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Wings Over Scotland

More stuff that doesn’t matter

Posted on June 17, 2014 by

The big story in most of today’s papers is the British Social Attitudes survey, which has discovered a whole bunch of things of absolutely no importance whatsoever.


The Scotsman, for example, highlights the fact that while Scottish people don’t want the UK to have nuclear weapons, if they’re going to exist then a sizeable number of Scots want them – and the hundreds of jobs dependent on them – to stay on the Clyde. (Though just as many want them to leave.)

None of which, of course, will have the slightest effect on anything.

Because the location of the UK’s nuclear “deterrent” wasn’t decided by a “Strictly Come Dancing”-style public vote in the first place, and it won’t be if Scotland becomes independent. Under nuclear non-proliferation treaties the submarines CAN’T stay in Scotland unless Faslane is designated rUK territory, which is for all practical purposes impossible and has been ruled out by both the Scottish and UK governments.

Only safety concerns will enable them to remain in place temporarily until the rUK either builds a replacement missile base or decides to decommission the weapons.

Meanwhile, the Telegraph goes with a different finding from the poll:

“The inhabitants of an independent Scotland should be forced to choose between being a Scottish or British citizen, according to a major survey published today of public opinion south of the Border.

The British Social Attitudes (BSA) survey found around six out of ten people in England and Wales think British citizens in a newly separate Scotland should have to make a ‘clear choice’ compared to only a third who said they should be able to have dual nationality.”

Roughly 400,000 English people live in Scotland and around twice that many Scots live in the rest of the UK. The UK government and Scottish government have both already made clear that they’ll implement dual nationality for two generations in the event of independence – not least, one suspects, because the alternative would be to forcibly repatriate 1.2 million people across the border, a project of farcical absurdity which would in any event contravene EU law.

The opinion of the public about it, then, could scarcely be any more irrelevant to anything if it tried. Neither government will pay the slightest heed to it, and it will affect nothing. The survey would have served more meaningful purpose had it enquired which the nation’s favourite flavour of Fruit Gums was, because at least then Rowntree’s would have had the option of bringing out a “lime-only” bag or something and perhaps making some money.

Less widely reported, appearing (we think) only in the Herald, another survey – the British Election Study – found that “A majority of voters want the most important powers to rest with the Scottish Parliament in all policy domains except defence.”

Once again, the opinion of voters on this subject is a matter of supreme indifference, because such a state of affairs – the arrangement commonly known as “devo max” or Full Fiscal Autonomy – isn’t on the referendum ballot paper and isn’t proposed by any party on any side of the debate.

Readers might be somewhat bemused as to why people keep asking the Scottish (and British) people their opinions about things which nobody in power cares about their opinions on, and indeed why newspapers report it as if it’s significant news.

But only the most cynical, we’re sure, would conclude that it was an attempt to muddy the waters of the independence debate with decoys and doubt. After all, in whose interests would that be?

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    193 to “More stuff that doesn’t matter”

    1. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Explain this to me. How can we want defence, of all things, to remain reserved to Westminster, while at the same time wanting rid of nuclear weapons?

    2. TJenny says:

      How can anyone want defence reserved to Westminster, which allows them to take us into illegal wars?

    3. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      And I must be really, really cynical.

    4. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      The Poodle, The Witch (pick your dodge) and the Ikea Wardrobe

    5. Bugger (the Panda) says:



    6. Hotrod Cadets says:

      Lime? Ridiculous. It’s the purple ones every time.

    7. galamcennalath says:

      Thanks Stu. Until now I didn’t appreciate I was cynical. Something new every day.

    8. MajorBloodnok says:


      I think it’s because nukes aren’t for defence, they’re for ATTACK!

    9. Richy Duncan says:

      I hate surveys ,

      I always find myself wondering about the people around me who voted on things they don’t know about . Guessing is ok tho. It baffles me what they can be used for .



    10. Murray McCallum says:

      On the topic of irrelevance, I see John Major was in Edinburgh today saying an independent Scotland would face “possible irrelevance”.

      Why is John broadcasting the realities of Tory party electoral success in Scotland present and future?

      Anyway, I hope he’s enjoying his peas at whatever hotel he is staying at.

    11. TJenny says:

      Hotrod Cadets – ‘Lime? Ridiculous. It’s the purple ones every time.’

      Gadzooks – do we have a UKIPer in our midst?

    12. Proud Cybernat says:

      And other stuff that doesn’t matter is Gordon Brown’s call today that Scottish Education, independent since the Act of Union, should be brought under UK control. Isn’t that kinda like devolution in reverse gear?

    13. Jim Marshall says:

      British Social Attitudes survey ? More like Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds,a psychedelic dream world. To think people actually spend money on newspapers to read this stuff. I am baffled.

    14. Hotrod Cadets says:

      “Gadzooks – do we have a UKIPer in our midst?”

      Darn it, my cover’s blown! Vote no, string ’em up, etc.

    15. galamcennalath says:

      Trident. Why are alternative facilities claimed to be so expensive? Anyone know?

      I can understand why the good people of Barrow, Plymouth or Portsmouth don’t want these things on their doorstep – only a total idiot would. However, if rUK intends to keep them, they will have to go somewhere in England’s green and pleasant land. So what’s the construction problem?

    16. Paula Rose says:

      I think the only stuff that matters is our positive vision for Scotland’s future.

    17. john king says:

      “Anyway, I hope he’s enjoying his peas at whatever hotel he is staying at.”

      Ha ha ha
      nice peas dear. 🙂

    18. Caroline Corfield says:

      nukes are for mutually assured destruction

    19. Calum Craig says:

      The UK allows dual/ multi nationality absolutely no problem. My daughter has British and Japanese passports. She will add a Scottish one in 2016 all being well. I personally will not renew UK when it runs out.

    20. velofello says:

      Fair point Morag. Like the song, Love and Marriage,Trident and UK defense policy go together.

      Living in Ayrshire I talk up the Trident vs West coast oil resources opportunities denied to us, when canvassing. Also pose the question -“When the Russian ship (s) entered the Moray Firth did the UK send a Trident submarine to intercept?. No?. Then just what use is Trident to Scotland?”.

      Usually raises a nod and smile.

    21. Andy C says:

      A bit worrying…Cameron still hasn’t said there will be no ‘boots on the ground’ in Scotland.
      So that’s possibly still on the agenda then?
      Wouldn’t put it past them.
      Maybe THAT’S why he’s canvassing other leaders opinions.

    22. Jim Marshall says:

      cynicalHighlander 7.21

      Amusing piece. Now that Iran is our new friend, Teheran will be the “in” holiday destination.

    23. Fiona says:

      Seems to me that, at least in terms of nationality and passports, the british people have no clue about the current situation at all. Their views are therefore less than worthless, unless they were asked if they wish to change the law wrt nationality across the board. Were they asked?

    24. GrahamB says:

      This survey was carried out last year, before the White Paper was published, which explains the many anomolous results that Prof Curtice was attempting to make sense of on GMS this morning.
      If it was repeated now after all the debate the results would be quite different I expect and the now educated electorate would not throw up such ridiculous anomolies.

    25. heedtracker says:

      France has Brest to keep their Trident missiles with a coastal terrain much like the south west of England. So Westminster can store their nukes on the English Riviera or next to Bristol maybe. Be interesting listening to Bristolians discussing the merits of being in the blast zone of teamGB Trident missile’s several hundred mega ton blast yield.

      Hiroshima and Nagasaki were approx 20 kilotons each, but if Trident nukes are so safe, what could go wrong in the Bristol Channel?

    26. Colin says:

      I think the number of Scots in the survey was under 300, hardly representative of the whole of Scotland.

    27. SquareHaggis says:

      Anyone know if Faslane is part of the Crown Estate?
      Are these estates negotiable, I heard at a BfS meeting recently that they are not.

    28. ronnie anderson says:

      John n Edwina played juggleing the egg, the soon got bored

      wie that an ended up in bed,noo you canny make that up kin


    29. Colin says:

      I just read on the guardian site that the Chinese have come out against Scotland having independence, when asked by the BBC.

      It really is amazing how many people outside Scotland don’t want us to be independent when asked by the BBC, or standing next to Dave.

    30. Papadox says:

      Watched J Major in Emburgh talking utter urine. Who paid for that clown to come up here and try to scare us. The last time he came to Scotland to give us a wee pep talk he lost all Scottish Tory MPs bar one, some people never learn.
      You would need to hear his infantile speech it really is unbelievable, or he thinks we are thick as pig sh*t.

    31. Jim Marshall says:

      Re J.Major in Edinburgh. Next we”ll have Eggwina telling us all our eggs will be contaminated if we vote YES.

    32. Defo says:

      Think Tibet.

    33. Papadox says:

      Eggwina wasn’t in Emburgh to day was she? That would be a coincidence by Jove.

    34. cynicalHighlander says:

      Now maybe the UK is getting a little tetchy in all these foreign interventions against our independence nothing to do with that volatile black stuff being a millstone.

    35. Jim Marshall says:


      Don”t think Eggwina was there, it”s just that I always associate Major with her.

    36. Andy C says:

      The black stuff that finances their wars?

    37. ronnie anderson says:

      @papadox wiz the Fragrant Mary with him.

    38. heedtracker says:

      @ ronnie anderson, takes you back, mind Major’s “back to basics/my place” hypocrisy?

      Wiki says

      Back to Basics was a political campaign announced by British Prime Minister John Major at the Conservative party conference of 1993 in Blackpool. Intended as a nostalgic appeal to traditional values, it subsequently backfired when a succession of Conservative ministers were caught up in scandals.

      TeamGB’s certainly produces some the world greatest liars and hypocrites, currently attacking Scottish democracy 2014.

    39. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Jim Marshall

      Did you see the whites of her eyes?

    40. donald anderson says:

      Better Together with Iran.

    41. ronnie anderson says:

      Referenum 2014 is gonna be dire tonite so nae change there


    42. Free Scotland says:

      The media are making a co-ordinated attempt to trivialise our referendum, reducing it to the level of a survey, or a “strictly-come-dancing telephone poll. This is most likely an attempt to distract us, while they work out what on earth to do about Obama’s latest Iraq scheme.

    43. Jim Marshall says:

      SquareHaggis 7.30

      “Anyone know if Faslane is part of the Crown Estate?”

      The Crown owns all shoreline up to high water mark. I would think that the MOD will own the base and the land where the missiles are stored.

    44. Andy C says:

      The Chinese are going to finance HS2 (at what rate of interest?)
      So Cameron already knows he can’t rely on the Bank of North Sea Oil anymore?
      Just reading between the lines…..

    45. velofello says:

      Just don’t make ’em like that any more – Cricket, the click of leather on willow, warm beer, and your shirt tucked in your underpants.

    46. DocFin says:

      I’m guessing that having signed a £12 Billion deal with BP and securing 20 years LPG the Chinese premier was just in a good mood. Still, I’m sure an independent Scotland will match, and probably exceed, the £560 million of exports of 2013.
      Do we still get to hang on to the Pandas? Perhaps a Panda intervention is needed. Bugger?

    47. cynicalHighlander says:

      Crown Estates ownership this guy will know.

    48. Paula Rose says:

      Is the HS2 going to Beijing after Birmingham?

    49. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Paula Rose

      It will be made in China and sold to the UK just like Hornby did in sets.

    50. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Paula Rose

      It will be made in China and sold to the UK just like Hornby did in sets.

    51. Papadox says:

      If they go back any further trying to find past politicians to scare us they will need to dig them up from somewhere. Sorry, apologies don’t mean to give them any ideas.

    52. Donald says:

      O/T – apols. Did a fair bit of canvassing today. Positives – English born folk, I love you. Did all the insightful, witty, clever, Yes voting ones move up? From my spectacularly unscientific poll the view of English born people is that they live here and want the best for their kids and themselves. That means Yes.

      Negatives – older folk. Not quite, ‘Houston, we have a problem’ time but blimey, it’s clear many read the Daily Mail and treat the BBC as gospel.

      Also being tourist season I came across real life UKIP voters. Holy crap! I mean unbelievable. Total, unadulterated racism and islamaphobia. No word of joke, this was Alf Garnet reincarnated, moved way to the right and injected with added hatred. Forget what the TV says, these people are utterly horrible.

    53. Defo says:


      Didn’t you know ? Islamophobia is the new black.

    54. TJenny says:

      Defo – sorry, I think tartan is the new black. 🙁

    55. Thepnr says:

      The spin that the media are putting on the Trident question is just another fudge.

      There were in fact 3 questions, the first that was asked in both Scotland (Scottish Social Attitudes survey) and England & Wales (British Social Attitiudes, respondents living in England and Wales only). The question was:

      Are you in favour or against Britain having its own nuclear weapons?

      Response: (Table linked later)

      “On the one hand, it is the case that, in England and Wales more people (43 per cent) support having nuclear weapons than oppose their possession (36 per cent),whereas in Scotland, where 37 per cent are in favour and 46 per cent opposed, the opposite is true.

      On the other hand, the differences in the level of support are not that large, and both parts of the UK could reasonably be described as being divided on the subject.
      A decision either to retain or to scrap Britain’s nuclear capability could be expected to meet considerable opposition on both sides of the border.”

      The question the media are reporting is not a single question at all but two entirely differently worded questions for which I believe the results cannot be comparable. In fact the second question asked in Scotland is where the 41% comes from rather than the 37% above.

      Just the usual manipulation where if the answer doesn’t suit the agenda the first time of asking, rephrase the question and try again. Bullshitters. (Page 31)

    56. Thepnr says:

      Sorry, link doesn’t work, it can be downloaded here:

    57. Defo says:

      Ta for the correction T Jenny.
      Can’t stand the stuff, reminds me of Scotts shortbread tin reinvention of Scotland. Same goes for men in skirts…

    58. Democracy Reborn says:

      How about this question then, put to a representative sample of Scots voters:-

      “Are you for or against £100 billion being spent on nuclear weapons?”

    59. north chiel says:

      why does the Scotsman newspaper lead with out of date survey information.Perhaps the data from this survey has been gathered using the similar data gathering and “weighting” techniques as per recent surveys in the” Westminster state media” showing NO/YES AT 60/40.The ever increasing number of “former readers ” of this supposed “news” paper, have probably long since concluded that they might as well subscribe to the “Beano”.

    60. Caroline Corfield says:


      Can you let us know what the wording of the second question that was asked of Scots was? I’d like to post your explanation on my fb page, as a lot of people are just going to go with the fudge that BBC have given them.

      I presume that when you said 3 questions you are referring to the one you do state being asked independently twice, of Scots and of English/Welsh and then another question of Scots only.


    61. TJenny says:

      Defo – I most definitely can’t agree about men in kilts or ‘skirts’ as you say, especially the modern non-tartan versions. I find men in kilts uber sexy. 🙂

    62. Paula Rose says:

      @ TJenny – me too!

    63. SquareHaggis says:

      @Jim Marshall 7.52

      This whole Crown Estates thing seems very odd.
      Don’t know about anyone else but having a 12 mile CE zone right the way around the Scottish mainland does not sit well with me, especially if that zone is not controlled from Scotland.
      If we wanted to do anything in these zones would we have to ask, and to whom, for permission to use?
      If Faslane is CE “territory”…

      Perhaps some legal eagles onboard more knowledgeable?

    64. Thepnr says:

      @Caroline Corfield

      Given the division of opinion, we should not perhaps be surprised that people in Scotland are not necessarily convinced that becoming independent should require the removal of British nuclear weapons. In fact slightly more people agree (41 per cent) than disagree (37 per cent) with the proposition that:

      If Scotland becomes independent, Britain’s nuclear weapons submarines should continue to be based here

      In England & Wales it was:

      At the moment, Britain’s nuclear weapon submarines are based in Scotland. Regardless of whether you support or oppose Britain having nuclear weapons, if Scotland became an independent country, separate from the rest of the UK, should Britain’s nuclear weapons remain in Scotland or should they be moved to somewhere else in Britain?

      Only around a quarter (26 per cent) think Britain’s nuclear weapons should remain in Scotland in these circumstances, while 63 per cent feel they should “definitely” or “probably” be moved elsewhere. Ironically, should Scotland vote ‘Yes’, it is public opinion in the rest of the UK that would be keen to see Britain’s nuclear
      weapons removed from Scotland rather than people within Scotland itself – most likely in many cases out of a wish to ensure that those weapons are still in a location that is fully within the UK’s control.

      That’s the full text from that section. They got an answer they liked but still the manipulation is obvious.

    65. Paula Rose says:

      @ Caroline – Honey, I think the confusion arises because not everyone is aware at how successful nukes are at keeping aliens at bay.

    66. Defo says:

      T Jenny

      Easy access ?

      Everyone to their own. I doubt the kilt would keep you warm sleeping out when droving.

      I’m here to be corrected, but I think what Scott did was finish of what was started after 1745.

      Anyhoo, in the past it must remain. It’s our kids future that’s important now.

    67. Derek M says:

      here is a British Social Attitude get your damn nukes out my back yard!

      “The inhabitants of an independent Scotland should be forced to choose between being a Scottish or British citizen, according to a major survey published today of public opinion south of the Border.”

      eh! “the inhabitants” why dont you just say “the people” you idiots! and if you are going to force me then you can stick your British citizenship where the sun dont shine a small price for freedom.

    68. Thepnr says:

      Note the “Regardless of whether you support or oppose Britain having nuclear weapons” in the question to E&W.

      How could anyone compare these 3 different answers to different questions? Something only warped Unionist minds can do. Question 1 was the only legitimate one, which shows clearly 36% of people in E&W oppose WMD but in Scotland that figure is 46%. A significant difference.

    69. Jill P says:

      DocFin says:

      17 June, 2014 at 7:56 pm

      Do we still get to hang on to the Pandas? Perhaps a Panda intervention is needed.

      I have it from a very reliable source that we still get to keep the pandas.

    70. GrahamB says:

      Jim Marshall, Square Haggis
      Calman recommended Crown Estate revenue should go to SG but oddly enough that never made it into the Scotland Bill 2012. We did get control of air guns though – need to sell an awful lot of expensive gun licences to equal Crown Estates revenue.

    71. Defo says:

      Re the Crown claiming the 12 miles and shoreline.

      Tell Liz to GTF. What can they do ? Naff all.

    72. SquareHaggis says:

      Thanks fot the link cynicalHighlander 😉

    73. Neil Craig says:

      “voters want the most important powers to rest with the Scottish Parliament in all policy”

      Now that is, as so often the case, a dodgy question. Do people think they should get ALL the most important powers other than defence, or just the majority of them and which are most important and which ones aren’t? Is the £, for example, a most important power – the SNP actively don’t seem to think so. is EU membership?

      However the overwhelming problems with the SNP claim to “need the powers” to fix the economy are (A) they never say what powers would do it or how & (B) they have always had the power to vary income tax, a most important fiscal power there, either downwards, which would certainly improve the economy, or upwards, so they could spend more on government.

      If, for ideological reasons, the SNP have been damning us to recession, and they have, are they going to change their stripes when they have total power?

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      Apologises for coming in so early. 😉

      Big Mama Thornton & Chicago All Stars & Muddy Waters’ Blues Band – Hound Dog

    75. CyberNiall says:

      They might just use them before the referendum…

    76. Thepnr says:

      Ignore Neil, he hopes to deflect and change the subject. Troll Alert.

    77. CyberNiall says:

      The nukes that it :S

    78. Paula Rose says:

      Has anyone asked the pandas?

    79. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Jill P says:
      17 June, 2014 at 8:40 pm


      I am going nowhere.

      Rest assured.

    80. Paula Rose says:

      @ Thepnr – it’s OK Neil has it on good authority that Scotland will have a space port in Lossiemouth (says it all).

    81. Jill P says:

      I asked the Pandas yesterday. Yang Guan is in training for his appearances at Murrayfield next year, and Tian Tian isn’t giving up her Jenners account for anyone.

      So they are staying where they are. 🙂

    82. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      The use of any old poll dressed up as earth shattering and splashed all over the MSM?

      All designed to get the proposals for a Scottish Constitution relegated to the small ads section.

    83. Defo says:

      Everyone knows pandas are total whores. They’ll say anything for a tasty shoot. 😉

    84. Paula Rose says:

      @BtP – the bamboo wants repatriated!

    85. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Neil Craig

      Good evening Mr UKIP man Income tax is useless on its own as if it is increased it goes straight to the treasury who can give some or none of it back to Scotland and similarly if it is decreased the block grant will suffer the same fate. In a nutshell it cannot be used to benefit Scotland only harm.

    86. Defo says:

      Oops, Sorry BTP. Almost all Pandas are…

    87. Thepnr says:

      @Caroline Corfield

      I didn’t explain that very well, there was a single question asked in both Scotland and rUK. My first post.

      Then two different questions, one for each jurisdiction, as above.

    88. Paula Rose says:

      Defo dear – what about the shoots!

    89. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Paula Rose


    90. TJenny says:

      Thepnr – no need for warning – we can spot them a mile off. 🙂 (Is it possible he’s also a green?)

    91. G H Graham says:

      I have had dual nationality for 7 years and counting: Scottish (British) & American. Neither country has demanded that I give up the other passport nor have they suggested a time limit is in place.

      Anyway, folks in Northern Ireland (still British as far as citizenship is concerned) have had the option of also having concurrent ownership of a Republic or Ireland passport for years.

      And as a European citizen, I am allowed to relocate, live & work in any other EU country even though I don’t have a passport from any other EU country.

      This story about people being forced to choose Scottish or rUK (British) nationality is quite simply, a bag of shite.

    92. Paula Rose says:

      @ TJenny – Green with envy that he won’t be on the winning side (and for all of you reading this, I am a green party supporter – but this is a usual opening gambit from trolls).

    93. TJenny says:

      G H Graham – only one of many bags o’ shite in the biggest bag o’ shite, in the worrld. (Said in the bestest Jeremy Clarkson voice). : -)

    94. Thepnr says:


      Quite simply agree, you not from a wee town in Angus per chance?

    95. TJenny says:

      Paula Rose – what is it with online ‘green’ posters, yourself excluded of course, darling.? Does their green, stand for envy (of the SNP)?

    96. TJenny says:

      Erk – Paula Rose, a squillion apologies, he’s just outed himself as a, gulp, UKIPPer!

    97. Paula Rose says:

      Now, bear with me dears we are about to take a walk into the woods – In our new sustainable Scotland we we are going to need to understand the value of manure as a valuable fertiliser. I think we need to adjust our thinking and describe the offerings of the MSM and the Unionist parties as inedible and not fit for consumption.

    98. Thepnr says:

      O/T If your just in from work and skipped a few posts. Well worthwhile wee fundraiser going on here to help out the Wee Ginger Dug.

    99. Paula Rose says:

      As this thread is about stuff that doesn’t matter I’m afraid I’m going to go O/T – the wings over Angus charabanc will head for Edinburgh on the 4th of July if enough people want to be on board. It will pick up from anywhere in Angus where there is demand – go to Off-topic to register.

    100. TheItalianJob says:

      @G H Graham

      Spot on ref dual nationality. The nationality thing is diversion from the real issues.

    101. Caroline Corfield says:

      lol, thanks for that

    102. HandandShrimp says:

      I’m bemused at the BBC asking all and sundry what they think of Scottish independence. I am mildly perplexed at the delight of the Thankless regarding Li’s comments.

      What next? John Simpson popping up in Tikrit and asking an Isis commander their view on the referendum? It is fast becoming a farce. That said, a farce that I think is apparent to even many undecided voters. I’m not convinced we should discourage them.

    103. Robert Peffers says:

      I had no idea there were so many utter ignorant people in, “BRITAIN”.
      In the first place Britain is not a country. It is an archipelago that contains 8 countries. These are Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Irish Republic, The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

      Oh! Wait up, I seem to have missed one. Let me see! Oh! Aye! I almost forgot about England. Now, although there are 8 countries, the mix also contains one kingdom that contains four of those already mentioned countries.

      This kingdom is, however, composed of the three country Kingdom of England and the Kingdom, (& country), of Scotland. These two kingdoms signed a treaty to not only become a united kingdom but also to have just one parliament between them.

      However, this all has nothing to do with Britishness as being British is to belong to ANY part of the whole archipelago.

      Who would have thought there were so many people in the British Isles who are so poorly educated that they are confused as to what constitutes their own unalienable right to be British?

    104. Paula Rose says:

      @ Robert – but will we be able to be Worldish after independence?

    105. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Any idea of what percentage of the survey is actually of Scots and how they were selected.

      I actually don’t know any intelligent Scot who wants us to have nuclear weapons on Scottish soil

    106. Andy-B says:

      There was a talk-in today on BBC Radio Scotland,called Morning Call, and the first half hour or so was all about Trident quite few people who stay near the missile base in Cove and Helensburgh wanted Trident out.

      Though to listen to the BBC Radio presenter Louise White,it was the other way around, she kept pushing the BSA survey to keep Trident.

    107. RenateJ says:

      China are hardly going to back independence for a small country given their track record on ruling over neighbouring nations

    108. SquareHaggis says:

      Re Crown Estates

      Checked out two HOC Scottish Affairs Select Committee reports, one from 2012 and an updated version from 2014

      Apart from scetcy detail on the CEC itself and who they actually are, noticed an interesting omission at the end of paragraph 2.

    109. handclapping says:

      As far as the MSM is concerned, it is totally, totally important that we drive forward to the new Scotland keeping our eyes on the rearview mirror

    110. Lockie says:

      Leave defence with Britain ! they’re reopening the embassy in Iran so the locals can attack it, then we need to go to war alongside the USA

    111. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      does anyone know latest viewing figures for scotland 2014?

    112. Derek M says:

      ahem i think you would have a hard job convincing my friends in Cork that they were part of Britain Robert lol

    113. donald anderson says:

      Cameron is trying to recruit the Ayatollah against the Yes campaign. The Brits and the Yanks always found “good” and “bad” Muslims to suit their purposes. They backed the Taliban against the Ruskies and Saddam Hussein against the Ayatollah They have gone completely mad. The more they interfere the more they will have terrorist reactions against them.

    114. R whittington says:

      Rev, when are you going to do another Sensible Soccer?

    115. Thepnr says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      “Any idea of what percentage of the survey is actually of Scots and how they were selected.”

      Interestingly enough it seems that there were more Scots polled than E&W in the questions where they compared attitudes in both domains as they were from two different surveys.

      1497 is Scotland and only 981 in England & Wales. Best check for yourself.

    116. Paula Rose says:

      @ R whittington – when we’ve done more stuff that doesn’t matter 😉

    117. X_Sticks says:

      Bugger (the Panda) says:

      “designed to get the proposals for a Scottish Constitution relegated to the small ads section.”

      Yup, white noise.

      Get your Scottish Constitution consultation here:

      The Summary:

      Consultation on on an interim constitution for Scotland:

    118. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dave McEwan Hill
      I was having a chat with a taxi driver, who was a Scot of Pakistani heritage. He certainly didn’t support wars of imperial intervention and thought Trident was madness. He was still uncertain though, particularly reguarding EU membership, which currency, yadda-yadda. I blame the Fear, Uncertainty and Depression, peddled by our media.

      I suggested he check out what is happening in Baluchistan, and here on WOS.

    119. Thepnr says:

      This is very interesting about the survey. Surely at least one has Scotlands interests at heart?

      Funding – The survey is funded by a range of charitable and government sources, which change from year to year. Questions in the 2013 survey were funded by the following:

      “The Department for Work and Pensions, the Department for Transport, the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Government Equalities Office, and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, The King’s Fund, the Economic and the Social Research Council (ESRC), Unbound Philanthropy, the Trust for London, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, the Paul Hamlyn Foundation and the Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial Fund.

    120. Free at 63! says:

      Re Trident.

      In the late 80s when my husband was working away from home and I had 4 children sleeping peacefully in their rooms I saw the convoy from my front windows heading south late at night (it was summer)and it scared the proverbial out of me. They were less than 200 yards from my house.

      Before that my husband had taken us for a day out to Kilcreggan and on the way he stopped the car so we could admire the view which was spectacular. He then asked if I knew what was under the ‘hill’ – I did. I do not want, under any circumstances, for my children and grandchildren to be living with WMD so close to them.

      The sooner we get rid of Trident the better. Only a ‘Yes’ vote will guarantee it.

    121. Paula Rose says:

      @ Free at 63! Not long now.

    122. eezy says:

      It’s all Smoke & Mirrors and it’ll step up a few gears.
      Stuart, you be careful. You must be dealing with so much stuff already?

      Take care….

    123. Free at 63! says:

      @Paula Rose – hope not. I’ll be happy if they’re gone by my 70th birthday in September 2020!

      @eezy It’s been smoke and mirrors for years and I agree Stu should take care.

    124. Grouse Beater says:

      Today we are friends with Iran.

      Yesterday we were mortal enemies.

      So too was or special relationship pal, the US.

      That’s how easily political pragmatism can swallow long held emnity. It can alter in a day and our elected representaives can look us in the eye and think nothing of it. All that propaganda we suffered for years shot at Iran and all those sanctions, today are rendered nil and void.

      We didn’t really mean it.

      And Westminster says it will not give Scotland a penny.

      Aye right. But keep a sharp look out.

      They mean to send us back to Iraq to die.

      And forget we have a country of our own.

    125. Thepnr says:

      Grouse Beater

      I’m due you an apology. So sorry.

    126. Sue says:

      “the alternative would be to forcibly repatriate 1.2 million people across the border”

      Stuff that, I’m doing my bit for indy, and I’m staying!

    127. Dr Ew says:


      Just in from nearly three hours canvassing, sat down with a cup of tea and a slice of toast, checked the scores of the football games I’ve missed, then clicked on Wings.

      Can I say, TJen, it did my heart and sore feet good to stumble across your nasty wee sneer at the Greens. Funnily enough I find not being SNP member is often an advantage on the doorstep, not least because it disarms certain arguments about policy intentions and focuses conversation on what this referendum is really about – democracy. Sovereignty of the people.

      There was an upsurge in anti-Green remarks from several quarters around the time of the Euro elections when – sin of sins – us Greens had the temerity to campaign for our policies and our candidates rather than vote SNP in hope Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh could squeeze home for the a third SNP seat

      I’ve been very friendly with several SNP folk for several years and in the past 18 months have become friends with a lot more. I have huge respect for what the party has achieved and, generally, for the integrity of its elected representatives.

      I’ve also delivered hundreds – more probably thousands, come to think of it – of the so-called ‘Yes’ newspaper, though it is in fact produced for and by the SNP. Gritted my teeth and got on with it because it on balance it seemed better than not doing it.

      So please, TJen, if you feel this site should be a domain exclusive to those who support every dotted i and crossed t of SNP policy, then please let me know and I’ll fuck off.

      Otherwise, give the anti-Green shitstirring a fucking rest.


    128. Grouse Beater says:

      The PNR said: So sorry.

      Any person who rejects a nation engineered for passive consumerism but sees instead individuals with hopes and desires and a passion for a life of real choices is a friend of mine.

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      I may have posted this before.

      A former British Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, is reputedly once to have said of Great Britain:

      We have no permanent allies,
      we have no permanent enemies,
      we only have permanent interests.

      –attributed to Henry John Temple Viscount Lord Palmerston 1784-1865, Foreign Secretary and two-time Prime Minister under Queen Victoria. What he actually said was [concerning apparent British apathy regarding Polish struggles against Russian hegemony, which Palmerston did not believe that it met the threshold of justifiable war].

      “He concluded with the famous peroration that Britain had no eternal allies and no perpetual enemies, only interest that were eternal and perpetual . . .

      –quoted in David Brown,
      Palmerston and the Politics of Foreign Policy, 1846-1855
      (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 2002), pp. 82-83.
      (n.b. – v. poorly formatted)

      I doubt much has changed. The House of Lords is pretty much the same, for example, give or take a few hereditaries.

      Grouse Beater
      Yet HMG Better Together expect us to depend on being gifted “Powers for a Purpose” or the surprisingly more ‘generous’ Tory jam tomorrow? I sure the cynicism and misleading nature of the title chosen for Labour’s offering, melts your brain as well.

    130. TJenny says:

      Ooh Dr Ew, I never meant to insult all greens, crivvens oor Paula Rose is a Green as are most of my friends.

      It’s just that the vituperative Greens that sometimes appear on here, like the dug that shall not be named etc, annoy me as they only ever seem to carp about the SNP without ever, for a moment, giving any kudos to the SNP for getting us to where we are. They would appear to want to cross the is and dot the ts, before we even have the indy ref vote.

      Maybe it’s just me. 🙁 If so, soz.

    131. Liquid Lenny says:

      Defo The Monies from the Crown Estates don’t go to Lizzie, they went in exchange for the squillions of pocket money we give her and dysfunctional family every year.

    132. Thepnr says:

      Parties are not important, as an ex Labour man I have no affiliation. It is impossible to support the current set up.

      I have joined LFI, that was my first baby step but without independence I may choose to put an X in the Greens SSP or SNP. Anyone but Labour to be honest. I feel they have betrayed rgeir principles.

      Dr Ew, I have no problem with you defending the party that you support. To be honest though I think TJenny was referring to Duggie, a definite Troll and Bay Rok a strong supporter of Ms Lally. Doubt there was any offence intended towards Green Supporters only those two recent posters.

      I’m sure that for these last 92 days we can drop all support of any political party with a single goal in mind. Let’s not allow a divide and conquer strategy any inroad whatsoever.

    133. Robert Graham says:

      sorry to upset all you good well intentioned folk but the result of the referendum is known and has been known for some time all thats left is for the people in the shadows to tidy up the loose ends there is no way this government will let us have the result we want a “YES” vote in september there is nothing this lot won’t do to make sure this ends in a close second place for yes been thinking about this for months now this lot have to much to lose

    134. Paula Rose says:

      Dr Ew – don’t you even think about it doll, us greens are as welcome on this site as any others, TJenny will get some icy stares from me if she thinks otherwise – Hi TJ doll xx.

    135. orri says:

      Control of the Crown Estates, and ownership, is with the government. That’s how they could even contemplate devolving those in Scotland to Holyrood. If we gain independence then control of them goes to us so there’ll be no nonsense about somehow the rUK will retain control of our coastline or Faslane.

    136. Grouse Beater says:

      Dr Ew said: nasty wee sneer at the Greens.

      I read that as, ‘sneering at your greens.’ Even sprouts cooked the right way can make a tasty dish.

    137. Paula Rose says:

      Oh dear we’re all being silly – make up everyone kisses all round, let’s get this started.

    138. Paula Rose says:

      My purple sprouting broccoli has just finished, never mind, the rocket is launching.

    139. TJenny says:

      Thought I’d posted this earlier – here goes again.

      Ooh Dr Ew, I never meant to insult all greens, crivvens oor Paula Rose is a Green as are most of my friends.

      It’s just that the vituperative Greens that sometimes appear on here, like the dug that shall not be named etc, annoy me as they only ever seem to carp about the SNP without ever, for a moment, giving any kudos to the SNP for getting us to where we are. They would appear to want to cross the is and dot the ts, before we even have the indy ref vote.

      Maybe it’s just me. 🙁 If so, soz.

    140. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Graham

      I too have shared your fear but I very much doubt any skulduggery will be possible in this country. Let’s just say there will be plenty of volunteers and decent honest folk willing to keep an eye on the papers.

      Both in the polling stations, on their way to the counting stations and at the count itself.

      They wouldn’t dare, it would be a disaster for the rUK for any underhandedness to become public. If you win 50% of the vote, then at least 50% of the people involved are involved in the process of gathering and counting votes.

      No reason to worry, I believe there is no option other than to accept the vote.

    141. X_Sticks says:

      Thepnr says:

      “there will be plenty of volunteers and decent honest folk willing to keep an eye on the papers. Both in the polling stations, on their way to the counting stations and at the count itself.”


    142. Paula Rose says:

      @ TJ – honey, apart from Bay Kwan Rok I doubt the others were/are xx

    143. TJenny says:

      Paula Rose – then I shall humbly bow to your superior wisdom.

    144. Clootie says:

      I want an Independent Scotland with a SNP/Green/SSP/ LFI coalition implementing the common weal.

    145. HandandShrimp says:


      I have my doubts as to how Green our wee concern trolls are. I think it is a convenient fig leaf to sow dissent. In my experience Greens can get feisty but it tends to be over things like fracking and hydrocarbon usage not arguing that AlicSammin is an evil YesNP dictator.

    146. TJenny says:

      Paula Rose, Dr Ew, HandandShrimp et al – parhaps I’ve maybe just been a bit (ahem) green in my perceptions. 🙂

    147. TheItalianJob says:


      Again good posts and wise interventions to keep all focused on the end game.

      We are all after, striving for the result we are hoping for. But as you state we will all stand by the vote as decided by the people of Scotland.

    148. Paula Rose says:

      @ HandandShrimp we can get very vexed over borders in our gardens 🙂

    149. CameronB Brodie says:

      Could prove slow in passing legislation, but that might be as far to the ‘right’ as I would think prudent. At least until we have undone the structural impairment that is the true Union Dividend.

    150. Paula Rose says:

      @ TheItalianJob – whichever way it goes I will need a lie down.

    151. Rock says:

      donald anderson,

      “Cameron is trying to recruit the Ayatollah against the Yes campaign.”

      What worries me is once Cameron begs the democratically elected North Korean leader to come out against independence, we will lose the referendum.

    152. Stuart says:

      I don’t know if this has already been mentioned – not got time to read all the posts – but here goes. This is the statement that people were asked to respond to – “If Scotland becomes independent, Britain’s nuclear weapons submarines should continue to be based here.” That statement only refers to the submarines and what kind of submarines they are. It does not say that nuclear weapons should still be stored here, only that the subs that carry them when out on patrol should still be based here.

    153. Adrian B says:

      The problems for labour grow:

      It’s an open secret that relations between Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont and her deputy, Anas Sarwar, have taken a dip recently.
      The Sunday Herald revealed that MP Sarwar had been sidelined from his party’s referendum campaign; instead, he was put in charge of the Labour battlebus.
      The wider issue is who will lead Labour into the 2016 Holyrood election, regardless of the referendum result……..

    154. Liquid Lenny says:

      Rock that’s us had it in the referendum, Scotland wont have Embassies in Iran or North Korea. Could be a game changer.

      Re Iran, Im only joking, in a past life I worked in the Oil Industry for an American company, they could not deal with Iran so we did all the Iranian stuff, even putting guys out there on a semi permanent basis. All the Iranians I met were friendly and courteous.

      Just shows how much of a game the whole thing about Iran has been, its all about the oil, never underestimate what the US and its cohorts will get up to in order to control the countries that have it.

    155. manandboy says:

      Robert Graham says:
      17 June, 2014 at 10:52 pm
      this lot have to much to lose

      Legally, you have to own something before you can ‘lose’ it.

      Scottish Oil & Gas is Scotlands. It is controlled by Westminster because of the arrangements of the Union.

      The Oil & Gas do not ‘belong’ to England.

      If it did then there would have been no need to redraw the sea border from Berwick – on – Tweed so as to include 5 or 6 oil fields which are now in ‘English’ waters.

      A Yes vote carries the legal responsibilities written in the Edinburgh Agreement. Any attempt to renege would be political suicide for all three parties in BT.

      Robert, if you think about Independence for 6 months continually, you will become absolutely convinced and totally certain that self-determination for Scotland is going to happen via a Yes vote.

      Take my word for it.

    156. manandboy says:

      No change with the BBC on Scotland 2014 and STV’s Scotland Tonight.
      Both stations strictly biased in favour of No.

      Addressing their bias would be the same as trying to talk a Dundee supporter into becoming a United man.

      BBC & ITV – I can’t see a future in News Television for either of them.

    157. Rock says:


      “It’s just that the vituperative Greens that sometimes appear on here”

      They are not Greens but masquerading as Greens do drive a wedge between the SNP and the Greens on this blog, and I am sure elsewhere.

      The classical Divide and Rule tactic of the British Establishment. They are desperately trying to create divisions wherever they can – SNP-Greens, Catholics-Protestants, English-Scottish etc.

      The referendum is about Yes or No, nothing else.

      People can decide about the SNP, Greens etc. at the first election in an independent Scotland.

    158. Dr Ew says:

      @TJenny et al

      First of all can I apologise for the swearing. Unnecessary and generally out of character, unless for comic effect.

      I had a fairly positive evening canvassing (60/40 Yes, excluding DKs etc.) but it happens at the very last house I got caught by an incredibly exasperating couple who I gradually realised were time-wasting No voters (who maintained they were undecided). ‘There’s no information anywhere!’ they whined while I rhymed off websites, books and publications (including the White Paper). Anyway, I remained polite and disentangled myself after about 15 minutes.

      Between that and some work stuff annoying me I’m afraid I overreacted to your post. I appreciate there are trolls on here – I tried reasoning with Duggie on the basis of our supposed shared Greenery, seemingly to no avail – and my irritation with certain SNP bloggers over the recent Euro thing must have been bugging me more than I thought.

      In short I was tired and tetchy. Sorry for the spittin’ the dummy oot.

      Nighty night. x

    159. Rock says:

      Robert Graham,

      “there is no way this government will let us have the result we want a “YES” vote in september there is nothing this lot won’t do to make sure this ends in a close second place for yes been thinking about this for months now this lot have to much to lose”

      Totally agree. Democratically, Yes WILL win.

      And hopefully the Yes vote will be too massive to be rigged.

      Also, thanks to WoS, there will be a huge grassroots army of Yes supporters closely monitoring the process.

    160. TJenny says:

      Rock – agreed. 🙂

    161. Rock says:

      Liquid Lenny,

      “Rock that’s us had it in the referendum, Scotland wont have Embassies in Iran or North Korea. Could be a game changer.”

      Aye, that is about the only game changer that ‘Project Fear’ has left now which hasn’t been recyled a million times already!

    162. Rock says:

      “First they ignore you,

      then they laugh at you,

      then they come to fight you,

      and then you win.” (M.K. Gandhi)

      I think Gandhi missed one stage between the third and fourth:

      ‘then we laugh at them’

      “and then we win”.

      I think they have made themselves a laughing stock.

      But still never under estimate the British Establishment – why else has it taken us more than 300 years to regain our sold independence?

      (It took the Indians 200 years.)

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      And look at how much bigger India is, compared to Scotland, Rock. Once the ordinary punter got involved in the political debate, there was no stopping them. Now they are the world’s largest democracy.

    164. Thepnr says:


      ‘then we laugh at them’

      This is true, let’s all laugh at the MSM. Tubes.


      I’ve done much worse, don’t sweat it. 🙂

    165. frankieboy says:

      When they refer to ‘most people’ in surveys there should be a clarification note that ‘most people’ are never asked their opinion.

    166. donald anderson says:

      “We don’t know enough aboot it. Naebiddy telt us”.

      The Herald and Evening Times id neutral. Aye right.

    167. CameronB Brodie says:

      I reckon that Longshanker aka @ergasiophobe, is a wee bissum.

      And that’s what makes his* praise of the “phenomenon that is Wings Over Scotland” so curious. For someone who gives such a measured impression, this unrestrained eulogising over such a toxic, intolerant and potentially dangerous blog site, is as breathtaking as it is misguided.


      Article on homepage, sixth un-sponsored link down on search (sleekit+bawbag). Much more fun than Gaagle. I do love indyref synchronicity. 🙂

    168. CameronB Brodie says:

      In case folk missed it from that search.

    169. perhaps Westminster should put hs2 on hold till they have constructed a harbour for their submarines and nukes , might I suggest the Thames , it would certainly be a tourist hot spot

    170. Luigi says:

      And hopefully the Yes vote will be too massive to be rigged.

      That’s the key – any close result could (and would) be tampered with.

    171. John says:

      Lime Fruit Gums are my favourite. Have Better Together guaranteed a lime only bag in the event of a No vote?

    172. Haggis Hunter says:

      May be possible for them to interefere with postal votes, or use the names of dead people, or people that dont vote.
      I mind helping in a Glasgow by-election, one voter spat the dummy on his way out, apparrently he had voted already! Labour won that by-election with a reduced majority.
      Then there was the Mr Lyndsay Roy, missing ballot papers, dukery pokery behind the scenes.

    173. donald anderson says:

      Then there are polling clerks and other officials recruited by local Cooncil’s and the Labour Mafia. During the by elections in Scotland they bussed up party workers and Tame Union officials from the North of England, no doubt with generous expenses. They spent a lot of time inside the polling stations chatting with their Labour chums at the tables and taking notes.

      No doubt they will be parachuted in for the Referendum force with no inkling on the official expenses.

    174. Dez says:

      There are quite a few misleading spanners in the independence debate, which have been chucked in by the Better Together Bunch.

      RE: Currency Matters: Whether Scotland chooses its own Scottish pound (which is really the better choice in the long run), or agrees Sterling with the Powers that Be, Or that Wont Be after 2015, or agrees to join the Euro…providing Article 48 is a doddle, does not really matter one wee jot!

      RE: Borders Matters: Lets Quote Isle of Man, Channel Islands, all independent, all with their own pound and guess what…all part of the British Isles. Scotland is and will remain because of its geography part of the British Isles!

      What is important is having control over our own waters, our own seabed, our own economy (no one can predict the economics of the future in all entirety). It is shocking that some sitting on the fence hope for politicians to predict the future. Politicians at best can only offer propaganda!

      One thing for sure, Scotland will be free of the shackles, that prevent Scotland from moving forwards. It is so sad when Scots themselves cannot believe in themeselves and the Resources at their disposal. The Scots are a blessed Nation but Scot Resources which we need for Energy and Renewables are all under the Control of a Detached Westminister and The Crown Estate.

      One thing for sure, is that Westminister will grudge granting any extra powers to Scotland. Especially when the Union even 300 odd years ago, was sneakily implemented to ensure that Scotland would never be an Economic Threat to England or the English Crown.

      You can bet that it will be a tough and messy divorce, but, as they say “no pain, no gain”.

      Independence is a No-Brainer!

    175. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      “And look at how much bigger India is, compared to Scotland, Rock. Once the ordinary punter got involved in the political debate, there was no stopping them. Now they are the world’s largest democracy.”

      Yes, they just had a massive election in which more than 60% voted, that is 600 million people!

      The Yes grassroots campaign has been very successful in getting the ordinary punter involved in the political debate. Hopefully there will be no stopping them, well beyond the referendum.

      I would love to see the (previously) Labour voting masses overwhelmingly vote for Yes. They are very decent folks who have been repeatedly betrayed by the Labour vested interests.

      In fact Labour has done infinitely more harm to the ordinary people of Scotland than Thatcher or the Tories ever did or could.

    176. donald anderson says:

      How true that Labour did more harm than Thatcherism. There is nothing that “Maggie, Maggie, Maggie” did that Labour did not do worse.

      It was Tory Wedgie Benn, the old Viscount, that closed down the Scottish pits by building Torness and Hunterston switching to Nuclear power. It was the old Viscount that supported Labour Troops IN to Ireland in 1969 and signed the PTA, imprisonment and trial without Jury status, H Blocks and all the other anti human Rights offences that made them the worst offender in the EU. It was Labour who froze the workers wages and Labour who sent Troops IN to Glasgow in 1974 to drive bin lorries, ambulances and fire engines to scab on the workers. It was Labour who caused the current world crises by bombing Iraq. Do you want me to go on?

    177. Rock says:

      donald anderson,

      And not to forget that during 13 years of parliamentary majorities where they could have done a lot, Labour INCREASED the gap between rich and poor.

      It is Labour who wants to end universal free prescriptions in Scotland.

      It is ‘One Nation’ Labour which wants to ‘pool’ and ‘share’ resources so that Scotland has to become poorer to be on par with the poorer regions of England.

      It is Labour that is the wolf in sheep’s clothing – the Tories are wolves and everyone knows them.

      And the ones who have suffered most are those who have voted for Labour for decades in the hope of more fairness, equality and justice.

      A lot of those (former) Labour voters have now woken up and I hope a lot more do by 18th September.

    178. CameronB Brodie says:

      I reckon the Conservative and Labour, are the political tag-team pumping up the UK Austerity ratchet. This has been pretty evident over the past 50 years. I reckon they have taken things about as far as they could, so have now applied the UKIP ‘monkey wrench’ to apply that bit of extra leverage/force. Scare us all so we accept what the ‘big boys’ have to offer.

      I’m voting Yes instead. 🙂

    179. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      Labour is completely entrenched into the British Establishment and has been for a very long time.

      They have been scaring us with the Tories for decades but they are MUCH WORSE than the Tories.

      Who has been promoting UKIP? UKIP TV, another totally entrenched member of the British Establishment.

      THEY certainly are ‘Better Together’, but the vast majority of US are definitely not.

      We have a choice on 18th September to get out of this rotten to the core system once and for all.

      Let us hope a clear majority of us have woken up to vote Yes.

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was going to moan about Fabians, but I forgot.

    181. donald anderson says:

      Labour keeps saying they are proud of their credentials. Have they no shame, with theior Imperialist past? They stood and cheered in the House at the news of James Connolly’s execution strapped to a chair.

      They claim they invented the NHS. Not true. It was agreed by the War time coalition cabinet, with minor differences. Lord Beverage, the Welfare State Liberal architect, resigned in disgust because (Viscount Lord) Atlee did not go far enough. It was only agreed by the War Cabinet because the British working class soldier was not a s tall, healthy, fit, or as well educated as his German counterpart, who even received better war pensions.

      The first Welfare State in industrial history was instituted by Bismarck in Germany in the 1870’s, not for socialist, or liberal reasons but for the same reasons as the German National Socialist Workers Party. Bismarck rounded up thousands of Socialists and executed many. Incidentally, Karl Liebknecht, faced the firing squad singing “A Man’s a Man for a’ that”.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:


    183. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fabian Society

    184. CameronB Brodie says:

      Milner’s Kindergarten

    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      Notable members included Lionel Curtis, Leopold Charles Maurice Stennett Amery, Robert H Brand (1st Baron Brand), Adam D. Marris (Lazards), John Buchan (1st Baron Tweedsmuir), and a guy who’s name I can’t remember though he is credited with naming the Welfare State.

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