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Wings Over Scotland


Six wasted years

Posted on September 18, 2020 by

Forgive us for not joining in the pointless and unusually muted hoopla about the latest indyref anniversary (which for the first time we can recall, nobody has bothered to mark by commissioning an opinion poll).

We’re still thinking about the SNP’s treatment of the man who was chiefly responsible for securing the only independence referendum Scotland has ever had.

And of its utter abysmal failure for more than half a decade to come up with anything even remotely approaching a credible plan to get a second one.

Our previous offer remains open: we’ll take any bet of any size from anyone against the proposition “Boris Johnson will never grant Nicola Sturgeon a Section 30 order in the absence of some sort of court judgement legally compelling him to”.

We’ve had no takers yet from the Sturgeon faithful. We don’t expect any.

Every day that passes from now until the current SNP leadership is removed is another one wasted to add to the 2,191 that have been wasted from 19 September 2014 until today, achieving nothing. Until that tally ends we have nothing to celebrate.

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    1. 21 09 20 13:37

      Liars gonna lie – politics-99.com

    92 to “Six wasted years”

    1. aulbea1 says:

      Ah’v nothing more to add – the Murrells give me the absolute boak.

    2. Dave Beveridge says:

      There’s going to be some seriously disappointed people when they finally realise that their Empress has no clothes. It’ll be akin to cult deprogramming for them going by some of the sycophantic drivel I’ve seen posted.

    3. Muscleguy says:

      Please lend your vote to the ISP on the List next May. We will remind Scotgov at every opportunity that time is pressing. We will represent the wider Yes campaign deeply frustrated at the lack of movement under Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell. We will voice your disquiet, ensure that unlike the Greens the IP will not let Scotgov/SNP have any hiding place for the fact that they are doing NOTHING concrete towards Indy. No capacity or institution building. No planning, no contingencies. No consideration of any other route than the pointless chasing of a S30 in the misguided belief the public won’t accept any other method.

      When that one is repeatedly frustrated and seen to be frustrated while support for Indy rises and the threat to Holyrood gathers apace they will expect the search for an alternative way out of this septic union.

      If I have any say (I’m on the national policy committee of the ISP) I will ensure the alternatives get aired in the chamber and on the record.
      ISP2

    4. stonefree says:

      I totally misread that

    5. Dave Beveridge says:

      Can’t the ISP stand in the constituencies as well? I’m looking for a pro-indy party to vote for.

    6. red sunset says:



      stonefree says:
      18 September, 2020 at 11:40 am
      I totally misread that”

      As in Murrell to sue Ruddick ?
      Me too

    7. Linda McFarlane says:

      OMFG

      Stu, no wonder you’re seething. Going that way myself.

    8. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Blimey…

      Must be quite a tense breakfast table at the Murrells, munching away at the cornflakes, unable to discuss all this stuff.

      🙁

    9. Ron Maclean says:

      The SNP is a fully functioning political party. Its problems lie solely with its leadership and the absence of criticism from within. The party’s constitution allows for a leadership election.

      ‘A candidate for Leader or Depute Leader must have the nominations of at least a hundred members who must be drawn from at least twenty branches.’

      I’d hoped that a credible leadership candidate would have come forward by now. Perhaps there isn’t one.

    10. Andrew Davidson says:

      Peter Murrell only got where he is because of Alec and that’s such a brutal betrayal it makes me feel sick. Horrific.

    11. Martin says:

      Out of context one could say “Peter Murrell found out about the allegations and wanted to be seen to be doing all he could to help the complainers in a #metoo world.”

      But the context is the pathetically weak charges and insubstantial evidence after 2 years of casting the net wide and trawling the very depths.

      I’d say untenable but modern politics has shown one can get away with anything.

    12. montfleury says:

      Mr Murrell has a lot of explaining to do. I expect his telephone(s) is/are currently a pool of molten plastic.

    13. Peter A Bell says:

      A Section 30 order is the last thing we want (t.ly/Mvrs). Who would be stupid enough to seek a court order forcing Johnson to grant one? Or should I just ask how many names are on the list of people stupid enough to do this?

    14. Andrew Davidson says:

      Given the alphabet ladies (and their party/govt functions) were using WhatsApp to discuss and collaborate on the case, I wonder if Peter was in on that too. Would it really surprise anyone if he was given this? :\

    15. Willie says:

      This is more like it. From the ISP website –

      https://www.isp.scot/isp-statement-on-the-internal-markets-bill/

    16. P says:

      First glance, I thought it said Peter Murrell was going to sue someone
      Fk
      I need a wee sit down

    17. Albert Herring says:

      Better watch out Stu. Boris might take you up on that bet.

    18. Alexander Wallace says:

      I feel sick.

    19. Polly says:

      Yet, Stuart, the man himself did mark it in a tweet at midnight as soon as the anniversary came round.

      Salmond is willing to keep the date alive – we must too. He’s the one most affected by this, he’s the one we should take our cue from, no one else – not even Wings.

      Yes, for the email, it shows real brutality from Murrell.

    20. Bob Costello says:

      That basically sums up the present position. The sooner the Joker in the house of cards goes the better

    21. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @MaggieC (from previous thread) –

      Hard to know what will happen next Tuesday re committee session.

      They’ll have to consider all this fresh stuff as well as what to do about Evans’ evasion re the costing of AS’s persecution.

      (Trying to imagine Linda Fabiani writing her latest letter to Murrell. Blimey…)

    22. Andy Hay says:

      Sturgeon is happily surfing the crest of of popularity the Covid outbreak has brought.

      Nothing is going to happen any time soon unless somebody does something big.

      Mon the Salmond.

      One last go at it, is all it will take.

    23. Ian says:

      I’m starting to think that the SNP’s only plan is actually waiting for a generation to pass before getting an S30 order.

    24. Lorna Campbell says:

      Peter A. Bell: agreed. Petitioning for a S30 is so pointless, always was. Angus Brendan showed that Johnson has not the slightest intention of allowing one either. Waste of time. This is going to the wire and we all have to be prepared to go to the wire with it, however it pans out.

      Debate Night another apology for Unionist law-breaking. The hot air being expounded by these people who are, themselves, breaking international law by repudiating the UN Charter and international law on Treaties, is stomach-churning.

      They are also quite prepared to sanction the internal market guff. Enough is enough. If the SG is not prepared to do what it takes to get us out of the Union – and that cannot be another endless wait for another pre independence referendum of any kind, totally unnecessary, anyway – then something is going to give and the party is going to implode. It possibly will, anyway, if any more of this stuff around the Salmond affair sees the light of day – and I have no doubt it will.

    25. Peter A Bell says:

      Muscleguy says:
      18 September, 2020 at 11:38 am
      Please lend your vote to the ISP on the List next May.

      Even if I had been daft enough to be considering such an utterly pointless squandering of my vote I now wouldn’t be having heard representatives of ISP, AFI and the Scottish Greens at a Zoom meeting recently. I listened to the three of them bickering and squabbling and it quickly became evident that what they are vastly more concerned with getting a seat in the Scottish Parliament than with restoring Scotland’s independence.

      Listening to them it could have been the British parties. Except that the British parties set aside their spats when it comes to the independence issue.

      What I heard was a bunch of wannabe ego-trippers using ‘independence’ as a marketing device for their policy agendas and/or for their personal ambitions. It was an unedifying spectacle. But a good eye-opener for those who need one.

    26. Willie says:

      Reading the above transcript of Murrell’s web chat, theses are not the words of a nationalist, a patriot. Anything but. They are the words of a filthy scheming scum bag.

      And then when you look at the party in disarray, with a lack of strategy, and it’s membership stood down, it’s no wonder that stalwart SNP members of thirty years are actually starting to say that they will not vote for the bastards.

      The turn around in a party, in a movement since 2014 is quite incredible. But we can get the show back on the road. We need to re-engage, get the poison out our party, and move to securing our independence.

      It can be done but not by people like Sturgeon, Murrell, Ruddick and their kind at the helm.

    27. red sunset says:

      Let’s say Johnson did cave in to Ian Blackford’s “unsustainable” demands.

      What then ?
      A S30 order ?
      Then what ?

      There’s been no preparation for an Indy campaign. No public education.
      The SNP has – at best – hinted that Nicola has a plan that’s being kept secret.

      Building a new country, a modern one in the Western world, is a complex task. Requires a lot of preparation and cooperation. What has been done towards that?

    28. auld highlander says:

      Why does the mention of murrell remind me of a lizards egg.

    29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Given the alphabet ladies (and their party/govt functions) were using WhatsApp to discuss and collaborate on the case, I wonder if Peter was in on that too.”

      Yesterday’s article expressly noted that his messages were indeed sent in that specific WhatsApp group. BE MORE ALERT.

    30. mogabee says:

      Feel your rage Stu, had to stop watching and reading news and hardly even tweet either.

      Just musing recently on when that tipping point is reached. That ‘lightbulb’ moment of realisation.

      When the next election happens? Or in a year, or two when there is still no push for independence?

      Or when someone stands up to the scheming bastards who have parasitically taken over the SNP?

      Will there be a shouting match?

      Will anger lead to violence?

      I’d be delighted too if I had an alternative to vote for next year. I will not be campaigning for any SNP candidate, ours is leaving and I see no strong voice to replace him. Dire times…

    31. cirsium says:

      @Muscleguy, 11.38am

      the fact that they are doing NOTHING concrete towards Indy. No capacity or institution building. No planning, no contingencies. No consideration of any other route than the pointless chasing of a S30

      A good summary. I would add no foresight, no vision.

    32. kapelmeister says:

      They’re a bit like an outwardly respectable and sprucer version of the Manson family, this Sturgeon clique. They select victims and try to destroy them. They venerate Sturgeon and think she has the answers to everything and tolerate no dissent.

      While the Manson lot had helter skelter to spur members to action, the Sturgeon Cabal have wokey hokey.

    33. Mark says:

      SMP downfall. I’m sure I seen that headline many times in the last 10 years and they have never come to anything. And I’ll take a bet from anyone that they won’t come to anything this time SNP will win the election by a big majority as usual.

    34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “SNP will win the election by a big majority as usual”

      Nobody has said they won’t. What’s your point?

    35. Sarah says:

      @ Ron Maclean at 11.53: is there a set time at which SNP leadership elections take place or can they be triggered at any time by 100 [doff cap to Declaration of Arbroath] members from 20 branches calling for one?

      I would support such a call.

    36. Grey Gull says:

      It’s a beautiful day here. Clear blue skies and warm sunshine but I think I feel even worse than I did 6 years ago. I could greet.

    37. Sarah says:

      @ Grey Gull: we had the same weather six years ago and an atmosphere of freedom and hope to go with it. It was bliss to be alive.

    38. kapelmeister says:

      Does this Sue Ruddick have a secret salary too?

    39. MaggieC says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 12.17 pm

      I could imagine that Linda Fabiani could be writing that letter in red ink with the steam coming out of her ears also remember that’s she’s retiring next May . Will she really worry about what happens now if Msps like herself knew what was going on all the time with the party going after Alex .

      As I’ve said before why are Linda Fabiani , Mike Russell etc and other Msps who are long time stalwarts of the party going now while independence is supposedly within our grasp or have they known along what was going on and have had enough of it .

      It will be interesting to see what some of the retiring Msps do and say when this really blows up .

    40. Polly says:

      @ Sarah

      ‘It was bliss to be alive.’

      Indeed Sarah, reminds me of Wordsworth about revolution. Pity he became an old reactionary in later life. I felt the same as you that day. I really thought we’d made it.

      Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
      But to be young was very heaven!

    41. Daisy Walker says:

      Reading the whatsapp messages – regardless of possible ‘well intentioned’ desire for ‘justice’ for the complainers.

      Where is the damage limitation for the party and the Indy movement – given their roles and responsibilities within the party?

      That surely is a large aspect of what they are paid to do under circumstances like this.

      Wearing the wrong hats, and pulling down wages under false pretences.

      Those of us who have concerns about the way NS and co have been running the SNP and her lack of movement and plans for Indy have been accused by party faithful of gross disloyalty.

      Riddick and Mr NS – show quite clearly in the above messages – they were not trying to firefight and do damage limitation on behalf of the Party – they wanted to shit stir as much as possible.

      That is a 180 degree turn on what their professional roles called for. I’ll take no lectures on ‘party loyalty’ from anyone who can’t see that.

      But one thing folks, we have a country to save – while we are cleaning out the stables – we must keep our eyes on the prize – get support for Indy over 60% before years end.

    42. Mark says:

      I blame the last SNP leader for accepting a section 30 and calling it the gold standard now we’ve to drop the gold standard and go with something else convince about 50% of the population that don’t what independence to get out and vote. My protection for that kind of vote will be Belarusian numbers in favour of Independence because the no vote will just not take part

    43. Donald Raymond says:

      Support Alex Salmon Show on YouTube, it deserves more views…

    44. Ron Maclean says:

      @Sarah 1:07pm

      The SNP National Conference meets as Annual Conference once a year …

      The positions of Leader and Depute Leader
      (a) are available for election in advance of Annual National Conference;
      (b) are filled following a ballot of all members of the Party.

      The Annual Conference was postponed in June 2020.

    45. Yasmin says:

      Such a disgusting weasel. Looks like he has an inferiority complex.
      Kenny Mckaskill,Alex Salmond and Angus McNeil are the only decent bunch left. Without Salmond at the helm I can’t see independence happening.

    46. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Copied from ptrevious thread, for those who may have missed it:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      18 September, 2020 at 1:11 pm
      “Why would she lie to parliament?”

      This is not a hypothetical. She DID lie to Parliament. We know that for an unchallenged fact. She told Parliament she knew nothing of the allegations until 2 April, but she has also told us she met Geoff Aberdein to discuss them on March 29. These are matters of official record.

      Had Salmond been found guilty, I am at a loss as to how you would imagine that would have impacted negatively on Sturgeon. She’d have been seen to have enacted the very process that convicted him and would have been totally vindicated. She needed him to have been found guilty of something, anything. When he walked free from that court, the clock started ticking on her political survival. It’s only a matter of time.

    47. Stuart MacKay says:

      It’s interesting to see the trending “Mr. Murrell…” posts here and elsewhere. Has the “Save Nicola” campaign started already?

    48. Robert Graham says:

      I do hope you folks realise how much of a embarrassment to the current leadership you are becoming I mean asking uncomfortable questions about progress or lack of information as to any plans in place for the Actual point of all this ” Independence “this has become really annoying to the current management , just do as you’re told , we know best stop asking questions .

      The recent surge in popularity that has brought more people round to accepting a good approval rating during this Pandemic seems to be pushing this who blinks first stand off ,Do You Feel lucky

      Turning these percentage points into actual votes is wishful thinking especially when it’s also taking a good loyal base for granted it’s a bet even Ladbrokes might have a problem taking ,

      Gambling on this support swallows whatever is being done however unpalatable is really taking a big risk and believing that the same support has no alternative but to continues is not only unwise it’s taking the Piss , people don’t react well to Blackmail however nicely it’s dressed up .

      The current management has moved on to a higher National level , you little embarrassing people have outlived your usefulness so get with the program you have nowhere else to go so stop being bloody annoying , your last hope Alex Salmond has been stopped in his tracks and any vocal support Cherry , McKaskill etc and any out of line MPs and MSPs will suffer the same fate .

      You now realise yer f/kd we know your f/I’d and in a stranglehold so stop bloody struggling mugs.

    49. Bob Mack says:

      I feel nothing. I am empty. I suppose grief leaves you like that.

      It’s one thing to suspect somethIng but it’s quite another to see it writ large in black and white.

      I’m disgusted and appalled at this.Nobody better tell me for a few days at least, we have to support this next of vipers for any reason. Especially ones that plotted to send a legend to jail for life for political expediency.

      Think I’ll Take the day off. Thanks Rev. How can you stomach this.?

    50. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      A little bit of lateral thinking here…

      After reading the words attributed to Peter Murrell at the top of this page, who would you rather be?

      A]. Peter Murrell?

      B]. Alex Salmond?

      I would wager a hundred pounds that Peter Murrell will NOW be aware his duplicitous words from his disgusting, vile toxic ink, dripping from his poison pen are starting to circulate, and likely go VIRAL on the internet.

      Peter Murrell, the jig is up.

      You and your scheming dirty ingrate of a careerist, self-interested, gravy-££££££-train riding Sturgeonite partner have been FOUND OUT.

      Your fingerprints are all over the allegedly unlawful efforts to get rid of a political rival by PERVERTING THE COURSE OF JUSTICE.

      Peter and Nicola, there are some REALLY PISSED OFF SOLICITORS, COPS AND ONE DEPUTE FISCAL I know who read this website. They are now discussing what to do next.

      If there is any truth to what Stuart Campbell and Kenny MacAskill have been writing and quoting, YOU MURRELL AND STURGEON can expect a knock on the door from senior officers at Police Scotland where you will escorted to a place for formal interview, under police caution, in separate rooms. Discussions have now been initiated on whether to submit a formal complaint against you and REQUIRE Police Scotland to consider the most appropriate way to resolve this bourach.

      I trust that you will both practice what you preach when throwing everyone else under the bus: THAT YOU WILL BOTH STEP ASIDE UNTIL THE POLICE INQUIRY IS CONCLUDED.

      Enough said.

      I will stop here before I get really angry.

    51. Paul Brownlie says:

      What odds are you offering? I’ll chuck a quid in at 100-1.

    52. Breastplate says:

      I put this in the last thread but I think the spirit of it belongs here.

      The Independence can has been kicked down the road and many of us (not all) have already accepted this. There is little talk of a referendum this term of government even though that is what was promised, yes, yes, I can already hear the wails of “but the coronavirus….”

      Many of the arguments are positioned around what will happen and what is going to be done next term of government in 2021.
      Vote for SNP, don’t vote for SNP, vote for a list party, vote for both, vote only one party, stop the Unionists getting in.

      Many of us have already been programmed to accept yet another delay with no more than a bit of a whine and a whinge or with the joy and conviction of a zealot that everything is going according to plan.

      We all want the same thing, Independence.

      Yes, there is a split in the SNP and yes, there is a split in how individuals in the SNP are perceived but this can be remedied by securing a referendum (or plebiscite by other means) this term, this would ensure consolidation of the Yes Movement and no need for arguments or discussions about who to vote for or how to vote in HE 2021.

      It would mean the SNP placing country before party. Are we there yet?
      No? As you were, then.

    53. Oneliner says:

      My anger at the internal SNP machinations is palpable.

      My anger at the Westminster machinations is stratospheric.

    54. Breastplate says:

      Mark @ 1:37pm
      I went to work on a bicycle yesterday but it doesn’t mean I’ve got to do that from now on, does it?

    55. Mark says:

      Isn’t the rules for cycling to work I don’t think you can just get on your bike and make up your own rules. In the hope that everybody else who uses the road will understand your new rules.

    56. Breastplate says:

      Peter A. Bell,
      I understand your sentiments regarding an S30 and mostly agree with them but I think anything that works as a catalyst to kickstart any move towards independence has got to be good.

      I accept that it may be perceived by Westminster as a weakness by our government and I understand that there are dangers in this but surely we can bolster our position by pointing out to Westminster that we are not looking for their permission, as it is not needed, but their blessing and good faith going forward to make the process as smooth and expedient as possible.

      I believe a starting gun needs fired and more than a few people need a good boot up the arse.

    57. Breeks says:

      It’s six wasted years, and one wasted Treaty of Union-busting Brexit, and one lost European Citizenship… Squandered.

    58. Harry mcaye says:

      I wonder why Sturgeon is so popular for her handling of the pandemic? Scotland has one of the highest deaths per million in the world, that’s taking the Wednesday NRS figures, currently 4,239. For a population of only 5.45 million that’s staggering. Even just taking the 28 days figure (and what a deceit that is, now replicated throughout the UK) it’s still the worst among nations of 4-6 million. Only Ireland really comes close although I don’t know their methodology.

    59. CameronB Brodie says:

      The British constitution is a “political” constitution, or voluntary agreement, but it is being poorly interpreted as a supremely authoritative and legally binding set of legal rules. So it would appear a rather dumb political decision to remain bound by its’ legal force, when it now articulates excessive legal instrumentalism that is devoid of moral content (see Natural law). Law without moral content does not support human health and development.

      Continuing to demure to Westminster is not compatible with a respect for the principle of equality in law, and actually harms the fabric of international law.

      Economic and Social Rights Law
      Incorporation, Justiciability and Principles of Adjudication

      https://www.routledge.com/Economic-and-Social-Rights-Law-Incorporation-Justiciability-and-Principles/Boyle/p/book/9781138298880

    60. Breastplate says:

      Mark,
      Instead of taking the bike maybe I will take the car (without changing any rules).

    61. Mark says:

      If you can convince my Unionist neighbours that your new way of committing to work is the best way forward then fine. But if you force them into accepting your new way forward then we’ll end up like Northern Ireland in the 70s. I’m not sure you have met my neighbours in the east end of Glasgow

    62. holymacmoses says:

      You’re a star Wings: do be careful
      Consider this: how would Mr Murrell and Ms Sturgeon have behaved today had Mr Salmond been found guilty and locked up in prison while his wife of almost 40 years was left alone?
      That question is held in my mind.
      People capable of:
      this sort of cruelty,
      use of idiots to do their dirty work and
      abuse of the justice system
      should never be allowed to run a country:
      – that way madness lies.
      We must rid this nation of them and theirs alongside making Scotland an Independent nation.

    63. PhilM says:

      @Al-Stuart
      Do the REALLY PISSED OFF SOLICITORS, COPS AND ONE DEPUTE FISCAL have their own WhatsApp group?!

    64. Bob Mack says:

      @Mark,

      I’ve met many of them. What I would say to you is that many years ago,Liverpool had the very same issues. However when given proper leadership they put those issues aside.

      If Liverpool could do it so can we.

    65. Polly says:

      @ Harry mcaye

      ‘I wonder why Sturgeon is so popular for her handling of the pandemic?‘

      Because some of those failures were known to be down to her initially following the process down in England. England is a disaster even yet. Many complained about her following their lead and she started to listen to people like Professor Devi Sridhar. After that things improved here. Holyrood was seen as being better at ensuring we had supplies and information needed which was clear, concise and followed. Also she is very articulate in presenting the briefings which gives even unionists – on both sides of the border – a feeling of security about getting the information in a timely manner by someone who seems willing to answer questions and lead a government effort to support them.

      However true any of that is, or how dangerous or otherwise this virus really is, makes no difference to the optics of a leader being shown to be willing to stand up and calmly show leadership.

    66. Breastplate says:

      Mark,
      I accept that there are those who will not be convinced by independence, whatever means are used to get there.

    67. Andrew Davidson says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      Yesterday’s article expressly noted that his messages were indeed sent in that specific WhatsApp group. BE MORE ALERT.

      Mea culpa. Didn’t notice it.

      That just makes it incredibly worse.

    68. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Andrew Davidson –

      You’re not the only one. I didn’t realise it until late last night when a friend pointed it out.

      There was an awful lot in that ‘Fog’ post – it could easily have made two substantial posts.

    69. holymacmoses says:

      And sent on Robert Burns’ night
      The ‘rogues’ have mutated into ‘monsters’

    70. Suz says:

      Having observed Mr Murrell at conference and having been unnervingly close to him on, thankfully, only one occasion and briefly, my gut instinct tells me that he is a big bag of assorted personality disorders in a suit. None of the recent revelations about him surprises me in the least.

    71. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT but not entirely. Those who support indy can be seen as an alternative culture, which has much in common with feminist concerns, as both movements can be viewed as struggles against patriarchal inequality. Alternative cultures can only support action with the potential to emancipate individuals and culture, if they are aware they have all been colonised by neoliberal theory and practice, to a greater or lesser extent.

      Neoliberalism is unable to ascertain, and even obscures, the innate sources of true value in things and activities (the market is irrational). So it tends to privilege political and economic processes that lead to society’s dehumanization, harms the environment, and encourages dysfunctional and incoherent government that often displays outright nepotism and criminal conduct. That’s how I see things anyway.

      U.K. Subs: Stranglehold
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILWW-C7UwxA

    72. Cod says:

      @Ron Maclean

      “I’d hoped that a credible leadership candidate would have come forward by now. Perhaps there isn’t one “

      There is one. Her name is Joanna Cherry, and certain parts of the SNP are doing everything possible to stop that from happening.

      BUT.

      Nobody needs to stop voting SNP if they support independence. There are still plenty of people within the SNP who passionately believe in the cause.

      What we need to do instead of changing our votes (and really, who else are you going to vote for? ISP? Errr, no) is change the SNP. If that means changing the leadership then that’s what is needed. No one person is more important that the raison d’etre of the Party.

      Too much infighting, too many comfortable backsides, too much posturing, too much blind faith. This is not the way to independence.

      An S30 route might be the gold plated option, but it’s also never, ever, ever going to happen. The last one gave the entire Unionist apparatus across the UK the utter shits, and they will never make that mistake again, even if every single person of voting age in Scotland voted SNP on an explicit manifesto which contained “pursue independence” as the only policy in 400 point font.

      If we need to change the party to get some new ideas and new routes, then that’s what needs to happen.

    73. Intractable Potsherd says:

      Following cancelling my SNP membership a few weeks ago, I have just joined the ISP. The politics of Scottish independence need to be shifted out of the rut they are in, and since Alex Salmond and Craig Murray are, for all practical purposes, unable to do much in the upcoming election due to the legal cases they have suffered/are suffering, then the ISP is the best practical option. I’m still unsure where my constituency vote will go, if it goes anywhere – that depends on what the SNP does with those two irrational Bills – but my list vote will be for the ISP unless there is a significant change in the leadership of the Scottish Nationalist Party.

    74. And spouse says:

      I am reminded of that moment in Braveheart were Wallace knocks the helmet of the Bruce!
      Not for one minute am I suggesting Murrell is akin to the Bruce, but wouldn’t we forgive him if s/he/they delivered indie this year.

    75. Andy crossan says:

      I’ll take the bet out of sheer desperation and blind unfounded hope
      I will wager a beer of your choice on it (none of your suger infused cider mind you) and a pineapple free pizza

    76. SilverDarling says:

      Well, well, well.

      So the charade of separation of party and Government was enacted to save keep NS clean. Behind the scenes Peter Murrell was intent on destroying AS. Each partner in the marriage acting as separate agents to keep the power squarely with the present regime.

      All the while the identity foot soldiers undermine and misdirect any and all manoeuvres for Independence with their agenda. The social media acolytes plead for understanding for NS and deny such a terrible thing is within her repertoire.

      What a tangled web. You have to ask is this personal because to mount such an attack with potentially such serious consequences speaks of malice and a vendetta. Truly disgusting.

    77. Graham A Fordyce says:

      Dear Mr Murrell and Ms Sturgeon

      All Power corrupts.

      Yours sincerely

      Scotland

    78. Graham A Fordyce says:

      I still do not understand why there required to be a plot against Alex Salmond, though I’m in no doubt there was one. What threat was he to Sturgeon or anyone else, given he failed in 2014 and fell on his sword? Why would he and anyone else in the SNP hierarchy have differed in their ambition for independence? It is very difficult to imagine that Nicola Sturgeon does not crave independence but is content to bask in the glory and position of First Minister. How can someone who has campagined the whole of her adult life suddenly become so blinkered? It’s all very troubling. If we cannot behave as grown ups, what chance does our country have of growing up?

    79. McHaggis69 says:

      Now you see that Whatsapp message in print.
      For me, its like –

      WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!!

      These woke roasters running the SNP are gonna cost us, not get us independence.
      I am SO glad I cancelled my membership last month.

    80. CameronB Brodie says:

      There ain’t much WOKE in the SNP’s practice, which appears to have been poorly instructed in the principles of inclusive law and public policy. That’s probably why they’ve capitulated to Brexit. Whatever, I’m ragging.

      OECD Toolkit for Mainstreaming
      and Implementing Gender Equality

      Implementing the 2015 OECD Recommendation
      on Gender Equality in Public Life

      https://www.oecd.org/gov/toolkit-for-mainstreaming-and-implementing-gender-equality.pdf

    81. Bill Craig says:

      If that Murrell/Ruddick document is genuine, which I don’t doubt, it raises for me the possibility that Murrell and others are agents of the British state instructed to undermine the SNP. It would have been a logical, normal, thing for British state to seek to do, so we should not be surprised.
      I see no logic in an attack by the political side of the party on a former leader who stood down at a reasonable time, but this seems to have been an attack by employees of the party. What would they stand to gain by their actions? The court case may have pretended to be part of the “me too” movement, but the accusations, bar one, (all disbelieved) were so trivial as to be a disgrace to that movement.

      What we should always have been concerned about was that the leader of the party was married to the chief executive employed by the party. That should never have been allowed.

      The First Minster’s position is undermined by her closeness to Mr Murrell, and we must now wait to see what happens next.

    82. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      For the rest of my life, and for the last six years, my birthday has been corrupted by this depressing shit. yay! 🙂

    83. twathater says:

      Indycar Gordon today referencing the Vienna convention Article 60+1=2=3 Part of which

      ” Termination or suspension of the operation of a treaty as a consequence of its breach 1. A material breach of a bilateral treaty by one of the parties entitles the other to invoke the breach as a ground for terminating the treaty or suspending its operation in whole or in part.

      2. A material breach of a multilateral treaty by one of the parties entitles: (a) the other parties by unanimous agreement to suspend the operation of the treaty in whole or in part or to terminate it either
      (i) in the relations between themselves and the defaulting State; or
      (ii) as between all the parties; (b) a party specially affected by the breach to invoke it as a ground for suspending the operation of the treaty in whole or in part in the relations between itself and the defaulting State

      There is much more but it shows we have OPTIONS

    84. twathater says:

      Posted this on end of last thread but want opinions

      twathater says:
      18 September, 2020 at 5:31 pm

      All the talk of vote or don’t vote is further evidence of the BLACKMAIL,BLACKMAIL which I have been going on about for ages, not only is Sturgeon NOT rising to the Imperial (not a typo) Market she is still so reluctant to mention independence

      As Kenny McAskill is wont to post on here, howsabout Kenny you KNOW the depth of feeling on here regards Sturgeon and her woke cabal why not liase with the REAL genuine independence supporting MP’S and MSP’S and either FORCE Sturgeon to legally challenge the Imperial Markets bill or name a date for indy ref2 if she won’t do either then howsabout a LEADERSHIP challenge by Joanna Cherry, with the situation and feelings being in the dumps I would even join the SNP to vote for her

      Sturgeon’s disinterest, capitulation , procrastination and cowardice is THREATENING our nation , surely all the official MP’S MSP’S cannot be happy that THEIR country is being destroyed by a DICTATOR who will NOT use every means at her disposal to defeat our subjugation

    85. Brian MacLeod says:

      Simple:

      Article 50
      Corruption of a representative of a State
      If the expression of a State’s consent to be bound by a treaty has been procured through the corruption of its representative directly or indirectly by another negotiating State, the State may invoke such corruption as invalidating its consent to be bound by the treaty.

    86. Scott Mc says:

      What odds you giving on Bojo not granting a section 30 order during his current stint as PM?

    87. Polly says:

      A few things have been nagging at me about this. When I first heard of the quote from Evans about battle, just after the trial I think it came out, I’d assumed it might have been some of the stuff Salmond’s people had dug up, especially since he talked of wanting it to see light of day. Then of course it was said it was from the prosecution side found the autumn before the trial, not allowed during trial.

      Why would the Scottish government request prosecutors in the Salmond trial (as is stated they did) get a warrant to obtain the documents, including whatspp messages, which would show things detrimental to themselves? Things like Murrell and Ruddick conversation or Evans battle/war statement which damage themselves far more than Salmond. Prosecutors would be interested in those type of conversations in providing them evidence or dirt about Salmond, but why would SNP request there be a warrant so the prosecution could choose what to take? They could have handed over enough themselves referencing Salmond keeping incriminating stuff aside, without requesting a warrant.

      Did they not really ‘request’ a warrant as they say now but rather prosecutors were forced to get a warrant for the documents as the inquiry now seems like it might have to? Or were they insisting on a warrant knowing stuff damaging to the party would come out? If the latter, it’s further proof they’re out to destroy the whole party not just Salmond. It would also be interesting who made the decision to request a warrant to ensure ‘legal certainty’ about the documents being provided.

    88. Alwi says:

      Graham A Fordyce says:

      18 September, 2020 at 6:11 pm
      “I still do not understand why there required to be a plot against Alex Salmond, though I’m in no doubt there was one.”

      He expressed an intention to return to politics.

    89. Mac says:

      So just as the SNP leadership should have been exploiting the chaos of BREXIT and using their many opportunities to secure a defined path to independence while scoring massive gains on the YES meter… what were they doing?

      They were orchestrating rape charges against Alex Salmond.

      So instead of winning big using BREXIT, the SNP inexplicably fiddled away those chances away and instead replaced them with a show trial of the man who contributed the most to the independence movement on bullshit charges they played a huge part in conjuring up. Look at the opportunity that gave to the media to smear Salmond at every turn when instead the focus should have been on other things…

      And who did this. The very top leadership of the SNP.

      And who helped them, Police Scotland, the CPS and the unionist press.

      ‘I know, let’s take what should be a massive win and deliberately convert it into a massive loss.’

      Now why would they do that.

    90. Mac says:

      Oops forgot you cant use the “R” word. Comment stuck in moderation.

    91. Lennie says:

      They say never judge a book by its cover but he does look like an odiously sleekit and smug wee creature.



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