulating online almost 1600 SNP members have signed it. You may think that isn’t many but how many of those have daughters, husbands, sons who will also object to their female relatives suffering from this policy then watch the numbers against it rise.

      I tried to stay out of the Self-ID issue originally because I didn’t know anything about it. Now that I have looked into it , read around the subject & looked at what is happening in other countries I know that I don’t want it for me, my female grandchildren, my neighbours female children, my country’s females of whatever age.

      We are also seeing evidence of girls staying away from school due to their period where schools have implemented the Self-ID regime and girls being shamed into not objecting to using mixed facilities. It took us 100 years to get the vote-now we are going backwards.

      My understanding is that we are all equal, but not anymore it seems, as women are being told we should give up some of our rights & personal safety to men because a tiny proportion say we must. That isn’t equality-that is disadvantaging females & instilling fear where it shouldn’t be.

      Rant over ….. (for now)& I shan’t be going to SNP Conference either -I might get chucked out.

    94. cynicalHighlander says:

      I won’t be voting for any party promoting this gender bender nonsense so it’ll be none of the above for me.

    95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “LGBT? LGB I understand, that’s about sexual preference in partners. Seems straight (no pun intended) forward.

      Why the T? It was tagged on at some point. T has absolutely nothing to do with who you are attracted to, who you fancy. It has to do with how you see yourself.”

      It was tagged on when equal marriage became law in Scotland, England and Wales, because as soon as equal marriage was law the likes of Stonewall had no real reason to exist. LGB equality had in every meaningful legal sense been achieved. But Stonewall is a multi-million pound organisation with some highly-paid executives and they needed a new cause.

    96. Ghillie says:

      Stuart, why do you presume that folk who chose ‘Neutral’ to describe their feelings on this subject are largely unaware of the subject?

      I read that you link it to the ‘don’t know’ numbers but I don’t think that is a fair analysis.

      I AM aware of the various arguments and concerns and yet I am still perplexed by it all.

      I do sincerely expect this sensitive subject to be thoroughly researched, discussed and debated, with all voices heard before a final good practice comes out of this.

      Bearing in mind that something that does not work well can be modified.

    97. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “STuart, you conflate neutrality with ignorance. My position is: FFS I don’t want to take sides in a battle which will work out badly for everyone, and I suspect a lot of unpolarised people mightr feel the same.”

      If you don’t give a shit about women, that’s a position you’re entitled to take.

    98. cynicalHighlander says:

      OT where have all the avatars gone as I’m not seeing any?

    99. Jim McIntosh says:

      Gary – “I’m not sure what the demands are”.

      Perhaps it would have been sensible to find that out before commenting on a thread specifically about that issue.

      Hint: The question asked in the poll is a fair representation of those ‘demands’.

    100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “A possible reason that article was removed is this “and raised the risk of rejected applicants taking legal action”

      The paper’s legal dept said to get rid.”

      Don’t be daft. There’s no possible danger for a newspaper in reporting the fact that someone said that about the SNP’s vetting process.

    101. mogabee says:

      Thank you Stu and Daisy and some others for your considered posts on a subject which until relatively recently I hadn’t thought much of, and indeed skimmed over posts on social media discussions.

      I have stated that if even ONE FEMALE be that a woman or a child could be affected by this change then it should not go ahead.

      I have a daughter and will fight for her right to be safe and damn those saying this should not be discussed…

    102. dadsarmy says:

      @Lollysmum “ I shan’t be going to SNP Conference either -I might get chucked out.

      You’re the very person who SHOULD be going, and if you get chucked out – good. Stand outside with a banner “I was chucked out because I asked for my rights as a woman to be respected”.

      Anyway, I wasn’t going to get involved in this issue.

    103. cynicalHighlander says:

      Avatar pics have suddenly appeared weird.

    104. Tackety Beets says:

      Regulars will know my youngest declared herself as “Demi gender” whilst still at primary school, she is now in 5th year & seams to be coping, at least on the outside. As an older dad it will always be a difficult subject.
      Like some above I have avoided all this gender ID whether on FB, Twitter etc I have tended to scroll past.

      I tend to view it as others above if they have “meat an 2 veg” they are male. I don’t care how they dress etc but until it’s chop chop my mind struggles to accept this as anything other than male.

      I had an experience some 5 or 6 years ago. A client Mr ##### who had occasionally dressed kinda more woman like ( jeezo what am I permitted to say these days? ) arrived & required some help with a project. The staff member who was fairly new in our business was struggling to understand so I duly stepped in to assist. Handing an item to my new staff member I said “I think this may be what he wants”

      A few hours later 2 policemen arrive with the view to arresting me for discrimination or some bollocks, excuse the punnnnn.
      They were good cop bad cop, I stood my ground insisting “He has” “there you go again it’s SHE” one cop interjects. I stood my ground insisting if Mr ##### was no longer Mr ##### and has not imparted this information to me how do I know? I asked them do you know how many guys wear dresses? & how many are which gender? I had to argue very hard as they were clearly wanting to charge me, almost to appease or make an example of me. At one point they insisted the matter would be recorded & would be used in court should there be any other incident. “What do you record, I couldn’t tell if a man in a dress had had his bits off, and his false boobs were actually real cos this particular guy take tablets” “ I assume you guys can direct me to how anyone can tell when they have had an OP or whatever? “
      To this day I do not know if Mr##### has actually had operations or merely changed his name to a woman’s name?
      I can assure you it was not a pleasant experience with the police.
      I finally made my lengthy case & they left with no room to argue, I had eventually become very assertive with my debate.
      I took a few days to get over it & even now it annoys me that they wasted all that time on a simple matter.
      If Mr ##### had simply said. “Excuse me but I am not Known as Sandy, I am actually Sandra #####”
      I would have naturally made my apologies.

      I write above story to highlight another angle that can land on any of us, very innocently.
      It’s easy with hindsight to suggest how anyone handles these “outta the blue” situations.
      Rightly or wrongly, I am still astonished, but glad it didn’t go further, altho’ my day in court may have had consequences, who knows.
      As per my first para, I am sympathetic to the gender issue but……

    105. Ottomanboi says:

      Currently in Tunisia, a country where people can tell the difference between male and female.
      God help Scotland if these fairy cakes get their way…..indi down the pan?
      They are subversives, unionist subversives.

    106. dadsarmy says:

      Don’t be daft. There’s no possible danger for a newspaper in reporting the fact that someone said that about the SNP’s vetting process.

      Most of the article isn’t visible from archive,org – what is in the rest of the article after this:

      and raised the risk of rejected applicants taking legal action“?

      I’ve commented on articles not about this issue in the Herald (and Grun) that have been pulled, and not just the comments. All it needs is for a solicitor to mutter about “prejudice our case you’ll be held responsible”, basically I guess.

    107. Paul says:

      What a load of nonsense are you a fifth columnist? all you seem to do now is attack the only vehicle that can deliver Independence. How many trans gender people are there? You are making a song and dance out of nothing. The majority of people couldn’t care Two hoots on this matter.

    108. Joannie says:

      @Jules- almost all the resources and efforts of self styled trans rights activists are being used to push the dogma that transwomen are women, any man who self declares as trans is trans, and being trans should give a male an automatic all access areas pass to female only spaces. It’s misogyny, simple as.

    109. Liz g says:

      This movement may think that they have this all sorted because of Indy but it only looks that way.
      The Women who are against this absolutely will not stop and these clowns should note that in an Independent Scotland with our government within slapping distance…. This will be reversed…. We can use all those tactics too….
      And we understand that our best chance of reversing any of this social engineering is an independent Scotland.

      Progress can’t be stopped and most people are done with authority trying to make us believe ridiculous things.
      Trans Woman are Not women and scientifically demonstrably not.
      Children learn most at their mother’s knee so they can put as many posters as they like in our schools and have as much class time as they like proclaiming that men in a dress are actually women…… Most mother’s I’d say will correct that nonsense pretty quickly…. This social engineering won’t last…. And the SNP won’t last much beyond the Yes vote if they don’t or won’t understand that when this issue goes mainstream they are on the wrong side ….

    110. MaggieC says:

      Stuart Thanks for posting this , As a woman and Snp member I’m at the point of giving up my membership if any of these “ YSI or Out for Indy “ groups get any more influence on the party . As no way do I want to share a public toilet or protected safe space with any male , we’ve had to fight for too long in society to have our rights respected . This lot pushing for this need pulled in by the scruff of the neck and put in their place by the ordinary members as they will lose votes for the Snp

      At the moment all other opposition parties are keeping quiet just now about this but come an election they’ll use it like “ a ton of bricks “ to hit the Snp with .

      Link to GRA for anyone who’s not read it yet –

      https://consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/

      And this from the fact sheet which shows it only affects about 25 people a year getting a gender recognition certificate –

      https://consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/supporting_documents/Gender%20Recognition%20Factsheet.docx

      I’m not giving up my women’s rights and freedoms for 25 people.

    111. Ken500 says:

      Will people stop being so bigoted and offensive. There is room on Earth for everyone. Some people are born different from the norm. An extremely small minority but they still must be catered firvand considered.

      The place where women are most safe statistically are mixed changing rooms and prison (unfortunately because most should not be there).

      Mixed changing rooms are safe for women and allow more women (people) to access the facilities. It allows more women (people) to participate in the activities. Totally safely.

      The place where women are most unsafe is in their own space. Their own homes. More women are attacked and murdered in their own home than anywhere else. Attack by their family members and ‘friends’. That is where most attacks take place. The common denominator is that most attackers are men. Men who attack other men more frequently.

      People who wish to self ID are gentle people who would not hurt a fly. They suffer and anxiety and are anxious. They do not feel they fit the norm. They are not comfortable in their own skin. They can self harm and commit suicide. For pity sake. Stop the witch hunt and show a bit of compassion.

      Some people are born with a body that does not fit the norm. Some women are born without a womb. They need a surrogate. They are still women.

      Maybe surgery should be delayed until later 18/21. If possible. To be sure.

    112. Morag says:

      If this was happening at the same time as the SNP was going full steam ahead to achieve independence I’s still be mad as hell, but at least there would be something to hold on to. That they’re doing this while at the same time kicking indyref2 as far into the long grass as they possibly can, is insupportable.

    113. Tony Hay says:

      I dont often comment as generally speaking I dont feel I have many original thoughts on the particular topic the rev has raised but this one has got my dander up. It’s almost as if within sight of the winning line we are trying to screw it up.
      I have a party card but it’s only indy atm that’s important to me. The right on brigade and the gammon must put these side issues away until the battle is won . Please dont let us do the unionists job for them,they seek to divide us. Indy first,second and third, party not so much.

    114. Lollysmum says:

      One thing I forgot to say above-I don’t have a problem with real trans people who have actively done something about it-counselling, hormone treatments, surgery etc.

      It’s the very small minority who post themselves on Twitter because they’ve made it into a women’s toilets & driven the occupants out under threat of violence just because they can. It’s just point scoring & bragging rights (that they’ve been able to gain access to safe spaces) on Twitter- there’s a few posting photos most days.

    115. defo says:

      I’ll save the dear leader the trouble…
      Fuck right off Ken, you ken fuck all about this.

      Is Kool aid on tap this weekend?

    116. shug says:

      What is known about the people pushing this non topic.

      Can it be confirmed they are not plants designing a split for Unionists – or am I being paranoid??

      Anyone campaigning against Joanna Cherry should be booted out the party immediately

    117. Joannie says:

      @Ken500 – transwomen have exactly the same patterns of violence and criminality as the general male population. Transwomen are just as likely to beat, rape and murder women as men are generally

    118. frogesque says:

      Gender to me is simple. He, She or it.

      Sex is either Male, Female or hemaphrodite.

      Sexuality can be whatever turn you on so long as its legal and between consenting adults.

      Fair is not allowing female sports to allow an ‘It’ to fold a woman like a deckchair.

      Anyone doesn’t like that? Fucking well sue me!

    119. Daisy Walker, sorry that was not my intention, as you can see from my Women’s Changing Room access anecdote.
      You are pushing against and open door,
      I’d imagine that 99% of Scots are on your side.
      Our women need protected from fetishists and quite frankly perverts.
      If I had a daughter of School age right now, and they introduced Unisex toilets, I’d be taking her out of that school.
      When we live in the days when I as a white male heterosexual father and pensioner can be put in jail for expressing the views above, then the world really has gone mad.
      The ‘storm in a tea cup’ to which I refer is the twitter mob who are miniscule in relation to the population in Scotland.
      I have no doubt at all that the Brit Nat Black Ops are behind much of this ‘poor me’ ‘I’m different’ nonsense.
      There are perfectly adequate HR and Equal Opps laws protecting all of our citizens.
      They do not extend to a man in a skirt getting his willie out in public in a laughingly dubbed ‘mixed sex toilet’.
      I await Scotland’s Boys in Blue smashing down my door and hauling my 72 year old ass off to jail.
      I apologise profusely for the impression I may have conveyed.
      But I’ve had enough of this toss, deliberately designed to undermine the Independence movement.
      Je suis delsole, Cherie.(Sexist?)
      I repeat, if a man in a dress attempts to enter a changing area where my wife is trying on a dress, I will stop him in his tracks.

    120. Daisy Walker says:

      Thanks Joannie,

      For those interested the link Capella has posted s very well researched/evidenced.

      I have every compassion for those born with the medical condition – gender/body issues.

      Currently the GRA allows 2 years for full transition – including therapy/counselling prior to surgery, including the person living as their gender of choice. I think this is wise.

      The question that never gets answered is, ‘what rights are transgenders currently not getting?’

      And if the answer to that (and it would appear it is a large part) is the right to access women’s prisons, women’s refuges, women’s changing rooms, women’s sports, scholarships, woman specific jobs, then Huston we have a problem.

      Here’s a question – if a male Police Officer transgenders to female – and maybe even identifies as lesbian – should they be allowed to strip search female prisoners in the course of their duty?

      And if the custody sergeant on duty decides to err on the side of discretion on that one, and brings in another female (non transgender) officer to carry out the strip search – has the first (transgender) officer been discriminated against?

      And if the prisoner decides that the transgender person in front of them looks like a man dressed up as a woman, and likely to get a sexual kick out of strip searching them, if that prisoner declines – are they committing a hate crime? are they displaying transphobe hate? What if, in what is already a stress filled situation, they decide they have nothing to lose and kick off.

      Would their lawyer decline to voice their reasons for doing so, because to ‘out’ or ‘dead name’ someone who has undergone transgender is considered hate crime?

      Judges have a duty to interpret the law – AS WRITTEN – and not as they might wish it to be. Even if what is written is poorly written and badly thought out.

      Stonewall have issued guidance to organisations. It seeks to advice on what terms of language are acceptable and what are now considered insulting, hurtful, or illegal.

      ‘biological sex’ is one term that is no longer allowed! I kid you not.

      ‘homosexual’ is on the no longer allowed list, because it has been used as a label to discriminate against men in the past.

      ‘lesbian’ is allowed – no issues – because no woman – ever – has had that word used against them for ill.

      I am not making this up. But when it comes to the bit that in order to win a point of view, words themselves are to be barred, particularly words with scientific meaning – then it is all getting on very dodgy ground.

      And in addition to barred words – violence, threats of violence, derogatory terms, twitter accounts shut down.

      Stepping back from this a second, and thinking tactics by the Brit Nats – number 1 is always divide and conquor.

      To be independent is normal, cuts across all genders, all age groups, all incomes, all religions. How best to divide and conquer than to go for the group that always gets landed the first and the last kick – women. And what better ally to provide the ammo than Big Pharma – with their eyes on our NHS prize.

    121. msdidi says:

      Capella says:
      10 October, 2019 at 1:33 pm
      These posts are up for election at the SNP Conference. Let’s see how much support there is for the advocates of SElf ID. However, I would guess that most ordinary members don’t know anything about this issue – YET. Neither did I until a few months ago.
      Everything comes down to votes. It’s the votes that count and it’s also who counts the votes that counts.

      I have been an SNP voter at every election since I was 18 (1973) but only became a member after Sept 2014. I am going to conference in Aberdeen as a delegate for my branch. How on earth are you supposed to know which of the candidates for positions are advocates for or against self ID? Or even possibly participating in this “entryism” plot! The biographies listed are little/no help on that score.

    122. Mist001 says:

      Is it possible that Sturgeon and the hierarchy of the SNP are reluctant to do or say anything about this situation due to a desire just to ‘keep the peace’? The SNP do like to present itself as a harmonious party and any splits are downplayed or ignored rather than being addressed as they arise. This of course, gives the placated parties more confidence to press ahead with their agendas where eventually it gets to the stage that it’s at now, where allegedly they’re bragging about unseating certain MSPs.

      Poor leadership again from Sturgeon.

    123. SilverDarling says:

      @Ken500

      The superficial grasp you have on this issue and the other pseudo medical and scientific stuff you come out with makes me really wary of you.

      This is NOT about lack of empathy or not recognising Trans existence it is about the erosion of women’s rights by those who would seek to abuse a flawed piece of legislation.

    124. Lollysmum says:

      Ken 500
      You clearly don’t have a clue. We aren’t talking about folks who are truly trans & have done something about it.

      I do hope you don’t have any female relatives/friends etc who are affected by this. Are you going to tell them they are bigoted too?

    125. galamcennalath says:

      Lollysmum says:

      I don’t have a problem with real trans people who have actively done something about it-counselling, hormone treatments, surgery etc.

      Totally agree. I have enormous respect for their dedication and bravery over something they quite clearly wish. In my life time I’ve know two people who have actually made the transition. And, as far as I knew, successfully. I believe they were much happier people afterwards.

      very small minority who post themselves on Twitter because they’ve made it into a women’s toilets & driven the occupants out under threat of violence

      The thing which gets me about this type of person ( only read about, never met) is they appear to display all the worst aspects of male anti social behaviour! They seem to show aggression, anger, over assertiveness, and extreme misogyny in a typically unacceptable male way. Yet, they profess to aspire to womanly ways. Where is their alleged feminine side? That circle just doesn’t square. They probably also drive aggressively! Also, their sexual preference apparently remains for female partners. Hmmm.

    126. MaggieC says:

      Stuart,
      Totally off topic but I don’t know if you’ve seen this yet –

      https://news.sky.com/story/long-live-the-queen-of-corpulence-winner-of-viral-fat-bear-contest-revealed-11831258

    127. PS

      In three weeks’ time following the now inevitable a No Deal outcome, 184,000 of our neighbours, co workers, friends, lovers, and spouses will be classed as ‘Illegal aliens’ and ordered to leave this land Scotland to which they have done us the great honour to come, work, contribute to the economy, health, and well being of us Scots, merely because they are EU citizens.
      This is the crisis at the door.

      Not WAGS on the front page, not Boris Johnson’s pole dancing mate, not Prince Harry and his squeeze suing Dead Tree Scrolls while off on an all expenses paid jolly to some former warm Brit Empire colony, and certainly not this trans nonsense, upon which, this is my last feckin word.

    128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Paul @ 16:25,

      If it’s all “nonsense” as you claim, why are open threats now being issued to deselect excellent MPs like Joanna Cherry?

      Do pray tell…

    129. Bibbit says:

      I had to explain trans to my 85 year old Mum last week, and saying how transwomen can now play women in sports including rugby. That transwomen can demand they be allowed into women only areas including convicted rapists into women prisons and that lesbians (attracted only to women) are ‘haters’ if they can’t feel attraction towards a transwoman. That last one was quite hard.

      My mum, in the SNP all her life, was at first disbelieving then very angry that the SNP are supportive of transwomen and dismissive of womens’ hard won rights to women only spaces. I too cannot believe that this topic is gaining such traction within any sane organisation. I blame Nicola Sturgeon and her ‘woke’ inner circle. They will destroy the party if they don’t realise people (like my old mum), are as yet completely and utterly unaware of this runaway trans train hurtling down the line, but once women & girls are hurt, raped (or killed on a rugby pitch or unable to compete in any sports) their fury at the SNP for allowing this dismantling of womens’ rights will be catastrophic and hell mend them.

      I have no antipathy towards actual transwomen. Indeed there was a lovely young transwoman standing in front of me at the AUOB march last Saturday and my heart went out to her. They are so very brave in this world but their rights cannot trump womens’ rights and my rights to speak up for women and girls won’t be silenced by some trans zealots, wherever and whoever they are.

    130. john dickson says:

      To quote my old Dad (RIP), a spade is a spade not a shovel. To me it is simple, if you still have a penis you are still a man, for all you may dress in women’s clothing. equally the same if you have a vagina.Until you have gender reassignment surgery you are still the same gender you were born with. Self Id for this is ridiculous in such a way that I can decide I am the first minister or a star footballer just because I say so.

    131. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – I agree with your post but would just say – if Westminster cancels plans to reform the GRA but Holyrood presses on with it, then the only way for women to protect their rights is to vote for the Union. It’s as bad as that.

    132. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Jack Colliton

      Sorry I misunderstood your initial posting.

      @ Morag – agree – all the way.

      @ Ken500

      ‘Will people stop being so bigoted and offensive. There is room on Earth for everyone.’

      Agreed – and I certainly never meant anything I posted to be either bigoted or offensive.

      ‘The place where women are most safe statistically are mixed changing rooms’

      This is factually incorrect.

      Leisure pools often have mixed changing rooms, (which they do in order to save on costs of real estate in providing male and female versions); Where the cubicles have the 1′ gap at the bottom – which they do because the chemicals they mop the floors with – splash up and mark the plastic cubicle sides. Where there is this set up, there are regular reports to Police of indecent photographs being taken of women and children getting changed by persons (nearly always described as male) sneaking a camera phone under and taking a picture/video.

      Staff within such premises are very aware of the issue and do their best. CCTV helps ‘detect’ suspects, not prevent, and the perpetrators – some of whom are on the Registered Sex Offenders list, make sure not to visit the same town leisure pool too often, for that very reason.

      You may think that a 6 year old lassie would not, or should not, be upset by such activities – the reality is very different. Of course it not an ‘assault’ so your word ‘safe’ could still ‘technically’ be used.

      ‘and prison (unfortunately because most should not be there).’ Contrary to popular misconception – it is a very rare thing for a female to be thrown in jail at the first hurdle – many many criminal convictions, and alternative punishments, happen first.

      ‘The place where women are most unsafe is in their own space. Their own homes.’

      Now this is correct.

      ‘More women are attacked and murdered in their own home than anywhere else. Attack by their family members and ‘friends’.’

      Attacked by family members and ‘friends’????? Actually, if you dig into it – I think you’ll find the word your looking for is murdered by their partner/husband.

      Really can’t remember the last time I heard about a murder when a woman was killed by her 3rd cousin twice removed, her sister, her auntie Jean, her granny or her son.

      ‘The common denominator is that most attackers are men. Men who attack other men more frequently.’

      Men who attack other men more frequently???? – no, not factually correct on that one. Speak to anyone with any dealings on domestic abuse will tell you – it cuts across all the divides, economic, class, education, IQ, – it used to be called the hidden crime. So while some men are violent in and out the family home, others are not, but are just as lethal, and for those suffering from physical and mental abuse, from their partner (but not yet been murdered) it really can be that nice Dr Jones who you would never have guessed behaved that way.

      People who wish to self ID are gentle people who would not hurt a fly.

      Ian Hunter abducted, raped and murdered 2 little girls. He is now in prison for it, and self identifying as a woman with a view to being transferred to a woman prison. Sadly he isn’t the only example.

      ‘They can self harm and commit suicide.’

      Please read the link put up by Capella with the detailed and extremely well researched paper on this.

    133. One_Scot says:

      Have the DUP just been thrown under a bus?

    134. Capella says:

      @ msdidi – for advice on who to vote for and who is committed to protecting women’s rights, Joan McAlpine’s twitter is the most informative. She supports Collette Walker.

      https://twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1181664159982915584?s=20

      Nobody concerned with woke entryism will vote for Fiona Robertson or Rhiannon Spear, both of whom have tweeted unhelpful opinions IMO.
      Not sure about the others.

    135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tackety Beets @ 16:19,

      Prosecuting people for a pronoun? Jeez. Where are we going? (And that was some time ago at that.)

      Abraham Lincoln once wisely observed that “the best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly”. Seems that the trans radicals are doing their very best to prove the old frontier lawyer right.

    136. Liz g says:

      Ken 500 @ 4.31
      Where to even start wi you…..
      A Woman isn’t defined by a womb
      Trans Woman are Not all tortured gentle souls like in the movies…..
      Those two stereotypes you causally flung in to your call for people not to be offensive.
      ARE Offensive…..

      Are you at all worried about how Women are being offended in this?
      Our very self, something we didn’t choose but actually are,being reduced to a choice is offensive.
      Being indoctrinated to proclaimed that there’s a women in front of me when I know dam fine it’s a man.Is offensive.
      schools devaluing the role of a mother in the eye’s of her child.Is offensive.
      Embarrassing and compromising the dignity and body integrity of a child. Is offensive.
      Using the Law to achieve all of the above. Is offensive.
      So Ken if being offensive offends ye so! can women count on yer support to get this social engineering kicked to the kerb???

    137. susan says:

      No such things as transwomen and transmen. These labels just muddy the water of straightforward description and allow for the twisting of definitions. Transwomen are men who want to be women and transmen are women who want to be men. It’s a mental health issue, sex is immutable and defined at conception.

    138. John Jones says:

      Always uses women’s toilets?
      Must be a nutcase, the public toilets I see when I’m out the ladies ones are queued out the door , why would any man stand in a big queue just to prove a point. Rubbish.

    139. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 17:25:

      Not sure about the others.

      But isn’t that how entryism works? By stealth, and making people afraid to speak up?

    140. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 5.17
      I agree it’s As bad an issue as that Capella but would caution that …. It seem to be a devolved matter and this is not just a Scottish issue it’s going on all across western democracies and if Westminster put it to one side it will only be temporarily.
      I was speaking more about if Holyrood passed it our best chance of repeal is in an Independent Scotland!
      If Westminster do a deal with the U.S.there’s no way they would be allowed to keep it out of legislation.
      There’s too much of Big Pharma behind this….

    141. Jock Tamson says:

      Ken 500 says:
      The place where women are most safe statistically are mixed changing rooms and prison (unfortunately because most should not be there)
      People who wish to self ID are gentle people who would not hurt a fly.

      Following this logic is Ken 500 is suggesting a Self ID Transwoman be placed in a female prison wing?

    142. Republicofscotland says:

      “One_Scot says:”

      “Have the DUP just been thrown under a bus?”

      According to this they’ve changed their tune on NI remaining in one form or another in the Single Market.

      https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/owen-polley-boris-johnson-and-dup-have-put-ni-s-status-in-uk-up-for-negotiation-1-9100176

    143. SilverDarling says:

      I remember when the big worry about entryism with the surge in membership of the SNP was the hard left. Little did they know what was ahead. And still some of the old diehards do not see what is happening under their noses.

      The direction of the party is being diverted and subverted. Like the Rev says a great bloated woke cuckoo wearing an SNP lanyard is sitting in its midst sucking all the life and oxygen out of the Independence movement.

    144. twathater says:

      To ALL the women on this site and their relatives who support them I apologise for the ( it disnae affect me so I don’t give a shite males ) I as a male have followed this discussion on twatter and other places and I have got to say the absolute VENOM and OPEN threats against women who are standing against this legislation is abysmal and harrowing

      I recently sent 36 emails to SNP MSP’S including screenshots of VILE and ABUSIVE messages on twatter directed at women against this lunacy including Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry from people associated with the SNP some in official positions and I have not received a single solitary response from any of them

      I would advise any of the don’t give a shit brigade to educate themselves re this legislation and then ask themselves , if you were a female and your rights were being taken from you would you look kindly on the government and politicians trashing your hard won rights and kowtowing to a group of self serving narcissists , and would you trust these politicians enough to give them your VOTE

      50% female vote NEEDED DESPERATELY FOR INDEPENDENCE

    145. Cubby says:

      The Buckaroo Principle.

    146. Capella says:

      Robert J. Sutherland 5:32 pm
      Capella @ 17:25:
      Not sure about the others.
      But isn’t that how entryism works? By stealth, and making people afraid to speak up?

      I rely on people whose opinions I trust. Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry are reliable. But I don’t spend all day keeping track of every fallen sparrow. Stu does a pretty good job of that which is what makes this site and his twitter account so reliable.

      I also link to some people and organisations whose views I agree with on twitter. Anybody with an interest in politics would find a wealth of information by following interesting people and organisations on twitter. You don’t have to tweet yourself.

    147. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert J.Sutherland 5:32pm

      Folk are conned into doing all sorts of things by stealth, but often not as stealthy as the stealthy folk think they’re being, then they’re pressured by the stealthy folk if they look like doing something dangerous like thinking for themselves, that’s not allowed must keep the hammer down

      Scientologists Mooneys Group thinkers Religious extremists
      They all employ the same method

      America is the place for mass hysteria manipulation, they’ve got tons of groups making fortunes with their own TV stations and everything, one group even got people to vote for a Chimp in the 70s

      If Cliff Richard stood for parliament tomorrow on a promise to bring back God some folk would definitely believe it vote for him

    148. red sunset says:

      @twathater 5.45pm

      Not intending to take away from the thrust of your post, but –
      If you sent an email to an MSP’s parliamentary email address, and if you’re not a constituent – which you wouldn’t be in at least 35 cases – then they’re not going to deal with you. As well as which, almost certainly the message would be received initially by a staff member.

      If you’re emailing an MSP as a party matter, you need to find out a personal email address for each MSP.

    149. Joannie says:

      I’m heartened to see that most of the male posters here seem to get it.

      Not sure why my previous comment is still awaiting moderation? All I did was point out to Ken500 that transwomen have the same rate of violent crimes as the general male population.

    150. Jock Tamson says:

      Agree twathater but guess neither have the many SNP MSPs a clue about this issue
      Most will think it’s a nice equality friendly and politically correct piece of legislation and take the slide rule approach without thinking through the unintended consequences this dreadful bill would bring.
      Thankfully we still have many MSPs and party members with bottle and prepared to speak up for themselves.

    151. Dan says:

      I recall simpler times when inny and outy simply referred to your belly button, and not whether you are sporting an internal or external vagina or penis.

      One wonders if this concept was developed behind the scenes by environmentalists. It seems like an ideal lifestyle choice gullable woke folk can buy into that will ultimately kerb population growth.
      In years to come studies will seek to find out just what happened to all the woke folk in the first quarter of the 3rd millennium.

      I can however confirm that it is temporarily possible to change ones sexual organs.
      Anyone male who doubts this should take up loony dooking and will find that after 15 minutes in the Scottish seas without a wetsuit, you will be cock ‘n bawless.

    152. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – I don’t think this is a devolved issue. It was passed by Westminster in 2004 after starting out in the HoL because some Lord wanted to change sex and stay married. The English bishops in the HoL refused to sanction same sex marriage. So they concocted the GRA to say that people can change sex – which is a scientific lunacy. (But they exempted primogeniture because that upsets eldest sons inheriting the lordships!)

      Then it was adopted by Holyrood through a Sewell Convention. Labour were in office in Westminster and in Holyrood at the time. Later, a Same Sex marriage act was introduced which removes any need for the GRA. It should be repealed, not extended.

      There is absolutely no need for the SNP to get itself tangled up by this bad legislation. Sooner or later they will have to abandon it. I hope we don’t have to wait for the inevitable court cases to start rolling in before they see sense.

      Sorry I don’t have links for all the above assertions ATM. May have time later.

    153. MaggieC says:

      Twathater @ 5.45pm
      Thank you for this .

    154. Capella says:

      @ Joannie – if you have included a banned word like r*pe then your post won’t publish. Check also parts of words such as gr*pevine.

    155. Capella says:

      I see Kezia Dugdale has quit Scottish Labour?

      https://twitter.com/ConnorGillies/status/1182327354724638720?s=20

    156. Joannie says:

      Capella, yes that must be the reason. I responded to Ken’s rather silly “wouldn’t hurt a fly” description with reference to the crime statistics which show that transwomen are just as likely to commit the crime that is a banned word as the general male population.

    157. Dan says:

      Joannie says: at 5:59 pm

      “I’m heartened to see that most of the male posters here seem to get it.

      Hi Joannie (and any new folks reading in). Aspects of this subject have been discussed on Wings previously.
      The following link is to an article and comments trail that has further reading with various links and views.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/one-week-in-the-war-on-women/

    158. Essexexile says:

      Those wondering about Unionist plants in the SNP. I’m looking at the picture of Shirley-Anne Somerville at the top of this article.

      Can anyone tell me for certain that’s not Michael Gove?

    159. Lenny Hartley says:

      Kezia no longer member of northern branch office, voted for another party in euro elections!

    160. Helen Yates says:

      Some may want to convince themselves that this issue isn’t that important but we will all find out just how important it is as soon as Indyref2 is called, the opposition will wait till that time then they will throw everything about this policy at the SNP and if you don’t think it will affect how people vote maybe you should try discussing it with friends and family as I have done, not many know about it or understand the problems associated with it but once you explain it and how this will affect women rights I can assure you this will be the ruin of the party, those within the party who are pushing this aggressively Shirley Anne Summerville being one of this so far small group must either be removed or brought to heel and quickly, this policy must be shelved until a full and open debate can be undertaken and preferably after Independence is won, should we ever get that far, that’s an argument for another day. at the end of the day the party continues with this at their peril. be assured the opposition are wringing their hands just now.

    161. Tackety Beets says:

      RJS @ 5.26pm

      Good point. Hadn’t thought of that angle.
      I was just fizzin’ that my integrity was being challenged without any basis that I could understand. To say I was very assertive with the 2 cops is an understatement.
      God help anyone who finds themselves in a similar situation.

    162. msdidi says:

      Thank you Capella. I never think to look at twitter accounts although I do go to the Revs from his link here sometimes.

    163. Allan Watson says:

      Stu you have obviously have a bee in your bunnet about this issue and done a fair bit of research on the said subject.
      To help me (and others) understand the scale of the situation the population of Scotland is approx. 5.5 million. Of this how many, from your research can you confirm -:

      A. How many are directly effected ie had surgery

      b. How many are effected but not had surgery

    164. Old Pete says:

      Well my worst fears confirmed Nicola has no plan B for Independence, we can only have a referendum if the English government allow it. I have voted SNP all my life as I believe in my country being capable to go it alone, however after today can a vote for the SNP be a vote to gain Independence ? Only apparently if the London government say ” yes on you go we are happy to lose your wealth and nuclear base, happy to see you go ” Nicola truly believes that the English overlords will risk losing their “golden goose” and grant us a path to Independence ? Really ?
      I have been worried for some time that we would be let down by the leadership, sadly it’s even worse than I thought possibly.

    165. Clapper57 says:

      To anybody who thinks that there are those in the independence movement who are simply making this an ‘issue’ as a way of deflecting away from independence itself and thus being used as weapon to attack the SNP then think on.

      If the SNP embraces self ID and the creation of non gender critical areas being generated as a workable and feasible proposal where self ID individuals can have open access to all female areas ,which potentially could result in serious well publicised incidents occurring, then the blame will not be solely laid at the doorstep of the perpetrator but will also , by our wonderful MSM , be apportioned to the SNP….who would ultimately be portrayed as the villains who paved the way for these men to have the opportunity to abuse women….as this will be promoted as an SNP initiative where the obvious potential serious consequences for women were not forseen and thus they, the SNP, were remiss in their allowing, via their support , this to occur.

      That aside, as a female member and voter of the SNP, I cannot understand why this misguided and frankly unnecessary proposal is even being considered.

      If you respect people’s choices to live the way that they choose to live then that is a human right…. however if that also means, as in this instance, in doing so you blatantly disrespect the same rights of others, i.e. women, then that is totally wrong, misguided, and as a voter and a woman, is not something I personally welcome or view as progressive.

      You cannot welcome the rights of some while in doing so simultaneously deny the rights of others. I have no problem what people choose to self identify as….. but I do have a problem if they insist that it should allow them no boundaries to where they are able to self identify in …….such as former safe areas for women who would feel the intrusion of men as a situation where they, as women , feel uncomfortable , violated and no longer safe in.

      If this was imposed by any other political party would we not all be decrying this ……this is totally a separate issue from Independence …..the objection to this is NOT in any way a deliberate distraction with the sole intention of harming the SNP….because trust me if they insist on proceeding with this then it will be an act of self harm that they inflict upon themselves.

      As to those individuals who are both openly and subversively active in their quest to oust those within the SNP who do not publicly embrace or support their sole agenda then perhaps it is time that we, as women and indeed men too, who are members of the SNP reminded them that the independence movement is a indeed a broad church that also exists outwith the SNP and the objective of that movement is to achieve Independence for Scotland.

      More importantly it is to see, via an independent Scotland, a fairer society that does not, through government policies , result in one part of that society being unfairly treated and disregarded.

      If the SNP uphold and allow these people and their opinions to openly ride roughshod and publicly condemn party members that they out as gender critical women within the party, then they are wandering into a dangerous and perhaps irreversible territory that promotes and welcomes questionable and damaging causes while alienating others who strongly object with just cause….this will result in serious damage to the ultimate cause of Independence. and indeed to their, the SNP, vote .

      I can see no positives for the SNP being held to ransom by a minority of people with but a sole objective where they, who self ID, insist that objective must be respected and implemented as their right while they themselves are happily ignoring the rights of those who will be most affected should this proposal be implemented …..i.e. women who will lose the former right they had to access areas that were formerly exclusive to them.

      So If some within the SNP willingly allow self ID individuals to infiltrate the party and thus try to dominate and dictate terms ,via their sole agenda, then they are adopting a tunnel vision mentality which will be seen by many as a vision most definitely not shared by the majority.

      I fear that irrespective of all of the kamikaze policies of the Tories that this could be viewed as one of the SNP’s ‘ Haud my beer’ moments….not exclusively though….so a consultation to ALL people affected by this is needed and not a carte blanche approach by some short sighted SNP individuals who are currently basking in the faux glory hero moment for an unworthy and ill thought out cause with dire consequences for the SNP that will reverberate long after those individuals with a self ID cause decide to choose another political party as their party of choice in the voting booth…..and then the beat goes on…where it becomes another party’s Achilles heel.

      I feel a ‘Not in my name’ moment that will endure if they, the SNP, persist nay insist in endorsing this.

    166. cassandra says:

      I warned everyone about this.

    167. Dr Jim says:

      The FM on BBC Reporting Scotland just confirmed there is no plan B because plan A is the right one and a referendum will be held in the Autumn of 2020 because she wants to make it Internationally accepted and recognised and in particular by the EU which fits in with the time scale Michael Russell said a couple of weeks ago to a Holyrood committee, The FM added to her statement she has never been surer of winning Independece than she is at this moment

      Squirmy slimy little slug that Michael Gove is he misrepresnted the character of Mike Russell on the BBC by saying *Mike will gnash his teeth in public but behind closed doors he’s a pragmatic man and the Scottish government needs to pull its socks up*

      Mike Russell immediately tweeted a less than complimentary reply indicating that a no deal Brexit that Englands own chief medical officer said would result in deaths is a tad more important than sock pulling

      Oh and give Kezia Dugdale a month, like Alex Salmond said, *Kezia could make a good politician but not as long as she’s in the Labour party* wouldn’t surprise many of us I reckon, whether she makes it as anything more than a member wouldn’t surprise me either, she’s never appeared to be powered by duracell, more the pound shop batteries

      Like Bisto it’s all getting thicker

    168. Clapper57 says:

      @ twathater @ 5.45pm

      Thank you for the excellent comment you made.

      Have a lovely evening

    169. ALANM says:

      I don’t mind admitting that I’m shocked by this particular poll result. I’d never have guessed that so many females have no objection to sharing their toilets changing rooms and even their communal showers with members of the opposite sex. Pity the SNP wasn’t in charge when I was at school.

    170. Still Positive says:

      SNP member and totally against self ID. Mainly because I have 6 grand-daughters. The oldest is 20, the rest are 10 and under. Also I would be appalled if my 2 grandsons were in favour. One will be 14 next week and the other is 6 with 2 sisters.

    171. Mist001 says:

      @ Dr Jim

      That’s what I’ve been saying all along, the referendum is supposed to be held in 2020 but for some reason, most people think it’s 2021.

      You watch, when talk here returns to the referendum, most people will say 2021.

    172. Republicofscotland says:

      Without a Plan B, we’ll wait forever and a day for Westminster to sanction a second indyref.

      Also this scenario of Brexit has me worried.

      We somehow stay in the EU, which the SNP are fighting vigorously for, then come next year and the FM somehow miraculously obtains permission from Westminster to hold a second indyref, won’t the whole unionist machine use the exact same reasons to say if you leave the EU you’ll be in dire straits etc etc etc, as we are saying right now.

      No we need a Plan B, a plan we can implement soon after Brexit is decided, and not when Westminster says so.

    173. starlaw says:

      I noticed Nicola never spoke about gaining a section 30 order, she spoke of gaining a result that European and other countries would respect.

    174. Morag says:

      Gender to me is simple. He, She or it.

      Sex is either Male, Female or hemaphrodite.

      Sexuality can be whatever turn you on so long as its legal and between consenting adults.

      Fair is not allowing female sports to allow an ‘It’ to fold a woman like a deckchair.

      Anyone doesn’t like that? Fucking well sue me!

      I’m not going to sue you but I am going to correct you.

      Gender is a woolly and essentially meaningless concept that describes the social norms male or female people generally adhere to or are expected to adhere to. They change with time and very few people conform to them in every way. The multitude of made-up “gender identities” gaining prominence is so ridiculous that really we have to say gender is just personality and there are about 7.7 billion of them and counting.

      There are only two sexes, male and female. There are only two types of gametes and only two possible developmental paths for a foetus to take. The path taken is determined by the genetics of the foetus. There is no such thing as a human hermaphrodite. There are people with disorders of sexual development but they are also either male or female and in most cases even of DSDs there is no doubt whatsoever which a person is.

      People with DSDs (sometimes called intersex but absolutely never hermaphrodite) get very very upset when people (like the trans lobby) talk about them as if they’re neither male nor female, or some sort of half-way house. That’s not true.

      Trans people are overwhelmingly genetically and phenotypically normal males or females and the issue of people with DSDs is irrelevant. And the people with DSDs say they are sick and tired of having their medical problems weaponised by the trans lobby.

    175. Gfaetheblock says:

      Quite an odd polling question, as it feel biased towards an unfavourable response by presenting the against argument in the proposition , but does not presenting any points for the proposition. I also don’t buy the neutral = don’t know arguement, correlation does not mean causation after all. So a leading question on a complex topic only got 38% against doesn’t sound devastating for the SNP. The extremity of the views is notable though, dangerous political ground for any party.

      More interesting to me is to see how folk are aligning to the debate. Is there a sense that the Sturgeonistas are pro ID, gradualist on indyref2 whilst Salmondistas like McAlpine and Cherry are anti self ID but are out leading the line at AUOB? Cherry for leader in 2020 would be my call, post looming court action.

    176. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Quite an odd polling question, as it feel biased towards an unfavourable response”

      Sigh. As always, I checked the question with Panelbase in advance. They had no problems with it, and they always tell me if they think a question is iffy. It’s a statement of the facts.

    177. Morag says:

      One thing I forgot to say above-I don’t have a problem with real trans people who have actively done something about it-counselling, hormone treatments, surgery etc.

      A lot of people say this and I know what you mean, but it’s fudging the issue. Being trans isn’t a good-conduct prize. You can’t do the “no true Scotsman” thing and say that any transwoman who is obnoxious or indeed predatory isn’t “really” trans. They may be faking it to get close to vulnerable women or girls but the chances are they aren’t. Unpleasant people can transition too.

      In particular autogynaephilic men get off on the idea of being women and “performing” womanhood, and these men are often extremely problematic. Google Jonathan Yaniv. Their “trans” identity isn’t an act though.

      So very few transwomen actually have sex reassignment surgery. Most of the luvvies you see in the mother-of-the-bride dresses and high heels and bad makeup are intact. Some of these men are harmless enough, some are not. They’re not faking it though, it’s part of the pathology, the mental health issue.

      There may be a case to be made for distinguishing between transwomen who have had their sex organs removed and those who haven’t, but then again how do you tell the difference without asking them to expose themselves? So it’s not that easy.

    178. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The place where women are most safe statistically are mixed changing rooms and prison”

      Okay, that’s enough. That is complete shite, you’ve been told it’s shite, you’ve been given the links to the articles and studies proving comprehensively it’s shite, you KNOW it’s shite. Yet you’ve repeated it anyway.

      You can no longer be trusted to post unmoderated. I don’t have time to constantly police comments for lies.

    179. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Gfaetheblock @ 19:22,

      As opposed to your “Swansongistas”, who all agree with self-ID but are staying preciously schtum about it, just like the rest of the craven supportive BritNats.

    180. Clapper57 says:

      @ Gfaetheblock @ 7.22pm

      ” I also don’t buy the neutral = don’t know argument”

      Hi Gfaetheblock, neither do I.

      If people knew the potential pitfalls for the SNP in supporting this and were more aware of how this could impact a lot of women, both young and old, then perhaps they would have a more definite view on this. There are many things I could be neutral on but this is not one of them…it affects me to my detriment and is not an obscure or neutral issue…..perhaps with experiencing a negative consequence of this should it be implemented then hindsight for some of them may elicit some regret on their previous ‘neutral’ position…though I would like to hope that before that potentially happened they may think on a more deeper level…and see the bigger picture.

    181. Cubby says:

      A mans a man fur aw that.

    182. Cubby says:

      Helen Yates@6.36pm

      Excellent post. Only a paragraph break could have made it better.

    183. Cubby says:

      Clapper57@6.47pm

      One of your best posts and it makes me glad that you are back posting. Big on quantity but also high on quality. Great stuff.

    184. Mist001 says:

      Just a thought but what do true Scots self IDs wear under their kilts?

      Surely that puts the matter to bed, non?

    185. Ken500 says:

      Willie Young criticises Eva £80 a week. Budget £1Billion+

      Willie Young borrowed money on the stock exchange. Mortgaged the City and left it £1.2Billion in debt. Wasted public money.

    186. George Falconer says:

      I suggest all you “a man’s a man” types read some stuff then form an opinion.

      https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201811/why-is-transgender-identity-the-rise-among-teens

    187. crazycat says:

      @ msdidi at 6.37

      Denise Findlay is also worth voting for.

      She’s standing for the Conduct Committee
      https://twitter.com/GraceBrodie/status/1180065124167630849

    188. Capella says:

      BTW the “international best practice” often quoted as a reason for reforming the GRA is a reference to the Yogyakarta Principles 2007. These were devised by the International Commission of Jurists. The ICJ was set up and funded by the CIA in the 1950s.

      The ICJ was initially partially funded by the Central Intelligence Agency through the American Fund for Free Jurists, but the CIA’s role was not known to most of the ICJ’s members. American founders like Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy conceived it as a counter to the International Association of Democratic Lawyers controlled by the Soviet Union. Ex-CIA officer Philip Agee considered that the ICJ was “set up and controlled by the CIA for propaganda operations.” The CIA funding became public in 1967, but the organization survived the revelations after a period of reform under Secretary General Sean MacBride, and through Ford Foundation funding.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Commission_of_Jurists#History

    189. awizgonny says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      10 October, 2019 at 4:08 pm
      “ ‘Neutral does not mean don’t know. That’s a highly unprofessional presumption’
      FFS. The article specifically addresses why it’s a reasonable conclusion to draw.”

      I did actually read it. And it’s not a reasonable conclusion at all. In fact, on re-reading it, it’s even more unreasonable than I first thought. You equate “neutral” with being “still essentially unaware of the subject”, by a crude rule of thumb of the figure being similar in proportion to “don’t know” responses on the subject, and by then presuming that a “Don’t Know” response in a poll means that the responders don’t know about the subject, when in fact a Don’t Know response can indicate indecision or ambivalence whilst being in full possession of the facts.
      This part of the poll, and your interpretation of it, is a psephological mess.

    190. Big Jock says:

      I am afraid the SNP are just scoring own goals at the moment. Nicola’s bloody mindedness over section 30. The transgender omni shambles. The provost and her knickers. Are they trying to fuck up independence?

    191. Armitage Shanks says:

      Surprisingly still the majority of EU countries where a Mental Health Diagnosis required to transition. Perhaps thats a safety net which shouldn’t be done away with so lightly.
      https://tgeu.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/MapA_TGEU2018_Online-1.pdf

    192. Capella says:

      BTW again – these principles have never been accepted by the United Nations:

      The Principles have never been accepted by the United Nations and the attempt to make gender identity and sexual orientation new categories of non-discrimination has been repeatedly rejected by the General Assembly, the UN Human Rights Council and other UN bodies. In July 2010, Vernor Muñoz, United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Education, presented to the United Nations General Assembly an interim report on the human right to comprehensive sexual education, in which he cited the Yogyakarta Principles as a Human Rights standard.[21] In the ensuing discussion, the majority of General Assembly Third Committee members recommended against adopting the principles.[22] The Representative of Malawi, speaking on behalf of all African States argued that the report:

      Reflected an attempt to introduce controversial notions and a disregard to the Code of Conduct for Special Procedures Mandate-holders as outlined in Human Rights Council resolution 8/4. She expressed alarm at the reinterpretation of existing human rights instruments, principles and concepts. The report also selectively quoted general comments and country-specific recommendations made by treaty bodies and propagated controversial and unrecognized principles, including the so-called Yogyakarta Principles, to justify his personal opinion.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogyakarta_Principles#United_Nations

    193. Terry callachan says:

      Off subject

      Watching football Scotland v Russia
      In Russia

      Scotland typically have the ball 15-20 yds from Russia’s goal and pass the ball back the way three or four passes and its back near their own 18yd line

      It’s a terrible way to play this idea that possession football is everything and you must always keep possession even it means playing the ball from the oppositions penalty box to your own penalty box

      The problem with this style of football is that you will likely make a bad pass or the opposition will intercept

      When you get in or around the oppositions box you have to get a shot on goal it’s essential no give or take on that because every time you don’t have a shot at goal it’s a goal opportunity missed

      Scotland have played this way for years now
      I remember the old commentary used to call it the “Italian” style of possession.
      So sad that Scotland are still playing this way
      They will not make any progress doing so

    194. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      George Falconer @ 20:04,

      Internet-induced cultish behaviour among the immature. Not as directly fatal as the anorexia fan club websites, though. Whew, what a relief.

    195. Bob Mack says:

      @Awizgonny,

      A ten point likert scale actua!ly does allow for interpretation. Some would argue Degrees of neutrality can be indeed counted as unsure or dont know whilst others can inter pret it as anything below five is a degree of negativity whilst above 5 is a degree of positivity. It de
      ends on who interprets the data. In any event 5 is the only neutral point

    196. Morag says:

      As regards the SNP internal elections the names I have as absolutely sound are

      Colette Walker
      Lynne Anderson
      Denise Findlay
      Mercy Kamanja
      Chris McEleny

      I also see Morag Sievewright on the list and I think she is OK and I can personally vouch for Heather Anderson.

      I have been sent copies of the candidate lists with the known poison ivy marked up, which may be more useful. If any delegate needs sight of this I’m not quite sure how to go about it but DM me on Twitter @DrMoragKerr.

    197. TJenny says:

      Terry callachan – that’s an allegory for SNP’s indy strategy, isn’t it?

    198. awizgonny says:

      @Bob Mack

      Neutral was the only option given, not shades of neutral. It’s pure guesswork to interpret it otherwise. In addition, it is simply wrong to presume that answering “Don’t Know” means not being aware of the facts. Like I said, a mess.

    199. Capella says:

      Thx Morag – will do.

    200. dadsarmy says:

      OT
      I have very little doubt that an S30 to the Scotland Act will be rushed through the Houses and Queen’s Assent as fast as the Benn Act was.

      Anyone remember how quick that was from the introduction of the Bill to the Queen’s “X” stuck on it?

    201. Terry callachan says:

      T Jenny , now now

    202. Terry callachan says:

      Scotland against Russia

      Scotland are like a school football team practicing defenders against attackers

      Scotland have ten defenders the whole game
      Frightened to lose so they have a game plan of don’t try and score try and keep possession for ninety minutes

      No team can do that so they lose every time

      Take a chance try and score put players forward and let the defence defend if they fail look for better defenders but don’t put the whole midfield in defence it never works

    203. Morag says:

      By the way, here is the latest version of the “who not to vote for” list. New names have been added.

      https://twitter.com/OutForIndy/status/1182018227532115971

    204. Morag says:

      Note that the gender benders have no qualms about publishing the names of their supporters for all to see, comfortable that nobody will harass them. Meanwhile names of gender-critical candidates are being passed around in secret for fear of reprisals. Colette Walker has already been targeted and is now afraid to attend Conference (she’s registered blind).

    205. Morag says:

      It is of course possible that some people have signed that OutForIndy document simply to signal their support for same-sex-attracted people. Joanna Cherry has signed it on that basis and also signed the Women’s Pledge. But I’ll be avoiding everyone on the rainbow list just in case.

    206. dadsarmy says:

      @Morag
      Doug Daniel, Tommy Sheppard, Alison Thewliss as well as Nicola Sturgeon?

      Not convinced signing a pledge is the same as totally supporting its extremes.

    207. Morag says:

      Update. Yes, it’s clear some people on the rainbow list have signed simply in support of same-sex-attracted people. Mercy Kamanja is now on the list and she’s known to be gender-critical. So I suppose the message is, avoid that list unless you have specific information about an individual. (Nicola Sturgeon has signed, obviously. So has Ian Hudgton,)

    208. cynicalHighlander says:

      One either believes the science on sex or one doesn’t and if that is the case you cannot believe any science on anything one is not allowed to cherry pick.

      Science TWO sexes MALE or FEMALE no ifs buts or in betweens. end off

    209. Morag says:

      Doug Daniel, on the other hand, is a fully-paid-up member of the beardy bloke woke brigade. Not in a thousand million years.

    210. Morag says:

      One either believes the science on sex or one doesn’t and if that is the case you cannot believe any science on anything one is not allowed to cherry pick.

      Science TWO sexes MALE or FEMALE no ifs buts or in betweens. end of.

      This is actually true.

      It’s also true that sometimes an infant is born with ambiguous genitalia that leads to a mistake being made as to its sex. Usually this is boys being mistakenly believed to be girls. (Cough, cough, Caster Semenya, cough, cough.) Sometimes such a person will prefer to remain in the social role in which they have been brought up. Other times, they switch once the truth becomes known. But either way, their biological sex is fixed.

    211. dadsarmy says:

      @Morag
      Is he? I did wonder right enough once I thought about it. Shame.

      I think your proposition is fair – don’t vote for the list unless you know it’s OK, and if in doubt – ask around.

    212. Krabapple says:

      My daughter’s school recently converted half their toilets to mixed sex. I complained to the Council. The response I got back included this information:

      “It is standard practice in Scotland that mixed-sex toilets are included in plans for new schools or extensions to pre-existing schools. Whilst you are correct that this is not legislation, it is deemed that the implementation ensures that no protected characteristics are disadvantaged.”

      1. Since when is it ‘standard practice’? Who decided this?
      2. It is indeed ‘not legislation’, there is absolutely no law requiring schools to do this.
      3. ‘Ensures no protected characteristics are disadvantaged”. Identifying as transgender/non-binary/anything is not a protected characteristic. Holding a Gender Recognition Certificate is. Since you can’t legally hold a GRC until you’re 18, there are no school pupils in Scotland with this ‘protected characteristic’. It’s guff. It’s misinformation to councils, provided by lobby groups. The protected characteristics of sex, sexuality, disability and religious belief are all potentially affected by having mixed-sex toilets, but hey, who cares?

    213. Muscleguy says:

      I think the young are in favour simply because they are less likely to have needed or know anyone needing a women’s refuge or similar women’s only spaces. The youth also tend, as I did when young, think the world is perfectable in a utopian way and that we don’t have to worry about bad actors in the bright future becaue human nature will be magically fixed.

      I am a straight male who is totally opposed to self ID because I have sisters, daughters and nieces. At least some of whom who either needed help or provide it. I absolutely cannot be neutral.

    214. Black Joan says:

      Alyn Smith MEP, & would-be SNP MP for Stirling, loudly reprimanded supposed vile cybernats for lack of politesse and attacked people for re-tweeting the disgusting Leave EU Merkel-as- Hitler image (only in order to condemn it).

      He sets himself up to police the behaviour of some and yet says and does nothing to restrain or condemn that Jordon character’s poison (poison which includes vile abuse of SNP MSPs). Nor does he deny that said Jordon is his BF.

      Self-awareness, much?

    215. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I don’t like fingering anyone, so nae names, but…

      If there’s any single category of Scots who repulse me more than Tories, it’s those careerist fucks who got their abacuses and log tables out years ago to calculate the earliest possible arrival of independence and have been preparing for power ever since.

      They treat indy – and their elevated positions within the new order – as a given.

      They sit on the backs of the grass-roots Yes supporters and SNP members who do all the donkey work, and treat us with open disdain if we voice concerns about the party and/or the general direction of the movement. They are already behaving as if they are in charge, in government, in positions from which they are entitled to dictate to the rest of us.

      It’s really difficult to express how much these characters fuckin disgust me…think about it…we all, in our own ways (sometimes very toty and hopeless) try to advance this cause. It’s infuriating, it’s costly, it can be divisive and stressful and…ach fuck, you know what I’m on about. Many folk across the UK are becoming physically and mentally ill over Brexit-related shite, but plenty of us have been enduring something very similar for decades. Not as dramatic, perhaps, but just as frustrating, draining and, ultimately, damaging.

      As we bear the same auld load, year after year after year, waiting, waiting, hold, hold, hold, try not to fall out with yer Maw, yer missus, yer best mates, hold, hold, ignore the insults, the disrespect from almost every media outlet 24/7, keep the heid, hold…ad fuckin nauseum.

      And all the while, watching, waiting, are those who see this movement as nothing more than a springboard for their careers.

      We are expected not to interrupt when these self-appointed commissars issue decrees on how best to react to such-and-such an event, the red lines around discussion such-and-such an issue, and it’s all for the greater good and woe fuckin betide anyone who dares question their motivation.

      It’s particularly galling when you see people who used to comment here, just like the rest of us – partial to a bit of ‘banter’ and robust exchange! – now far from us forevermore.

      Should we pity them, these poor sowels upon whose shoulders the heavy hand of history has chosen to rest?

      I, for one, do not fucking think so.

      One of the funniest things about these arrogant fuckin arseholes – and they really are funny, even if they don’t realise it – is that they appear to imagine we’ve forgotten who they are and where they came from.

      Fret not, aw ye self-aggrandizing ‘careful’ preening roasters – youse will not be forgotten.

      Youse will never be forgotten.

      Be assured of that.

      🙂

    216. Daisy Walker says:

      A High School in Tayside allowed a 15 year old to self determine their gender to the opposite sex, changed their name on all school documents – all done outwith the parent’s knowledge and in direct opposition to the parent’s express wishes.

      The parent, I might add is unlikely to have been in the least bit phased about their child’s sexuality. Not a bigot by any means. Just a very worried and concerned parent.

    217. Andrew Brophy says:

      We shall never know how many acts of cowardice have been motivated by the fear of appearing not sufficiently progressive.

      Charles Peguy

    218. MorvenM says:

      I’m really shocked by these results. I can only think that those in favour have not thought through the consequences of this terrible legislation.

    219. BLMac says:

      The issue I care deeply about is independence.

      It is why I vote SNP although I do not necessarily agree with all their policies.

      This issue is something that should be put on the backburner until AFTER independence. It’s suspiciously like a cuckoo job initiated by people wanting to derail independence.

      The guiding rule is fight over the colour of the wallpaper once you have ownership of the house, not before.

    220. HandandShrimp says:

      If I had been a poll recipient I would have opted for 3 or 4 I don’t think about this topic other than when it crops up here and I can’t say I care hugely. Out of 100 political issues it would be a contender for the 100th place. However, I’m not hugely comfortable with men in particular demanding access to things like women’s refuges purely on self and I can see why women are concerned. Have no issue with people wanting to transition and I would imagine most people transitioning would be sensitive enough to such concerns as to work around them. Problem is that right on activists on any cause tend to be to be tone deaf, insensitive, prats.

      Consequently I’m not supportive of uncontrolled self id. Some sort of process to transition yes but what that should be must include discussion with women’s groups…not me though. It doesn’t impact on me and it remains the 100th topic on my list but if accord can be reached with the affected interests I’ll support it.

    221. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood @ 10.22pm

      Excellent post Ian.

      @ Black Joan @ 10.20pm

      I agree…pot…kettle…black by association…..Do as I say Not as my partner does…..Please leave a light on…..no for me though cause I’m standing as an MP in next WM GE….and my partner is trying to switch off the lights for some of my SNP colleagues…Lol

    222. James F. McIntosh says:

      So I am not to sure after Nicolas interview with toodle ooo the noo are we getting a ref next year with or without a sec. 30 as I think she promised already.

    223. dadsarmy says:

      @BLMac
      As I understand it, if nothing else happens, the draft GRA Bill will be published in December, go out to consultation, and be put through Holyrood next year. Which means at any convenient time, a GE, an Indy Ref, the media can have an orgy feasting on the SNP’s entrails.

      All that happened earlier in the year, was a delay.

    224. Clapper57 says:

      @ Cubby..for your above comment. Thank you. You’re a sweetie.

    225. SilverDarling says:

      @James F. McIntosh

      Expectation management for the conference? No big announcements just more of the same.

      @Ian Brotherhood

      I get you and I see them too. 100% twatterati the lot of them.

      @Black Joan

      Aye sherkaleg right enough. He can’t be shot of the EU parliament quick enough if the next step is a bigger platform. Ill judged remarks meant a grovelling apology from him to that guy from the Brexit Party. You would think his partner would have learned from that.

    226. cirsium says:

      good posts, Confused (1.56) and Ian Brotherhood (10.22).

      Thanks for sticking with this issue, Rev. Given the aggression and threats of violence against women, I had dismissed it as misogyny but seeing the information on entryism and the plans to try to deselect Joanna Cherry set alarm bells ringing. Definitely a case of cuckoos in the nest – just careerists or something else?

    227. twathater says:

      I like many many others want independence to enable Scottish people to elect governments to run our country effectively , and to observe and comply with the wishes of the vast majority of voters

      In the words of Liz G and others I want my government within slapping distance to ensure that they listen and obey the wishes of the electorate

      I am sick and tired of governments of all stripes pandering to the wishes of lobbying groups that focus on issues that conflict and impact negatively with the aims and aspirations of the majority of citizens , especially when these same organisations are being funded by those citizens

      We have suffered DECADES of liebours lies and promises to get elected , only to be ignored and marginalised after ,Scots have become more politically aware and up with this we will not put , if this lunacy costs us independence Nicola and her PC cohorts will never be forgiven

    228. McBoxheid says:

      push ahead with reforms for the benefit of less than 1% of the population. It remains to be seen how long that strategy can hold.
      ______________________________________________
      Supporting 1% is nothing new in politics. Ask the tories, they do it all the time! Westminster tax laws anyone.

    229. McBoxheid says:

      “I’m not sure what the demands are of those who call for self identification but I’m assuming they’re looking to speed up the process.”

      If you haven’t a clue what the issue is, maybe best to shush until you do.
      ____________________________
      Aye, really helpful reply. You started this, so its obvious that some folk don’t fully ubderstand the issue and would like to discuss it.

    230. Breeks says:

      Dr Jim says:
      10 October, 2019 at 6:55 pm
      The FM on BBC Reporting Scotland just confirmed there is no plan B because plan A is the right one and a referendum will be held in the Autumn of 2020 because she wants to make it Internationally accepted and recognised and in particular by the EU which fits in with the time scale Michael Russell said a couple of weeks ago to a Holyrood committee, The FM added to her statement she has never been surer of winning Independece than she is at this moment…

      There you have it then. All of us who both want to stay in Europe, all Scottish businesses who dand have the Constitutional Sovereignty of our Nation respectedepend on European trade, can all go and fuck ourselves. Vote SNP.

    231. Breeks says:

      WTF?
      I said, There we have it then. All of us who want to stay in Europe, all Scottish businesses which depend on European trade, and all of us who want to have the Constutional Sovereignty of our Nation respected, can all go and fuck ourselves. Vote SNP.

    232. Willie says:

      I have today decided that I am a fanny despite me having a prick.

      But tommorow I may decide to become a prick again.

      What a wonderful policy the SNP are introducing.

      No joking now and no, my language is not intemporate. This is serious stuff.

      And me in my visits to Costa Coffee or wherever should I use the ” ladies ” or the ” laddies ”

      Depends I suppose on what gender are you on the day.

      Ooh there’s a Laddie in the Ladies do I hear being shouted. No there’s not. But you have a thing. Well it doesn’t count………

      Maybe we should all be neuter gender. The French have nouns like that. Yes that’s it let us all be nouns, neuter ( gender ) nouns.

      Until then shall we have a laddies day out today?

      And one last thing…..my name is Willie!

    233. ahundredthidiot says:

      When the first rape of a female child by a bearded male who self IDs as a woman takes place, I sort of hope their parent is ‘fully supportive’ of the self ID issue.

      People who want to self ID can be split into two camps – mentally ill, or dangerous perverts – neither of which should be in a female space. and isnt it funny how its all men wanting to be in female spaces and not the other way around (by a huge margin)

      I am also looking forward to the first lawsuit against the property owner off the back of a rape in a gender neutral toilet.

      People who stay neutral on this issue are as bad as the German public of the thirties who sat on their hands while evil grew.

    234. BobW says:

      I hadn’t a clue this nonsense was being proposed by the Scottish Government, until Stu posted about it on Twitter. It appears that only one side understands biological science, the other side adhere to fantasy and by their actions, appear to me, to be misogynistic MRAs (Male Rights Activists).
      Present to the world how you want, but don’t try to force others to believe that one sex can magically, transform into the other, by the simple expedient of staying they are.

    235. BobW says:

      Staying = saying

    236. Lorraine says:

      You CANNOT ever change sex, no matter how many ops or hormones you take. Each and every cell in your body is either xy or xx. Therefore there is no such thing as transgender. Wear what you like, call yourself what you want, have ops and take hormones if you have to, but you will always be the sex your body was born and no-one should be forced to collude in an untruth especially because that collusion has seriously detrimental consequences for women.
      Perhaps Peter Dinklage feels he should have been born another body but would anyone collude with him if he insisted on acting the part of Michael Jordon?

    237. Brian Gordon says:

      I support independence and I vote SNP – but they are not reading the public shift against virtue signalling far left policies and opinions. This will cause them problems – I hope they take a more educated view on these issues. The trans issue looks to be a high water mark.

    238. Dan says:

      I’ll just tag this on the end of the thread for future reference.

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1183074993657266180

    239. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      The company I work for renovates closed buildings. When completed we re-open them with a strong emphasis on creating jobs.

      This week we had a very long discussion onsite about the “ladies” and “gents” toilets refurbishment at the current (closed down) hotel renovation. Interestingly, two of our project directors raised the name of Stuart Campbell and the crusade he has highlighted. One is a former police officer and has arrested male perverts abusing cameras to underskirt etc.

      Stu., just to let you know, there are positive results to your efforts. The hotel being renovated is NOW likely to have new style SINGLE toilet rooms for either gender and all areas between. Subject to the architect/company solicitor and building warrant/planning officer consult.

      There is great effort to make sure the disability compliant wc facilities we add are fully functional on BOTH statutory and pragmatic/physical level. This forethought is now being applied to women’s rights whilst respecting genuine trans-gender issues for transitioning male-to-female folk.

      Out of curiosity, I pulled the files on the past 24 years of our corporate history to discover we have owned and renovated 282 toilets. That amount staggered me (and our MD). Going forward we will be renovating 11 loos a year. My gut feeling is the powers that be at our company will transform all wc facilities to single-room-wc-universal-use. It costs a few thousand pound more plus a significant amount of extra space to comply with the number of facilities needed. But from our perspective it eliminates the risk of a miscreant self-I’d physical man at birth perving on women in a communal w.c.

      WELL DONE STUART, YOU ARE MAKING PROGRESS.

      One last observation. I see that useless, deeply unpleasant MSP Graeme Day is muscling in on the photo-op above. One of our lot is moving house. A very small but significant part of her reason was having such a lousy MSP as Graeme Day.

      She is off to live in Blairgowrie. Mainly because she spotted a nice house, but partly because her MSP used to be John Swinney our director reckons Mr Swinney is a very good constituency MSP. Graeme Day should thank his lucky stars as there was talk of a recall petition to get rid of him in Angus.

    240. Iain More says:

      The SNP is loaded with Cuckoos whose sole purpose is to damage Indy prospects in all of our lifetimes. It is a bit like the trains that are getting more expensive but the service worsens. Cuckoos = Saboteurs.



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