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The balance of powers

Posted on April 06, 2019 by

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    1. 06 04 19 08:56

      The balance of powers | speymouth

    258 to “The balance of powers”

    1. Fergus Green says:

      ….but not for much longer!

    2. Hamish100 says:

      Yip heard brexiter on radio actually saying No Surrender. As the unionists look back we look forward to a better future for our country and our citizens. Cracking satirical cartoon.The snear of the unelected Forsyth spot on.

    3. Keith Davidson says:

      If you ever need to do a cartoon of Slobodan Miloševi?, just draw Lord Forsyth.

    4. Themadmurph says:

      18th century is certainly too modern for Arlene, she can’t get past 1690. As for JRM God, only knows what century he’s from.

    5. Robert Louis says:

      Exactly. As England drags itself into the past, with knuckle dragging homophobic, racist bigots like ‘no surrender’ Arlene, Scotland is looking forward.

      It really is time we left those dimwits in London to get on with it. Our focus and that of the Scottish Government should be here, in Scotland, and getting us out of this cursed, unwanted, undemocratic ‘union’ with England. Enough of ‘helping them save themselves’. Time for Scotland. Not in a few months, but NOW.

    6. Robert Louis says:

      Almost like a horrific visitation by the three spirits in ‘A Christmas Carol’.

    7. winifred mccartney says:

      Hearing new passports don’t say European Union on them – it’s all like a really bad dream. except its still happening when you wake up.

      Glad Labour sticking to their guns, at the very least for a second vote and CU – May is simply incapable of negotiating with anyone, for her it’s my way or the highway.

    8. ScottieDog says:

      Fantastic.
      These should be on billboards!

    9. Clootie says:

      It sums up Brexit and the state of UK politics in one simple cartoon – an amazing skill Chris

    10. Socrates MacSporran says:

      To me, the way Chris has drawn Arlene, she looks like Robbie Coltraine’s Mason Boyne in drag.

    11. Marie Clark says:

      Geez oh, I was sitting eating my toast when I saw this, bloomin near put me off. Needs a health warning.

      Great toon Chris, says it all really. Come on Scotland, time to move forward to our own brighter future. Not backwards with tis bunch o’ eejits.

    12. sorry,

      but who`s the middle one ?

    13. Morgatron says:

      The middle hit, is creepy Forsyth, and i don’t mean Brucie!!

    14. starlaw says:

      Certainly not the Three Wise Monkeys, but dreamers of past glories stuck forever in their own time warp, where England is the supreme power and Britannia makes the rules, the Queen is in her castle and all is well in their little world.

    15. Breeks says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      6 April, 2019 at 8:21 am
      sorry,

      but who`s the middle one ?

      Michael Forsyth.

    16. Ottomanboi says:

      The perilous state of the fabric of the palace of Westminster is totemic. Why are we still there? Surely not to do maintenance? SNaP DEMOLITIONS still on call?

    17. Morgatron says:

      Chris, my Saturday has now officially commenced. Top toon,reminds me of Victorian Dad from the Viz, all self righteous, controlling, smarmy twats who don’t belong to this century and in most cases the last century either.I know what’s best for you , but with morals of an alley cat. Forsyth, the whispering ,ermine wearing creep, Arlene and her coat of one colour

    18. Morgatron says:

      I present, JRM the magician, he can’t pull a rabbit out his top hat, but he can pull a hare out his arse!. Frighting times,and we are told by the likes of him and pie faced Galloway that it’s the privileged who are destroying Brexit. You gotta fucking laugh at them as they do think their motives are invisable.

    19. Serinde says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      That middle chap is Michael Forsyth, Baron Forsyth of Drumlean, Secretary of State for Scotland in John Major’s Conservative government (1995–97). Last seen in the Lords opining about tyranny WRT having to change the way the Lords operates to accommodate debating and passing the Cooper amendment, given the time constraints in the Commons. He is best known, I suspect, for being “in charge” when the Conservatives famously no MPs to Westminster.

    20. Heart of Galloway says:

      Wonderful depiction Chris – the three amigos right enough. And all the time throughout this calamitous mess the elephant in the room has always been Scotland.

      Ever since our country voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the European family of nations the die has been cast.

      There have been a.couple of false starts. But Ian Blackford’s brandishing of Scottish popular sovereignty in Theresa May’s face has scared the living bejaysus out of the British Establishment.

      Forster would be happy to see razor wire along the British border in Ireland. But she is as venomously opposed to Scottish independence as she is to Irish reunification.

      She and her cohorts are a malevolent force.

    21. ronnie anderson says:

      Curly Moe n Larry but naebody’s laughin .

      Well done Chris .

    22. auld highlander says:

      The freak of nature on the right with cast off demob suits, probably got a copy of mein kamph by his bed, the neep on the left’s pin number is 1690 and as for that slithering little turd in the middle………….

      The worlds moved on and these ballons want to keep returning to Brigadoon.

    23. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Louis.

      Lol. Though I think the ghosts had more substance.

    24. Capella says:

      Brilliant. As flattering a portrait as those relics deserve.

    25. bookie from hell says:

      if you renew driving licence – british flag only
      If you renew passport – non european

      this is devolution not independence

    26. Gary45% says:

      Another classic Chris, Nice one.
      Knuckle draggers having a wee march through Inverness today, I still can’t see the connection with a modern Scotland.

    27. Gullaneno4 says:

      Have you noticed how Forsyth always has that smirk on when he is talking about Scotland.

    28. louis.b.argyll says:

      Very good Chris.

    29. Lenny Hartley says:

      Superb, needs be on billboards in the run up to indyref2

    30. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Chris,

      That is both brilliant and utterly depressing.

      I feel like vomiting.

      All over those three clowns.

    31. jfngw says:

      Ah! The upper classes, if they can’t get their own way they believe cheating is the perfectly acceptable alternative. They normally get their own way because they pack the HoL’s with their friends and toady’s, hasn’t worked with the EU and they are incandescent with rage.

    32. manandboy says:

      Someday, Chris, in an as yet distant but Independent future, your drawings may well be referred to as ‘Old Masters’. But even if not, your genius will always be recognised in this generation.

    33. jfngw says:

      Almost amusing that I see politicians are receiving seminars on what the CU is, this is weeks after they have been voting on it, and over two years since agreeing to leave it. Of course if Boris Johnston can be considered one of the top brass then the rest must have particularly dire abilities.

    34. manandboy says:

      Brexit has become a global soap opera with no equal, not even Donald Trump. Watched by a worldwide audience which includes both the wealthy and political classes, everyone is forming an ongoing and very negative opinion about the Westminster Government, the UK Parliament and the British Establishment. As part of that opinion, the performance of both the PM and the Leader of the Opposition, leaves a lot to be desired, as Chris Gray points out.

      http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Jeremy%20Corbyn?m=0

      “The personal and political dislike between May and Corbyn is visceral, probably greater than there has ever been, at least in my lifetime, between the leaders of the two main parties. Apparently despite that, but actually compounding it, are their resemblances. As I have written before, they are “remarkably similar in their grotesque rigidity and their slightly tetchy muleishness born of a mediocrity of character, intellect and judgement”. Both, moreover, are instinctively tribal.”

    35. Capella says:

      While waiting for something – anything – to happen constitution wise, here is a chart showing the Jacobite line of succession. Turns out King Joseph of Lichtenstein is the Jacobite King of Scots in the parallel universe.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bKUyRv2MB8

    36. robertknight says:

      Larry, Curly and Moe.

    37. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Capella

      Grand Duke Joseph, surely.dWe don’t want Johnny Foreigner getting notions of grandeur.

      Everyone knows (well, our Southern neighbours tell us often enough) there are only five real Kings – of Clubs, Diamonds, Hearts, Spades and England.

    38. Capella says:

      A peculiar, bilious attack on the Irish from Robert Hardman in the Spectator. Check the cartoon – Scotland missing from the UK map being carved up by the dastardly EU officials.
      From Stu’s twitter – can’t archive.

      https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/irelands-strange-decision-to-become-a-french-colonial-outpost/

    39. Capella says:

      @ Socrates MacS – maybe he’d give us a better deal, since we’re in auction mode. We’ve never had a King Joe before. Would make a nice change.

    40. manandboy says:

      Indy2014 and Brexit both demonstrate that Scotland lives still in the deep shadow of the British Empire.

      As Spring approaches, I’m reminded that nothing much grows in shadow, including Independence. It’s something we have in common with all British Colonies, as was and for some, still is.

      It goes without saying, that deep shadow lies mainly across the minds of No voters.

    41. Bob Mack says:

      The cabal at Westminster has become the laughing stock of the world. Why ? See the cartoon above.

      They are determined to lead a lifestyle which has been long passed by history and reason. It is all right having quaint customs,but when it rules and determines the rhythm of your life you can never move on. The world surges forward whilst they celebrate glories of long ago. An old lion who still thinks it is able to claim a territory surrounded by younger fitter rivals.

      The UK is dead. Let it now rest in peace.

    42. Brian Powell says:

      It does make Scots look quite pathetic.

    43. Terry callachan says:

      LBC radio yesterday, mr ferrari ,what a rude ignorant person he is.
      Anyway, he as usual was discussing brexit with his phone in people ,all English folk , they discussed at length how people in England voted in favour of brexit and went on to discuss the possibility of a second brexit referendum concluding that some think a second referendum resulting in favour of brexit would be conclusive and final and a result in favour of remain would lead to dissatisfaction amongst brexiters because they would call for a third vote to make it best of three and there may then be a fourth or fifth brexit referendum and where would it all end.

      Seriously this was the discussion they had.

      Mr Ferrari also said that it was essential that the people of England and Wales get what they vote for and went on to discuss this aspect with his phone in people.

      Nowhere in a 45 minute discussion did Scotland or Northern Ireland get mentioned it was as if they do not exist I would say it was done purposely ,it’s like a disease spreading across the media where there is a clear effort to exclude mention of Scotland and Northern Ireland from brexit discussion not just in Westminster as we have already seen with Theresa May getting to her feet and rudely exiting the building when SNP begin to talk but also in the newspapers on tv and radio.

      I was talking to an acquaintance last night about the rising popularity of gin ,he said he buys Gordon’s London gin ,I happened to mention that Gordon’s gin was actually first produced by a Scotsman who went to live in London with his parents and I said it is now actually produced and manufactured in Fife, gee, that touched a nerve, I knew he was a britnat but he went crazy got so angry just didn’t want to talk about it .
      I sense the britnats are losing their grip ,they are now trying very hard to pretend Scotland just does not exist.

    44. Brian Powell says:

      I wonder how many layers there are of archaic UK government in Scotland. I mean Lord Lietenants, Lords, Crown Estates etc?

    45. You are the de’il incarnate, cairns.
      “The Rime of the Ancient Mariner”

      Argument
      How a Ship having passed the Line was driven by storms to the cold Country towards the South Pole; and how from thence she made her course to the tropical Latitude of the Great Pacific Ocean; and of the strange things that befell; and in what manner the Ancyent Marinere came back to his own Country.
      “It is an ancient Mariner,
      And he stoppeth one of three.
      ‘By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
      Now wherefore stopp’st thou me?
      The Bridegroom’s doors are opened wide,
      And I am next of kin;
      The guests are met, the feast is set:
      May’st hear the merry din.’

      He holds him with his skinny hand,
      ‘There was a ship,’ quoth he.
      ‘Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!’
      Eftsoons his hand dropt he.’

      He holds him with his glittering eye—
      The Wedding-Guest stood still,
      And listens like a three years’ child:
      The Mariner hath his will. ”

      This ‘grey-beard loon’, Scotland, has given England every chance it can to stop the madness.
      They have killed the albatross, and will wander the Seven Seas, surrounded by water, and not a drop to drink.
      We have no choice but to break the Union.
      I wish them luck for the future.
      Cairns, ‘kin ace cartoon.

    46. Effijy says:

      Daily Hail back up to SNP Bad mode as they fear Independence calling.
      Scottish schools bad as our kids are violent and one, that’s 1, kid fired an
      Air pistol at a teacher.

      This seems to trump the higher school violence ratios in England and the HUNDREDS
      of Youth Stabbing deaths in London alone!

      The Hail has uncovered e-mails to Hollyrood that declare indevuduals are unhappy with Scotrail
      Services. They forgot to mention that our rails services are more reliable than those in England,
      How the rail operators and Abillios EU contract cannot be broken at this time.

      One story had a positive message on good work carried out by one MSP.
      As his party was never mentioned, we can bet he is SNP.

      Back again with Scotland the most taxed area in the UK story.
      As expected they refuse to accept the MAJORITY of Scots will
      Pay less tax and the higher earners, just like me, are happy to
      Pay a couple of quid each month to remove the need of food banks,
      Children living in poverty and period poverty.

      Money put to good use and not tax breaks for international multi million pound operations.

      They truly are in the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    47. McDuff says:

      Says it all Chris.

    48. Scott says:

      Someone saying that a pro-independence poll is showing 37% for and 63% for staying in UK,I have not seen this has anyone else or is it just SiU crap.

    49. Effijy says:

      Looking for a Wings connection horse for the Grand National.

      Bless the Wings had my pound, but how about:

      Outlander the Tory Band drama about England’s abuse of Scotland.

      Pleasant Company- we have that alright on Wings.

      General Principles

      Go Conquor

      Live love laugh

      Noble Endeavour

      Up for Review

      Vieux Lion Rouge- Old Red Lion with the Rev being an Aberdeen FC fan?

      Warriors Tale

      Blow by Blow

      Who would have thought so many race horse owners would pick names connected to Wings?

    50. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Nice one Chris, enough to make you reach for the pitchfork.

      Drove in and out of Glasgow just now many bridges occupied by the good folk armed with their Saltires.

      If you are on the site I salute you and thank you you made me smile.

    51. msean says:

      Excellent cartoon.And seemingly true.

    52. Breeks says:

      I don’t have any time for Michael Forsyth, but for the strangest reason, whenever he crops up, there’s a distant and far away bell ringing in my head that Forsyth was one of the very few Unionists who properly understood the Constitutional ramifications of Devolution.

      I have no source to quote you other than a dim ghost of a recollection in my head, but Forsyth knew, and warned, that Devolution was a Constitutional minefield, and that drawing a map through that minefield would inadvertently reveal what a pack of lies the UK Constitution actually was, leaving grievances and arguments about Scottish Independence largely vindicated.

      It made me think Forsyth was useful. Not for his “Toryness”, Unionism, or “honesty”, but because he was “one of them”, but one of them who understood the Constitutional truth about Scotland, and that when the game was up, when that Constitutional truth was unravelled, it would be Unionists like Forsyth who would be instrumental in confirming that truth to those die hard Unionists who will never listen to us in a million years. He knows.

      I don’t like Michael Forsyth, but he knows what we know. He knows the Union is living on borrowed time and that ultimately, we win. If he had more grace and decency, he might even be worthy of respect as an honourable adversary who might at least be torn to distraction by some diligent argument for Unionism, – but then he wouldn’t be a Tory in the first place. He could, but for his own prejudices, help the rightful dissolution of the Union be a smooth and equitable affair, but it would seem he hasn’t the character that such a thing would take.

      But instead, he knows the truth, but peddles the lies regardless, so that makes him the lowest of the low. If memory serves, Ian Laing was a stablemate, and his GER’s creation was equally wilful in its derailment of the truth for Scotland. Their colourful coat of many weasels will sit comfortably on both of these “gentlemens’” shoulders.

      And somewhere in a shed, they are probably strangling the poor weasels for Fluffy’s red poncho as we speak.

    53. call me dave says:

      @Scott

      There are two new articles on http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

      re: Dud polls.

    54. call me dave says:

      @Breeks

      I think your memory is right. Warned Thatcher to be careful of how to treat Scotland etc. (still a Tory though) 🙁

    55. Dr Jim says:

      A right on the money cartoon this one, and exposes the situation perfectly

    56. Ottomanboi says:

      @Scott
      When i hear SiU i reach for my gun….just joking, honestly! After all they’re just such nice guys….just joking, honestly!

    57. defo says:

      Three sneers for their Union!

    58. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT I had no idea so many ridiculous , so called journalists wrote for the Spectator .Many moons ago I used to read it irregularly.

      I have just read the piece highlighted on the Rev’s twitter about Ireland having the cheek to be happier with the French than the British . Someone should tell the writer to read about the evils visited on the Irish by the brutish.

      I did discover that the eejit who wrote that particular piece was a Daily mail writer – which explained much!

      Mr Cairns , that cartoon disturbed my morning.

    59. Clootie says:

      Way O.T.

      One last try.

      Does anyone have a contact email for someone at AUOB.
      I have dozens of new Hi Vis jackets – security / steward / first aiders / organiser (blue) etc
      stock from 2012/13 march preps.

    60. Proud Cybernat says:

      Telling it how it is…

      https://i.imgur.com/KKYVcZ4.png

    61. Clootie says:

      Defo @12:25

      🙂 nice one!

    62. Just reading a bit of history,

      have read that the three lions of England should be the three leopards of England,

      and then some pish that the English confused leopards with lions.

    63. msean says:

      Mr Forsyth,is that the one that ruled in Scotland even though we all voted Labour at that time?

    64. Dr Jim says:

      @msean 12:39pm

      And he’s still doing it from the HOL

    65. defo says:

      Cheers Clootie, but all credit is due to our Holiday Boy expertly drawing out their essence.
      “Say what you see”

    66. SilverDarling says:

      The 18th century is their happy place. A safe space to retreat to in times of stress, although some have never left.

    67. Lenny Hartley says:

      Scott re poll go and read scotland goes pop

    68. Gavin says:

      At 11:25 Terry Callachan wrote:

      “I was talking to an acquaintance last night about the rising popularity of gin ,he said he buys Gordon’s London gin ,I happened to mention that Gordon’s gin was actually first produced by a Scotsman who went to live in London with his parents and I said it is now actually produced and manufactured in Fife, gee, that touched a nerve, I knew he was a britnat but he went crazy got so angry just didn’t want to talk about it .”

      Just as well you didn’t tell him that Pimms, that quintessential English summertime drink, is also manufactured at the Cameronbridge distillery in Fife. Your acquaintance would have burst a blood vessel !!!!

    69. mogabee says:

      Great ‘toon Chris…but

      How depressing is that!

    70. dramfineday says:

      First Class Chris, most enjoyable.

    71. Bill Hume says:

      Michael Forsyth, MP for Dunblane at the time of the school shooting. Had quite a lot of contact with Hamilton the gunman.
      We will never know the full story as it’s all covered by a 100 year ban.

    72. Hamish100 says:

      OT good article in the National today from Dave McEwan Hill over the poor ferry service between Gourock Dunoon. What the west coasters need is more infrastructure projects just like tne new Aberdeen bypass, borders railway, Edinburgh trams and Queensferry crossing, A9 upgrade etcetera. When are the west coast and islanders going to see some?

    73. Gavin says:

      At 12:38 Scot Finlayson wrote:

      “have read that the three lions of England should be the three leopards of England,”

      Apparently only one of these “lions” represents England, the other two represent Normandy and Aquitaine in France, the territory’s ruled by Richard 1 of England, who incidentally was more French than English, and spent most of his reign in France.

    74. Iain mhor says:

      @Scott Finlayson

      The Armorial Lions being derived from the Armorials of the House of Plantagenet, French (from Anjou) in origin.
      The French referred to them as Leopards but they were definitely referred to and adopted as Lions by the time of Henry II and three of them became the de-facto arms under Richard III (Lionheart) The Plantagenets in England were two Cadet branches (see War of the Roses) of the Plantagenet Royal House
      It would be more correct to wonder why the French referred to them as Leopards and which animal they had in mind at the time, the confusion lies with them more than the English armorial.
      It’s a well used wee dig in conversation, to find out what Englishmen know of their history; but deriving, if anything, for some kind of retort to the neverending 196* “Three lions on the shirt” refrain, but English Lions they definitely are, if they were ever meant to be Leopards originally, the English Plantagenets changed it irrevocably.

    75. chicmac says:

      The ghost of Brexit past.

      The past is orange.

      Forsythe SAGA, who needs it when you have the ermine?

      The EU should say ‘We’ll give you a year extension but… we do not want to hear another word from you until you have a parliamentary approved plan, then we’ll listen to it and say whether it is acceptable to us. Meanwhile, those currently working on Brexit from the EU side will suspend all work on it and do something more useful.’

    76. Simon Curran says:

      Slightly o/t though maybe not much given some of the characters in the cartoon. Front page of Irish Post was depressing this morning with news of Apprentice Boys parade in Glasgow on Easter Sunday going past Catholic churches for what I assume will not be a joyous ecumenical event. I hope in an independent Scotland that sort of nonsense will soon become a thing of the past.

    77. CameronB Brodie says:

      This lot aren’t simply taking us back in time, they reject Moral Law and seek to subvert Moral Reason. These thugs are not democrats.

      Ethics in the Public Domain: Essays in the Morality of Law and Politics
      National Self-Determination

      This chapter deals with the moral justification of the case for national self-determination. It subject lies within the morality of international relations rather than within international law and international relations proper. It assumes throughout that states and international law should recognize such a right only if there is a sound moral case for it. The second section deals with the nature of groups that might be the subject of such a right. The third section considers the value served by the enjoyment of political independence by such groups. The fourth section considers the case for conceding that there is a moral right to self-determination. On the one hand, the right to self-determination is neither absolute nor unconditional. On the other hand, the interests of members of an encompassing group in the self-respect and prosperity of the group are among the most vital human interests.

      Keywords: groups, self-government, self-determination, human interest, political independence

      http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198260691.001.0001/acprof-9780198260691-chapter-6

      #DissolveTheUnion

    78. Ken500 says:

      Forsyth was Thatcher henchmen who covered up her crime. He is an evil little gutter snipe of monumental proportions. A filthy little evil con man. He covered up their crimes when people were starving and suffering unneccessary hardship. He and Neil are the lowest of the low. Nothing changes with these crooks.

      He even describes the EU as an unelected consortium, while that thing has been troughing in the HoL for years. The unself aware irony. He can rot in hell. If there is any justice.

      The only question anyone has asked. Calling out that low life.

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      chicmac
      I reckon the EU is entitled to bill HMG for all the disruption caused to EU business. Why should EU citizens pay for a right-wing coupe in Westminster?

    80. Dr Jim says:

      Just watched an advert on *what you’ll need when we leave the EU* if you want to travel

      And they do it all in cartoon style with a ladies soft and gentle voice advising us

      It goes a bit like this *You’ll need you’ll need you’ll need you’ll need you’ll need

      I really really demand NOT to need to return to those days when it cost you a fortune for the stuff you NEED before you even buy a ticket

      Watch how arrogantly angry the people who voted for this shit get when they realise they can’t just jump on a plane anymore, or the train, or a boat or even a bus to a European destination they used to take for granted for a weekend jolly

      Let’s hear it for the *nobody told us about that* clowns then

      Shouting *We’re British* just put them in the outsiders long wait queue where every I is dotted and every T crossed to make sure they’re an eligable person to be ALLOWED to enter the EU

      That’s what *I’m British* just got them

    81. Essexexile says:

      The Orange marches and their associated hatred dredged up annually from hundreds of years ago are a national shame for Scotland.
      There are those who unconvincingly blame them on England’s continuing policy of divide and rule but that is delusional nonsense. It is Scotland’s problem, and one which is likely to carry with it into independence.
      Outside of (possibly) Liverpool, there is no religious sectarianism in England between Catholics and Protestants on anything approaching the divide in Scotland. No historical bigotry is marched through the streets every year with the single purpose of pissing off fellow countrymen.
      In England they just have Morris dancing.

    82. Dr Jim says:

      Yeah no sectariansism in England they have foreigner and people of colour hatred so they’re pretty well sorted for hatred there

    83. Giving Goose says:

      Hamish 100

      When Scotland has ownership of all her revenues.

    84. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      What’s with the picture of the long haired cat which has been shown on every single on-line newspaper for the last few days?

    85. Ian McCubbin says:

      Those toxic waxlings just don’t know yet that there era is over.
      But its coming to them soon.

    86. wull says:

      Simon Curran at 1.41: Glasgow City Council (or whatever it is now called) – and even the Scottish Government – should immediately be bombarded with objections. Deliberately provocative marches of this kind need to be removed from our streets, once and for all.

      I know it is tricky to define these things, but Orange Walks on in such areas, routed past Catholic institutions, should be banned. Everyone knows what they mean, and why they want to pass that way. They cannot be compared to legitimate and peaceful forms of demonstration for other causes.

      Surely we do not have to wait till independence to take action on this sort of thing. Decent people of all religious persuasions and none – and not just church-going Catholics in the places affected – are opposed to this. That means most of us, no matter what our politics or our religious background.

      It is not just a Glasgow problem. If local authorities in Glasgow and elsewhere haven’t got the courage or the will or the guts to deal with it, the Scottish Government should get directly involved. In my opinion, it’s time it did. The least we can all do is contact our MSP, and urge some action.

      Decent people don’t defend each other, and affirm each other’s right to go about their business peacefully, without being harassed or threatened on the streets. If they don’t, offensive anti-social behaviour and even downright thuggery will soon take over.

      We might not be so far away from mob rule as we think. If you don’t believe me, just contemplate what’s really happening down south. There are extreme Brexiteers seem to think they can get away with any kind of behaviour they like. Juts consider the way MPs have been harassed outside Westminster, going in and out from their place of work. And look at some of the people, not just Orange Order but Nazi-saluting types, that have been on show there in recent weeks, with virtual impunity.

      They weren’t demonstrating for peace!

    87. manandboy says:

      Breaking: May&Corbyn issue joint statement :-
      ‘As long as we control what the voters think, through State propaganda, we have nothing to worry about.’
      ‘Ps. Mugs.’

      After eight years of Austerity and nearly three years of Brexit, the Tories are still in Government, and the inherited wealth and power of the British Colonial Establishment remains intact. How can this be in a healthy democracy?

      The answer of course is that democracy in the UK is anything but healthy. The Establishment doesn’t believe in it and therefore does not practice it. But it does CONTROL it, by means of the all-powerful Unionist broadcast, online and print media. Britain’s so-called democracy is for show, a veneer to fool those at home and abroad into giving their support to what began as royalty and aristocracy, but which lives today as criminality, practiced by a class which is simply above the law.

    88. wull says:

      Sorry – correction needed to previous post, which (at the beginning of its fifth paragraph) should read as follows:

      ‘Decent people NEED TO defend each other, and affirm each other’s right to go about their business peacefully, without being harassed or threatened on the streets.’

      NOT ‘don’t’, which made nonsense of it. Thank you.

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      Anyone else find this YouTube Clip hilarious?

      You won’t find it on the MSM or Jockland broadcast channels though.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3ZsMbkCOnQ

    90. manandboy says:

      ORANGE PARADES – and the remarkable coincidence.

      There are Catholic churches in only 2% of Glasgow’s streets.
      By a remarkable coincidence, the only streets in Glasgow suitable for Orange parades are those same streets.

    91. gus1940 says:

      Last weekend these charming Brexit people set fire to EU flags in London .

      I am unaware of that being considered a crime by the Met as no reports appeared of anybody being arrested and charged re said heinous act.

      Does anybody know if Buthcher’s Aprons are fireproof?

    92. Ottomanboi says:

      The English are past masters of the art of dissembling. The notion that they are a tolerant people is part of the scam. However any intolerance is not of a reasoned or intellectual kind, that is something crazy Europeans do, but rather born out of laziness and in the view of the essayist, critic and philosopher George Steiner, indifference. However, it is an indifference that has left and continues to leave a trail of confusion and ‘colateral damage’ in its wake.

    93. CameronB Brodie says:

      Petra
      I’ve managed to change cognitive gear from numb-nuts and those links re. the ethical communication of bio-medical science are now up in OT. 😉

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-74/#comment-2449305

    94. Referendum1707 says:

      gus1940 3.40

      I have no idea whether or not publicly burning a uj flag would be good, bad or indifferent for the independence cause.

      Wouldn’t even necessarily have to be “public” as such, just film it then upload online, having accompanied the action with a suitable statement outlining why Scotland’s continued subjugation under the WM boot demands such an action.

      Personally I’d applaud it but that’s just me. The blustering fury of the bigots and britnats would be a joy to behold.

    95. Liz g says:

      The 1949 @ 3.40
      Burning anyone’s flag is disrespectful ( I know you probably mean it tongue cheek ) and mair tae the point,it would make us like them who do… Who’d want that.
      Running it down the flag pole,folding it up and sending it back, will be much more satisfying when the time comes.
      …………………..
      Re. Banning Orange Marches
      Well firstly, I’m against it,because it’s an issue we don’t need to have.Pretty soon after Indy that culture will fade away all by its self,it will have no real reason to continue.
      Yes, they will promote themselves a bit more between now and then.They obviously will be encouraged to do so.But once the Union is beyond reunification, (our Constitution should take care of that) they will begin to look even more ridiculous.
      Also if we start to teach proper Scottish History,and we get it right,there are plenty of old battles of our own to be interested in.
      EG
      It won’t take very long to become strange to march through Inverness because of a battle involving 2 third countries,yet ignore Culloden, and if there’s one thing most teenagers hate is being different and strange….. It’s our young who will end it by just not engaging.
      Glasgow might take a wee bit longer but we’ve time…

      In the meantime I don’t think we can ban them right now anyway because…… Wait for it….. The EU protects their right to express their culture,which is why,I think they have been claiming “it’s oor Kulture” recently,they didn’t used to!
      The real delicious bit is….
      If there’s a gap when Scotland is not in the EU, Holyrood and/or individual councils could ban them.
      Again I’m not sayin we should,only that they’re informed we could,loudly, (they must aw be half deef wi the racket by noo) and often!
      Then only way to ensure that they get,or keep the automatic right to march is to vote for Scotland to join the EU.
      Once Scotland has joined the EU and England has left,it also makes any reunification between us practically impossible.
      So they are in quite a difficulty…
      So I’d say let’s bide oor time on this one!!

    96. galamcennalath says:

      @Referendum1707
      @gus1940

      publicly burning a uj flag

      IMO it’s not a good image. It has violent undertones and is the sort of mob behaviour you see in less gentile societies. We Scots don’t need to carry out such acts.

      Also, many people see it as their flag. While we see it as symbolic of colonial domination and interference, they don’t. They see it as a personal attack. We need to encourage don’t-knows and ‘soft’ Brits to vote YES to iScotland because ‘Britain’ has gone to the far right. We want iScotland to look like a beacon of order in contrast to the chaos of the UK.

      No flag burning, please.

      I’m quite happy to see the Union Flag disappear and be consigned to the history books.

    97. twathater says:

      Wull @ 3.18pm I totally agree with your assertions it is archaic and divisive to have ANY religious affiliated marches anywhere in Scotland

      That is one of the reasons that I believe that we should have MORE referenda taking place , where everyone can instruct our parliament on the views and opinions of the majority of our citizens , similarly with the repeal of the OBFA legislation or the LOCH LOMOND DEVELOPMENT ( ruination ).

      I am glad that James Dornan has proposed steps on this absurdity , including a probable consultation , but we can all be assured that the usual suspects of both sides will be garnering their support in opposition to sensible legislation that FORCES clubs to face their responsibility

      Consultations give a varying degree of opinion but are not widely advertised or promoted and unless you have a vested interest most pass people by e.g the Scottish Constitution

      I want Scotland and us Scots to shape our future I want our government to listen and act on what WE want , we have had centuries of our futures being decided for us by a shower of liars and corrupt cheats who promise one thing and then ignore us till the next election (YES LIEBOUR I’M TALKING ABOUT YOU )

      Roll on INDEPENDENCE AND BLOCKCHAIN VOTING

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. burning flags. Bad idea and not necessary, IMHO. We have Moral Law and Moral Reason on our side.

      Anyone know if the Church of Scotland are still wedded to British nationalism?

      Reason, Morality, and Law: The Philosophy of John Finnis
      On the Most Fundamental Principle of Morality

      This chapter explores John Finnis’ several formulations of the most fundamental principle of morality. The best known is that one should always choose and otherwise will consistently choose morality with integral human (revised to ‘communal’) fulfillment. Another formulation requires choice responsive to unfettered practical reason. Underlying the latter is responsiveness to the integral directiveness of practical reason. This last one locates the most basic connection between free choice and practical reason.

      Keywords: basic moral principles, integral human fulfilment, unfettered practical reason
      http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199675500.001.0001/acprof-9780199675500-chapter-5

      Natural Law: Basic Principles, Objections, and Responses
      https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/natural-law-basic-principles-objections-and-responses/

      MORAL PRINCIPLES ARE NOT MORAL LAWS
      http://www.jesp.org/PDF/MoralPrinciplesAreNotMoralLaws.pdf

      LAW OF STATES, LAW OF PEOPLES:
      Three Models of Sovereignty

      https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/1509-heldlaw-of-states-law-of-peoplespdf

    99. galamcennalath says:

      ” Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said that he believes the UK will be granted a Brexit extension and warned that any country that uses a veto against the move “wouldn’t be forgiven”.”

      https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/taoiseach-says-eu-unlikely-to-veto-brexit-extension-as-may-warned-of-existential-threat-to-party-37989310.html

      The EU is in a difficult position. It probably won’t be the one who openly causes ‘no deal’.

      Cameron, May, the Tories have made so many mistakes with Brexit. The biggest was to start the whole thing off, because it was never actually intended to come to anything!

      Having happened, May’s biggest mistakes IMO were to set red lines before there was any plan, and to put ‘no deal’ on the table as an option.

      The red lines meant a Canada style trade agreement, and given the Belfast Agreement, meant NI would have to go its own way closer to the EU. And that’s exactly why WM is in the shit now. They wouldn’t face that reality.

      The Leave campaign is jam-packed full of statements about how full access to the single market wouldn’t be compromised. No one campaigned openly for a ‘no deal’.

      The EU is making it clear that that after a ‘no deal’ Brexit, before future talks could begin, all the conditions of the current Withdrawal Agreement would still have to be met! Money, EU citizen’s rights, and NI’s close-to-EU status. For any future relationship with the EU, they must be resolved first.

      ‘No deal’ isn’t viable, never was.

      So May will get an extension, it sounds like. What for? To do a massive U turn on red lines? I doubt it.

    100. Liz g says:

      twathater @ 5.08
      While I agree that “the people” need to take a more active role in directing ” the government “,it is something that needs to be handled very carefully..
      If it would only take one or two nutty politicians to get to put an issue to a referendum, that may take us down a road we would regret being on.

      EG. ( of which there are many but let’s take one that’s not current)
      It has been said that given a referendum,most “people” would vote to bring back Capital Punishment.
      Yet the awareness doesn’t seem to follow that there are NO laws for killer’s,or paedophiles, there is only THE law.

      Therefore “the people” would in effect be voting to give ” the government ” the right to kill them too!
      A power most people would then say they don’t think a government should have.

      The people aren’t always the answer,because the trouble with democracy is that it assumes that 99% of idiots make a better decision than one well informed person.

      We could learn from the way the (N) word is now not used in the US.
      They cannot make a Law to ban it because of their Constitutional freedom of speech,yet,no serious person,or person who wanted to be taken seriously would use it today.
      It was educated, not legislated, out of the discourse.
      We cannot run and vote to make the government change every thing that annoys us.
      We need a balance!

    101. Terry callachan says:

      Burning flags ? My opinion is ,so what , really if you get annoyed by a burning flag or a burning photo of a politician you need to give yourself a shake.

      Orange order marches are a different thing altogether, it’s not the march itself that is threatening and provocative ,it’s where they march.
      Local authorities should only allow orange order marches away from built up areas where other people live.
      Let them march, but not through our streets, it is after all “a war march”.

    102. Liz g says:

      Galamcennalath @ 5.41
      As long as that extension is not really to be running down the clock on us….
      We’d have time to deliver a Yes vote,but we also need time to gain Indy before the next Holyrood elections.
      Because Westminster will pull this no agreement shit to be able to use the next Holyrood elections to reverse the Yes vote.
      If Westminster have learned anything from this Brexit shit show it’s that the one with the deadline is the one with the disadvantage.

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Liz g says:

      we also need time to gain Indy before the next Holyrood elections

      Indeed. Their battle plan is to try to get a Unionist majority in 2021. And the closer to that date they can get, the worse for our cause.

      The nightmare scenario would be achieving a close YES win, but then failing to get 50% pro Indy MSPs in Holyrood2021. Many people don’t do joined up politics. They see each vote standing in its own. It is quite probable that people will back YES because of the EU and Brexit, but would then go and vote BritNat at Holyrood. I suspect this is most likely among Lab or even LibDems.

      Counting back from May 2021, just over two years way, we need to fit in IndyRef2 and Indyday. For me, that certainly means voting well within any one year Brexit extension!

    104. Liz g says:

      Terry Callahan @ 5.40
      I think it really a case of pick yer battles Terry.
      Right here right now those marches are no the immediate problem!
      If they are threatening or provocative now they’ve always been threatening and provocative… Aye?
      Yet now they are more constrained if they step out of line than ever they were.
      One things for sure we will definitely be stuck with them if we stay in this bloody Union but we will soon be rid of them when we leave it…
      So eyes oan the prize eh!!

    105. Liz g says:

      Galamcennalath @ 6.10
      Yes totally agree..
      They know the only thing holding Nicola back is an EU exit decision.
      We know they had Scotland on their mind in the cabinet meetings last week.
      It’s very much looking like we’ll need to bite the bullet and go for it,so that we’re far enough down the Indy road,the next Holyrood Election is a Scotland only affair!

    106. Hamish100 says:

      Burning any UJ flag would suit a unionist paper for PR. Anyone supporting such an idea is supporting the unionists.

    107. Golfnut says:

      @ Iain Mohr.

      Yep definitely lions. Lions walking in Heraldry are known as ‘ lions passant ‘. The French were really the go to authority in Christendom and in French Heraldry the lion passant is always referred to as a leopard which is where this comes from but they are definitely lions.

    108. wull says:

      I once knew an Orange-man from Yorkshire – born and bred there – who worked in Africa for a couple of years. While there, he fell in love with an African lady and married her. It was decades ago, and at that time marriages like this were more rare than they are now, not least in Yorkshire housing estates. And ignorance and prejudice about race were not lacking.

      So he was a bit worried about the reception his wife would get from his relatives when he took her home so he could introduce her to them. When I later asked him how it had gone, he said it had turned out fine. They liked her and accepted her, no bother. He looked very relieved, and I thought I had understood why his previous anxiety seemed to have gone.

      Then he whispered to me: ‘Of course I never told them she’s a Catholic. No one must ever let on about that. And I warned her never ever to mention it. If my family ever found that out, that would be the end of everything! Luckily they don’t know. And must never know!’.

      That was what had been making him so anxious all along.

      What is all this ‘sectarianism’?

      When you think about it, it’s another form of xenophobia. A very visceral form of it. And just as bad, if not worse. Orange Walks deliberately routed to make Catholics feel uncomfortable … Their whole purpose being to make these fellow citizens insecure in places that are actually their homes … As if they had no right to be there … ‘This is our territory, not yours: Get out of here!’ …

      Where have you heard about all that kind of thing before? Where, and how did xenophobia flourish in that oh-so-civilized mid-20th Century?

      It’s not actually about religion: it’s about territory, and tribe. ‘Us’ against ‘them’. ‘This is OUR territory, NOT yours!’ And the mentality underneath it is very very similar to – if not exactly the same as -the extreme Brexiteer mentality … ‘This is OUR territory (or ‘country’): Foreigner, Go Home!’

      It’s even very like Mrs May’s deepest and most important red line: the anti-immigration one.

      Orangemen identify themselves as ‘British’. They ARE ‘the British’, in their own feeble minds – Loyal Brits to a man (and woman)! And they identify Catholics as ‘the Non-British’, even ‘the Anti-British’ or, simply, ‘The Enemy of all things truly Brit’. And they hate them for that. At bottom, true-Brit Orange-ists and true-Brit Brexiteers have much in common: they are fundamentally the same kind of xenophobes. Fuelled, finally, by very similar hatreds.

      In fact, Brexit played into the one and same mentality. A mentality which you find in some parts of England just as you find it among some people in Scotland, even though it might express itself slightly differently from place to place. And to different degrees in different people.

      Orange-ism is one particular (and particularly virulent) expression of that mentality, standing at one extreme end of it. But there are other extreme ends of it as well, which you can find all over England. The mentality in question now has a name: you can call it ‘the extreme-Brit’ mentality.

      The Orange Order has got that mentality. So does Tommy Robinson. Nigel Farage (despite the fact that his surname sounds more Arabic than English) has it. So too does Teresa May. Boris Johnson (despite the fact that his grandfather was Turkish) played into it, and played it up, to his undying shame.

      This extreme-Brit mentality is the opposite of modern Scottish nationalism. With its inclusive and civic moorings, the Scottish nationalism of today is nothing like it. The Extreme-Brits don’t realise this, and can’t understand, so they continually misconstrue contemporary Scottish nationalism as a blood-and-soil thing, which it clearly isn’t. They are projecting their own blood-and-soil ‘extreme-Brit’ mentality onto us, when in fact it has nothing to do with us.

      Such unwarranted projection demonstrates how deeply mired in their own ‘blood-and-soil’ nationalism the ‘extreme-Brits’ actually – and sadly – are. They see themselves in other people. Instead of examining themselves in order to face up to their own failures and defects, they project their own virulent badness (or diseases) outwards, thereby exonerating themselves.

      They feverishly bolster their own whitewashed and self-justificatory image of themselves by vilifying and denigrating us. Nothing new here – it’s all been done before. Read 20th Century history – in particular, the horrors of it.

      With regard to the SNP, we shouldn’t forget how its moorings in a civic and inclusive form of nationalism were established. This happened definitively, and above all, through adopting the thoroughly modernising notion of ‘independence in Europe’, as a fully-fledged and fully participatinmg European nation. .

      That move finally released the SNP from any vestiges of the old Brit mentality that until then still, somehow, held it back. It also delivered the SNP from a ‘kailyard sentimentalism’ that was parochial rather than genuinely national (and international), turning inwards instead of outwards, looking backwards rather than forwards.

      As a consequence of adopting a fully pro-European stance, the SNP really did become a Party, and independence potentially a concern, for ALL Scots. It could now attract new Scots as much as old Scots, Catholic Scots as well as Protestant Scots, Muslim Scots as well as secular and atheistic Scots, English Scots and immigrant Scots of all kinds, Scots of all kinds, with all kinds of backgrounds, from everywhere and anywhere.

      This was the birth of a Scotland belonging to all, and with which all Scots could identify.

      The SNP thus became the Party of the new Scotland – the Party of Scotland’s future. Moored and geared to that future, freely thirled to what WILL be, and not just what once was. Scottish nationalism was less and less associated with an out-of-date Romanticism that looked back with a sentimental tear to a misty-eyed past, and became a viable and vibrant force.

      It wasn’t just the oil and the new economic possibilities that did this; it involved a huge sea change in mentality. It brought to birth a nationalism that was also internationalist in outlook and socially of our own day and age, accompanied by a cultural and intellectual renaissance to match. And there was hope – without hope, nothing can happen. Despair and inertia are first cousins, and they play off and confirm each other.

      Commitment to future full EU membership as an independent nation – independence within the EU – made the SNP what it now is. Any ditching of it will be a backward step. There were other factors also involved, but that commitment was the definitive step that made the SNP the thoroughly inclusive expression of civic nationalism that it is today.

      We shouldn’t forget this. And we shouldn’t be surprised to find that what we and the SNP are now up against is its genuine ‘opposite’. That opposite – total opposite – is the ‘Brit mentality’ we have been talking about, the mentality we are now so painfully witnessing on constant display as the Brexit iceberg looms directly in front of us.

      This is the old Brit-Nat mentality which is currently fighting like a mad dog – (‘mad dogs and Englishmen!’ come to mind) – to survive. It does so in total denial of the blatant and obvious fact that it has long since had its day. The world has moved on. It did so a long time ago. And no matter how hard the Mighty May and her unmerry band or Boris the Brexiteer and Muggins Mogg try, they cannot turn back the tide of history. A tide which, in fact, has already washed away the sand castle on which they have planted their tattered red, white and blue flag. Along with everything else they stand for, and are vainly trying to resurrect – the ghost of Englands past!

      Time and tide wait for no one.

      Just watch the Brexiteers (of whatever stripe) who are all over our screens – and Westminster politics – today. Fighting like ferrets in a sack (of their own making: they freely and willingly jumped into that sack themselves). And see them, and their Brit Nat mentality for what they really are.

      How that expresses itself here in Scotland may be externally different from how it expresses itself in England. But it’s exactly the same mentality underneath. The drum-bashing Orangemen parading in front of Catholic churches in Glasgow and the pin-striped sophisticates on the Brexiteer bandwagon in Westminster are all fundamentally of the same ilk. And share fundamentally the same slogans: ‘Foreigner, OUT!’ ‘This is OUR territory, NOT YOURS! OUT! OUT!’ ‘WE are in Control here: YOU have NO RIGHT TO EXIST here: OUT! OUT! OUT!’

      I don’t know if it’s true, but I am told that ‘slogan’ is a Gaelic-origin word meaning ‘battle-cry’. These people are at war. And the war they are waging is against their own neighbours.

      This is what blood-and-soil nationalism looks like, and it isn’t pretty. Whether it expresses itself as a movement to disunite Europe and rid ourselves of the hated foreigner in our midst, or as a movement to dis-lodge Catholics from our country and make them leave, it is one and the same xenophobic thing. One and the same uncivilized, anti-civic and unjust thing.

      What we are witnessing, whether in the halls of Westminster or soon, it seems, in the streets of Glasgow, is the very antithesis – the total opposite – of that civic nationalism which Scotland and the SNP have so rightly espoused. That same civic nationalism, allied as it is to an internationalist and pro-European perspective based not primarily on economic gain but on human rights, to which we must remain fully and unreservedly committed.

      We must oppose our antithesis in every civic and civil way possible. For the good of all. Don’t forget: ‘The Brit-Nat (Bull-) Dog has an Orange Tail’. Always did. Still has.

      Do you remember the 1930s? Of which we may currently be hearing a gradually increasing echo …

      Even as we watch the goings-on inside the crumbling Westminster parliament building. Even as we see pictures of those outside it making Nazi salutes … apparently unhindered by watching policemen …

      Take no pleasure in the disintegration that is happening down south, in the heartland of our southern neighbour. Don’t let anyone tell you that it couldn’t happen here …

      Be aware; be wary, and act! Before that little echo gradually increases a little bit more … and more … and still more … until, suddenly, before we know it, it has become a tidal wave, an unstoppable tsunami … which could overcome us all …

      Even the tail of an angry animal can do a lot of damage. And could even encourage others to do likewise. What isn’t nipped in the bud remains on course for flowering fully …

    109. Cubby says:

      Dr Doom @2.52pm

      Yes we get your message. Scotland is doomed. Doomed I tell you, doomed forever to have religious hatred and orange order marches.

      Doomed I tell you doomed. Not like the nice friendly civilised people in England. Yes we get your anti Scotland message every time you post Dr Doom.

      English defence league – are nice people in Dr Dooms world because Tommy Robinson does Morris dancing.

      No delusions about Dr Dooms agenda.

    110. Legerwood says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      6 April, 2019 at 5:32 pm

      “”Anyone know if the Church of Scotland are still wedded to British nationalism?””
      ……

      Was it ever? After the Treaty of Union when the Patronage Act was passed and applied to the CofS against the terms of the Treaty they petitioned Parliament on an annual basis to repeal the legislation and raised two expensive cases in the Court of Session to try to get the Act repealed. And of course there were the two seccesions from the Church because of it. The first in the 1730s and the Great Disruption in the 1840s when almost half the congregations left the CofS and around 10% of the ministers. Thus the Free Church of Scotland was formed.

      The Act was repealed around the 1870s and full right restored to the congregation and Church to conduct it’s own affairs.

      No monarch has ever been head of the CofS and the church has gone to great lengths to maintain that position even to the extent of dismissing some venues for the General Assembly because it would mean the monarch’s representative crossing the floor of the Assembly. An absolute no no.

      The Church has also taken position on issues that by no means fit with Britnat sensibilities. For example, it very publicly and vocally supported the Scottish Government when it released Megrahi. Another example would be its position on nuclear weapons. A position Lord MacLeod of Fuinary campaigned for and was ultimately successful.

      These are a few examples of the top of my head but over the centuries the position the CofS has taken on various issues have rattled the British State.

    111. wull says:

      AS a PS to the above post of mine at 6.21 pm, without undermining the main point, I should add that not all Brexiteers and pro-Brexit people are tarred with the same brush. The same goes for Orangemen – and Orangewomen. I have met not a few Orange people and not a few pro-Brexit Brexiteers, and people (including plenty of Scots) who identify themselves very much as British, with whom I have got on perfectly well, and whom I genuinely like and respect.

      Not all are the same.

      My criticism is of the general thrust and direction of these movements, not of every individual who is associated with them, or committed to them. I accept that it is possible to hold such commitments without fully understanding the negative elements they contain, or seeing how deeply defective and misguided they are, or appreciating what they might lead to.

      If we certainly must not minimise the dangers of these movements, neither should we demonise those who are convinced or taken in by them. They are not demons, but neighbours, and we have obligations towards them, even civic obligations.

      It is possible to be mistaken without being of ill will, or deliberately evil intention. Our aim must always be to improve social life and encourage social cohesion through peaceful, lawful and reasonable means, for the benefit of all. Including those who see things differently from ourselves.

    112. Bobp says:

      ‘The houses of parliament’. An anagram for ‘loonies far up the thames’. Says it all really. Scotland are you awake?.

    113. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      Dreadful article in the Spectator about Ireland and the Francophonie, but then I saw the end:

      “Robert Hardman is a Daily Mail writer and author of Queen of the World (Century).”

      There’s a poster in The National quoted the Daily Mail quoting the Daily Express about the EU Junckers and the euro as though it was fact!

      It takes all sorts of lack of intelligence.

    114. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Put this up on Twitter earlier today:

      ‘Whether you are a remain or leave voter, would you support the prosecution of the British govt for criminal negligence?’

      Yes or No.

      500 votes cast so far, 98% Yes.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      Legerwood
      Well I think it’s time they re-assessed just who should be the rightful recipients of their loyalty, and acknowledge fundamental moral principals. There is no moral justification for Scotland’s subjugation by totalitarian (English) government, and the church must protect its’ congregation or forfeit any moral credibility it still retains.

    116. Ottomanboi says:

      Ending the union will cut the throat of sectarianism. A swift cut and Scotland’s people can begin to climb out of the the British midden.

    117. twathater says:

      Liz g 5.48pm yes I do agree that there has to be constraints on regressive public votes and opinions but just like the right to die discussion , avoiding people’s views does not make it the right decision . I have my own view on capital punishment as you do but I genuinely believe that sentencing is favouring the perpetrator rather than the victim , but that is another discussion

      I also agree with your response to Gala ,I listened to WGD podcast with Calum Baird and he , WGD also raised this constant delay and the need for Scotland’s independence not to be at the mercy of treezas deliberate delay machinations
      In response to WGD’s statement I was annoyed to hear Calum Bairds reply ( I paraphrase ) that Nicola would have to ask for PERMISSION soon , it is frustrating when you have the editor of the National misquoting this rubbish

    118. Iona Easton says:

      Absolutely fantastic cartoon!

    119. wull says:

      Good post, Legerwood at 6.23, for which many thanks. You are quite right. Some of the best and strongest campaigners against nuclear weapons in Scotland have been Church of Scotland ministers.

      It is also true that the Church and Nation Committee of the Church of Scotland has often had some very appropriate and forward-looking things to say about social and political issues of the day. We would all do well to pay heed to these, including those like myself who are not C of S members.

      When there no Scottish parliament sat between 1707 and 1999, the General Assembly of the C of S played an important role in keeping Scotland’s distinctive political culture alive, even within the Union. Obviously, not everyone would agree with its every decision (that would also be true among its own membership), and in retrospect it is always easy to see mistakes or to judge harshly a previous epoch by the standards and values of today.

      Yet the many good things that were done, and positive stances that were taken, should be acknowledged. And widely so, not just by Scots within the C of S but also by Scots of other denominations and other religions, and indeed those of no church and no faith at all. It is too easy, and very ungenerous to pick out a few mistaken decisions here and there, from the past, that almost everyone today would eschew and blame the C of S for its role in them. The good also needs to be attended to, and picked out.

      Although I have no expertise whatsoever in the matter, I am confident that a proper historical study of the sources would indicate that the good done far outweighs whatever blemishes might also be turned up. To my mind, we have to start thinking this way, not just with regard to whatever particular religious or non-religious groups we belong and adhere but, especially in regard to other such groups in Scottish society. The future we are hoping for, and will have to build after independence is achieved, has to become increasingly inclusive and increasingly tolerant. Modern Scotland is very diverse: independence is not going to change that but will, instead, we very much hope, help it to flourish.

      That means flourishing together, despite all our differences of opinion and deeply held views. Which should remind us of the fact that although we have to be focused on gaining independence now – and that is work enough for the meantime – the real work will begin after independence is achieved.

      Thank you once again, Legerwood, for informing us and helping to keep us right on a few things.

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve never read such nonsense in my life as I’ve read in this thread. Send the Union Jack back? What? Eh? We’ll need it to fly above Bute House or wherever, whenever the foreign head of state or government of the rUK comes back to visit.

      What we’ll do with all the rest of the Union Jacks I don’t know, I guess we could send them back, though hotels and such like to fly a foreign flag when there’s a guest from there staying.

    121. ben madigan says:

      with regards to Orange Order Parades/Walks /Marches – I agree it would be hard and counterproductive to ban them but in keeping with their right to express their Kultur . . .

      they can be re-routed – out of cities, towns and villages and on to remote country/mountain roads, where they can march day in, day out as long as they want, attended by “true supporters”, as long as they pay for police, security and clean-up at the venue

      They will no longer disturb the general population who will be free to go about their usual law-abiding activities

    122. Liz g says:

      twathater @ 6.55
      It would certainly be some discussion 🙂 I’m all for tougher sentences,and the right to die.But I’m a huge advocate for the loss of liberty being the punishment and therefore prisoner’s rights.
      The main thrust of my train of thought is what powers do I want the government to have over me and mine in any circumstances?… AkA The person dividing the food eats last…
      But you’re right it’s a discussion for another time and place.
      Anyhoo..
      I also listened to Wee Ginger Dugs podcast and never picked up on Calum Baird saying that, well spotted!
      It’s bloody annoying when this stuff happens,but I guess with the way we’ve all been indoctrinated towards the narrative of the British State it’s probably unavoidable!
      Don’t you find yourself having to constantly re- translate the phrases in yer head to get away from writing and speaking that way too…
      Great fun correcting the kids though 🙂 I can make them roll their eyes almost continuously :-)…
      But its working!!!

    123. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 7.16
      Well ye worked yer way through the nonsense in one short post ,well done you…
      Of course we’d keep some for “occasions” ,it would be daft to have to buy new one’s… Duh…
      But we would only need as many copies as we had for all the other Countries…and as you said yerself.. there would be some spare,we already spoke about burning them being stupid so …. Sending them back seems the correct thing to do,don’t ye think?

    124. Fireproofjim says:

      Re Orange marches. Don’t ban them but let them march round and round the Ibrox track, Surely everybody would be happy with that.

    125. CameronB Brodie says:

      One of the most effective means of tackling crime is to fight social marginalisation and exclusion. Inclusiveness and social resilience reduce incentives for crime. Brexit will feed the causes of crime.

    126. crazycat says:

      @ Clootie at 12.32

      I’ve been out all day, so only just seen your post.

      Yesterday I was speaking to my çontact from AUOB. It sounds as if they would be very grateful for your vests, but she didn’t know how to let you know.

      I suggested that she post on here, but she has not yet done so as far as I can see. They do have a Facebook page, if you can access that.

    127. Capella says:

      ICYMI from Stu’s twitter – permanent sunshine written by AL Kennedy and performed by Scott Reid. Brilliant. 4 min

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2XNQYR-2BY

    128. Iain mhor says:

      @Golnut 6:20pm & @Scott Finlayson

      An interesting wee O/T from the usual.
      Yes, since Henry & Richard it was definitely lions and as agreed, Lions are indeed a well known heraldic emblem. The whole leopard thing is rather odd though and leads down interesting avenues.
      From the Greek ‘Pardos’ for a panther like cat, where “Leopard” itself is an amalgam of “leon” = lion & “pardos” = panther – Similarly the latin “Leo” and Pardus (or Pardulus) a Leopard is literally a “Lion-Panther”
      Today lions are in the genus “Panthera” (Panthera Leo Leo being the Western Cape Lion) Bearing in mind also, that although such beasts as lions and panthers had been witnessed by few people directly, outside exotic captives, the Barbary Lions of North Africa & Egypt would not have been unfamiliar to travellers – so perhaps it really is just linguistics rather than the unlikely scenario of being too dumb to know what a lion was.

      It’s not beyond argument to suggest that the French “Leopard” was attempting to adhere to a nascent taxonomic description where the English utilised the truncated “Lion” as the specific species in the Panthera genus, such that there should be no confusion – It may well have been a source of contention even at the time.

      Yeah bugger all to do with Indy or Brexit but it’s nice to take a breather.

    129. Fireproofjim says:

      Sending back the Union Jack to RUK would be pointless. It will no longer take the same form when the dark blue of Scotland is removed. No one will want the old design.

    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      Public policy that undermines national economic performance and social cohesion encourages crime, so is doubly immoral.

      Theories and causes of crime
      http://www.sccjr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SCCJR-Causes-of-Crime.pdf

    131. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 18:23,
      wull @ 19:06,

      Good posts both of you. With the very vocal presence of a minority of extreme bigots whose actual allegiance to religous entities is typically tenuous at best, it is often overlooked that the C of S was over centuries the sole inspiration towards democratic participation in social affairs and the active promoter of general public education. It is no exaggeration to say that between them, the Kirk and the climate created the Scots character as we recognise it – and with due reservations – mostly appreciate it today.

      Excessive public disputatiousness included! =grin=

    132. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Wull (6.21, 6.40) –

      Excellent comments there, cheers.

      😉

    133. Mad Unionist says:

      The cartoon above could possibly be described as homophobic. Arlene is a woman and it should say LLOL on her collarette. Attention to detail is important.

    134. wull says:

      ben madigan @ 7.19, I agree with you on the principle that re-routing the Orange marches is what needs to be done, at least for now. I am not sure how practical it is to put them out in the countryside. It would be nice if more than a wee bit unrealistic to think that a breath of fresh air might help to clear up the marchers’ (rather confused?) minds.

      You will have seen what manandboy says at 3.30 pm: ‘There are Catholic churches in only 2% of Glasgow’s streets.
      By a remarkable coincidence, the only streets in Glasgow suitable for Orange parades are those same streets.’

      If that is right – and I have no reason to doubt it – the real question is this: Why do the authorities in Glasgow permit the Orange walkers to pass through precisely these streets? And why don’t the police object to it, and prevent it?

      Passing in fron of Catholic churches is obviously intended as a provocation. There is no good reason for allowing it. I have seen the same thing also happening in other places, for instance in some parts of Ayrshire.

      Attempting to stir up or obstruct fellow citizens, who are going about their perfectly legitimate business (they want to pray peacefully in their church), is not a legitimate expression of anyone’s ‘Kulture’. That would be self-evident to anyone, especially anyone in the EU (since Liz also pointed out that the EU protects cultural rights). Catholics also have a ‘cultural right’ to pray in the way they deem fit, without being harrassed or unnecessarily disturbed.

      Surely the civil authorities have good reason for sorting this out in a way that would be entirely legal, and which would ensure that Orange marches are re-routed to avoid going past Catholic churches.

      I know one place where they actually time their march so that it arrives in front of the Catholic church just as worshipers are arriving to pray, and they stop marching and stand there for a considerable amount of time. So as to obstruct people from crossing the street at that point, which they want to do in order to enter their church. It’s obviously deliberate. And the polis stand idly by.

      Mind you, it’s a couple of years since I saw that – maybe (aye, maybe! that’ll be richt!) they no longer do it! Re-routing would not be such a difficult thing to do.

    135. Lenny Hartley says:

      Wull, top class cmments thanks

    136. Liz g says:

      Fireproof jim @ 7.41
      I suspect they won’t remove the dark blue at all!
      They are too invested in the jack as a recognizable brand.
      It’s always really ment England to them anyway
      It’s no something I can see any reason to object to either.
      Our Saltire is a different shade of blue,although i did like the darker blue better,it’s really just a brand too!

    137. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Wull –

      It’s not just Catholic churches.

      Back in 2014, just weeks before indyref1, the main OO march through Irvine made a point of stopping right outside the Yes shop on the main street and giving it laldy. Someone else will be able to confirm this, but if memory serves there was only one volunteer in the shop that Saturday and she became alarmed enough to lock the door.

    138. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Has anyone heard anything about the OO march in Inverness?

    139. Legerwood says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 7.44pm

      That is very much my opinion too. An under-appreciated contribution in shaping Scotland and its attitudes.

    140. ben madigan says:

      OO marches harass catholic worshippers, Yes shops etc
      They also inconvenience ordinary people who are in town for shopping, socialising etc
      They prevent businesses from carrying on their usual trading.
      They would certainly constitute a “noise disturbance” if they marched through a residential area

      I am glad to see we agree they should be re-routed – so the options are to holod them in a remote, isolated area or to have a closed (ticketed) event in a stadium-like structure, which they would have to pay to rent and cover all associated costs like police, security, clean-up etc.

      Bet being hit with those expenses would soon reduce the number of OO marches

    141. Cactus says:

      The balance of powers…

      Frae up above ye can see Scotland has our modern day Parliament ’19

      Down below, there is… the lodger the lorder and the loonier!

      Hey it’s almost like Laurel n Hardy n the dude wae tash

      Ah wonder where LOL112 actually is?

      Beware of the 18′ century

      They’re all stuck in seventeen something

    142. Ben Starav says:

      Wonder if the leader of the DUP would agree with the Baron of Drumlean that the British Border in Northern Ireland is not an issue.

    143. Cactus says:

      Saturday night…

      If you’re at a loose end tonight, you should check out JJ’s Big Intro Quiz Show, playing soon on indylive.radio

    144. Cactus says:

      Here’s the deets:

      Begins at 9pm till midnight, every single night

      https://indylive.radio/

      The names are all beginning to log-in

      Request a song to PLAY from here (simultaneous broadcasting)
      http://webcomradio.co.uk/

      jabberwocky is your radio host

    145. Liz g says:

      Wull @ 8.00
      As I understand it…
      They claim the “kultural” right to march the Queens Highways,any of them…
      Which is why they kick off when prevented from doing so in N.Ireland.
      It could be argued both way as well,when it comes to the council’s giving permission for a route.
      Either the Council sympathies with them and will allow them the route of their choice,and Labour Councils like to keep that particular pot boiling…
      Or
      The Council is trying to avoid the same sort of standoff that the nutters in N.Ireland have…. Which would make sense as it’s only (I know) about 50ft of Church they can pass here,where as its whole communities they pass through in N.Ireland
      Also… The intimidation aint what it used to be and the police arent as on board with it as they once were either.
      So IMHO,why give them a cause to fight for,the thing that they’ve been searching for in Scotland for year’s,their repression.
      To coin a phrase and put it to better use “now is not the time”.
      They are on the backfoot now.They never used to have to proclaim peace and be accountable for their own behaviours!
      Their Orange fest in Glasgow wasn’t exactly successful.
      No one really wants to know anymore…and they know it!

      Any attempt to deal with them now will only suit Westminster and Ruth the mooth is good to go with it!!
      They will, I think, get worse in the next year or two,and they will be encouraged to think every no voter from 2014 agrees with them..
      But
      They will never be able to go back to the intimidation of Catholics here as they did in the past,as you said we have all moved on!And you tube is our friend 🙂

      These marches are now reduced to Trolling Catholics and annoying drivers and shoppers.They should be treated as the utter embarrassment they are,till we’re sure they don’t have the back up of the British State…Which means Indy First!

    146. Clootie says:

      Crazycat

      Thanks for getting back to me.
      I can access the Facebook page but can not see any contact point.

    147. Dr Jim says:

      Susan Brown is the moderator of the Church of Scotland and is *not unfavourable to Scottish Independence if that’s the wish of the Scottish people and after all the church is here to serve the people* (a paraphrased statement)

      She’s actually on record a few times saying it

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g “Sending them back seems the correct thing to do,don’t ye think

      But Liz, think of all the museums that could be given them free for their exhibitions! They’d have to be given instructions as to display of course, or they’d hang them upside down …

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      Just catching the drift of the CofS comments, and I’ve always considered them to be defenders of the identity of Scotland, playing an important part in us getting our devolution for instance. A bit disappointed they didn’t come out for Indy, but there’s time yet. No, I’m not a member, but they do earn respect at times.

    150. crazycat says:

      @ Clootie

      I’ll see if I can find anything out tomorrow afternoon, when I’ll be at another meeting.

      I’m not expecting anyone from AUOB to be there, but I might be able to get contact details, rather than relying on chance encounters.

      Alternatively there might be people there who are organising the Ayr march with AUOB help, and they might liaise with you.

      I’ll try to update you tomorrow evening.

    151. Dr Jim says:

      Scottish culture like most cultures of every country is an amalgamation of picked up bits from around the world and adopted and altered to suit the bits already existing

      Unlike England whose culture was to stamp out everyone else’s culture and replace it with obedience to them and a far away great white mother Queen, or punishment

      So pretty much the same as today

    152. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: the shade of blue of the Saltire.

      This is from:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

      “These variations in shade eventually led to calls to standardise the colour of Scotland’s national flag,[13] and in 2003 a committee of the Scottish Parliament met to examine a petition that the Scottish Executive adopt the Pantone 300 colour as a standard. (Note that this blue is of a lighter shade than the Pantone 280 of the Union Flag).
      Having taken advice from a number of sources, including the office of the Lord Lyon King of Arms, the committee recommended that the optimum shade of blue for the Saltire be Pantone 300.[14] Recent versions of the Saltire have therefore largely converged on this official recommendation. (Pantone 300 is #005EB8 as hexadecimal web colours.)”

      It also says,
      “In the case of the Saltire, variations in shades of blue have resulted in the background of the flag ranging from sky blue to navy blue.
      When incorporated as part of the Union Flag during the 17th century, the dark blue applied to Union Flags destined for maritime use was possibly selected on the basis of the durability of darker dyes,[11] with this dark blue shade eventually becoming standard on Union Flags both at sea and on land.
      Some flag manufacturers selected the same navy blue colour trend of the Union Flag for the Saltire itself, leading to a variety of shades of blue being depicted on the flag of Scotland.”

      I’m happy with Pantone 300 for OUR flag.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd4YFC4U0AAh4VU.jpg

    153. crazycat says:

      @ Clootie

      I’ve just had another, much more sensible, idea.

      If you send your contact details to yeseastayrshire (at) gmail (dot) com, I’ll find a way to pass them on.

    154. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t worry if you’ve got a dark blue Saltire, wae global warming it’ll bleach in the Scottish sun we’re gonnae get

      Why is every Yoon troll blurting on about “our family of nations” every five minutes, we were never ever in our history a family of any such thing, because none of the nations of Scotland Wales and Ireland were ever treated as “Family” we were only ever for the use of or killed

      Who do these Yoons think they’re trying to kid wae this nonsense rewriting of historical Britishness again

    155. wull says:

      Thanks Ian @ 8.06 pm for that piece of information. Interesting. Didn’t know about that sort of action on their (the OO’s) part, though I do remember the way they ‘charged’ the peaceful Yes supporters gathered in George Square after Indyref1. I was driving at the time, and listened to it live on the radio.

      The BBC reporter on the spot had been describing the entirely peaceful, if somewhat sad and despondent, scene. As the defeated Yes supporters filled George Square and commiserated with each other. He was utterly taken aback, however, when the disturbance started.

      And he said very clearly that this was an unprovoked and violent attack launched simultaneously from different sides of the square by clearly identifiable OO people on the Yes supporters. In fact, right from its beginning, he was giving a startling blow by blow account of it.

      At one point it sounded like he himself came very near to being attacked by the aggressors and bludgeoned by them. His description was so clear that this was all the doing of the OO that – guess what? – the BBC quickly pulled him, and went quickly back to the calm of their studio. No more live commentary from him. (No doubt, he was being too truthful). Unfortunately, I never got his name, so I don’t know who he was.

      Very quickly, the same station, having switched into discussion mode, put out a ‘sanitised’ and completely changed version of the story. Without any reference to, or reportage from their reporter on the spot. He had clearly been made to vanish.

      Instead, in the new (concocted – sorry, ‘evenly-balanced’!!!) account, fighting had now broken out between the two camps in the Square. There was no longer the slightest mention of the obviously organised OO charge which their reporter had witnessed and so clearly described, even as it had happened. Instead, they made it seem that the Yes supporters were as much or even more to blame than anyone on the other side for any disturbance taking place.

      It is important for BBC reporting to be ‘balanced’, after all, and ‘even-handed’. It doesn’t have any ‘bias’ after all – not even towards the truth, or the facts.

      Then they brought on Menzies Campbell (‘Lord Ming of the Midden’ as I suppose he now is?) who went ‘tut tut tut, isn’t it terrible what these terrible Yes people are doing?’, and he – who had never been anywhere near the event – made it sound as if it had been entirely the fault of the Yes supporters. And he just kept ‘tut tut tutting’ along as he spouted out his entirely made-up, purely fictitious, factually-devoid garbage about how it was all the fault of the Yes supporters for not accepting the result.

      And, of course, the BBC let him spout away, and on and on …

      I shouldn’t have been but, to be honest, at the time I was totally shocked by such blatant mendacity and manipulation of the facts by the BBC. The programme controllers back in the studio were definitely aware of what had really happened, because their reporter on the spot had described it, but they cynically and deliberately suppressed it. And twisted the whole story into something completely different.

      It was so blatant, especially since their reporter had described what was really happening in some considerable detail. And indeed just as it happened – he was right there, in the thick of it all.

      For once, they had their man in the right place at the right time – it should have been a terrific scoop – and what did they do with it? They pulled him. And changed the story, to make sure it never got out. It was truly disgraceful … And to this day, I don’t know the name of this reporter. And I don’t think anyone does.

      Wasn’t I naive to be so shocked? It’s the same BBC, after all, that went on to give incessant publicity to Nigel Farage. There he was, week after week, the BBC giving him all the oxygen he and his mad cause needed and wanted. Even though he had lost every election for Westminster he ever stood for, and his Party had hardly a single seat there. He was a good performer. Good entertainment. Good for the ratings. What a travesty – the news, and politics, as entertainment for the masses.

      The maddest and most extreme Brit-Nat Brexiteers and the OO might look on the outside like two very different things, but on the inside they are blood brothers. Blood-and-soil brothers. And joined at the hip.

      Why should I have been surprised?

      I should have remembered where Enoch Powell of ‘rivers of blood’ fame ended up after he lost his seat in Wolverhampton … Northern Ireland, wasn’t it? Representing whom? And what?

      What the UK is experiencing now is like a shadow that has been secretly following me virtually all of my life-time, with me hardly even noticing it … It’s been coming slowly but surely for a long time. … And now it suddenly feels as if it’s coming down the tracks towards us like an out-of-control and unstoppable express train …

      Still, let’s hope not! Let’s hope disaster can still be averted. Or at least mitigated. Always hope, and keep trying – and never despair. Don’t let inertia take over. There is still everything to play for. And action to be pursued …

    156. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. English/British culture.

      Cultural Studies and the Sociology of Culture
      https://www.rochester.edu/in_visible_culture/issue1/wolff/

      Human Communication in the British Cultural Studies Tradition
      https://people.ucalgary.ca/~rseiler/british.htm

      British Cultural Studies, Active Audiences and the Status of Cultural Theory
      An Interview with David Morley

      https://research.gold.ac.uk/4409/1/TCS_Intvw_2011.pdf

      The culture question: a view from the UK
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2016.1156720

    157. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Wull.

      Probably the bravest thing to happen on the 19th was the display of the Saltire by Sarah and Sophie Johnston.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9wPS78Xh6E

      Having met the pair of them at subsequent rallies in Glasgow and Edinburgh, both of them had no idea just how iconic their bravery had become.

    158. Mad Unionist says:

      You lot seem more concerned about a parade that takes place and probably passes in a few few minutes. Rather than a church that has buggered millions of children and exploited women in workhouses. And of course the support for Hitler and Mussolini.

    159. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      stamp out everyone else’s culture and replace it with obedience to them and a far away great white mother Queen

      Macaulayism was a significant part of it.

      ” Macaulayism refers to the policy of ostensibly eliminating indigenous culture through the planned substitution of the alien culture of a colonizing power via the education system. “

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaulayism

      Though it has to be said that it’s a common aspect of imperial nationalism practiced my most dominant powers.

    160. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 8.58
      Well then,we’re gonnay need a lot more museums 🙂

    161. Cactus says:

      Ahm in pieces, “Bits n Pieces…” it’s a quiz

      2200hrs tonight Scotland:
      https://indylive.radio/

      Everytime:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JhsUFuqbCM

      If you feel nothing from the above song, you are emotionally mort 🙂

    162. galamcennalath says:

      After Independence, who will the Loyalist show loyalty to? A foreign state?

    163. wull says:

      Thanks to Liz G @ 8.54 for your response, which I enjoyed. You certainly make good points which are well worth my own and other people’s consideration. I am not sure whether I’ll end up agreeing or not, or to what extent, but that’s not the only point: it’s always good to hear and listen to other points of view. Especially reasonable, polite and well put ones.

      That’s how we learn from each other – and it’s a pleasure, to learn in a pleasant way. And to see how other people are thinking, even when their way of seeing things might be different from ours.

      Thanks also to everyone else who said something to me directly, whether today or at any other time, or who posted lots of things that have given me lots of food for thought. We are always learning, and I find this site still provides a great opportunity and forum for that. I have to stop now for the night – early start tomorrow. Thanks again, to all.

    164. Liz g says:

      Wull @ 9.45
      Good night Wull and right back at ye my friend.

    165. Ian Foulds says:

      galamcennalath says:
      6 April, 2019 at 9:45 pm
      After Independence, who will the Loyalist show loyalty to?

      Would that not still be Lizzie or her heir, presuming we don’t immediately become a Republic, as she/he will still be Queen or King of Scots – with no doubt obligations to stay here for 6 months per year?

    166. wull says:

      And, afore I go, thanks to Brian @ 9.29, including for the link … You’re right – brave indeed. And, by what you’re telling me, with the modesty that always accompanies genuine bravery … Now, time to go …

    167. galamcennalath says:

      Now here’s an interesting wee OO story …

      ” Another symbolic milestone in the peace process will be reached tomorrow when the grandson of one of Ireland’s most iconic republicans will announce the State’s first substantial grant to the Orange Order.”

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ó-cu%C3%ADv-grants-250-000-to-promote-orange-order-1.890793

    168. Confused says:

      revs twitter – picture of woman shitting in a urinal – WTF?
      – apparently, pissing is political – this explains things a bit
      https://www.unz.com/ishamir/toilet-wars/

    169. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Wull –

      Dunno if you were a WOS reader at the time, but Rev Stu was watching ‘George Square’ in real-time that day via a live feed (from RT, perhaps?) and he actually tweeted a warning to the Yes people to get out – it was clear that the victors were organised. They arrived at the square within a very short time, from different sides. The Yes people were, effectively, kettled.

      The night before, at the count in The Citadel, Ayr, when it became clear that we had lost, I said to the observer who represented the Green Party (lovely big dude who is, seriously, Billy Connolly’s nephew) ‘What the fuck is going to happen in George Square tomorrow?’ because I, for one, had been expecting a major party and knew folk who were planning to go there.

      FWIW, I do believe that those BTUKOK ‘supporters’ were a combination of off-duty/retired squaddies and the more agile OO members. I also believe that some of the same characters have, since 2014, been masquerading as an indy-supporting group in order to infiltrate the Yes movement. They’re provocateurs, and will use violence/false flags to discredit the movement as and when indyref2 starts coming over the hill.

      We’ve got to be ready for them.

    170. Gedboy says:

      Re Lions in Heraldry…

      A lion properly is always rampant, as in the Scottish lion. The lion rampant shows nobility and courage. A lion not shown in this manner is not a lion.

      The English lion is actually a leopard: the adulterous result of a liaison between a Pard (a mythical creature) and a Lion. The leopard is also barren, due to the immoral nature of its creation. The Leopard is a sleekit animal because of this and is often used in the heraldic devices for the illegitimate offspring of nobility

    171. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. these toilet wars. This is what happens when men try to colonise “woomanhood” by misappropriating the terminology of third-wave feminism to justify the rejection of biological science and reason. Some nerdy stuff, for a change. 🙂

      Safe spaces for women, by women, bring smart infrastructure for all
      http://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/3/feature-story-building-safe-spaces

      Designing Safe Cities for Women
      https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollective/designing-safe-cities-women/1052876/

      Rohan Chavan’s public toilets aim to provide a safe socialising space for women
      https://www.dezeen.com/2016/08/19/rohan-chavan-public-toilets-india-safe-space-women/

      Gender, urban space, and the right to everyday life
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07352166.2016.1255526

    172. Ben Starav says:

      Clootie @ 12.32

      Try https://www.allunderonebanner.scot

    173. Cactus says:

      Good evenin’ Gedboy ~

      First time ah’ve seen ye posting

      Have you and yours a fucking excellent weekend Gedboy!

      Have a fucking excellent weekend Wingers ’19

      Next quiz beings at the eleventh hour:
      https://indylive.radio/

      Hehe

    174. Cactus says:

      You should add these two links to your favourites list Scotland:

      https://indylive.radio/
      http://webcomradio.co.uk/

      Ye see, Scotland, THESE are the kinda things we CAN do

      2300hrs for yer next quiz

      Cheers WOS Boss

    175. galamcennalath says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      They’re provocateurs, and will use violence/false flags to discredit the movement as and when indyref2 starts coming over the hill.

      Started already? Like the alleged yobs outside Luke Graham’s office?

      We have all met loads of Indy supporters in the real world and nowhere at anytime have I encountered anyone who would contemplate such actions.

      There might be pro Indy hooligans lurking somewhere, but we know for certain there are pro Union nutters!

    176. Craig P says:

      Beautiful picture of Holyrood but oh my! What trolls lurk beneath!

    177. Cactus says:

      Hey Craig P

      Quote that

      🙂

    178. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 10.07
      My friend and her husband (Indy bikers) were picking their daughter up that night and drove round the square.
      Obviously being stopped by the lights.
      They could see it all
      At,thankfully, the last set,their Yes car sticker was noticed!
      The clatty bastards covered their car in spit,not one Glaswegin voice among them…. Plenty Irish and some English!
      So yes, it won’t just be our home grown knuckle draggers we will be facing.
      I just hope we can keep a lid on our own hot heads,not to go with the Brittish playbook.
      They know violence they are good at violence,it’s us that scare them,it’s us they cannot handle!

    179. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says:6 April, 2019 at 7:16 pm:

      ” … We’ll need it to fly above Bute House or wherever, whenever the foreign head of state or government of the rUK comes back to visit.

      Strange that! Here was me thinking the kingdom of England, just like the Kingdom of Scotland had its own flag and it is the St George’s Cross.

      In any case when the Queen of England is anywhere they fly the English Royal oat of Arms but when she crosses the border they change her English coat of Arms to her Scottish coat of Arms and neither of her royal coats of Arms is the Butcher’s Apron.

      Of course her Royal Standard when in Scotland is the Lion Rampant. Far as I know there is no rUK flag and cannot be an rUK and if there was it wouldn’t be the Butcher’s apron as that is the United Kingdom Flag and after independence both the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England will be independent.

    180. Cactus says:

      Epiphany ’19… that’s it Scotland…

      “IF we cannae take over their signal receivin’ television…

      Wur takin’ ower the internet radio”

      How’s everybuddy hauding up?

      Ye aweright!

      https://indylive.radio/
      http://webcomradio.co.uk/

      “NEXT!” said Alex Harvey

    181. Cactus says:

      Hahaha Bad to the Bone

      Ah ken who REQUESTED that one

      Ah didnae think ye’d be listening in

      Cheers dude

      We’re bad

    182. stewartb says:

      Dr Jim @ 9:20 pm writes:

      ‘Why is every Yoon troll blurting on about “our family of nations” every five minutes, we were never ever in our history a family of any such thing, because none of the nations of Scotland Wales and Ireland were ever treated as “Family” ….’

      I agree. Of course the Tories especially shift from their ‘family of nations’ to an effective denial of this by pushing their ‘one nation’ – without any sense of the obvious illogicality of these two positions.

      Personally I recognise the historical and social links across these islands and could accept the concept of a ‘family of nations’ (and of states) – including the Republic of Ireland – if now based on mutual respect, an acknowledgement of historic wrongs, and new co-operation between the nations and countries across these islands, including between those that choose independence.

      However as an internationalist, there are other ‘families of nations’ beyond these islands that I recognise, respect and would wish an independent Scotland to contribute to and foster.

    183. Hamish100 says:

      Mad unionist– so much bile in one little person. Nae wonder you guys always look miserable,

    184. Craig P says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      6 April, 2019 at 9:01 pm

      Just catching the drift of the CofS comments, and I’ve always considered them to be defenders of the identity of Scotland, playing an important part in us getting our devolution for instance. A bit disappointed they didn’t come out for Indy,

      Are you not thinking of Canon Kenyon Wright of the Episcopal Church? He was a one-off though. The churches are reactionary to their core.

    185. Craig P says:

      wull says:
      6 April, 2019 at 9:21 pm

      Thanks Ian @ 8.06 pm for that piece of information. Interesting. Didn’t know about that sort of action on their (the OO’s) part, though I do remember the way they ‘charged’ the peaceful Yes supporters gathered in George Square after Indyref1. I was driving at the time, and listened to it live on the radio.

      The BBC reporter on the spot had been describing the entirely peaceful, if somewhat sad and despondent, scene. As the defeated Yes supporters filled George Square and commiserated with each other. He was utterly taken aback, however, when the disturbance started….

      Wull… that’s incredible. I had never heard of that on-the-spot BBC reportage that was pulled. Would love to find a recording of it.

      I hope that when it comes to the next referendum, we are smart enough to go all Gandhi on them and not rise to provocation.

    186. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.44
      We were speculating on the premise that the rest of the Britain would want to keep the Union Jack because of its brand value Robert and were talking about Government visits not Royal one’s.
      Funnily enough the Royal visits,as you pointed out have their own protocol…. The first time they’ve not been a problem..
      Well… what the protocol will be if Scotland becomes a republic who knows…
      But Anyhoo as I said it was a bit of banter about the Jack, is all 🙂

    187. Gary45% says:

      Ian Brotherhood@8.08
      We were down in the High Street earlier on in the day, we got home mid afternoon-ish and could hear the diddy drums up at the house,(just under 2 miles away).
      Inverness(the city where you can hear a coo fart five miles away).”slight exaggeration”.
      I believe they were passing the local Chapel, seems to be the regular route for all their “fair, un-bigoted, un-sectarian, family friendly, fun days out”!!!
      “There’s a chapul u’ll get ma flute and ma big diddy drum.”
      Simples.

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Ah well, yes, indeed. What flag would the rUK use, or as Michael Forsyth, subject of the cartoon, said in the House of Lords [1]:

      It is nice to have something on which to disagree with the noble Lord. In 1603, we had the union of the Crowns [2]. In 1707, we had the union of the Parliaments. The kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England ceased to exist in 1707 because the United Kingdom was created. Therefore, it is illiterate as well as misleading to suggest that there would still be a United Kingdom. If Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom would cease to exist. Whether or not the monarch went on to become the head of Scotland as head of state, the

      28 Feb 2012 : Column 1186

      relationship would be similar to that enjoyed by Canada and Australia, but it would certainly not mean that the United Kingdom continues.” (my bold)

      https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201212/ldhansrd/text/120228-0001.htm

      [1] Forget what that was going to be.

      [2] Yes, I know!

    189. yesindyref2 says:

      @Craig P
      I thought the CofS was involved in the Constitutional Convention as well, could be mistaken.

    190. Mad Unionist says:

      Hamish 100. I am happy you lot of perverts are not running Scotland and never will again. ? ? Child running for safety.

    191. Hamish100 says:

      You are very deluded with your bile. SNP are in charge and are running our country better than the tories in England and Labour are in Wales. I seemed to have upset you.Too bad.

    192. Cactus says:

      Take me to the magic of iScotland’s tomorrow!

      Glory Glory

      Bros.

      Sis

      1

    193. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh yeah, remembered what 1 was

      [1] I’d been waiting all day to do that one, while working and busy elsewhere!

    194. Dr Jim says:

      Corbyn says he’s got his guarantee of a jobs first Brexit so everything’s just great

      Now describe to me what a jobs first Brexit is then
      Will it be *strong and stable* or *broad shouldered* or maybe it’ll mean *Jobsit means Jobsit* well after all that’s what the *British* people voted for isn’t it

      Once again on Monday morning the HOC cabaret comedy show will Morris dance all over this

    195. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O?T
      Wee Annie frae Dundee was in the Forward Shop in Dunoon today.
      Quite a buzz!

    196. Fireproofjim says:

      Hamish 100
      This Mad Unionist seems a creepy little guy. No mates probably. Shame really.
      There were a lot of that ilk giving Nazi salutes in George Square on the 19th Sept I recall. They are not worth engaging with as their brains are rotted away with Orange/ Unionist propaganda.

    197. Liz g says:

      Dave McEwen Hill @ 11.41
      Wee Annie wi the Cowboy hat full of badges?

    198. Cactus says:

      Final scores comin’ in

      https://indylive.radio/

      Cheers jj

      LT

    199. Hamish100 says:

      Fireproofjim – suppose your right although I always believe attack is better than defence. After midnight so he will be hiding under rock.

    200. Cactus says:

      Hey, when Scotland is independent again and the UK ceases to be… they should turn that leaky Hoose of Commons intae a C-Listed building of Museum interest.

      Scrap the Hoose of Laurds and turn THAT place into their own English Parliament, wouldn’t that be cool! Everybuddy wid huv their ane hoose

      5 days on Friday till destruction People say yey!

      It’s Sunday ’19

    201. Liz g says:

      Cactus!
      I’m a people….can I say yay??

    202. Cactus says:

      Hey Liz, aye yeahy People, did ye check out the quiz show?

      Ye’ve been grand keepin’ the peace in here 😉

      Ahm gaun East again, soon…

    203. Cactus says:

      Ahm gaun for the Symphony

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2LG7JXK5mQ

      Of destruction

      We say yey

    204. Breeks says:

      If the Unionists cared about the Scottish part of their Union Jack, the blue would be Pantone 300, or at least pale sky blue.

      How many Union Jacks or labels have you seen like that?

    205. Mad Unionist says:

      Fireproofjim and his pal Hamish 100. The loyalist congregated in George Square on 19 September 2014 to celebrate and were met by Scottish /Irish and other odds and sod fascists who attempted to inflict physical damage. This is what happens when you have fanatical fascist Republicans and Nationalists who will stoop to violence.

    206. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 1.19
      Well Ah must admit,going East is no the same without Soup.
      Soup is important,making it and finding it equally!!
      Or are ye going further east?
      But either way happy trails my friend 🙂

    207. Cactus says:

      Aye Soup is key… be it yer hob, the fridge or yer freezer, soup is key
      (and a great lasagne)

      Ahm heading over to the other side of Mainland Scotland Liz

      There are coastal paths and caves to be walked

    208. Liz g says:

      Don’t forget to tell us of your adventures…
      It’s a much better path to peace on here than me…
      I was reduced to wondering how to send out a Cactus signal,and Batman never revealed how to do it ??
      Although I have a sneaky feeling that even he could not have found that soup 🙂
      Only Wingers have that power,it was bloody good soup wasn’t it!!!

    209. Cactus says:

      Aye THAT soup was perfect

      Sometimes a good soup just appears when ye least expect it

      Soup aye can consume 24/7 day, tis guid tae go wae soup

      Alike an excellent cup of tea, THAT soup was a 1 in six

      Ah trust yer havin’ an excellent weekend 😉

    210. Liz g says:

      I am that Cactus,most excellent thank you for asking…
      I hope you are too x
      Although now I think about it some soup would be just perfect!
      What say you Cactus!

    211. Cactus says:

      Ah ate the last of mah spicy lentil n veg tother day, ah need to make and store some more

      Been workin’ ma way thru some tasty channa and coriander salad

      Ye’ve motivated me to make more soup tomorrow (today)

      Fruits for me for breakfast

      Whit ye havin’?

    212. Liz g says:

      Either porridge or Red wine…
      Depends on what time is Breakfast 🙂

    213. Cactus says:

      Hehe what time is breakfast?

      Anytime we want it to be, or not to be…

      Dat is the question xx

    214. Breeks says:

      I don’t believe there is any realistic prospect of a long extension to the Brexit deadline. Europe will not open itself to disruption and interference from Europhobic right wing populists like those who have trashed the UK’s prospects.

      If Scotland is selecting candidates for Euro Elections, they will not be standing on a UK ticket but an Independent Scottish one.


      Guy Verhofstadt
      @guyverhofstadt
      ·
      5 Apr
      For those in the EU who may be tempted to further extend the #Brexit saga, I can only say, be careful what you wish for. ??
      Quote Tweet

      Jacob Rees-Mogg
      @Jacob_Rees_Mogg
      · 5 Apr
      If a long extension leaves us stuck in the EU we should be as difficult as possible. We could veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes.

      Europe can read the likes of Rees Mogg and Farage like a book, and Boris is just as predictable too. They all blame Europe when they cannot get everything their own way, but hubris blinds them to their own inability to negotiate collectively and make positive progress by compromise and consensus. If at first you don’t succeed, try petulance and sulking and throwing your toys out the pram. There never is a Plan B, just more tantrum throwing.

      If Rees-Mogg was earnestly concerned about the EU budget, an EU Army, and EU Internationalist schemes, all his master scheme has achieved is to silence his own opinion on such matters and leave himself isolated and irrelevant, and as far removed from statesmanlike as it is possible to be. What an ass.

    215. K1 says:

      ‘This is what happens when you have fanatical…’

      Liar.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/enough-is-enough/

    216. Liz g says:

      K1 @ 2.38
      Thanks.. As we can all see.. Nae families,nae goodwill nae getting on board with the reason to be there..
      Which as far as I can remember was..
      Yes or No there’s a party in the Square…
      We’ll no make that mistake again.
      If they need that Square so much after the Yes vote..They can have it.
      We’ll be having Scotland… We need a gathering for after the Yes vote for our young to party!!
      One safe and appropriate and not so vulnerable to the British!

    217. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 02:38,

      Oh, I think he means those fanatical republican separatists who are so crazed they idolise the Union Flag and can’t help giving Nazi salutes. =roll eyes=

    218. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 2.26
      It’s in our interest for some one to take a stand..
      At this point in time it can only be the EU..
      Here’s hoping,fingers x
      And yes Breeks I’m just as mad as you about it…
      But we need a majority… There’s no way round it now!!

    219. Kangaroo says:

      @Cactus Lizg

      If you like your soup as do I, then try this hale and hearty number
      https://www.taste.com.au/recipes/moroccan-lamb-soup/f7923b89-3767-4713-b9aa-8c040f38f9d6

      You can substitute ingredients quite cheerfully without spoiling the outcome eg chops for shanks, carrots for celery. It’s really yummy especially on cold days

    220. McBoxheid says:

      Essexexile says:
      6 April, 2019 at 2:55 pm

      The Orange marches and their associated hatred dredged up annually from hundreds of years ago are a national shame for Scotland.
      There are those who unconvincingly blame them on England’s continuing policy of divide and rule but that is delusional nonsense. It is Scotland’s problem, and one which is likely to carry with it into independence.
      Outside of (possibly) Liverpool, there is no religious sectarianism in England between Catholics and Protestants on anything approaching the divide in Scotland. No historical bigotry is marched through the streets every year with the single purpose of pissing off fellow countrymen.
      In England they just have Morris dancing.
      ———————————–
      Firstly, my early years were spent in Inverurie, Aberdeenshire and I never heard of bigotry. Not until I was much older and moved to Aberdeen and starting going to the fitba, but only when Celtic or Hearts came to town. At first I did not know what they were singing about. Most kids at school supported either Celtic or Rangers and used to fight in the playground. I got four teeth kicked out when I was 5 by a much older boy because some of us supported Aberdeen. I also used to go to Catholics with a few others during RK, religious knowledge. There was rivalry, sure, but the visceral hatred and bigotry wasn’t there. No wading through Fenian blood etc.

      In fact people were interested enough in what happened at catholics, that some even came to see what the lessons were about. They found it was basically the same as was taught to them, but with a different leader.

      Bigotry in the UK is written into the constitution, no catholic may become the monarch. It all started because Henry viii wanted a new wife to bear him a male heir. His sense of entitlement was so great, he start a new church which he himself was incharge of.

      So, it was English entitlement that started all this bigotry thing off and then used it to divide and rule the population. So not really just a Scottish thing afterall. Bigotry does not only include the catholic/protestant divide. Consider labour’s problem of anti semitism. Is that not bigotry too? What about the anti muslimism that is fairly well established?

      As to Morris dancing, whats wrong with it? In Scotland people still learn about our cultural heritage, including Scottish country dancing. Morris Dancing is not mainstream and that is why others belittle it so much. The English cringe at their traditions instead of embracing them. Except of course, the Westminster set, where tradition is ruthlessly used to gain advantage…

    221. Dorothy Devine says:

      McBoxheid, I grew up in Aberdeen and had the same experience as you – never heard of bigotry , never heard of King Billy.

      First Saturday I spent in Glasgow I met the OO marching down bath street which I wanted to Cross to get back to my digs. A fella in the crowd stopped me trying and told me the guy with the big stick in the march was entitled to hit me with it if I dared to cross.

      I enquired as to whether the police would take a dim view of my being assaulted for wishing to merely cross the road and was told they would turn a blind eye.

      I had a policeman brother at the time and was pretty sure that he would have been unimpressed by the news that an assault would be ignored.

      One law for one and other laws to suit eh??

      The attacks at George Square were disgusting and the BBBC even more disgusting for lying about them.
      I look forward to the day when Scotland owns them.

      Cactus , a couple of days without a post , I was beginning to worry!

    222. yesindyref2 says:

      I think Morris Dancing is just an excuse to have a few beers.

      Which makes it a GOOD thing 🙂

    223. Ken500 says:

      Westminster caused the sectarian divide in Ireland by illegally partitioning Ireland. The whole of Ireland wanted Home Rule/Independence. It was nothing to do with sectarianism. It was because Ireland was so badly mismanaged and governed by Westminster (unelected) unionists. It cause starvation, famine and major abuse in Ireland, inhuman conduct by Westminster (unelected) establishment.

      The mass Irish Home Rule movement was led by Protestant landowners like Charles Stewart Parnell. Catholics in Ireland were denied right etc. Same as people in Scotland. They were not allowed to carry a sword (protection) or own a horse (transport) along with denied other rights, No voting rights except by property qualification. There were massive Home Rule rallies and united mass movement of both Protestant (leaders) and Catholics (denied rights) by the British Gov.

      1830’s etc. There were massive revolts all over Europe of people claiming basic rights. 1830/50’s onwards. Age of revolution. Reactionary governments were afraid of revolution. They tried to impose sanctions against democratic movements

      Connected was a Land League another campaigning group who later fielded candidates. These were successful and were bring pressure to bear on Westminster (representation) 1890’s etc. There were Laws being brought in establishing rights to landholding. (anti feudal) Early 1900!s the voting franchiise was being extended. Still dependent on (male) property rights but becoming more inclusive. The Charterist movement and the Fabian movement on which the Labour Party was founded. Extended the franchise even further. Until eventually 1928 Universal Suffrage. The same thing was happening all over Europe (world). The terrible 1WW in the interim. Changed/extended universal Suffrage rights.

      The Irish Home Rule Movement was a movement which united Protestant/Catholic because of the Westminster establishment terrible, abusive Rule in Ireland. It lead to mass starvation and migration. (Same in Scotland) but worse in Ireland? An Irish Home Rule Law was going to be passed in Westminster two weeks after the start of 1WW. Suspended for the duration. This led to the Easter Uprising. Brutally put down by Westminster/British Troops administration. Led to the illegal Partition of Ireland and troubles ever since.

      An overall Irish (Protestant) minority formed a majority in NI. They have continued to maliciously campaign against the Catholic minority (now becoming the majority – demographically) ever since. In some cases denied voting rights in parts of Belfast right up to the 1960’s. Bernadette Devlin etc.

      Breaking UK Laws of equality and human rights ever since. To this day. The Loyalist carry on is unforgivable. Leading to Masonic influence on unequal public jobs and public housing allocation etc. It was established that 90% of public jobs and housing went unequal to Protestants. Ruining the economy. The illegal handshake of total discriminatory and illegal misogyny, bigotry and racism. Not equatable to a modern society. An absolute abuse of power.

    224. Ken500 says:

      People from the NE etc are totally surprised to learn of the loyalist band marches in Glasgow.Many can’t believe it is going on. People being annoyed and disrupted on the public highway as a regular occurrence. Destroying the local economy. All these types of marches are banned in the NE by the Police and local authorities. Just not tolerated. In a mainly Protestant area. There are also few separate schools.

      The religion or type of Churches people go to are not an issue. It is a personal, private matter and totally diverse from politics. It just does not matter as much as in the Central belt where sectarianism ruins the Scottish economy and the sporting scene. It can lead to bad, abusive deviant behaviour which is quite worrying for many people. Totally unneccessary in a supposed tolerant society.

    225. Ken500 says:

      There is only one City football team?

    226. Iain mhor says:

      @Gedboy 10:08pm

      Nice info re: the Pard, in relation to cross breeding, sterility and association with sin/devil, thanks.
      There are some mad rules associated with heraldry/armorials, right enough. Though I believe in relation to the English Arms the matter of Lions/Leopards was pretty settled.

      “Monsieur le King – quand two or more passant, c’st un leopard, et upside down a fish and marche reculons pour xmas, C’est un camelopard, seulement quand il est upright he is the Lion”
      “Mate, it’s a Lion, if the Scots have a Lion, I get three Lions, not bloody impotent leopards, now jog on back to France” ?

    227. Robert Louis says:

      Regarding Saltire blue.

      I Used to adhere to the thinking about the saltire being pale blue (pantone 300), but now I don’t.

      In my opinion it can be dark or light blue. Whatever. I honestly think wither is just as effective, and I do realise that the tenerife flag is the saltire with a very dark blue.

      It matters not one jot. When I go to marches, if a flag is dark or light blue, I do not care. Once we are indeopendent, I think it should be a darker blue, but most would probably not agree.

      Anyway, In short, the specified pale blue only came about in 2003, and I have a sneaky suspicion that such a pale colour was chosen as it makes a less imposing flag. Other countries use STRONG colours. Lppk at the flags of the world and you will see. Only the Scotland flag has been made to be a very pale colour (and yes I do know the origins from the sky and a cross etc…).

      I do not doubt thayt in the past, the saltire was made with a darker blue for the same practical reasons the blue in the union jack was made darker.

      So any shade of blue will do, but I prefer it to be darker.

    228. Dorothy Devine says:

      Aberdeen had leopards on some coat of arms. I liked that , not as common as lions!

    229. Golfnut says:

      @ MCBoxheid.

      There are current lodges in England, still active, Manchester, Birmingham, they date back to the 1800’s, might be a Metropolitan one as well. I always thought the Orange order was founded in Cornwall, but could well be wrong there.

    230. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 6 April, 2019 at 11:10 pm:

      ” … We were speculating on the premise that the rest of the Britain would want to keep the Union Jack because of its brand value Robert and were talking about Government visits not Royal one’s.”

      Oh! Come on Liz g, you should know me better than that. You were not doing that at all. For starters the rest of Britain includes the independent of Westminster, (but not independent of the Crown), Crown Dependencies. Nor were you talking about The Republic of Ireland. Last time I looked they had not up anchor and sailed away.

      … “Funnily enough the Royal visits,as you pointed out have their own protocol…. The first time they’ve not been a problem..
      Well… what the protocol will be if Scotland becomes a republic who knows… “

      Well If/when Scotland becomes a republic there will be no monarchs of Scotland as that means we have sacked the Queen/King of Scots and not replaced them with someone else. The Declaration of Arbroath states we replace a failed monarch with another monarch.

      ” … But Anyhoo as I said it was a bit of banter about the Jack, is all”

      indeed but none the less it exposed the brainwashed mindset held by so many independence supporters that Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom will still exist – just minus Scotland.

      This was the sort of thing in the case of The south of Ireland because the whole Kingdom of Ireland was annexed by the Kingdom of England by the Crown of Ireland Act of 1542. This was when Henry VIII Lord of Ireland had the Parliament of Ireland declare him King Of Ireland. Not a treaty of Union. Thus, when the South declared itself a Republic, it was the case that the republic left behind The remaining United Kingdom.

      When Scotland leaves the two partner United Kingdom there cannot be a remainder, rump or any other form of rUnited Kingdom.

      The United Kingdom simply ends – has not the Westminster Propaganda done a really great job of brainwashing almost everyone?

      The United Kingdom was constituted by the Treaty of Union and when the two kingdoms split there is no existing United Kingdom.

      The matter of the Queen of Scots is quite a different matter again. Lizzie II will still be Queen of Scots unless we either replace her with another royal person or declare Scotland a republic. If we declare a republic the Lion Rampant goes with the Royal person whose flag it is. So also does the Royal coat of arms go with the monarch.

    231. Hamish100 says:

      Mad Unionist says:
      7 April, 2019 at 1:24 am
      Fireproofjim and his pal Hamish 100. The loyalist congregated in George Square on 19 September 2014 to celebrate and were met by Scottish /Irish and other odds and sod fascists who attempted to inflict physical damage. This is what happens when you have fanatical fascist Republicans and Nationalists who will stoop to violence.

      As my granny would say “A liar is always a liar even tae themselves”. The bile in them noes no truth.

    232. Grouse Beater says:

      Remarkable, Chris, there’s been so little backlash to the DUP bung, as if the populace take it as read political bribes to buy power are part and parcel of Westminster life and there’s nothing we can do about it.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘The Great British Power Grab’: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-ngL

    233. The OO was/is very big in Canada,

      `The Orange Lodges have existed in Canada at least since the War of 1812.`

      three Canadian PMs were members of the OO,

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order_in_Canada

    234. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says:6 April, 2019 at 11:27 pm

      ” … I thought the CofS was involved in the Constitutional Convention as well, could be mistaken.”

      I can tell you that when I was a primary schoolboy with a protestant mother and an RC father who brought me up as neither. I went to the nearest to home, or best, school. That the C of S stood for Protestant Scots – not All Scots.

      There was decidedly an anti-RC bias and this only began to change to a closer unity in around the early to mid 1960s.

    235. Ken500 says:

      The Aberdeen unionist Council is just as corrupt as the rest of them. Well documented.

      They call themselves the Unionists and Alliance Party. A Party that does not exist. Not registered with the Electoral or any other society. Or funding obligation declaration. Another abuse of power. A corruption of the Declaration of the Representation of the People’s Act. A false declaration and gerrymandering.

      D’Hondt, STV brought in illegally without a mandate. Leslie Evans.

    236. Breeks says:

      Lions and leopards in heraldry are fine, but I don’t think either come close in the depth and sophistication of their symbolism than Scotland’s Unicorn.

      It is a great pity that unicorns are now synonymous with the ridiculous.

      Scotland’s Unicorn is a mythical beast of great power and ferocity. In heraldry it is drawn in chains but the chains are broken to symbolise that the Unicorn cannot be imprisoned. By accident or design, what is that if not a fitting representation of Scotland’s ethereal Sovereignty which cannot properly be chained up and subjugated? If it ever is imprisoned, it dies.

      The Unicorn was considered a symbol of purity, grace, and honesty and you don’t need to stretch the imagination too far to figure out why the Unicorn features in everything from mercat crosses, the crown and judiciary. For the illiterate masses, it was a sign, “here be honesty”.

      Nowadays, we all laugh at My Little Pony Unicorns with rainbows coming out their arse, but that’s a very great disservice to the nobility and integrity of the Unicorn. You would have to wonder whether a factor in the relative obscurity of the Unicorn in more modern culture was perhaps being perceived as a challenge to the iconography of the church, given the parallels between the Unicorn with the purity, sanctity and holiness of the Virgin Mary. …And that theory opens up all kinds of speculation about the church adopting pagan principles. And while that thought is in your head, we have our Unicorn adopted by UK heraldry…

      An Indy Scotland could do a lot worse than to reinvent the Scottish Unicorn. Any old pussy cat can do fierce, but the Unicorn is a lot more sophisticated with much greater depth to its symbolism. Being pure and honest is a noble aspiration for everyone, even though we know it ultimately constitutes something most will fail to achieve – a bit like Buddhist enlightenment maybe. Is it too cynical to say? – but if you were to remove the church and the Virgin Mary from the spiritual landscape, whether you’d see the good people would still be putting their faith in the holiness of unicorns. A lot of our kids and their My Little Pony’s still do.

    237. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Liz g at 11.54 pm

      That’s the one

    238. Dorothy Devine says:

      Breeks , I love the unicorn as a symbol of Scotland , they adorn the gates of Glasgow uni and my ears at this moment!

    239. stu mac says:

      @McBoxheid says:
      7 April, 2019 at 6:19 am
      {{Essexexile says:
      6 April, 2019 at 2:55 pm}}

      Your assertion is ridiculous as anyone with a knowledge of Scottish History would know that Scotland at that time (Catholic minorities aside, mostly in the Highlands) just like England was very anti-Catholic. We happily went along with taking William as king (one year after England) – in fact William objected to them trying to make him a “persecuting (of Catholics) king”. That anti-catholicism was strong up to the mid 20th century and as we all know still strong though fortunately declining now. Dis/does the establishment use it? Yes, but it was there to be used they didn’t create it.

    240. Legerwood says:

      Craig P says:
      6 April, 2019 at 11:01 pm
      yesindyref2 says:
      6 April, 2019 at 9:01 pm

      “Just catching the drift of the CofS comments, and I’ve always considered them to be defenders of the identity of Scotland, playing an important part in us getting our devolution for instance. A bit disappointed they didn’t come out for Indy,”

      Are you not thinking of Canon Kenyon Wright of the Episcopal Church? He was a one-off though. The churches are reactionary to their core.””
      ……………..

      No he is not. He is taking the history of the Church of Scotland in its entirety from its inception in the 16thC to the present day.

      Perhaps it would be a good idea if you studied that history then formed an opinion.

    241. Capella says:

      @ Dorothy Devine – the leopard is very much a symbol of Aberdeen. They have had a glossy magazine called The Leoprd for decades. Don’t forget the new statue of the Leopard by Andy Scott, gracing the ghastly new Marischal Square.

      https://images.app.goo.gl/UwmY8NrwWkaeZNSn7

    242. Clootie says:

      @crazycat

      Thank you for the contact details. I’ve sent you my email address.
      Your help is Very much appreciated.

    243. Capella says:

      Ditto the magnificent tapestries of the Lady with the Unicorn in the Museum of the Middle Age in Paris.

      The tapestries in Stirling Castle were recently restored from the small scraps surviving. But it is thought they were very similar to the Paris tapestries.
      https://images.app.goo.gl/eL29sSWiFATGbSfD8

    244. Mad Unionist says:

      stu mac. The reason the CofS existed is because it is and was anti Catholic. Thus the name Protestants. If they had not been anti Catholic then they would likely be still Catholic. So what is wrong with being anti Catholic or anti any other religion?

    245. CameronB Brodie says:

      McBoxheidy
      You appear to want to dis-associate Scotland’s sectarian problem from the Yoonyawn and reckon the problem will persist after independence.

      I know a little about Scotlan’d sectarian problem and I can assure you that you are 100% incorrect in your analysis.

    246. CameronB Brodie says:

      McBoxheid
      Sorry for the typo.

    247. Douglas Mitchell says:

      @Breeks 7 April, 2019 at 9:38 am

      The Unicorn is indeed a magnificent Beast. You can no worse than read about the mythology of the “Hunt of the Unicorn”
      https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hunt+of+the+Unicorn+series+metropolitian+museum&qs=n&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=hunt+of+the+unicorn+series+&sc=0-27&sk=&cvid=3723EAEBEBCB4E5E8844D277798F7C05

    248. CameronB Brodie says:

      McBoxheid
      Scottish sectarianism is rooted in religious intolerance and the political economy of colonialism. The role of religion has changed considerably over the 20th century, and faces new challenges in the 21st. Why would the forces of prejudice and exclusion that shaped Scotland, persist in a “rights-based” constitutional democracy? Hopefully the political economy of an independent Scotland would be able to aspire to support a post-colonial society.

      Bandura – Social Learning Theory
      https://www.simplypsychology.org/bandura.html

    249. crazycat says:

      @ Clootie

      You’re welcome. I’ll let you know, directly, when I’ve acquired the necessary information.

    250. aLurker says:

      Ken500 at 9:30 am

      re: Aberdeen unionist Council

      > A corruption of the Declaration of the Representation of the
      > People’s Act. A false declaration and gerrymandering.

      > D’Hondt, STV brought in illegally without a mandate. Leslie Evans.

      I would be interested if anyone could provide some more details on these points.

      Having scanned “Representation of the People Act 1983” again
      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2/contents

      Without the benefit of having any local knowledge of the particular circumstances, I struggled to the identify exactly what the improprieties are.

      Ta.

    251. Hamish100 says:

      Mad Unionist says:
      7 April, 2019 at 11:28 am
      stu mac. The reason the CofS existed is because it is and was anti Catholic. Thus the name Protestants. If they had not been anti Catholic then they would likely be still Catholic. So what is wrong with being anti Catholic or anti any other religion?

      You write so much nonsense I cannot believe anyone can be so ignorant on so many things. Read up on the Nicene creed including one Holy catholic and apostolic church. Whit!! the Cof S is Kaflic!!

    252. Cactus says:

      Hey Dorothy, ahm always around and never far away 🙂

      Here’s Mrs Foster Heid:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4blc90Sq_bE

      Forsyth looks a bit like an evil Benny Hill:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isiZ9U83_SM

      Mogg reminds me of this person (another triple-barrelled name):
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7NjzvRBMlQ

      Kinda BREAKING, was hearing May now saying it’s her deal or No Brexit… if that is the case, be prepared to watch nationalistic Leave England eat itself up

    253. Cactus says:

      Hmm ah wonder how that would work in practice (other than the obvious outrage in Leaver England…) thinking about all of them Unionist / Tory politician tax havens that’ll have to be declared, what will become of?

      Aye SO ah was listening to May’s latest, where she says “everyone will need to give a little and come to a compromise”, followed by a very nervous laugh / snigger

      In saying that, the radio is still saying “When we leave the EU”

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      Regards the Pantone 300 thing, it’s too light a shade for the likes of websites, but also product branding, which both are usually on a white background. I use a darker blue for contrast, otherwise it hardly shows at all. My avatar is the lightest I’d go, websites and products are a lot darker. I want the saltire to stand out from a distance as a Scottish product.

      I tend to agree Pantone 300 was picked so as not to stand out, and that we’d need to change the “official” colour after Indy – if not before.

    255. McBoxheid says:

      stu mac says: We happily went along with taking William as king
      ————
      Oh, who are you and were you there?

      I was talking about my experience concerning bigotry is the 1960s and 1970s. The sectarianism prevelent in the west of Scotland is not a recurring issue in either the Highlands or Aberdeenshire in my experience of growing up there.
      ———–
      Dis/does the establishment use it? Yes, but it was there to be used they didn’t create it.
      ———–
      It could be argued either way. If it wasn’t for that monarch separating from the church of Rome, the likes of Luther or in Scotland’s case Knox, i believe, may never have started the reformation. Unlikely, as the roman chuch was being abused for political gain, 2 or 3 popes at one time, i think?
      The reformation needed to happen when it did and a lot of the bigotry might well have been escalated at that time, so when king billy came along, certain elements saw an opportunity to use that politically, but in the British Isles, at least it started when catholics were banned from a position of monarchy. It followed in 1701 that they were banned from being PM in the english parliament.

      Looking at that last date, not all that long after the 3rd Jacobite rebellion, it seem to me that the establishment in england were making sure that another catholic rebellion would not occur.

      Union of the parliaments occurred in 1703. Willian iii was crowned in 1650 and died in 1702. How much influence did he have with the decision to ban catholics from becoming pm?

    256. McBoxheid says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      7 April, 2019 at 11:31 am

      McBoxheidy
      You appear to want to dis-associate Scotland’s sectarian problem from the Yoonyawn and reckon the problem will persist after independence.

      I know a little about Scotlan’d sectarian problem and I can assure you that you are 100% incorrect in your analysis.
      —————

      Sorry Cameron, but when did I say that? I said it started pre union.
      I can’t see into the future, but I hope that without the toxicity from westminster, that the sectarian element in Scotland will get the chance to be educated as to the actual facts. The OO and the old firm chanting will take time to sort out, thanks to Blis.
      It will take a few generations to do it, but as people drift further from religion, or accept other religions have a right to exist, they will become less intolerant.

      I’m not religious, probably as a result of being sent to a catholic boarding school and seeing the abuse that myself and others suffered first hand in the name of god.

      Not every relgion can be the true one, and anyway my position is religion is just a tool of the ruling class to control the population. The first son became the heir, the second son sought military glory and the 3rd joined the church, often straight into a bishop’s job.

    257. Cubby says:

      Mad unionist @ 7 April 1.24am

      British Nationalists lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything and the mad unionist proves this all the time.



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