From the office of Ed Miliband
(Real) email correspondence forwarded by an alert reader:
From: HARTY, Sam
Sent: 21 October 2014 16:58
To: MILIBAND, Ed
Subject: Official Copy of VowDear Ed
Mr Clarke has a constituent who would like a formal copy of the Vow that was made prior to the Scottish Referendum.
Is it possible for your office to provide Tom with a copy for his constituent?
Thanking you in anticipation of your co-operation.
Regards
Sam
On behalf of
TOM CLARKE MP
And here’s the response:
From: WILLIAMS, Angie
Sent: 28 October 2014 11:19
To: HARTY, Sam
Subject: RE: Official Copy of VowHi Sam,
There is no official document, it was something that the Daily Record mocked up. My best suggestion would be to send them the attached. We won’t be producing anything more official.
Hope this helps.
Angie
Glad to have cleared that one up for the record, then – “The Vow” was solely a confection of the newspaper, who therefore bear the responsibility for it. If and when the time comes, let’s all remember who we’re holding to account.
Dirty. Lying. Bastards.
The sooner they die the better! Scotland’s champion my….
We all knew the Vow was a fraud and a stitch up. Lying bastards plumb the depths with this “revelation”.
The SNP must batter them with this at every opportunity. Scum.
SHOCKING, ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING.
“VOW? WHAT VOW”
Scotland has been conned by the Daily Record.
This is not a joke then – confection – I hope each and every one of those Naes choke on that huge gob-stopper they swallowed – b**tards
The pro-Indy news gets better by the day, unbelievable stuff.
One typo in the reply to Sam, “Something that the Daily Record MOCKED up”
It should read F*CKED up…
The Record, like their political masters are in deep doo doo.
whoops!
A circulation in freefall already is likely to plummet even faster now.
Pffft. Another craven wriggle from Labour. If he thinks this lets them all off the hook he’s delusional.
Is anyone here shocked…genuinely shocked…REALLY?
Daily Record/British Labour/ BBC Better Together / Jimmy Saville, all one rotten corrupt morally bankrupt organisation
Isnt there some Ombusman or PCC this coudl be referred to?
It clearly states at the top
“Westminster’s 3 Party Leaders SIGN”
If thats acceptable then you could use any verb (nasty or nice) and get away with it.
i note the use of “in their own words” too…walofs!
Goodbye Daily Record and good riddance, you have just signed your own death warrant.
“Is anyone here shocked…genuinely shocked…REALLY?”
No, of course not. It’s just nice to have it officially confirmed.
Aye, but the three stooges didn’t move quickly to disown it, did they?
It was all part of a plan to get all the right buzz words and ideas in front of the electorate. Drip fed from NO politicians, but really pushed home by the MSM. They know Devo Max/Home Rule/FFA was very popular and literally a vote winner.
The Daily Record and others, including the BBC, carried out ‘their duty’ to mislead voters in a concerted and coordinated manner. And it worked!
The most devious aspect of it all is that they while giving a definite clear message, there was always enough wriggle room to allow the NaeSayers to backtrack from 19th onwards.
Scotland was duped, well about 10-15% of voters, were duped by these actions alone. And heaven knows how many others were duped by the fearmongering and lies prior to ‘Project Promises’.
Shame the “honourable” Mr Miliband didn’t point out to voters that he never signed any vow and that we should be aware of this going into the polling booths. Honour doesn’t exist in Westminster any more.
More lies
7/5/15 A significant date
As a newsagent I can tell you that the daily record fudges its sales figures regularly. It often offers a promotion whereby customers get 55p off their shopping if they purchase the record, which itself costs 55p. For all purposes this means the record is free, however we are all under strict instruction not to refer to it as free. Since we are expected to reach certain quotas everyone ignores these orders in order to be less confusing, but since the record can say that they “sold” the paper, at the end of the year they will proclaim themselves to be Scotland’s 2nd most popular newspaper, even though a vast number of those copies were in fact given away for nothing. Unsurprisingly the daily mail regularly runs the same promotion as well. This promotion is mostly operated to be able to falsely claim that their publications are more popular than they actually are.
strangely I still only see the free 1ltr of milk, it doesn’t matter that the record made it up they signed it and didn’t say anything against it, so are saying you let a leading scottish publish lie in your Name Ed ? isn’t that enough for re-vote?
And to all those who fed the gullible fwits – may you all rot in hell – as my Great Auntie Mary would have said – you would ‘put tits on a he-weasel’ b**stards
I think a letter to the Press Council would be in order and a submission to whatever, if any, enquiry is going on at the moment into press behaviour?
That and a mass picket on the doorsteps of the DR printing building.
Plus a submission to Lord Smithy and a crowd fund to fund a judicial review of the Referendum result?
daily politics lordy mcconnell westminster did,nt interfear in my time as FM, naw no much Jack jist £1.5bl times worth.
Of course it was a fraud. The whole BT campaign was a fraud and anyone who thought this document really existed is a gullible idiot.
Oh wait a minute!!! that would mean that half the population are gullible idiots – oops.
Next questions – whose policy was it? Who proposed it? Who approached whom about it? Did Miliband, Cameron and Nick Clegg’s Face actually sign anything? Who formulated the wording? Why are you all such a bunch of lying toerags?
PDF House of Commons Standard Note SN/PC/06987 updated 23rd September 2014 author Hazel Armstrong and Paul Bower Parliament and Constitution Centre is the official “Vow” which the Labour Party were …. err party to!
I have a copy on my PC but no idea how to upload sorry.
Grounds to have the outcome declared void? A last-minute promise that turned out to be a newspaper’s lie is surely gross deception.
Whatever prompts indyref2, most of the No camp’s lies are out in the open now. If we still go and vote No again then we’ll truly deserve to be shat on by every Unionist in the country.
Sam Harty ha ha ha ( big bag of salt+stack of bibles)Tom Clarke’s arse wipe,better asking the signators direct otherwise a waste of your time.
I agree @Rev Stu, it’s nice to have it confirmed in an anti-climax kinda way, but this merely adds to my already “beyond and cannot get any more astonished” status…
Lord Smith…Weir Group….fracking.
MP’s milking it at WM etc etc
Slab leader in full knowledge of Slab approach to bedroom tax being morally corrupt.
The tentacles of corruption are everywhere (including that of the Daily Rag) and it’s just staggering that more of what is actually going on is not becoming shouted more loudly.
More importantly, why are we not hearing acknowledgment from many more than the infamous yes voting ‘45’.
Are we really going to have to wait until the GE2015 until disillusioned members of the ‘55’ pipe up to what is going on around them?
I don’t mean to put a downer on matters…I’m just bloody angry!!
(written in absolute non-naïve terms)
We all knew it to be a fraud, but that some sort of extra powers would be offered last minute to entice a No vote, no matter how many times Westminster dragoons – maybe ‘goons – denied any new powers to Scotland.
Will the rest of the press and media demand answers from the Record’s editor for the bare-faced scam on a nation?
Or will the Record demand answers of Cameron, Miliband and Clegg as to why they allowed that front page published without a denial?
On the other hand, will 2 million individual voters ask themselves, how the hell could I be so bloody gullible?
Fine piece of journalism by all concerned (yet again)
55% of Scots – clear mugs !!!!
MScotM collective all in this slim ridden sewer together.
The oustside world must look at this place, shake their heads and utter something along the lines of bloody idiots.
I hear from friends the new Irish nickname for us Scots is ‘bottlers’; pretty well deserved really if some are still regularly ‘taken in’ by the pish of the Daily Rubbish
Holy sh1t, this is extraordinary for the Daily Record and the three leaders. They didn’t sign anything. The whole thing was ‘mocked up by the Daily Record’.
I mean, I knew they held the Scottish electorate in contempt…but not quite so brazenly as this.
A copy of the “Vow” should be nailed to the door of every Red, Blue and Yellow Tory office in Scotland. Heck, let’s just run up thousands of copies and post them everywhere.
We ain’t going to let this go.
So now we have confirmation, the Daily Record made it up.
That paper cannot die a death soon enough. They utterly betrayed the trust of the Scottish people.
In that case shouldnt there be another immediate referendum?
Is it lawful to “allow your signature to be used in this very public way, knowing that it is a deliberate deception?
If it is, then the law stinks.
“Is anyone here shocked…genuinely shocked…REALLY?”
Nah, but it worked on the gullible and hard of thinking.
As Stu said: “If and when the time comes, let’s all remember who we’re holding to account.”
Let’s all work that wee bit harder to hurt their share value by making sure their circulation goes into freefall.
Who is Angie Williams?
Anyone who believed them want’s their heid looking at..Gordon Brown had no jurisdiction to promise anything nor Milliband. Labour are finished full stop.I live in Norfolk and I can asure you the Tories are in for a rude awakening..I was talking to my friend and he couldn’t believe my country voted no he’s voting UKIP and before you all jump down my throat his wife is Indian and she’s voting UKIP too..he said to me sadly we don’t have as good a choice as your countrymen…he said the big two are useless Labour and the Banks brought the country to its knees..the Tories only care about London you’ve got to wait 3-4 weeks for a doctors appointment…you can’t rent privately the immigrants are paying over the odds for housing but having twelve of them in the house so young married couples who can’t afford to buy can’t afford to rent either I have loads of immigrant friends who are being paid a pittance and charged over the odds for housing..so my friends and countrymen remember you reap what you sow!!!
Something for the new Independent Press Standards Organisation to get its avowed teeth into, perhaps?
And that right there is official confirmation to what we all already suspected.
It also explains why Liberal Democrat MP’s such as Michael Moore and emperor ming are very deliberately delaying any responses to requests for copies of the original document.
We should all continue to badger our MP’s – well those of us who have bothered to write and ask – until they give their replies.
I wonder if this falls into the remit of the press complaints commission?
As some have already suggested, have they also broken the law when they broke the Edinburgh agreement?
Read the actual Record article, and you will see it is indeed an outright lie. I refer of course to the statement in the top right hand corner, where it states the three leaders “have signed”. If they signed something, then it must exist.
did 450,000 voters *really* change their mind because of a newspaper front cover?
It’s admirable that the YES campaign played by the book and made an honourable bid for Scottish votes – but clearly, it turns out that that doesn’t win referenda. I heard it said many times that this would have been the first independence movement that had not spilt any blood.
Whilst I would never advocate violence; the gloves have to come off, the Scottish public are only (after the event) waking up to what they voted for. We can’t run all unionist’s out of town, after all they rightfully believed in their cause – but what we can do is highlight those that made personal gain from dishonestly backing the unionist cause with last-minute scare-story press statements.
We have to accept that the YES campaign was strong in ambition and honour, but too weak in landing the blows needed for the change to independence. It should have been able to counter a daily newspaper with a nonsense front page like this.
I actually thought this was common knowledge anyway.
Scotland’s Champion…
… lying two faced pieces of ordure.
The mock chasing the leaders bullshit and holding them to a vow they never made post the referendum takes the fucking biscuit for shear brass neck. Mind you, we never did hear much in the way of complaint from those leaders when the Record made their vow for them.
FFS!
David Mooney 12.50
“Of course it was a fraud. The whole BT campaign was a fraud and anyone who thought this document really existed is a gullible idiot.
Oh wait a minute!!! that would mean that half the population are gullible idiots – oops.”
What’s with the “oops”?
Half of the population ARE gullible idiots, of one sort or another, either thick, stupid and poor or ignorant and selfish middle class.
That is what we have to contend with and attempt to change in whatever most effective way we can.
The moment the squalid and contemptible ‘Scottish Labour’ party tells us who their new Wizard of Oz is this little gem needs to appear, en masse, everywhere that they still have voting support. We have to cut this cancer of a party out of the body politic of our country once and for all.
Since the dark days of the Indy Ref’s immediate aftermath, I’ve had to spend several weeks working abroad, with only intermittent internet access. This has been followed by a difficult spell in hospital unable to operate my laptop at all. So I have been deprived of Wingy Things and the Wings Community for far too long.
Am delighted to be venturing back to discover that not only is the Yes movement flourishing and buoyant – with big smiles on their faces – but that the Rev Stu is back in action, razor-sharp and bang on the money as ever!
Great scoop for you, Stu. Have posted and shared.
This has to be sent to the PCC. Probably another stitched up group but it has to be exposed.
If they faked the whole thing surely that is fraud cos of the ‘signatures’
Was at a meet with the local WfI group, we are trying to get organised for the GE and met a women there who said her hubby tried to buy up all of the DRs in his area on vow day so folk wouldn’t see them and be fooled.
One of the newsagents that knew him, asked what he was doing and then said don’t be daft I’ll remove them all from sale.
The whole media thing was insidious, I was at the Docs today and read an old Women’s Own mag – they had an article with JK and her £1m donation getting ‘trolled’ and also with proud Scot Kay(e)- obviously they couldn’t find a Yes woman
“The Vow” …more a newspaper concoction than reality?
Why were signatures used on the document though?
Surely technically fraudulent effecting the referendum result yes or no
This has to be sent to the PCC. Probably another stitched up group but it has to be exposed.
If they faked the whole thing surely that is fraud cos of the ‘signatures’
Was at a meet with the local WfI group, we are trying to get organised for the GE and met a women there who said her hubby tried to buy up all of the DRs in his area on vow day so folk wouldn’t see them and be fooled.
One of the newsagents that knew him, asked what he was doing and then said don’t be daft I’ll remove them all from sale.
The whole media thing was insidious, I was at the Docs today and read an old Women’s Own mag – they had an article with JK and her £1m donation getting ‘trolled’ and also with proud Scot Kay(e)- obviously they couldn’t find. a Yes woman
“The Vow” isn’t worth the paper it wasn’t written on.
@ticktock
You can state “ignorant and selfish middle class”
But you are very wrong to place “stupid and poor” in the same breath.
The liars lied again. There is no vow.
Well folks if you want submit something with teeth to the Smith Commission then here it is.
Also, next time their is demo about media bias then it should be outside the Daily Record office’s in Glasgow.
As Desimond says, it clearly states at the top that the three leaders SIGNED this,in their OWN words to boot.
If they’re now saying it had nothing to do with them,then surely some offence has been committed here. Not simply good enough to say a big boy done it and ran away !
@ Mae Carson and others
PDF file can be read/downloaded here:
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06987/scotland-devolution-proposals
I haven’t yet met a single No voter who voted No on the basis of ‘the vow’. The ones I’ve met (not many, admittedly) voted No through ignorance, self-interest or a conservative dread of change.
If any No voter voted that way on the basis of the vow then words do not exist to describe adequately how gullible they are.
The Press Complaints Commission was closed down on 8th September 2014.
This is the new body for complaints:
https://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/index.html
Just in: Scottish Electorate Robbed by Snails at a Bus Stop. “It all happened so fast”, said a Daily Record reader.
Utter, utter scum. The sooner they die the better.
Kenny says:
“whose policy was it? Who proposed it? Who approached whom about it?”
Cameron was confident the Union was safe, until the week ending the 5th September when suddenly it was under real threat.
I am convinced it was all a preprepared plan. Over the weekend of the 6-7th the last ditch strategy was unleased. 8th it began with Brown on every TV channel. Then for 10 days in a concerted effort they all pushed promises, but in a subtle woolly deniable style. It was all intentional, planned and coordinated. IMHO, that DR Vow was not a last minute lash up, it was part of a very devious well thought out and prepared plan to undermine the democratic process.
The three stooges were not bystanders, they were part of the conspiracy. But, deniably, of course.
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06987.pdf is the amended paper you seek.
Did anyone sign Gordon Brown’s petition for the Daily Record to keep it’s vow.
You’ve got to love it that it says, “Now voters can make an informed choice.”
Fabricating a document purporting to be signed by the PM is at least fraud – and quite possibly treason?
You believed in the vow? There was no vow.
Now you believe in the Smith Commission? I’m sure it’ll turn out this is a fraud, too.
No-oe don’t let the Westminster Government try and say they don’t have to honour this because it was made up by their lackies The Daily Record.. This was discussed massively in front of my eyes they made a vow and they are going to stick to it I am not imagining it, I heard and saw the declarations. It may not have been written and signed like that, that may have been a made up visual and one of the many lies and manipulations for the No campaign by the newspaper, but it was definately declared in public as much as a declaration in court only this time with millions of witnesses
Remember Remember the 18th of September.
LABOUR TREASON AND PLOT
@Sean Lewis that is not a valid ref num.
One of the only pleasures I have had since the 19th of September is picking up the Sunday Herald every week and seeing a huge stack of these rags towering next to it, long may it continue…
Although we knew this Vow to be a pack of lies, I have today written to Mssrs Cameron, Milliband and Clegg asking them to confirm whether they actually “signed” anything, and if not will they be taking the Daily Recod to task. Eagerly await the responses.
As much as it pains me to say, the only conclusion I can come to with Scotland’s whole sorry affair is, clearly they were right, we are too stupid.
AuldA says:
You believed in the vow? There was no vow.
Now you believe in the Smith Commission? I’m sure it’ll turn out this is a fraud, too
Bang on.
All those who sent in their submissions now look completely foolish.
We should be now putting pressure on the SNP and the Greens to withdraw in protest from the Smith Commission. You tear up the Edinburgh Agreement because cannot deal with liars and bargain with fraudsters.
This is brilliant! What a scoop! Quick, send it to the Daily Rec-
Obviously, most YES voters thought it was BS, but plenty of their traditional labour voting readers were deceived.
If they had any backbone, this would be the Records Vowgate.
An equivalent to the Sun boycott in Liverpool, after the paper accused Liverpool fans of pickpocketing and pissing on the dead at Hillsborough.
Why would ‘real’ Scots buy a paper that openly lied to them?
“Westminster’s three party leaders SIGN A HISTORIC JOINT PROMISE..”
Well to tell you the truth I actually thought
There was an actual document! !!!! Not the one
With there mugs on it . But non the less an actual document. So is there no such document at all ?????? If this is the case then the dreary record should find it’s self in a court
Of law. This can’t be right surly !!!!!!
The Record as scummy and crap a paper it is. Just reading their tribute to Lamont, you’d think she was Rosa Mandella Abraham Parks rolled in to one. They have an agenda. We should all know now that papers aren’t neutral. The journos all admit this whenever pressed.
What is more frustrating is, the people of Scotland. Not a majority, but a good number of them – do absolutely no research in to anything. Yet still sit and snipe on the sidelines. If you thought long and hard and voted no, I still think it was a wrong decision, but fair dues, you pondered over it.
It’s the “what about ma pension”, “it winnae work”, and “it’s no broken” etc alongside the people who just believe BBC Scotland, the Record and so on.
I’m not getting at the older people as its almost a cultural aspect, but younger people.
There really must be some way that this can be used to challenge the Referendum result, either to the EC or the High Court in Edinburgh.
This was and is electoral fraud.
We need Lallans Peat Worrier to speak to his Beagle friends.
Originally they had said that they could see no grounds for a Judicial Review but, does this confirmation tip the balance?
I have opened a bottle of Anger Management wine.
This makes you realise just how much democracy, truth and integrity have gone down the toilet in this country. I can see how revolutions start.
The thing that pisses me off most is the brazenness of the reply to Tom Clarkes assistant.
Hi Sam,
There is no official document, it was something that the Daily Record mocked up. My best suggestion would be to send them the attached. We won’t be producing anything more official.
What is Angie saying? It was just a con for the stupid Jocks, we had a referendum to win and could tell them any kind of bullshit and they’d swallow it!
Think angie might be looking for a new position. Leader of SLAB might just be right up her street, she certainly seems qualified. Thick as shit.
Falsifying a document is a crime isn’t it? Forgery?
@ Quinie frae Angus, Nice to see your back amoungst us,well catch up soon xxx fae many Wingers.
When you consider where Scottish Labour came from, what it stood for and hoped to accomplish, how and when did it transmogrify into the hideously grotesque, bloated entity it is now?
Like some handsome noble beast emaciated by parasites.
The free milk was Murphy’s idea.
Make your complaints here;
<i)The Daily Record aim to correct errors and clear up confusion as soon as possible.
Readers can phone 0141 309 3000, fax 0141 309 3645, email readerseditor@dailyrecord.co.uk or write to The Readers Editor, One Central Quay, Glasgow, G3 8DA in the first instance.
or
The Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) is the independent regulator of the newspaper and magazine industry.
https://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/_apps/complaint1.html
The more the merrier.
“Forgery” = The creation of a false written document or alteration of a genuine one, with the intent to defraud.
I had a similar response from Brian Donohoe. They can only send links to the DR’s front page.
They aren’t even ashamed or apologetic for the farce that is the DR. They simply imply “Ah, weel, shame aboot the con folks. You lost though!”
Sam Harty X union convener of Imperial Steel works Airdrie,another greasy pole climber.
Clause 1 Accuracy
i) The Press must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information, including pictures.
ii) A significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion once recognised must be corrected, promptly and with due prominence, and – where appropriate – an apology published. In cases involving the Regulator, prominence should be agreed with the Regulator in advance.
iii) The Press, whilst free to be partisan, must distinguish clearly between comment, conjecture and fact.
source: IPSO (Editors’ Code Of Practice).
http://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/cop.html
Aclass action law suit is in order for the fraudulent use of the leaders signatures and ask them if they agreed with the use of their signatures and we can add thier names to the class action!
“Westminster’s three party leaders…sign a historic joint promise which…”
sign (verb) – to write your name, usually on a written or printed document, to show that you agree with its contents or have written or created it yourself
That’s very clear in the Daily Record’s lead comment on the front page.
Grounds for a libel case perhaps ??
Nice of them to include Kenyon Wright’s comment too, if only DR readers had paid more attention to him…
That’s my complaint submitted to IPSO.
It’s all very well going on about this, BUT WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.?????? Surly tell results of the referendum is a farce? ??? People voted on this information being a fact,
When in fact it was fake.!!!!!!!!
Alex Clark says:
28 October, 2014 at 1:15 pm
“The Vow” isn’t worth the paper it wasn’t written on.
nice
I can recall seeing the front cover of the Daily Record sporting the ‘Vow’ on the BBC News website.
If it is the case that the vow is fabricated and given the wide spread coverage of the vow by the media, that would be grounds for declaring the outcome of the referendum not safe.
“Which in their own words will guarantee more powers devolved to Scotland and protect the NHS if we vote NO” NOW VOTERS CAN MAKE AN INFORMED CHOICE.
So why this giant fraud from the Record alone? eg For years Prof Curtice at What Scotland Thinks polling of polls gave a NO win over and over. Not one poll ever showed a Yes win and yet this Daily Record fraud was rammed in our faces by just that one UKOK propaganda machine.
I blame the postal vote “sampling” con but can’t as this was very No too apparently. Nothing makes sense in Scotland now, as in this from
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/10/28/they-did-win-didnt-they/
With Scottish sub-samples in the twelve Populus polls conducted since the referendum finding the following support (combined sample size 1,532, fieldwork conducted 19/9-26/10): SNP – 37% (+17%) Lab – 28% (-14%), that’s some rout.
And the state expects our compliance?
In order to overcome normalcy bias, an individual must challenge their cognitive dissonance, or have it challenged by others. This is unlikely in a media environment that is solidly in support of maintaining the dissonance.
I think this is what NS was alluding to, with regards encouraging social media.
I’m not even shocked. However, I’m very interested where the source came from for this?
If there was never anything signed by the leaders of the London parties, would it be fair to say that the Scottish public have been mislead and they really do not have to give Scotland anything.
@BtP:
You won’t be able to sue whomever on the ground of the cover only. The cover document is evidently a sham. The only thing you can point out is the use of the word ‘sign’ instead, for example, of ‘agree on’. But it would then have to be backed by further affirmations in the article itself that some paper had actually been signed.
But even then, would it be the first time a newspaper brazenly announces something that does not exist?
No doubt, it will turn out that senior management at the DR are completely clean. The editors knew nothing about “The Vow” , don’t you know? Why, it was only an unauthorised junior hack at the DR office, acting completely alone and unbeknown to the editors. The DR would like to assure everyone that this naughty person has since been severely reprimanded and is now sporting a slightly sore wrist.
This is the actual vow. From sn06987
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06987.pdf
2.1 Three-party pledge of new powers
On 16 June 2014, the leaders of the Scottish Conservative, Scottish Labour and Scottish
Liberal Democrat parties issued a joint statement:
Power lies with the Scottish people and we believe it is for the Scottish people
to decide how we are governed.
We believe that the pooling and sharing of resources across the United
Kingdom is to Scotland’s benefit in a partnership of four nations in which
distinct national identities can flourish and be celebrated.
We believe that Scotland and the United Kingdom have been strengthened
since the advent of devolution.
We support a strong Scottish Parliament in a strong United Kingdom and we
support the further strengthening of the Parliament’s powers. The three parties
delivered more powers for Holyrood through the Calman Commission which
resulted in the Scotland Act 2012.
We now pledge to strengthen further the powers of the Scottish Parliament, in
particular in the areas of fiscal responsibility and social security. We believe
that Scotland should have a stronger Scottish Parliament while retaining full
representation for Scotland at Westminster. Our common agenda can bring
people together from all of Scotland, from civic society and every community.
The Scottish Labour Party, the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party and
the Scottish Liberal Democrats have each produced our own visions of the new
powers which the Scottish Parliament needs.
We shall put those visions before the Scottish people at the next general
election and all three parties guarantee to start delivering more powers for the
Scottish Parliament as swiftly as possible in 2015.
Our common endeavour will deliver a stronger Scottish Parliament in a
stronger United Kingdom.
3
On 5 August 2014 the UK Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Labour parties issued a
combined declaration echoing the 16 June statement.4 This was issued as a press statement
on the day of the first televised leaders’ debate between Alex Salmond, First Minister, and
Alistair Darling, Better Together, and achieved widespread coverage in the UK press5
.
Ta ta at last daily liar, ry & get an exclusive with Sarah Kyak before you go
Surely this can’t be true?? I am absolutely RAGING at this. How the hell can they get away with this and the politicians using it to their advantage??? OMG…
Who owns the Daily Record?
Let’s all ask Scotland Tonight to get the Editor on to explain – tonight what’s going on.
AuldA
Action Directe, mon brave?
re the Daily Record piece:
Under the top-right-hand corner statement, it says see page 4&5.
I don’t have a copy of the paper.
What does it infer on those pages? Is it technically ‘the fine print’?
The way the page is worded in total is definately misleading, but on another technical point, the words “The Vow’ could be attributed only to the DR and not the leaders.
Gordon Brown intimated several times before the referendum that cross-party meeting (or meetings) had taken place and assurances were given. (He complains about the EVEL in relation to this).
If such cross-party assurances were given prior to the referendum for promise of further powers (whatever they may be), is there a record of these meetings?
Was some sort of framework for powers mocked up there?
Was it signed? If so, who by?
It would be worth investigating this line of enquiry to see what was agreed, in writing, according to Brown’s statements. No point asking for a copy of “the Vow”, ask for a copy of any signed agreements. If they don’t exist, Brown’s either a liar, or nothing was agreed on paper – which I find unlikely.
It may be the DR who called it a Vow, and therefore it doesn’t exist as such, but there must be something on paper that does.
Bet you anything you like this “Angie Williams” gets sacked or demoted and we’ll be given some sort of mass verbal reassurances that ‘the Vow’ does still exist (or to put it in the deceitful language they will use – still stands).
Remember, the Press have absolutely no obligation to be neutral but they are bound by supposedly strict codes of practice.
The DR appears to have given a serious two-fingered salute to those codes – not only with that article and its content but also in the way they put it across to the public.
Misleading and deceitful doesn’t even begin to cover it.
https://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/
I don’t remember anybody from the better together popular front publicly complaining at the time of publishing,therefore the main parties and their various wings didn’t disavow the vow at the time.
Rather,they actually agreed and ran with it, as Mr Brown took centre stage on all channels and Mr Darling disappeared from view at the most crucial time for bt.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/jim-murphy-is-scottish-labours-only-hope/
Interesting wee read for Wingers , insight into the opposition’s thinking!
@ Calgacus
The Daily Mirror and thus Triniy Mirror Group but after that that I cannae be ersed.
It would be interesting to know what effect, if any, the ‘Vow’ had. Cue a new poll, Rev?
This is forgery and fraud, plain and simple. Also need to look into the roles of the three stooges who presumably acquiesced in allowing their signatures to be appended to it. IPSO enquiry is a must.
It also strikes me that it would make a fantastic feature for a good investigative journalist to do on the BBC, but maybe I just need to take my medication.
It will make fantastic ammunition to use against the unionists in ’14 and ’15.
Anyway, the sooner that lying, deceitful trash ceases to befoul our newsstands the better. And as for the complicity of CamMiliClegg…7.5.15 tick tock tick tock
Scottish Parliament
Smith Commission Debate
250pm
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/BusinessBulletin/82872.aspx
To paraphrase the Great Gonzo (Sorry, JM OBE from the Herald)
Standard Note: SN/PC/06987 from the H of C Library records:
“On Tuesday 16 September the leaders of the UK political parties issued a joint signed
statement of undertakings, which was published in the Daily Record, under the
headline, “The Vow”.”
Surely something which has been “issued” and “signed” must actually exist? Oh wait… Lying barstewards at work again.
Rev as said by John King 1.59. Class Action on behalf of All Wingers,WOS as a Registered Group with the Electorial Commission have been disenfranchised by Fraud & Sue for all WOS costs,any legal eagles comments ? .
Has there ever been a more corrupt referendum vote anywhere in the history of the world.
Just made my complaint, who knows? still, at least if we all do it, it’s bound to annoy somebody
o/t My wife has just got her “Nicola on Tour” T-Shirt
Absolute Belter…
@Callum
“did 450,000 voters *really* change their mind because of a newspaper front cover?”
Nope. The Record front page was just the very visible face of a massive, coordinated and desperate propaganda effort by the media and No campaign. There was wall to wall 24/7 coverage of the VOW, Brown and all the rest of the talk of more powers blasted across the TV and papers. All claims of more powers were treated as the absolute truth by the media. You would have to have been living on the moon to have missed the fact that all the parties and the media were furiously talking up more powers in the final most vital days of the campaign. The campaign was utterly dominated by the claims for more powers in those final days. Doesn’t matter what the Yes campaign wanted to talk about at that point. The media and No made certain there was only one subject on the TV radio and newspapers and it was promises of more powers if there was a No.
Just jumping in here, so someone else might have suggested this already.
How about crowdfunding full page ad with this article in the Sun?
Would that get up the Wrecord’s nose?
O/T Did anyone else get this from 38 degrees?
“Lord Smith has said he wants to hear from the public on his devolution proposal for the Smith Commission. [1] But he’s refusing to meet with ordinary people.
While Lord Smith heads around the country to meet businesses and charities, his team have made it clear he won’t make any time for public meetings. It looks like he might be picking and choosing who he hears from – making it easier to ignore the thoughts of real people.
Lord Smith is meeting businesses today in Inverness. It could be one of his last meetings before the consultation on devolution closes. [2] Can you invite him to a public meeting as well? If hundreds of us email him, we can show him that the public’s views need to be front and centre.
Click here to invite Lord Smith to meet with 38 Degrees members:
https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/ask-lord-smith
Politicians and the government were quick off the mark to have their say on devolution. Now Lord Smith claims he’s touring Scotland to listen to what ordinary people want – but at the moment he’s passing up the opportunity to meet with hundreds of passionate members of the public.
38 Degrees members voted to hold meetings with Lord Smith and to feed into the Smith Commission public consultation. [3] The office team asked for a public meeting with Smith, but were told there wasn’t enough time.
Instead, his team have cherry picked meetings with representatives from trade unions, charities and business. It’s going to be hard for Lord Smith to come up with a plan that works for ordinary Scottish people if he hasn’t spoken to any of them.
Thousands of us have already emailed the Smith Commission with our views on devolution. In fact, 38 Degrees members make up two thirds of all responses. But right now, Lord Smith is making it clear that this is where it ends. Let’s make sure it’s not.
Please click here to invite Lord Smith to meet real people:”
I have left out the hyperlink…
Complain to the IPSO ( https://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/ ). I am sure that this would fall under the remit of impartiality and campaigning. However, I am sure that they would have known if they would be breaking rules.
This story needs to go global. Please can someone with the necessary expertise get it out there?
reading a bit more of sn06987 we have the clarification of the vow from Alistair Darling.
Alistair Darling, Chair of the Better Together Campaign, clarified that:
no new powers would be put on the table beyond those already announced by
the three main Westminster parties earlier this year.
The additional powers coming to the Scottish Parliament were announced by
the party leaders, north and south of the border, some time ago.
Which mean of course we’re getting nothing. Roll up roll up for the Smith Commission Circus
@Callum
`It should have been able to counter a daily newspaper with a nonsense front page like this.`
This was done on the Tuesday two days before the Referendum ,on what platform would the Yes campaign be able to counter the Vow,we had no access to Television,Radio,Newspapers we had the internet but this was not aimed at the voters that use the internet.
This is precisely why we need to have IndyRef2 sooner (much sooner) rather than later while the full-on exposure of the Unionist lies remain reasonably fresh in voters’ minds. We simply cannot wait 35 years and say “Wait a minute–don’t believe a word they say–remember Alec Douglas-Home.” Strike when the iron’s hot, so to speak. I am not advocating next week or month btw, just when the first scenario presents itself for such a second vote to be legitimate and backed by the people of Scotland.
@Ronnie Anderson
Thank you Ronnie, I have missed you all! Won’t be able to make it on 22nd but hope to be at the next one.
@ X-Sticks
What a splendid idea!
Nicola speaking now in Hollyrood parliament tv
Dear Readers,
The Referendum – Was it a fair contest?
If you have time please read again the Edinburgh Agreement.
Failing that, then please scan through what I have extracted from the EA below. Please pay attention to the bold text (mine).
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/About/Government/concordats/Referendum-on-independence
The governments are agreed that the referendum should:
have a clear legal base
be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament
be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, governments and people
deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect
The governments are agreed that the referendum should meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety
16.Both governments agree that the principles underpinning the existing framework for referendums held under Acts of the UK Parliament – which aim to guarantee fairness – should apply to the Scottish independence referendum.
21.The governments agree that it will be important to ensure that
broadcast coverage of the Referendum is impartial.
Broadcasters, Ofcom and the Electoral Commission will discuss the best way to achieve this.
29.It is customary for there to be a period before elections in the UK,
during which Ministers and other public bodies refrain from publishing material
that would have a bearing on the election. Section 125 of PPERA sets out the
restrictions that apply to Ministers and public bodies in the 28 days preceding referendums held under that Act
Both governments recognise the importance
of respecting the 28-day period prior to a referendum,
in the same way that
both governments already respect each other’s pre-election period for
Parliamentary elections. The Scottish Government will set out details of
restricted behaviour for Scottish Ministers and devolved public bodies in the
Referendum Bill to be introduced into the Scottish Parliament. These details
will be based on the restrictions set out in PPERA. The UK Government has
committed to act according to the same PPERA-based rules during the
28-day period.
30. The United Kingdom and Scottish Governments are committed,
through the Memorandum of Understanding between them and others,4
to
working together on matters of mutual interest and to the principles of good
communication and mutual respect. The two governments have reached this
agreement in that spirit. They look forward to a referendum that is legal and
fair producing a decisive and respected outcome. The two governments are
committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the
outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of
the rest of the United Kingdom.
Thank you readers. Now answer this question:-
With hindsight, and having read through the above,
do you think the Referendum was fair.
Have just read some comments, and thanks to @Holiday Pay Claims for the heads up about the 5 August Joint Declaration.
I couldn’t find any document online, but plenty of references to it reported in the Press – of this ilk (from Sunday Post):
“The three parties have already set out their own proposals for enhancing devolution, and Mr Cameron, Labour leader Ed Miliband and Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg have now all signed a joint declaration which states: “We support a strong Scottish Parliament in a strong United Kingdom and we support the further strengthening of the Parliament’s powers.”
The three go on to promise to “strengthen further the powers of the Scottish Parliament, in particular in the areas of fiscal responsibility and social security”.
The declaration continues: “etc etc.
So as it says it is a signed declaration, it must exist. Is it possibly to get a copy of this?
Iain Gray’s Subway Lament – Virtual high five.
@Quinie frae Angus Awe wont be here for the 22nd & a great night in the YES Bar & meeting up with people in the wider Indy movement.
Scot Finlayson
The ‘vow’ was given constant airtime on BBC/ITV/Sky and mentioned in numerous papers just before the vote.
iain taylor (not that one) says:
28 October, 2014 at 1:49 pm
Falsifying a document is a crime isn’t it? Forgery?
=====
In Scots Law, I believe it is termed ‘uttering’.
Either way, the answer is Yes and Aye.
@Bugger (the Panda) 12.46
I agree. I would contribute to a judicial review if someone is able to start the ball rolling but e are running out of time.
Is it not illegal to forge someone’s signature?
And are the three amigos not colluding with a fraud if they did not immediately deny ever signing any vow?
The ‘Vow’ by itself means nothing. Only as part of a concerted campaign designed to deceive the people of Scotland, which it was, does it have any significance. It came in conjuction with media cover overload on devomax, super devomax, homerule etc..
The intention was to decieve, but then we new that.
500,000 voters changed their vote because of the illegal VOW. A lie. Never had there been such a corrupt Referendum, influenced by outside illegal influence.
1/4 of (2,000,000) NO voters changed their mind on the promise of full fiscal autonomy and total devolved powers. ‘Home Rule’ ‘Federalism. According to Ashcroft’s exit polling
NO was not a majority of the electorate. 47% – 666,000 did not vote. The devil’s in the detail. External Unionist influence. ‘If voters are not sure. Do note vote’. Influencing the electorate not to vote. On such an important issue. It’s appalling. Gerrymandering.
I did not believe that the “vow” would be fulfilled, past performance shows how trustworthy Westminster is. But that the DR was allowed to print such blantant lies and that the three leaders don’t deny it immediately makes them guilty of deception. They should all be made to answer in a court of law and as they are in public office, they should be suspended until the courts decide their culpability. If it is found that they are guilty by neglect, then they need to banned from holding public office, the referendum needs to be done again, the DR banned and any other MSM including the BBC who knowingly failed to uncover the fraud should be punished. Where is the accountabilty for this sort of behaviour? If they get away with it, the UK Government can never be trusted by the people of not only Scotland, but the whole of Great Britain and Northern Ireland again.
What am I saying? When was the last time they did anything that wasn’t in their own self-serving interest?
BtP
“I have opened a bottle of Anger Management wine”
🙂 I’ve been on the stuff since the 18th Sept and the reasons to drink it just keep coming.
Why not formally send it to editor f Sunday Herald? In the first instance they could do digging and perhaps get comment? Seems to me the value of this is only if you get the 3 stooges to agree it was conjured by the DR?
A complaint to OFF also seems in order, as they can surely pursue for veracity.
People also need to try and remember that we had months of debunking shit like the Vow, and some voters out there are naive, and don’t look further, but that is where we need to try and steer people to look beyond.
BBC fact check department still on holiday.
Scottish independence: Cameron, Miliband and Clegg sign No’ vote pledge
16 September 2014
“The leaders of the three main parties at Westminster have signed a pledge to devolve more powers to Scotland, if Scots reject independence.
The pledge, which appears on the front of the Daily Record newspaper, has been signed by David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29213418
Sorry meant complain to PCC
I sorry but people who think the referendum result is any way violated by the Daily Record’s “vow” are wasting their time. The newspapers can be as biased as they like, that is what they did in the referendum campaign. It is up to the owners and editors of papers to determine the contents of their newspapers. They can do what they like.
The No campaign did not break the purdah either. The British government said there was no offer of more powers, and this was highlighted by William Hague. The three party leaders “vow” was a way around the rules, in the same way that footballers run into goalkeepers to win penalties.
Don’t know if you’ll get this mail (neither of my two comments re the vow came up earlier) – I agree with you and am sure that we are on that road.
@X_Sticks
Thats probably the only way it could be reported by the MSM – a scandal like this and a chance to ruin (even further) the reputation of a rival publication is what tabloids dream of each day, sadly this shocking revelation (confirmation) will no doubt be ignored en masse.
Who will be first for the cut Davie Clegg or Torquil as a result of the falling sales? Telling lies and talking themselves out of a job.
@ 2.44pm
I respectfully decline your offer to contribute to the petition site known as 38 Degrees – on two grounds:
(1)-That very site conned a lot of Yes voters into signing a petition which they later allowed Crash Gordon to highjack for his own self interests. That petition had somewhere in the region of 120,000+ signatures on it.
Many of us have closed our accounts with 38 Degrees.
(2)-Smith has no intentions of ever meeting ordinary members of the public and no amount of signatures is ever going to alter that fact, IMO.
😉
http://www.facebook.com/ScotlandsNOcompanies
Mock Chop, wi’oot sat, wi’oot sass n nae chips BUT ye div get 3 pikklet ingins whither ye like em or no.
Puir service, nae stars…
It is not impossible that Alistair Darling’s absence
is simply a huff.
Well, let’s face it, he fronts the No Campaign for month after month, and then at the last minute Gordon Brown
takes over and seals the No win with his ‘promises’.
I think most us in AD’s shoes would be totally pissed off.
And, with our very big bonus from the Tories for a job well done, a wee spell in New York would do nicely, thank you.
Its the press equivalent of something scribbled onto the back of a cigarette packet except that there was no packet.
Its yet another lie but the only surprising and depressing fact is that so many of our fellow Scots are taken in by such tactics.
Get wise and stop buying their papers!
The best thing we can do is look to the future. We lost the referendum narrowly. However, trying to get the result overturned is not the way to achieve success. We have to come to terms with it. We will only achieve meaningful change if we concentrate on it and build towards it.
@Muttley79, your second para is contradictory, you say the No camp did not break our day, then you say the Vow was a way round the rules??
One way or another, this stinks, because the leaders need to at least say Yes, it represents me, or No I did not give permission for these words, and my signature to be used.
Ffs!! Purdah
@Valerie
Yes, it did not break the rules because the British Government said, through William Hague, that there was offer on more powers from that administration. Using the party leaders was a way round that. In the same way as footballers who run into opponents, and then fall over and win fouls. They got around it by deceit and being crafty.
Rev, I’m sure I’m not the only one, but can we get something akin to the Wee Blue Book regarding all the lies printed up prior to the General Election?
Need another fundraiser on the go.
It all makes you wonder who won and who lost! Perhaps it might be more more meaningful to ask who won the most, and who lost the most?
The various Yes components all seem to have benefited one way and another. We’re fighting fit and ready for Round Two.
Look at the NaeSayers! The broadcast media wing is down in audiences and newspaper sales are also down. They all paid a high price for their biased stance. Slab are in a hell of a state having almost destroyed themselves during and in the aftermath. The LibDems were in a bad way, probably even worse now.
The Unionists in general had to play so dirty to win, their credibility is shattered. So although the Tories don’t seem to have been damaged worse than they already were is Scotland, neither have they gained much.
So, bring on Round Two, one side is prepared for it, the other is beginning from a much weaker position!
Muttleys right in that it won’t overturn the result
But pointing out the duplicity of the MSM including the bbc, will help our cause?
The UK establishment could teach Robert Mugabe a thing or two. I feel that any last shred of hope for change in this country has been lost. Thanks DR.
It doesn’t matter whether the No folk were conned into it by the vow.
Lord Ashcroft’s poll states that 14% voted no for more powers – again whether the folk polled were being truthful or not is beside the point.
It is evidence to show that they were affected by the vow and other propaganda.
The fact that the DR put the ‘signatures’ on it and it got coverage on the BBC has to be considered to be fraud.
I am happy to contribute towards the possibility of getting a lawyer to look into this.
There must be some ‘no win, no fee’ lawyers out there willing to take it on.
Valerie says:
28 October, 2014 at 3:07 pm
Sorry meant complain to PC
___________________________
The PCC was closed down on the 8th September 2014.
Here is the new body for Press complaints:
https://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/
@
Capella and Graeme Doig,
Capella, I e-mailed Lsllans Peat Worrier re this and his response is below.
I hope he doesn’t mind if I publish.
Dear Bugger,
Thanks for the email. I saw the post. An … er … strangely candid thing to put out there, I thought.
From a legal point of view, I’m afraid none of this is relevant and there are no judicial avenues usefully to pursue. The Electoral Commission has no locus to intervene. The Scottish Government incorporated only very limited grounds to challenge the outcome under the 2013 legislation for the referendum — rightly in my view. Comments or commitments made over the course of the campaign – even political vows – could never form a basis for a legal action in the courts of Scotland. This penguin won’t fly.
Cheerio,
Andrew
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 1:47 PM, mclaren.eu.com wrote:
Dear LPW
I don’t know if you are up to speed with the latest post on Wings over Scotland but, Ed Miliband’s Office has just confirmed in an e-mail to Tom Clark MP’s Office that the so called Solemn Vow does not exists except as a graphic designer’s invention.
If does not exist why was it not disowned?
Could this be the basis of a Judicial Review or some sort of legal challenge to the Electoral Commission?
I think you know folk who could know better myself.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/from-the-office-of-ed-miliband/comment-page-1/#comment-1916600
Sincerely
BtP (very very angry)
Sarah Boyack roasted by Sweeney/sturgeon Scottish parliament
double devolution
Graeme Doig
I am trying to survive without decent and indecent wine just now.
This is infamy on a World Scale , this needs to be told beyond the shores of this Septic Isles , This is Third World politics,This is the politics of a Dictatorship.
The Scottish electorate have been Royaly shafted.
Westminster is Rotten to the core as is our Media , We are citizens of the EU they must be told to protect their citizens from this Fraud.
My mention of “forgery” is not to encourage anyone to dispute the referendum result. Like Muttley and most others suggest, it is a footnote in history now. However, it would be nice to see those responsible at the Record subjected to a police investigation.
For me the referendum result just confirmed to me that a sizeable chunk of the population is indeed “too stupid” – I don’t mean the 55% (many of whom just like to be able to blame WM and/or Holyrood for all the country’s ills rather than take responsibility themselves) but those among them who were taken in by the lies when the truth was there for all to see.
@BtP:
I have opened a bottle of Anger Management wine.
Grapes of wrath?
Action Directe, mon brave?
Hmmmm… Could you be more specific? 🙂
Nicola Sturgeon referred to ‘the vow’ in this afternoon’s debate on devolution at Holyrood. But the tory guy who responded after her more or less implied (at the begging of his intervention) it was only a Daily Record invention.
As for the Labour, I think they avoided the use of the term altogether.
It is clear stated in the Daily Record and reported elsewhere that David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg had “signed” the vow as worded.
That was a lie. Ed Miliband has now admitted as much.
On that basis the Daily Record will have to correct/retract their original front page story and offer an apology.
If they refuse to do so they can be reported to the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO).
A message from Vespbar:
https://archive.today/KHvkk
Off topic,
One of the No voters “I don’t like the SNP” types I know. Has just said he’s voting Labour next year for good government. I just smiled and wished him well. I didn’t even dare say that it’s FPTP for Westminister, just said well I’ll be cancelling yours out with an SNP vote, and smiled!
He lives in Angus. Labour will be lucky to come third.
This is the brazen nature of a lot of the populace.
E.G Don’t have a scooby!
from BBC article mentioned by G Campbell 3-07
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29213418
“The pledge, which appears on the front of the Daily Record newspaper, has been signed by David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg.”
That’s the BBC, who millions rely on for unbiased FACTUAL information, stating that the pledge appearing on the front page of the Daily Record has been signed !
…and yet not only had it not been signed but didn’t even exist in the first place ?
Wouldn’t the first thing any good journalist normally do be to confirm the truth in their piece?
That’s not shoddy journalism that’s LIES !
The newspapers do not need to print the truth, they can lie if they want to. How do you think the Daily Mail has survived, by printing the truth? Rev Stu has said this many times.
AultA
2010 Lalande de POMEROL
Chateau Tour de Bossuet?
Sarah Boyack the first Labour member to declare for leadership bid.
She is the best candidate I can think of, so they’ll probably elect Richard Baker instead.
Why waste your time puffin and blawin’ about the “vow?”
Its just ONE example of how the MSM, along with the rest of the media in Sotland, have connived and carried out the establishments bidding towards the Scots.
As I’ve said before, the fact that 55% of the Scots nation are STILL being taken in by all this, just validates the establishments view of the Scots nation which is to rob them of ALL their assets, namely whisky oil, etc etc and NEVER to let the natives get within a thousand miles of the revenues derived therefrom!
When are we, as a nation, going to finally wake up from our slumbers??
No other nation on earth would be soooo gullible!
The morris dancers must think that Xmas has come early this year, and will continue to not believe their luck to have landed beside more compliant neighbours who are willing to shaft their ain folks at every opportunity, come what may!!
What I want to know and to understand is why all those people who were older than 10 in 1979 and knew how many were duped by the ex Prime Minister Alex Douglas Hume could actually be duped once more?
Actually, many countries are just as gullable, you only have to look at the effect the media has on the world population.
Nigel, have to agree totally with you.
I’m not a lawyer, I’m just an ordinary punter with no degree in any subject, but I just thought well, there may be some legal eagles out there who just might refine the idea.
Conspiracy to defraud,ALLEGEDLY.
On or prior to 16th September, 2014,
You, the proprietor of, and you MP,
Did,
Whilst acting together, formed a fraudulent scheme to influence the people of Scotland to induce them to cast their vote in the Independence Referendum, to be held in Scotland on the 18th September, 2014, and vote NO to independence.
And in furtherance of said conspiracy, created a document known as the VOW, said VOW purporting to pledge security of tenure to the Scottish Parliament with additional powers to be granted to said Scottish Parliament, and said document purporting to be signed by,
The right honourable David Cameron Prime Minister, The right honourable Nick Clegg Deputy Prime Minister, and the right honourable Edward Milliband leader of HM Opposition, guaranteeing said VOW,
The truth being, as you both well knew, that this was false, and in furtherance of said scheme, published said document in the said Daily Record News Paper in order to induce the people of Scotland to vote accordingly, and affect said Independence Referendum vote, and by all such means, defrauded the people of Scotland.
This time, the Tory MSP I mentioned before clearly said: “It’s only the Daily Record that called it a vow.”
Forgery
The creation of a false written document or alteration of a genuine one, with the intent to defraud.
Forgery consists of filling in blanks on a document containing a genuine signature, or materially altering or erasing an existing instrument. An underlying intent to defraud, based on knowledge of the false nature of the instrument, must accompany the act. Instruments of forgery may include bills of exchange, bills of lading, promissory notes, checks, bonds, receipts, orders for money or goods, mortgages, discharges of mortgages, deeds, public records, account books, and certain kinds of tickets or passes for transportation or events. Statutes define forgery as a felony. Punishment generally consists of a fine or imprisonment, or both. Methods of forgery include handwriting, printing, engraving, and typewriting. The related crime of uttering a forged document occurs when an inauthentic writing is intentionally offered as genuine. Some modern statutes include this crime with forgery. [thefreedictionary.com]
Helena Brown;
When denied the truth people will hold onto lies. When people know the truth they will fight to the end to hold onto a lie.
People walked into the polling booth on Sept 18th clasping a lie in order to vote No.
The Daily Record have a duty to report accurately. If they fail in that duty, or fail to correct or retract a false report then readers have redress by submitting a complaint to Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO).
If the Daily Record are found guilty by IPSO then heads will roll.
@BtP:
2010 Lalande de POMEROL ; Chateau Tour de Bossuet
Are you really prepared to hear my answer?
…
Here it is – nevertheless: the truth is, I don’t drink wine. I much prefer grape juice.
Yep, I know, I am gowk, by all Western standards.
I don’t suppose we coild crowd-fund a civil action against the DR?
“I Vow to thee my Country”, Thatcher’s favourite funnily enough! 🙂
Tory MSPs in the Scottish Parliament are now denying there ever was a ‘vow’.
Ed Miliband says there was no ‘vow’.
Can’t be any plainer than that. THERE WAS NO VOW
3 points
1. Daily record constructed the vow and must have done so in full consultation with Gordon Brown, BT and 3 main party leaderships.
2. Leaders are now distancing themselves from the Vow although opportunity was there to create that distance before referendum votes were cast. Excluding postal votes, of course.
3. Anybody who believed that shite before polls opened must have had a brain with a zip up the back. We can’t ban f*****g numpties from voting so what else might we do to prevent this problem from happening again?
Sorry needed to get this off my chest.
There’s probably nothing that can be done RE: the referendum outcome. Yes the “Vow” was a lie. We all knew that. The Unionist parties can distance themselves from it because nothing was ever signed.
However, The Record explicitly told a lie. Usually when fibbing, a newspaper has to be creative with their language and imply, but not outright state a lie. That’s why you often find a liberal usage of the word allegedly in every tabloid. It’s to cover their own arses.
The Record outright stated that there existed a signed pledge from all three parties and falsified a document as “proof”. While the document counts as a mere fabrication, the explicit statement that a pledge between the three parties had been signed is an outright falsehood and must be fraudulent.
Then the BBC backed this up with their own report, again clearly stating that a pledge had been signed. Not so much fraud on their part, but a Xinhua news level of incompetency or duplicity. Not surprising for a state broadcaster.
The record has a lot to answer for. Hopefully this sends them the way of the News of the World.
Come on Ed – I am not a labour supporter but the NO vote depended on YOU – do you want to loose Scotland for ever? I think not, then get your act together. Many of the NO voters feel let down, isolated and not welcome in their own country (I am one of them). SMP are all over us like a rash, we need your support – no more hiding behind Joan Lamonts skirts – stand up for the 100%, unless you want to be a big woose for the rest of your days. Maybe your brother would have been a better choice – have the backbone man to do what’s right.
Below is a section of the submission I sent to the Smith Commission. The politicians cannot simply walk away from the VOW as though it was nothing to do with them.
“Because nothing more specific than a “timetable” was offered to the Scottish people the politicians can argue now that they did not collectively specify any particular set of devolved powers and it is up to the Commission to resolve the morass of conflicting opinions between the various political parties in order to arrive at a statement agreed between these political parties as to what these devolved powers will ultimately be. However it must be remembered that none of these parties sought to distance itself in any way before the referendum vote from the implied Devo Max/Federalist hints that the VOW contained. They did not specify the powers but neither did they do anything to deny that Devo Max/Federalism was on offer.
So by that very default they can be seen, in a world based on logic, to have accepted the fuller implications of the VOW.”
What I can`t figure out is what do these people who terrified, lied and wilfully misled the country of Scotland into keeping bankers, corporations and warmongers in charge of our lives, get out of this.
I know ermine and material wealth will satisfy the most shallow of these people(slab) but what of the other countless thousands who participated in this, what do they get.
Knowing that at least 1.6 million of their fellow Scots despise them,it has to be something worthwhile you would think. Although I for the life of me can`t think what it could be.
Still having problems posting 🙁
While I agree that complaining about this won’t change the result
Mounting a legal case against the bbc for promoting this would probably not win, who cares, e don’t need to win, we just need to fight
Dragging Jacky’s bird, call Kaye, even brown into court to ask them questions would be a victory
Not all bad publicity is good publicity, even if we didn’t win the case, the people would get to see Andrew niel and Jacky’s bird getting hauled up in court?
thoughtsofascot says:
28 October, 2014 at 4:13 pm
There’s probably nothing that can be done RE: the referendum outcome. Yes the “Vow” was a lie. We all knew that. The Unionist parties can distance themselves from it because nothing was ever signed.
Indeed, but as you said, the DR and the BBC now have a legal case to answer. I suppose the BBC could just about squeeze out of it, but the DR panicked and crossed the line, and should be made to pay.
Off-topic but not off-topic: November 3rd is the Republic of Panama’s National Day. Let’s take a moment to congratulate them for maintaining their independence in the face of anglo(typeUSA)imperialism, having peacefully recovered foreign military occupied territory, having made a credible beginning to giving the indigenous population real cultural and economic autonomy and having a safer banking system than the UK…oh, and having a head of state that does not purr.
Is it a problem free place? Of course not – no place is – but the Panamanians having gone through so much know that whatever challenges they face they do so as masters (and mistresses) in their own house. Having a similar population to that fair country Scots should congratulate them on their national day… if they are not too ashamed to do so.
If you want to send your best wishes:
Embassy of the Republic of Panama
40 Hertford St, Westminster, London W1J 7SH,
United Kingdom
Maybe someone optimistic could scout around Edinburgh for a suitable site for the future Panamanian Embassy for if and when Scotland reaches a similarly advanced level of national self-respect.
Craig P says:
28 October, 2014 at 3:53 pm
Sarah Boyack the first Labour member to declare for leadership bid.
She is the best candidate I can think of
———–
Whit?????
Is this E/mail from an alert reader genuine or just another hoax to get these B***** off the hook and out of the vow?
It’s such an odd thing isn’t it? EVERY Other source available on September the 16th seem to have been convinced there was some actual signed letter and yet all it was was a Daily Record “mock up”
Do any of them check their stories?
(don’t click the buggers links by the way, just there in case anyone wants proof)
ITV
“signed a letter” “In a letter”
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-09-16/leaders-sign-the-vow-to-promise-scots-new-powers/
Leaders sign ‘The Vow’ to promise Scots new powers
The leaders of the three main parties in Westminster have signed a letter promising “extensive new powers” for Scotland if they reject independence in Thursday’s referendum.
In a letter titled “The Vow” published on the front page of the Daily Record, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg say a No vote will guarantee “faster, safer and better change than separation”.
SKY NEWS
“put their names to a letter”
http://news.sky.com/story/1336501/salmond-leaders-vow-a-desperate-offer
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all put their names to a letter which appeared on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper today with the headline “the vow”.
THE HERALD
“David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed the letter”
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/david-cameron-nick-clegg-and-ed-miliband-sign-extra-powers-pledge.1410822585
The leaders of the three main parties at Westminster have signed a pledge for more powers for Scotland if it rejects independence.The leaders of the three main parties at Westminster have signed a pledge for more powers for Scotland if it rejects independence.
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed the letter.
THE SCOTSMAN
“made the vow in a signed letter”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-salmond-scoffs-at-uk-letter-1-3543073
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg made the vow in a signed letter which appears on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper.
THE GUARDIAN
“David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed a joint vow” “Although it has not been signed by Gordon Brown”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/live/2014/sep/16/scottish-independence-referendum-reaction-to-the-cameronmilibandclegg-vow-live#block-5417df3fe4b07f3773195cd4
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed a joint “vow” to Scotland. You can read the text here. The three leaders have also each written an individual piece for the Daily Record setting out what they are promising. And the Record has published its own interpretation of the “vow”, which goes into slightly more detail than the text.
Although it has not been signed by Gordon Brown, the whole thing is clearly inspired by him
THE TELEGRAPH
“ a signed letter”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098809/Alex-Salmond-attacks-Cameron-Miliband-and-Clegg-powers-vow.html
The three UK party leaders made the vow in a signed letter which appears on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper, which is popular in Scotland’s traditional Labour heartlands
THE INDEPENDENT
“Letter” ”signed”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-cameron-miliband-and-clegg-sign-devolution-vow-but-scots-sceptical-9736090.html#
Boyack delares – exclusive behind the scenes coverage:
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/mcs/media/images/78119000/jpg/_78119908_decontaminating_doctor.jpg
@G Campbell
Here’s the archive link for the BBC article you linked to, just in case evidence of fraud is needed! It is quite clear about extensive new powers being pledged.
https://archive.today/es1dE
“The leaders of the three main parties at Westminster have signed a pledge to devolve more powers to Scotland, if Scots reject independence. The pledge, which appears on the front of the Daily Record newspaper, has been signed by David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg.”
“The first part of the agreement promises “extensive new powers” for the Scottish Parliament “delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed” by the three parties.”
Douglas Alexander added: “I don’t think there’s any embarrassment about placing policies on the front page of papers with just days to go. I think the ‘Yes’ campaign are struggling.
I dunno why everyone is surprised. The vow was and always will be shite. The only part the surprises me is Ed’s admission it’s all lies …. And not just any old shite – real westminster shite.
Am quite happy with how thing are ticking along since the 19th of sept. This just adds more lies to the pile. Now that BoS and lloyds are moving with job loses on the way because of it the people who voted no to secure there investments and pensions are now in line for a right good butt f#*king.
My biggest concern is this knowledge is still not mainstream news stories getting aired on loop 24/7
I agree Luigi. The BBC almost certainly will worm their way out of it and play dumb. They were no doubt in full knowledge of this sham, given their deep links with the pro-union campaign and British government, however it can’t be proven that they weren’t just acting in “good faith” by reporting the DR vow.
The DR however have cooked their goose. There’s absolutely no way that they can worm their way out of this one and they have explicitly told a lie and fabricated their own evidence for the lie. If there are any legal challenges to be made, they ought to all be directed at the DR. Wipe the paper out before May.
Auld a
The bbc also called it a vow
Suggestion, can we archive the last weeks bbc news items? Before they get deleted
@frazer allan whyte:
Should an independent Scotland grant political asylum to Julian Assange and Edward Snowden?
@
Helena Brown says:
28 October, 2014 at 3:55 pm
Because they they were already Tory, at that time and still hankered?
Quick question…why would Labour want it on record how badly their Devolution proposals were:
S4M-11301.1 Labour MSP Iain Gray: Scotland Devolution Commission, The Smith Commission-As an amendment to motion S4M-11301 in the name of Nicola Sturgeon (Scotland Devolution Commission, The Smith Commission), after “Proposals” insert “and the publication of all parties’ enhanced devolution proposals”.
The Daily Record used three signatures purported to be those of the leaders of the main political parties and passed them off as coming from them and on a printed paper.
Fraudulent.
Yeah, scour the BBC website and archive anything that is related to the “vow”
I guarantee that they will wipe it after today.
Murdo Fraser at 15:20 Today in Holyrood
“The Prime Minster David Cameron could not have moved much faster than he did; within a few hours of the referendum result coming out from number 10 Downing Street and announcing that the Smith Commission would be established to deliver the promises made in the Vow.
Maybe it’s just wishful thinking but wouldn’t buying the daily record the day that was on the front page constitute some kind of contract that has to be upheld?
Ming Campbell talked about the vow after the referendum, did clegg tell him this?
I wonder what he would say under oath?
Luigi says:
28 October, 2014 at 4:10 pm
I don’t suppose we coild crowd-fund a civil action against the DR?
_______________
Can we not just crowd-fund a civil war, it would be so much easier and satisfying.
🙂
I wonder if any of these Tory msp are on record talking about the vow?
Btw, they are taking their lead from Andrew Neil, he started this line at the weekend
Remember this from Alex Mooney, “Is the “Vow” a Record breaker?”
http://www.newsnetscotland.scot/index.php/scottish-politics/9812-is-the-qvowq-a-record-breaker
Mr Mooney was arguing that criticism of the Record’s editor Murray Foote and Record journalists were unjustified following the referendum campaign.
Where is Alex Mooney now?
That briefing note (www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06987.pdf)
is factually inaccurate at para 2.3. None of the MPs contacted have been able to provide a copy of the “signed” vow.
and a better link … http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06987.pdf
If the Daily Record are found guilty by IPSO then heads will roll.
I totally agree Helena!
But, you’re forgetting this sure aint a “normal” country!
The establishment and MSM were ALWAYS in cahoots-the object was always to maintain the status quo, and they won!
It should be remembered that, in the uk, there exists one law for these within a few sq miles of the city, and another set of laws for the rest of us-I kid you not!
For example, the furore surrounding the mps who defrauded their way into receiving millions in expenses, would normally, if it involved us mere mortals, would have us thrown into jail and the keys thrown away!
Similarly, when the govt had to bail out the bankers for billions of pounds(our money) it was subsequently found that banker had in many cases been guilty of defrauding the public.
How many have been jailed?
If you or I step out of line and defraud HM govt tax dept by so much a a ha’penny, they would be down on us like a ton o bricks!
Hows it feel, living under the jackboot, knowing half your nation don’t give a toss!!
The Daily Record should never be forgiven for their acts. They went far beyond any reporting of the news to actively campaigning for a political result to the point of writing material like this. The only thing I’d like to see from the DR now is them shutting up shop for good as they can never be trusted again after this.
The only thing I’d like to see from the DR now is them shutting up shop for good as they can never be trusted again after this.
Surprised it took you so long to suss them out BB??
Interestingly…
Download SN06987.pdf (449.9 KB)
SN06987.pdf
View online
Download as zip
http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06987
Download SN06987.pdf (449.9 KB)
SN06987.pdf
View online
Download as zip
http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06987
It’s not about the result, for me this is about a newspaper so arrogant they will mock up a ‘Vow’ and portray that as carrying weight for anyone that might believe it.
I think what is important here, is that every outlet paraded and referred to this as the gospel, and therefore ripped the piss out of the unsuspecting.
They should be held to account, and its where and how to do that. I repeat, I think the Sunday Herald is one avenue.
@BtP
Thanks for contacting LPW for an opinion. I find it incredible that a fraud of this magnitude can be perpetrated without any of the participants being accountable. At the very least the public needs to know the level of deceit being practiced on them. Perhaps some legal action can be taken against the DR via the IPCC. What about Channel 4 news?
Ok there seems to be some weight behind these ideas so for a change rather than just talking about it between each other lets actually do this
@ No no no 38% degree’s after the Brown hijacking a petition Nae chancety, ave unsubscribed. try Change .org.
@AuldA
not just – people being deported to their deaths (Amana Sumani 09.01.2008 etc) should not have to flee to Scotland but should be offered a place of safety.
There should be a generosity of heart in a free Scotland in memory of all those Scots taken in by other countries because the parcel of rogues in their own nation made them strangers in their own home.
Gordon brown daily record vow
“In my view a vow, once written, cannot be casually rewritten or revised.”
bfh–prob for Gordon it was never signed
@frazer allan
re Panama – not so off-topic as Panama was ridiculed by Darling and the No campaign and held up as an example as to what Scotland would turn out if we voted Yes. And not only is Panama prospering it is also the happiest country in the world – could this be Scotland’s future too? http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/sep/17/worlds-happiest-country-panama-overtake-denmark
This latest posting had me cheering – again! The news is bound to make some converts and is even more keech to throw at SLAB and the DR. I can’t wait to get door-knocking again for the G.E.
Anyone care to speculate as to reasons why those three leaders made no efforts to say they made no such promises before the vote took place?
I demand a rerun referendum – NOW!
I also demand the Scottish Government take action against the
I agree with others – lets crowdfund a lawsuit against this corrupt pile o shite
Cant we just write a declaration of independence and cut and paste their signatures to the bottom…!!!!
If you want to kill the DR then pressure – financial pressure – needs to be put on businesses which advertise in it.
These companies will know that sales/readership is in decline and so will bargain with DR accordingly re advertising rates etc.
What they now need to know is that by advertising in the DR they are going to LOSE BUSINESS, and plenty of it.
What about the bets that took place. People lost out. This is fraud on a massive scale.
The Parliament Papers, show what Brown offer has been totally reduce by a statement by Darling ( the snake. No wonder he has been hiding) The offer was the same as limited powers previously offered which did not come anywhere near the Scottish Electorate aspirations. They would have voted for Independence.
Darling is a thieving snake. It was a total Con. Brown and Darling saved themselves by destroying their Party.
7/5/15 A significant date.
Capella,
Fancy a date on a wedding cake?
Nothing to do night, as you have?
Appeal to the European Court of Human rights. The right to self determination.
STRANGELY EVERY MAIN NEWSPAPER AND TV SOURCE ON SEPTEMBER THE 16th GAVE THE COUNTRY THE IMPRESSION THAT A LETTER WAS ACTUALLY SIGNED !
ITV
The leaders of the three main parties in Westminster have signed a letter
In a letter titled “The Vow” published on the front page of the Daily Record
BBC
The pledge, which appears on the front of the Daily Record newspaper, has been signed by David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg
SKY NEWS
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all put their names to a letter which appeared on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper today with the headline “the vow”.
DAILY RECORD
Westminster’s three party leaders…sign a historic joint promise
THE HERALD.
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed the letter
THE SCOTSMAN
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg made the vow in a signed letter which appears on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper.
GUARDIAN
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed a joint “vow” to Scotland.
Although it has not been signed by Gordon Brown, the whole thing is clearly inspired by him
TELEGRAPH
The three UK party leaders made the vow in a signed letter which appears on the front page of the Daily Record newspaper
INDEPENDENT
The leaders signed a joint pledge, published on the front of today’s Daily Record newspaper
So Ed Miliband found his face on a mock-up of a vow to the Scottish people with his personal, hand-written signature on the front page of Scotland’s 2nd-best selling newspaper just days before Scottish constituents had to make the most important political decision in their lives.
And he decided not to say a word about it even if he had no intention whatsoever of being hold accountable for the words that were being put on his mouth.
Fair enough Ed. You are plain and simply a worthless piece of crap and the faster your party becomes irrelevant in Scottish politics the better.
The same kind of media operation was carried out when we were deceived about WMD in Iraq, which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.
Although the vow that never was, wont lead to such a horrific death toll as that, people will die as a direct result of red and blue tory policy that people in Scotland were deceived into voting for.
Politicians and media barons in the u.k are responsible for countless murders around the world with illegal wars and the support of the same. Unfortunately they are never held to account for their actions but perversely are lauded as defenders of democracy.
Every day this country is beginning to become more and more like a fascist state.
@ Capells
This is all about media control.
Kindof endof?
BtP
Bugger (the Panda) says:
28 October, 2014 at 5:21 pm
Capella,
“Fancy a date on a wedding cake?
Nothing to do night, as you have?”
Eh?
Rev before we spread this far and wide can we have details of exactly who the correspondence was between? Who exactly is angie and Sam in their parties? I personally think if this was a DR polical cartoon it’s a discrace! If the leaders didn’t sign it personally then it’s frodulant use of the leaders signatures and the electoral commission should also be involved as the DR have mislead the public the press complaints commission should act. It’s not that I disbelieve this story but I’m not shouting about it till I see the background details. I will however ask my local MP David Mundel to confirm or deny the existence of the “vow”.
The Union was saved by Photoshop. And it will be unsaved by digital media. Students of historical materialism take note.
That’s the BBC, who millions rely on for unbiased FACTUAL information, stating that the pledge appearing on the front page of the Daily Record has been signed !
Does the EU mot have regulations regarding state broadcasters and impartiality? What about obtaining funds through deception, i.e the requirement of a license fee and clearly deliberate publication of factually incorrect material likely to influence public oppinion?
The whole indyref was how I imagine living in a banana republic was like. I won’t tell you what I’d do to the lot of them, starting with the EC.
Forget the ‘Vow’, even though they played a major part in the con.
The real damage was done by the BBC and Gordon Brown team.
When the BBC gave wall to wall coverage of Brown promising Home Rule and Federalism, folk that were unsure had their reason to switch from Yes to No.
@frazer allan whyte:
There should be a generosity of heart in a free Scotland in memory of all those Scots taken in by other countries because the parcel of rogues in their own nation made them strangers in their own home.
That won’t be difficult. Scots are already known as one of the most couthy folk around. And that’s deserved.
Boycotting the DR would have one dramatic side effect. If the rag shuts down, thousands of journalists that probably played no role in this sham will get fired. That’s not fair.
O/T
Eric Joyce arrested (again) after a clash with a youth in a London convenience store it seems
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-29805022
The reality is, if we tolerate this then our children will be next. We can make no complaints when they suffer the consequences of our complacency.
Some thoughts on how to cope with the Vow-That-never-Was.
Some of you may remember I mentioned some time back that the Celtic League had written to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, expressing concern over breaches to an international covenant during the run up to the Scottish referendum.
http://www.celticleague.net/news/manipulation-and-interference-in-referendum-campaign-un-told/
It might be worthwhile persuing this line.
As i am not a lawyer, far be it from me to question Lallan Peat Worrier’s professional opinion but the key message in his reply to bugger the panda @ 3.34
“Comments or commitments made over the course of the campaign – even political vows – could never form a basis for a legal action in the courts of Scotland. This penguin won’t fly”
seem to me to lie in the words “in the courts of scotland”
Could the penguin fly elsewhere? like in the UN, for instance?
Who are the celtic league, you may ask.
According to the website it “has branches in the six Celtic Countries. It works to promote cooperation between these countries and campaigns on a broad range of political, cultural and environmental matters. It highlights human rights abuse, monitors all military activity and focuses on socio-economic issues”.
So maybe the general secretary might be interested in the tale of the vow that never was? You can contact him here
Rhisiart Tal-e-bot
General Secretary,
Celtic League
gensec@celticleague.net
M: 07787318666
At the very least, it will be useful to hear his view
Not shocking in the slightest. Nobody believed it for a second, not even those who voted no using it as an excuse.
I don’t know what you are all getting so worked up about. They have previous, Smith = Sir Alex Douglas Hume, the Vow = the Zinoviev letter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinoviev_letter
And before you get all worked up about the SNP not doing anything, that’s because the were repositioned in the late ’50s to win Independence by beating Westminster at Westminster’s own game and that is what scares the shit out of the Westminster parties.
What can you do to help the SNP in GE2015?
“Boycotting the DR would have one dramatic side effect. If the rag shuts down, thousands of journalists that probably played no role in this sham will get fired. That’s not fair.
Neither is it our responsibility. The owner ought to have thought about his employees before embarking on a joint venture with the UK Gov to shanghai Scotland’s Independence.
Did somebody say thousands – make that a couple of dozen.
I’ve always assumed (obviously rather naively) that elections and referendums were supposed to be straight up affairs, with rules that had to be adhered to with the behaviour of the protagonists subject to current laws. But maybe I’m wrong.
That leaves me wondering if there are any Scottish or English lawyers out there wishing to make a name for themselves by challenging the misleading input of the three UK parties on issues of misrepresentation, manipulation, or whatever regarding the Vow or Brown’s shenanigans? Ditto the MSM and the BBC.
I’m damn sure they would not have to be pro bono cases if there were legal issues that could be raised as crowd funding by Wingers would undoubtedly cover any costs and expenses.
If this is true it needs to be reported to the new press regulator the IPSO. Are you ok with me citing your website article and the leaked emails between Tom Clarke ‘s and Muliband’s assistants.
GG
Well researched. Every unionist media outlet reported and featured the fake vow.
I’ve e-mailed my MP and asked for a copy of the original, let’s see what she says. Mind you, she’s still not replied to me about Lord Freud.
According to the Ashcroft poll, 25% of No voters voted on the basis of “new powers” coming to Scotland, so whether that was the “vow” or Gordon Browns imaginative promises or whatever, these people will not be pleased now. 50% of No voters based it on worries about economy and EU membership. One of these is my colleague at work. I asked her today what would have to happen to make her change her mind. She said the problem was the uncertainty, and she felt everybody was lying and she couldn’t get any real information, so she went with the “safe” option. She would need to be convinced that an independent Scotland could thrive economically. I am convinced that several hundred thousand NO votes were soft NOs. Let’s not demonise or insult these people, let’s not call them idiots, let’s go out and convince them. They were worried and intimidated. My colleague says her children had said they’d move to England in case of a YES vote, because they’d have no future. We need solid evidence, statistics from neutral sources, to show to these people. How many people emigrate from Scotland every year due to lack of opportunity? Exactly how much worse off are we now than ten years ago? What is the projection for where the UK economy is going? How have other small nations performed in comparison to Scotland? We need clearly worked out plans for three scenarios, currency union, joining the Euro or a Scottish currency, rather than doggedly saying we will definitely keep the pound. We need to be able to say: whichever way it goes, we can make it.
On a side note, I read somewhere here about the BoE coming out that they would have supported a currency union, does anyone have a link for that?
Suggestion: Picket newspaper outlets, speaking (politely) to anyone who thinks about picking up a copy of the record and making them aware of this.
And who can forget the 30 September front page Daily Record headline entitled “Honour The Vow” – which asked readers to sign a petition to HONOUR THE VOW – the vow that they knew never existed in the first place. Deception on a grand scale. It’s cringeworthy. Yep – sue their asses
– http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/sign-petition-daily-record-urge-4355238
Vow-gate
Who are the DR conspirators?
If the Vow had appeared in a USA newspaper at election time and it turned out a fraud, the consequence would be a class action law suit run by a brace of top lawyers, the claim consisting of a demand for restitution on behalf of the political parties tricked, amounting to gizzillions, and the election declared null and void.
the three gobshites..
Dirty Lying bastards!!!!!
John Devine and others who are wondering if the alert reader is genuine .
Myself and quite a few other lurkers and posters on wings can assure you that the alert reader is genuine .
What I can’t assure you is that the labour party are not playing funny b*gg**s by sending the email to the alert reader .
With no access whatsoever to mainstream media
we are virtually powerless to do anything to influence
this DR/Vow issue.
Such is the reality of Better Together.
Pooling and sharing?
We are slaves without the irons.
Frustrating, maddening.
Obviously the three leaders were aware of the display of their signatures. For instance if the daily record prints a vow from David Cameron to leave Europe tomorrow you might see a quick response from No10.
All we can do is make the mud stick and post this vow through doors and in public places to display the deceit of the three politicians. Having their signatures all together like this is advantageous.
@ Annette
The uk economy is going nowhere fast, it relys on the city of london and Scottish oil to keep it from sliding into the stone age. This is why cameron is shit scared about the E.U banking reforms and might be willing to leave the union to keep his banker pals in london.
The deficit which no party wants to talk about is now at £1.6 trillion, the tories have nearly doubled the deficit since they came to power, despite their all out war on the poor. Austerity is a failed policy.
So are there any lawyers on this site who would give an opinion about the DR ‘story’?
I cannot see how this is not a matter for the police and the Electoral Commission. There was a clear (successful) attempt to influence the democratic process through lies / deception, that was colluded with by msm and the entire No better together camp. If this is not criminal behaviour, what is. They may as well legalise folk offering £10 for your vote. Democracy – my arse!
Thank you. What I actually meant was, we need properly put together materials, based on EU statistics or suchlike, preferably with graphs, that we can take and show people. Presumably something like this already exists somewhere in the YES camp, but where?
I’ve just posted my complaint to IPSO, it’s very easy, took me minutes. Anyoen who wants can use my text:
On 16th September 2014, the Daily Record published on its front page a “vow” to the people of Scotland with promises of extensive new devolved powers in case of a No vote. The text declared that the three party leaders David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband had signed “a historic joint promise, which, in their own words, will guarantee more devolved powers to Scotland.” Beneath the text of the promise appear photographs of the three politicians with their signatures. A number of people have since asked their MPs to forward to them a copy of the original document with the signatures of the three politicians. A reply was posted today, 28th October 2014, on the website “Wings Over Scotland” under the title “From the Office of Ed Miliband.” A person called Angie Williams states on behalf of Mr Miliband: “There is no official document, it was something that the Daily Record mocked up.” Presuming that this is accurate, the article in the Daily Record is not only inaccurate, it is fraudulent and the signatures of the politicians are forgeries. The severity of this fraud is amplified by the context, i.e. the direct influence this article has had on the outcome of the Scottish Independence Referendum in which, according to the Ashcroft poll, around 500 000 people voted No on the assumption that the Westminster parties had guaranteed enhanced devolution.
Please investigate this issue as a matter of urgency.
@Manandboy:
Yeah, I fairly admit I exaggerated the number 😉
However: Neither is it our responsibility. The owner ought to have thought about his employees […]
That’s something I can hardly buy. A owner thinking about their employees? I mean, that kind of boss is probably rarer than the rarest element on Earth. Too often the grassroots pay the brunt of the incompetence or foolishness of the head. What about the guy/gal responsible for the sport section? Or the weather forecast? And all the guys that lay out the pages and don’t even write? Do they deserve to be laid off? I am sure, as Morag pointed out for BBC Scotland, that most of these people are actually YES supporters.
Well, don’t misunderstand me: I do not suggest it’s better to do nothing. But if something is done, it should target specifically the direction and/or chief edition of the DR. For example, someone could start a petition asking for the chief editor to be fired. That would make more sense to me.
No surprises there, then! But it’s also a tad disappointing the vitriol and bile thrown at “No” voters. Is this the open and caring Scotland we narrowly missed? Some folk sound a bit vicious.
And the Daily Record is still at it.
In today’s Record View in response to news item of Ambulance Service planned strike action
‘Health is fully devolved to the Scottish Government’
I don’t know whether to cry or be sick. Knowing that their sheep will swallow this garbage and there’s nothing anyone can do to prevent it
@ Grouse Beater, THE VOW trashed the Edinburgh Agreement, rendering as much as 800,000 postal votes already recieved null and void. These are the grounds for legal action but their defence is clearly, THE VOW was a fiction concocted by the Daily Record, so there. We live in a world run by liars and fraudster tory boys and girls.
See the BBC in Scotland headline for Boyack?
28 October 2014 Last updated at 18:12
MSP Boyack to stand for leadershipSarah Boyack
MSP Sarah Boyack is the first candidate to formally announce she will stand for the leadership of the Scottish Labour Party.
Who’s in and who’s out of the race?
Since was this a “race” or, another day another teamGB absurd fraud on Scotland perpetrated by BBC liggers we are compelled by teamGB law to pay for.
Common law fraud is a matter for the police and criminal courts in Scotland. Trust this has been reported already?
The Referendum is proof positive
that the UK Gov has NO INTENTION of playing by any rules.
Leading a country on the very edge of irrecoverable bankruptcy, Cameron has only one priority, and that is to secure Scotland’s vast mineral wealth for the preservation of the Empire project and for the upkeep of those who run it.
The Vow suited his purposes which is why he let it run. He may not have signed anything, but he would have given the nod to Brown – and the Daily Record.
There must be a serious doubt about whether or not, by playing by the rules of democracy, Scotland will ever secure it’s independence.
There is just too much at stake for Westminster and the City of London. We are 5.3 million, while they are 50 million. They are deep in debt to the tune of around £4 trillion all found, while Scotland is so rich, no one is allowed to publish it lest the idea gain any traction up here.
Best the Scots believe they can’t make it on their own – that’s the party line and 2 million Scots are hooked on it.
O/T Can anyone tell me if 16/17 year olds are going to be able to vote in the 2015 GE, or were they only able to vote in the indy ref at that age?
Thanks
That’s good news about Sarah Boyack. She’s a decent and sensible person. I would really fear for Scotland if Murphy won. Not that he would stem the SNP (as he and his backers imagine; he is more likely to increase the indy vote) he would just poison Scotland with his toxicity in the process, and that I would find immensely sad. And unforgivable.
Five weeks ago I wrote to my LibDem MP asking for a true copy of the vow. I got a holding reply. My MP has put an enquiry to Nick Clegg Office. I’m on holding reply.
He better not insult me with a page of the Daily Record.
The Daily Record is a beacon of truth in a world of failing journalistic standards and would never attempt to mislead the Scottish public….only a fool or a Daily Record reader would believe that statement!
bowanarrow
Cant we just write a declaration of independence and cut and paste their signatures to the bottom…!!!!
Genius.
I just emailed the EC and asked what action they took if any on the vow 16th- 18th September, what action they will now take seeing as this document was fabricated to deceive the electorate and the signatures were falsely attached. 2 days before the biggest decision in Scotland’s history.
I also asked what their opinion would be were I to print and distribute 10,000 leaflets purporting to be from my MP Mark Lazarowizc completely misrepresenting his views and making completely spurious promises on the eve of GE 2015. And what action would be taken if I personally chose to deceive the electorate in that way.
If it stands it sets a precedent.
Manandboy, we think that we will have to start not playing by the rules. It may have to come down to civil disobedience. I do not think that we will ever get out of this union by the means which are now being proposed though I have always hoped that this would be possible. It is a slim hope that we can get a majority of YES alliance MP’s but then we still have the doubtful virtues of those who vote tribally and those for whom independence is a frightening possibility.
@Devorgilla
That’s good news about Sarah Boyack. She’s a decent and sensible person. I would really fear for Scotland if Murphy won.
Who do you think is behind Boyack pulling the strings? It is Murphy. Who did the review of the SLAB’s structure after 2011? Murphy and Boyack. Who is the more senior in SLAB? She will be Murphy’s puppet, and the reason he probably will not stand.
Please fix the blog, Stu.
It’s unusable for me at the moment.
Posts are still going missing or taking 10 minutes to appear.
New posts from yourself can be invisible for hours unless I see you mentioning it on your twitter feed.
I’ve been a Wings arsehole from near the start, but I feel like giving up, the ‘usability’ has become so bad.
So….55p off your shopping so you can fund the propaganda of the red tories? Well at least you also get free toilet paper on top of that as lets face it, thats all the Records good for…. wiping your a#se with. Maybe they can can get some funding from Andrex and make the pages softer…..
Annette
Bank of England contingency plans are in the minutes of their September 26th meeting:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/records/fpc/pdf/2014/record1410.pdf
Their website has other minutes and press releases. I thought I had read recently that Mark Carney had planned for a currency union but I can’t find any reference to that now.
David Goodall at 6.27pm I can forgive some others I am sorry, they did something unforgiveable, they threw away their country like a dirty sock.
@ Donald Mac
No, 16/17 year olds will NOT be allowed to vote in GE15.
I’ve a 16 year old who is miffed about it, but that’s how it stands.
Just started, Tommy Sheridan Live from the Yes Bar
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/3535664
@manandboy
There must be a serious doubt about whether or not, by playing by the rules of democracy, Scotland will ever secure it’s independence.
What exactly are you suggesting? I am reading some posts on here with growing concern. We got 45 per cent, when the Yes campaign started we were between 25-30 per cent for independence. Did you seriously think that the British state would not get up to the usual tricks? Some people convinced themselves that we were going to win.
While all these things are an utter disgrace I feel we we’re let down by the top ones on the yes side they were not forceful enough puting the case for independence forward ,I mean we had mr.,Jenkins saying he did not think the b.b.c. Was biased?imean i knew then he was not the man for the job also on the t.v. The yes side allowed themselves to be interrupted all the time without complaint live on air it was almost a walkover for the no side and the Scottish government to me was found to be wanting on so many things by staying quiet about things they should have been shouting from the roof tops I mean A.S.saying the referendum is a once in a generation thing ?what is that all about ? Tying us up for10 years,! No thanks the only people who really wanted independence were the grass roots they in my opinion were magnificent in all they did and for sheer effort they deserved to win god bless you all I thank you and Salute you
Forgery.
The question I keep asking myself is, has the Daily Record pulled off the countries largest every fraudulent illusion in plain sight, and gotten away with it.
Boycotting D.R is something i and loads of people do, BUT,
the betting public never have it out of their mits because of the racing, so my daughter tells me, who runs a well known branch of bookies which i wont advertise
Even if any of them are YESSRS their bet comes before their country LOYAL Eh!
Cmon lads n lasses help Kevin/Delboy/David/Gary with their crowdfund for better equipment & costs. They have put in a lot of hours in two & half yrs ,they were the Guys that were there for us.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independencelive.net%2Fsupport-us&h=JAQEl8RKh
Juteman, you sound desperate – as I am myself sometimes when using my PC or tablet. It’s not a Stu thing I’m afraid. My laptop has different settings from my PC & tab, and it works instantly on here. I wish I could help you find a solution but I have spent many hours trying and failing. I am compelled to repeat however, that if a comment does not comply with the sites commenting rules, then it will suffer a delay before appearing. But that is a different thing from your machine settings. Best of luck.
Ps Drink while you post – mine is red wine. It doesn’t make things any quicker, but it makes it bearable – just.
@juteman
what browser are you using? @Betty Boop and I had a play with IE 11, Chrome and Firefox a week or so back.
Chrome seemed to be the least likely to be delayed. I suspect that there’s something in the coding of the WordPress server-side that treats each of them differently.
Regardless of which browser you’re using, try to make sure it’s up to date.
Thanks to Annette. Complaint to IPSO lodged. I’ll report progress, if any.
Laighing at this selective piece in Laura Pettigrews love-in piece on Jola on the beeb
“She carried out a review of policy on issues like devolution and the party’s commitment to free universal public services.”
#Sumfinfurnuffinsociety
@ Juteman
Having the same problem,tried different browsers same problem. Posting this at 7.14 and wont see it till at least 7.35.
@GG:
The fact that most other media titled on ‘the vow’ does just prove that, nowadays, with the endless race for scoops, no journalist in the daily press seriously bothers to check out their sources.
@Annette:
Presuming that this is accurate, the article in the Daily Record is not only inaccurate, it is fraudulent and the signatures of the politicians are forgeries.
Technically, this cannot qualify as forgery, because the document on which the signatures were printed is obviously a phony. Even the most gullible cannot imagine what was printed on the DR cover was actually the replica of a real document, can they?
Now, all depends on the article itself, and on where exactly a court would place the fence between, as you say, “inaccurate”, which is despicable but legal, and “fraudulent”, which is an offence.
Here is the link to the BBC article via news sniffer.
http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/837443/diff/0/1
Meanwhile, over at the Guardain, Severin is back and trying to make out that Scottish HE students are being reduced to poverty by the uncaring Scottish government.
@ Capella
Nup!
13/14 Taxes raised in the UK £490Million – google (or whatever) UK Gov Official website. Search ‘statistics’. Three documents will appear. Open the middle one? Look through for the table of total taxes.
Total taxes raised in Scotland 12/13 (13/14 not available yet) £59Billion. – google (or whatever) Scottish Gov official Website. Search ‘GERS’ A document will appear. Go through the pages for the table of total taxes. Scotland raises more and spends less than the rest of the UK. Balances it’s books.
Tax cuts since 2011 in the rest of the UK means taxes have fallen in the rest of the UK £110Billion a year. The rest of the UK borrow and spends £110Billion a year.
(Pro rata) £10Billiona year more is borrowed in the rest of the UK and spent on the Private sector. (Projects etc.) In the rest of the UK tax cuts and borrowing and spending more mean the deficit/debt is not being paid off but increasing to £110Billion a year. The debt has risen instead of being paid off.
Scotland has to pay £4Billion on debt repayments it doesn’t borrow or spend. It loses £4Billion a year in Oil tax revenues since 2011 because Westminster increase Oil tax revenues 11% a year
(£2Billion) now up to 90%. £1.5 on Trident/illegal wars and save £1.5Billion on ‘loss leading’ drink tax.
The ConDems transferred revenues from the most vulnerable to the wealthy (them) Cut taxes for the wealthiest and their associates. (Foreign) Multinationals making vast profits evade tax through
the City of London and pay no tax at all.
Not paying off the deficit means the debt accumulates and they have to pay off even more in debt repayments.
Personally I find that NO voters will only ever vote for Scotland running Scotland if its not going to make them worse off.
55% have almost perfect lives in Scotland regardless that the teamGB economy is bankrupt, that there is almost no actual wealth producing industry in Scotland or that Westminster’s blown trillions on keeping the edifice from crashing down.
No voters don’t care about any of that and never will until if/when it all goes tits up or infact, if voting Yes for Scotland will make them even better off. Its up youngsters now, the old complacent No Scotland region types don’t care about anything but their own little bubbles of comfort zones. I think SNP Scots.gov and YES Scotland knew this all along. The owners of the BBC and all the press certainly do.
@BtP I answered your query on the previous topic 😉
Hi Muttley79. I certainly believed that Yes would win but it was mainly a gut thing aided hugely by the magnificent grassroots Indy movement.
But I was not prepared for the ability of No to harness the entire media into such a formidable force against independence. The BBC in particular took me by surprise.
Nor did I realise that Cameron had no respect for the Edinburgh Agreement and would renege on it.
Right now, I have little, if any, faith in democracy being exercised in the UK. Neo-Liberalism has no use for it.
The consequences for England if Scotland became independent would be catastrophic, which is why Europe sighed with relief when No won.
And yet I believe that independence will come, but not as a gift or concession, but rather because the political architecture of the UK is about to change quite radically and in that emerging situation, Scotland will be able to assert it’s right to self-determination by claiming Independence to itself through the expressed will of the Scottish people – once enough of them they wake up. And the sooner the better.
Thanks for the replies folks.
It doesn’t seem to make any difference what browser I use, or device.
I’m using my laptop now, but it is just the same using my phone at work during the day.
Wings was a site I got involved with every hour or so during the day, but i’m now not even looking at it every day. 🙁
Heedtracker: Personally I find that NO voters will only ever vote for Scotland running Scotland if its not going to make them worse off.
I’d further; they’d vote for self-determination only if they thought they’ll be better off.
My intuition tells me they don’t see anything wrong with their world that Westminster won’t fix sooner or later, so why add another tier of government?
It has to be significant that the most under-privileged and rural areas voted for independence, while the well-heeled gave it the finger.
All the tactics from the No campaign were predictable. The vow was straight out of the 1979 textbook. By international standards the referendum campaign would not have raised an eyebrow. The MSM were always going to act in the manner they did.
@desimond says: 28 October, 2014 at 12:38 pm:
“Isnt there some Ombusman or PCC this coudl be referred to? It clearly states at the top, “Westminster’s 3 Party Leaders SIGN”.
Now excuse me if I am wrong but is not it a crime to sign a document with someone else’s signature? I’m no lawyer but I know that Scottish law is quite different than that of England, Wales & N.I. I was a Union Rep for over 15 years and one of my old union members came to me having got himself & his wife into a bit of bother over a cheque the altered.
I took them along to a lawyer and after that first meeting left them to it. I remember, though, that the lawyer spoke of forgery coming under several headings of, “Common Law fraud”, “Uttering”, “Embezzlement” and, “Statutory Fraud”..
Now there is no doubt that there were three signatures attached to that Record article. That is at least three counts of Forgery and that’s just for a start. It was no doubt published with a view to mislead every single person in Scotland who intended to vote YES and in fact has cheated the entire population of Scotland. It could be the biggest fraud case in Scottish history since the Treaty of Union.
If I’m not mistaken anyone taken in by that Record article must at least have a legal right to formally ask the police to investigate if any criminal acts have taken place. Thing is no one even needs to have bought an actual Daily Record to make a complaint for the Record is on line. If memory serves the police have no option but investigate every reasonable complaint and report to the Procurators Fiscal. What would happen, I wonder if they got several million complaints about the Record?
So when are we getting a Scottish owned pro-independence daily newspaper?
Haven’t caught up with all comments yet, but;
@ Jim Thompson
thanks for the briefing note link
Having a look at 2.3.
Someone’s been misled. Could it be the Parliament?
Where did the info come from that made it into the briefing paper?
Who was responsible for it?
When did this clause first appear – given that it appears the briefing paper has been updated?
Were the leaders of the UKParliamentary parties aware of this clause?
If not, why not?
If so, and it is wrong, why wasn’t it corrected.
Are Hazel and Bowers aware of the disclaimer from Milliband’s office?
Will the paper be amended to reflect Milliband Office comments?
(Many questions to be pursued)
Hi, I am Northern Irish, but a lover of Scotland and all it represents. Just to say how deeply disappointed I was for all Scottish people. I was so looking forward to travelling on the ferry from Belfast to Stranraer on Friday Sep 19 and breathing in the air of a free Scotland. Keep up the fight. It will happen much sooner than people think.
I’d like to see the Scottish parliament declare itself ‘sovereign’. I don’t mean ‘independent’ just yet. By ‘sovereign’ I mean the Scottish parliament should declare that it and it alone will make the decision about when/if another referendum is held. I don’t advocate holding another one next week. But, I am angered that some people are saying Westminster will never grant another one. It should be made clear by the Scottish parliament that the decision is not Westminster’s to make. It should be up to Scotland and its parliament alone to decide on any future referendum, just as its up to the Westminster parliament alone to decide on the holding of an EU referendum. Cameron doesn’t have to get permission from Brussels before holding one, and Scotland shouldn’t have to get permission from London before holding an independence referendum. The actual date would depend on the circumstances and the likelihood of victory. But, I’d be confident that an independence referendum could be won in 2017/18, especially if, as seems likely, we’re by that time deep into the term of a Tory or Tory/UKIP government. If such a government emerges after the May 2015 election, and the polls then show increasing support for independence, the Scottish parliament should go ahead and hold an independence referendum regardless of whether Westminster agrees to it or not.
I’d like to apologise sincerely to the Scottish people for Jim Murphy, Pat McFadden and John McTernan, all people with Irish names. I can understand, and it doesn’t anger me that much, when Orange members come out against an independent Scotland. Its what I expect. But, given the record of the London government in Ireland over the centuries, when people of Irish nationalist heritage oppose an independent Scotland, run around waving Union Jacks and prattling on about the ‘wonderful United Kingdom’, I get incensed. Lots of people are ("Tractor" - Ed)s to their country of birth. But, it takes a special kind of creep to be a ("Tractor" - Ed) to two countries, the country of their birth and the country of their ancestry.
All a bit sad but no yes voters believed it anyway.
Never hear from angry no voters that were duped by this.
I would like to as we need you to get angry.
Sadly I think things will have to go bad for quite a few people to force a yes and that is not the way it should happen.
Fear over hope.
Hope I am wrong.
It was nothing to do with Blair Jenkins or YES.
Ashcroft exit polls show 1/4 of NO voters (500,000) changed their vote because of the VOW and (empty) promises of total fiscal autonomy. ‘Home Rule’ Federalism.
666,000 of the electorate did not vote. ‘if you not sure don’t vote’, according to the snake Unionists, gerrymandering and influencing the vote totally against election rules. Purdah.
What should we expect from a London owned newspaper, the Daily Record claims to have Scotland at heart, but its just a ruse.
We should never ever buy the Daily Record again.
As labour continue their magical leadership mystery tour for our entertainment, here’s one Eggman who isn’t hiding in a bunker in westminster hoping it will all go away. 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r52ZBx0KMI
James123: So when are we getting a Scottish owned pro-independence daily newspaper?
I check the internet Scottish Statesman most days.
@ total taxes raise in UK £490Billion.
They are not raising enough taxes in the rest of the UK to cover their expenses and spending.
@Peter Campbell says: 28 October, 2014 at 12:42 pm:
“Shame the “honourable” Mr Miliband didn’t point out to voters that he never signed any vow and that we should be aware of this going into the polling booths.”
Isn’t that what is known as, “Being an accessory after the fact”, if it was to come about the Record were guilty of forgery, fraud or uttering? It might even be an accessory before the fact too, if it could be shown they had colluded with the Record to do the dirty deed.
What if the three Unionist Parties had to do a Lamont and resign?
@John
Thanks for your support of those that wish an Independent Scotland. Appreciate it.
@Grouse Beater
I agree that those in the poorest parts of Scotland came out for Yes but certainly not in the rural areas.
Take Angus which has had an SNP MP and MSP since who knows when, the county voted No. My main gripe is why was the turnout was so low in the two areas with the highest Yes vote, Dundee and Glasgow at 78% and 75% respectively.
At the end of the day, the No supporters managed to find their way to the polling booths (through fear?) many potential Yes supporters stayed at home.
Severin is a liar
@ donald mac the SNP gov are committed to giveing the 16/17 the vote on all elections,the Electorial Commission is not at this time a Devolved matter but it will come.
Delays in posting happens to many people. It could be because of the popularity of the site and the attacks. Just keep going. Many sources would like to close it down. People are lucky to have it. Thanks to Rev Stu for all his work.
Apologies if reiterating points others have made already.
Have checked wings twitter feed.
Re the response from the DR, the point needs to be made that it is not a question of which statements were used, – they were obviously cherry picked and cobbled together; now whether it constituted a Vow (clearly that was a headline grabbing ploy by the DR, but the fact that the Parliamentary Briefing Paper states that On Tuesday 16 Sept, the Parliamentary Leaders issued a joint signed statement.
Did they?
Where is a copy of it?
Who entered that Clause?
from the briefing paper –
2.3 UK party leaders’ “vow”
On Tuesday 16 September the leaders of the UK political parties issued a joint signed statement of undertakings, which was published in the Daily Record, under the headline, “The Vow”. The statement included:” etc …
scum i will make sure none of my family buy the daily record again also heard someone is about to start a campaign as they have pissed on the people of scotland.
something like the campaign in liverpool against the sun
… and now the ‘vow’ turns out to be a Daily Record fabrication, what are we to make of the ‘pledge’, the predecessor to the ‘vow’.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/nick-clegg-signs-a-pledge/#more-59386
You’re not seriously suggesting that ye olde parchment bearing the formal, legal charter, that modern day Magna Carta is not a photographic image of the six party leader’s signatures?
If ‘son of pledge’ is a lie then surely the original document from the first pledge can be used as a means of holding Westminster to account.
After all, it bears the seal of Blair MacDougall – ‘No Thanks’. It is the equivalent of each of the six signatories, plus Blair slashing palms and making a blood oath to the people of Scotland.
Unbreakable sir!
Now, what does it say about the status of Scottish MPS?
The Scottish Gov is sovereign. That is why it had the right to hold a Referendum. The Unionist could not stop it. Scots Law is different from English Law. Google (Or whatever) it. The Lord Cooper decision 1953 set the precedent.
Under the Act of Union 1707, negotiations Scotland had the right to keep it’s Separate legal system, Church (ie education system) shared Protestant Crown forever, or until there was renegotiations. On conditions both countries were to be treated equally.
Under Scots Law the people are sovereign. The Monarch, the Nobles, the Church, the people are all equal. The people are the fourth estate. Under English Law the people are subjects of the Crown. A hierarchical system.
Hi, very interesting but before I put my name to a formal complaint with IPSO (I really want to) can someone reveal the provenance of the Harty / Clarke exchange. How genuine is this? What is the source? I wouldn’t want IPSO to see thousands of complaints in the name of Scottish Independence originating from a false e-mail. That would be embarrassing.
ronnie anderson says:
“they were the Guys that were there for us.”
Second that Ronnie. They gave us the opportunity to participate even if we couldn’t be there in person. Hours of broadcasting from superb debates, demonstrations, Yes events, interviews and even the Wings wingdings. And all still there to watch on http://new.livestream.com/independencelive
Please be generous folks.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independencelive.net%2Fsupport-us&h=JAQEl8RKh
@ Heedtracker
2 things were apparent. The older people – pensioners – voted no. This group was definitely lied to. This group however was also brought up in a British Imperial word view. They were a hard demographic. And if Scotland is like the rest of the UK, they own for over 3/4 of the nations wealth.
The other glaring Ashcroft poll finding was how few “Conservative Voters” voted Yes. In my opinion that was mostly due to posters saying ” no Tories any more”. I understand the sentiment, but many right thinking people detest and can see through the Labour machine. Being told you would in effect be disenfranchised is not likely to make you want to vote for a proposition.
This vote was above all about the democratic right of Scots to get what they vote for. And if 16% or so think that a centre right politics is in their interest they have as much right to representation as those who think the sun shines out of Mr Sheridans proverbial.
It was a mistake to equate Independence with socialism. In my mind it was about democracy. That universal ideal must have resonated with Conservatives. Those voters were abandoned.
Incidentally 2/3 of Labour voters voted for No. Quite how we now expect to supplant the Labour Party may be as much hubris as the confidence that we had Yes in the bag on the morning of the 18th. Yes they are on the run, but they are far from spent yet.
Andy-B says:
28 October, 2014 at 7:44 pm
“What should we expect from a London owned newspaper, the Daily Record claims to have Scotland at heart, but its just a ruse.
We should never ever buy the Daily Record again”
Aye, what about an online vow to do just that and never buy another copy?
That facebook link to Independence Live fundraiser doesn’t seem to work hopefully this will
tinyurl.com/lov24eq
Bugr
http://tinyurl.com/oscjvjl
arrochie says:
28 October, 2014 at 6:48 pm
Five weeks ago I wrote to my LibDem MP asking for a true copy of the vow. I got a holding reply. My MP has put an enquiry to Nick Clegg Office. I’m on holding reply.
He better not insult me with a page of the Daily Record.
_______________________
I also wrote to mine and when he never had the decency to even issue a bog standard acknowledgement of receipt email i sent him another making it crystal clear that my enquiry and me would not disappear.
I also made it clear that he is elected to serve and a serious complaint would be pursued against him, to its maximum conclusion, should he persist in operating with these delaying and obstructive tactics of not responding to peoples genuine concerns and inquiries etc etc.
Low and behold i received a response which went on to state that he receives thousands of emails every day and that there was a very strict “parliamentary rule” that he was only allowed to help his own constituents and to help me i would need to supply him with my personal details of address etc.
I responded immediately and informed him that i would not be wasting my time contacting the wrong person, that i was one of his constituents and that there was no parliamentary, legal or other body/law etc which requires me to supply these personal details.
I finally informed him that i still await a detailed response to my original enquiry and request for a copy of “the vow”.
In my original email i also requested, that should this document not exist could he please supply me with the details of the person(s) and/or organisation behind the promotion of such a document in the DR.
That’s as far as i’ve got so far.
Alex Clark says:
28 October, 2014 at 7:53 pm
@John
Thanks for your support of those that wish an Independent Scotland. Appreciate it.
@Grouse Beater
I agree that those in the poorest parts of Scotland came out for Yes but certainly not in the rural areas.
Take Angus which has had an SNP MP and MSP since who knows when, the county voted No. My main gripe is why was the turnout was so low in the two areas with the highest Yes vote, Dundee and Glasgow at 78% and 75% respectively.
At the end of the day, the No supporters managed to find their way to the polling booths (through fear?) many potential Yes supporters stayed at home.
====================================
Reference Glasgow and Dundee. Wasn’t there incidents at both these places ie fire alarms? Perhaps they weren’t able to completely carry out their work, because there was just too many Yes votes and not enough time to change that amount.
From the PDF file referenced by several posters above:
“2.3 UK party leaders’ “vow”
On Tuesday 16 September the leaders of the UK political parties issued a joint signed statement of undertakings, which was published in the Daily Record, under the headline, “The Vow”. The statement included:
The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers for the Parliament will be delivered by the process and to the timetable signed and announced by our three parties, starting on 19 September….
We agree that the UK exists to ensure opportunity and security for all by sharing the resources equitably across all four nations to secure the defence, prosperity and welfare of every citizen.
And because of the continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources, and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue, we can state categorically that the final say on how much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament….
9 HC Deb col 898-900, 10 September 2014.
7
We will honour these principles and values not only before the referendum but after.10”
The excerpt says a “Vow” was signed. Either Angie Williams is a liar (or has been misled) or Hazel Armstrong and Paul Bowers are liars (or were misled by persons unknown). Perhaps a through investigative journalist can find out which it is?
@ manandboy
Wonderfully put statement, cant agree more.. 🙂
A few folk have mentioned the UK economy and where it’s going. I think this is something that people need to be made aware of. The assumption throughout the indyref campaign was that the UK economy was resilient. No one ever seemed to question it in the debates.
The uk economy is anything but resilient which is why it is hugely reliant on North Sea oil. This is pretty much it’s only physical asset. The rest of growth in the union is based on private debt underwritten by the tax payer. I asked people on several occasions during the campaign who were staunch NOs and convinced scotland couldn’t afford to go it alone what the basis of the uk economy was and I never got an answer. They were stumped every single time bar none. When I tried to explain it they just dismissed it.
We really need to educate people that an economy that uses tax payers money to underwrite a Ponzi scheme which is basically what our economy is now, is economic suicide. Higher monthly debt repayments and austerity means we don’t have the spare cash to stimulate an economy which is mostly imports anyway. We basically don’t have a real economy.
Falling salaries, rising houses prices and a huge private debt to GDP ratio ( we are always brainwashed to think its all about the national debt but private debt is the elephant in the room) means we are heading for another recession and once again the tax payer will have to foot the bill.
Of course virtually zero interest rates and a high rate of inflation (not the official bullshit one published at 2 percent) means that wealth is being transferred away from us every day). There’s no way interest rates will rise before the GE and probably even long after.
We have three Westminster parties run by a financial cartel in the city and a central bank run by former (corrupt) private bankers – a one party state disguised as a democracy.
When will people wake up.
Scotland SUFFERS at the HANDS OF THE DAILY RECORD.
As the Scottish nation rises and attempts to stand and take accountability for its own decisions, a London based publication called The Daily Record deceives the people of Scotland with a hastily prepared FALSE VOW.
It succeeds, and thousands believe what The Daily Record has said.
SHAME ON THE DAILY RECORD for harming the PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND.
SHAME ON THE DAILY RECORD for deceiving our country.
SHAME ON THE DAILY RECORD for hiding truth and promoting deceit.
It truly has NO PLACE in Scotland, and I vow not to purchase it again.
@ stoker.
If you use the website
http://www.writetothem.com
it makes the process much easier. They get a letter sent to them and the website will follow up to see if they reply.
They also keep statistics on how your MP/MSP/Councillor performs with respect to answering letters.
@Tam Jardine,
Thanks for that link.
Strikingly similar documant and it appears to be connected.
I think the pledge was the forerunner to the vow, to test the readership.
The wider public hardly noticed, so the vow was conceived and kept in reserve for later use.
A cunning ploy IMO.
@Chitterinlicht says:
(slightly O/T)
“All a bit sad but no yes voters believed it anyway.
Never hear from angry no voters that were duped by this.
I would like to as we need you to get angry”
As bad a reason it may sound, and completely against what I personally wish to happen…I just cannot get myself enthused to campaign against fracking just now. I’m inclined to hope that the drilling rigs start to rumble over the horizon.
This to me is going to be one of the BIG issues to cause civil unrest within Scotland, because it crosses all persuasions of the independence argument.
Only once everyone feels some sort of negative impact to their lives, eg from this environmental threat, only then will we see a change of heart.
Many of the No fraternity will be forced to engage with the rest of us. This current isolationist approach of being restricted to just seeing only to the end of their personal bank statement will take on a new insecurity, driven by the very Union they thought they were secure with. Only then will many of the No voter change their opinion.
But any other current perceived and minor threats of paying for tuition fees for Scottish Universities, paying for prescriptions, care charges for the elderly, these things don’t tend to impact many of the No section who somehow seem to think they are immune from impact. Many have adopted Thatcherite principals wholeheartedly…”I’m alright and to hell with society”
Just watch when their lives / lifestyle…bank balance comes under threat, then they will they engage with the rest of us.
I’ve seen earlier that Nicola Sturgeon wouldn’t declare UDI given that a referendum in the opinion of the SNP has been the policy and the best way for people to get behind and vote for YES but I feel that given all the lies and the destruction and the horrible tactics used by people over the course of the last two years that IF we return the majority of MP’s then we should start to pressure the SNP to do just that and declare. It’s going to save us time, money and we’d never have to read such garbage as “the vow” ever again!
@ Scottie
I agree with that completely. But most western countries are in the same cycle. Since the Great Depression every financial crisis has resulted in further nationalisation of the debts. The monetary system is a house of cards built on shaky foundations. Meanwhile every few years another super competitor emerges to manufacture the latest consumer goods and reap the wealth created and the jobs, while we just borrow more and speculate more.
The present recession is now 8 years old with no end in sight. We missed a golden opportunity in September to escape the gravitational pull of the London black hole and blew it. For what? A pension thats not worth jack when that 8 years of inflation comes roaring back and our overindebted pound tumbles in value? All those pensioners will end up regretting what they did.
Dr Jim says:
28 October, 2014 at 6:58 pm
“Boycotting D.R is something i and loads of people do, BUT,
the betting public never have it out of their mits because of the racing, so my daughter tells me, who runs a well known branch of bookies which i wont advertise
Even if any of them are YESSRS their bet comes before their country LOYAL Eh!”
Sadly, as we know, humans are creatures of habit.
My in-laws sit and moan constantly about this that and the other. But then they don’t bother their arses voting and they still use a certain supermarket (which i will not mention) and if they buy a rag you can guess what rag they buy.
They never once stop to think about the consequences of their daily actions, which they’ve been doing for years, or stop to express any form of gratitude towards the government responsible for putting that free bus pass in their pocket. Sad but true.
They, i’m sorry to say, are part of the generation which certain folk have said ‘need to die off’ for Scotland to get anywhere, and i can’t disagree with them.
Solution? We can only keep badgering away at them from many different angles and hope that something somewhere strikes home.
__________________________
caledonia says:
“28 October, 2014 at 8:06 pm
scum i will make sure none of my family buy the daily record again also heard someone is about to start a campaign as they have pissed on the people of scotland.
something like the campaign in liverpool against the sun”
I think we need a multi-pronged attack on this rag and every other rag in its stable.
We have to demonise it at every opportunity and never let up –
that includes its on-line version and those who buy it.
There is no one single thing which will bring this rag down so we just have to keep demonising it, what it stands for and those who keep it alive by buying it or contributing to its online version.
It will bite the dust one day – we just have to make sure.
A very good point made by John from N Ireland about those with Irish backgrounds draping themselves in the Union Jack, a certain G Galloway (aka Rula Lenska’s pussy) can be added to the list.
As regards “The Vow”, the three stoodges could sign anything they wanted, come May 15 two of them will be out of a job.
Tommy Sheridan has a first class Economics Degree and is studying for a Law Degree. Mm
‘The International Court of Justice,in a 2010 advisory position,declared that unilateral declarations of independence were not illegal under international law’
Wikipedia
gerry parker says:
28 October, 2014 at 9:03 pm
@ stoker.
If you use the website
http://www.writetothem.com
it makes the process much easier. They get a letter sent to them and the website will follow up to see if they reply.
They also keep statistics on how your MP/MSP/Councillor performs with respect to answering letters.
__________________________________
Thanks for that, Gerry, but since i’ve started the ball rolling with the email approach i’ll stick with that for now.
At the end of the day it’s all ammunition and the more we get the better.
However, i’ve bookmarked and kept the link you’ve supplied as i’ve a feeling i’m going to be needing it, on other issues, as time goes by – constantly trying to keep the pressure on and be a major thorn in their sides etc.
Will keep you all informed, via WOS, of any developments.
reply to De valera and John who commented on ” those with Irish backgrounds draping themselves in the Union Jack”,
that’s no surprise – consider the loyalists in NI and many so-called “West brits” in the republic of ireland
A surname is no guarantee of holding one political belief or the other. It’s the individual who decides and acts, whatever his/her surname.
i am always very wary of any sort of generalization about any ethnic group
@Christopher 8.20pm
If you have had a chance to look at the next thread (The Cream Puff) you will know by now that Murray Foote was very careful in his ‘rebuttal’ of Stu’s post never to say at any point that the vow actually existed. I think that’s probably proof enough of the truth of the matter.
@Capella: Thank you! If you find the other, please let me know – someone has called me out about it and it’s, um, embarrassing.
@heedtracker et al: Please, please stop bashing NO voters. We need to convince these people, not insult them. We also need to accept that some people will never come over to our side. We need to make it absolutely clear that whenever independence comes, we will reach out to them and work very hard to make it a better Scotland for everybody. Even for Tories!
@Callum
“did 450,000 voters *really* change their mind because of a newspaper front cover?”
Don’t know where you get that figure from. The difference between Yes and No was 383,937.
Which in terms of change of mind from Yes to No (in reality from Yes to No, from Yes to DK and from DK to No) would only be about 192,000.
However IMO Brown’s interventionist havers and the last minute outrageous lies about extra income tax and mortgage increases were an equally important part of the Great Deception.
“Don’t know where you get that figure from.”
According to the Ashcroft poll, 25% of No voters voted no on the basis that Scotland would get more powers and that it would be Best-of-Both-Worlds. So that would be around 500 000 people.
Spottydog 8.45, Pretty spot dog on!
@ Capella (or apologies – whoever was looking for the Carney currency union statements)
Here is the link to his statement. It’s 20 pages
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/speeches/2014/speech706.pdf
I haven’t read it, but the quotes in some of the MSM about it put their usual spin on it.
However, I do believe he didn’t rule it out, and considered its benefits. He did say (I believe) that for fiscal union to be successful, IndyScotland would need to cede some of its sovereign power. This is to be expected, and not detrimental
Hope it helps (you may have it already)
@Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
28 October, 2014 at 12:39 pm
“Is anyone here shocked…genuinely shocked…REALLY?”
Rev., Your rhetorical question and cynical self-reply masks how serious this is.
As a minimum the press complaints mechanism needs triggered . . . did the BBC cover this story in a non-investgative uncritical way? If so complaints are due here. Is it enough to bring the referendum result in question?
Is it appropriate to float the idea of a boycott of this paper?
@One_Scot says:
28 October, 2014 at 2:07 pm
I can recall seeing the front cover of the Daily Record sporting the ‘Vow’ on the BBC News website.
If it is the case that the vow is fabricated and given the wide spread coverage of the vow by the media, that would be grounds for declaring the outcome of the referendum not safe.
AGREE
@Capella says:
28 October, 2014 at 3:02 pm
@Bugger (the Panda) 12.46
I agree. I would contribute to a judicial review if someone is able to start the ball rolling but e are running out of time.
MY CONTRIBUTION IS READY TOO £££’S
@Anon says:
28 October, 2014 at 4:13 pm
Your abuse of Scottish voters is inappropriate. The purpose of engaging in politics is to persuade/convince others of your point of view. Abusing people supporting the other side does not cut it – the objective should be how to use ideas to swing 5.5% to our point of view
Unionist liar free by 2016
Vote SNP/Alliance 7/5/15.
A significant date
This looks like stupidity by the Daily Record and a complete stitch up by the Labour Party, who are now trying to win back voters.
@Swami Backverandah:
Thanks, that was me.
I sure I’ll be hated for saying this, but I feel I must say it natheless.
First, and I repeat what I stated before, forcing the whole DR to shut down is like putting the building in which you lived on fire because the landlord evicted you, no matter who inhabits the other flats. Target the landlord, not the tenants.
And then I can’t agree with those who claim that the DR lie was anti-democratic. First, democracy has always been about lies and broken vows. Gosh, if all the politicians that lie were jailed, the pens would be full since eternity. It was just another lie in an ocean of untruthfulness. But democracy is precisely about educating people to winnow the truth from lies. Education. Curiosity. Investigation. Reading the cover of the DR, everyone should have been raising an eyebrow wondering ‘is that really true? Shall I believe it? Where is the original document, since the printed one is a blatant fake.’
Next, deciding that newspapers should close for this or that reason, be it justified or not, reeks of something unpleasant. It begins by bashing the rags that obviously lie, then carries on with those that ‘just do not think like me’, then everybody knows where it ends up. Democracy has everything to lose when a newspaper dies. The only way to properly battle again misleading informations or lies is to create and support other media such as this one, other newspapers or TV channels, that endeavour in the difficult, but necessary, task to debunk the mainstream flimflam.
Finally, I don’t want to lecture anybody or seem sanctimonious, but this was clearly a mistake due to callowness. We painfully learn by experience, and I hope nobody will ever fall into a trap of this sort ever again. Growing up can be excruciating and is a way riddled with traps and pits, but everybody knows is the only way to become fully independent. Be it as a man/woman or as a nation. ‘What does not kill me, makes me stronger.’ And so we are.
Ashcroft poll, there wasn’t really enough people polled for it to be taken as fact though. Good indication of how things went.
Regarding the tory no voters….whatever happend to Wealthy Nation? I didn’t see them once during the whole thing?
AuldA might want to remind himself how the free market works.
Providers only survive when they deliver something the customer wants in a timely manner at a reasonable price. Break any or all of these three core criteria & the business is doomed.
The Daily Record printed and continues to print bare faced lies thus misleading its readership with insidious pro-British propaganda.
But thanks to social media, its customers are realising that they don’t actually appreciate being treated like idiots.
Consequently, the Daily Record suffered a not surprising crash in sales in October. And as long as it continues to print puerile rubbish it will continue to see a steep decline in its revenues.
There then, is a fine example of the free market in action. What’s not to like?
@G H Graham:
My main concern is what I stated before. While I understand this strategy, I cannot approve it: there are too much collateral victims. Would you be happy to be fired from your job because of your boss’ incompetence?
I have worked in the daily press and I know quite well what kind of pressure exists there, especially when you have to rewrite your article three times or more, just because the chief editor wants a more ‘slanted’ article, and you end up having to write keech, fearing to lose your job and knowing pretty well that if you do, you’ll be on the dole for an unforeseeable future.
Boycott the D.R. alright. But then create an independent newspaper that will enroll those in the D.R. that disagree with their direction. I’m sure there are many.
I think boycotting is the wrong word. I stopped buying the Herald because it wasn’t printing the sort of journalism I want to pay for. When the Sunday Herald started printing the journalism I want to pay for, I started buying it again. That’s market forces for you.
I’m not going to renew my TV licence because I object to paying a tax to be lied to. If the BBC stops lying, I’ll happily start paying again. That’s how it works.
It’s not about trying to put anyone out of business. It’s about not buying a product you don’t want to buy. If enough people buy the product as it is, then it won’t change, they’ve just lost a sale. If they lose too many sales, maybe they’ll change. The Sunday Herald shows that can be a profitable move.
Only if they lose too many sales and don’t change, does the question of job losses come into it. I submit that isn’t the fault of the alienated customers, it’s the fault of the bosses who refuse to change.
Are people really advocating that we should purchase a product we don’t like and don’t want, just to keep strangers in their jobs in the event their bosses are too intransigent to change to follow the market? That’s a bizarre position, frankly.
Would you go on buying horrible greasy tasteless sausages for fear the workers in the sausage plant might lose their jobs? No, me neither.
By the way, I truly don’t understand the problems people are having with the site. I use Firefox at home on a new computer, IE at work on an old computer that’s blocked from downloading updates, and IE on a Nokia Lumia Windows Phone which is updated regularly. No problems on any of these platforms.
The only post I lost since the NFL bug was fixed was one where I’d quoted a post with a YouTube link and forgot to remove the beginning of the link. Now and again a new post doesn’t appear in the links from the previous post immediately, but that only seems to last a minute or so.
It’s absolutely baffling, but I don’t see what Stu can do about it. It must be something at the users’ end.
AuldA says:
29 October, 2014 at 9:55 am
My main concern is what I stated before. While I understand this strategy, I cannot approve it: there are too much collateral victims. Would you be happy to be fired from your job because of your boss’ incompetence?
________________________
Whilst i understand and respect your position on this issue i would like to make two points. I am in no way even going to attempt to change your thinking but would point out:
(a)-The “collateral victims” due to a ‘No’ vote is far greater than that of any Unionist rag closing down and always will be.
(b)-Nobody forced any of these employees to go and work for a
Unionist supporting Labour rag, that was their choice.
Like the vast majority of folk, i will always put the future wellbeing and prosperity of my country well ahead of any Unionist rag and its employees.
btw, AuldA, you may not be aware but the DR is being boycotted by many people for various reasons all around Scotland.
Morag, of course I understand what you do and why.
I submit that isn’t the fault of the alienated customers, it’s the fault of the bosses who refuse to change.
Absolutely. That’s why I was advocating an alternative way to make the newspaper editorial line change without more or less jeopardizing the jobs of the (scut-)workers, especially those who are not responsible for the political articles.
Would you go on buying horrible greasy tasteless sausages for fear the workers in the sausage plant might lose their jobs? No, me neither.
Good example. In that case, I’d rather act in association with or prod my local M*P to raise the legal standards related to sausage contents in order to impose, for example, the use of more meat and less fat.
To be honest, if someone is making good, tasty sausages, I’ll buy them instead. That’s how it works. If someone chooses to produce a nasty product, and nobody buys it, that’s market forces. (Maybe some people like the product I regard as nasty. If enough do, then fair enough.)
If nobody is making good sausages, I’ll buy burgers instead.
In this case, we have the peculiar phenomenon of nobody making the product a large percentage of the public want to buy – that is a daily paper which leans to and gives good coverage to the independence case. Nobody seems to want my money. In that case I’ll keep it in my pocket, or more likely give it to Wings and Jack Devoy and the rest of them. I don’t see buying a product I don’t want and will only use to wrap the dirty cat litter as a reasonably course of action.
@Stoker:
The “collateral victims” due to a ‘No’ vote is far greater than that of any Unionist rag closing down and always will be.
Undoubtedly and 100% agreed on that point.
Nobody forced any of these employees to go and work for a
Unionist supporting Labour rag, that was their choice.
Not sure. Job positions in the press are not lavish. I can guarantee you that when you’ve got a job, you try as hard as you can to keep it, because if you lose it, you’re not gonna be hired in another rag the day after. And that mean you’ve got no choice but to put up with what your boss orders and swallow your own opinions…
I am sure some people working at the D.R. experience a mental torture everyday. But what choice do they have? Is there any alternative? All other rags are more or less pro-unionists, too… (assuming they’d hire).
@Morag:
In that case I’ll keep it in my pocket, or more likely give it to Wings and Jack Devoy and the rest of them. I don’t see buying a product I don’t want and will only use to wrap the dirty cat litter as a reasonably course of action.
Now we fully agree. Because if he gets sufficient money, maybe Stu’ will think about hiring someone who could leave its job (for example at the D.R.) and come to work together with him. At the end, if everybody transfers money from the D.R. to create new media that offer positions the workers of the D.R. can fill in, it’s a clear win.
AuldA,
Not sure?
What are you not sure about?
My point is that the DR has always been a Labour supporting Unionist rag. Therefore anyone and everyone in its employ went to work for it with their eyes wide open, they knew what the rag stood for when they applied for their jobs.
They can’t very well complain when the decades of lies and deceit they’ve been peddling the Scottish public finally catches up with them.
They made the choice to actively seek employment at that rag knowing what it stood for. Its not as if it was some sort of Liberal or Tory rag and then changed direction with the same staff.
It’s the DR we are talking about here, it’s Labours main tabloid mouthpiece in Scotland and it always has been, its demise can’t come quick enough.
They have repeatedly played their part in crushing our dreams so they can’t very well expect understanding and forgiveness.
Believe me, when it does bite the dust i will genuinely lose sleep over its closure – i’ll be partying for days on end.
I think they call it Karma.
🙂
Haven’t read through all the comments – so I may be repeating something …
How about the 45+% get together a take out a Class Action Suit against the Daily Record for misrepresentation of facts, misleading people by declaring falsely that the “Powers that Be” in London had made these promises (and would keep them!HA!) and for being downright gits!
That should help them bite the dust sooner.
This shows just how out of touch Tom Clarke is. A member of the Labour Party (North British Branch) who actually believed the vow?
Bad news Tom. There ain’t no Sanity Clause either…
There’s no such thing as a class action suit in Scots Law as far as I know. Or English Law either.
Ah, well – we can dream, Morag.
@Stoker :
They made the choice to actively seek employment at that rag knowing what it stood for. Its not as if it was some sort of Liberal or Tory rag and then changed direction with the same staff.
My point is: how can you be so affirmative? Did you interview all of them, and they told you it was deliberate? Do you have a signed document telling so?
Believe me, when it does bite the dust i will genuinely lose sleep over its closure – i’ll be partying for days on end.
Well, it begins like this. Then somebody will rejoice because the car of a bigwig NO-voter crashes even though their driver dies (‘After all, (s)he knew for who (s)he was working for, no?’). And then who knows where it ends. I am sorry, but this a path I will never tread.
Does anyone know, Is Sam Harty related to Tom Clark ? I’ve been told he is.
I have written a complaint re Daily Record Lies, waiting on a response.
They must not get away with deceiving the Scottish people.
It doesn’t matter how real or false the ‘vow’ was. What matters is that the propaganda worked. The gullible believed it and a no vote prevailed. They do not care it hasn’t been implemented, it just got rid of the immediate fear of Independence. We need to fight dirty…