Pie in your face
Posted on
March 23, 2018 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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Wings Over ScotlandA tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
I find all the swearing in that fucking offensive.
Exactly.
If that’s your argument for free speech, what would happen if he stood intside and shouted “you fucking Cunts” 23 times?
In fact he shouted Gas the Jews 23 times accompanied with a few Sieg Heil’s? is that free speech? Hail victory, Gas the Jews,Hail victory, Gas the Jews, Hail victory, Gas the Jews,
Not funny? would you like it to accompanied by some goose stepping rabbits? Would that be funny.
Now Nazis are bad that,s the joke, Nazis would gas the mouthy SNP in a heart beat, so lets try that Gas the SNP, Gas the SNP, Hail victory, Gas the SNP.
Are you laughing yet?
He sounds a tad upset. (quite rightly).
So far as I am concerned people should be free to say virtually anything.
I don’t think people should have to hide who or what they are.
This makes it very easy for me to identify who are in fact arseholes, and not worthy of my time or money.
Pushing everything underground is not the way forward. Shine a light on it. Remove the shadows. Then we can all see clearly.
This is misleading – The man was’nae convicted for being offensive to Nazis, he was convicted for being offensive to Jews. He wasnae convicted for what his dog did, he was convicted for what he did. He wasnae convicted for mocking Nazis he was convicted for mocking the Holocaust. As for that being subjective, in Scotland apparently not, for the avoidance of doubt we made it objective. Aye “we”, we elected representatives to legislate on what the law would be and lo and behold the Sheriff applied that law and it was in regard to SFA that Pie is ranting about.
@Proctor Lewis,
Yes, because you have just committed the same offence.
Orwell was right. There will be no words to communicate with because they will all have been outlawed. Should we now ban documentaries on Auschwitz because somebody will recall their behaviour in descriptive form ?
How would we know extremism if we never experience it or learn from it.?
The video in question highlighted the fact that a country’s population ,like a Pavlova dog fell into line with the maltreatment and extermination of other human beings. That is the lesson to be learned, because believe me ,hatred of other human groups is still with us today and presents as much danger as it ever did.
Classic 🙂
I don’t know the facts of the case. However, it seems that someone videos his pug dog raising its paw which he saw as being like a Nazi salute. He added in a voice over that said ‘Gas the Jews’.
That was the case against him, yes?
Now as for saying ‘Gas the SNP’, that’s polite compared to some of what’s said.
I don’t like the style of this video, but I can appreciate the commentators anger.
@Proctor Lewis
‘Goose stepping rabbits’ … teeheeheehee!
It’s probably not a conviction for teaching a dog to do the nazi salute for comedy. It will be his “gas the Jews” line that got him convicted, not the pooch nazi salute. That line is racism. And there is nothing even remotely funny about the Holocaust.
Arsenal fans used to shout yid and gas chamber hiss at Tottenham fans and didn’t get nicked for it.
I’m missing the main point here, I know, but is our legal system really ‘backwards’?
Bad acting:
One stupid judge is an idiot but it’s just as stupidly idiotic and probably more offensive to blame the Scottish legal system when every legal system in the world gets stuff wrong
So I find the guy who presented this more offensive than the story he was rightly complaining about
But then again he was only attempting to make himself more of the story than the story
Better acting lessons for the faux outraged
Or, why not just teach the dog to salute to Heil Hitler? Think about saying it out loud, “gas the Jews,” to a Jew. Would it cause offence and if he can say it to a dog, can he say it to an adult Jew or child in public, at the shops or in the pub perhaps?
Freedom of speech comes with legal responsibility, its not called Freedom to Insult and Hurt.
I wonder if Mel Brooks is worried yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPXHRX8Q2hs
Nein! Ich asken fur eine glass of juice! Dummkopf!
heedtracker says:
Time and time again I am thankful for your intelligence!
indeed it was his statement repeated 23 times, that and his (alleged)fucking smirking in court.
He’s not wrong
Every social media and online platform has an issue with ‘context’ and seems unable to deal with genuine issues. The world and all subject matter are not black and white – the literal definition of something is often used against the very subject in comedy and everyday life.
I recall people finding Billy Connolly unacceptable due to his use of swear words – this isn’t really any different today. ‘Context’is important in the Engish language as there are so many words that have opposing definitions.
Will the judge lock up the dog or is the dog innocent in the eyes of the law?
Every social media and online platform has an issue with ‘context’ and seems unable to deal with genuine issues. The world and all subject matter are not black and white – the literal definition of something is often used against the very subject in comedy and everyday life.
I recall people finding Billy Connolly unacceptable due to his use of swear words – this isn’t really any different today. ‘Context’is important in the English language as there are so many words that have opposing definitions.
Will the judge lock up the dog or is the dog innocent in the eyes of the law?
@Heed tracker,
Do you actually think there are not people out there who still say “gas the Jews”. There most certainly are. The point is if we ignore that completely then we allow it to happen by default. It is horrible language and it is unpalatable, but it is happening.
We should never avoid it or ignore it. My point about classical conditioning still stands. This comic for lack of a better word displayed exactly what happened in Germany during ww2. Normal people turned into monsters by propoganda ,rules,policy, and ego.it’s as easy to condition a human as it is to condition a dog.
mike cassidy says:
23 March, 2018 at 12:49 pm
I wonder if Mel Brooks is worried yet.
No Mel Brooks would not be found guilty at Airdrie Sheriff Court Mike, precisely because at no time in that brilliant satire of the Nazi’s, do they even mention the Holocaust, let alone something like “gas the Jews.”
If you can see why Mel Brooks didn’t do this, you will understand the verdict in Airdrie.
Have you ever said give us a paw to a dog, bet you have and you never thought it could mean anything but a treat.
This is dangerous ground alright as it could be up to a Tory
and Right Wing extremist Judge whether your harmless but cutting joke against Westminster is worthy of life imprisonment.
I do consider the Jewish comments to be offensive and if intended to promote such acts, or offend a Jew directly, it should be an offence.
If taken as a joke in bad humor among friends it has to be recognized as such.
Where would Jewish Mel Brooks stand with his hilarious song Springtime for Hitler and Germany?
One of his lines was:
“Come on now be a smarty, let’s go join the Nazi Party”.
Could you convict a Jew for making Nazis a figure of fun?
I personally find the Westminster Government have much in common with prewar Germany.
Both consider themselves to be world elite, both attacked the disabled and foreign workers, both controlled the media and forced their propaganda and lies upon the people.
Although Germany Invaded and raped many countries resources, it was nothing to what happened to what they called Commonwealth Colonies.
Stolen Wealth would have been much more fitting.
Hail Boris!
The amount of people who are commenting about this on the web who clearly haven’t even bothered to watch what they’re whipping themselves into a faux rage for is astonishing and terrifying. As is the fact that so many people seem totally cool with the concept that freedom of speech should only be *allowed* as long as they personally approve of the sentiment being expressed. Just makes me despair. What a bunch of utter fools some people turn out to be – having one of our most important rights stripped from us (particularly if you’re an independence supporter) and cheering whilst it happens.
Q: How many Jews can you fit in a car?
A: Two in the front and three in the back, but it depends on the size and type of car, and the road traffic law governing the legal limit of passengers.
heedtracker says:
Even more reveling is the previous verdicts of the Sheriff, I came across him years ago, can’t go into anything about that, but it involved me reviewing his sentencing patterns, one that stood out was an assault and robbery of a Nun, anyway he is a liberal, I would argue one of the most liberal on the circuit.
But and this is a big one, don’t ever take the proverbial, he has a low tolerance for smart arsed pannels.
Smart arse, eh? GUILTY!
A nasty anti-Semite walks into a bar and is about to order a drink when he sees a guy close by with kippa, tzitzis, and payos. He doesn’t have to be an Einstein to know that this guy is Jewish. So he shouts over to the bartender so everyone can hear, “Drinks for everyone in here, bartender, but not for that Jew over there.
Soon after the drinks have been handed out, he notices that the Jewish guy is smiling, and waves to him and says, “Thank you.”
This infuriates him and in a loud voice, he once again orders drinks for everyone except the Jew. But as before, this does not seem to worry the Jewish guy who continues to smile, and again says, “Thank you.”
So the guy says to the bartender, “What’s the matter with that Jew? I’ve ordered two rounds of drinks for everyone in the bar except him, and all he does is smile and thank me. Is he nuts?
“Nope,” replies the bartender. “He owns the place.”
Kirsty says:
What freedom of Speech?
When John Stuart Mill wrote in the 1800’s on the principals of free speech he also put a limit on free expression: “the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.
So the father of free speech, himself stated do no harm.
It amazes me the amount of people commenting on legal principal who haven’t the first idea what that principal is, instead have some vague notion of their rights.
I see this again and again, people shouting for their rights, but never even a backwards glace to their responsibilities.
Me me me, Thatchers Britain indeed.
Emil Fackenheim was a survivor of Auschwitz. Noted philosopher. He always maintained that humour kept many people alive during the horror of their ordeal ,who otherwise would have died much sooner.
One of his favourite jokes was
“Prior to coming in here we ate like horses and waddled like ducks, now we eat horses if we’re lucky.
Whenever we saw somebody moving quicker than we could we always thought his horse must have been a racehorse.”
Imagine having humour under these grotesque circumstances.
Humour is universal. It mocks everybody and everything regardless. It is a survival mechanism when everything else fails us.
@Proctor Lewis
I sure am.
Proctor Lewis
Interesting. BBC report says he used “statements such as “gas the Jews” and “Sieg Heil.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43478925
Freedom of speech should be protected at all costs. It is the fastest way to know how much of a wank someone really is. They open their mouth and shite comes out so you know they’re a wank without having to get to know them first. It’s an invaluable time saving practice. Still game got it spot on with the good guy, wank, routine. No freedom speech and you have to wait to see who the wank is.
Favourite joke in the Warsaw ghetto.
There are only two actual types of Aryon.
Non Aryon and Barb-Aryon.
@HandandShrimp
Couldn’t agree more.
Pie was funniest when he started these sketches. You didn’t recognise the face, and thought a bona fide journalist was having a breakdown. More power to him mind, he’s no friend of the media and that has to be a good thing.
What are we going to do people? We are all angry about Brexit, angry about Cambridge Analytica, angry and concerned about Russia, concerned about BritNat xenophobia spreading in our direction, angry with the BBC, disgusted by Boris Johnson, angry about Tory greed and sociopathic policy, angry about Holywood being threatened, bemused by Scottish fisherman being sold down the river, angry that our renewable’s industries are having cuts in funding, angry that our oil is still exploited while Norway is embarrassed by its riches, angry that our news media is a propagandist’s utopia, angry that we are lied to about ship building contracts, angry that our NHS is routinely smeared by the BritNat media, angry about illegally bombing brown people, angry about sucking up to orange people, angry about Britain the Great not being Britain at all until the 18th Century, angry that our sovereignty is routinely pissed all over, angry that Dark Money and electoral skulduggery is at large in our Nation, angry that pricks like Farage and Johnson can curl our toes with embarrassment insulting our friends and pretending to speak for us, angry that the SNP which does speak for us is forever walking a tightrope above a bear pit of frothing BBC rage monsters …
How do we do it folks? How do we get this chaotic diversity of gusts, gales and grievances from every direction, – channelled, coordinated, and blowing in the same direction, and filling our sails with unstoppable momentum for Scottish Independence?
Heard a coloured Scot talking on radio. He reckoned racist opinions haven’t changed as much as people think. It’s just than folks with nasty opinions have learnt to guard where and to whom they express them.
I think attitudes have improved, but I’m also sure this guy is right.
It’s not nice to have to put up at some nasty verbal attack when it’s targeted directly at you, but as others say, it lets everyone know who the arseholes are!
What trained dugs and corny joke have to do with it, pass.
If you are not laughing, in a sad sort of way, applauding the position the comedian is taking or deeply worried about his message (maybe all three), well, you are either an idiot or an apologist for fascism.
Take your pick. Because it really is that simple.
That some people don’t get the importance of this is astounding.
Bob Mack says:
23 March, 2018 at 12:56 pm
@Heed tracker,
Do you actually think there are not people out there who still say “gas the Jews”
Its not me Bob. Its the Law what was listening. The comedian in that vid says its the judge and its Scottish law. He’s wrong, they are one and the same.
If you ever end up in a Scottish court, note how everyone stands and bows to the Judge, but its not to the Judge, its the Law.
So who do we take to be the arbiters of the Law, comedians like the one in the video up there, or the Judge?
1.45 min’s in, the comedian says, the judge is saying “basically” that “we are not allowed to make fun of the nazis, in case it is misinterpreted.”
No that’s not what the Law is saying, the Law is saying we are not allowed to make fun of the Holocaust.
He’s only a comedian, trying to make us laugh and that’s great.
Comedians are fun and sometimes say important stuff. We clap them and we love them and some think they are really clever and important too. And that’s great but they are not the Law.
If we do not like the Law, we can change it.
Gotta’ love Pie’s faux outrage. I am sure the man who made the video is happy to have such a champion of free speech on his side. I am rolling my eyes at the hysterical “this is a dark day for free speech” doomsayers.
Oh, no. You cant say “gas the Jews” and “Sieg Heil” without consequences. What is the world coming to? Oh, what an affront to free speech.
Fuck off. The guy who made the video is a twat. And Pie is a twat for his “the Scottish legal system is backwards” comment.
I bet it wouldn’t have been considered free speech if the guy had been saying “gas the Muslims, gas the Muslims.”
@ Galamcennalath,
The guy is right. Only the other night Tommy Robinson attended a football match in Airdrie and was warmly welcomed by most of the support present. Imagine the former
head of EDL being applauded. He also has links with the Ibrox club.
Now if somebody like that is coming here it is for a reason and no mistake. Airdrie was a hotbed of the Orange Lodge, and still is I believe. Something is brewing.
Racism was casual when I was much younger and to be honest I feel that tolerance and acceptance is still in its infancy with a long way to develop.
@Proctor Lewis says: 23 March, 2018 at 12:17 pm:
“Are you laughing yet?”
Yes! But really I shouldn’t because congenital idiots like you can’t help yourselves. Oop! Apologies to congenital idiots.
Scottish Steve
No very bright are you.
We’ll go with ‘Idiot’ for you.
That’s being kind.
@Takeour blueback says: 23 March, 2018 at 12:30 pm:
“‘Goose stepping rabbits’ … teeheeheehee!”
Yeah! It is nearly as funny as goose stepping geese.
Mind you, Goose stepping geese with wee Hitler moustaches – now THAT is funny.
Spaced out…
https://i.imgur.com/QYsTEMj.gif
Heedy and Peffers were involved in an unprovoked attacked on me late last night.
I commented earlier on last night saying that the SNP Rep on QT should not have taken sides with the Tory Government regarding the Russian poisoning.
I said that the SNP should keep a low profile on this topic until the SNP have solid evidence of who carried out this attack.
Now Heedy and Peffers decided to attack me for having such a view.
A few other posters also agreed with me saying that the SNP should not take sides with the Tory Government. But Peffers decides that the other posters are actually me. They accuse me of using other names to post under.
So to finish up, I think Peffers and Heedy are losing the plot here, they are taking paranoia to a new level.
They can’t grasp the fact that others have a different point of view from them.
As I have said, they sit at the doors of Wings Over Scotland like a couple of old Gate Keepers.
Get a life you two.
And let me repeat again,,I don’t rate Ian Blackford as a leader, He is incompetent and underwhelming and a new Westminster leader should be found.IMHO
No doubt the two Wings attack dogs will be on my case in very short order.
I am waiting.
@Derek says: 23 March, 2018 at 12:40 pm:
“I’m missing the main point here, I know, but is our legal system really ‘backwards’?”
No, Derek, they are, though, rather like the curate’s egg and bad in parts – or rather, “airts an pairts”.
I am waiting.
We know its you Rock. What a laugh you are:D
Didn’t some royal dood dress up as a nazi not so very many years ago, for a party?
heedtracker says:
23 March, 2018 at 12:44 pm
Or, why not just teach the dog to salute to Heil Hitler? Think about saying it out loud, “gas the Jews,” to a Jew. Would it cause offence and if he can say it to a dog, can he say it to an adult Jew or child in public, at the shops or in the pub perhaps?
Freedom of speech comes with legal responsibility, its not called Freedom to Insult and Hurt.
Aye! heedtracker, but both humour and offence are rather like beauty – in the eye and mind of the beholder.
Freedom of speech very much depends upon context. For example freedom of speech cannot be applied to the likes of, “Tam The Gun”, when he shouted, “Fire”, on Edinburgh Castle esplanade but if he shouted it in a crowded auditorium the same word would be devastating.
See the SNP won the Penicuik by-election last night. Good to see a run of by-election wins. That honeymoon period still going 🙂
SNP now biggest party on Mid Lothian Council. Labour will need a deal with the Tories…never a good look.
@ahundredthidiot
Oh, no. My feelings.
@HandandShrimp…
They already were, so no change..
And yes, it’s not a good look.
@Adrian B says: 23 March, 2018 at 12:55 pm:
“Will the judge lock up the dog or is the dog innocent in the eyes of the law?”
Don’t be too sure that they won’t convict the wee dog. Do you know what they call the people of Hartlepool, Adrian?
See this:-
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/The-Hanging-of-the-Hartlepool-Monkey/
We sometimes look after a friend’s dog who barks at dark skinned people. The contrast between headwear and the face is the critical thing. White hat? woof, woof, woof. Darker hat? woof?
His eyesight is not the best and I think he sees it as the face not being there and it creeps him out. Is he a racist dog? His fur is white but underneath it his skin is black if that is relevant.
I hope nobody ever videos an instance and puts on the tube.
Somewhere in Britnat land i imagine this job advertisement on display…
…….
Desperately seeking attention whore, wanted for pro indy blog site..must be a tick as pigshit unionist with pretentions of ‘being pro indy, honest guv’.
The successful candidate must persistently attack respected posters and desperately attempt to sow division to distract from the fact that, indy IS coming, brexit is a total clusterfuck, the WM unionists hate Scotland, and are desperate to prove it at every opportunity they get.
Have you got the ability to succeed as a Britnat yoon troll ?
Go on…give it a bash…nobody will ever suss you out…!!
…………..
The more they post, the more we know we are winning.
“This is misleading – The man was’nae convicted for being offensive to Nazis, he was convicted for being offensive to Jews.”
Well, no. If we’re being picky, he was convicted for being offensive to ONE person, who happened to be Jewish but more pertinently was a complete fucking idiot who didn’t understand the joke.
Scottish Steve
Your remark about followers of Islam is unbelievably offensive and you should be ashamed, nay, reported to the cops, it surely must represent some form of hate speech. Reprehensible.
Forget context….you know…..that has nothing to do with anything, apparently.
So, you can expect a knock on the door.
Getting the message yet?
@Bob Mack says: 23 March, 2018 at 12:56 pm:
“We should never avoid it or ignore it. My point about classical conditioning still stands. This comic for lack of a better word displayed exactly what happened in Germany during ww2. Normal people turned into monsters by propoganda ,rules,policy, and ego.it’s as easy to condition a human as it is to condition a dog.”
Thing is Bob Mack, one persons sense of offence is another’s sense of humour. How come it is illegal in Scotland to offend a Jew, a person with a different skin colour or on a different sexual orientation but all right to call a Scot a Sweatie?
Is it all right to call all Scots Jock?
Is it funny to call an Irish person Paddy or Mick or a Welsh person Taffie?
Now don’t bring up the gas chambers or prison camps there is almost certainly great numbers of Irish people been murdered just for being Irish since the Norman Conquest of Ireland began in 1169 to the present day and the killing is still going on.
Why then is it illegal to offend some but not others?
Well, no. If we’re being picky, he was convicted for being offensive to ONE person, who happened to be Jewish but more pertinently was a complete fucking idiot who didn’t understand the joke.”
The Law says it is an offence to make racist jokes because its racist.
You can make nazi jokes because there is not a nazi race. Although they thought there was or is.
@Artyhetty
I’m guessing you mean this royal dood.
https://www.sbs.com.au/guide/article/2017/08/28/how-prince-harry-went-nazi-dress-ups-model-royal
@muscleguy.
Dogs are largely blind to colours, although they can see Yellow, apparently (how they know this..feck knows..maybe fido told them..lol)
It reminds me of when my son, as a youngster, asked why Zebra were black and white stripes not brown, as black and white stood them out.
Most predators see in black and white, and as such, black and white stripes are actually top camouflage.
Turns out, predators are like Unionists, they see everything in black and white, by choice of course, as that suits their needs.
Bob Mack @ 12:56
I’m sorry, I disagree, it wasn’t comics like this who allowed the rise of Hitler in 1930’s Germany, it was great swaves of people happy to go along, not object, toe the party line, keep quiet, sit on the fence, nod politely and take their f**king medicine in the form of government propaganda.
You know, like the hordes of offended idiots who think this comic is just reprehensible and should see the inside of a prison cell.
Those that stood up and spoke out in the 30’s were dealt with severely – now, let that be a lesson to us all. When you are dealing with the Devil, you better box clever.
We can start by safeguarding free speech.
kinters = Indy2
kinters + Indy2 x Rock = lots and lots of laughs:D
There isn’t a Jewish or Muslim race either, Heed, but I’m sure you know that already. Sop pulling mein curly tail.
*stop*
When something normally offensive is said in the format of a joke, that context should tell us it is not to be taken seriously, that the pepetrator is not in agreement with the content rather that they are mocking it.
However, sometimes it is very difficult to see the jocular association, for instance in
“Because the Scottish Legal System is so backward.”
I must admit, the Nazis fucking the Von Trapps made me giggle, Im i now a criminal?
Reluctant Nationalist says:
23 March, 2018 at 3:44 pm
There isn’t a Jewish or Muslim race either, Heed, but I’m sure you know that already. Sop pulling mein curly tail.
If you say so.
Again, its not me, its the Law.
Law says otherwise.
It is interesting how comedy works though, because it’s comedy.
Do we have Law by comedic effect or is it affect?
Some comics say nothing is beyond comedy.
Law says no, some things are not for comedy.
Law by comedian is probably not that great a plan.
Although they do say the court jester is the cleverest in the court, or something like that.
Morgatron says:
23 March, 2018 at 3:50 pm
I must admit, the Nazis fucking the Von Trapps made me giggle, Im i now a criminal?
No. It is not against the Law to laugh at nazis.
I should charge legal rates for this legal advice.
Better Call HT:D
People can murder millions, embezzle £Billions of public money, commit serious electoral fraud Damage, destruct and destroy the world, They get honoured and knighthoods.
Teach a dog a few trick. There is a possibility they will get jail.
Absolutely ridiculous. The Law is an ass. Digging themselves into a hole. No one complained. Just a bit of fun. Or are the Royals and Masons going to be convicted for dress up like Nazis and Hitler. ‘Fawkty Towers’. Monty Python. Spike Milligan, the Goons. .
No doubt the donations will be rolling in. Get this appealed and quashed. It is just appalling.
It’s like the Private Eye trials. 1960’s.
Guy says up front that he’s going to turn something cute into the most horrible thing possible as to annoy his partner.
Being picky the pug’s enthusiasm for “gas the jews” diminishes as the video goes on and he doesn’t salute it once. He salutes sieg hiel though.
The context remains, the most horrible thing the guy can come up with is being a Nazi. He trains a dog to give a Nazi salute. Something the Nazis would give you grief for if they suspected and kill you for if they could prove it.
A military state. Offensive. A 17 year old has been given an illegal eight month jail sentence for trying to get a thug in a uniform off her yard.
Killing people, assassinating people, involved in terror. Illegally taking people’s land. Corralling people. Preventing people from working. Depriving people of water. Aided by the Britsh State. Balfour Agreement. 1917. The corrupt Westminster political parties again. Causing trouble again.
It’s a wonder they did not have the dog put down. That would have started a rammy. In the U.K. Some people care more about animals than they do about children. Going by charities donation.
Find this whole post slightly disturbing and offensive. Is it just me? Look forward to the cartoon tomorrow.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
23 March, 2018 at 3:20 pm
Well, no. If we’re being picky, he was convicted for being offensive to ONE person, who happened to be Jewish (Apologies for edit but this is bit I want to comment on).
========================
I think this comes to the crux of the thing. He didn’t aim the joke (good or bad) at the Jewish guy – by all accounts it was at his girlfriend (and 7 followers at the time). Because it went viral – and there’s no way of knowing what will and won’t do so – the Jewish guy came across it and decided he was offended.
I can’t see myself how there can be a case for a hate crime unless it was aimed at this guy (or he posted a link on a Jewish forum or something) – at most it’s a bad taste joke. As some have said, some female politicians have received massive misogynistic abuse by the barrow load (aimed directly and personally at them) and so far I’ve not heard of the guys who did that being arrested.
Surely there must be a clear intent that the comments/video whatever else was directed at someone or some group? Or at least given what you posted, there ought to be and apparently there isn’t.
I’m confused.
I thought the police found someone to ask if it was offensive thus “entraping” the poor sod?
LIVE from Pravda Quay
with Union Jackie Kim Ono:
https://i.imgur.com/MUDQ41m.jpg
If just being stupid is an offensive crime we’re winning the next Indyref by a landslide
Judges will be locking Yoons up all day long
Do they still get the vote in jail even if they’re stupid coz that wouldn’t make sense, if they’re too stupid to be amongst unstupid non offensive people they surely can’t be allowed to vote stupidly
This looks amazing. Hands off our parliament! Where’s your cameras BBC? indeed.
https://www.facebook.com/yesstirling/videos/1753698348025134/
@ Hamish 100 – no it’s not just you. I haven’t seen the original video but, in principle, I would find the phrase “gas the Jews (or anyone else)” offensive.
But it isn’t a hate crime. It’s a joke, in poor taste. So he should not be convicted of a crime.
Convicting people of crimes they haven’t committed on the complaint of someone else is unacceptable. We’ve been here before, burning witches at the stake. In fact has the Witchcraft Act been repealed?
So it is official The BBC has covered the HOOP event and as you know with BBC accounting standards “hundreds of people”, attended. They merely forgot to mention that it was in the tens of hundreds. The idea is to make us seem as if we have no power… and that apathy will set in… When is the next BBC march i would love to join the hundreds that would come 50 hundreds would be fine. But like birds the BBC cannot count beyond a certain number, 98 – 99 – 100 – Many
Capella,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft_Acts
🙂
Freedom of speech is not ment to protect the speech that we do like.
But rather to protect the speech that we don’t.
And we forget that at our peril.
If Pie * Radius Squared = Area of a circle,
Where
R = Rock
2 = Indy2
K = Kinters
KR2 = ‘Yer a Pie’
Does this count?
Hi Smallaxe – great to see you posting. Thx for the link. I see the Witchcraft Act was replaced by the Fraudulent Mediums Act which was repealed in 2008. Only 10 years ago.
The Witchcraft Act of 1735 remained in force in Britain well into the 20th century, until its eventual repeal with the enactment of the Fraudulent Mediums Act of 1951.
The Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951 was repealed on 26 May 2008 by new Consumer Protection Regulations following an EU directive targeting unfair sales and marketing practices.
Headtracker,
Phew! Thanks for the info.
Now where did i park my panzer?
Adolf Morgatron .
Hi, Capella,
Another interesting fact about Witchcraft;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Duncan
Liz g,
Hope you are well, my dear friend.
🙂
O/T
TODAY is the last day of #Scotland and #Brexit crowdfunder! There’s still time to support the project, until 8.45pm tonight. We are grateful to everyone who has already contributed, and thanks for your patience with the many tweets!
https://twitter.com/SCER_eu/status/977143980222832640
Evening William Wallace, aye Fernando heard the boom-booms ~ top tune.
Song for Daisy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYfUlGORKkw
Hey Smallaxe, hope Scotland WINS at the footy tonight.
Wishing ye all well Wingers x.
Pie….. mmmh… dough!
Hi Cactus,
Even although I have no interest in football, I hope Scotland win also.
Btw, Who are they playing?
😉
Nana,
You go and put your feet up and have a cup of tea.
🙂
Hey Smallaxe ~
Ah dinnae follow fitba maself, ah heard it the radio.
It’s our excellent international neighbours, Costa Rica.
19:45 kick off.
HOME game.
@Capella says: 23 March, 2018 at 4:56 pm:
“Convicting people of crimes they haven’t committed on the complaint of someone else is unacceptable. We’ve been here before, burning witches at the stake. In fact has the Witchcraft Act been repealed?”
Perhaps you haven’t heard about this witchcraft case from WWII in Scotland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Duncan
Further to my comment about Helen Duncan I remembered this YouTube clip and searched for it:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As82uPOADrA
Hoop event was great. So glad I made the time to come down from Aberdeen for it. By far the best bit was when we linked arms and shouted out HANDS OFF OUR PARLIAMENT! All the way round and up to 5 deep in places.
Thousands there. Yes it was Indy. But more than that – it felt like we were defending our parliament
Well done to the organisers. And on a school day too. .
O/T
Just noticed a tweet from someone called Hothersall, apparently if the voters in Penicuik had voted differently then Labour could have won the seat. So it was a virtual Labour win just like last years election.
The video is badly put together.
Cut the intro down to end on the most evil thing, no need to mention the word Nazi.
Only one “bass the Jews” or in hindsight re dub with “kill the undesirables”
One “Sieg Hiel”
Probably safest to stick with the Hitler morph. Whilst the bug eyed pug face does slightly resemble Farage UKIP are short of cash and might go for a law suit.
@Terry 6:28pm
Kudos to you, Terry, and to everyone who attended the Hoop. Hopefully the National will have some good photos tomorrow.
Evening McDuff ~
A powerful posting of yours on the pinned post:
https://wingsoverscotland.charitycheckout.co.uk/cf/The-Final-Countdown
Get (or continue to be) passionate about iScotland.
One can express themselves in many ways.
This is IT.
Does anyone think this problem may have started way back with the introduction of political correctness and diversity training?
We seem to have been quite happy to have been dictated to as to what we could or couldn’t call a corner shop or a Chinese take-away. That to me was all a bit crazy and dictorial and basically a denial of freedom of speech. Being trained to use certain language isn’t going to make a person less racist etc. I think we might have been better off without the political correctness & diversity training at least then we wouldn’t be a risk of electing racist/misogynistic/homophobic politicians and we may not have this problem now with freedom of speech.
What does diversity training & political correctness do? It seems to me it just serves to help the racist/misogynist/homophobe etc hide.
Does any of that make sense? Probably not!
My gut feeling is that the UK is heading towards becoming a fascist state. Next thing will be the UK withdrawing from the ECHR.
Can you imagine the Tories & the DUP making decisions about our human rights.
PS I heart Pie
Je suis Pie
Think I’m finding some of the comments here far more offensive than this or even the original video.
It was a shit joke by a youtube shit poster now adopted as a mascot by real white supremacists, likely the only people willing to give him a voice and a shoulder while all the faux outrage is going on.
What’s next, crazy unionists getting indy bloggers arrested… The next stage of this downward spiral has already begun.
Never thought I’d feel the cringe again but when you have American news shows calling this out while their own cops are killing people in cold blood, you know we are all fucked if this continues.
Slippery slope but at least looks like there will be no shortage of rent-a-victims lining up for the next hate crime conviction.
Jockanese Wind Talker = Peffers Heedy
posted using one of the many names they have on here.
What a pathetic shower !!!
OT – defence
QE actually finished flight trials early, not needing a 2nd trip to sea, for the Merlin and Chinook which they did at the same time, so apparently ahead of schedule. F-35B flight trials later this year I think. Meanwhile USS Wasp are very happy with a deployment with 6 F35-B aboard and landing earlier this month.
I found this article again so have bookmarked it at last
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/aircraft-carriers-mark-growth-regional-navies-say-analysts/
Basically from that for less than $400 million, less than £300 million, any small country could have some limited naval based 5th Generation stealth air defence and ground support, with the F35-B itself expected to come down to $100 million (£80 million) each fairly soon. Expensive per hour all the same, but a considerable option for iScotland, probably for a later stage after a full defence and security review during the first parliamentary session.
For comparative cost, the latest OPV was £120 million, and the T26 expected to be £1.1 billion each.
Good to hear about the turnout for the Holyrood Hug today.
Same time again, next week, aye.
Ye already fire yer cannon at 1pm Edinburgh, add to the show. 🙂
Our iTourists would love it.
“Dan Huil says:
23 March, 2018 at 6:34 pm
@Terry 6:28pm
2Kudos to you, Terry, and to everyone who attended the Hoop. Hopefully the National will have some good photos tomorrow.”
Dan,
This might interest you;
https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/HOOP
RESPECT! And thank you,
To Tinto Chiel, his Good Lady, Terry and all who attended the event ‘Hands Off Our Parliament at Holyrood’ today.
@Smallaxe 6:45pm
Cheers, Smallaxe.
Smallaxe @ 5.38
Thank you my dear friend I am more than well..
I am buzzing with pride from the Hoops event.
I wish you could have been there,it was amazing!
Do you think,if you behaved (no much chance o that I know) you would make it to Glasgow for the next big one?
Your welcome, Dan.
🙂
Cheer up people, don’t let the bastards get you down. We know who they are!
😉
Well done to all you guys/gals & dugs – what a great turn out for the ‘HOOP’ today. As someone said earlier – on a school day too.
Heedy,,
You should write a book.
UPDATE:
Heedy and Peffers,,
You TWO should write a book and call it:
“Heedy and Peffers in Bedsit Land,,The life and Times of two Weirdos”
A bet you two don’t even own a perr a troozers between yeez, coz the two of ye never leave that stinkin pishy wee darkened bedsit of yours. Yeez sit and type oan yer wee computers aw’ day and aw’ night. Typing utter fuckin shite.
The two Gate Keepers of Wings Over Scotland say:
“Thou shalt not pass”
LOL
Ya Perr a Clowns
Told you so, we know!
🙂
Through-deck, that’s the other term, I totally forgot. Not just a large deck but a through deck. For anyone who has problems with defence terms, I still do.
Through deck. Amphibious of course for the Scottish Marines, complete with air support.
LOL
Ya Perr a Clowns
Hi Rock!How’s it hanging? You’re great fun Rock have to give you that much.
Keep it coming:D
I think it’s worth pointing out that the SG have been reviewing hate crime legislation and a report is due to be issued this spring, it’s worth a quick read on the consultation website of the definition of hate crime in Scotland under current legislation:
Hate crime is behaviour which is motivated by hatred, malice, ill-will or prejudice towards people because they form part of a specific group, such as people of a particular race or sexual orientation.
A lot of common hate crime behaviour would be criminal even if there was no specific legislation to deal with it. For example, it is a criminal offence at common law in Scotland to assault another person.
However, Parliament has passed legislation which means that where an offender has been convicted of another offence (e.g. assault, breach of the peace) and it is proved that the offence was aggravated by a particular form of prejudice, the court must record this and take the aggravation into account when determining sentence.
http://www.gov.scot/About/Review/Hate-Crime-Legislation/current-legislation
Liz g,
I’ll be doing my best, Liz, hope to see you there.
🙂
BREAKING:
Just over £1,000 to go till 200% will be funded on the main charity page.
FREE Pie for every new donor.
Howsabout.
This week:
‘Hands Off Our Parliament at Holyrood’ ~ Edinburgh
Next week:
‘Hands On Our Freedom Square’ ~ Glasgow
We could awe dae it oan the hoof.
Truth says:
23 March, 2018 at 12:25 pm
So far as I am concerned people should be free to say virtually anything.
I don’t think people should have to hide who or what they are.
This makes it very easy for me to identify who are in fact arseholes, and not worthy of my time or money.
Pushing everything underground is not the way forward. Shine a light on it. Remove the shadows. Then we can all see clearly.
Ruby replies
I totally agree with you. Perhaps if people had been allowed to say what they wanted then the result of the EU referendum wouldn’t have been such a shock. It’s better to know that you are living in a country where the majority of people are racist/xenophobic etc. It’s a bit weird to have people pretend they are something they’re not.
Like you I want all the racists, misogynists, homophobes & all arseholes to be in plain sight.
Ruby @ 6.35
Yes I do Ruby..
While not usually a popular opinion.
I always point out that the N.word (mindful of the Rev’s filters here) was never actually outlawed in the US.
It couldn’t be!
But today no decent person would use it in public discourse,and no decent person would take seriously anyone who did.
The African American community took ownership of the word.
It can be used in context in The Art’s.
That’s been the “normal” situation for decade’s now.
This was achieved without affecting their freedom of speech, but rather through social change albeit hard won social change!
But nevertheless it developed without having to resort to the law.
Therefore proving that there is no good reason to restrict our freedom, because if there was ever a term that could have made the case for banning a word it was that!
My first post brings me to my views on this article.
From the link in the Rev’s article by the Met:
A Hate Crime is defined as “Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person’s race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender.”
Sounds pretty much the same as described in my earlier post as to the Scottish definition but it is not.
In Scotland the language is subtly different according to website http://www.hatecrimescotland.org From their faq:
Question: How do I prove that something is a hate crime?
Answer: It is not your responsibility to prove that a hate crime has occurred. It is the job of the police to gather evidence from a range of sources during their investigation of an incident. This includes CCTV footage, witness statements and forensic evidence.
The Lord Advocate has told the police that an incident must be investigated as a hate crime if it is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be aggravated by prejudice.
The Lord Advocate has stated that the police’s job is to “investigate” a perceived hate crime. No more no less.
As far as I can see the police play no greater a roll in deciding whether hate crime has actually been committed than they do for any other crime such as breach of the peace or common assault.
Their job to make a decision to charge someone with a crime after the gathering of evidence, the decision to prosecute lays with the Procurator Fiscal and the decision as to guilt is either with a Sheriff/Judge or a Jury.
I don’t think we’re approaching a Police State quite yet.
The Hoops event got a wee mention on Shortbread news. Crowd no. given 1500. but that just tells me there was a helluva lot more.
Smallaxe @ 7.16
I hope so too…should be a great day.
You better mind and be good!
And if you can’t be good be careful..
Take care of yourself and tell Mrs Smallaxe, I hope to see her there too,and that I’m askin for her. X
Why do we have to put up with these yoon trolls!
Can they not be deleted.
Still freedom is a growing feeling.
Their poor old supporters are loaded into coffins everyday.
Doesn’t look good for the empire’s future.
Still never mind, freedom awaits.
Liz g @ 7:17 pm
Just because someone doesn’t use the N word in public discourse doesn’t mean they aren’t closet members of the KKK.
kinters: “stinkin pishy wee darkened bedsit’
Living the dream.
Yesindyref2 why on earth would an I Scotland want an aircraft carrier, about the only decent thing that Jim Sillars said in the first Indyref was that if we have to take one it should be used as a hospital ship to help at natural disasters or helping out poor countries as part of our foreign aid .
Nah kinters says at 6:39 pm
Jockanese Wind Talker = Peffers Heedy no I don’t actually read the posts.
Completely different styles, punctuation etc.
Whereas you and Indy2 are the same.
oh almost forgot:
GIRFUY
…………………./´¯/)
………………..,/¯../
………………./…./
…………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸
………./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
……..(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
………\……………..’…../
……….”…\………. _.·´
…………\…………..(
…………..\………….\…
From the BBC. I think they must have made a mistake, I usually get news from anybody other than the BBC.
Cambridge Analytica is facing claims it amassed the data of millions of people without their consent, based on a 2014 quiz on Facebook.
I think the important point I was trying to make is that hate by itself is not a crime, at least in Scotland.
It is an aggravation of something that is is already a crime and could therefore warrant a stiffer sentence.
The Lord Advocate has told the police that an incident must be investigated as a hate crime if it is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be aggravated by prejudice.
I’m not a lawyer and this is my take on it. If someone knows better happy to be put right.
Ruby @ 7.31
Yes I know, but they,despite having the legal protection to do so,dare not speak openly…. Why….Because they pay the price socially.
That’s a consequence I would be happy with here.
They can say whatever they like,as can I.
But everyone else is also free to conclude for themselves how they deal with it.
That’s a bit more grown up than “just” letting the courts take care of it for me.
Why should I have my free speech restricted because of them?
No law Court can prevent a racist being a racist,but the court of public opinion can reduce their power.
The racist has to self police always, rather than getting a platform to argue their case,and to be able to claim they were innocent (whether convicted or not).
Or that they paid their debt,a debt they probably believed that they didn’t really owe anyway!
Football
Those of you who know my postings know I don’t do football really but here goes
In 2014 all these football commentators and pundits including the new Scotland manager came out for NO to Scottish Independence but all of a sudden when Scotland is playing a game we’re suddenly a Nation again whoopdedoo!
They make me vomit with disgust at them
I can appreciate Stu getting rightfully antsy about being hauled up by the Met on the say-so of a single solitary anonymous person of very dubious motive. There damn well ought to be room for a fair amount of robust invective, but whatever the law may say, to be effective it also has to be precision-targeted. No need to give unnecessary openings for the usual chorus of ready-primed fake offence-takers. Even though they will pipe up anyways.
(Correct me if I’m wrong, but this “eye of the solitary offended beholder” law was one of the more absurd bits of Labourite do-goodery brought in by Blair & Co, was it not?)
As for this “comedian”, I can hardly be bothered, I’m afraid. Self-serving idiot, now giving “it’s just banter” cover to far-right groups who don’t give a flying fig about human rights or offended feelings.
And as for the btl discussion here, if any of you think that any of this angels-on-pinheads hand-wringing stuff will win over any converts to indy, think again. =sigh=
(Still, at least it seems to have stopped most of the useless diversionary posturing over the Russkis, so that’s a kind of mercy, I suppose.)
Too many are commenting and opining on a vid they have not seen nor understand the absolute dire dreadful catafuckingstrophic direction of travel if this idea of being fucking offended despite…yes DESPITE the vid in question NOT being directed at or distributed to the person who took offense.
Think about the consequences. This is a backward step. A frightening backward step into a future that none of us, if you are right thinking, want to see…
@ Smallaxe @ Robert Peffers – yes I have read about Helen Duncan. I read she was really jailed because the admiralty (Winston Churchill) couldn’t be certain she hadn’t obtained military secrets. Perhaps revealing a secret about a sunken ship in Portsmouth was bit of a mistake!
@Lenny Hartley
Ah! That’s the question. But we do live in an uncertain world, and as well as offensive, such a small self-supporting small carrier would give us the means to take back Mull, or Skye from the New Vikings, or even Rockall from the Russians!
But apart from that Ocean has done some good relief work with an RFA as well, Invincible in the Phillipines, the ability to carry helicopters and perhaps small transport planes, while also delivering trained marines to help restore order amongst looting, take fresh water where it’s polluted, food supplies, fuel, small generators, an on-board small hospital and med-evac capability with on-board small hospital, and rebuild bridges while they’re at it, it comes as dual purpose. Even in a (relatively small) war zone, or as part of a multinational peacekeeping force.
O/T
The Pain in Spain;
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/spain-s-supreme-court-jails-five-more-catalan-separatist-leaders/43996786
I see Corbyn has sacked Smith for being off message on Brexit.
There is something slightly bizarre with a perpetual rebel being so fast to pull the trigger…but it is a strange world.
As to the pug guy, I remember thinking at the time that it was a pretty poor taste practical joke to play on his girl friend but I never expected it to get to court much less result in a conviction. Yes, the guy is a diddy but the ramifications of what constitutes offence could very quickly shut an incredible amount of the internet down.
I’ve now read that the joker found guilty wasn’t found guilty of a “hate crime” he was found guilty under the Communications Act. There is more than one and I’ve no idea which one.
Just out of interest I looked for an example of which you might be found guilty of under this act, here’s one and there are many.
1 Offence of sending letters etc. with intent to cause distress or anxiety.
(1)Any person who sends to another person—
(a)a letter, electronic communication or article of any description which conveys—
(i)a message which is indecent or grossly offensive;
(ii)a threat; or
(iii)information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender; or
(b)any article or electronic communication which is, in whole or part, of an indecent or grossly offensive nature, is guilty of an offence if his purpose, or one of his purposes, in sending it is that it should, so far as falling within paragraph (a) or (b) above, cause distress or anxiety to the recipient or to any other person to whom he intends that it or its contents or nature should be communicated.
Tell you what, just reading that makes me think that if charged under this offence you’d have little chance of getting off.
The above is from the Malicious Communications Act 1988.
Robert J Sutherland @ 8.03
Mibbi yer right Robert…
But it could also be laying the ground work to argue for a Written Constitution that contains with in it —Freedom of Speech—-
A right in law we don’t currently have….it’s more of a,how should I put it..”self denying ordnance”.
And before ye say, yes but Indy first!
I would point out that thanks to US TV most people see the Right to freedom of speech as a desirable thing.
Well they can only get that with Indy and we could be explaining it as another benefit of voting Yes..Aye?
Tell you what, just reading that makes me think that if charged under this offence you’d have little chance of getting off.”
(b) above, cause distress or anxiety to the recipient or to any other person to whom he intends that it or its contents or nature should be communicated.
Only excuse he had maybe was (b) That he was not intending to cause distress or anxiety to the recipient or any other person he was “communicating” with, in particular his partner.
Hope that’s all OK with you, Rockinterindy2:D
Come on Rock, its TGIF, go nuts buddie.
Extremely worrying that this even went to court.
If you can be found guilty for a joke then it’s a big blow to the right to free speech. It’s a worrying precedent and who knows where it might end.
Do we want a country where you are scared to say anything in case another person might take offence?
With religious groups increasingly using the law to get their way, the future does not bode well for atheists and free thinkers.
Watched the video yesterday to see what the fuss was about.
I’ll admit, it’s a bit odd, but slightly amusing watching a dog raising its paw pretending to do a Nazi salute. The bit that probably has folk wryly pulling a face is the ‘gas the Jews’ bit. The guy made two mistakes, firstly, blurting out a line without fully realising its dangerous implications if others found it offensive (because some folk would), and secondly, (and this is the daft bit) foolishly posting it without realising that there might be a backlash …a serious backlash.
But hey …hindsight is a wonderful thing.
While some folk will find it tasteless, it’s not overtly racist when you look at it in its proper context of what the guy was trying to do. Very stupid, but it’s obvious the guy is not a white supremacist …in fact, he seems to be the furthest thing from it. He’s basically fallen in to the ‘wrong words, wrong moment’ syndrome and right now he’s paying for it. The guy is probably furiously cursing himself for foolishly saying ‘gas the Jews’ instead of saying something more like ‘Heil Hitler’. No doubt, it would probably still leave some folk tutting, but no one ever got arrested for telling a pug to raise a paw at ‘Heil Hitler’.
You just kind of hope that when it comes to the sentencing, that sanity kicks back in and he just gets handed something like a £100 fine for his troubles. Going to jail for a misworded joke would not only be extremely excessive, but it would indeed make a complete mockery of the Scottish justice system.
@JLT
I think there will be an appeal and every chance that the guilty verdict will be overturned. Gas the Jews was idiotic and no doubt offensive to many including me but was the intent to be offensive?
I haven’t saw it but am surprised it is still available, doesn’t that make the host site guilty of something if he is deemed to be guilty?
Somebody a long time ago said “the law is an ass” maybe they were right.
While some folk will find it tasteless, it’s not overtly racist when you look at it in its proper context of what the guy was trying to do
JLT, we’ve just witnessed a great deal of WTF! over the recent OBFA getting scrapped.
Can someone explain what the difference is between the OBFA scrapping outrage and the varied protests against this conviction?
Because I cant.
I was offended when Boris and Gove pledged £350 Million extra per week
For the NHS on Brexit.
I can prove it was a knowing lie, and that they gained by lying.
Can I have those 2 criminals locked up?
This is a very good report from Alex Thomson, CH4 news reporter, about the crafters of Lewis who are taking on the French energy company, EDF. It was broadcast on CH4 news tonight.
The interview with the man from Western Isles Council is a real eye-opener. I think even Alex Thomson was taken aback by what he was saying.
Worth watching
https://www.channel4.com/news/crofters-fight-edf-wind-farm-plan
Just home from a fantastic day in Edinburgh. What a great turnout at hoop and the weather behaved beautifully apart from the crazy wind.
Think I might have got the bug for protest/Indy events. Oh dear.
My grandmother used to say “the worlds aff it’s heed” – that was back in the early 90s when she was still with us. What would she think now.
Aye it was naive of Mr pug but there’s a guy in London still enjoying political prominence having put to death almost 1 million Iraqis and destroying the lives of a subsequent generation.
The worlds aff it’s heed.
Well done Highland Wifie hope you had a great day, I couldn’t make it which was disappointing but I hear it was a good turnout.
It’s the likes of yourself that could make all the difference the next time we have a chance to decide on Scotland’s future.
Will be looking out for you the next time we can both make it 🙂
Liz g @ 20:40,
Maybe I’m just feeling a bit grumpy tonight out of frustration at this damnable becalming we are still having to endure. I’m longing for a good wind in the sails again!
The arrival of the www has certainly thrown up a load of new challenges for us all, just as the printing press did a few centuries before, but free speech is a precious thing that we give up at our peril.
What bothers me though is not so much the finer points of the Law as it stands, but more what I perceive as a general societal slithering to the right, in which matters such as the wholesale gassing of “undesirables” that were once, from first-hand experience, rightly viewed with utter repugnance and horror, and other uncivil unpleasantries, now seem somehow to be becoming increasingly socially acceptable to say out loud.
Partly it’s what I reckon is simply decadence, with some attention-seekers looking for increasing ways to shock what they assume is a jaded public, but (wittingly or unwittingly) it’s also giving encouragement to right-wing movements which themselves don’t exactly have tolerant attitudes about anything.
Hence the sudden appearance on the scene of parasitical operators like Tommy Robinson.
I don’t put that kind of thing in anything like the same category as vigorously challenging your opponents (and even your friends sometimes!) over political differences, leastways if done properly.
The only person to come out of this looking good is Hitler..
@ Highland Wifie : 9.33
Glad you got home safely and that you enjoyed the event.
Was fantastic seeing all the happy smiling faces getting across the serious message.
When’s the next one!
@ Liz g – to follow on from yesterday – I asked a young Facebook user if she was aware of political messages during the snap GE campaign. She said yes, there was a constant stream of messages criticising SNP candidates, implying they were underhand. That might account for SNP voters staying at home. Demotivaed by the uneasy feeling that there was something sleazy in the candidate’s background.
Guardian article on the scale of the opertion in the US electinin 2016.
http://archive.is/eWnUm
Intensive survey research, data modelling and performance-optimising algorithms were used to target 10,000 different ads to different audiences in the months leading up to the election. The ads were viewed billions of times, according to the presentation.
Aye @Highland Wifie , saw the video, what a vicious bunch of vile separatists you all look too.
Beautiful.
@RJS
Now the biggie’s out the way, the continutity bill, we should be getting the growth commission report this week if they stick to the promise we had of after the party conferences.
UK – will you support us against Russia?
EU – no problem, as long as we can have all your fish.
UK – Fish? Only sweaties and their deluded tory MPs care about fish. Of course you can have all our fish. We were going to bargain them away anyway. Would you like all our Scottish assets in exchange for the City of London continuing to be akliwed to deal with Russian crooks?
Alkiwed? Allowed!! Apple – sort out your predictive text!
Yesindyref2 lets walk before we try to run eh? as part of Nato we dont need to worry about vikingasretaking the western Isles. Let work on getting Indy, goodness knows its going to be hard enough with the best propaganda merchants in the World against us.
@Lenny hartley
“lets walk before we try to run eh?”
Agree for all things related to Independence, that’s all they are is related to Independence and have little bearing on getting Independence itself.
Independence is ALL about giving ourselves the power to make these choices and it can’t be explained any more simply than that.
Independence allows us to do that, until then nothing else counts.
@Thepnr Look forward to making your acquaintance.
@ frogesque Soon I hope.
@Jock McDonnell Vile and beautiful indeed!
Capella The Graun really want to know if Cambridge Analytics worked on Brexit ref. They say no, this former director says they did.
Will any UK media ask them if they worked on Scots indyref1?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krY8DW3V2NU
Rock (6th July 2015 – “The member for The Vow”):
“This website is the best example of free speech in the country. Probably the only site where opinion can be freely expressed.
Unfortunately a group of sycophants and pedants, and quite possibly unionist agents, have been attempting to take it over.
They patronise other posters and think they are superior to others.
As soon as they lose the argument, they resort to the “troll” accusation.
They cannot tolerate being challenged.”
This is my first comment on this article but I see the usual suspects have been busy making snide references to me.
They can’t challenge the points I make so resort to insults to try and discredit me and other posters which have different opinions than theirs.
Readers with different opinions should not be afraid of the usual suspects and make themselves heard.
Stick to your points and challenge their pish at every opportunity, but don’t get trapped by them.
Sorry kinterindyRock2, is archive.com out of order.
Huge The Graun thing EU/UK fish, virtually nothing about Scotland as usual, except The Graun UK sea territory map, and the vast Scottish sea territory, but its all England.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/we-have-been-hijacked-fishermen-feel-used-over-brexit
O/T
I believe we gained a council seat last night from Labour in Penicuik. Can anybody put the result up? It’s not reported on BBC site and its not even reported on the SNP “mySNP”
Will any UK media ask them if they worked on Scots indyref1?
No! They want to rerun BREXIT but not Indyref1.
The parent company, SCL was a List X contractor so had access to secrets of some kind. I wonder what that might have been. Fed into a computer data about political activists could easily be used to sway voters.
https://archive.is/zP1do
Well done the Holyrood peeps, hope U managed a few swift haufs!
Dave McEwan Hill
Result and analysis here. Thought you might have checked there first, post has been up a while.
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/snp-p-p-p-pick-up-penicuik-in-crucial.html
@Dave McEwan Hill
Meaning rather than STV or BBC we should all go straight to our polling guru James Kelly at Scot Goes Pop for stuff like this.
Robert Peffers,
“Is it funny to call an Irish person Paddy or Mick”
I don’t know about that but it is damn offensive to call an Irish person “British”.
Robert Peffers (4th February 2017 – “The Sirens”):
“The Irish, whether they like it or not, live in the British Isles and are thus British. If they choose to claim not to be British then, like you, they have conceded their right to be British to the United Kingdom.”
Rock (4th February 2017 – “The Sirens”):
“Conceded”?
They escaped from being “British” after a long and bloody struggle.
Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?
Dave McEwan Hill
Hi Dave, caught some me good old Daily Record today, big headline,
“Putin must suffer..the only thing that he respects is military power.”
What’s that all about you probably shouldn’t ask. War mongering UKOK hackdom is not pretty, especially with teamGB WMD’s stashed say, 25 miles away down river from the DR ligger writing these headlines. A bit like how Windsor is to Westminster.
Maybe Daily Record hacks will get to squeeze in to that fall out shelter under Pacific Quay, next to all the beeb gimps too, Dave?
The world gets what it (preferably) votes for.
*sigh*
“Britain’ and therefore ‘British’ are geographical constructs and consequences of such a construct.
Unless the island of Ireland moves its geographical location, it is part of Britain in a geographic sense.
That is just a simple reality.
@Lenny hartley / Thepnr
Indeed, Indy first, but there’s a need for a “sexy” defence leaflet plus backing for it in at least some details as to possibilities. This in any case wouldn’t be initital iDay capability, nor even over 2 or 3 years, it would likely be a minimum of 5 years to 10 years. It would be an item for the first post-Indy defence review to consider as a part of medium to long-term defence strategy and purchase. First priority is home defence, maritime and airspace, which in basic form needs to be sorted in the say 21 months before Indy day.
Don’t forget it was the marines at the heart of retaking the Falklands though including Keith Brown MSP, and marines in themselves are a relatively sexy topic for the doubters and NOes to consider, well equipped and self-contained, not only for our defence, but as a component to supply to a NATO or UN force.
Further provisionally detailing that myself in the absence of any guide online I can find, it’s 4 F-35B on board for 2 flights of 2, maximum 2 sorties a day each, 2 for air defence and 2 for ground support with their own limited then air defence. Swapping out from land based reserve flying out ferry if in action. Probably up to 4 Merlin, 2 in AEW (Airborne Early Warning) and 2 in ASW, fairly minimal.
Ship with painted deck £400m, 8 F-35B to keep 4 operational £700m the cost is coming down to $100m each, logistics etc £100m, total cost £1.2 million. Add 4 Merlin £400m, but they can double for the frigates, and the F-35B for both air force and army use – needs a clever command, control and comms structure, well integrated. Overall though 3 separate military arms, all fighting their corner for budget rather than an army bod overall for an SDF giving the navy and air force tuppence to spend.
@Thepnr
Yep, the video is pretty much still there. Type in ‘nazi pug trial’ into your browser and click on the ‘videos’ tab. You should get a listing where one of them will work.
And yes …I think the law could be an ass on this one if they do jail him. It seems, that by saying that all mistakes; even daft ones, are punishable, then that means everyone should be punished for every mistake that they make …no matter how silly the mistake.
@heedtracker
Can someone explain what the difference is between the OBFA scrapping outrage and the varied protests against this conviction? Because I cant.
Can see what you’re saying Heedtracker. Like most folk, I didn’t agree with the scrapping of the OBFA Act since it was designed to curb sectarianism. Will be very interesting to see how the law deals with sectarianism in the future, especially after this case if the full weight of the law is used. And to that meaning, I will explain.
There is a difference here between a thug on the streets shouting sectarian abuse and a guy trying to make a funny video about the ‘perfect’ pug not being so perfect. The thug when he shouts his comments means it wholeheartedly. He is spoiling for trouble and seeks to provoke an ugly reaction. The guy in the video said something that was stupid but wasn’t looking to provoke an ugly reaction; he was just trying to make folk laugh. I agree, he’s an idiot and very foolish for posting it, but I don’t believe he’s a racist. He was just being plain ignorant without really thinking. He said something stupid without giving it real thought, and worse still …posted him saying the those stupid words. As I said in my comment, I found the idea of a paw waving pug as an allegory to Hitler a tad amusing, but in that same moment, his comment about Jews did make me wince. It was not the wisest of words.
Having seen the video fully, I understand the context of what the guy was trying to do. Slightly amusing in the act; not in the choice of words. He just wasn’t thinking it fully through.
Should he be jailed for it? It’s overkill in my book. Give him a fine and a severe word of warning in his ear that a custodial sentence awaits if he should ever be so stupid again. We’ll never hear from him again, mark my words.
But on a far more serious note which is probably on the line that you are kind of arguing over. and believe me, I think you may have been hitting the nail on the head in your argument, for the case certainly does open a major can of worms. If a person is odds-on-certain in being sent to jail for saying ‘gas the Jews’ to a pug …they’ll have to abso-f*******-lutely do the same for every Tom, Dick and Harry whenever they get the inclination to shout out ‘up to our knees in F*****s blood’ or ‘dirty Orange b******’ …to any person. If saying a racist term to dog is a possible jail sentence, then saying it to any person then, must be an absolutely guaranteed custodial sentence. Has to be!
So …a precedent could be set if this guy is jailed; thanks to this case and a home-made video.
@Capella says: 23 March, 2018 at 8:06 pm:
“@ Smallaxe @ Robert Peffers – yes I have read about Helen Duncan. I read she was really jailed because the admiralty (Winston Churchill) couldn’t be certain she hadn’t obtained military secrets. Perhaps revealing a secret about a sunken ship in Portsmouth was bit of a mistake!”
It really wasn’t strange that she, as a medium, found out about the sinking of a Portsmouth based RN ship in Portsmouth. The investigations that I posted a link to didn’t explain it well but 2+2 still = 4. This medium thing is pure hocus-pocus.
However, what did emerge from the young lady investigator’s say-so was that the Admiralty had known, but not released the information that the ship had been sunk.
They had though notified close family and the dates show they had informed, next of kin, but warned them to keep quiet about it for security reasons, until after the information was in the public domain.
What would be more natural than a member of the Portsmouth Spiritualist Church, where Helen was holding her séance in Portsmouth who had been told their loved one had gone down with his ship, and who obviously believed in such mumbo-jumbo, had given away the information to Helen by trying to contact the dead person’s spirit? so there’s the 2+2=4 link.
BTW: My maternal grandparents lived close to Helen Duncan in Edinburgh and knew her. My parents spoke about the case but I remember some things but didn’t really understand what it was all about. But what wee laddie doesn’t prick-up his ears when the grown=ups are discussing witches?
@geeo
Call my wife British and you won’t be getting any scones.
Dave
James has it up on his Scot Goes Pop blog
@Liz g says: 23 March, 2018 at 8:40 pm:
“Right to freedom of speech as a desirable thing.
Well they can only get that with Indy and we could be explaining it as another benefit of voting Yes..Aye?”
I’m with you on that one, Liz g. I’ve waited a long, long time for independence and posted more than once about jumping too quick to take action. I’ve seen far too many false starts to not be cautious when patience at the moment is allowing a slow but sure movement towards independence.
Yet I still believe that when the right time does arrive there will be an abrupt landslide. I’m quite sure I am meeting more than a few teetering on the brink of switching views and most of them are switching from unionism – not to it. I’m also more than ever convinced that the union is becoming ever more desperate.
Shit kicking off in Catalonia tonight after jailing of more Independence leaders.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/977302659265941504
Yesindyref2 no thanks i would rather have skools that dont fall down and more lovely hospitals like the new big one in Glasgow, which I stayed at for six weeks and when i was in intensive care some auld german wummin came and called it a different name So cant remember what they call it now!
We need Scottish Defence Forces not imperialistic aircraft carriers. We have fishing grounds and oil installations to defend anything else is a distraction.
Have a bit od deja vu watching Scotland V Costa Rica, i was at the infamous one in
Italy. Scotland were a million times better back in 1990 , they were robbed that day and it was roasting hot which suited them and not us but we still played them off the park.
@
JLT says: 23 March, 2018 at 9:05 pm:
” … but it would indeed make a complete mockery of the Scottish justice system.”
Far too late for that, JLT, for the whole free World is having a bloody good laugh at a certain arse sat on a certain bench somewhere in Scotland. As are most right thinking Scots – and those right thinking Scots that I know well haven’t got a racist bone in their bodies.
In fact they are quite the opposite. Every last one of them would spring to the defence of anyone actually suffering racist, or any other form, of abuse.
Having seen the video fully, I understand the context of what the guy was trying to do. Slightly amusing in the act; not in the choice of words. He just wasn’t thinking it fully through.”
He had though. He’s says he’s a comedian and he says thought about and used one of the most appalling issues he could, for comedic affect. He’d could easily have stopped before he got there but he kept going.
Look at the comedian in the video up there, “yes its offensive, if you’re a fucking nazi” and “this judge has basically said we are not allowed to make fun of nazis.”
But this is not what the judge is basically saying at all. The comedian up there says its a funny joke so that makes it ok. Where is the test for that then?
What is a joke and if its not funny, can the cops and the courts then intervene.
Adults know what they are saying, we know what we mean and we want people to understand what we mean.
But we do need rules.
Look at the rules on WoS btl commenting. Get it wrong and your comment wont be displayed btl WoS. Keep getting wrong and you will be blocked.
Its no different in Law.
We’ve probably all said terrible tasteless offensive things, for effect but not in public.
That comic in the vid up there is also a performer like pug dog owner but performers are not the Law.
geeo,
“*sigh*
“Britain’ and therefore ‘British’ are geographical constructs and consequences of such a construct.
Unless the island of Ireland moves its geographical location, it is part of Britain in a geographic sense.”
No-one in Ireland is interested in the geographical term.
Anyone insisting to them that they are “British” would be rightly considered to be an utter “numpty”.
“British” is a very political term, known and hated throughout the world for centuries.
Apart from Robert Peffers and one or two others like yourself, no Scotish independence supporter wants to be called “British” now, let alone after independence.
Any of Robert Peffers’ supporters who are happy to be called “British” now and would be happy to be called “British” after independence should go on the record and say so.
Glad to see lots of youse made it to Holyrood today. Well done.
Shame you didn’t do a mass reel-around-the-parly, that would be fun.
Tomorrow’s National front page:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZAPUzqW4AAlonf.jpg
Robert Peffers,
“As are most right thinking Scots – and those right thinking Scots that I know well haven’t got a racist bone in their bodies.”
Robert Peffers, (18th February 2017 – “Here comes a surprise”):
“The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”
The English are of course not a race, but by the tone of that comment, Robert Peffers is very anti-English.
If you want to know what is not going to be reported on the BBc or any other British media in the next week it is this.
https://archive.is/Ele05
We though don’t need the MSM for our news, this is very important as it is the start of the attempt to crush the attempt for Independence by the Catalans. We should pay attention as to what is going on here. Where is the voice of the EU or even the UN?
Was McLeish beltin out Flower of Scotland tonight?
“And we can still rise now
And be the Nation again”
Alex, wrong job mate.
Give it to a Scot who means what he says when he sings Flower of Scotland.
It just so happens that I’m writing this in Germany. Say, “Gas the Jews,” or, “Sieg Heil,” here, let alone teach an innocent dog to take your cowardly self’s place by making the Hitler salute, and you’ll go down for a loooooooong prison sentence. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that nowhere in Europe should offer a hiding place for such attitudes. After all, my father and the fathers of many of the commentators here were prepared to lay down their lives to stop them. (Sadly, Spain was excluded, and we’re seeing the legacy of that now.) Free speech doesn’t mean freedom from restrictions on what we say: that is the oft-repeated argument of, well, Nazis – and they are well aware of how to use the excuse, “Only joking!” They’re not, and none but the truly sinister ever “joke” about things like that.
In IndyRef2 the “Tartan Army” need to be far more vocal when it comes to their support for Scottish Independence.
Hardly heard them during IndyRef1
@Lenny Hartley
How much to spend on defence, and the roles of the military forces is ultimately a political decision, and that determines individual budgets for the different arms. The bare minimum is to defend Scotland at a minimum level including piracy and smuggling, and out of communication civil aircraft interception, counter-terrorism in military terms as well as police, and have availability for civil emergencies. But to different levels depending on spend
A defence budget could range from 0.5% of GDP like Ireland (for us £0.8 billion per year), to 1.2% like Germany or Denmark (us £2 billion), right up to the 2% the UK spends (us £3.2 billion). All enable different capabilties, as long as the budget is spent in a wise fashion.
Being able to have what is a SMALL carrier, would be up towards the higher end of the budget, round about 1.7% (or £2.8 billion) with a view to reaching the NATO target of 2% by 2024. No matter how important Scotland is to NATO and I think it’s vital with the GIS gap, I doubt they’d be happy if we spent less in 2021 than 1.7% of GDP or even 1.8%. So spending on such a small carrier is within that budget, though not immediately.
Currently our share of the UK budget is around £3.5 billion, so even the top end is lower.
Sigh.
Just to add to that to make the point, a defence budget of 0.5% of GDP is exceedingly unlikely to give us full membership of NATO, we’d be Partners for Peace same as Ireland (and Russia) and not entitled to Article 5 one for all and all for one defence. Meaning they could sit there and watch us invaded out of existence, unlikely though that might be.
Realistically because of our geopolitical position, we need shelter which is almost certainly the full NATO, whereas Ireland doesn’t (for historical reasons), as it allows overflight and UK naval presence as part of its defence. And yes, I do understand people’s reservations about NATO.
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 23 March, 2018 at 9:40 pm:
“What bothers me though is not so much the finer points of the Law as it stands, but more what I perceive as a general societal slithering to the right, in which matters such as the wholesale gassing of “undesirables” that were once, from first-hand experience, rightly viewed with utter repugnance and horror, and other uncivil unpleasantries, now seem somehow to be becoming increasingly socially acceptable to say out loud.”
Oh! Give yourself a good shake and then have a bit of a clear think to yourself and face up to the stone cold truth.
This old World is most certainly not sliding more to the right than it has for centuries. Take a look at the reasons that, “Little England”, is referred to as, “Perfidious Albion”, the wide World over. The genocide of the Aboriginal peoples of many lands by the British Empire and the enslaving of entire nations and races has always been a Westminster methodology – and it still is.
From the moment the Romans left the British Isles and the Germanic tribes were invited in the genocide began. From the Anglo-Norman conquest of Ireland to the present day Irish people have been dying because of that genocidal trait.
Scotland’s small population is due to it and there are more of English extraction in Wales than there are of Welsh extraction.
Australia’s aboriginal race is a minority in their own country as are the aboriginal(small a), peoples of New Zealand, Canada, the USA and many, many, more lands throughout the World that were all once coloured pink on the globe.
The troubles in Israel/Palestine are the works of Westminster as are the troubles on the continent of India. Much of the Middle East and the Korean peninsula too. Not to mention the troubles caused to China by the Opium Wars. Rubber and Tea plantations also caused on-going repercussion from the slave trade and the invention of Concentration Camps in South Africa was another gift to the World from Westminster.
Time to stand back and take a long hard look at the real history of the British Empire and as a supporter of Scottish Independence just remember this – Scotland, or as it was then, Northern Britain was the first, and hopefully it will be the last, where the Westminster genocide is still being attempted.
What else can you call the sanctioning of the poor, disabled, ill and elderly of Scotland by Westminster rule. They are literally killing off the elderly in Scotland by depravation, hunger and fuel poverty.
This is not a new thing, Robert, you just were not made aware it had always been going on – It is called propaganda and Westminster probable invented it. Even the Roman’s in South Britain re-wrote history. Westminster are past masters.
Robert J Sutherland @ 9.40
Oh Robert,believe me I share your frustration and disgust at people who are flippant about the Holocaust.
And those who wrap themselves in Freedom of speech,to enhance their own agendas…. Especially when we all know those very people would be first in the que to twist Freedom of speech into freedom to speak only like them!
We must find ways to answer them,and I would make use of their nonsense to
Firstly.
Bring young people up to speed about what the issues are,because they are now so far removed from it Robert, it barely registers in any meaning full way,unless they are deliberately informed…..
I used Harry Windsor’s Nazi ” Jolly Jape ” with my lot and their friends to enlighten them to why they too should be outraged…….
Its mibbi no a lot but it’s also not ” doing nothing “.
Secondly
To advance the concept of my ideas about what kind of Scotland I want those said kid’s to live in.
Which for me means… A written Constitution, with a very carefully and clearly worded right to freedom of speech enshrined.
I won’t let their games win,just try to turn them back against them……..
Which brings me to…..
…………………..
Capella @ 9.44
Your probably right Capella, and we canny stop them doing it.
But this time around (Indy ref 2) after all this Facebook shit….
We won’t be the ” Tin Foil Hat Brigade ” for pointing out,a lot,a very lot that this is going on.
Also advising that the Clever thing to do it to consider the source…don’t trust the net….go to the stalls, the hub’s ect from ” Both” side’s and ask.
We are strong there Cambridge Anilititica and it’s future replacement aren’t!
@ Fearchar
Onward Christian soldiers
Marching as to war
With the Star of David
Going on before
*wipes tear away*
I remember my grandad telling me about the hell at D-Day, and how it was all to help the Jews. ‘OY VEY!’ he cried when recalling it; they made him an honourary Jew because of his bravery, so he was allowed to say that in a non-ironic way. He was conscripted, of course, but that was shortly before he would anachronistically learn about the extent of deaths in the labour camps that would truly motivate him to fight. War is hell, alright. Anyway, mustn’t kvetch. Is what he used to say.
Ablooboohoo
Indy2 says “was big Alex singing tonight”?
I missed the preamble. Well was he ? If so he should be ashamed. Ach he won’t be in the job long anyway.
Yesindyref2 @ 12.19
Two thing’s.
Would you say that we need full membership right away, or could we have the Partner’s of Peace thing while we get on our feet?
Also,Would membership of NATO in any capacity, do you think, rule out Scotland having an article in it’s Constitution,similar to the one Japan had about not fighting on foreign soil,and being a defence force only?
Robert Peffers @ 00:23,
Well, you may believe we live in the best of all possible worlds, RP, but it seems to me that over the last few years there has been a very distinct worldwide political shift towards the right, and not just yer everyday conservatives but something much darker and nastier, while wearing suits instead of military uniforms this time round and pretending to be reasonable.
Just recently in Austria, for example. France had a fairly close shave. Not to forget Trump, an inherent authoritarian who would corrupt the entire American democratic system if he could get away with it.
Same as in the 1930’s, austerity gives rise to hard-pressed people demanding instant solutions, and the only operators ready and willing to promise that, and put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, are the same old usual suspects. The greater the austerity, the more ordinary people lose hope in being able to effect meaningful change. A very nasty vicious circle.
Which is about to be turned a few notches up with some other tried-and-tested 1930’s tricks: isolationism and now even an international trade war.
Here in Scotland we thankfully have a body politic that is fairly socially aware, but we mustn’t kid ourselves. We have our own home-grown deluded drawbridge-lifters, our own knuckledraggers and our own issues with disconnection too. And that’s not even reckoning with the suspicion of deliberate strategies being deployed to keep things that way. (And I don’t just mean the British Mogadon Corporation.)
If we don’t escape this UK death grip soon, I fear we will go under. Then jokes in very bad taste will be the least of our worries.
@Liz g
Yes we could start as PfP. During Indy Ref 1 there was an ex secretary-general (ignoring Robertson who counts for nothing as a politically motivated unionist rather than anything reasonable ex-NATO) saying we’d go to the back of the queue, and then the then existing one saying similar. It was so foolishly stupidly thick as two short moronic planks it put me off NATO at the time, and I’m still wary. Do the same Indy Ref 2 and they’ve lost my vote. So while a formal application is being processed for full membership, our status could be not in at all, PfP quite quickly, temporary fudged associate, or even full membership if the 28 current members agree. I’m presuming they have some cop-on in the event of a YES vote, we’d have a few friends
And they might well accept say 1.2% in year 1, building up to 2% in 2024. In fact since I think only 15 out of 28 have stated plans to get up to the 2% by 2024, they might well accept a plan to say reach 2% by 2028, bearing in mind we’re a new emerging independent country (actually re-emerging of course!). They have a problem perhaps with protests from the likes of newish member Slovenia, if they’re too accomodating with us.
Japan’s a curious case, the constitution was semi-forced on them after 2WW, and they’re now circumventing it a bit with the threat from China, for instance building carriers that aren’t carriers but are really as they’re not really allowed them, plus amending their constitition – apparently. If Scotland put such a clause in the constitution I’d be very surprised if NATO accept us as a member, totally against the co-operative defence shelter concept. That really would leave us alone in the world, and deservedly so. To be so isolationist as that we’d probably need to spend 50% of our GDP on defence – remember “neutral” Belgium. Or have something else to offer, as my previous postings (humanitarian / diplomacy / dispute resolution).
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 24 March, 2018 at 1:25 am:
“Well, you may believe we live in the best of all possible worlds, RP,”
Eh! Are you reading what I have written?
It is long past my bedtime so I will be brief as I can. I’m stating exactly the opposite to us living in the best possible World, Robert.
I’m stating that for the most part the political propaganda throughout the Western World has blinded the vast majority of people in the Western World into believing that it wasn’t the bad old World that those political propagandists had been serving up. It has always been a hell hole for the many and a near paradise for the few.
You seem to have missed it that’s all.
@Lenny Hartley
There already is a Scottish Defence Force, they’re just don’t have a name…I heard
Scotland won’t need an actual conventional army, times have changed now with our lovely pal the internet where *wars* won’t be waged using big boats and big pop guns, that’s just for show and money for rich countries who sell that stuff for the benefit of themselves to do a bit of shock and awe
When you have the technology to shut down all communications in a country or drop planes out of the sky at will people will tend to do what you want really quickly
That’s the new way to threaten countries
That’s the kind of war teeny tiny little countries can wage if they choose
I wouldn’t know anything about that sort of thing of course, I just heard it somewhere, in a pub I think
Yesindyref2 @ 2am
Thanks for that…..food for thought indeed.
While not wanting to be isolationist,which given our stragic position on the globe would be foolish anyway.
We need to guard against being caught up in the mad conflicts that go on.
As we cannot guarantee to always choose a sensible government
@Liz g
Yes, it’s a tricky one. Sweden is an example that is non-aligned, they used to have a budget of 2.6% or more of GDP but cut and cut after the (apparent) end of the cold war to a little over 1%. They have a lot of Gripens (they make them) though many leased out, but not much of a navy in terms of blue water, basically coastal. I think they’re starting to increase the budget but could be wrong.
I’d love to see Scotland in a strong enough position to be non-aligned and in that role of global peacemaker, but we’d need strong defence, and a high defence budget, and even at that it couldn’t be achieved for 10 years or more – even if at all considering our geographical position.
Wouldn’t neccessarily stop work towards it at the same time as more normal defence all the same, and such as that small carrier I want should (not could) be dual roled for disaster relief.
Dr Jim
Norway Demark Finland New Zealand all have armies. It a vote loser for independence to use the term “defence force” as it sounds like Dads Army and voters need reassurance that they are not voting for a “banana republic”.
The main thing is that we get rid of WMD.
Einstein is quoted as saying he did not know what weapons would be used in World War 3, but World War 4 would be fought with sticks and stones.
At the moment, Scotland’s defence is not about what it needs so much as what it needs rid off, and that is waving cheerio to Trident, BBC brainwash, and default association with the endless stream of idiotic warmongers from Eton.
The most important resource on any battlefield is communication, and right now Scotland is in a battle to exist, yet our Scottish Government can barely even communicate with Scotland’s electorate. The BritNat Establishment can do or say what it pleases. This theatre is where Scotland is dangerously vulnerable and urgently needs to develop a robust self defence mechanism.
Very OT but there is a series of comments about the Salisbury incident involving a chemical weapons drill carried out around Salisbury around the time the Skripals fell ill.
Yet another instance of a “drill” coinciding with a real life incident carried out in exactly the same way. Our new friends
the Defence Science and Technology Lab are involved.
Operation Toxic Dagger.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-a-categorical-liar/comment-page-6/#comment-727130
Links
https://news.gov.scot/news/european-negotiations
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/inside-politics/interview-mike-russell-uncertainty-surrounding-brexit
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/hands-off-our-parliament.html
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-leaders-show-uk-the-brexit-runway-european-council/
http://www.cer.eu/publications/archive/bulletin-article/2018/europes-cyber-problem
Morgan Stanley to hire 80 in Paris after Brexit -source
http://archive.is/rnlrq
https://skwawkbox.org/2018/03/23/high-court-judgment-reveals-opcw-will-take-own-samples-check-govts-for-authenticity/
A Russian businessman who claimed he was ‘marked for death’ by Vladimir Putin in London has fled the UK – claiming the real threat to his life comes from British secret services.
http://archive.is/J3BGL
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/caller-maroon-passport-makes-me-less-opposed-nazis/
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-trade-customs-union-theresa-may-a-managed-surrender/
Investigators raid offices of Cambridge Analytica after search warrant granted
http://archive.is/tW5sX
Brexit and the NHS
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)30625-1/fulltext
https://tvnewsroom.consilium.europa.eu/event/european-council-march-2018-day-2-19c6d/european-council-summit-highlights-1a375
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/03/23/grayling-s-fantasy-brexit-plan-would-make-trade-deals-imposs
Brexit: the worst of all possible worlds
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86809
https://www.opendemocracy.net/David-Burnside-Putin-Russia-DUP-Brexit-Donaldson-Vincent-Tchenguiz
https://www.rt.com/uk/422129-boris-skripal-novichok-court/
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/defence/news/93847/gavin-williamson-unveils-new-gunboats-protect-uk-fisheries-after-brexit#sthash.SjT5HYWG.uxfs
https://rightsinfo.org/cambridge-analytica-scandal-leave-privacy-democracy/
https://www.environews.tv/021018-eu-leaders-put-foot-climate-telling-trump-no-paris-agreement-no-trade-agreement/
Nana says:
24 March, 2018 at 8:33 am
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/inside-politics/interview-mike-russell-uncertainty-surrounding-brexit…
“Michael Russell: ‘Scottish interests must not be swept aside…..The outcome of this week’s EU talks demonstrates why the UK Government must urgently reverse its decision to shut Scotland out of the negotiations Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland’s Place in Europe Michael Russell, has said….”
Yes! Yes! Yes!
“This week has shown that Scotland is not being treated as an equal partner…..For the next phase of talks Scottish interests must not be swept aside as they have been so far. The Scottish Government must play a meaningful part in the UK’s negotiating position.”
Yes! Yes! Yes!
“..Because of the UK Government’s own hard Brexit red lines the EU have today made it absolutely clear they will only offer a basic trade deal which we know could cost each person in Scotland £1,600 a year compared with EU membership”….
Yes! Yes! YES!
“…The UK Government has so far failed to live up to its firm commitment to ensure the Scottish Government and other devolved governments oversee the negotiations and agree objectives and outcomes. We need to move beyond words to firm commitments. Scotland’s interests must be protected…”
YES! YES! YES! With a marching band of pipers!
“….We have produced detailed proposals to keep Scotland in the Single Market and they must now be taken seriously.”
Ye…. NOOOOoooooo!!!!!
FFS. Retiring to a warm and quiet place for another weep, and to light another candle of remembrance for Scottish Sovereign Independence.
Great links for Saturday Nana! It is odd watching what the EU is thinking as we don’t hear about it at all really, especially Scotland’s perspective. But we did vote NO and soft Brexit could at least save some jobs here.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-leaders-show-uk-the-brexit-runway-european-council/
The ambition on the U.K. side is to secure a bespoke Brexit deal — one that maintains as many of the benefits of U.K.-EU trade as would be feasible outside the single market and the customs union. And they seem increasingly confident that they can achieve it.
That Leonard nobody’s Labour colleagues are honest at least,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-43471848
heedtracker says:
24 March, 2018 at 1:00 pm
It is odd watching what the EU is thinking as we don’t hear about it at all really, especially Scotland’s perspective. But we did vote NO and soft Brexit could at least save some jobs here.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-leaders-show-uk-the-brexit-runway-european-council/
The ambition on the U.K. side is to secure a bespoke Brexit deal — one that maintains as many of the benefits of U.K.-EU trade….
When Scotland finally gets it act together, and finally has a Constitutional device cobbled together to actually save Scotland from Brexit, they will bust in the door of the Brexit Negotiating Chamber to find nobody there but the cleaner hoovering up, some stale champagne and party favours, and half deflated balloons.
It’s amazing the lengths people will go to to make EFTA look attractive.
@Breeks “When Scotland finally gets it act together”
My feeling is that after a bit of a shaky start over the US presidencey election where she openly backed Clinton rather than doing the statesperson thing and wishing them both good luck, Sturgeon has quite a few experts in tow including legal constitutional and international relations types, plus strategists, and has been playing the cards even before the EU Ref. Remember her law background, that has a precision about it.
It’s not just blind trust, with the benefit of hindsight in her shoes I wouldn’t do anything different – including the Indy Ref Bill last March, which indicated a firm intention to the EU. The building blocks are all in place, and the speed of the hand defeats the eye until it’s too late – but nor for us.
“Some comics say nothing is beyond comedy.
Law says no, some things are not for comedy”
Who gets to decide what is or is not funny? I do not want to be told what is or what is not funny.
I know what is offensive.