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Stupidity beyond parody

Posted on October 04, 2013 by

Not for the first time, we had to check that this really came from “Better Together”, not some cybernat satire site, but again it’s bona fide hypocrisy par excellence.

This really is what the No camp is trying to shovel, in the guise of a pseudo-socialist appeal made in the name of three political parties in hock to big business up to their eyeballs, in a campaign funded chiefly by a multi-millionaire oil executive with links to Saddam Hussein and the genocidal Serbian war criminal Arkan.

bttax3

What, the big banks that, under the watchful eye of the Union and successive Westminster governments, were allowed such free rein for their dodgy dealings that they almost destroyed the entire UK economy, for which nobody’s ever been held to account, and which are still pocketing billions of pounds of our money in bonuses every year even though they’re owned by the taxpayer?

THOSE really big banks?

bttax2

What, the big oil companies in this 2012 Telegraph piece entitled “George Osborne reveals new North Sea oil tax breaks”? The ones described in this story from February this year?

“North Sea oil production is once again galloping to the rescue of controversial economic policies. The timing couldn’t have been better for Osborne. The Oil and Gas announcement provides some much needed credibility for the Chancellor, showing that at least one of his policies – providing massive tax breaks for North Sea oil – seems to be paying off.”

THOSE big oil companies?

bttax

What, the Starbucks and Amazon who currently, and for the last several years, have paid essentially no tax at all in the UK? The companies who’ve allowed to get away, under the auspices of both Labour and Conservative/Lib Dem governments, with tax avoidance so total that the rate of Corporation Tax could have been 300% for all the difference it would have made to them?

THOSE Starbucks and Amazon? We have to vote No in the referendum or we might somehow manage to get LESS tax from them than the ZERO that the governments of the Union have collected?

What next? We have to vote No or we might waste lots of money on nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers with no aircraft on them and ludicrously expensive railways that don’t come within 200 miles of Scotland? “Vote No or you might get Tory governments”?

Come on, BT. Leave us somewhere to go. Satirising yourself takes all the fun out of it.

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    120 to “Stupidity beyond parody”

    1. creigs17707repeal says:

      BT: “What the SNP independence plans means for your taxes”

      Aren’t the BT lot making a big assumption here i.e. that the SNP will form the first govt of an independent Scotland?
       
      YES Scotland

    2. Paula Rose says:

      I’m voting Yes to build what’s best about Britain, let Westminster retreat into neo-feudalism.

    3. ianbrotherhood says:

       ‘We know don’t want to give you the facts but we will keep analysing Alex Salmond’s policies, asking the difficult questions and give you the real cost of independence.

      Contribute more than £10 to Better Together today and we’ll send you a free Best of Both Worlds T-shirt
       
      Or maybe they’ll spend it on hiring a proofreader.

    4. Triskelion says:

      What is wrong with these people, they’re playing the movie in reverse!

    5. Keef says:

      Magic Ianbrotherhood.

      After reading that a few times to ascertain what they meant to say i came up with –

      “We know we don’t want to..”

      or

      “We now know we don’t want to give you the facts”

      or

      “We now don’t want to give you the facts”
       
      What were they really trying to say?

    6. I really think that the lies they are telling will be the very things that will show them (the Westminster party that is) up for what they are.There are enough contradictory “facts” by them that people are seeing through them,I have never felt so confident about independence as I am feeling now,lets stick with the truth,being polite and help everybody with an answer to their questions even the ones we know are only asking for the nuisance value. 

    7. rabb says:

      The bottom of the barrel has been worn through; they’re now starting to tunnel.
       
      I shall be positively moist with the irony of it all when they strike oil 🙂

    8. Truth says:

      OT, sorry Stu, but you did say wait for half a dozen comments.

      Anyway, it seems the BBC were at the independence rally after all. If you look at the photo of Alex Salmond in the montage here I think you’ll agree with me that it was taken at the independence rally the other week.

      Same tie, same microphone, same general look as that day. I’m struggling to find another photo or video from that angle to check the banner in the background.

    9. The Man in the Jar says:

      It is almost criminal that we have an opposition so inept that they can produce bullshit like that and our wonderful MSM (press and TV) continue to spoonfeed it to the unsuspecting masses. 
       
      I try not to get downhearted and instead hope that folk will see through the crap. It makes me push against the bullshit that wee bit harder. 

    10. ianbrotherhood says:

      @rabb-
       
      Unless I’m much mistaken, you have TWICE, in as many weeks, made reference to yourself becoming ‘moist’ for whatever reason.
       
      I hereby request that you desist from such filth.
       
      Sincerely,
       
      ‘Jelly Baby’
       
      PS Please reply asap.

    11. Are they really suggesting that the tens of thousands of Scottish SMEs don’t pay corporation tax?

    12. rabb says:

      It’s not my fault Ian. It’s Better Together. I’m on the verge of dehydration here!

    13. Alastair says:

      It is a criminal offense (Breach of the Peace) to “set fear and alarm among the lieges”, some call it scaremongering, for others the experience could be rather terrifying, some might call that terrorism. I know what I think, Scotland wins or Scotland dies.

    14. ianbrotherhood says:

      @rabb-
       
      This is for you mister.
       
      (Don’t know what happened – I typed in ‘Dry Your Thighs Mate’.)
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHOf3s70w-c

    15. Ron Burgundy says:

      I cannot quite work out, like you Stuart what this is. Is it somehow a SLAB inspired Project Fear attack on the SNP as a right wing party and government who are in the pockets of big business while seeking to claim that personal taxes will rise in an independent Scotland. Are they so insane as to try and peddle this canard?

      Taking point 1 – Any such an effort collides with the facts of the car crash regime which British Labour became. Just two points which say it all. Unionist economic policy and social equality???

      # During the New Labour years the richest 10 percent of the population were 100 times as wealthy than the poorest 10 percent. On one measure, income inequality in Britain was higher in 2007-9 than at any time since the Second World War.

      Peter Mandelson was “intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich”

      # New Labour built on City deregulation from the Thatcher era and actively encouraged the casino banking which led to the banking crash in 2008 while cutting Corportation Tax and Inheritance Tax for the rich.

      SLAB cannot airbrush the toxic economic legacy of their recent past away with mud slinging at the SNP. The Unionist parties created.
      Point 2 – to suggest that independence may lead to income tax rises as part of some kind of effort to scare voters. Income tax rises will be the least of any potential worries after a NO vote because

      1. The UK has a £1.2 trillion National Debt and £16 billion deficit
      2. Sterling is being devalued daily by money printing Q.E.
      3. Inflation is rising (look behind the pretendy C.P.I. number). Wages though are collapsing 

      International confidence in UK Bonds is faltering – listen to Max Keiser. What if the Chinese want their money back quicker because they lose confidence in Britain’s ability to pay back the loans? Osborne will have to put up interest rates to keep them sweet.

      That will destroy his “PONZI SCHEME” ( as Max Keiser calls it ) called “Help to Buy”with  re-possessions, defaults and probable banking collapses to follow – and no bail outs because the UK is bankrupt.

      Take no lies from Unionists on the economy – this is their weakest attack line. Remember the UK is a total basket case with a “Bond Apocalypse” coming.

    16. Macart says:

      So I’m guessing the truth team are still on summer break then?
       
      Those wee scamps over at BT. If they were any funnier ah’d pay ma cooncil tax.

    17. James S says:

      I’ve been on the BT facebook page all day denouncing this graphic. I’ve had many PMs from undecideds thanking me for starting their “journey” while on that page.
       
      Can I ask any of you when you have the chance to join me? There are a few of us on there that, despite the mind-numbing, grinding, self-loathing, negativity and abuse, hang in there and make a few who’d otherwise see the nonsense and believe it start to question things.
       
      There is so much talent on here and I genuinely believe if we tackle them on their own turf we’ll deprive them of those they seek to sway through fear and deflection.
       
      Regards,
       
      James S
       

    18. BobW says:

      Went to the BT site to see the original material, used in Stu’s post and found that they have a +ve page, they might want to change the page title to – ‘reasons to stay UKnited’ (silent K). The page URL is a trifle unfortunate, it ends with ‘the-ve-case’
       
      They’ve obviously thought long and hard about the positives to saying no in the referendum, they could nearly fill a full A4 page with what they’ve presented. None of which contains anything that could be said to be based on verifiable facts. The page also contains lots of calls to the emotions and the expected sprinkling of F.U.& D. If what they’ve presented on that page is the best case they’ve got, then it’s not the Yes side of the referendum who have problems.

    19. A2 says:

      Do you have to set up a new account every time James S? I assume if you spend that  amount of time pulling them up you’ve been banished more than once.
       

    20. James S says:

      Just on 2nd account.  🙂
       
      It is worth it though. Based on the premise of making just one person open their eyes etc., it’d be a landslide based on the PMs. 🙂
       
      It is hard though and with the talent we have on here a few of you will dominate that site. Their arguments always end up about nationality, not substance.
       
      Please help out. Even if it’s just one comment over a coffee break. Too many undecideds go on there, get reinforcement of the newspaper nonsense and leave thinking they’ve justified their vote.
       
      Regards.
       
      James S

    21. CameronB says:

      My senses are so shaken up it can’t even remember my name now. 🙂

    22. CameronB says:

      What happened there? My previous comment just disapeard (posted under the name XameronB – a typo).

    23. Marker Post says:

      The word hypocrisy is used a lot now, but it’s worse than that just hypocrisy.
       
      According to dictionary.com, hypocrisy is the pretence of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs, or principles that one does not really possess.
       
      All of these do apply to Better Together. But this latest in the long line of Project Fear utterings should be called what it really is: Deceit. Deceit is the concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud.

    24. Haha! I feel I earned my Cybernat wings tonight: https://twitter.com/logicsrock Everything I posted was true and thankfully Foulkes foulked off sharpish. And yes, Billy Ross sang the song he asked for and the tight git didn’t even buy him a drink. It really was funny when the 2 arslikahn guys he was with piped up “George Foulkes, everybody” when he got up to leave and started clapping. Everyone just looked at them as if they were on a day pass from the Royal Edinburgh Hospital. He’s easier to wind up than an old Timex. I think he may have seen the writing on the wall.

    25. Patrick Roden says:

      @Rab  “The bottom of the barrel has been worn through; they’re now starting to tunnel”
      Haha, Nice one! 🙂
       
      BT’s strategy is straightforward: Just keep churning out press releases/ leaflets/statements, that blames the SNP/Yes campaign for things that they themselves could be accused of.
      This way, when the truth Labour/BT is discussed the ‘Low Information Voter’ gets confused and thinks ‘They are all as bad as each other, so nothing will change if I vote Yes, so why bother’
      Yet again, BT are following a well known campaigning style that relies on deceiving the voters (Something that is formally expectable in Westminster politics!)
      But Yet again the BT campaign are up against the influence of the ever growing ‘Cyber-Army’ including Wings and her readers.
      More than ever, it’s our one to one conversations that are taking place all over Scotland, that will overcome these lies and smears and eventually win the day.
      ‘It’s Good to talk’

    26. The tide is turning! http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/blog/entry/why-workers-in-scotland-should-vote-no
      Anas Sarwar’s speech dies in the first 4 words “A hundred years ago …”
       
      They’re on the run: http://telly.com/19VN2MH

    27. joe kane says:

      Being good Scottish civic nationalists, I’m sure we’d all like to extend a warm welcome and show our appreciation to the Governor of Punjab on his recent visit to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament and to congratulate him on his recent appointment as Governor of a truly remarkable part of the world which many Scots share close cultural and family ties with –
      “The Presiding Officer today welcomed the Governor of Punjab, His Excellency Mohammad Sarwar, on an official visit to the Scottish Parliament.” 
      The Scottish Parliament Facebook
      03 Oct 2013
      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=482708525160912&set=a.328212350610531.69616.105414346223667&type=1

    28. joe kane says:

      Thanks for that Roddy.
      Just to say, my comment was not meant as a reply to yours. I hadn’t seen yours before I posted mine. It’s just a coincidence.

    29. Albalha says:

      @Truth
      Re the image, on the BBC website of Alex Salmond, it is at the march, BUT, it may be from pooled images taken on the day. It doesn’t mean a BBC person took it.
       
      The amount of great images, taken daily by agency and freelance photographers, that never see the light of day is a sin in my opinion.
       
      And talking of images two weeks ago we were gearing up for the march my pics, again, including 3 from February of prominent YES signs.
       
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/albalha/
       
       
       

    30. Albalha says:

      And another uplifting thing for a Saturday morning, BT saying we can be independent, by the marvellous Jack Foster, all to the backdrop of Donald Fagen’s music, the juxtaposition had me laughing out loud. I haven’t seen it before though dates from early September.
       
      http://nationalcollective.com/2013/09/09/no-campaign-rally-behind-a-successful-independent-scotland/

    31. Aucheorn says:

      Caesar!lha
      There’s a new sign at Dunphail. 🙂
      I assume you’re one of the folk that pull in and take pictures.
      I’ve found a lad who’s going to make lots more of them.

    32. Albalha says:

      @Aucheron
      No I’m not an news agency photographer but my little business is about images and means I travel around Scotland. So when I see good prominent YES signs I take them for myself.
       
      Is that your house? I look forward to seeing the new signs on my next trip along the A940.

    33. Semus says:

      BT are as an Irish colleague used to say of a T.D we knew “He has told his lies so often, he believes them now,and he is the only one that does”.

    34. sneddon says:

      I think its at the stage now  that undecided voters look at the contradictory information from the BT campaign and are ‘nudged’ towards a YES vote when they can find factual information.  I think people will look back on the BT campaign as one of the worst and most negative campaigns yet (and it didn’t work in ’79 or ’97 either).  They still think the electorate are stupid, their mistake.

      The lies told by BT are coming to bite them on their bums.  There is no positive vision for the UK coming from them, unless you are a millionaire CEO of a large multi national or a banker with a large bonus to hide from the tax man.

    35. Aucheorn says:

      Caesar!lha
      It is.  Why waste a prominent position. 🙂

    36. Albalha says:

      @Aucheron
      Well quite! I was driving towards Forres and couldn’t miss it so managed to turn around to take the photographs, before getting on my way again.
       

    37. Mchaggis says:

      O/T sorry
      can anyone point me in the direction of a short film which I helped crowd source ages ago. It concerned bias political reporting at the BBC in Scotland. The project appeared dead in the water, but I got a mail in the last few days saying it was complete. Of course, now I cant find the email and googling isnt helping. IIRC it was called The Dream-makers or something like that. Did anyone else here help fund it and has a link to the completed movie?

    38. Red squirrel says:

      Oh my, irony overload. Provided everyone has learned by now to question these sorts of statements, they’re utterly transparent.
       
      Please can someone help BT with their economics homework – any cut in tax rate is irrelevant compared with the current position of little or no tax being paid. Nice of them to make the case for independence for us.

    39. john king says:

      james s says @2.14am
      I have the utmost respect James I did as you asked but forgot I had been moderated off the better together facebook page for asking what happens if we vote no, it appear your not supposed to ask questions,
      but looking through the posts you were (admirably) fending off I found myself losing the will to live.
      more power to you James and to the stronger and smarter posters on here get over there and give this guy some support, he deserves it.

    40. scaredy cat. says:

      @McHaggis
      Is this what you are looking for?
      newsnetscotland.com/index.php/affairs-scotland/8125-the-make-believers

    41. Albalha says:

      @McHaggis
      Here it is The Make Believers
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX1hNW_bzAI

    42. scaredy cat. says:

      @Caesar!lha
      Thanks. I can’t seem to get hyperlinks to work when I post from my phone

    43. Another London Dividend says:

      More comedy gold. Ed Balls in Hootsman saying we wouldn’t be allowed to use the pound.
      Also Gerry Hassan on Labour and Devolution
      http://archive.is/XZ7OB

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      The reason that the Better Together arguments are such artless mince is because it is bloody hard to think of a positive case for the Union. “I’m a Lord and I’m really worried my gravy train is about to be derailed” would be pushing it even for their rather myopic world view.

    45. scottish_skier says:

      More comedy gold. Ed Balls in Hootsman saying we wouldn’t be allowed to use the pound.
       
      No, as standard, he said he ‘might’ be against it / ‘could’ in theory veto it. Nobody ever says ‘would’ because that won’t happen; something we’ll find out soon enough.
       
      Anyway, seems an odd strategy for the by-election. Vote for us or we’ll batter you (well might batter you I mean). Real hearts and minds campaign. How to endear the union to Scots in one easy step.

    46. HandandShrimp says:

      SS
       
      I wish someone would pin Muppets like Balls and Osborne down and try to get them to commit to vetoing the use of the pound. Then people would see their half baked scaremongering for what it is. Unfortunately the media are not holding a fire to the feet of these people they are aiding and abetting in the scare and doom mongering. 

    47. Doug says:

      Aucheorn.
       
      I do love that display. Makes me smile every time I pass it! Certainly adds to the remote housecalls 🙂

    48. PickledOnionSupper says:

      @Sneddon – Agreed. The hollowness of the No campaign will become apparent to the Scottish electorate when the white paper’s published. Once a vision of Scotland’s future is set down in black and white I think we’ll see Better Together struggle to provide a response. The ‘fear and smear’ tactics won’t wash anymore – people will start asking them more difficult questions and the likely evasiveness will tell its own story. Roll on November!

    49. gordoz says:

      This has SLAB written all over it.

      O/T Sorry Rev but  I’ve been banging on about this for a long time. About the invovlvement of Schools in our local areas and the stance they take.

      Dunoon Grammar School – (Cowal) Argyll are hosting  the Cowal ‘Better Together Information event’.  Lib Dem MP, Cons MSP, Labour candidate are the panel  + Rob Shorthouse BT director of communications (famous for slagging off Ricky Burns in defeat) Leader of the Council will be chair.

      Date 7th October 7.30pm / I cant make it (out of the country) but hope others can to challenge this lot. Trying to pointout how easily our kids are being brainwashed.

      Sickened by the establishment role in schools. (Impartiallity?)

    50. Xaracen says:

      “Aucheorn.
       
      I do love that display. Makes me smile every time I pass it!”
       
      I’m on tenterhooks! Is anyone going to post a piccy?
       

    51. Captain Caveman says:

      I must admit, the sheer gall of this is utterly incredible. Salmond’s entirely right to want to cut Corporation Tax; he recognises that in the medium to long term, an indy Scotland MUST diversify her economy and accordingly MUST attract foreign investment. In fact, this is Westminster Conservative policy also, for exactly the same (entirely laudable) reasons.
       
      This disingenuous BS must make your collective blood boil.

    52. Webcraft says:

      Balls-up alert
      OT, but thought I would post it anyway as we are well down the thread.

      Ed Balls, speaking in Dunfermline in support of the Labour candidate in the by-election there, said he was ‘not bluffing’ about blocking a currency union with an independent Scotland should he become chancellor.

      I think people would look at the huge difficulties of trying to hold together different sovereign nations within the euro and think that has been unstable. It’s been very hard to deal with divergence in the views of national parliaments. I find it really hard to see how you could possibly keep the pound.

       . . . is that in the same way that it would be impossible for, say, Germany and France to keep the Euro? Or is he saying that the rUK and Scots economies are going to diverge like Germany and Greece?

      If so, which one would be Greece?

      I can’t see how this is a vote-winner for Labour in Dunfermline . . . but it needs exposed if it is going to get much oxygen.
       

    53. Albalha says:

      @Xcaracen
      In my flikr link a wee bit further up, Dunphail 1 and 2.

      Further up than I thought, here it is

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/albalha/

    54. Xaracen says:

      “In my flikr link a wee bit further up, Dunphail 1 and 2.”
       
      Ah, I looked at them, but didn’t realise they were what you were referring to. Will actually be going through Fort Augustus today, so will keep an eye out.
       

    55. Albalha says:

      @Xaracen
      The mini bus is in Fort Augustus, Aucheron’s house is in Dunphail, those are the images he was talking about.

    56. NorthBrit says:

      It seems that it is not quite true to suggest that all of the companies mentioned currently pay no Corporation Tax. 
      Some of the banks pay a bit of tax…

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2013/04/25/barclays-and-hsbc-make-the-case-for-unitary-tax-in-the-uk-because-wed-have-collected-2-6-billion-more-in-4-years/

      Better Together!  (RevStu’s “be nice” guidelines forbid me from shortening their name to “Bother”, which is a shame as it’s quicker to type and a better reflection of their nature.)

    57. Albalha says:

      On matters economic did anyone hear the D Fraser interview with the French ambassador on GMS?
       
      The first part, I thought, was a very positive picture of the expanding trade links between France and Scotland, that the Scottish delegation was the largest of all their UK visits.
       
      However not so great when it went onto Euro, EU membership. I was at a Business for Scotland training this week and I wasn’t fully aware of the mechanism for joining the Euro. You need your own currency, track the ERM for two years and an acceptable balance of payments. So years away, if ever. (Personally I’d be happy with the Euro but I realise it’s not the view of many on the YES side.)
       
      I’m sure it has been written about on here but it’s important detail to really highlight, if a no or undecided brings it up, I think.

    58. sneddon says:

      North Brit  It is correct to say that ‘in spite of the banks best efforts’ they are paying a bit of tax but as the article points out under a unitary tax system they’d be paying more.  Personally for every type of mis selling (Libor, insurance etc) they do I’d whack a  5 % tax on profits until they got the message.

    59. Atypical_Scot says:

      Kind of on topic, but perhaps void of meaning.
      UK GDP 2012 £1.6 trillion = £24.6k per head. (all UK)
      Scottish GDP 2012 £150 billion = £28.3k per head. (Scot)
      Removing Scottish GDP and population.
      rUK GDP 2012 £1.45 trillion = £24.1k per head. (rUK only)
      A loss of £500 per head to the rUK x 60 million people = £30 billion.
      A gain of £3,700 per head to Scots x 5.3 million people = £19.6 billion.
      £30 billion is a 1.8% of GDP loss to the UK.
      £19.6 billion is a 13% of GDP gain to Scotland.

    60. Albalha says:

      @AtypicalScot
      In GDP terms it means we are 17% better off than the UK and were we independent we’d be 8th in the global tables, with the rUK at 17.
      According to B for S.

    61. Murray McCallum says:

      Seems the Tory funded Better Together campaign are resorting to the quality of graphics and content used by school kids in the recent NE independence debate. While you can excuse kids searching the internet, you have to wonder what Better Together are spending their dubiously sourced funds on.

    62. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Caesar!lha;

      Yup, with very little impact to this big Britain thingy. Getting further off topic, have you seen this?
       
      http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/04/us-swiss-pay-idUSBRE9930O620131004

    63. dee says:

      Max Keiser the economist on RT tv has some advice for David Cameron regarding his tax policies on multi-nationals.
      He is as diplomatic as ever.
      http://www.maxkeiser.com/2013/10/stfu-david-cameron-ver-2-0/

    64. dee says:

      In case you are unsure (STFU) Shut The Fuck Up.
      I do wish the BT lot would do just that.

    65. ianbrotherhood says:

      Here’s a great wee clip, as plugged by Stuart Cosgrove on ‘Off the Ball’ a few minutes ago.
       
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5aLn13Phkw

    66. joe kane says:

      What’s the Tax Gap?
      Briefings
      Tax Research UK
      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/FAQ1TaxGap.pdf

      4…World Bank data suggests that tax evasion may be £70 billion a year in the UK. Tax avoidance is harder to estimate but Tax Research (working for the TUC) estimates it to be £25 billion a year whilst H M Revenue & Customs admit there is tax paid late of about £25 billion at any time. That means Tax Research says the tax gap could be £120 billion. 

      5. The government deficit is expected to be £126 billion in the year 2011/12 – a figure almost exactly the same as the tax gap. It is forecast to fall to £92 billion in 2012/13 – almost exactly the total of tax avoidance and tax evasion in the UK.

    67. Thomas Dunlop says:

      The union is like a black hole. It’s so dense it bends the truth and light cannot escape.

    68. joe kane says:

      Ian Taylor, Tory and Better Together donor and buisness associate of tyrants and war criminals, seems to be running the same tax dodging scam that got the defunct Rangers FC into trouble with the taxman –

      What do Tory donors get for their cash?
      Another Angry Voice 
      14 July 2013
      http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/tory-donations-peerages-contracts.html

    69. Keef says:

      I’m an undecided voter.
       
      Where do I look for information to inform my opinion?

    70. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

      Ah yes! The “pseudo-socialist appeal”.

      From the Better Together Wikipedia page…Among the major donors was Douglas Flint CBE, the Glasgow-born chairman of global super-bank HSBC

      From the UK Uncut website…Then there’s HSBC’s profiteering from the NHS. A report by the Times in 2008, found that HSBC made almost £100million from managing NHS hospitals where contractors ‘charge taxpayers inflated bills for simple tasks, such as £210 to fit an electrical socket’.
      So many questions, Ho hum…
       

    71. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Keef – If you have look at this previous thread by Rev Stu, the printable flyer has plenty of websites giving information to an undecided voter.
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/make-yourselves-useful/

    72. Keef says:

      🙂
      Thanks Archie.

    73. Malcolm says:

      The telling thing is that this article has 325 facebook likes already. The original BT article has 4!
      They’re doing a great job providing ammo for sites like this. Keep it up guys!

    74. Keef says:

      Any other worthwhile suggestions?

    75. Malcolm says:

      @keef
       
      Try scottishindependenceinformation.com also.
       
      It was written specifically for undecided voters new to the arguments and gives most of the key stats and points. It’s not a bad place to start.

    76. Albalha says:

      @keef
      Peter Bell’s scoop it not on the flyer
       
      http://www.scoop.it/t/referendum-2014

    77. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Oops!
      Sorry for going O/T here but thought I’d better announce my imminent disappearance 😆
       
      I’ve just read in the local paper that the local Better Together crowed were leafleting at Dumfries and Lockerbie railway stations, probably in the last week. After reading this article I. quite logically in my view :P:, asked the question of Scotlrail on Twitter. They have suggested I lodge a complaint with them on 08456015929, so being the very kind hearted and thoughtful person I am I have. I now await either to be taken away to a darkened room for some “readjustment” by certain members of UKOK or receiving a response from Scotrail. :D:

    78. Roland Smith says:

      I recommend subscribing to Private Eye. Last edition had a very good article on how Westminster have changed the tax laws such that large tax dodging companies with tax advisors only need to pay 5% legally through off shore arrangements.

       Ed Balls and Labour are happy with this situation apparently. 

    79. Boorach says:

      @ Keef
      Weegie Warbler is always worth a read
      http://weegiewarbler.blogspot.co.uk/

      … or you could simply read your wee picture thingy 🙂

    80. Arbroath 1320 says: 

      Oops!
       
      ‘crowd’
       
      Oops. 🙂

    81. Ivan McKee says:

      @ keef
       
      http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk
       
      Everything you need to know about the economic / business case for Independence.
       

    82. Keef says:

      Ta Boorach.
      I was attempting to get a thought awareness thing happening where, when a genuine undecided asked the question – readers of this site immediately knew where to point them.
       
      Maybe too daft an idea.

    83. Keef says:

      Thanks Ivan.
       
      At first glance I thought this site would be ‘dry’ and a bit ‘lame’. I was surprised at how informative it is. Would never have known of its existence if you had not mentioned it.
      Cheers

    84. That’s tragic. They’ve allowd their red/blue tory policies to shine through.

      They’ve also got a funny article about passports
      http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/a-passport-to-the-world

      The biggest irony is that the first two words on a UK passort are..?

      European Union. The same EU that staying in the UK could see us dragged out of. They say that there are 173 countries in the world you can visit without a passport due to a UK passport. I wonder if this would be different if the UK wasn’t in the EU.
       

    85. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Keef – Its good to have these places to point undecideds towards. However here’s a thought – There are general information sites as well as more specific sites such as National Collective, Business for Scotland etc. I guess by careful questioning then as you said ‘thoughtful awareness’ helps to point the person in the appropriate direction.
       

    86. Andy-B says:

      Good piece Rev and very true.
       
      As for the banks their still at it, pretty sure the Clydesdale Bank was fined for mis-selling mortgages or something similar, just recently.
       
      As for Starbucks I recall they left taps running in their premises 24 hours a day, in one day they used 23 million litres of water.
       
      Source
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7654691.stm

    87. Eddie says:

      @ Keef – read the McCrone Report matey, it’s all you need to know about the duplicity of Westminster.
       
      Spotted my first U-KOK emblazoned car today, no doubt a product of the ‘not big enough to make the local paper’ rally they had in Greenock on Friday.  We both took our kids into their swimming lessons and while sitting at the side of the pool, she refused to discuss anything about the referendum with me.  Maybe my first question (what genuine benefit does the union hold for Scotland) had her stumped.  If the independence race turns out like the race our respective kids had in the pool, it’ll be a landslide for ‘YES’.
       
      I’m trying not to be too stereotypical about her, but I couldn’t help noticing the rarther posh, landed gentry type accent she had.  I’d hazard a guess that I’ve just spotted one of those rare Scottish tory types.

    88. Andy-B says:

      @KEEF.
       
      Have a read of this mate, and be under no illusion that Westminster actually cares about Scotland or Scots.
       
      http://www.oilofscotland.org/scottish_politics.html#scotland_marine_boundries

    89. Keef says:

      Ta Eddie.
       
      I’ve read it, what’s more I’ve summarised it umpteen times for friends and relatives who are too apathetic to read it.
       
      Would love a documentary on it to be made (sometime real soon). 

    90. Smudge says:

      We’ll I’ve added my tuppence to the bt page hope it helps a wee bit
       

    91. Brian Powell says:

      Where are we up to with Better Together: all the big companies will get massive tax benefits on Independence and simultaneously all the big companies will leave on Independence.

    92. Adrian B says:

      The McCrone report highlights in PDF form good for e-mail or printing. Just enough to get the point across without becoming a chore to read:
       
      http://sunnyscotland.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/The-McCrone-report-An-embarrassment-of-riches.pdf

    93. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

      @ Brian Powell
      Where are we up to with Better Together: Balls Darling have a cunning stunt to not let Jockland use the quid whereby the rUk economy will completely collapse into revolution and Ed Milliband will triumphantly lead the consequent bread queues to revolution, Great work guys, I can see why you are so suited for the chancellor job!
       
       

    94. gordoz says:

      O/T
      As per my post 10.04 about schools infiltration by BT

      Excellent work in the local press (Dunoon) about Mondays BT event in the Grammar School.

      Well said Alan Gerrish, you didn’t miss any targets sir !!

      Hope the public see the flaw of allowing BT into the local school at the behest of the Council Leader – and Director Educational Sevices. School areas should be for impartial debates by both sides and nothing else. This tawdry escapade should get a bigger airing but it won’t.

      The historic role of Labour Party intervention and indoctrination within Dunoon Grammar School continues, now with the support of the council, via the Leader.

    95. fordie says:

      What is the correct word for the outrage that has been perpetrated on the people of Scotland, particularly since the discovery of oil. Perpetrated by the Labour Party and the Tories – in this instance they were certainly better together – and with the Lib. Dems. now also in cahoots. The lie that told the people of Scotland that they were poor and unable to manage their own affairs. The same lie told to the other people in rUK -many of whom, if you read BTL comments on the MSM, still choose to believe it.

      Despite the glaring mass of evidence to the contrary eg http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-news-we-knew/

      But the thought that keeps circling in my mind today is why did the people of Scotland believe it.

    96. BuckieBraes says:

      ‘We know don’t want to give you the facts…’
       
      It’s still there on the Better Together page, so surely it can’t be a typo after all. It must be what they are meaning to say. Freudian slip or what?
       
      Bless ’em, though: can’t they see they are actually doing the Yes campaign’s work for it? Despite their attempts to distort and put a negative spin on aspects of independence, the positive message still comes through. Then again, the alternative of trying to tell us how OK the UK really is must be such hard work!
       

    97. gordoz says:

      Rev ;
      Having just read the piece again, you have just reminded me how sordid the whole BT deal is.

      I had  totally forgotten the link between Mr Taylor and the dubious donations to BT & Harris Tweed and the honourable Brain (Celtic fitba daft) Wilson & creative branding Guru Mark Hogarth (Harris Tweed) from the recent BBC Scotland debate.

      Jesus what a sordid wee cartel the whole No Campaign is. Absolutely nothing positive of note within the links above.

    98. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Would never have known of its existence if you had not mentioned it.”

      It’s been the second-top entry on our links column for about six months!

    99. Albalha says:

      @fordie
      As I’ve said I went to Business for Scotland training on the economic issues this week. The figures on just how much has been squandered is enough to make you shout and scream from the rooftops.
       
      I’m sure some others will have seen Gordon McIntyre Kemp’s presentation, hopefully more YES, and other, meetings will have that benefit.

      I think a lot of people were aware but not enough to be listened to perhaps.

    100. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Adrian B – Great link to that 2 page .pdf of the McRone Report – That summary plus one of the satire maps of Scotland makes a great combination. Duly posted on my FaceBook.

    101. Albalha says:

      @gordoz
      Re schools, I’ve previously posted the Electoral Commission educational advice. Has anyone called them to ask what they think? I appreciate they may say there’s not much they can do at this stage, but I think it’s worth asking when you have an actual case.

    102. Albalha says:

      @daughteroftheevilreindeer
      Re the pound it’s patently daft. English businesses rely on their business to Scotland, why would rUK risk losing that trade.

    103. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

      @ Caesar!lha
      And I think they know fine themselves how daft it actually is.  when I was watching the Abertay University video last night seeing Robertson, huffing, faffing  and blustering about the pound, I thought – it is actually hard for these “no” people to lie like this, and I get the feeling that is how some others perceived his performance. Not made of the same stainless steel as Tony Blair who can look a whole UK in the eye and say night is day.

      I think they will collapse the pound if they try to cut Scotland out, reading up as much as I can on it at the moment so any ammo is welcome too.

    104. fordie says:

      @Caesar!lha. I can’t help but feel that we’ve been complicit in this fraud. Perhaps feeling a bit blue today.
      And no matter what people’s personal feelings are re. the SNP or Alex Salmond, both should be lauded for affording us the opportunity to bring all of this into the light. As should all those activists over the decades who have kept up the good fight.

    105. Albalha says:

      @daughterofheevilreindeer
      This from Business for Scotland, if you’ve not seen it.
      http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/the-illusion-of-english-money/
       

    106. Albalha says:

      @fordie
      Absolutely re the SNP. I’m not, never have been, in the SNP but I certainly appreciate what they’ve done.

      I understand what you’re saying about complicity but ’79 was the time to really grasp the chance, I didn’t have a vote, as it goes, one year too young.

      We can look back to inform the present but we can’t dwell on it too much, and I really do think we’ll return a YES this time round.

    107. Bob Howie says:

      They are all “But the SNP cant tell you what ? will be” ok, but neither can you, you won’t tell us anything but at least the SNP promise it will be better than them, BT cant even say the UK will be better with them only that we should and trust them.

      I have trusted them for years and got NOTHING and that is one thing I know I will bet if I vote no…..NOTHING

    108. Caesar!lha, enjoyed that, businessforscotland article.
      Rev: any chance you could get Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp to do a article on Scotland’s finances and deficit? A sort of “Scottish Independence Finances for Dummies”. (If you already have, I apologise.) 

    109. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

      @ Caesar!lha
      Thanks, read and bookmarked, some useful links in there too.

    110. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

      I am not an SNP person, I came to this from a pro-democracy viewpoint but since watching things like FMQ and getting involved with the debate, I have really warmed to the SNP., I think they are genuinely striving  to build a democratic civil society and I will be voting for them in future elections, we are so lucky to have them.

    111. Paula Rose says:

      @ Daughter of Evil Reindeer, will the SNP exist after independence? I for one hope they do not and provide Scotland with a proper democracy that has parties that represent society. By that I mean that I know folk in the SNP of a wide range of views – but are united in their desire to see Scotland govern itself.

    112. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

      @ Paula Rose
      Ah right!, See your point. It would be good if they were there in some form, I like a lot of the policies they have brought in and I especially like them trying to keep our stuff in public ownership.

      Not sure how much I would trust an independent Scottish Labour Party after all this, I would like to see a social democracy, real human rights and equality commitments, proper universal health care, long term vision for our new democracy.

      These seem to be things that the SNP MSP’s are big on, if some members joined other new Scottish parties I would be listening to their reasons, and my vote might well follow them.

      I think the Green Party has some good joined up thinking, and I voted for the Scottish Socialists after the illegal war.

      I suppose I would actually like to stay active after the referendum and get involved in some way. Anyway I have not really thought about all this up until now.
       

    113. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Casn any body get me a simple comparison for my discussions with older folks who are woorried about their pensions
       
      Simple -like this
       
      Total revenus raise in Scotland
      Total fund spent to service Scotland
      Total cost of state pension in Scotland and a percentage which that represents that  againnst the total revenues raised 

    114. Albert Herring says:

      I reckon that after independence the SNP will lose some members to parties on the left and some to parties on the right, ending up as a left of centre social-democratic party, basically replacing a thoroughly discredited SLab.

    115. Paula Rose says:

      @ Daughter of Evil Reindeer
      “I suppose I would actually like to stay active after the referendum and get involved in some way. Anyway I have not really thought about all this up until now.”
      xxx 

    116. Roland Smith says:

      How about this article in the Guardian about how much google have paid recently in corporation tax.

      Better Together with corporation tax for big business less than 1% under Labour and the Tories.

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/google-tax-avoidance-uk-public-pays

    117. Alastair Naughton says:

      The trouble is – and it maybe sounds defeatist – but this kind of stuff sticks. Just this week I have heard from an oil exec who spends his working week in Norway and comes home at the weekend, that, fiercely proud Scot that he is, he doesn’t believe Scotland can copy the Norwegian social democratic model as Scotland is too dependent on oil and Norway has other resources that Scotland just doesn’t have, so he was definitely going to vote No. Can you believe it? 
       
      I also spoke to an academic who reads the Daily Mail every day (yes I know) for the fashion and trivia, but in doing so is also heavily influenced by its editorial line. She is also an absolute die-hard No voter and thinks the oil companies will all move their offices away from Aberdeen if there is a Yes vote. BTW she was also aware there had been more political content in the first few pages and wondered what it was all about. When I mentioned the name Ed Milliband she thought he was in the Tory party 

    118. Paula Rose says:

      That’ll be the norwegian whiskey industry and varied landscape, the renewable potential and a vibrant culture that Scotland doesn’t have?



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