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Paying attention for thickos

Posted on August 19, 2014 by

Folks, we seriously sometimes think we’re the only people covering Scottish politics who can actually read. Here’s a page from the Scottish Sun this morning:

suntap

The paper, last seen struggling to subtract 4 from 5, makes a big and rather huffy point about this apparently being “the first time” that the First Minister has “admitted” that independence won’t be a walk in the park, “with whisky and oil on tap”.

So we have to wonder what the heck they’ve been doing for the last 14 months.

This is a great opportunity, a historic opportunity. If we vote Yes, then we’ve got a platform to mobilise our natural and human resources to build a very special society here in Scotland.

Will everything be, you know, flowing with whisky and oil and will everything be perfect? No, it won’t all be perfect [and I] daresay we’ll make a few mistakes along the way.(STV, June 2013)

Too long ago? How about a more recent example?

“We know that tackling these issues isn’t straightforward – building a better country isn’t the work of a day. Nothing is going to be handed to us on a plate. Independence isn’t about waking up one day with three taps labelled whisky, oil and water.

It’s about working hard, and taking the right decisions, so that over time we can build a fairer and more prosperous country.” (Speech in Liverpool for the Financial Times, June 2014)

Something in between, perhaps?

“Alex Salmond has said Scottish independence would not solve all the country’s problems. He told an audience at the Mitchell Library theatre in Glasgow that independence would not lead to homes being fitted with ‘three taps, for oil, whisky and water’.

He said: ‘I’ve never argued that. I suspect we’ll never have no problems, but I’m certain we can do better than we are doing now.'” (Public interview with James Naughtie in Glasgow, reported in the Herald, January 2014)

All emphases are ours. But this stuff isn’t (just) cheap, snarky point-scoring about the stupefying incompetence of other journalists. It’s about the people of Scotland being fed a completely false narrative about a dishonest, shifty First Minister who promises the Earth and refuses to acknowledge any possible problems until forced.

Yet as we’ve just seen, the exact opposite is true. The FM has never pledged that an independent Scotland would be a magical land of milk and honey. He constantly points out that oil and whisky won’t paper over every crack, that there will be bumps in the road, that Scots will have to work hard to create the country we want.

And yet the entire media still feeds the electorate a completely different, utterly untrue story, designed to erode trust in the country’s leader so that it can then trumpet any polls showing that erosion (as the Sun’s sister paper The Times does today, getting excited about Salmond’s trust rating plunging from 36% to a shocking, er, 35%).

“Was that really so difficult, First Minister?”, bleats the Sun’s editorial piously. Well, no, it probably wasn’t. It didn’t seem to be difficult when he did it in June 2013. It wasn’t difficult when he did it again in January 2014, or once more in June 2014.

So we can’t imagine that there was anything particularly tricky about repeating it yet again, in almost exactly the same words, in August 2014. The only challenging bit, we suspect, is not punching the cloth-eared clowns who didn’t hear it the first three times.

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    1. 19 08 14 10:37

      The best of both worlds: Spiceworld and Narnia | Bigmouth Strikes Again

    2. 19 08 14 11:02

      Paying attention for thickos | Scottish Independence News

    179 to “Paying attention for thickos”

    1. tartanfever says:

      This is from Andre Nicoll, who just the other week sent out this tweet, with no link to a direct quote for evidence:

      ‘The idea that we are sitting on a vast new discovery has no basis in fact and neither does the idea we have evacuated the rig. BP spokesman’

      https://twitter.com/AndrewSNicoll/status/496316819700199424

      Wonder how he feels about that one now ?

    2. tartanfever says:

      sorry Andrew, not Andre.

    3. Eoan says:

      Isn’t this Sun piece actually them positioning themselves to come out for Yes? It seems too light in tone to be read as a negative story. The tipping point has been reached imho. Things are shifting now.

    4. desimond says:

      I like the mouseover showing the word SUNTAP

      Just what Scotland needs…Winter is Coming (for some!)

    5. Bigbricks says:

      The cloth eared clowns heard it and understood it the first time he said it. It just doesn’t suit their editorial line to report it. We can all accept that newspapers push a certain political line. The problem I have is exactly as you have pointed out Stu: this leads to manipulation of stories so that, in essence, they are not only inaccurate, but the journalist writing the piece also knows it to be untrue. Hence the dropping number of newspaper sales, and increasing number of hits on this website. If I ever buy the Scotsman now, it’s specifically for Lesley Riddoch’s column, and the crossword. Anything else I find interesting enough to read would prompt an internet search to check the veracity of the story.

    6. heedtracker says:

      The entire media feeds voters a completely different, utterly untrue story, designed to erode trust in the people of Scotland in themselves, and all led/coordinated by a deeply anti democratic BBC in Scotland.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28844589

      Jump in anywhere to this BBC sez you’re all too stupid grot.

    7. Colin Cameron says:

      Why won’t the media in Scotland realise that this character assassination tactic they’ve been playing against the First Minister hasn’t worked for the last 7 years?

      I know some very hard-line anti-SNP unionists, and every one of them would concede that Salmond is an excellent politician, and he’s certainly been doing something right there last few years to stay in office with such a high approval rating.

    8. Robert Kerr says:

      Colin,

      They know that it hasn’t worked.

      They have nothing else!

    9. Karen says:

      I agree with Eoan that this reads more like a possible positioning to support yes, especially the ‘taking destiny into their own hands’ bit.

    10. desimond says:

      @Eoan

      Eoan makes a good point, its hardly as if theyre doing a Rev. and shoing a blatant lie or about face by the FM. Its just stating the obvious and taking a full page to do so seems to be protesting a little too much.

      Could we soon see:

      “After encouragment by this newspaper, we welcome the Scottish Government adopting a mature and realistic standpoint that we can now get behind….It will be the Sun wot wins it!…vote YES!”

    11. bjsalba says:

      I e-mailed into Call Kaye on radio Scotland that I had stopped buying newspapers when they stopped printing news. She said that was harsh. Possibly, but it was true, and I was not the only one.

      I don’t listen to Radio Scotland any more, as it is no longer worth listening to.

    12. YESGUY says:

      More bull shit from the Sun

      And their mates in the Record have a piece from Clegg saying YES are cranking up the “fear stories” ha .

      If it wasn’t so ludicrous it would be funny.

      This is what we are up against folks. Lies , spin, any old scare to distort the truth. The people of Scotland have eyes and see right through this and a day of reckoning is coming.

      Don’t buy papers. Hit them where it hurts most. In their pockets. And when the 19th shows a YES win watch as they try and jump into our side. Don’t be fooled , they are responsible for all the scares through lazy journo’s reading their union scripts , all to confuse the voter.

      Traitors . – To act against the country.

      They are Scotland’s shame

    13. SteveEllwood says:

      Even the BBC reporting oil field news and reporting Better Together takedowns?

      More positives in the MSM?

      For a few days I have been expecting another couple of announcements that some papers are shifting to yes. Just a wee bit further to push…

    14. Callum says:

      I think Eoan is right, this to me looks like the Sun deciding they need a good excuse to up their support for Yes and they’ve decided that’ll be Eck ‘turning the corner’ and finally ‘admitting’ things will be tough. Terrible rag of a paper but I think it may be about to join the cause…

    15. Doug McGregor says:

      And the Sun belongs to who? Gorgeous George (nice Fedora , the Man from Bradford ) was only saying last week how tucked up with him AS was , that looks like another of these can’t win situations for AS . I hope he has his strategy for this worked out. All our futures depend on it.

    16. Gary says:

      I am only now fully realising my naïveté. The ‘journalist’ are entitled to error, bad days and to being given bad information of course but the are not reporting news,nor are they giving proper opinion pieces. Distortion, lies and judicious use of copy paste to fit this weeks campaign. Less accuracy than ‘The Sport’ as nudie pics are more honourable and honest than what they soil their paper with.

    17. big jock says:

      I would guess that 80% of Wings readers don’t buy newspapers. It’s not us that need to stop buying them its Joe Public!

    18. Macart says:

      The Sun, right up there at the coal face of politics as usual then. 😀

      Who do I trust? The team who claim we’re better together, when we’re patently not or the team that says its going to take a bit of effort, ingenuity and self belief to make our own way possible? Those who think this is as good as it gets or those who think we can do better?

      I’m going with the can do attitude. 🙂

    19. Gillie says:

      M – Misleading
      S – Scotland
      M – Mandatory

    20. Andrew Morton says:

      Neeed some help here.

      I’ve got someone over on Facebook saying that Scotland couldn’t get into the EU without a central bank (note not talking about the Euro).

      Is this true and if not can someone give me some ammo?

    21. Jimbo says:

      The Sun obviously thinks its readers have no other way of accessing news than through their pages.

      Either that, or the Sun reporters have been catatonic for the past year and a half and are just hearing this themselves for the first time.

    22. Milady de Winter says:

      I don’t read any print news anymore and have never bought a Sun in my life but I have to agree with Eoan too. It’s not really having a go or full of vitriol in the way that the Moan or Exress would portray it and indeed has elements of encouragement as Karen says. Coupled with a couple of papers finally picking up on antics of BT eg In Edinburgh Evening News and others like Ee and P&J having no option but to print news about the new oil potential it does make you wonder if there is just a smidgeon of a shift in position in some areas. Perhaps just wishful thinking though.

    23. Johnny says:

      O/T (and I’m sorry for going so early in thread).

      Anas Sarwar claiming on Twitter than NHS is already ‘independent’. Sneaky attempt to suggest already beyond devolved here. They must be picked up on this where they try this nonsense.

    24. pmcrek says:

      Hi Andrew,

      Wings had a piece on this a wee while ago:

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-useful-idiot/

      Hope this helps.

    25. desimond says:

      @Andrew Morton

      Looks like wee Duggie has found you. Best avoided at all costs.

    26. Capella says:

      “Lies and mendacity” (Tennessee Williams – Cat on a Hot Tin Roof).
      Politicians and journalists generally sit around 3% in the trust tables so AS at 35% is remarkably high specially after months of blanket and unremitting character assassination the press. The Murdoch press must be about the most venal, unless Rothermere wins that prize?

    27. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The bigot Yvonne Hama has made it into the Record today.

    28. fred blogger says:

      unpicking the damage caused by decades of relentless pressure that has crushed and sucked dry income from civic society, the working classes, will be hard work.
      but it now becomes satisfying and constructive hard work.

    29. HandandShrimp says:

      I can’t say I have been much impressed with the Sun or its TV equivalent Sky News. I think the best we can hope from them is that they get distracted by something shiny. I don’t have much faith in any of the media and I won’t be returning to TV news after this referendum. Too many bridges burned.

    30. caz-m says:

      The Sun and the Daily Record are completely void of any ideas on how the Scottish Government should be run.

      Both of them only have one aim and that is to bring down the SNP Government.

      Who would they prefer to be the majority Government at Holyrood, Scottish Labour? Scottish Conservatives? or the Lib/Dems?.

      The last time Scottish Labour were in charge at Holyrood, they under spent their budget and the rest of the money went back down the road to Labour run Westminster.

      Avoid buying the Sun, the Record, Scotsman, Herald, Mail, Telegraph, Express, all Johnstone Press publications, all newspapers.

      Just STOP buying newspapers. They are in the business of selling newspapers to make a profit, you have the power to affect how that business operates.

      When they keep coming out with crap like the story the Rev is running with, it gives us the opportunity to remind the people of Scotland of the shit they print and to ask the people again to,

      STOP BUYING NEWSPAPERS!!!

    31. Johnny says:

      I only buy the Sunday Herald now, for the two Iains.

    32. Devorgilla says:

      O/T but the latest news on fracking is not good.
      Jim Ratcliffe’s private empire extends. Forget the Duke of Sutherland.

      Here we have the UK government laying claim to Scotland’s onshore hydrocarbon wealth (via HMG 1998 Petroleum Act) by awarding a fracking PEDL licence to Ineos at Grangemouth for an area that potentially covers 127 square miles of central Scotland, lying under homes and water supplies, which, if tapped, will be piped to Runcorn in Cheshire, without as much as a by-your-leave of the Scottish people.

      If that is not colonial exploitation, what is?

      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/business/ineos-buys-scottish-fracking-licence-7633994

    33. YESGUY says:

      Thought this was funny and very well put.

      Have a wee laugh with you morning coffee or tea.

      //youtu.be/BSASpl9b72s

      Makes you think and i might use this argument myself.

    34. Nigel says:

      There may be bumps in the road for an independent Scotland, but the real pot holes and cracks in the pavement are with the Union: Trident, massive debt, NHS privatisation, austerity, cuts to Scotland’s budget which will curtail even modest capital investment when Westminster wants HS2, Cross-rail extension et. al. – the list is seemingly endless. Scotland’s needs will fall into those potholes as a Tory/UKIP coalition government (or whatever ends up winning the 2015 General Election) decides to shore up London and goes for an EU exit…

      Of course, getting the press and media to state the risks of staying in the Union is like getting blood out of a stone… I will take the bumps in the road any time – leave the pot holes to Westminster.

      http://nairnyes.wordpress.com/

    35. TheGreatBaldo says:

      Actually quite a smart strategy from Eck in the last week IMO.

      Even though The Sun is being deliberately obtuse about what Eck has said previously, like it or lump it that is how folk perceive Indy as it has been sold to them by the MSM.

      Whilst not specifically acknowledging that he underperformed in the first debate he has acknowledged the reasons why he thinks people came to that conclusion and explained what he is going to do about it next time.

      He’s often accused by his opponents of being arrogant and unwilling to admit he is fallible or on rare occasions wrong.

      It’s very hard for his opponents to say that now….in fact hard for them NOT to acknowledge he has shown humility and been honest since the last debate….well they can and will obviously but it’s highly unlikely to stick this time.

      Darling meanwhile is becoming increasingly shrill and hysterical, the polls are showing it is YES not NO with the momentum….

      All set up perfectly and if Eck performs as expected next Monday and defuses the Currency fear bomb….

      Then an Eck victory may well turn into a complete rout for BT who won’t have anything left bar ‘The Positive Case for the Union’ in the remaining 3 weeks.

      Not winning the first debate may in fact turn out to be a strategic masterstroke (though it was probably by accident rather than design)

    36. Jim says:

      Regarding the BBC article, how many people make voting decisions based on absorbing the political information presented to them, many vote with their hearts not their heads so it is hardly ground breaking.
      Robert Maclennan was Caithness and Sutherland MP for years, not because of his party’s politics but because people there thought he was an approachable man who got things done in his constituency. Some old dears were delighted when receiving Christmas cards from the man and even more delighted because they were apparently signed by the man himself not by his staff on his behalf or printed.
      I know he was doing what he was supposed to, i.e, looking after his constituents interests but what I am saying is even if he was a Conservative he would have still been elected because many people don’t care about the political side of things just, “is our MP taking care of our needs”. Very insular but that is the way things are.

    37. Capella says:

      Press conference on RIC mass canvas should be on now.
      http://tinyurl.com/qfrdym2
      Anyone able to update us?

    38. Cyborg-nat says:

      Devorgilla

      Just another benefit of Independence as the taxes will be paid to The Scottish Government but it does reek of Colonialism!

    39. TheGreatBaldo says:

      HandandShrimp says:

      19 August, 2014 at 11:02 am

      I can’t say I have been much impressed with the Sun or its TV equivalent Sky News.

      To be fair, the worst and most woefully biased broadcaster by a country mile on Indyref is the ITN/ITV network news who’s output seems to be produced and edited by the Special Needs section of Better Together.

      I suspect The Sun will come out for YES once the polling figures become tighter, say what you like about Murdoch or The Sun but if their readership is pointing to YES, The Sun will follow suit as it always has.

    40. Jim says:

      @ScottieDog
      Jim Sillars explains that here:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFjul3CP0X8

    41. Billy McKinlay says:

      The problem is that when it comes to the crucial issues – currency union, EU membership – Salmond DOES insist that everything will go his way, that there won’t be any bumps in the road towards those policies, and that they will be a walk in the park.

      In his own white paper he emphatically states that Scotland “will” form a currency union, and “will” become an EU member, despite neither of those issues being a certainty.

      Obviously no one expects oil and whisky to flow from our taps, so its very easy for Salmond to suggest that they won’t – but when it comes to the crucial issues, he does insist they will go his way without a hitch.

    42. Jamie Shepherd says:

      Talking of the Sun, YouGov weights its indyref polls on newspaper readership amongs other things. The poll announced on 18th August had upweighted Sun/Star reader votes from 111 actual respondents to 172 virtual respondents. Guardian/Independent/Herald readers were downweighted from 120 to 66. Now, I’d describe myself as a Herald reader, the Sunday Herald mainly, but I never buy the damn thing these days. I wonder just how the questions are asked for this weighting, and which data they use for normalising the results?

      For the 1,000 sample size, thats potentially a 6% and 5% bias multiplied by the yes/no skew of those august journals’ respective readerships.

    43. Jim says:

      @TheGreatBaldo

      Maybe the death knell will sound for those papers in Scotland in the event of Independence and they realise that if they keep up with the lies it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

    44. Dcanmore says:

      @Billy McKinlay…

      The reason AS says that a currency union and EU membership will go ahead as he sees it is because it is the best option for all the other players too.

    45. Billy McKinlay says:

      “I suspect The Sun will come out for YES once the polling figures become tighter, say what you like about Murdoch or The Sun but if their readership is pointing to YES, The Sun will follow suit as it always has”

      Perhaps if Salmond offers to do what Murdoch asks him to, “whenever we need him to”, like he did in 2011 when the Scottish Sun came out in support of the SNP, then he’ll get Murdoch’s support again this time?

    46. Devorgilla says:

      Cybord nat – my point exactly.

      In an iScotland, how will we deal with a monopoly like Ratcliffe’s?

      We must, must, must, vote Yes. We need to get the word out on Ineos. Ratcliffe owns the former ICI chemical site 100% and a 50.1% share in the refinery. His partner there is…. PetroChina, and offshoot of the Chinese state oil monopoly.

      The NHS, Grangemouth, our oil industry…. how thick are people who still cling to NO? All of this colonialism has happened under UK.

    47. Jim says:

      Most companies are keeping schtum about Independence because they realise you do not piss off the natives because it is not good for business. Maybe the SuN is catching on, you never know.

    48. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Anas Sarwar claiming on Twitter than NHS is already ‘independent’.”

      He’s quite right. However, the budget that pays for it isn’t.

    49. Billy McKinlay says:

      “The reason AS says that a currency union and EU membership will go ahead as he sees it is because it is the best option for all the other players too”

      Indeed. But the ‘other players’ don’t think it is the best option for them do they – and it will be their decision.

      To use an analogy – let’s imagine Celtic wanted to sign a player and thought it was the ‘best option’ for both them and the player.

      Should they go ahead and state that he “will” sign for them even thought that is anything but certain – risking the disappointment of their fans if he doesn’t – or should they say “we think its the best option but its up to him, and he may not sign for us”?

    50. Minty says:

      via @newsnetScotland

      Radical Indy canvass results 43% yes. 25% no. 32% undecided

    51. Dcanmore says:

      @Jim …

      After the realisation that Scotland is an independent sovereign nation many of these newspapers will suddenly be singing from the independence hymn-sheet, in particular the The Sun and Daily Record. They will come with the line they’ve ‘always backed Scotland’ whatever the result of the referendum, in other words they will hit ‘survival mode’. The Scotsman will disappear or be bought by someone else and the English-based Scottish editions of right-wing newspapers will continue to maintain their (smallish) core readership. So really it is down to The Sun and DR to change their tune quickly after independence, but they will still stick it to AS as they gear up for the 2016 Scottish General Election.

    52. Jim says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell
      Westminster giveth, Westmister taketh away.
      Scotland depends on a budget as you say so that could and will be squeezed in the event of a no vote, apparently already cut by 5%.
      Scottish Government powers over renewable obligation were taken back under the control of Westminster, who is to say this could not happen to the devolution of health also.

    53. Iain says:

      @Billy McKinlay
      “whenever we need him to”

      Assume since you’ve gone to the trouble of putting quotes around that, it is an actual quote? Care to point us to it?

      Whatever the Sun’s indy stance, hopefully Eck won’t do a photoshoot with him holding up a copy of the rag and then have to apologise for it a couple of days later. Surely only a politcal fuckwit would get himself into that kind of mess.

    54. Jim says:

      @Dcanmore
      Lest we forget, which we wont.

    55. Jim says:

      @Billy McKinlay
      Football clubs signing players is hardly an apt analogy when we are talking about shared assets which the rUK don’t want to share. If Celtic owned half that player’s value then they would be entitled to either sign him or receive their share of his value in the event he said no, I wont sign for you!

    56. Dan Huil says:

      @ Billy McKinlay. Just because the others [Westminster in this case] say one thing doesn’t mean they actually believe it. Most people [according to latest polls] in Scotland know Westminster is bluffing when it comes to currency union. Westminster is taking a huge gamble in hoping its aggressive stance will cow enough voters in Scotland to vote No.
      Salmond must stick to his guns. People in Scotland must stick to their guns. The governor of the Bank of England and the city of London know what’s best for ruk: a currency union.

    57. Devorgilla says:

      The ‘independence’ of the Scottish NHS is not secure because devolution is not secure. Plus, TTIP currently being ushered in in EU, could force privatisation on the Scottish NHS because it is present in England, and US multinationals, or even Virgin health, could argue that UK is a unitary state, as Crawford and Boyle assume, and not a ‘union’ state or ‘composite state’ as Carty and Clyde have challenged. Therefore citing the Crawford and Boyle Opinion, which the SG has yet to challenge, they could argue that Scotland is just a region of the UK.

    58. Jim says:

      I don’t think any chancellor will want to be the one sticking his honey coated arse in the bee hive by refusing a currency union which would benefit bot countries.

    59. Chris Silver says:

      It has been entirely predictable the MSM’s coverage we are a foreign government they have treated us with the same dismissive high handedness of every other nation.

      When have you ever saw the MSM have positive about another nation that wasn’t fully complient under WM. The Scandanavians are simply ridiculed for the £8 a pint, Ireland the failed Celtic Tiger but we don’t hear abot the recovery of the Irish economy same is true for Iceland who took a dramatically different approach yet the money markets haven’t made them pariahs. Panama and Hong Kong got the AD treatment on BBC radio they have to run a surplus, what opposed to the growing debt of £1.4 trillion thats much better isin’t it ?

      The CU thing why has no one asked the economists who were on the committee to explain their rationale on why it would be best for both countries. Why do we have a media so transfixed on opposing positions rather than finding solutions. Any decent journalist who asks AD what his best scenario for an iScotland , he has dismissed the alternatives of a group of academics but offered none in reply except staying within the UK. That may not be an option if the democratic will of the people is exercised so therefore it isin’t credible to just dismiss without offering a solution.

      The whole schtick about things will change and things will get better in the union are muted by the question of you have or had the power depending on which political entity you reference yet things have deteriorated so therefore you had failed in the past and have not offered a clear vision on how you would achieve this better future.

      So the next debate will be a CU whats your plan B fest as the only way we will know the truth is to vote yes.

    60. Devorgilla says:

      There is nothing secure about devolution. We have to get that point across.

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      @big jock says: 19 August, 2014 at 10:34 am:

      “I would guess that 80% of Wings readers don’t buy newspapers. It’s not us that need to stop buying them its Joe Public!”,

      Err! Excuse me, Big jock, there’s probably more of us than there is of them, going by their falling circulation figures. That means, Big Jock, WE ARE JOE PUBLIC and if we are not Joe Public then we have lost this referendum.

    62. Jim says:

      @Devorgilla
      I think devolution, i.e, the Scottish parliament is secure but certain devolved matters are not and this is another reason why the NHS in Scotland is in danger.

    63. Billy McKinlay says:

      “we are talking about shared assets which the rUK don’t want to share”

      A currency union isn’t a ‘shared asset’.

      A system of currency is not an ‘asset’.

      rUK have no obligation to form a currency union with Scotland.

    64. Billy McKinlay says:

      “Assume since you’ve gone to the trouble of putting quotes around that, it is an actual quote? Care to point us to it?”

      Search Google for ‘Leveson Report’, ‘Salmond’ and ‘Murdoch’ and you’ll find it.

    65. Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Precisely, and they will be hit where it hurts most, declining readership and declining profits.

    66. Papadox says:

      Having lived through the turbulent industrial disputes of the 1970s and been involved in unions. I remember very well the wage negotiations and strikes. NEVER once did you go into negotiations and tell the management “we want 15% but our plan “B” is we’ll settle for 6%” and I have never herd of any union negotiator who in any wages dispute who has.

      This SLAB lot are in bed with the management and if they ever had the ability to negotiate, they have lost it big time. They have sold out to the management (Tories) and the members will just have to lump it. Never thought I’d see the day.

      Plan “b” is a non starter. That’s a management line.

    67. Billy McKinlay says:

      “hopefully Eck won’t do a photoshoot with him holding up a copy of the rag and then have to apologise for it a couple of days later. Surely only a politcal fuckwit would get himself into that kind of mess”

      Indeed. Despite his failure in the debate Salmond isn’t a political dimwit that’s true.

      He’s clever enough to try to curry favour with Murdoch in private rather that publicly – though unfortunately on occasion those private promises such as his offer to do what Murdoch wanted “whenever we need him to” come out into the open in things like the Leveson Enquiry.

    68. Jim says:

      @Billy McKinlay
      The BOE is a shared asset, the debt is a shared liability.
      They cant keep one and expect Scotland to take a share of the other.

    69. ScottieDog says:

      Jim,
      I saw jim sillars on question time. It was interesting but he is referring to quantitative easing and the creation of money by central bank.

      What the link refers to is what happens when you borrow from a private bank. The fact is that most MPs don’t realise (mine does as I emailed him but he wasn’t interested – Thomas Docherty.) that when you borrow 100k from a bank and new 100k is created. Loans create deposits, not the other way round. Private banks added £1TR of new money (debt) into the economy in just 7 years.. And created a housing bubble.

      We have the crazy situation where banks can create money from nothing and we underwrite them.

      Here’s a good explanation..
      http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/democracy/

      Sorry this is a bit o/t
      Scott

    70. OT

      Just met my first ever switherer – a taxi driver – who says he wants to vote “NO” but HAS a massive doubt.?

      I referred him to this website, with the promise that any of his doubts would be sorted by “Wingers”.

      I had my rant about the Clair Field and the economy etc.

      That Osborne was borrowing £198 billion in 2014-15 and our share of their debt was £19.8 billion.

      That the Scottish Parliament Budget for 2014-15 is only £28.6 billion.

      The taxi driver says he will access WoS after work tonight.

    71. Billy McKinlay says:

      “The governor of the Bank of England and the city of London know what’s best for ruk: a currency union”

      Strange that neither of those entities has come out to say that a currency union is best for rUK.

      Indeed the City of London – in the form of the IoD and the CBI – has emphatically stated that a currency union is not best for rUK.

    72. JET JOCKEY says:

      What you say Jim at 11.13am is very true it would not have mattered which party he belonged to. That is what is wrong today with all or most politicians they show very little interest in the individuals problems once elected, that however is changing, the internet keeps people in touch even in small rural areas, I believe there was a politician in the North East not sure if he was an MP or MSP but apparently he ignored a problem one of his constituents had, and from what I have heard that constituent made certain he was never elected again. My sister knew a MR Maclennan from that area but I think he was a vet, maybe there is a connection?.

    73. Erchie says:

      Just because George Galloway says something, does not make it true

      Or worth listening too.

      The man’s sole interest is George Galloway

    74. Billy McKinlay says:

      “The BOE is a shared asset, the debt is a shared liability”

      No. The BOE is not an asset that would be shared after independence, as legal experts agree:

      “under international law, where sharing arrangements cannot be agreed, public and government institutions cannot be divided-up like ordinary assets by separating states”

      http://thinkandtalkwithtods.com/2014/05/23/an-independent-scotland-would-not-have-an-automatic-right-to-share-the-bank-of-england-says-rod-macleod/

      https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/279454/CM8815_2901849_SA_SterlingUnion_acc.pdf

    75. fred blogger says:

      from http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/david-clegg-alex-salmond-presiding-4071386
      “ALEX Salmond once claimed the campaign for Scottish independence was “positive, uplifting, hopeful and must always stay that way”.

      Yet with a month to go until the historic vote, the First Minister is presiding over a campaign that is characterised by scaremongering and negativity.

      In recent days Yes Scotland have warned that a No vote will mean the collapse of the NHS, the end of free education, and years of angry politicians from the rest of the UK “taking revenge” on Scotland for daring to hold a referendum.

      Evidence for any of these claims is difficult to come by.”

      REALLY, then why are many hundreds of people, south of the border, @ this very moment marching in jarrow style 300miles to WM, in an attempt save the NHS, that has been put under threat by the health and social care act?

      then there is the well publicized work of leading academic’s, who thoroughly explain the true impact of the health and social care act and what it’s for.

      then devolved powers (energy) can be stripped away from holyrood as has recently happened, and that holyrood is a temporary institution and be closed down tomorrow.

      see wings “50 answers for the No campaign”, jan 13 2014,

      to save the nhs and be on the road to achieving many other amazing things all we have to do is put a tick in the yes box.

      warning of real danger is NEVER scaremongering and is always the right thing to do!

    76. Billy McKinlay says:

      “While interim arrangements for sharing some public and government institutions would be a matter of necessity or simply non-contentious for an independent Scotland and rUK, in the absence of an agreement to share institutions located outside of Scotland, such as the Bank of England, Scotland would not have an automatic right to a share of those institutions.”

      http://thinkandtalkwithtods.com/2014/05/23/an-independent-scotland-would-not-have-an-automatic-right-to-share-the-bank-of-england-says-rod-macleod/

    77. Nemo says:

      Now now folks, don’t feed the troll!

    78. Jim says:

      @Billy McKinlay
      We can all bandy experts back and forth but the fact remains that 5 Billion of annual debt repayments will be lost to the rUK.

    79. Johnny says:

      RevStu @ 11:32am

      Yes, I remembered sharply that there are three different acts, so it is independent in name (as are Eng/Wales and NI) but I suppose I meant that (as they are fond of telling us on other issues) it isn’t really all that ‘independent’ if London continues to hold the purse strings.

    80. Dcanmore says:

      @Fred blogger

      The DR thinks it is playing to an audience that knows nothing apart from what is written in their hallowed columns. In other words they think the Scottish electorate is stupid. They are also losing 20,000 sales each year from their print edition.

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      Andrew Morton says: 19 August, 2014 at 10:43 am:

      “I’ve got someone over on Facebook saying that Scotland couldn’t get into the EU without a central bank (note not talking about the Euro).”

      It’s not true. In the first place we Scots joined the EU on the day the EU first began, (it was a new treaty and not what which went before). Thus Scots are EU citizens from day one and there are no EU rules, laws or mechanisms to exclude any EU citizens. Furthermore, Scotland can never become a new country as Scotland was a recognized country long before the Angles gave their name to England.

      The United Kingdom is exactly what it says it is on the tin – A United Kingdom, that is it is a union of two KINGDOMS. So both former partners will be required to renegotiate their terms while remaining EU members.

      Why would the EU, a body formed to unite as many like minded European states together for their mutual benefits, exclude one of two states that have split up in favour of the other? All it needs do is say, “You both need to regegotiate your terms”, and they retain both as members.

    82. Brian Powell says:

      Watching interview of the FM at Arbroath Abbey by Bernard Ponsonby. Bernard says he wouldn’t go over the currency question again, then spends next 5 minutes going over the currency question.

      Also saw one headline where the FM was ‘truing to emulate the success of the Declaration of Arbroath’, but that he didn’t have the same support as Robert the Bruce.

      Of course the whole point about the Declaration was that Robert the Bruce didn’t have support and was trying to elicit support from the Pope for his claim and the Independence of Scotland.

    83. Only a fortnight ago, that rabid tory MP John Redwood – on Pienaar`s Politics prog promised :- If Scotland votes “NO”, we (tories) will take back those powers that stop New Nuclear and prohibits Trident wandering across Scotland.

      Holyrood`s PLANNING PERMISSION POWERS – HEAD BACK SOUTH.!!

      Nine nuclear sub reactors at Rosyth becomes 27 – if we vote “NO”.!!
      Like that movie with Olivier, when he wields a dentist drill versus Dustin Hoffman – “Is it Safe”.?
      FFS.

    84. Dan Huil says:

      @ Billy. I forgot to mention another Westminster gamble: its refusal to enter into pre-referendum negotiations. Again in an attempt to scare the people of Scotland into voting No. They really are the most reckless bunch. Yet again they will have a hell of a lot of explaining to do to the English public when their gamble is seen to be a bluff. Thankfully the governor of the Bank of England has enough sense to be negotiating with Holyrood.
      I should have made myself clearer in this last point: The IoD and CBI as we know are just as political in outlook as Westminster politicians. It is the markets, the people who really are easily scared when their is uncertainty about future dividends, who will first see the beads of sweat on Westminster brows and demand that currency union be on the negotiating table.
      As I said: we must stick to our guns.

    85. fred blogger says:

      ps slight typo in my above post should read “all we have to do is to put a cross in the yes box”.
      and i’m excited coz i have just received my polling card, i’m off to the shops to get a frame for it.

    86. Jack Murphy says:

      TODAY. 25 pence OFF coupon when you buy any newspaper–Tesco.
      MSM Scotland in panic mode.

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @Devorgilla says: 19 August, 2014 at 11:06 am:

      “Here we have the UK government laying claim to Scotland’s onshore hydrocarbon wealth (via HMG 1998 Petroleum Act) by awarding a fracking PEDL licence to Ineos at Grangemouth for an area that potentially covers 127 square miles of central Scotland, lying under homes and water supplies, which, if tapped, will be piped to Runcorn in Cheshire, without as much as a by-your-leave of the Scottish people.”

      The licence, though, will remain useless as Scotland retains the planning functions. If they submit plans the SG can call them in from any local council attempting to give planning permissions and scrap the plans.

    88. Gillie says:

      Not the only ones to forget what has been said in the past, only to repeat it as if it was new.

      http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/why-im-saying-no-thanks-marjorie-mccreadie

      http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/say-no-thanks-to-putting-our-economic-future-at-risk

      Better Together, more repeats than Dave.

    89. Grouse Beater says:

      Has ‘Duggie’ reincarnated himself as ‘Billy McKinley’ – half Orange, half Irish?

      One of the construction crew had a copy of today’s Sun – I saw its editorial trying to tell readers it found Salmond out on a deception. What a dishonest piece of crap that paper is.

    90. Gillie says:

      The problem for the media in Scotland is that a substantial proportion of the buying public, those in the main who support independence, will be have been turned off by the partisan nature of the reporting of the referendum.

      That represents lost readers, viewers, listeners and importantly revenue. How on earth can the MSM attract these people back?

    91. Jim says:

      @Dcanmore
      What’s that about £1.2M a year? And they wonder why with their biased views.

    92. TheItalianJob says:

      @caz-m says

      No worries friend. Haven’t bought a newspaper for at least 6-7 years and don’t intend to. Even some of the ones (like teh Tele etc) we get free I’ve banned from even being brought into my house.

    93. Flower of Scotland says:

      Troll alert! Don’t feed them!!

    94. gerry parker says:

      Delivered 200 or so Labour for Independence leaflets in the Whifflet Area of the Iron Burgh this morning.
      Saw 2 new Yes posters on windows.

      looking good.

    95. Liquid Lenny says:

      O/T RIC Mass Canvas 18 thousand responses
      43% Yes
      25% No
      31% Don’t Know

      With Don’t Knows excluded
      63.4 % Yes
      36.6% No

    96. Jim says:

      1 in 5 jobs in Scotland are with companies owned in the rest of the UK. The point is?
      There are many companies operating in Scotland that are not Scottish owned and they will still operate in an Independent Scotland, these muppets must think we zip up the back or something.

    97. Billy McKinlay says:

      “We can all bandy experts back and forth but the fact remains that 5 Billion of annual debt repayments will be lost to the rUK”

      Don’t be silly.

      Despite his scaremongering threats, even Salmond wouldn’t be stupid enough to refuse Scotland’s share of the debt if rUK decides not to form a currency union.

      He knows that if he did, then:

      1. Scotland’s EU membership application would be rejected by rUK and most of the other EU members

      2. No international bank, or democratic state, would want to lend to Scotland, or form any treaties or agreements with it

      3. Scotland would start its new life as an independent state with crippling interest rates and forced to rely on punitive loans from the likes of China

    98. Flower of Scotland says:

      I havnt bought a newspaper for about two years! Better off with Wings, Newsnet, Bella, wee ginger dug etc.

      BBBC now talking about a programme about the referendum HEART or HEAD! J Beattie , Unionist, never reads out my texts! What a load of rubbish I’m hearing! David Torrance left to side with Independence!!!! Turned off!

    99. Erchie says:

      @Robert Peffers – Wings himself dealt with that one
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-useful-idiot/

    100. Jim says:

      Even a Tesco in a city as small as Inverness and there are a few, can turn well over 1M in profit a week, would they give that up, would they hell.

    101. Jimmy the Pict says:

      @Robert Peffers

      If Westminster wanted to it could amend the Scotland ACT to exclude unconventional gas extraction from local planning on the grounds of national energy security and there would be nothing we could do. They could remove the need for legislative consent as well. In fact as Holyrood exists by Westminsters grace they could legislate anything they wished.

    102. Billy McKinlay says:

      “The United Kingdom is exactly what it says it is on the tin – A United Kingdom, that is it is a union of two KINGDOMS”

      You’re confused.

      Please try to learn the difference between the united kingdom of Scotland and England (that would be dissolved by a yes vote), and the sovereign state UK of GB and NI that is recognised as such under international law and by the entire world and that would remain exactly as it is now – including its current memberships – just without Scotland.

    103. Billy McKinlay says:

      “both former partners will be required to renegotiate their terms while remaining EU members”

      Wrong. rUK will be the continuing state and will retain its current memberships.

      Scotland will need to apply to become an EU member – it obviously cannot ‘remain’ an EU member because it isn’t a member now.

    104. Liquid Lenny says:

      Jim

      Even Brodick with population of just over 1000 is getting a Tesco’s in the winter the Islands population is just around 5000.

      Mind you I would to see all the Multinationals bugger off
      and let small Scottish Businesses flourish 🙂

    105. Gillie says:

      MSM picks up Yvonne Hama story.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28853268

      Since the BBC actually broadcast the campaign video yesterday evening surely it hasn’t taken this long to notice.

    106. Hewitt83 says:

      Billy “Salmond’s scaremongering”

      Then he goes off on a typical Unionist scaremongering rant of his own.

      What a tizz the Unionists are in at the moment. Great to see.

    107. Billy McKinlay says:

      “they will have a hell of a lot of explaining to do to the English public when their gamble is seen to be a bluff”

      But that’s exactly one of the main reasons why their stance isn’t a bluff – because the English public are opposed to a currency union, so if any party does a u-turn and decides to negotiate on one it would be slaughtered at the ballot box in 2015.

      “Thankfully the governor of the Bank of England has enough sense to be negotiating with Holyrood”

      The FORMER governor of the BoE apparently held ‘technical discussions.

      As I’m sure you’re aware, the governor has no authority to negotiate on anything to do with currency, with Holyrood or any other political entity.

      The decision will be made by Westminster alone.

    108. boris says:

      All new GP, Alternative Providers of Medical Services (APMS) contracts To be offered exclusively to Private Healthcare providers

      NHS Contract Terminology

      1. Personal Medical Services contracts (PMS)
      Contracts are agreed between NHS England and GP practices, together with funding arrangements. In England, approximately 40 per cent of GP practices are on PMS contracts.

      2. General Medical Services (GMS)
      practice-based contract rewards practices for essential services, as well as additional services that practices can choose to offer.

      3. Alternative Providers of Medical Services (APMS)
      Under APMS, PCTs are able to contract for primary medical services with commercial providers, voluntary sector providers, mutual sector providers, social enterprises, public service bodies, GMS and PMS practices (through a separate APMS contract) and NHS Trusts and NHS Foundation Trusts.

      Contracting Policy
      Exclusive All new GP contracts will be opened up to bids from the private sector by NHS England in a move that GP leaders have warn marks the ‘death-knell’ of traditional life-long general practice. As a tide of practices face closure, because of competition law they will replaced with time-limited, (usually 5 year) APMS contracts instead. The move has taken GP leaders by surprise, with the GPC seeking urgent legal advice about the move. Some have warned it will lead to the privatisation of the NHS with surgeries replaced with ‘short-term, profit making ventures’.

      http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-workforce/primary-care-contacts/general-medical-services
      http://www.nhshistory.net/personal_medical_services.htm
      http://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/apms-standard-contract-june14.pdf
      http://alternativeprimarycare.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/alternative-providers-of-medical-services-apms/
      http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/stop-practice-closures/revealed-all-new-gp-contracts-will-be-thrown-open-to-private-providers/20007596.article
      http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/public-sector/3502156/nhs-england-plans-fines-for-gps-not-using-new-e-referral-system/

      The foregoing changes are now well under way in England. High street pharmacies will be increasingly offering a range of services previously the remit of GP’s. Computerised private patient records will be made available to contractors. GP service provision will be dismantled over a period of 5-10 years in favour of large Private Healthcare providers. The Scottish government recently restated that healthcare provision in Scotland will not be subject to such abuse, which favours profiteering by large private healthcare contractors. But in the event of a, “No” vote the English NHS model in all respects will be imposed, (by stealth) on Scotland. Scot’s who wish to retain the existing Scottish NHS should vote, “Yes” in the referendum.

    109. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Don’t feed the Troll.

    110. Billy McKinlay says:

      “Then he goes off on a typical Unionist scaremongering rant of his own.”

      Try to learn the difference between ‘scaremongering’ and reality.

      Scaremongering is Salmond’s threat to reject Scotland’s share of the debt.

      Reality is the fact that rUK would reject Scotland’s EU membership application if Salmond does so.

      Or perhaps you think rUK will happily allow Scotland to waltz in to EU membership despite Salmond refusing to take Scotland’s share of the debt?

    111. Cyborg-nat says:

      Billy, nuff said as we have heard it all before. Away and polish your flute.

    112. Hewitt83 says:

      Ah yes, I forgot the UK runs the EU.

    113. Jim says:

      @Liquid Lenny
      Which goes to prove they will go where the money is so no big businesses are going to leave Scotland when there is money to be made.
      Small businesses are still operating in towns and cities with a Tesco, newsagent/grocers, butchers, bakers, opticians, etc, etc.
      Companies like Tesco do have an effect but how detrimental is a bone of contention for many.

    114. Nana Smith says:

      BT/No thanks or whatever will stoop to any level with their lies and disgusting smears….

      http://www.snp-falkirk.org/new/2014/06/05/better-together-told-to-clean-up-their-act-after-attempted-smear-hits-the-buffers/

    115. Jim says:

      “Reality is the fact that rUK would reject Scotland’s EU membership application if Salmond does so”.
      ____________________
      This would be the same UK who are talking about having an in out referendum on EU membership would it?

    116. Robert Peffers says:

      @Billy McKinlay says: 19 August, 2014 at 11:23 am:

      “The problem is that when it comes to the crucial issues – currency union, EU membership – Salmond DOES insist that everything will go his way, that there won’t be any bumps in the road towards those policies, and that they will be a walk in the park.”

      Aye! Billy McKinlay, and on those particular issues Salmond is 100% correct and I’ll tell you why. Let’s consider the Currency issue first. The BofE is a totally public owned but independent of Government company. It was nationalised in 1946 and made independent by Gordon Brown.
      However, in the bipartite Treaty of Union it was agreed that the Banks in Scotland could legally print their own banknotes but on condition they deposited Sterling to the value of the notes in the Bank of England. So for every Scottish note in circulation there is now the equivalent deposited in an interest paying account in the BofE.

      If, upon independence, the then Kingdom of England Parliament refuses a Currency Union and the Kingdom of Scotland Government then continue to use their own currency, (as agreed in the Treaty of Union), The Pound Sterling. Then by holding the total value of the Scottish banks currency in their vaults the Bank of England, (which Scotland owns a share of), have become, by default, the lenders of last resort. Go read a BofE bank, (promissory), note. They promise to pay the bearer on demand at the banks headquarters the sum of its face value. Not only that but Scotland could withdraw their money and also sell their share of the BofE assets on the open market. Where then the BofE? Could they suffer that loss?

      As to the EU. The EEC became the EU and thus the United Kingdom are founder members of the EU having been members since day one. Now the UK is exactly that – A bipartite union of KINGDOMS, – it is not a country. A kingdom is a Royal Realm and the member state is the Parliament of the United Kingdom, not Her Majesty. On independence that Union ends and with it the Westminster parliament in it’s role as the United Kingdom Parliament. It is not Scotland’s business to interfere if The Country of England continues to use Westminster as England’s parliament as it does it present.

      Now as all former UK citizens have also been EU citizens and EU citizens cannot be thrown out, why would an EU dedicated to uniting European states choose to keep one part of a split-up state and reject the other? All it needs do is tell both the must renegotiate their terms and thus the EU keeps both former partners.

    117. Liquid Lenny says:

      breakdown of Labour Strongholds

      Some detail on breakdown of Labour Strongholds:- Don’t Knows Excluded

      Easterhouse 76% Yes

      Clydebank 60% Yes

      Bonnyrigg 60% Yes

      Greenock 65.3% Yes

      Dundee 72% Yes

      Kirkcaldy 69.9% Yes

      Hamilton 73% Yes

      Ma Hoose 100% Yes

    118. Billy McKinlay says:

      Out of interest, is anyone who dares to question any aspect of the SNP’s independence claims automatically a ‘troll’ on here?

      I was under the impression that this site “actively welcomes” contributions from “all sides of the debate”?

      Is it just a mutual circle jerk where everyone sits round praising the SNP and the site and fawning over the creator?

    119. Jim says:

      Scotland can use the pound, currency union or not. The rUK can keep the debt. No share of assets, no share of debt.

    120. Black Douglas says:

      Leave the 👿 be it’s the same one as last week, what was it called Mckenzie or something. Anyways it has exactly the same stench!

    121. Billy McKinlay says:

      “Ah yes, I forgot the UK runs the EU”

      Perhaps you don’t understand the meaning of the word ‘unanimous’?

      unanimous defition: “held or carried by everyone involved”

      e.g. “this requires the unanimous approval of all member states”.

      Scotland’s EU membership application will require the unanimous approval of all member states, including rUK.

      Do you think rUK will agree to Scotland’s application if Salmond refuses Scotland’s share of the debt?

      It’s a rhetorical question of course.

    122. bookie from hell says:

      heard a conversation last night,pub,north edinburgh

      two women,one said “are you voting?

      other one said”,they are all lying bastards its also scotlands pound ,im voting yes

      cheered me up.people are seeing thru fear,lies

    123. It is Tragic when FibDem leaders like Danny Alexander spout about the future of Scotland when his party has a future that will last only until May 2015 – 8 x months after the IndyRef.

      Few Scots are listening to,or will ever believe “Yesterday`s Men”, yesterday`s abject Failures – Krash Gordon or Flipper Darkling – who we can be SURE will never be allowed to hold High Office in London or Embra.

      The Muppets had a brain working for them in JIM HENSON – but these so-called treacherous Scottish Muppets refuse to peer beyond Sept 18th – when their future will be behind them.

      Do “THEY” Think we will ever forgive or forget – TREACHERY.

      We will not forget SLAB or Clegg`s Scots cohorts.(5 X MSP`s only).

    124. Billy McKinlay says:

      “Scotland can use the pound, currency union or not. The rUK can keep the debt. No share of assets, no share of debt”

      Correct and correct.

      However, as a currency union is not an ‘asset’, Scotland could not refuse it share of the debt if rUK refused to form a currency union.

      Or rather, it could, but there would be seriously damaging consequences that even Salmond wouldn’t be stupid enough to allow.

    125. caz-m says:

      O/T

      Cost of setting up an Independent Scotland, £200 Million approx.

      Cost in compensation payment for a f*cked up UK Border Agency programme, £224 Million.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28840966

      What’s Danny Alexander got to say about this then.

    126. Billy McKinlay says:

      “the UK is exactly that – A bipartite union of KINGDOMS, – it is not a country”

      Get back to me when you learn the difference between the united kingdom of Scotland and England, and the sovereign state UK of GB and NI, established as such under international law.

    127. Auld Rock says:

      Probably seen their sales figures dropping like ‘dead donkey’. Anyway what’s the difference between The Sun or Mirror or Record and the Dandy and Beano? Ans: about 65p, LOL.

      Auld Rock

    128. Robert Peffers says:

      @Billy McKinlay says: 19 August, 2014 at 11:32 am:

      “To use an analogy – let’s imagine Celtic wanted to sign a player and thought it was the ‘best option’ for both them and the player.”

      Bad analogy, Billy.

      Fact is the Bettier Together lot know full well that if the Kingdom of England parliament, post independence, do not agree a currency union then a Scottish Government can kill their economy stone dead.

      The Scottish exports will vanish from the Sterling economy.
      The BofE will lose the current value of Scottish currency if the Scots withdraw the deposits in the BofE to that value and the Scots claim their share of the BofE assets that belong to them.

      Remember that it was NOT the BofE that bailed out the banks it was the Treasury and foreign countries where the bailed banks did business. The BTs are telling you porkies. More fool you if you believe them.

    129. kininvie says:

      @Billy McKinlay

      On the assumption you are not trolling: 🙂

      There is a whole raft of ifs, buts, and maybes surrounding the post-independence negotiations.

      There are two scenarios: either Scotland & the UK co-operate in reaching a solution, or they don’t. The rest of the world (and especially the EU and NATO) will want negotiations to reach a positive conclusion as quickly as possible, so that certainty can replace uncertainty.

      The Scottish government has already indicated its willingness to co-operate. Nevertheless, it has cards in its hand should the rUK choose otherwise, the debt among them.

      The question for you is why on Earth the rUK would wish to play hardball rather than reach an amicable solution? It would damage its reputation, piss off the international community, poison its relations with its nearest neighbour and would probably lead to the markets raising borrowing costs.

      So what is there to be gained other than a bit of macho posturing to keep the DM happy?

      Looking forward to your answer

    130. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      What serious power the press had to persuade has gone and it vanished long before now. They simply aren’t trusted. It really doesn’t matter if any or some papers come out for Yes. We saw wall to wall press and media spin of the first debate proclaiming a massive victory for Darling and No which has been proved to be complete and utter fucking nonsense. That debate has only drastically worsened the No campaign’s situation as trust in westminster politicians again moves to the forefront of the referendum.

      Press circulations are still dropping like a stone while there are even more trails and charges to come to keep swelling the ranks of those editors and tabloid hacks now in prison.

    131. Billy McKinlay says:

      “then a Scottish Government can kill their economy stone dead”

      Mmmmm yes, I’m sure a loss of about 10% would ‘kill’ rUK’s economy.

      You also seem to be ignorant of the obvious fact that Scotland relies far more on UK trade than rUK would on Scottish trade, so if rUK’s economy did ‘die’ then Scotland’s would die too.

    132. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Black Douglas says:
      Leave the 👿 be it’s the same one as last week, what was it called Mckenzie or something. Anyways it has exactly the same stench!

      Jellymould turn-of-phrase.

    133. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Or perhaps you think rUK will happily allow Scotland to waltz in to EU membership despite Salmond refusing to take Scotland’s share of the debt?”

      He won’t refuse, because the UK won’t refuse a currency union. Next?

    134. crisiscult says:

      “Now as all former UK citizens have also been EU citizens and EU citizens cannot be thrown out, why would an EU dedicated to uniting European states choose to keep one part of a split-up state and reject the other? All it needs do is tell both the must renegotiate their terms and thus the EU keeps both former partners”

      I think this EU fear is one supporters of Yes should be least worried about. There are options for continuing as a member if no member state objects and insists that Scotland re-apply (covered in various media and academic papers re Article 48 v 49 of TEU). As also discussed ad nauseum, there is no article requiring anything in particular in a situation such as Scotland’s. So, if there is a political will, then Scotland will either be chucked out or kept in. So, what will the political will be? I haven’t heard any credible or convincing arguments on the political will to remove Scotland. The only arguments I’ve heard are:

      a) If Scotland ‘defaults’ on its debts, rUK will want them kicked out
      b) Spain (and a few others) are afraid of ‘separatist’ movements and will want to send a signal to those movements that the consequences will be very bad.

      Considering the consequences for rUK on a soured relationship, and worse, an economic war similar to that of the late 17th century but in the modern world, how likely is it that either side will want that?

    135. Hewitt83 says:

      Thank you Rev, saved me the time.

    136. Giving Goose says:

      Regarding rUK Trade, considering that US banks are making contingencies to move operations out of London when the rUK leaves the EU, then Scotland stands to gain. I’m sure the Independent Scotland option has been discussed around the board tables.

      http://tinyurl.com/mgmwf7o

    137. Robert Louis says:

      Bookie from hell,

      Aye I have heard similar on two occasions – including from somebody I had wrongly assumed to be a no voter. Their previous comments amounted to many questions related to scare stories, leading me to think they were going to vote NO. Imagine my surprise when they said just last week, that no matter what people say, you can’t trust any politicians, but they’ll definitely be voting YES regardless.

      In my experience, which of course is not a valid sample and merely anecdotal, most folks simply say, the pounds our already, so they can’t stop us keeping it. They regard all the stuff about currency as nonsense – as evidenced by the latest polls showing increased YES support.

      Sometime it is easy to forget just how savvy many Scots are.

      Slightly O/T,

      It occurred to me the other day, that the media (what a surprise) is really missing the important story of the referendum, and that is that the NO campaign have pretty much done nothing but lose support. This despite being funded to the hilt by rich Tory Donors, having three major UK wide political parties, the entire British broadcast media and almost every single newspaper on their side, together with the entire civil service.

      That really is a story, because despite ALL the massive resources, they just keep losing support, with each passing day. Hard to believe that nobody else seems to have noticed.

    138. thedogphilosopher says:

      Nowadays I only look at the papers when I’m in a coffee shop, usually a few lying around (joke?). Still important to “keep your enemies close”, me thinks, but without having to subsidise them. I reckon most blokes (and blokesses) read the Red Tops for the footie, not for the shallow, sycophantic political guff they spout.

      As for @ Billy the Troll … Why so much faith in lawyers and their dubious ‘interpretation’ of the law? When Scotland achieves independence the boot will very swiftly move to the other foot when it comes to negotiations such is the fragility of the rUK economy … and rather than treating Scotland as some poor third-world cousin, the English political class will be shaken from its arrogant stance (by the financial markets) into demanding a currency union.

    139. Robert Peffers says:

      @Billy McKinlay says: 19 August, 2014 at 11:52 am:

      “A currency union isn’t a ‘shared asset’.”

      It is when both sides in the deal are owners of said currency.

      A system of currency is not an ‘asset’.
      Care to explain why not, Billy?

      rUK have no obligation to form a currency union with Scotland.

      What rUK is that, Billy?
      Please either disprove the following facts or explain why they do not apply?

      A – The Treaty of Union is a bipartite treaty.
      B – The Treaty of Union formed a united Royal Realm. Hence its title, “United KINGDOM”.
      C – The Treaty of Union then instigated a NEW parliament to run the United Kingdom.
      D – The Treaty of Union agreed a joint Currency.
      E – The Kingdom of England Annexed Wales in 1284.
      F – The Kingdom of England Annexed Ireland in 1542.
      G – The Kingdom of England and Kingdom of Scotland were the only two Kingdoms in Britain in 1706/7.
      H – When a bipartite union ends the Status Quo Ante is both return to pre-union status.

    140. Robert Louis says:

      thedogphilosopher,

      Exactly. Unless George Osborne and David Cameron wish to be hung from from a lampost in the city of London by the banking fraternity, they will of course immediately open discussions regarding a currency union, upon a YES vote – if not before (which is likely, due to market jitters).

      The currency bullshit from the anti independence campaign is having no effect I can see, other than to galvanise Scots to vote YES. I do hope they keep it going.

    141. Chic McGregor says:

      It was the same with the ‘Salmond lied about EU legal advice’ mythos.

      It simply is not true.

      The legal advice he admitted to was in relation to that sought on phrases to be published in Scottish Government documents.

      Which was sought, under obligation, and indeed found to be acceptable. Later, after the media distortions, in a fairly unprecedented event, the legal advisor came forward to confirm this (buried PDQ).

      All to no avail, the media monster persisted in building the myth that Salmond lied about seeking direct legal advice on EU membership.

      Quite a different thing.

      That kind of specific advice is:

      1. Subject to ministerial protocol where a minister is not allowed to say what it was or even if it existed.

      2. Not actually possible based on EU regulations, because regulations covering Scotland’s specific case do not exist.

      3. Only possible if the EU pronounced a judgement on the matter.

      4. Finally, an EU pronouncement is only possible if the UK Government asked for it, which they refused to do.

      Yet, shamefully, the ethically bereft Unionist media (aka ‘the Scottish Media’) managed to convince most folk that he lied.

    142. Giving Goose says:

      WantonWampum.

      I’m assuming you made a Freudian slip with the use of the word “peer”

      It should never be understated that a Peerage is one of the most sought after awards for Unionist MPs. When you consider that Alexander (both types), along with every other Unionist MP, cannot articulate an honest economic or political case that illustrates a benefit for Scotland remaining in the Union, the obvious conclusion is that Unionist MPs are only in it for the money and the ermine.

    143. desimond says:

      When we talk of divorce, you can

      a: Accept it and decide on custody on the kids like adults
      b: Scream, shout, question, moan, act like petulant weans.

      What you gonna be, an adult or a petulant wean?

    144. Edward says:

      Billy McKinlay
      You nearly understand it
      So let me explain to you what its all about
      The United Kingdom of Great Britain was created by the political union of the two kingdoms of Scotland and England
      I think you will agree on that.

      ‘Great Britain’ according to the terms of the treaty (1706) is meaning Scotland and England
      I think you will agree on that, if you don’t suggest reading the treaty

      In 1801, The Kingdom of Ireland was added to the political union, but was not absorbed, it became a province of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is why it became know as ‘the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland’

      Moving on, to the partition of Ireland into two provinces, North and South. The Southern province became the Irish Free State, then the Irish Republic. The Northern province became Ulster or Northern Ireland, which is why on a UK passport , we have ‘the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

      Northern Ireland is definitely not a kingdom but is still a province of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, in which Great Britain is taken as Scotland and England

      Ending the union will actually end the political union that is the United Kingdom of Great Britain, there is no doubt about it, unless you are a unionist who wants to grasp at straws.

      The EU, like with all international bodies, will treat both England and Scotland as successor states. This will need ratification, but is not really an unsurmountable problem

      What England with Northern Ireland and Wales wants to call themselves will be down to them. Hopefully they will not embarrass themselves by wanting to be called the United Kingdom. Also they will need to invent a new flag, for the same reasons

    145. Joe Swan says:

      I think I’ve just got a Def No not to vote.

      Not by banging on about all the things we see as reasons to vote Yes, but just pointing at the computer screen and saying “Look, look, they are trying to steal our oil.”

      He may consider other reasons to vote Yes later on but has now moved from a Def No. to not voting at all.

      He is a Daily Record reading Rangers supporter.

    146. Caroline Corfield says:

      In response to this:
      Billy McKinlay says:
      19 August, 2014 at 1:08 pm
      Out of interest, is anyone who dares to question any aspect of the SNP’s independence claims automatically a ‘troll’ on here?

      I was under the impression that this site “actively welcomes” contributions from “all sides of the debate”?

      Is it just a mutual circle jerk where everyone sits round praising the SNP and the site and fawning over the creator?

      ———————————-
      I think you’ll find if you bother to read the comments posted up, rather than only those answers to your own comments, that not much is said about the SNP, Salmond or indeed Stu on this site in general.

      There will be references to them in the replies to your statements and rhetorical questions of course because you are the person bringing up those names. And unfortunately it is this aspect which leads most seasoned commentators to believe you are indeed a troll, since this behaviour; this complete obsession with the Yes campaign being the personal vanity of one man, this idea that all the people backing the Yes campaign are in the SNP, or SNP supporters, and the idea that everyone who comments on this site is a Rev Stu groupie, is the behaviour of a unionist activist, not an undecided, not even a private no voting individual looking for debate.

      I know folk who are voting No, who are not activists in the pro-union Better Together No Thanks UKOK campaign, and these are not the kind of points they bring up in debate.

    147. crisiscult says:

      @Edward

      with respect, do you think the EU, or any other international body will be interested in the internal law of the UK or its constitution? If Scotland and rUK (or whatever we wanna call the other parts) agree, for example, that Scotland will be the continuator (very unlikely admittedly, and who in Scotland would want that). The issue, as mentioned above, is very much like a divorce. If both parties get too emotional here, then both lose because they’ll spend all their money on lawyers, probably have to sell the house at a lower price, etc etc

    148. Robert Peffers says:

      @Billy McKinlay says: 19 August, 2014 at 12:02 pm:

      “under international law, where sharing arrangements cannot be agreed, public and government institutions cannot be divided-up like ordinary assets by separating states”

      Balderdash! In the first place The United Kingdom is exactly what it says on the, “Tin”, for Tin read, “Title”. The Title is, “The United Kingdom”, and a Kingdom is a royal realm – it is not a state nor is it a country.

      The UK is a bipartite agreement between two equally sovereign kingdoms.

      Neither Westminster nor Holyrood are kingdoms they are both the parliaments of their respective kingdoms but there is a very important difference between the two.

      The three country Kingdom of England is, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, with a sovereign monarchy but in Scotland it is the people of Scotland who are legally sovereign.

      So there is no problem with disputed terms as these are clearly contained as agreed in the Treaty of Union.

    149. Hewitt83 says:

      @Joe Swan

      I don’t think it can be underestimated how many ‘No’ voters will not bother their arses to turn up on the day.

      I know plenty of people who have said they’ll vote No or are leaning towards No however in the same breath they say they probably won’t bother voting.

      I find this attitude incredible but I won’t certainly won’t be encouraging them to exercise their civic duty givne their leanings!

    150. Chic McGregor says:

      I think we should be trying to get the message out there that if you do not feel you are informed enough to vote then it is OK not to vote.

    151. john ferguson says:

      I am reading about the run up to the American revolution and can’t believe the similarity leading up to the referendum. The words from the union side saying the colonists were too genetically inferior and of the wrong breeding to govern themselves. Now where have I heard these words before and some hundred years later, it’s uncanny. “But baby just look at me now”. As the song goes. But again who would want a loaf when crumbs will do.

    152. creag an tuirc says:

      Billy McKinlay said “You also seem to be ignorant of the obvious fact that Scotland relies far more on UK trade than rUK would on Scottish trade, so if rUK’s economy did ‘die’ then Scotland’s would die too.” ERGO there will be a currency union 🙂

    153. Al says:

      I don’t think that any Yesser, is deluded enough to believe that come 19th Sept; it will be a cake walk into independence. It seems only the No camp, fear their own shadows; trying to shift their fear on others.

    154. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      OT

      BBC has announced that Comres will be selecting the audience for the next clash of the Titans at Kelvingrove Art Galleries next Monday.

      Why do I detect another stinking rodent?,

    155. seanair says:

      Jack Murphy
      Scotsman selling copies in Edinburgh (Fringe and Festival area) for £1.30 which includes a linen(?) bag with the Scotsman’s name on it. These being sold by street sellers who are getting paid for this. How the mighty have fallen!

    156. Onwards says:

      I agree with those who see this as a neutral piece, possibly ahead of a yes declaration.
      The sun is at heart a Tory paper.
      If they do support independence, it’s going to be along the lines of personal responsibility.
      Self reliance is a classic conservative principle, that has been put aside for unionism and British nationalism.

      Independence is about taking matters into our own hands, and it is right to be honest that there will be good times and bad times. Although our huge natural resources give a solid launch pad.

      Basically it’s like starting your own business, instead of being on benefits.
      Greater risk, but far greater opportunity too.

    157. Ken500 says:

      ‘Hard Decision’? Not blooming likely

      YES YES YES

    158. Ken500 says:

      US Federal States. approx 50 States 300million people. Average State size of Scotland, administrate their own State Law, can raise and spend their own taxes. Self government, but also Federal Law. Inequality of wealth etc.

      EU 500million people, contribution. Can’t raise and lower tax. Strive for equallity.

    159. desimond says:

      @Robert Louis

      All the no campaign has done is lose votes.

      I was thinking the other day how Blair MacDougall is emulating his hero Ally Mccoist but McCoist only lost a 15 point lead before seeing his challenge going down the pan!

    160. Edward says:

      crisiscult
      Its interesting that you think that the Treaty of Union as a
      ‘internal law’

      In 1706 England and Scotland were two separate nations
      so the Treaty would be classed as an international treaty between two nation states.

      The EU as such is built on Treaty’s, it just loves Treaty’s
      So for a point of reference for them they will look at the Treaty that created the United Kingdom in the First Place.

      England could argue the point that they are the ‘continuing state’ of the United Kingdom. But on what basis? Did Scotland join the United Kingdom in 1707? No it didn’t, it was an equal partnering state and that is what the EU will consider.

      Your argument elsewhere that there would be or could be objections from England or Spain , really doesn’t hold any water. First of all , either would look quite stupid in the eyes of the World, if either took the hump and tried blocking membership of any of the organisations.

      Secondly diplomats from all sides will work towards a smooth transition

    161. Cath says:

      I honesty don’t know how Alex hasn’t thumped anyone yet. There have been so many interviews where I’ve wanted to do it on his behalf. Yet he’s managed to remain calm, even often humorous in the face of it. Makes it look like he knows he’s winning!

    162. Arel says:

      O/T. Came back from a week’s holiday today and was approached by my extremely well mannered young polish neighbour. She commented on the large Yes sign in my window and told me that she and her husband well solid Yessers – “Tak” in Polish”. I also noticed another Yes sticker in another house that wasn’t there before I left last week. I only have about 8 doors in the street so that’s almost 50% of us. A bit unscientific I know but if this is being repeated across the country then things are looking good.

    163. Tom Foyle says:

      Can somebody not sue these bastards for libel? I mean, there have been prior instances where the complaints commission have fined publications for mis-reporting or irresponsible reporting, private lawsuits have been successful many times, yet more than one UK-wide daily has not only mis-reported but flat-out LIED in order to make an invalid point acceptable to certain, shall we say, less-aware citizens.
      If action isn’t taken to stop this kind of lying and illegal propaganda, what is the future going to hold for us? What if some idiot editor decides, for his own axe-sharpening, to report that David Cameron has ordered Trident missiles to be launched on Moscow in the event of a successful independence vote for Scotland? It makes no sense to print such stupidly dangerous material.

    164. Albaman says:

      Robert Peffers,
      Regarding “fracking”, what if there is a NO vote and Westminster takes some of our powers back, yes I am thinking of planning permission, that would open the door for nuclear power stations, and God knows what else .

    165. Albaman says:

      Anyway while I am on, Stew why don’t you demand a “correction ” statement of The Sun, a to be as prominent as the original .

    166. gerry parker says:

      @ Cath.

      “Beware the wrath of a patient man”

      🙂

    167. Harry McAye says:

      leafed through the Record in the local library, didn’t seem too bad today, Clegg apart. There is a belter of a letter winning the £20 today, using the analogy again of turning down your dream house because you didn’t like the wallpaper. One other good text letter too.

    168. Ken500 says:

      Murdoch should be in jail, along with most of Westminster. Fraudsters, embezzlers, murderers, child molesters and crooks. Good riddance to the lot.

    169. Ken500 says:

      Westminster controls the MSM, and will not implement Leveson because the public could have a slight redress against the MSM. Westminster wanted to keep control. The Guardian is the only paper which has any independence of Editorial. Clegg/Cameron put in Public thugs to smash up the Press room and threaten the Editor, who soon towed the line. Total corruption.

      A fair and balaced Press, no taxation without representation. Basics of democracy. Totally lacking.

    170. I met Nicola Sturgeon at a Yes Women event in Carnoustie on Sunday and she told us that we all know what the media is like and the only way to counter it is to keep pushing the truth forward to everyone we know. I refer folks to wingsoverscotland.com & newsnetscotland.com & referendumtv.net & The Wee Blue Book.

    171. crisiscult says:

      @Edward

      The point about Spain, rUK, or anyone else objecting wasn’t supposed to hold water. It was directed at Billy McKinlay (hopefully not the ‘badger’ I used to admire – Utd fans will know what I mean). This is one of the bases of ‘proud Scots’ arguments.

      The point about the legal basis of the establishment or constitutional structure of the UK is that the ‘international community’ will do what is expedient, and justify it under international law.

    172. David Smith says:

      @Devorgilla.
      SumofUs are running a big petition against TTIP.
      I’d urge anyone concerned to support it.

      action.sumofus.org/a/eci-ttip/2/3/?akid=6679.2311392.lcIdfY&ask=5&rd=1&sub=fwd&t=1

    173. doorstepper says:

      I will add my voice to the caution that it will be said that if we are taking on ‘thickos’, and they win, what does that say about us?

    174. David Dickson says:

      I’d like to bolster the comment made by Eoan earlier in this discussion.

      “Isn’t this Sun piece actually them positioning themselves to come out for Yes? It seems too light in tone to be read as a negative story. The tipping point has been reached imho. Things are shifting now.”

      This isn’t as far fetched as it seems. The tone of the article is mostly positive. No arguments from the other side in this small clip. Murdoch changed sides to get Blair elected. He changed sides to get Cameron elected. Whether you love him or loathe him (I’m one of the latter), he has been royally shafted by the establishment and may feel that he can get one over on them by changing sides again. Time will tell.



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