The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Far beyond the pale horizon

Posted on June 07, 2023 by

In fairness, on one level it’s really funny.

Assuming you’ve already resigned yourself to independence never happening, that is.

Because this really is a joke. Having had eight years to come up with a full suite of indy strategies, and having already delayed the “special conference” (tickets £10, enough seats available for a maximum of 3% of SNP members) for over three months – or seven months if you count from the date of the Supreme Court judgement – we’re now told that it’ll take another FOUR months to actually digest what it discusses.

And it’s not like it’s a complicated decision. There are exactly two options:

(1) Maintain the proven-failure strategy of feebly begging for a Section 30 from Westminster and slinking away meekly when they refuse yet again. Since we already know there isn’t a hope in hell of it working for about a million incredibly obvious reasons, what Option 1 really amounts to is “just give up entirely”.

(2) Adopt the only remaining credible policy, as devised by this website: from now on, every election is a referendum on independence.

One of those is a total non-starter and everybody knows it, so it’s hard to see what the conference is even for. In reality, though, it’s to decide whether the SNP abandons any meaningful pursuit of independence for the forseeable future.

And obviously even its endlessly gullible remaining members are going to find that one hard to choke down, so the party has chosen to postpone the fateful day for about the 20th time, in order to guzzle down as much gravy as humanly possible in however much time it has left.

Humza Yousaf now has two and a half weeks to decide which mast he’s going to pin his flag to with his conference speech. What he recommends will tell us what he’s made of. We very much suspect, readers, that it’s going to taste like chicken.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

0 to “Far beyond the pale horizon”

  1. Ian McCubbin says:

    Well it’s a rock and a hard place.
    Sounds like you have it in one.
    SNP gives up independence cause.
    Like you I wonder how Useless will spin it.

  2. WingsOverFrance says:

    Iain Blackford said on the radio this morning that Humza will surprise us.

    All hail Humza!

  3. Dan says:

    Well aye, but chicken will make a welcome change after years of carrots…

  4. John Main says:

    Tell me again why it matters what Yousaf says or does?

    Oh wait, I remember. It’s because we are all collectively supposed to pretend that rather than being a flawed and fraudulent process, the pathetic travesty that saw him elected as leader of the SNP and First Minister of Scotland was actually all legal and above board.

  5. steph says:

    Maybe they’ll play their final Hail Mary card of formally announcing they’re the Scottish Devolution Party, to put them formally in the pseudo-progressive, pseudo-socialist, unionist space of SLab. Plenty of careers in opposition for those who matter, anyway.

  6. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    About sums things up in the SNP the official pro devolution party.

    I think they should simply come out and say that is what they are.

    I would like to see a merger between Scottish Labour and the SNP they are so alike now.

    Alba ISP and other pro independence parties can get on with the real job of gaining our country’s independence.

    As for any remaining members of the SNP what are you doing there?

  7. Muscleguy says:

    Looks like nothing will happen. The ISP has announced it will stand candidates in the GE. This is to put pressure on the Devo managing SNP. If we cause them to lose seats then they will deserve it. I am mulling putting myself forward as a candidate. BTW we pledge to do a Sinn Fein and not take up our seats. Both to avoid having to swear fealty to a monarch with no legitimacy over Scotland and that the fight for Independence is here in Scotland not in Westminster which is a sideshow.

    After we have indicated democratically that we wish to be independent other countries recognising us will put realpolitik pressure on Westminster to come to the negotiating table (ideally under international supervision). That is their proper and only role.

  8. Kevin Cargill says:

    Ach leave them to it. The momentum is now with Alba and ISP. In a few years the SNP will be a swear word from the past! Those we still have a modicum of respect for better jump ship very quickly as their names will be forgotten and that respect will disappear into history as fast as an Aztec bar!

  9. George Ferguson says:

    Continuity candidates go for continuity. The SNP are not reading the room. They brought back Kevin Pringle who says the SNP will hold their electoral ground. In other circumstances I would applaud his re-employment but a big shock coming up at Rutherglen from the SNP. I will spread bet the loss of 30 plus SNP MPs at Westminster and the sad fact for them is this was a crisis made in Holyrood.

  10. Cenchos says:

    Well, they do say ouroboros tastes like chicken.

  11. wullie says:

    “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

    Abraham Lincoln

    Except the Scots. You can take the proverbial out of them 24 7 365 Decade after decade. Century after century.

  12. Republicofscotland says:

    Yousless said it himself that he is the continuity candidate now the continuity FM. I very much doubt that it will be option two as again Yousless said that Sturgeon is the smartest person he knows, and if she couldn’t deliver independence NO ONE CAN.

    The SNP under Yousless as with Sturgeon will finger point at Westminster and make hot air promises on independence like they’ve done since Sturgeon took the reins and now Yousless will continue down this road.

    In my opinion its now a case of the SNP getting what they can until the public cotton on that the party’s finished as an indy party, and that its now serving its own interests.

  13. Fraser Reid says:

    I can already smell the carrots being warmed up….

  14. Stuart MacKay says:

    I know this is stating the blindingly, f**king obvious but the SNP is in a state of organisational paralysis. There is literally nobody who knows what to do, or even what “what” is. The party is no longer fit for purpose.

    Given that the selection process for up and comings is hopelessly rigged to support the status quo, there is no way this situation will resolve itself any time soon. Defeat at the ballot box won’t change a thing. Unless there is some kind of palace coup or extinction event we’re looking at a future of inaction and lots of it for as long as you can stomach.

    Before everyone jumps up and says “The Tories/MI5 dunnit” this is a problem across the “democracies”. The political/managerial class simply cannot deliver change in any form. The limit of their talent is more or less keeping things the way they are – assuming there are no adverse events.

    A top to bottom to top clean out and a completely new way of doing things appears to be the only way out of this induced coma. Short of torches and pitchforks, the only hope would appear to be the rise of an Alexander to cut the knot – no, not that one.

    It’s a fascinating case study in failure, if only you could wipe away the tears or laughter/frustration to contemplate it.

  15. KT Lorimer says:

    Step outside the activist/political bubble folks – the majority out there probably want independence but they have more important things to do than discuss all this – it is them we need to inspire and to do so compromise will be needed – Mr Salmond knows this.

  16. Matt Quinn says:

    WingsOverFrance says: 7 June, 2023 at 6:51 pm

    “Iain Blackford said on the radio this morning that Humza will surprise us.”

    Unless he does a stunning and brave, not to mention uncannily accurate Freddie Mercury tribute act… no, I don’t actually think he will.

  17. Tony Foster says:

    Disappointed that the forthcoming retirement of the Humble Crofter / Millionaire Banker hasn’t been the focus of today’s comment….

  18. Astonished says:

    Surely there must come a time when no one believes a word the nuSNP say. Not even their members.

    Mr Salmond has merely asked them to put their country before their own self-interest. Mr Wishart has chosen self-interest. No one should be surprised.

    The rest don’t want to answer hence the delaying tactics. This ploy reveals they are trying to find a palatable way to choose self-interest. When there isn’t one.

    This is a simple choice: Scotland or self-interest ? At present, the nuSNP are unable to deal with the reality of binary issues.

    P.S. Just ask Police Scotland about what stupid delaying tactics does to your reputation ?

  19. Casper1066 says:

    I can’t tell you how f#kin angry this makes me. Even tho, I knew this was coming……

  20. George Ferguson says:

    @KT Lorimer 8:05pm
    Does Alex really know though. And before you say anything I am on record on this blog many times saying his Government was very competent. It seems to me, he has been confined by the Alba membership.
    (But not by me as a member). There is only about six big things for the Scottish People to consider.
    1 Head of State. A Republic if you vote Alba. The real position if you are serious about Independence is a Head of State Constitutional referendum.
    2 Membership of the EU. Alba have come up with a half way house of EFTA. A reasonable compromise but again a Referendum is preferable.
    3 Membership of Nato. Referendum appropriate.
    4 Left wing economics and higher taxes?. Aye sure an Independence vote winner. Appeal to the balanced economy.
    5 Structural, Procedural, Process Incontinence of Holyrood as a Parliament. Major overhaul of the Scottish Parliament.
    6 Decentralised funding for Scottish local Government and the Independence of Scottish Institutions.

  21. PacMan says:

    Of course the SNP are going to ‘officially decide’ any independence strategy. They always stand on the ‘Lend us your vote’ platform to be seen to stand up against the current popular media bogeyman in order to sustain electoral success. Whether it is Brexit, the Tories, austerity, climate, whatever, it doesn’t matter.

  22. Daisy Walker says:

    Now is not the time… Covid… Economy… Brexit…. Environment… New Leader time to establish himself

    Need to focus on obtaining Maximum Powers under Devolution, and use them to the full to

    To persuade the soft no’s

    Obtain consistent**** (NB – ‘consistent’ has no definition in this context and is a moveable goal post) polls showing support for Indy over 60%**** (NB – this figure to be raised when 60% is actually obtained….

    Democratic outrage that Westminster will not be able to withstand….

    Blah, blah, blah

    Sadly for the Sometime Never Party members they will lap it up.

  23. Philip Crawford says:

    The truth is that the SNP has not made a case for independence in the sense of how it would work, nor have they tried to live it (and if they have, they’ve made a proper mess of it). Really they are not campaigning for independence at all, they have been campaigning for a referendum. A referendum seems like a step in the right direction but in the SNP’s hands it isn’t. First they won’t be given one, and even if they were, by not preparing properly, they won’t win it, which for them is just fine because gravy is gravy. Cynicism to one side, the early years of independence will be difficult for the well known reasons, but because they steadfastly refuse to prepare the electorate or the economy this will defeat them at any poll. Basically, they just aren’t serious.

  24. Patsy Millar says:


  25. chic.mcgregor says:

    Matt Quinn

    ‘WingsOverFrance says: 7 June, 2023 at 6:51 pm

    “Iain Blackford said on the radio this morning that Humza will surprise us.”

    Unless he does a stunning and brave, not to mention uncannily accurate Freddie Mercury tribute act… no, I don’t actually think he will.’

    As I said on last thread, if Humza watches RRR he might end up surprising himself.

    Maybe HUMZA should watch RRR. Just a thought.

  26. Derek says:

    Regarding Margaret Ferrier and the possible by-election, those on Today this morning were positively salivating at the thought of a Labour gain – and, therefore, the downfall of the SNP.

    They don’t understand that the SNP losing votes doesn’t equal Labour gaining votes. If it does come to a by-election, it’ll be interesting to see what happens.

  27. Robert Hughes says:

    Far beyond the Event Horizon . In the Black Hole of Nu SNP credibility .

    ” leave a light on for us ”

    Sorry , too late , all light and matter ( and intelligence ) has been crushed by the awesome forces within that Singularity of Stupidity & Cupidity ..aka.. GrEEnSnP .

    I hear wee Blackfraud is ” stepping down ” – that’ll be a short journey . To spend more time with his chef , presumably .

    We await the memoirs – MY GOLDEN YEARS WITH NICOLA – with breathe abated

  28. AnneDon says:

    The only thing I can see changing the SNP is a serious defeat if they manage to trigger a by-election in Margaret Ferrier’s constituency. Even with that, it’s more likely they will blame her (as they have from the start), and continue their road to ruin.

  29. Matt Quinn says:

    chic.mcgregor says: 7 June, 2023 at 9:11 pm

    “Maybe HUMZA should watch RRR. Just a thought.”

    I had to Google ‘RRR’… ? Maybe he should just settle down with “The Great British Sewing Bee” on iPlayer? – It’s all a bit of a stitch up after all.

  30. Shug says:

    I see my Blackford is standing down.

    What ever you think of him he at least has the ability to see the approaching cliff. I believe him a sound character restricted by the Nicola clan.

    Standing down at least he won’t be stained by the coming bloodbath as the inherently stupid or assets lose their jobs.

    This all comes down to their preferred strategy, I believe driven by plants, and the dishonesty protected by the police and the courts (can only imagine the powers authorising that) and the conspiracy to jail Salmond on the basis of perjury, lies and innuendo, some of which persists in the NGO funded by the government.

    Once a group loses their integrity they are lost for ever. This is what we are seeing.Can’t wait to see what they give Nicola.

    Westminster has a very bad habit of destroying their agents to hide the evidence. What ever they promised it will be removed at the last moment.

    Will she end up sharing a cell with Jillian Assange or Mussa Kussa

  31. Antoine Roquentin says:

    Kevin Pringle, a skillful enough individual. Be sure of one thing: he’ll know exactly what’s going on around him and quickly deduce what the odds are of being able to turn the situation around. As things presently stand, I’ll give him a couple of months max and he’ll be gone, if only to salvage his reputation!

  32. chic.mcgregor says:


    Nice one.

    I described RRR in the context of colonialism a few threads back. It is about the Indian struggle for independence against the British Raj. Albeit romanticised and converted into blockbuster entertainment mode. Some folk said they would watch it.

    Basically, if you are a Scot and ever wondered how non Scots around the World responded to ‘Braveheart’ so warmly, watching RRR might be a pointer.

  33. Matt Quinn says:

    To be honest Chic I don’t follow the ‘threads’ round here at all closely… because there’s no real forum structure; particularly for something that mainly BTL traffic.

    …Being a Scot I found ‘Braveheart’ right up there along with C. John Taylor’s chain of Highland Art exhibitions. To be fair, for many years I did wonder how/why non Scots around the World apparently responded warmly to those. More recently, I’ve seen the Tripadvisor reviews. 😉

  34. Tinto Chiel says:

    Couldn’t care less about these SNP imposters now but Stu a Roxy Music fan?

    Wow! Never saw that coming.

  35. Shug says:

    Where’s Nicola hiding these days.

    What an absolute failure she is

  36. Breastplate says:

    Robert Hughes,
    Absolutely correct.
    I’m sure that Blackford’s reflection is shaking it’s head in shame every time he looks in the mirror.
    He and his cronies have served Scotland very poorly indeed.

  37. Breastplate says:

    You may see Blackford as a sound character but I find it difficult to see him as nothing but a rat deserting a sinking ship.

  38. George Ferguson says:

    From June 12th you are going to have to be careful on what you say on social media. A monitoring Scot Parliament force will be assessing your comments for hatred or worse combat stuff against our MSPs. What’s measured will be acted upon. I am particularly worried about the escalation mechanism. Police Scotland represent everybody or nobody. “Peeble them wi stanes”. Aye sure any criticism will get you arrested.

  39. David Hannah says:

    I can’t stand Kieth Brown. He’s totally stiff and detached and entirely uninspiring.

    Here’s a guy that signed up to fight to defend the Falkland islands from Argentina. Now has no fight in him what so ever for Scotland and Independence. No fight. No gumption no spine.

    Shocking. Justice secretary. There’s no justice in Scotland with this corrupt SNP.

  40. A Scot Abroad says:

    Muscle guy, at 7:26pm,

    which other countries do you suppose might recognise a Scotland with a newly elected “de facto referendum” party newly elected, and how much realpolitik weight do they bring to bear on Westminster?

    Because I can’t think of any. None of the EU, because the four EU nations with credible secessionist movements will veto that. Not the USA, Canada, Oz, South Korea, Japan, the Norwegians, Mexico. And after that, you are getting down to scabby countries that don’t amount to much. And China and the other place whose capital is Moscow, and neither of them are carrying much weight.

    Perhaps you have North Korea and Iran in mind?

  41. Luigi says:

    Sigh. Another massive nothing burger about to be announced, methinks. Weak, non-leaders. They don’t have a clue what to do and are way too proud (and terrified) to seek the help and advice of those that do. Turned their backs on the wider independence movement. Trying to look decisive with non-independence issues, failing at every turn. At least they are consistent. Their Achilles heel is their predictability.

  42. David Hannah says:

    I do wonder actually if our SNP MPs while sitting in London have transitioned from Scottish Nationalists to English Nationalists. It seems that way to me.

  43. George Ferguson says:

    @A Scot Abroad 11:39pm
    The muscular Unionism we got promised. It will ultimately be a failed Union strategy. If we don’t live in an equal Union them other methods will present themselves to the people. I am surprised one combat service veteran needs to articulate to another combat service veteran of the need of a safety valve. Muscular Unionism is a failed strategy. Hey I should know the UK Government sold out the Unionism of Northern Ireland.

  44. 100%Yes says:

    The SNP just lifted its Kilt and exposed its brown eye.

  45. A Scot Abroad says:

    George Ferguson,

    safety valves are very important indeed. We can agree on that. But this equal union business seems to me to be the unsettled matter since 1707. The view from south of the border is probably “you are 9.5%, so you get 9.5% of the input”. And the view from north of the border is “we are an equal union, so we get 50% of the vote”.

    I don’t think that’s ever been resolved. And it probably should be.

  46. Kcor says:

    “so the party has chosen to postpone the fateful day for about the 20th time, in order to guzzle down as much gravy as humanly possible in however much time it has left.”

    There is no humanity in any of the bastards.

  47. Breeks says:

    Fk ’em all. All of them. Fk them.

    There are 14 of them now branded rats for stabbing Margaret Ferrier in the back.

    Not only are these gravy train slurping parasites conning the entire Independence Movement, not only are they incapable of delivering Independence, but IF these grifters were in the driving seat when Scotland secured it’s Independence, I have every confidence they’d drive Scotland over a cliff.

    If these were our generals, only a fool would go into battle knowing the odds and the perfidious enemy we face.

    I honestly don’t believe I could be in the same room with these grifters. Rage would overtake me. When people say you’d either laugh or cry, they’re forgetting the third option.

    For the greed and wealth of tax profiteering, Manius Aquilius was executed by having the molten gold he craved so much poured down his throat. The Romans didn’t fk about.

    I don’t know the first thing about her, but right now I’d trust a single lady who spoke for barely a minute on Debate Night TV, before I’d trust these feckless charlatan tossers in the SNP.

    If they love Devolution so much, then we should brick them up inside the place forever.

    To harsh? Try me.

  48. Jason Hoffman says:

    The SNP know that they’re going to lose seats, maybe a lot of seats, in the next election, so there is no way that they’ll make that election about independence.

    The UNionist media would have a field day!

    So in order to continue with the WM-bad-crushing-Scottish-democracy narrative (see also gender reform and DRS), it’ll be all about WM is denying Scotland it’s democratic right to hold endless referenda on indy until the right result happens.

    Meanwhile salaries and pentions in WM and Holyrood and local authorities will continue to be paid. And that will be the strategy – ie do nothing except bleat about WM.

    Indy will never happen as long as the SNP as running the campaign. It will only happen when they start working with other groups and parties.

  49. Shug says:

    Scot abroad.

    You keep talking about session.

    We are not successionists. We are terminating an international agreement.

    Really like the UK in Ireland and the good Friday agreement.

    Having said that our termination will be driven by democracy, and not the dishonesty displayed by Westminster.

    What shift are you on today

  50. Dorothy Devine says:

    Jason Hoffman, that may be precisely why they use the next GE as a vote on Indy – how to destroy the independence question for all time.

  51. stuart mctavish says:

    October eh?

    Look like a prima facae opportunity for our institutionally racist society to charge the self proclaimed continuity candidate with election fraud vis a vis the no ifs/ but carrot.

    Better yet if they manage to charge all that openly supported his candidature as accessories (verification of actual voting/ membership details notwithstanding) such that the duplicitous MPs can be suspended en masse – and the assault on devolution, that the minister(s) for the return of ginger bottle’s been gaslit into fearing, can begin in earnest.

  52. Beauvais says:

    This SNP “special conference” puts in mind the Python sketch of the annual meeting of the Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things.

    The society president drones on about how successful the society has been in the past year at “putting things on top of other things”. Until he brings to the attention of the meeting that the Staffordshire branch has failed in the past year to put a single thing on top of another thing and calls on the branch to explain.

    The Staffordshire delegate stands up and says that his branch just feels it’s all a bit silly. Whereupon the president has a quick epiphany and says “I suppose your right, oh well meeting adjourned forever” and walks out.

    Like that Society, the meaningless SNP just ought to wind up its business and quit.

  53. desimond says:

    I suspect Humza’s surprise will be to attack Labour and just ignore the Tories bar the usual Sunak is Boris’ puppet gags ( Pot and kettle time).

    Suspect his will be the longer term look, and he will set them up as “Both just as bad” and try and play the “But I will defend us with all my might” birthday caird p1sh.

    I have a sneaky and ill feeling we will see Ian Blackford being put front and centre of the recently suggested “Non political front for Independence”, in other words, doomed to drown in his massive pool of empty words.

    As for Rutherglen…cue folk like James Kelly all over Scottish Media trumpeting how people are connecting with Scottish Labour, all the while he and the Scottish Media will be ignoring the monster the party is becoming down South

  54. Xaracen says:

    A Scot Abroad said;

    “The view from south of the border is probably “you are 9.5%, so you get 9.5% of the input”. And the view from north of the border is “we are an equal union, so we get 50% of the vote”.

    I don’t think that’s ever been resolved. And it probably should be.”

    Of course it’s never been resolved, because as long as it remains unresolved, the English establishment which runs Westminster gets enormous unwarranted power over Scotland, giving it the means to ‘legally’ steal Scotland’s wealth with impunity. It’s that arrogant selfishness that overrules any will to a proper resolution.

    It’s perfectly possible to resolve, as I’ve pointed out several times now.

    England’s far larger population gets them far larger representation in Parliament, so they get their 90.5% input. But that input is solely English but doesn’t, on its own, give it any authority over Scotland. That’s important because England simply isn’t entitled to any authority over Scotland, and there is no good reason it should have.

    Scotland gets its 9.5% representation in Parliament, and that input is solely Scottish and also doesn’t, on its own, give it any authority over England.

    Two partners, neither with any legitimate authority over the other, a fact that is solidly reinforced by their separate and fully equal sovereignties, means that there can be only two votes on any matter being considered in Parliament; one from the 90.5% via simple majority vote, and one from the 9.5% via a separate simple majority vote. The final simple majority vote just pits the two outcomes against each other; two votes in favour, and the matter passes, else it doesn’t.

    Fair to each of the two partners, as it fully respects both of their sovereignties, and fully democratic, having two layers of simple majority voting, with everyone entitled to a vote getting one.

    The English establishment will hate it because it removes their unwarranted power to treat their Scottish partner like dirt! And if anyone thinks that’s being unfair to England, then you are the problem!

  55. Robinov Vilecybernatski says:

    The only thing that needs to be said and won’t be is when Mairi McAllan gets up and says that drivel about WM buckling when polls are at 60% “Are you really just a fucking idiot? Are you all just a bunch of lying, toadying, fucking idiots? Step aside, yer an embarrassment to Scotland!”

  56. Shug says:

    It is quite interesting to hear the Viceroy talking about the importance of a common market across the UK in relation to recycling ginger bottles when it does not seem to apply where:

    Power is concerned we pay more than our souther partners to receive electricity and more to generate and connect to the system

    Water is concerned and Wales receive nothing for the water they deliver to England

    Where northern Ireland is concerned where they are allowed to enforce the higher standards if the EU rather than the shoddy standards of the UK.

    Interest rates set to suit the wider London market than the whole UK

    Alcohol tax where Scottish whisky producers face much higher tax than English beer and wine producers

    It seems people like Alistair Jack have a somewhat one sided view of this market.

    If protecting Scottish interests are so low on his rader I am really surprised that a significant club like the Royal Company of Archers could tolerate such an individual. I would think such a significant body would have standards of behaviour aligned to protecting the interests of Scotland high on their agenda but apparently not.

  57. 100%Yes says:

    I would suggest people watch debate night this week, the SNP tosser mentioned devolution umpteen times and got nowhere with Pat Kane or the audience.

    This is a sudden change from the SNP from promoting S30 to lets make devolution work. The SNP in the past has believed it could wait until the UKG decided it can’t deny democracy anymore and just give in to the SNP demands for a S30 order. Well the answer is no, the UK isn’t going to give the SNP a S30 ever, not that the SNP wants one. But the idea that we Indy voters go out and vote SNP for devolution and that no one really notices that the SNP are now saying they are a Unionist party wanting your Indy vote, is ridiculous. This idea of the SNP promoting devolution and that the electorate vote for them for that reason has now dawned on the MSP’s, MP’s as a non starter (I hope). If Scots want devolution they can vote for any number of other parties, it doesn’t have to be the SNP so what is the point of the SNP?

    I’m not surprised Brown has come out with this shit, because voting for SNP for better devolution isn’t going down well with the electorate when the SNP has been a shit in government for the last 9yrs in a devolved parliament and their policies don’t go down well with the public either. So where does the SNP go, well this is what the 4 months is for, for the SNP to figure that out.

    The SNP has given up on EU membership, Independence and now promoting Devo-max as they did years ago see below.

  58. Charles (not the R one) says:

    I am no politician, and I cannot understand why so many people seem to assume that everyone who votes SNP is inevitably also voting for Scottish Independence from the UK. I think the two things are not one and the same. This is perhaps evidenced by the electoral successes of the SNP over the years, against the 2014 Referendum figures.

    It seems to me that very many voters in Scotland voted SNP for years because (a) the SNP was not Conservative, (b) the SNP was not Labour nor Liberal, (c) the SNP is left wing, and (d) the SNP was local. The SNP was given its chance. Now we are discovering what the individuals who were and are running the SNP have done with the opportunity we, the voters, gave them. It is NOT GOOD. WE HAVE BEEN LET DOWN by a bunch of egotists, seeking self-aggrandisement and enrichment at the expense of the SNP’s members and the electorate.

    I suggest that while some or many of those who voted SNP may also be supporters of Scottish independence, by no means all of them were, or are. It is quite clear that many people who voted SNP must also be in favour of the Union continuing. In particular, I suggest a lot of people may think that the political situation in UK and around the world does not favour Scotland going independent at this time nor in the foreseeable future.

    The SNP as a party made a colossal blunder over all those years by assuming the electorate was / is STUPID, and that its supporters would continue to support it forever, no matter what. On both counts, the SNP leadership was disastrously WRONG.

    Now, the SNP ‘chickens are coming home to roost’, while some SNP ‘rats are deserting the sinking SNP ship’, probably retiring to live comfortably on their publicly-funded pensions.

    Meantime, the rest of us, the people of Scotland, can do very little other than to sit it out, and see what transpires. For the SNP, and Scotland, and the UK at large, I fear it’s going to get worse before it starts to get better.

  59. socratesmacsporran says:


    The Royal Com,pany of Archers is a body of Scots, put there to protect the King of England from coming to any harm when in Scotland.

    The interests of a wider Scotland, or its people, are of no concern to this Establishment body.

  60. robertkknight says:

    The SNP is to Indy what cooking oil is to calculus… Totally and utterly unrelated!

  61. 100%Yes says:

    From Brown’s statement you have to believe that Ash Regan hoping to speak at conference is never going to happen.

    The SNP are so anti-Indy that everyone can see it and its causing them no end of problems.

  62. Dorothy Devine says:

    Charles ( not the R one), It won’t necessarily get better but I agree with you ,it could get a helluva lot worse.

  63. Chas says:

    The hierarchy in the SNP are incompetent. That fact is crystal clear for anyone with even half a brain. The resignation of the previous top brass has exposed the absolute dross that lies beneath.
    However, I have to give them credit for realising that Independence is dead for the foreseeable future. The majority of electorate will simply not vote for it. The BPHB will of course disagree.
    The Party has now swung away from Independence and is now simply trying to secure the positions, salaries, expenses and pension pots for their fearless, brave politicians by any means possible.
    The saddest thing of all is that 25%-30% of the electorate will fall for it………………….again.
    Who in their right mind would now vote for the SNP?

  64. Shug says:


    I am just saying all clubs have standard and I am surprised the club secretary ignores the failings of Mr Jack in protecting his lovely union.

    Indeed his actions act against that very union by creating disharmony across the union

  65. Charles (not the R one) says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    8 June, 2023 at 10:37 am

    Charles (not the R one), It won’t necessarily get better but I agree with you, it could get a helluva lot worse.

    Yes Dorothy, and that means we (the ordinary folks of Scotland) should take a big breath, and start working what we want for the best, right now. That’s the best for us and our families, and Scotland generally.

    Independence right now might be a luxury we can ill afford.
    What really matters for most of us is our own economic viability today, tomorrow, and in the foreseeably near future. That is I feel sure, the real ambition by far the majority of us aspire to, even if sub-consciously. It is built into each of us to try to do well, and we do it without even thinking about it, all day, every day.

    It is very clear now, that no-one in the SNP and Scottish Goverment has the ability or the true and decent ambition to be entrusted with government. Is there anyone fit to do it? Who? Please tell me – line them up.

    Remember, the AIM in the LONG TERM is the success and economic comfort of Scotland’s PEOPLE, every single one of us. That ambition might not be well-served by blindly charging to independence now, regardless of the consequences.

    Now is the time for a whole lot of SMART THINKING.

  66. Michael Laing says:

    @ Charles (not the R one) at 10.26am: Given that current support for independence is considerably higher than support for the SNP, I don’t think your case holds water. I very much doubt that people who don’t support independence have been voting for the SNP, as they’ve had four other unionist/devolutionist parties to choose from.

    Rather than SNP-voters not being independence supporters, I suspect that it was the result of the 2014 referendum that was falsified. It has never been explained why there was such passionate grassroots support for the ‘Yes’ campaign while the ‘No’ campaign was nothing more than a fake, astroturf campaign; yet the turnout in the referendum somehow managed to be lowest in those areas with the strongest ‘Yes’ support. That simply doesn’t add up. It seems obvious to me that those most passionate about the independence issue, whether for or against, would be those most likely to vote in the referendum. Also, there was never an on-line poll prior to the referendum which showed a majority for ‘No’, even in unionist newspapers and on anti-independence web-sites. Were opponents of independence uniquely incapable of voting in on-line polls? I can’t see why that would be the case.

    I don’t know what strings are being pulled or by whom, but it seems to me that the true level of support for independence is being deliberately misrepresented.

  67. Chas says:

    Charles (not the R one) says:

    You mean to say economic viability ie MONEY is important?
    I and only a few others on here agree with you 100%.
    Unfortunately, if you read past posts, it appears to be a bit of an irrelevance to many.

    300 year old guff, colonialism and ‘it’s just no fair’ are far more important! They will eventually change their viewpoint but it will take time.

  68. Luigi says:

    Fourteen cowardly ("Tractor" - Ed) SNP MPs voted in favour of the recall of Margaret Ferrier, destroying the career of a hard-working, well liked and respected MP. Their names? Well it’s now on record. The usual suspects

    Lest we forget.

  69. sarah says:

    The economic question is the simplest to deal with. A country that keeps its entire income and assets is better off than one which receives less than 60% income and none of its assets.

  70. jockmcx says:

    Blue tories out red tories in…red tories out blue tories in…
    England love thier tories…

    What do the snp love?…the hookey cokey?

  71. A C Bruce says:

    Scotland is fucked with those nonentities in government. Ben McPherson – good grief!

    The worst thing that ever happened to the independence movement, apart from the No vote in 2014, was Alex Salmond standing down as leader of the SNP.

    My heart sank then but little did I know the calibre of people that would infest the SNP hierarchy in the years that followed.

    I despair for Scotland. Is all lost?

  72. socratesmacsporran says:

    The Linesman leads FMQs on the ongoing ferry scandal.

    I cannot help feeling, the SNP’s only failure in this is in not sacking the entire Cal-Mac board lang syne, since nearly all the ferry problems can be traced back to the company’s managemen.


    I doubt very much that the Royal Company of Archers gives a toss about “The Union.” They don’t see us as being in a Union. A lot of their members are the descendants of Burns’ “Parcel o’ Rogues”. They have lang syne assimilated into The English Establishment, they think they own Scotland.

  73. Dan says:

    Floating the old trope that it’s the wrong time for Scotland returning to self-governance are effectively the words of those content with the union, or I guess thick folk that don’t comprehend that the longer it’s delayed the more difficult it will be to build a viable society as we’ll have been further stripped of our assets, resources, and communities by the parasitic actions of being governed by London Rule.
    Small to medium sized fully empowered countries can change tack quicker to adapt to the times through policy changes than larger entities.
    Those who keep shouting “show me the money” which they’d hope to get in a future fully empowered self-governing Scotland seem obvious to their surroundings as they stand on the deck of BoatyMcGreatBrittaniaBoatFace slowly sinking.

    @ George Ferguson

    Have you been able to start developing that paper on energy policy you previously eluded to? I’ve heard of another individual who may be putting something energy related together for Alba. Be a pity if there was a lot of duplicated effort and time being put in which might be more productive if it was coordinated.

  74. wullie says:

    Not only are our assets being stripped and looted b y our supposed political representatives, you know those people who are supposed to look after OUR interests. You could say that our political representatives are trafficking our resources to be abused by another power.

  75. James Che says:


    Aye xaracen, And if you extinguish the Scottish parliament from sitting in Westminster parliament for over 300 years before any Scottish parliament representative can be selected,
    The % of SCOTLANDS PARLIAMENT representatives is reduced consideriby.

    The etymology of that Act of agreement that was ratified leaves Scotland with no representative in Westminster parliament at all parliament.

    In fact legally it leaves Scotland outside of participating or having % representation at all within the treaty of union since 1707,

    A blind man could see this. Clinging on to the “Concept” of a treaty of a union of equal partners or uneqaul partners, is a misnomer,

    A closed extinguished Scottish parliament since 1707 cannot have or send representatives.

    Regardless of Westminsters condition or position since 1707, Scotland has been unable to send representatives down to Westminster.

    One part of the agreement of articles promised that Scotland would have representation from the Scottish parliament,
    Another section of those article cancelled that promise out, it extinguished that promise.

    Then after the new British parliament of old Westminster ” reopened” in its third session , Westminster was deciding which… non-members, of a ….non-existent Scottish parliament would sit in Westminster,

    Ie) The Scots whom had been bought and payed for, but were no longer members of a extinguished parliament.

    Scotland nor its parliament have not been in the treaty of parliamentary union from 1707 onwards.

    Just because Westminster pretends its so, does mean it is so,
    in terms of legality, it is just a concept from a agreement that extinguished one member of the treaty of parliamentary union by the other member of the treaty of parliamentary union when it was ratified.

  76. Johnlm says:

    What do ex-MPs do to earn a crust?
    I was on Uig pier waiting for a ferry one day whilst Ex- MP Calum MacDonald was walking up and down saying the equivalent of “buy, buy., Sell, sell’
    Money is not a problem even when they have retired from organised crime, methinks.

  77. Breastplate says:

    “You are saying the same thing over and over, Scotland can’t afford independence. That’s it, that’s your argument and I and many others remain unimpressed. As I’ve said before, this argument is as old as the hills.

    Where the money is to come from which will defray this enormous annual expense of three millions sterling, and all those other debts, I know not; unless the author of Common Sense, or some other ingenious projector, can discover the Philosopher’s Stone, by which iron and other base metals may be transmuted into gold. Certain I am that our commerce and agriculture, the two principal sources of our wealth, will not support such an expense. The whole of our exports from the Thirteen United Colonies, in the year 1769, amounted only to £2,887,898 sterling; which is not so much, by near half a million, as our annual expense would be were we independent of Great Britain. Those exports; with no inconsiderable part of the profits arising from them, it is well known, centered finally in Britain to pay the merchants and manufacturers there for goods we had imported thence—and yet left us still in debt! What then must our situation be, or what the state of our trade, when oppressed with such a burden of annual expense! When every article of commerce, every necessary of life, together with our lands, must be heavily taxed to defray that expense!
    —Charles Inglis, 1776, Pennsylvania”

    There you have it, Charles, the Union’s argument hasn’t changed in 250 years.
    That’s when the Empire was much better off, doing a roaring trade ransacking and pillaging every country it had its greedy little fingers in, and there was quite a selection of countries to loot back then.

    Nowadays the thought of poor old England having to stand on its own two feet is frightening for them.
    The future looks bleak for them, a fantastic amount of incompetence of Westminster government has created a National Debt that has no hope of ever being re paid yet have the audacity to accuse a future independent Scotland of not doing any better.

    The idea that removing English fingers from Scotlands pockets is somehow a bad idea and that we should let Westminster drive Scotland up Shit Creek without a paddle or a boat , is thinking emanating from a person with severely impaired logical faculties or Chas the Chimp.

    Now I do understand that there enough people with the same brain wattage as burnt out bulb that believe that England funds the entire known Universe but this has simply been proven wrong and wrong again.

    The future is not bright, the future is red, white and blue.

  78. Lorna Campbell says:

    Do you think they’ll munch this carrot, fellow MSPs and MPs? You have to hand it to them, though: they never stop trying to gull us all, do they?

  79. Neil MacKenzie says:

    Not all of us are endlessly gullible.

  80. George Ferguson says:

    @Dan 12:14pm
    Yes I have in mind a coat hanger to drape proposals on and have developed ideas around the methods and implementation of returning some energy infrastructure and assets to public ownership. Golden Share via license conditions and so on. Babysitting, new voluntary work and Summer commitments like holidays means the Autumn is a realistic target for me. I will probanly just post the paper to Alba. I think it is good others are working on it. Different perspectives etc. Enjoy the weather.

  81. Iain More says:

    Sic a parcel o ("Tractor" - Ed)s in a nation.

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top