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Posted on August 01, 2013 by

We’re just going to leave these here, okay?

expressguardian

recorddaniel

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    1. 18 11 13 19:41

      No More Project Fear. | Tychy

    2. 29 03 16 10:59

      Think of the Children | A Wilderness of Peace

    72 to “Take your pick”

    1. Peter A Bell says:

      Cleverly done, sir!

    2. There’s something sinister about the reaction when the SNP make a proposal to protect children.
       
      When Nicola Sturgeon proposed to enshrine the aspiration to end child poverty in a written constitution, she was painted as some kind of evil witch. It’s astonishing to me and I can’t understand what’s going on, there.

    3. Richard Lucas says:

      Shows the difficulty services face. Go in, you are destroying family integrity, stay out, you are careless and unprofessional.  That such another tragedy has occurred is indefensible, as are attacks on attempts to prevent further horror.  The fact that this poor little lad was in effect slowly murdered in full view of his teachers and other professionals is shameful, and I’d welcome any endeavour to protect children.  Meanwhile we hear more about pervert priests using children as sex toys over decades. Let’s make it stop!

    4. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      TOTAL FUCKING BASTARDS!
      NO BETTER THAN ANIMALS!
       
      In reading that I felt the rage growing… I need t go for some fresh air!

    5. Doug Daniel says:

      I’m just baffled as to why parents would do that to their own child. Neglect is one thing – they may be either ill-equipped to be a parent, or simply don’t care about the child – but what on earth compels someone to torture their child like that?
       
      Imagine the living hell that child was put through during his life. Actually, best not to try to imagine it.
       
      Fuck off, Daily Express. You’re scum.

    6. Atypical_Scot says:

      Animals wouldn’t do that.

    7. DMyers says:

      I can see how some may be suspicious about the ‘state guardian’ idea, but surely child protection is such an important, massive issue?  The fact that there are still cases of where such extreme abuse of children which go apparently (and sometimes willfully) unnoticed shows that we have to think differently in order to prevent kids in such situations slipping through the net. 
       
      Children’s lives are precious, and they need the rest of us to look out for them when those who are entrusted with their care cannot or will not do the job they are supposed to do.

    8. Rolf says:

      You know how they say that if you gave a chimpanzee a typewriter and an infinite amount of time it would eventually bash out the complete works of Shakespeare? Well the same should be true for it bashing out a copy of the Scottish Daily Express – except the chimpanzee would be so disgusted by what it was typing that it would give up at page one.

    9. Mike Hutchison says:

      I read about the little boy earlier today. There are no words.

    10. Beastie says:

      And of course the self flagellation of social services now commences. Why didn’t we see it coming? Why did the health visitors not notice? Why did the school not notice?

      Simple, though, isn’t it? You cannot expect anyone to get it right all the time but you never hear of the times they get it right. File this poor wee lad with the one known as Baby P. Someone maybe didn’t do their job as well as they could have, but on the other hand some sadistic, nasty bastards killed them. You cannot affect that by retrospectively wailing that ‘more could have been done.’

      With regards to the press… well, the Daily Mail at one and the same time would rail against state intervention in parenting and childcare while moaning that not enough was done to protect a victim. They seem not to understand that you can’t have it both ways.

      If there is official presence on a regular basis from birth to adulthood it could only improve social work. I sincerely hope Scotland will massively fund and expand on the organisation you would need to carry it out. But you still wouldn’t keep all children safe, because you cannot legislate for bastards.

    11. Erchie says:

      I was listening to Radio 5 as I sometimes do this morning. I am pretty sure that they were talking about trying to introduce measures down south with a similar goal, flagging up potential risks in ways that the current system misses, as outlined above

    12. Jimbo says:

      Re Daniel Pelka: This kid’s first point of contact with a responsible person outside of the home would have been his teachers. That he must have stank from being locked in such a room, had bruises all over him from his head to his ankle, “disappearing” inside his school uniform, hair falling out, under fed, under nourished, eating Play-Doh and stealing food from other kids rang no alarm bells? That no-one failed to pick up on the abuse being meted out to this kid is an absolute disgrace. 
       
      If the Express report is true, are these are kind of irresponsible people that the Scottish government really want to hand guardianship and power over parents to from birth? I think they should relook at this policy.

    13. seoc says:

      What powers are intended for a ‘State Guardian’?
      If they are along the lines of a concerned onlooker, what’s the problem?

    14. Max says:

      and then there is this;
       
      Daniel Pelka’s vile evil murder should be on ALL our consciences, says furious Nick Clegg
       
      http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/419008/Daniel-Pelka-s-vile-evil-murder-should-be-on-ALL-our-consciences-says-furious-Nick-Clegg

    15. MajorBloodnok says:

      Atypical_Scot says: Animals wouldn’t do that.
       
      Actually, they do.  For example when a male lion takes over a pride he makes sure his predecessor’s cubs don’t survive.  Why should he make to effort to ensure that another lion’s genes are passed on rather than his?
       
      Humans, generally, manage the altruism thing quite well and there is something inate in us that makes us want to protect children, whether they are ours or not (some animals do altrusim too, but it usualy depends on how related they are).
       
      However, this boy’s stepfather seems to have been the main instigator in this case and sadly he appears to have something more animal about him than human.

    16. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Major Bloodnock
      I agree however lions, foxes and other animals that kill their young don’t torture them for months on end first.

    17. David Smith says:

      This is why I despise the Express more than any other hate rage darkening news-stands in Scotland. Their cynicism and downright malice against any kind of aspirational Scottish thought borders on psychosis.

    18. tartanfever says:

      Major, whilst I agree with your point, animals do not inflict torture – they kill. Yes that can be for fear of threat as much as survival or food, but the torture thing is unique to humans.
      Similarly scientists and researchers have found evidence of homosexuality in more than 400 species, yet only 1 species displays homophobia and bigotry – humans.

    19. Robin Ross says:

      Sorry Stu, this is almost completely O/T but that the press can report such irony in such a dead pan way illustrates how lacking in critical analysis most of the media now is.  This is from the Herald’s announcement that Anabelle Goldie and Jeremy Purvis are to be given peerages.
      Mr Purvis, who lost his Holyrood seat in the 2011 election, will also become policy and strategy adviser to Scottish Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie.
      “This is a major responsibility and honour,” said Mr Purvis. “I am very much looking forward to using it as a platform to support Willie Rennie’s work in the Scottish Parliament and to advance the cause of a more progressive and liberal Scotland.
      Now how J Purvis thinks that membership of this bastion of privilege, cronyism and non-accountability is ‘progressive’ beats me.

    20. Macart says:

      The Express, right wing and reactionary so you don’t have to be.

    21. Vronsky says:

      Sorry to hit a bum note, but my experience of the state’s attempts to protect children left me wanting to assassinate (very slowly and painfully) every social worker I ever met.  As a divorcee, I eventually managed to protect and gain custody of my children.  Note that word ‘eventually’ . Much harm was done before I could overcome the agenda of the moronic automata of the social work department.

      ‘Your children should be with their mother.  Yes, we know, her new boyfriend is a violent alcoholic with court orders preventing him seeing his own children, but he seems to be improving in this new environment with your children’.  That is absolutely literally what they told me.  God help them, they felt they had a success. Many lawyer’s bills later, I managed to extricate my children from being therapeutic toys for a nutcase.

      I have a fantasy: I have taken out a contract on every social worker I had to deal with at that time, contract to be executed at a time when it cannot be traced back to me, and I’ve saved up enough money to afford it.  If you’re a social worker reading this, fully aware that you’re a complete arsehole and therefore a legitimate target, please relax: I’m a better person than you – I won’t touch your children. 

    22. Daniel says:

      I don’t see why parents think they have some God-given right to be the sole authority over their children. I can say right now that I’d have had an easier childhood if there wasn’t a tinge in most of my parent’s decisions that I was somehow their son but also their responsibility and property. I think state guardians would be incredibly helpful, either being almost unnecessary in cases with great parents, helpful amidst mild dysfunction or, as we’ve repeatedly seen the potential for, lifesaving.

    23. Jeannie says:

      @Robin Ross
      Now how J Purvis thinks that membership of this bastion of privilege, cronyism and non-accountability is ‘progressive’ beats me.  
       
      Well, that’s just one more reason to vote for independence – we won’t have to put up with or pay for a House of unelected Lords.
       

    24. MajorBloodnok says:

      @The Man in the Jar & tartanfever
      Who knows the psychology of the parents in this case – but I would suspect that the reason that it took them so long to kill the boy was the interplay between the ‘animal’ impulse to destroy the child immediately and the restraining ‘higher’ functions of vestigial altruism and guilt. 

      And I just had the horrible thought that perhaps there was some sort of disgusting “sport” in it too – psychotics can enjoy having control over and harming others, at length.  Sadly humans are not as rational or moral as we’d like to believe (I mean look at how economics works).

      But torture seems to be the preserve of more intelligent and imaginative animals.  Killer whales tossing seals to each other and ‘playing’ with them while they try to get away can’t be a pleasant way to go.

      BTW, I was originally a zoologist interested in evolutionary theory and I can’t help applying it to everything, particularly humans.  And don’t get me started as to where Better Together fit on the evolutionary scale…

    25. Atypical_Scot says:

      Record says Polish couple, are they, or are they now British? The child went to school here. Can’t see the need to add a nationality tag to a globally recognizable travesty.

    26. handyandy says:

      “Mr Salmond’s SNP administration wants every child to have a ‘Named Person’ with the legal authority to ensure they are raised in a government-approved manner.
      The Children and Young People Bill, which MSPs will vote on later this year, will also mean children’s personal details can be recorded, stored and shared on a central database.
      The legislation would also allow children who are angry with their parents to report them to their named person, with potentially devastating consequences”
       
      So it just has to be a named Person with the legal authority. Am i not right in thinking that grand parents and even great grand parents currently have this right in court to challenge guardianship if they see their grand childs well being is being attacked? or in other words a government approved way as in they are cared for and looked after?
      As for the Central database this at least means information can be passed for one department to another department quickly and effectively without information being missed but this has be done correctly and monitoring and auditing to make sure it is and stays fit for purpose.
      As for the last bit don’t millions of children phone charities like child line for exactly the same thing. because they are being abused etc i would say the wording  of “angry with there parents” is maybe not the term that should be used but certainly the government running a service like child line that children can phone in confidence and be supported is surely not a bad thing especially with all the stories in the news currently of children being serious badly abused in the past. Shouldn’t the government be stepping up instead of a charity just filling in the void and maybe the services required might actually get to the people that require them instead of the “we never knew such a thing was happening to the child” answer most social services and neighbours utter after a child is killed by parents
       
      sorry it really annoys me when folk down a policy when it might actually save a childs life and actually improve a child’s quality of life. 
       

    27. Jeannie says:

      @Beastie
       
      Teachers do have to follow very clear procedures in terms of reporting any suspicions of child abuse they may have – they report first of all to their head teachers or can act as a member of the public (as can we all) and report concerns directly to the Social Work Department.  However, once it’s reported, it’s out of their hands other than to look after the child as best they can during the day.  I’ve taken clothes in for kids and tried to give them extra food in my day.
       
      I do, however, know some foster carers and I have to say I’ve sometimes found the ways of Social Work something of a mystery – not so much the social workers themselves, but more so their managers.  The outcomes for children in long-term care are not good, on the whole, and whereas their parents may be to blame initially, my personal observation is that the children are often subsequently let down by the system put in place to support them, rather than by the social workers themselves.

    28. Andy-B says:

      O/T I do apaolgise Sir.
       
      Annabelle Goldie (Con), Jeremy Purvis (Lib/Dem), have just been welcomed into the House of Lords, I wonder what their new titles will be lady and Lord of where?..Hmm!
       
      Also in the Daily Record, the BT camp have bleated that Labour for independence, are just a front for the SNP, and that no actual Labour members, are involved in Labour for independence.
       
      Finally Judas Escariot aka Michael Moore, has stated that Scotlands immigrantion Policy after independence would be a complete and utter nightmare, several words come to mind…Theresa May and the Border  Agency, (Source Evening Times).

    29. Dal Riata says:

      Don’t want to say too much about the poor kid and the child killers; there aren’t enough words to express the horror of that tragedy.
       
      The Daily Express, however, can fuck off. *Their* demise *is* one I welcome. Oh, how much I long for an independent Scotland where that reactionary, right-wing and racist piece of trash is consigned to the dustbin of Scottish history.

    30. Vronsky says:

      “I wonder what their new titles will be lady and Lord of where?”
       
      Lord and Lady Foreign Place.  With any luck.

    31. Alba4Eva says:

      1

    32. John Duncan says:

      Nothing sinister in this at all. Most children in Scotland already have a named person through the GIRFEC (Getting It Right For Every Child) agenda. Pre birth it s the midwife, post birth it is health visitor, primary school it is usually depute or headteacher, and high school it is usually guidance staff. Named person keeps an eye open for child and if they have concerns, they request more specialist services from other agencies. This could be a request to health, education or social work for additional support or services.
      GIRFEC is inclusive of parents at all stages and any planning for additional services always includes child (if old enough) and parents. It is transparent and inclusive and means that children are more likely to get the right service at the right time. It also reduces the numbers of children who are referred on to the Scottish Children’s Reporters Administration for compulsory measures of care. Actually, it is something that Scotland should be proud of. All the government wants to do is enshrine the named person in law so that all children in Scotland have one. I like a country that is prepared to invest in supporting and protecting its children. They are our future and deserve alot more than they received in the past.

    33. Edward Barbour says:

      Continuing Andy-B ‘s O/T subject
      I note the following statements ;
      Jeremy Purvis  “This is a major responsibility and honour. I am very much looking forward to using it as a platform to support Willie Rennie’s work in the Scottish Parliament and to advance the cause of a more progressive and liberal Scotland.” – A major responsibility? you mean turning up, having a nap, put in your expenses and go home..lol and even funnier was the bit about Willie Rennie’s work
      William Haughey was knighted last year for ‘services to business and philanthropy’,He has given Labour more than £1m since 2003
      What is it with these people that see the placing of coronet and ermin and some sort of ‘next step’ this is perhaps the real reason that these morons are fighting tooth an nail for the union to remain intact.

    34. Andy-B says:

      @Rolf
       
      Give a chimpanzee a typewriter and eventually he’ll type Shakespeares works.
       
      Dont you mean the chimpanzee will type out Edward De Veres works, or Francis Bacons works or Christopher Marlowes works, or William Stanley or Ben Johnson, Thomas Middleton, Sir Walter Raleighs works, or Mary Sidney Herberts works, who are all notable candidates, according to the Shakespeare Resource Centre.
       
      Heaven forbid Shakespeare should actually write his own works, he’s no Rabbie Burns, thats for sure.
       
       

    35. Andy-B says:

      @Edward Barbour
       
       
      Couldnt agree more, reaching the House of Lords, is it seems the goal for most useless politicians, where they receive their £300. quid per day just for showing up, and quaff Champagne and Caviar from their £900.000 pound subsidised canteen, then they swan of to one of at least nine bars dotted around Westminster, to discuss ways of shafting the poor and disabled like Lord Freud did with the “Bedroom Tax”. Independence will sever Scots from this upper echelon bullsh*t.

    36. Patrick Roden says:

      They’ve found Johann Lamont!!!!!
       
      She finaly found something that got her so exited she had to comment!
       
      She congratulated the labour Party In Scotland’s biggest donor as he was rewarded with his place in the House of Lords.
      Isn’t that nice.
      source: Herald.

    37. rabb says:

      It makes you wonder.

    38. Alex Taylor says:

      Tartan Fever:
      It’s not just human animals that torture and kill. Have a look on u choob for (can’t do links yet) ‘orca attacking seal’ : quite disturbing.
      And have you ever watched a cat with a mouse?
      Humans are animals, no more, no less, with all that evolution entails.
      Not everything can be explained, but we should seek to protect our most vulnerable from the inexplicable.
       

    39. Triangular Ears says:

      What I can’t get round is how social services, police and every other authority can miss the signs in a case that seems so obvious as this, yet go to the ends of the earth to persecute parents who are 100% obvious good parents doing nothing wrong.
       
      Look at the history of all the sex abuse scandals that never were where innocent parents and innocent children had their family lives destroyed through malicious interference from the authorities, yet the likes of Jimmy Savile and his associates, and countless priests and other ‘men of god’ go undetected.
       
      A cynic might say that they were not undetected at all, but ‘approved of’ by those in authority.  We have to remember that people in authority are just people like everyone else, and history shows that care homes, churches and youth clubs have all been infiltrated by abusers.  There’s even evidence of social work departments being infiltrated.
       
      I have heard stories similar to Vronksy’s so many times it’s unreal.  There’s a real perversion in the way rules are applied, and people seem happy to enforce moronic rules, even when they know it’s detrimental to the family and the child in question.
       
      I don’t know what the answer is.

    40. HandandShrimp says:

      The Mail and the Express are usually the first to the hand wringing “why wasn’t something done..sack the social workers concerned” and the first to say “cut the funding of social workers, down with the nanny state”. They are reactionary mouthpieces keeping up circulation by pandering to the contradictory prejudices of their readers.
       
      Do not look for consistency or logic for they eschew both in search of sales.

    41. pa_broon74 says:

      It goes with out saying, the express is a seriously crap rag and would say anything if it thought it did the SNP/independence a disservice.
       
      More over, it goes with out saying, what happened to Daniel Pelka was disgusting, his ‘parents’ should be locked away for ever and kept in the manner they kept Daniel in perpetuity.
       
      You’re getting into girfec territory with the express headline. As idea goes, girfec is crap and wouldn’t have helped in this instance and probably won’t in any other. Having had to put up with state interference (which they called ‘help’) with elderly parents – the last crowd you want involved is them – girfec is a tick box exercise which as usual does nothing to protect any vulnerable person unless we’re counting social workers as vulnerable people.
       
      The community needs to feel more enabled (which includes teachers) to intervene and get involved – not the state. All the state is ever interested in is protecting itself. Like Vronsky, I have little to no faith in local authorities to do the right thing.
       
      I don’t normally chuck links to my own shitty blog here but since I wrote something about girfec a while ago I thought I might – http://fazzledown.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/girfec.html
       
      I don’t have kids so can’t really get properly worked up about it (I’m not keen on getting het up on behalf of demographics I’m not a part of.) But, in the comments of that blog there is a link to The Journal Online, in the comments of that story a guy called Mark recounts the story of his son who he sent to the shops for some messages, the police saw the boy and decided to pick him up as being ‘vulnerable’ – and now a report lies on the girfec system which cannot be easily expunged.
       
      I can understand why parents – the vast majority of which are pretty decent – might feel put upon with girfec.
       
      PS: You’re probably going to get some serious hard line girfec haters here soon, its a hot topic.
       
       

    42. Angus McLellan says:

      @Andy-B: You missed a new adornment added today to the House of Lords. Give it up for Lord William Haughey of ALEO. Anas Sarwar is delighted. Cynics might think that this is what the LabourforIndy storm in a teaspoon is supposed to conceal.

    43. Clarinda says:

      John Duncan at 3.01pm – yes, formalising good practice which in many areas of Scotland has been up and running even before GIRFEC.  The other aspect that is vitally important is the Scottish system of primary teacher training which requires particular pre-entry academic qualifications and appropriate experience in working with children.
      Having recently visited many Scandinavian countries one of the common factors was their obvious pride in their national child care, welfare and education systems. Just a few days ago most of these countries were reported in being at the top of European league tables of life-style, satisfaction and happiness indicators. Never mind all our material resources our greatest resource and responsibility must be our children – theirs and our future.

    44. david says:

      lady lamont

    45. david says:

      Lord Darling

    46. john king says:

      deadhead, what an appropriate name for this creature writing one of only five posts on the disgusting voice of Scotland express, 

      “dear oh dear the snp really are the pits,a one policy, party of shortbread tin romantics who the hell voted for that fool salmond at the last scottish elections,thought we had a good enough education system but it seem a lot of scot’s cant spot a carpetbagger right in front of their noses”
      when this rag is destroyed I for one will be cheering I pointed out to my mother when I was only 14 or so  how could a paper which was printed in Manchester describe itself as the “voice of Scotland” and although I dont believe it it for that reason my parents stopped buying it (which they did) but because of the dreadful way it reported the miners strike of 1973 when the went onto the daily record, well you can win em all eh

       

    47. Simon says:

      This is the thing about the House of Lords isn’t it, they are not proper lords at all, they are just pretendy. The Duke of Sutherland, now that is a proper Lord.

    48. DMyers says:

      The Duke du Pomme Fritte.

    49. MajorBloodnok says:

      Front page of the Scotsman today was all about various gentry complaining that land reform in Scotland should leave everything in private (i.e. their) hands rather than giving communities the right to buy.  A thinly veiled attack on the Scottish Government and their evil socialist ways it seemed to me.  They must be desperate.

    50. MajorBloodnok says:

      @DMyers
      I prefer Citizen Camembert (“I’m the big cheese around here!”) and his sidekick Citizen Bidet.

    51. Jeannie says:

      @David
      lady lamont
       
      You never know….maybe she’s next up and that’s why she’s been so quiet of late and Anas has been so vocal….stand by for the next leader of the Labour Party in Scotland.
       

    52. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Major Bloodnock
      at2;22
      At least animals are resource managing; cruelty as you say seems to be the reserve of the higher intelligence’s. There is something dark running through the human mind. Little boys pick the legs off a spider and at the other end of the scale there is the dreadful Jamie Bulger case.
      Anyway to end on a lighter note. Regarding Bitter Togethers place on the evolutionary scale I would go for pondlife!

    53. david says:

      im sure mrs lamont will be well rewarded for her political suicide

    54. david says:

      i concur jeannie

    55. Jeannie says:

      @david
       
      Mind you, she’s a constituency MSP, so if she moved to the Lords it would cause a by-election, which they’ll want to avoid, but I somehow get the impression something strange is going on, just the same.

    56. david says:

      strategic changes ahead

    57. john king says:

      I have a freind at work who has a child with a severe disablilty she has been asking for help from social services since shortly after he was diagnosed with his condition which as far as Im aware was at least two years ago,
      the social services recently responded to her and in spite of agreeing with her he needs their help (as does she)
      they dont have enough case workers to allow them to take him on, so in spite the obvious need she has been refused,
      a good mother who works hard, (I know I work with her) and because of an uncaring cold heartless central government whose only aim is to close down the welfare state  who are removing support for such things and as much as the snp would want to provide more funding they are themselves subject to the awful reductions in funding (block grant) that poor girl is faced with a life of heartache and hardship,
      and a company who understand her predicament but cannot allow her to take time off when she needs it all of the time to allow her to take her child to specialists for treatment or indeed to simply give him the additional attention he so desperately needs ,
      no doubt if she has to give up her work to look after her child she’ll be treated as a workshy waster , and of course ATOS  will get their grasping claws on her , I truly despise this (tory) government I thought Thatcher was bad, these people are so much worse!

    58. Holebender says:

      Lord Steel, Lord Foulkes, Lord Watson of Zippo were all serving MSPs and Life Peers. There’d be no reason for Wonder Wummin to resign if she was “elevated”.

    59. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      ALERT
       
      Got this info in the YES shop in Dunoon today, though I suspect its “Kirriemuir”
       
      “I heard today that a new Yes Office set up in Killiemuir has come under attack from the council because of the activity of a local Tory councilor. As a result they are having to fine £350 pounds and are struggling to put this together.
      Dave and I discussed this in the shop today with Willie from the Greens and It was suggested that I write to you and ask it the Yes Cowal committee could give financial help to the Killiemuir Yes Shop.”

    60. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Back on topic
       
      I poster recently that we should be looking at ways to take out some of the Scottish press and suggested that we should aim first at the Daily Express.
      Derision is what its output deserves and no sensible person would buy it if this became reality

    61. Jeannie says:

      @Holebender
      Ah…I had assumed because Annabel Goldie is a list MSP, she’d move across to the Lords and the next person on the list would take her seat.  It never occurred to me that Annabel would be keeping her place in the Scottish Parliament.  It’s even WORSE than I thought then.  So, if they become life peers, do they get to stay on in the event of independence?  Don’t think the English taxpayer will be too happy with that.  Can somebody put me straight on this?

    62. Albalha says:

      @jeannie – Had this in my documents …..full link of these folks from Nottingham Uni thoughts below, but anyway their view on peers.
      And what of the House of Lords. What would happen to the Scottish hereditary peers? The 1800 Act of Union allowed the Irish peers to elect 28 members to the Lords. None were elected post-independence, but also none were required to relinquish their seats, with some remaining members of a ‘foreign’ Parliament until their death, which for one Irish peer was as late as 1961. A similar situation occurred after the Act of Union with Scotland in 1707, when the Scottish peers were entitled to elect 16 of their number to sit in the Lords. From then on all new peers were appointed to the Peerage of Great Britain (as were a few peers created after 1922 who took Irish titles). All Scottish peers were entitled to sit in the Lords under the Peerage Act, 1963, and became part of the electorate after most of the hereditaries lost their seats under the House of Lords Act, 1999. There is thus no Scottish hereditary peerage, merely a UK Peerage, and it would presumably be up to those who, post-independence, considered themselves Scottish rather than UK citizens to withdraw from the hereditary electorate.
      Of course, all peers are now appointed for life, and many of those currently occupying the House of Lords benches have some Scottish links. But could a separate ‘Scottish Life Peerage’ be defined to identify them? On what criteria – residence (first, or second)? Some may self-identify and withdraw but others, like their Irish predecessors, may decide to stay. How could they be removed? Could a generic Act be conceived, or would there have to be a series of ad hoc pieces of legislation? And when it was all settled – it might take some time – would the Prime Minister then replace them with a new tranche to maintain the currently-desired party balance?
      http://nottspolitics.org/2013/03/06/what-will-become-of-the-may-2015-uk-parliament-if-scotland-votes-yes-on-independence/

    63. Jeannie says:

      @albalha
       
      Many thanks for that.  It’s something I hadn’t really thought about before today.  I would certainly hope that post-independence the Scottish taxpayer is not expected to contribute any funding to their upkeep.

    64. Jeannie says:

      Actually, a further point on the subject of MSPs having life peerages in the House of Lords – I was just thinking…..isn’t there a potential conflict of interest in say, Annabel Goldie sitting as an MSP in the Scottish Parliament and, at exactly the same time, being a member of the revising chamber of the parliament of a foreign country?  Or am I missing something?

    65. Albalha says:

      @jeannie
      The transition after a 2014 YES vote, then UK 2015 elections before 2016 in Scotland I suppose is still the UK, if that makes sense. However after the 2016 elections I can’t see how anyone could hold both positions.
      Not sure if that helps!
       

    66. Jeannie says:

      @albalha
       
      Yes, that was my thinking too.  It would be untenable.  So, hopefully Annabel won’t be a peer for very long.  But then, what will Lord David Steel, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, Lord Jack McConnell and Lord George Robertson do if they can’t keep their titles?  That should put paid to their delusions of adequacy.

    67. john king says:

      somebody help me out here,
       but why is it I seriously want lord wallace of wankermess to lose his title? am I alone in this desire?
      ps delusions of adequacy? bwaaahah ha ha ha ha

    68. Macsenex says:

      Why don’t we all call ourselves “lord” etc.?

      Under Scots Law you can call yourself anything you like as long as you don’t impersonate someone else?

    69. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Macsenex-
       
      My favourite criminal charge is ‘Impersonating a Police Officer’. It’s pure Spike Milligan territory.
       
      If you stood in the middle of Buchanan St, hands behind back, chest out, flexing the knees whilst heels are clamped together, frowning at passers-by, giving it ”ello, ‘ello, ‘ello, what’s all this then?’, occasionally saluting to persons unseen etc, could you be lifted?

    70. Hetty says:

      I think the difference with whales playing with and killing seals and cats playing with mice, is that they are not doing that to their own kind as such. So it’s very hard to begin to think how people can do that to their own child.
      The GIRFEC and named person idea has it’s heart in the right place I think.
      It’s got to be monitored carefully though, and regulated because social workers and other service providers can make mistakes. Too much or too little is no good, there’s got to be a balance and more than one person making decisions if needed.
      Parents generally are best suited to ensure that their child has a loving, caring, safe and positive environment in which to live and grow. To make GIRFEC etc work, these have to sit side by side with parental support and guidance where needed, financial support so that children have an equal chance where needed and a recognition that everyone parents differently within an accepted framework. But also it’s about what’s right for each individual child, and that doesn’t always happen in schools and such places I’m afraid.

    71. john king says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says Back on topic @ 5.22pm 01

       I agree of all the despicable rags printing bile and lies in Scotland this is the one I have despised nearly all of my life and I would give anything to see this disgusting thing disappear forever, it certainly doesn’t seem that healthy, one good push should see it tumbling down the stair, when I went onto look at that story about Alex Salmond attempts to turn Scotland into a state full of informers (well that’s their take on it) there were when you go onto the telegraph  any given rant by Alan Cochrane et al you’ll get hundreds of post (almost all lambasting that clown prince of the typewriter)the Express had five posts, each one as risible as the others, seems a prerequisite of reading the Express is you have to be a soulless buffoon.             

    72. David Smith says:

      @ian brotherhood. probably, but after half an hour of boorish comments from behind and people talking shite to you you’d just get bored anyway! 😉



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