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‘Cybernat’ is a loser’s word

Posted on May 31, 2013 by

This week’s papers had a story about ‘cybernats’ posting rude messages on social media about Olympic cyclist Sir Chris Hoy’s opposition to Scottish independence.

cybermugs1

For the uninitiated, ‘cybernat’ is the term used in Scottish politics to refer, ostensibly, to slightly mad old-school nationalists who post vile, personalised attacks on their political opponents. Some politicos in Scotland don’t seem to understand, though, that this attack doesn’t really work as a political device as it seeks to apply a pejorative to the SNP when everyone knows it can be applied to some supporters of all political parties. Take a look at the comment pages of any UK newspaper.

Significantly, though, the same term ‘cybernat’ – coined, presumably, around 1993 by some old guy confused by the “thae computers” – is deployed more often in reference to the SNP’s enthusiasm for social media. It’s an attempt to portray the SNP as obsessed with trifling technology when what really matters is soft, black M&S shoes on the ground.

Well, whatever the SNP is doing from a ‘permanent campaign’ point of view can’t be all bad – they do have an overall majority in a parliament designed precisely to prevent that outcome, after all. And one of the things they’re doing which isn’t bad is the very thing their opponents use the term ‘cybernat’ to decry.

Take a look at the websites of the four main political parties in my constituency of Falkirk where Labour runs the Council:

SNP
Labour
Conservatives
Lib Dems

Four?  OK, the Tories and Lib Dems haven’t bothered at all. So let’s just consider the SNP and Labour sites.

The SNP site is bright and cheery, pretty much up to date and contains multiple references to local issues. The posts extend from ‘lines to take’ and each presents a political message in language both accessible and apparently reasonable. The site is aimed at normal folk – voters, if you will. The Labour site, untouched for five months, has a few old and very dull messages about ‘party structures’ and cancelled meetings; it’s aimed at about 20 folk who might just about consider turning up to local meetings. Voters? Bollocks to them.

Or here’s the SNP website proper; dynamic, cheery, upbeat with plenty of links to policies people might be interested in. Here’s Scottish Labour’s effort; the top few posts are literally speeches (“check against delivery”, ffs). Actually, virtually hidden away, there’s a genuinely appealing video featuring former soldier Frankie Caldwell, posted by Jim Murphy, which is exactly the kind of thing which should be on a political website.  But nobody’s watching it.

What about, say, yon Twitterrything? As I write, Scottish Labour managed a re-tweet 2 days ago (“Davie, will ye go intae the photocopier room and gie that Twittermachine’s button a push”); that was the 30th tweet over 30 days in May. The SNP? In the two days since Scottish Labour’s last tweet, the SNP have tweeted 41 times, mainly original content with a positive feel. How many SNP tweets during May? Hundreds – too depressing (for me) to count.  Unsurprisingly, the SNP’s Alex Salmond has 10 times as many followers as Scottish Labour’s Johann Lamont.

Too many Labour folk think throwing around the term ‘cybernats’ is enough to counter the SNP’s enormous technical and communications superiority. But in fact, ‘cybernats’ does the opposite. It makes Scottish Labour (and, of course, journos) seem backward-looking, ignorant and defeatist.

It also reflects Scottish Labour’s heavy reliance on conventional media – they seem frozen in the headlights. While the SNP has smart professionals and volunteers cooking up cool ideas about presentation, Labour is still relying on leaning up against the wall with journos in conspiratorial fashion.

The less-than-subliminal message is that if you’ve given up the ghost on social media then the rest will follow.

Cybernat is a loser’s word. Labour should pack it in and make an effort instead.

.

This post originally appeared on Eric Joyce’s blog. Reproduced with permission.

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    189 to “‘Cybernat’ is a loser’s word”

    1. Tris says:

      So, what cybernattery is really about is living in the 21st century and taking our country there with them.
       
      What Labour is about is not quite coping with the new fangled techie stuff and remaining a colony of England.
       
      Mind you, when Labour people do take to that Twittery thing (like Ian Smart for example) they tend to make a bit of a fool of themselves… a bit like yer dad doing ‘disco’ dancing!

    2. handclapping says:

      It all used to be so easy; you joined the Labour Party and you ended up in ermine with a Parliamentary pension. Then those bloody nationalists buggered it all up! In these circumstances why shouldn’t I call them a dirty word. I can’t think what else to do 🙁

    3. Loser’s word? Well, it was allegedly coined by Lord Foulkes of Glenfiddich. Says it all really.

    4. fittie says:

      Mind your back Eric –Grahamski will be spitting blood

    5. Indion says:

       
      And we’re doing it deliberately!
      Though I doubt SLab in general would get the full flavour of the meaning, the author would and really does need to come in out of the cold from, he said ex-officer to ex-officer keeping too many other officers busy when better doing best things.  
       

    6. handclapping says:

      @Roddy Mac
      Are you sure Lord ff has the intelect for that? It sounds much more like one of his SPADs. fifi maybe?

    7. Erchie says:

      While I assume Mr Joyce is still a full-on Labour supporter, committed to the Union, we could do with more of the simple, engaging eloquence from his side, instead of the frothing ranting nastiness we so often see.

    8. Iain says:

      Good, sharply observed piece. Interesting paradox that while SLAB have the political director of communications of Blue State Digital on their Falkirk shortlist, they seem almost willfully resistant to the value of social & electronic media. It’s struck me for a while that SLAB seem happy to take up the easy stuff (e.g. Twitter or trolling newspaper sites) but anything that requires a bit of imagination, enthusiasm, knowledge and sustained work (e.g. a website or blog) they can’t be arsed with. Labourhame must take the prize for the laziest, most dispiriting and ugly political site out there.

    9. Holebender says:

      Credit where it’s due. Well said Mr. Joyce!

    10. You may well be right, handclapping.

    11. Krackerman says:

      There’s a degree of this being him hitting back at the party that’s dumped him overboard I think.
       

    12. Indion says:

      I do hope Unitarists don’t stop using ‘cybernat’ as a term of non-endearment; it’s their tell of abuse in losing any argument and, for starters, clockwork wind-up to run down until out without any alarm bells going off.

    13. Gordon Hay says:

      O/T slightly, but noticed this tweet on Lord Foulkes’ page –
       
      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 29 May

      Don’t always agree with Brian Wilson, but he’s spot on re Jim McColl threatening to leave Scotland if we don’t vote Yes. What a patriot, eh?
       
      But it’s commendable of Michelle Mone to say she’ll leave if we do? Certainly that’s the impression given by all the coverage when she said it.
       

    14. Archibald Berwick Melrose [aka Archie] says:

      @ Erchie
      @ Holebender
      Totally agree with your posts – It would be interesting to see what the future holds for Eric Joyce.
       

    15. Angus McPhee says:

      Let’s not forget the largely self defeating practice of banning posters from better togeather’s Facebook for asking questions without sweary words.

    16. HighlandMartin says:

      Perhaps a term cyberloser can be coined and if anyone comes across media postings including the word cybernat just simply reply cyberloser. 
       
       

    17. HighlandMartin says:

      I’d be interested in research into actual interest in The Better Together site Angus.  They only seem to have resident grandees who assume that their points are made and posters disappear.  As a info point it is a horrendous website. Long may it continue!
       

    18. Desimond says:

      to HighlandMartin

      cyberloser synonymous with cyberlabour

    19. Jeannie says:

      As an aside, re use of technology, I posted last weekend about the Better Together ad coming up when I was trying to find a plumber from the Mr. What website.  And I understand that it came up because it reflects my own personal browsing history.  But I thought it was taking it too far when I went onto Newsnet Scotland and it came up there too 🙂

    20. Captain Caveman says:

      Well, I’m with Krackerman on this I’m afraid. Nuff said.

    21. Barontorc says:

      Do you think it’s Eric for Labour Indy? He’s seen as tarnished goods to almost social pariah class.

    22. MajorBloodnok says:

      I’ve got one of those mugs (personalised, with MajorBloodnok written on it).  Well worth it – espeically for drinking cyber-tea (Scottish Blend).

    23. Luigi says:

      Old school Labour politicians, eh. Och the poor souls are just frustrated. They know little about IT, but what they do now understand is they can now longer depend on the MSM blanket for complete protection. The cat is out of the bag. They are feeling exposed and they don’t like it. Hence they resort to name-calling. It’s a bit sad, really.

    24. Dee says:

      O/T I heard Johann Lamont has WARNED BBC Scotland that Gordon Brewar’s handwriting will need to improve because she cant make out all of the words he has wrote down for her weekly rant at FMQs.!!!!!

    25. Norsewarrior says:

      Why has this site reproduced an article by a disgraced MP who has been expelled from his party, who just a few days ago was arrested for breach of the peace at Edinburgh Airport, who was banned from driving for a year for failing to provide a breath test, and who has twice been charged with assault, one of which he was convicted for? 

      What next, will the site be giving publicity and article space to Bill Walker MSP?

    26. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “O/T I heard Johann Lamont has WARNED BBC Scotland that Gordon Brewar’s handwriting will need to improve because she cant make out all of the words he has wrote down for her weekly rant at FMQs.”

      Whatever accusations one might want to level at Gordon Brewer (and I know it was a joke), it is a quite scandalous slight to suggest that he’d ever be responsible for the leaden, stumbling, clumsy prose Lamont mumbles out on a regular basis.

    27. St Colm says:

      Why should the Labour party embrace social media? They (and the Conservatives) have the mass media all-sewn up, especially given the BBC’s staggering efforts on behalf of the No campaign. 

    28. Shinty says:

      Well done Eric Joyce, I’m not a labour voter but I admire anyone who tells it like it is.

      O/T anyone seen this shite from BT
       
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqXIanIWwc8&list=HL1369926049&feature=mh_lolz

    29. handclapping says:

      @Norsie
      Ah, a believer in Guilty until proved innocent. Don’t call us, we wont call you.

    30. Macart says:

      This is from Eric Joyce?
       
      Coffee goes cold in shock and hobnob remains in packet. 😮

    31. Cath says:

      “Let’s not forget the largely self defeating practice of banning posters from better togeather’s Facebook for asking questions without sweary words.”
       
      Long may they keep that up. Have a friend who’s 15 year old is now a definite yes after he posted a question there to help with a school essay and got deleted and banned.

    32. Cath says:

      Also I find it amusing that, despite their rate of deleting and banning, many of their threads are full of pro-independence and anti-BT posts. I can only imagine that’s because they have so many sponsored links they’re popping up all over Facebook so a lot of random people are leaving comments.

    33. scottish_skier says:

      “Why has this site reproduced an article by a disgraced MP who has been expelled from his party”
      Are you suggesting e.g. Ernest Hemingway novels should not have been published? Should all Jeffrey Archer novels be removed from the shelves?
      Note I’m not comparing literary quality here! 
      If the article was a justification for punching people when drunk then I could see an argument against posting it. People clearly agree with much of what’s being said though, so what does it matter who wrote it? If Rev had wrote it himself using almost identical words, would that have made a difference?

    34. Norsewarrior says:

      “Ah, a believer in Guilty until proved innocent”

      Er……..he was found guilty of common assault and guilty of failing to provide a breath test…….

    35. Dee says:

      @Rev
      Agreed Rev, you can’t blame the Bbc for everything..

    36. Taranaich says:

      Why has this site reproduced an article by a disgraced MP who has been expelled from his party, who just a few days ago was arrested for breach of the peace at Edinburgh Airport, who was banned from driving for a year for failing to provide a breath test, and who has twice been charged with assault, one of which he was convicted for?
       
      Because none of those things have anything to do with the article. I was under the impression that ad hominem was a logical fallacy, not a reasonable condition upon which to criticize an argument.

    37. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “This is from Eric Joyce?
      Coffee goes cold in shock and hobnob remains in packet.”

      Why the surprise? Eric has written sensible words on this very site previously:

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/scots-would-remain-eu-citizens/

    38. Norsewarrior says:

      “Because none of those things have anything to do with the article”

      Ahh right, so in your opinion its perfectly acceptable for a child rapist for example to be given the publicity of having their article published as long as that article has nothing to do with what they’ve been convicted of? 

      Can we look forward to an article on this site from Bill Walker MSP, as long as its not on domestic abuse?

    39. Luigi says:

      Why has this site reproduced an article by a disgraced MP who has been expelled from his party”
      Erm, because it is a decent article. And relevant, unlike the point you tried to make.

    40. cynicalHighlander says:

      Norsewarrior says:
      31 May, 2013 at 12:10 pm

      “Ah, a believer in Guilty until proved innocent”

      Er……..he was found guilty of common assault and guilty of failing to provide a breath test…….

    41. Jimbo says:

      Kudos to Mr Joyce for an honest and balanced blog.
       
      many people ask why he was re-elected. Leaving his personal life out of it, Mr Joyce was considered by his constituents to be a good MP who was known to work hard on their behalf. 
       
      Just like Denis Canavan, that other hard working Labour MP before him, Eric Joyce is being dumped from this seat by the Labour Party because they’re feart he’ll damage the Party’s image (What image? I hear you ask). To them Party must come first – the constituents needs and wants are ignored. They’ll parachute in a drone who’ll toe the Party line, and bugger the constituents. They’re only there as mere voting fodder.

    42. Luigi says:

      NW:
      Steady! You are starting to troll.

    43. scottish_skier says:

      I see straw men.

    44. MajorBloodnok says:

      I think I saw a straw squirrel too.

    45. handclapping says:

      @cynicalH
      The trial is set for July.

    46. Norsewarrior says:

      “Eric Joyce is being dumped from this seat by the Labour Party because they’re feart he’ll damage the Party’s image”

      So you’re saying an MP shouldn’t be expelled from a party even if he is found guilty of criminal charges like assault?
       
      Presumably you’ll strongly condemn the SNP for expelling Bill Walker from the party for his alleged domestic abuse?

    47. pmcrek says:

      @Norsewarrior
      Bringing child rapists into the conversation reeks of Reductio Ad Absurdum, the right to free speech doesnt end after a criminal conviction.

    48. handclapping says:

      When we get all riled about the political classes not having a scoobies about how we, their electors live, we should be glad that some of our MPs have had experience of the real world. How many of us don’t have points on our licence? How many have never been drunk?
      Better a real person than the non-entity that is the representation of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath from its MP

    49. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So you’re saying an MP shouldn’t be expelled from a party even if he is found guilty of criminal charges like assault?”

      Eric Joyce HAS been expelled from Labour.

    50. Macart says:

      @Rev Stu
       
      “Why the surprise? Eric has written sensible words on this very site previously:”
       
      Cheers Rev, I’d missed that one. You’re right though he does write rather well.

    51. Macart says:

      @Major and Skier
       
      I’m getting a fresh pot on and breaking into a new pack of hobnobs for this post. 🙂

    52. Gizzit says:

      I have no problem with the label “cybernat”.  As I said on the Guardian – I’d rather be a cyber at than a cybertwat.
       
       

    53. Norsewarrior says:

      “Eric Joyce HAS been expelled from Labour.”

      Er….yes I’m aware of that. The poster I was responding to was criticising Labour for expelling him! 

    54. Jimbo says:

      “So you’re saying an MP shouldn’t be expelled from a party even if he is found guilty of criminal charges like assault?”
       
      Perhaps, from the beginning, Mr Joyce’s peccadilloes were a cry for help, a cry which the Labour Party ignored.
       
      I’m willing to make allowances for ex servicemen who have seen action and may be traumatised by occurrences while in that occupation. Are you?

    55. Training Day says:

      Despote obvious gaffes like the one around purchasing pictures for his constituency office (artistic merit, eh Eric?) I’ve always thought Eric was too articulate and intelligent for Labour.  Good that he’s no longer there, and doesn’t have to smile nicely at dronebots like Grahamski. 
       

    56. a supporter says:

      Norsewarrior says: 31 May, 2013 at 11:58 am

      “Why has this site reproduced an article by a disgraced MP who has been expelled from his party, who just a few days ago was arrested for breach of the peace at Edinburgh Airport, who was banned from driving for a year for failing to provide a breath test, and who has twice been charged with assault, one of which he was convicted for? 
      What next, will the site be giving publicity and article space to Bill Walker MSP?”

      I detect a return to the REAL ‘norse warrior’ here. He has been lying low and been  reasonable for the last few posts to build up some cred. But Eric Joyce’s excellent article was just too much for him.
      Grahamski will be arriving soon as well.

    57. Captain Caveman says:

      I’m the first to agree that we should not expect (supposed) squeaky clean, boring ‘I did not inhale’ saints to represent us in our Democracy; everyone – and I don’t care who you are – has their foibles and faults, and in many cases these are to be celebrated, not shunned. However, I’ll personally draw the line at drunken brawling in public and, worst of all, a drunk driving conviction? (I’m a keen motorcyclist and was nearly killed by some drunk in his executive car in my youth)
       
      In terms of this piece in particular, it just reeks of sour grapes in my opinion. I’m betting the author didn’t say too much about how media-savvy the SNP supposedly are and/or how cheerful and wonderful their website is/was, whilst in the thrall of the parliamentary Labour Party for however many years.

    58. Norsewarrior says:

      “I’m willing to make allowances for ex servicemen who have seen action and may be traumatised by occurrences while in that occupation. Are you?”

      Not if they’re an MP. If someone is too traumatised to cope with life without resorting to alcohol and physical assaults then they really shouldn’t be serving as a politician. 

      And anyway, Joyce was in the Army Educational Corps, I doubt he saw many events that ‘traumatised’ him while he was educating troops….

    59. Norsewarrior says:

      “But Eric Joyce’s excellent article was just too much for him”

      As I’ve made clear I’d condemn any politician who is a convicted criminal, particularly one found guilty of assault or drink driving or domestic abuse, being given the publicity of having their articles published. 

      Quite obviously if his article was the other way round – critical of the SNP while praising Labour – every single SNP poster on this site would be roundly condemning his article being published.

      Others – such as ‘captain caveman’ – agree with my view. 

    60. Jeannie says:

      Well, irrespective of who wrote the article and whether he should or should not have been expelled from his party and no matter what his motive is in actually writing the article or whether Stu should publish an article by someone convicted of a crime……………does or does not Eric Joyce have a point?  I think he does.

    61. Vronsky says:

      First of all, thank you Mr Joyce for that piece: perceptive, frank and well-written. And thank you again for giving the Rev permission to re-print – brave stuff.  I’m not going to go along with those who say you no longer have anything to lose – there’s a safe path you could have taken, and could still take – but you didn’t and you won’t.  Bravo.

      I hope you’ll read the comments, and I hope you’ll engage with us.  To tempt you, let me tell you that you’re an enigma to us: so ineffably right about some things (nutting Tory MPs) and so effing wrong about others (your appearances on TV to defend illegal attacks on Middle Eastern countries).  Would the real Eric Joyce please stand up?

      Deal offer: if you’ll stand in Falkirk as an Independent, Nut the Tories, Fuck the Union, And Let’s All Go for a Beer and a Song Later — I’ll come and post leaflets for you. And I’ll bring along Mrs Vronsky, who is a Holy Terror and very likely to nut you before you nut her.

      I’ll move away from the microphone now – it’s yours. C’mon.

    62. Training Day says:

      @Captain Caveman
       
      Not quite sure what point you’re making here, Captain.  Are you saying that the article shouldn’t have been published because of the ‘foibles and faults’ in Eric’s personal life?  Or are you simply saying that as a society we shouldn’t brawl in the street or drink drive?
       
      If the former, it’s farewell to Dostoyevsky, Hemingway, Lowry, and umpteen others.  If the latter, fine, but it shouldn’t be linked to a commentary on the merits or otherwise of Eric’s piece.

    63. scottish_skier says:

      does or does not Eric Joyce have a point? 

      Having had a look at the various websites etc Joyce references, I’ve reached similar conclusions as he did.

    64. Captain Caveman says:

      “Nutting Tories”…? Seriously?
       
      Lol. All I can say is, be careful which Tory you decide to “nut”. Some of us can “nut” right back, twice as hard. 😉

    65. Jimbo says:

      @ Norsewarrior
       
      Post traumatic stress isn’t like chicken pox – You can’t see it, and you don’t realise you have it.
       
      A Labour activist recently posted some comment about nationalists committing suicide the day after a NO vote, and did the SNP have a contingency plan for this? I doubt if anyone in the Labour Party thought to ask Mr Joyce if he perhaps needed a little help to come to terms with occurrences in his private life. A little sympathy and understanding is not a bad thing – Nor is it a sign of weakness.
       
      You’re not Grahamski in another guise, are you?

    66. Jiggsbro says:

      You also shouldn’t attempt to nut Eric Pickles, as you may be absorbed.

    67. Captain Caveman says:

      @ Training Day
      No, I’m just saying that for me, there’s a credibility issue here. I’m not suggesting that the piece shouldn’t have been published by Stu or whatever, any more than I should be prevented from (briefly) commenting on it.

    68. Macart says:

      @Jeannie
       
      Couldn’t agree more. Mr Joyce’s post has raised the spectre of the one corner of media communication where the Westminster parties have a particular Achilles heel. Hence the relentless attacks on ‘Those vile cybernats’ (plug, plug), of recent times. The SGs and greater independence movement’s understanding and use of the internet to their advantage is far in advance of the opposition’s. They’ve gotten complacent in their reliance on broadcast and print media. Technology has given people voices they wouldn’t have had even twenty years ago. Its not quite a level playing field yet in terms of communication, but its certainly kept us in there with a good shout.

    69. handclapping says:

      The trouble with Joyce is that he believes in what is told about what was. The Army Education did a great job in WW2. The present reality of trying to educate squaddies was too much for an inteligent man. The Labour party did a great job of creating social security after WW2. The present purposeless reality was too much for an inteligent man especially as the only way to get to the intellectual level of his cohort was to get drunk. And even then he wasn’t any good as a Scottish Labour MP, if he had been he would have waited and clocked a SNP MP and not a Tory.
      What now? He can’t turn his army experience into literature; that slot has been taken by Tom Sharpe’s Wilt. If he still hopes to do good in the cess pit of politics there is the Eoromillions winners chance of a list seat as an independent for Central. Otherwise its take up gardening; at least its nearly right and then you die as opposed to life’s a bitch and ….

    70. Training Day says:

      @Captain Caveman
      ‘No, I’m just saying that for me, there’s a credibility issue here’
       
      Sorry, Captain, don’t get it.  Do the writings of Dostoyevsky lack credibility because he preached social conservatism and attacked anarchy in his work, yet he himself was a frequent drunk and inveterate gambler?   Is his work compromised by the fact that the opposite of what he intended to convey frequently comes through more powerfully than his own personal beliefs?  In my view that just makes him a great writer.

      Anyway, not intending to sidetrack this thread!  Or indeed compare Eric with Dostoyevsky..

    71. Vronsky says:

      ” Some of us can “nut” right back, twice as hard”
       
      Oh, we know.  It’s why we want rid of you.

    72. Desimond says:

      The shabbily dressed man entered the office and turned back to look into the window display.
      “Can I help you?” sneered an approaching member of the Better Together Campaign Team.
      “Oh, yes, thanks” said the man holding out a card. “Im Lieutenant Columbo. I was just admiring your nice shortbread tins there. My wife loves shortbread. She’d love those tins”
      “Im sure she would, well? We’re very busy here Columbo”
      “Of course you are, or course. Im here about the character assassinations”
      “Character assassinations, Oh you mean poor Ms Calman and poor Sir Chris Hoy, victims of those awful Cybernats”
      “Yes, thats it,”
      ” Poor People, justgoing about their business and suddenly attacked for no reason. A Straightforward case of Cybernattery crime”
      “Well yes,  thats it, it all seems straightforward.”
      “Seems Lieutenant? All of the Scottish Media are reporting that its obviously the work of deranged braveheart obsessed cybernats”
      “Yes, thats what I first thought, but you see…..theres just one thing….”
       

    73. Captain Caveman says:

      @Vronsky
       
      Heh. You were talking about individuals, not an entire Party (or indeed the Union itself). If you were, I wouldn’t have taken umbridge.
       
      You might think it’s acceptable, amusing or even admirable to smash someone’s face in because you don’t agree with them politically – I don’t.

    74. Doug Daniel says:

      Seems to me that Norsewarrior and Captain Caveman are making two entirely different points about Eric Joyce. CC’s point is that there’s a chance this is more about hitting back at his former party, rather than genuine sentiment – nothing to do with his alcohol-related mishaps at all. I don’t agree with that because Eric had a history of being able to say when Labour was in the wrong while still a member (he was a big advocate of Devo Max), so I don’t find it unusual for him to write this. However, it’s still a valid enough point to bring up – although Eric actually resigned from the party, rather than being thrown out (although obviously that might just be how they do things).
       
      Norsewarrior, on the other hand, is just saying “this guy did this thing, therefore he is totally discredited, and listening to anything he says is equivalent to giving the time of day to a child rapist”. That’s just nonsense, and we all know why he’s doing it.

    75. HandandShrimp says:

      NW
       
      Eric Joyce has an anger management issue and possibly enjoys one too many now and then (bad combination). His actions were too much for the PLP which is perhaps not surprising but they were hardly Crime of the Century league. He is still an MP and he can stand up and speak in the Commons. He writes articulately and the topic is relevant. To argue “would you be OK with Hitler writing a piece” (or whatever it was) is, well, daft.   

    76. Dal Riata says:

      If you turn away from the Eric Joyce and his newsworthy ‘extracurricular activities’ that the public might know best for a moment, you will read some very pertinent points he makes regarding the use of the word ‘cybernat’ and how this is used as a term of abuse by Labourites (and of course, all other varieties of Scotland Must Vote No-ers), which, in turn, only shows up Labour’s ‘old thinking’ and ignorance of social media and its importance in spreading the positive message of an independent Scotland to so many people.
       
      He is stating that, basically, (Scottish) Labour are, presently, dinosaurs in a technological age…And we know what happened to the dinosaurs, don’t we?!

    77. HandandShrimp says:

      I should also add that I didn’t take Eric’s piece as anti-Labour but as genuine constructive criticism of the Labour Party’s approach to the media and new technology. He is right Cybernat isn’t a criticism it makes us sound like we are in the ones in the 21st century and Labour stuck in second gear….and that is probably because it’s true 🙂

    78. a supporter says:

      Norse warriors first post was made at 31 May, 2013 at 11:58 am.  And as you will notice since  then the comments have been diverted from the gist of Eric Joyce’s article, which was complimentary about the YES campaign and critical of the NO campaign for its use of nasty vile anti SNP comments, onto the merits or demerits of Eric Joyce’s character and of allowing him to publish in Wings. Further ‘norsie’ hasn’t posted much since an ‘aide’ in the form of Captain Caveman appeared to do the job for him. Wingsmen beware.
       
       

    79. The Man in the Jar says:

      I am more than happy to give Eric Joyce the benefit here. I would like to think that now he is free of party constraints he is voicing a long held and valid opinion.
      @Captain Caveman
      I know how you feel I have had a few SMIDSY moments myself.
       

    80. MajorBloodnok says:

      I’m not surprised that teaching can leave anyone, including someone like Eric Joyce, with post-traumatic stress disorder.  I mean, look at Johann Lamont – she was a teacher for a while and now every week she’s a gibbering wreck.  Mind you, those two things might not be connected

    81. Captain Caveman says:

      Heh, SMIDSY! Indeed mate. 🙂
       

    82. pmcrek says:

      MajorBloodnok
      10/10

    83. Norsewarrior says:

      “Seems to me that Norsewarrior and Captain Caveman are making two entirely different points about Eric Joyce. CC’s point is that there’s a chance this is more about hitting back at his former party, rather than genuine sentiment – nothing to do with his alcohol-related mishaps at all”

      Presumably you didn’t read the part of CC’s post where he says “I’ll personally draw the line at drunken brawling in public and, worst of all, a drunk driving conviction”?

    84. Captain Caveman says:

      @ a supporter
       
      I did hesitate to even respond at all, but for the record, I’m no-one’s “aide”, thanks, and whilst most certainly a dissident (and quite possibly somewhat eccentric), I am not a troll. 

    85. The Man in the Jar says:

      @a supporter
      Id be careful. Grouping “noggin the nog” and Captain Caveman together is a mistake. You might disagree with CC but his intentions are at least honourable unlike some.
      Just sayin like!

    86. MajorBloodnok says:

      He’s not a troll, he’s a troglodyte.  Subtle distinction.

    87. Who amongst us haven’t wanted to punch a Tory MP at one time or another?
      Eric lived the dream by hitting several at once and paid the price.
      The term was coined by Fifi le Bonbon, a unionist poster on the Scotsman and nicked by her boss Geordie Foulkes.
      Fifi disappeared from the records when the current Labour MSP for Lothian was elected.
      A strange coincidence.

    88. Norsewarrior says:

      “Norsewarrior, on the other hand, is just saying “this guy did this thing, therefore he is totally discredited, and listening to anything he says is equivalent to giving the time of day to a child rapist”. That’s just nonsense, and we all know why he’s doing it.”

      Why am I apparently doing it? 

      I’ve made my feelings clear on this forum previously about my belief that constituents should be able to vote to expel their MP/MSP if they are convicted of a serious criminal offence such as assault or domestic abuse.

      If this were an article in which Bill Walker MSP criticised his former party while praising Labour I would be equally against it being published, so your wee insinuation is groundless.

    89. Vronsky says:

      @Captain Caveman

      I’m intrigued to learn that you’ve taken Umbridge.  Do you mean you’ve invaded some village?  Why have we not heard of this campaign?  To which ungrateful foreigners are you now delivering democracy at the point of a gun?

    90. Norsewarrior says:

      “He’s not a troll, he’s a troglodyte.  Subtle distinction.”

      But there’s a significant distinction between a troll and a troglodyte…..

    91. Captain Caveman says:

      @Major
      😀
      Very true mate, “the world’s coolest” in fact.
       
      @Vronsky
      No idea what you’re on about; probably taking the piss and/or trying to antagonise me or whatever. I’ve said what I needed to say and I’m not biting, sorry.
       

    92. Vronsky says:

      “No idea what you’re on about”
       
      ‘Course you don’t.  Giggle.  Everyone else knows, though…

    93. Captain Caveman says:

      @the man in the jar
       
      Cheers matey, appreciated bud 🙂

    94. handclapping says:

      @norsie
      Still trying, eh. The trial is not until July. You are on treacherous ground.

    95. HandandShrimp says:

      Umbridge? Isn’t that where the Archers live?
       
      Eric Joyce bopped Conservative MPs and that is why he is out. Lots of MPs have drink driving convictions and still retain their party whip. He has blotted the “we all wear management consultant suits these days” copy book but to suggest that he is some sort of social pariah and should be dropped into the same pigeon hole as Pol Pot is crazy talk. His comments are both interesting and relevant. So we should be discussing the content of his argument not his personality. He isn’t pitching a pro-independence line here just analysing Labour’s failure to really get to grips with new technology and its tendency to hide that deficit with some angry abuse. I think Eric is uniquely placed to discuss this 😉 

    96. a supporter says:

      Captain Caveman. My apologies. I wasn’t implying you were a troll and you are fully entitled to your views about Eric Joyce. Perhaps I could have phrased my post better. My word ‘aide’ was shown within inverted commas meaning that I did not think you were a real aide to Norse warrior. He was just letting your anti-Eric Joyce posts  continue his …lling activities without having to make a contribution himself, a standard tactic of people like him.

    97. ianbrotherhood says:

       
       
      Norsey’s sticking in some overtime – he’s busy over on ‘Another Freudian Slip’.
       
      Tried to find an image of a troll riding two horses, but failed. Closest I found was this:
       
      http://headhearthealth.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/riding-two-horses.jpg

    98. Captain Caveman says:

      @ a supporter
      Hey, no worries at all mate, thanks for posting. 🙂

    99. Dal Riata says:

      It also raises the question that, if this staunch member of the Labour party (though, obviously that may now be questionable) is saying, or at least implying, that (Scottish) Labour are behind the curve and that the SNP and others pushing for an independent Scotland are ahead technologically in the Scottish independence debate – and with a positive message too! – then one wonders how many more there are, within (Scottish) Labour and among their supporters who also have these opinions, but only within themselves and not yet spoken of.
       
      How many present Labour supporters especially, are now wavering, and come next year’s referendum will have a big, big decision to make on ‘Yes’ or ‘No’? How many, as like those in Labour for Independence, might think that the Labour party they once believed in is no more and that only Scottish independence can give them the hope for a Labour party fit for life in the twenty-first century?

    100. MajorBloodnok says:

      Anas Sawar has a recent conviction for driving and using a mobile phone at the same time (being about the limit of his multi-tasking abilities).  Any views on that Noggin?
       
      @Capitan Caveman – indeed!  However, my favourite troglodyte is Raquel Welsh, for obvious reasons.

    101. BillyBigbaws says:

      It feels odd (and frankly unpleasant) to have Eric Joyce acting as a voice of reason in the debate, but I suppose that sections of the media and parts of the Labour Party have sunk to such hysterical depths in their hatred of the SNP and the Yes camp that he now lies on the saner side of the unionist spectrum.

      That doesn’t change the fact that I dislike him, and find some of the praise for him here needlessly fulsome.  I understand the principle that we should punish (ie. show disapproval of) “bad” behaviour, and reward “good”, so as to improve things overall – and the article itself is alright.  But Joyce was a massive public cheerleader for the Iraq war, never off Newsnight in the run-up to the invasion occupation, only abruptly switching to an anti-war stance ten years after (nearly) everybody else had. 

      If he had any respect for his constituents he would’ve resigned long ago – one of Scotland’s largest areas of population is represented at Westminster by a man who rarely can, or can be bothered to, represent it (though by God he’ll take the money).  In my view this was true even before his more recent rumbustiousness.  He seems to have more interest in the Democratic Republic of Congo than in Falkirk.  So do I, right enough, but nobody is paying me to be interested in Falkirk, and Falkirk loses nothing from my disinterest.

      So… rant over.  Thanks for sticking up for us a bit, Mr. Joyce.  I enjoyed the article.  Please can you trigger a by-election now, it would be really funny. 
       
       
       
       

    102. Dee says:

      I think the word “cybernat” is rather kool and should be worn as a badge of honour. What will Johann call us now, once she knows we actually like the word. Someone should get the merchandise out there, Proud To Be A Cybernat.

    103. ianbrotherhood says:

       
      If the article was by ‘Anonymous’, we’d be discussing the substance of the comments rather than picking fluff out of Eric Joyce’s navel. In any case, Joyce, Sarwar, Archer, Aitken, Huhne etc etc have something very important in common – they were caught.
       
      The big beasts don’t get their collars felt – they go on the global lecture circuit, collect Peace Prizes, Congressional Medals of Honour etc.
       
      So it goes…

    104. BillyBigbaws says:

      Aitken and Archer were big beasts (especially Aitken), it’s just that they incurred the wrath of even bigger ones. 

    105. HandandShrimp says:

      Dee
       
      The term CyberNat doesn’t bother me. As name calling goes it is surprisingly generous. We are nationalists and we inhabit cyber space far more effectively and in far greater numbers than all the opposition put together. This is good.  

    106. Macart says:

      Never considered being called cybernat to be anything else other than a badge of pride. 🙂

    107. MajorBloodnok says:

      Dee – don’t be a mug, buy one instead!

    108. Dal Riata says:

      @Norsewarrior
      “Upon a hill there was a coo. It must ‘a’ moved, it’s no’ there noo.”
       
      Please give answers to the following:
       
      What was the cow (“coo”) doing on a hill?
      How do we know it wasn’t a mountain?
      When does a hill become a mountain?
      Because it’s not there now (“no’ there noo”); does that mean that the cow is totally removed from the said hill?
      Could the animal have moved to another area of the hill which is unsighted to the viewer, thus it could, indeed, be still “upon the hill”?
      Do you believe that the incident even took place, or that it was merely a writers poetic construct to rhyme the words, ‘coo’ and ‘noo’?
       
      Finally, do you believe that it was a person from Scotland who composed the above lines, or was it just another attempt by Better Together to smear Scotland by association as being too poor, too wee and too stupid with their use of there being only one cow and Scotland’s various uses of linguistic vernacular to describe the disappearance of said animal?
       
      These are the questions that need answered, Norsewarrior. And they need answered NOW. Or else we might as well say, ‘That’s it. The gamezabogie’, and call for the referendum to be cancelled ’cause we’re gonnae get gubbed anyway. So, come on – answers NOW!

    109. Linda's Back says:

      Have you seen this video from YES campaign on UK distribution of wealth.
      Problem for Better Together is that it is produced by the UK government and clearly shows that Scotland gets a raw deal under the Union. 
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGdRM3C_wjc&feature=youtu.be
       
       

    110. Nkosi says:

      Keep off the booze Eric there is hope for you yet.

    111. ianbrotherhood says:

       
      @Dal Riata-
       
      Re Norsey.
       
      Rev told him to piss off on the ‘Freudian’ thread, and he seems to have done so. He’ll lick his wounds, straighten his horns, and come back in due course. The poor sowel appears to have parted company with whatever sense Odin gave him.
       
      Must say, his contributions here do sometimes have a grim entertainment value, but on this and t’other thread he’s definitely out of his league.

    112. MajorBloodnok says:

      Don’t worry, he’ll be back next week.  Thor’s-day probably.

    113. Chic McGregor says:

      Sheena and I have one each.  And yes the tea does taste better out of them.

    114. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Rev told him to piss off on the ‘Freudian’ thread, and he seems to have done so. He’ll lick his wounds, straighten his horns, and come back in due course.”

      No he won’t.

    115. john king says:

       
      Desimond says:
      go on go on 
      dont stop there

    116. john king says:

       
      Desimond says:
      go on go on 
      dont stop there
      it was just getting interesting
      I love columbo

    117. Max says:

      From this;
       
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6757773.stm
       
      to this;
       
      http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/227585-luke-elliott-and-anthony-driver-killed-craig-hepburn-in-village/
       
       
      It seems the rise of anti-Scottish sentiment in England is increasingly turning violent. 
       
       

    118. CameronB says:

      I’m with BillyBigbaws, Eric Joyce was one of the most active salesmen for the planned mass-murder that was the invasion of Iraq. Calling it a ‘war’, is like putting wings on a pig, i.e. absurd. Iraq had no defense forces to speak of following the first ‘Gulf War’, the country’s economy was on its knees after a decade of crippling sanctions that killed thousands of children. However, Saddam was about to start trading Iraqi oil in the Euro, so that was enough for the USA. After all, what are a few hundred thousand ‘sand niggers’ in comparison to quarterly profits on Wall Street? Now much of the country is a radioactive wasteland, thanks to all the depleted uranium munitions used.
       
      As to giving Eric Joyce the exposure. I wouldn’t give that particular piece of shite the steam off mine.

    119. Craig M says:

      A Cybernat equates to Cyberknight in my view. Slaying the Unionist dragon….I’ll get my coat.

    120. ianbrotherhood says:

       
      So, Norsewarrior died in battle, not in his bed…well, not so far as we know. He could be in his scratcher right now with a jar of mead and his laptop, scrolling through his old posts and wondering what might have been…

    121. Patrick Roden says:

      I find it strange that anyone who supports independence wouldn’t find criticism of the labour/better together campaigning apparatus interesting.
      Eric Joyce knows the workings of Labour campaigns and he is pointing out in his article that the SNP/Yes campaign is miles ahead and that the labour/BT response of simply calling on-line Yes supporters ‘cybernats’ is not working.
      Why on earth would anyone criticise Rev for reproducing this article, unless it was an attempt to deflect attention away from something that has became one of BT’s main campaigning thrusts, ie the demonising of cybernats.
       
      It looks to me that Eric Joyce is admitting that the insulting and demonising of online yes supporters is borne out of fear and frustration about how effective we are.
      this is something that would give us cybernats wings, encouraging us to keep up the good work, no wonder that some people would be keen to deflect from this central point.

    122. CameronB says:

      @ Patrick Roden
      I agree that the piece is a criticism of SLabour strategy, but are we really that desperate? Would a link to the article not have been sufficient, with the Rev. providing background info and analysis?
       
      I hope the history books highlight how Mr. Eric Joyce sold mass-murder.

    123. Dal Riata says:

      @ianbrotherhood
      Indeed. Maybe it’s a badge of courage or something, to go down in a blaze of ever-increasing delusional ranting t**ldom! I wonder where will be next to have the pleasure of its company?! I’m sure it’ll be already busy composing WoS-is-noting-but-an-SNP-front posts to defile some poor unaware’s website! 

    124. Famous15 says:

      All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God was my grandmother’s response to theHoly willies who practised hypocricy. My more secular response is to say move on,nothing to see here. The real issue is whether what he wrote is of any merit. Well I think he skewered the humbugs who in footballing parlance practise simulation…..take a dive!

    125. Peter Mirtitsch says:

      It appears to be quite difficult to be an effective cybernat, as any websites or Facebook pages which are prounionist, have an alarming tendency to BAN and BLOCK anyone who disagrees with any posts or has an openly pro independence view. They go on about nationalists stifling free speech, but for some strange reason, we appear to be the only side not allowed to freely comment without hindrance. Weird, innit?

    126. lumilumi says:

      @ Linda’s Back (3.21pm)
       
      Interesting statistics in the clip, and I’ve seen links to stories about this but haven’t had time to follow them up, sorry.
       
      One point that I immediately thought was: Is Scotland’s apparent lack of the wealthiest 10% or 1% due to more equal income distribution? What’s Scotland’s share in the lowest deciles? Where does Scotland stand in the UK-wide median wealth?
       
      Nobody in Finland is among the wealthiest 1%, or even 10% world-wide, probably not even Europe-wide. Still, we seem to do quite well without the mega-wealthy. Maybe that’s the reason we’re doing so well!
       
      (Of course there are poor people in Finland, and, worryingly, income inequality has increased in the last 20-15 years, but we’re still far from the income inequality in the UK.)

    127. Jeannie says:

      Aw, is that Norsey away?  I’ll kind of miss him.  I usually have a wee bet with myself when he first comments, to see how many posts it will take before he manages to get in something about the SNP – I can name the SNP in 3.  It’s endlessly fascinating to see how he can take any subject at all and turn it into an anti-SNP rant. 

    128. Marcia says:

      I had assumed the article was by our Rev and did not find out it was by Eric Joyce until I finished reading the article. I cannot see Labour changing their tactics.

    129. Cyborg-nat says:

      I suspect that Major Eric Joyce suffers constant torment from the triple demons of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder,Depression and alcohol overuse.
      I would not rush into passing any judgement on him even if the courts find him guilty as, if my assumption is correct, he is serving a life sentence already.
      As Burns said,
      “If you had seen what I hae seen……”

    130. CameronB says:

      As has been pointed out earlier, Major Eric Joyce was not in combat, so this PTSD line is, how to put it politely, rubbish.

      Second thoughts. Major Joyce has been a long time judo player, so perhaps he has an undiagnosed brain injury, with symptoms very similar to PTSD.

    131. Cyborg-nat says:

      Cameron B.
      I was not in combat either but still suffer from the torments I mentioned as well as losing my hearing.
      Remember, “There but for the grace of God go I.”

    132. Jiggsbro says:

      As has been pointed out earlier, Major Eric Joyce was not in combat, so this PTSD line is, how to put it politely, rubbish.
       
      You do not need to have been in combat to suffer PTSD.

    133. CameronB says:

      Cyborg-nat
      I don’t mean to offend, but there is more than a slight difference between being upset by certain things you have seen, and having the entire chemical balance of your brain altered. This is the effect that ‘PTSD’ has, or should I say, the effect that a wide range of debilitating psychological disorders which have become known as ‘PTSD’ have. “There but for the grace of God go I.” Well, I have lived with ‘PTSD’ for over 25 yeas now, and believe me, it is no pick nick. I never saw combat either, but I did suffer a brain injury. I may be in error, but I seriously doubt Major Joyce suffers from ‘PTSD’, though he is a bit of a ‘radge’.

    134. David Lee says:

      I seriously never expected Eric Joyce to be a Wings reader.
      Who next? Brian Wilson? Jim Murphy?

    135. alexicon says:

      CameronB says:
      31 May, 2013 at 4:13 pm

      @ Patrick Roden
      I agree that the piece is a criticism of SLabour strategy, but are we really that desperate? Would a link to the article not have been sufficient, with the Rev. providing background info and analysis?
       
      I agree with Patrick critique 100%.
      From a very active cybernat and a proud nationalist.
      Me.

    136. CameronB says:

      @ alexicon
      I also agree with Patrick’s critique, try to be an active cybernat and am also a proud supporter of Scottish independence. I was only stating my opinion. I just don’t think that Major Joyce’s history should be accommodated. I could perhaps be seen as being overly moralistic, but I think principle should trump pragmatism, where Major Joyce is concerned.

    137. HeatherMcLean says:

      Norsewarrior says:
      31 May, 2013 at 12:21 pm

      “Because none of those things have anything to do with the article”
      “Ahh right, so in your opinion its perfectly acceptable for a child rapist for example to be given the publicity of having their article published as long as that article has nothing to do with what they’ve been convicted of? ”
      Norse Warrior, if its perfectly acceptable for the Rev to allow  you to spout your argumentative, confrontational tripe on here, then it’s perfectly acceptable for ANYONE to voice their opinion on a relevant subject. I’m normally a very patient tolerant person but you’ve just gotten on my last nerve! ( And I’m sure I’m not alone in that!)

    138. Tattie-boggle says:

      Cybernat is a Badge of Honour and will most likely be Studied in the future to gain a Scottish History Degree 🙂

    139. Indion says:

       
      CameronB

      O/T I’ve responded at Quarantine with a couple of comments after your’s Re the BBC’s new series on the 2nd war agin Saddam’s Iraq.

    140. Gordon Bain says:

      @ David Lee
      When he becomes a Wings listener I’ll rejoice….
      “Stuck inside these four walls….”
      Geddit?
      Hail Caesar!.
       
      PS – I didn’t miss the pun in rejoice, I just couldn’t be arsed.

    141. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I agree that the piece is a criticism of SLabour strategy, but are we really that desperate? Would a link to the article not have been sufficient, with the Rev. providing background info and analysis?”

      I’m unclear as to what difference you think posting a link rather than a reprint would have made to anything. Every extra click you put between the reader and something you want them to read cuts readership by 80-90%. It’s a really good piece and I want people to read it, so overwhelmingly the best way is to print it right here.

    142. CameronB says:

      I’m probably wrong, but I just can’t stomach Major J.

    143. Rod Mac says:

      The Majors behaviour past or present does not deflect from his observations.
      Those quite clearly illuminate that we the faceless cybernat warriors are doing our little bit for the cause.
      The BT mob have no similar weapon in their armoury and will have no chance of putting any in place before Sept 2014.
      We should continue to exploit our advantage and the more we hear them shrill and squeal the better we are doing.

    144. Juteman says:

      Joyce is a fellow human being. He has problems with alcohol. Hands up, anyone who hasn’t wakened up after a night out, and said ‘oh no, I didn’t!’
      Imagine your ‘oh no’ moment being all over the media.
      Just because a man has problems, it doesn’t mean that he is an intellectual idiot.

    145. lumilumi says:

      I read this piece by Eric Joyce on his own blog yesterday, when it was linked to from comments here or NNS or somewhere.
       
      Regardless of what you think of Mr Joyce’s past politics or antics in the last year or so, he does have a point. BT/unionists are doing their damnest to demonise the ‘cybernats’ because they’re losing the online battle six-nil. I’m just not sure if demonising each and every interwebby-connected indy supporter or even don’t knower is a vote winner.
       
      Maybe Mr Joyce has been able to speak out now, after being kicked out of the PLP but if (S)LAB/BT want to make any gains, they’d be well-advised to listen to Mr Joyce.
       
      But no. After the 2010 Westmister loss and the 2011 Holyrood fiasco (for SLAB, that is :-D) (S)LAB promised a ‘root and branch review’ and ‘listening to the people on the ground’ and other such waffle.
       
      What have they done?
       
      It seems to me that they’re stuck in a bunker, thumbs firmly in their ears and rest of the fingers over their eyes, going ‘la la la la la la! I’m not hearing anything, I’m not seeing anything!’
       
      It seems SLAB cannot take advice because they think they always know what’s best for their loyal voters. They haven’t got to grips with the fact that loyal and hereditary voters are turning to other parties and that dastardly interwebby thing.
       
      Mr Joyce might also be taking a bit of a swipe at his former party, fair enough.
       
       

    146. MajorBloodnok says:

      Correction – he has seen combat.  It just that it was the Battle of Strangers Bar in the Palace of Westminster.  I wonder if we’ll be forced to celebrate the centenary of that one.

    147. Gordon Bain says:

      Absolutely right Juteman! i’m far more inclined to accept his foibles over his politics. Politics is far more important. On those grounds, sadly for him….
      But it is a very well written piece. He clearly gets the importance, not of the technology per se, but the reach that technology affords. And this is why we’re onto a winner. People get sick of me saying this but it bears repeating – every argument is winnable! Who cares if the others ever understand the tech, their message is pish. All we need is a level playing field and we’ll win. Modern communications provide that level playing field. They adopt it at their peril!
      Vote Yes for a better, fairer Scotland.
      Hail Caesar!. 

    148. Juteman says:

      I pissed on Ian Paisleys shoes in the toilets at Westminster. Does that make me a bad person?

    149. Captain Caveman says:

      O/T Lol @ Major. 😀
      I’ve just genuinely choked on my coffee – class!

    150. JLT says:

      It appears that Mr Joyce, surprisingly, is a man of many layers. A good article by him.

    151. theycan'tbeserious says:

      “Demonization as a political and social stratagem knows no temporal or geographical bounds; it is a ploy as old as civilization itself. The objective of the game is to dehumanize an opponent (an individual or a group) in order to gain public support for his marginalization or destruction”. 
      Sounds familiar?

    152. HandandShrimp says:

      On PTSD – he must have sat through a fair few speeches by Lamont and Gray and Curran…..
       
      OK my sympathy is now on overload.

    153. Midgehunter says:

      Or as Michael Palin might have said:
       
      “I’m a cybernat and I don’t care,
      I like to get in the tories hair.
      Labour lies and we don’t like that,
      yes I’m a cybernat”
       
      “Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnddd ……….
       

    154. BillyBigbaws says:

      @ Juteman,
      “Just because a man has problems, it doesn’t mean that he is an intellectual idiot.”

      I wouldn’t call Eric Joyce an intellectual idiot.  I wouldn’t call him an intellectual anything.  The article above is reasonably interesting, and I agree with every word of it, but I’ve read much the same points being made before by far wiser and more reliable people, and it’s hardly up there with A Discourse on the Method anyway. 

      Nor does being in the Army Education Corp and Office of Public Affairs make him Gordon of Khartoum.   

      Sorry to be sarky, and insulting towards Joyce, but I’m just baffled by the praise and sympathy he is getting.  He hasn’t asked for sympathy, and nor has he expressed any public remorse when sober for the things he’s done while drunk.  Hell, he was on Channel 4 boasting about how many fights he’s been in, how many cars he’s stolen, and what a mad shagger he is, etc. not too long ago, and that was (as far as I could tell) without a drink in him.  He’s never apologised for the ridiculous level of his cumulative expenses claims either.

      Now he’s hanging on for his pension (£20 grand a year) while the people of Falkirk effectively go without representation, as their own pensions come under attack from the London government.

      It’s not his alcohol problem that bothers me, it’s his attitude problem, which he seems perversely proud of.  I’d be much more impressed by his punching and headbutting of Tories if he could also be arsed to vote against them now and then. 

      As for any PTSD he may suffer – it just cannot be worse than that of the many, many folk who’ve seen their families bombed and butchered in Iraq, at least in part because of his frantic pom-pom waving (and voting) in favour of Western neo-colonial adventurism there.

      And… relax.  Sorry Juteman, that wasn’t really aimed at you.  Major Joyce just bugs the shite out of me.  Hope the thread can continue on the subject of the article now, and I’ll shut up.

      Glad CameronB is on my side – it was just me and Norsewarrior standing shoulder to shoulder for a minute there, and it didn’t feel good.

    155. Patrick Roden says:

      The important point in EJ’s article was the admission that we are having an effect/
       
      Now that he has been kicked into touch by his beloved party, he is free to ‘tell it like it is’ without being constrained by the usual ‘party line’
       
      I find it difficult to respect anyone who is a member of the present Labour Party in Scotland, because they have lied to their own people (in the party) and they have lied to their own nation (Magrit Curran et al) so you can gauge my feelings towards EJ and his ilk.
       
      My main point is, for all of us to take encouragement from what he is saying, because I have noticed some of us getting a bit downhearted at the media’s demonization of the on line independence support.
       
      So chin up folks, the No’s have the media on their side,  but Yes has Us lot !!!
       
      And I know who I’d rather have fighting my corner 😉

    156. Juteman says:

      I’m not defending Joyce. You sow what you reap.
      I just have sympathy with folk in trouble. No matter who they are.

    157. bugger (the panda) says:

      Personally, I just believe that Prisoner Joyce needs thé benefit of thé doubt.
      This time only, though.
      E J   yer oan ain noo
       

    158. Morag says:

      Talking of facility with electronic media, I just clicked on Scot Goes Pop, and got a Better Together advert!!!

    159. Cyborg-nat says:

      Juteman.
      Amen.

    160. Cyborg-nat says:

      Handandshrimp.
      I find your comment at 8.22 utterly repulsive more in keeping with UKIP .
       
       

    161. Jim Mitchell says:

      Surely the thing here, tactically speaking, is that we can use his words, whether he is sincere or not, against our opponents, it will be up to them to prove he is lying!
      The REV was right to use this and it’s now up to the rest of us to use if further, whether the Major is a direct decedent of Attila the Hun or first cousin to Mother Teresa doesn’t matter a jot, if it’s a weapon to hand we use it.
      It still won’t be as low as anything the other lot get up to.

    162. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Handandshrimp.
      I find your comment at 8.22 utterly repulsive more in keeping with UKIP.”

      Eh?

    163. HandandShrimp says:

      I know I am not always totally lucid but I didn’t think that was one of my more obscure comments
       
      ??

    164. YesYesYes says:

      Excellent new blogpost By Stephen Noon. The No campaign just keeps giving and giving:
       
       
      http://stephennoon.blogspot.co.uk/

    165. BillyBigbaws says:

      @ Juteman, Fair enough, I see where you’re coming from and you are right, morally.  Everyone deserves a second (and third, and fourth, and fifth) chance.  Joyce does seem to have genuine problems, I’ve had similar problems (and incidents) myself in the past.  I’m just less proud of it than he seems to be… okay, okay, no more judgement.  Got a bit carried away there.

      Anyway, he’s right – Labour fear the hellish armies of Cybernats because they have no equivalent force to meet it with.  Lots of folk still vote Labour, but it’s a hard job finding someone who will vocally and coherently defend them.  The same goes for the Union.

    166. CameronB says:

      @ Rev. & HandandShrimp
       
      I hope Cyborg-nat replies.
       
      @ Cyborg-nat
      I apologies if my earlier reply to you seemed callous and dismissive. I was not informed of the extent of the brain damage I suffered, or the resulting ‘PTSD’, for 20 odd years. Believe me, I can possibly understand what you might be experiencing. Apologies again if I am being presumptuous.

    167. Cyborg-nat says:

      Hand&shrimp.
      As an oft quoted example. 55K American soldiers died in Vietnam but over 100k died afterwards due to PTSD.
      I have survived it by 15 years over my life expectancy when I was diagnosed with it.
      Make light of it if you wish. Every day I intone “Roll on death”.

    168. pro-loco says:

      I find a lot of entertainment on blogs is in spotting the trolls and name-calling. However this leads to a default “sarcastic’ tone when posting so that sometimes this does lead to posters apparently taking the opposite position to where they started. Paranoia and swivel-eyedness sets in soon after. In making sense of EJ’s blog I think it’s better to accept the general criticism of ‘Scottish Labour’s’ technical cyber-savvy vis a vis the ‘cybernat’ as merely a criticism of ‘Scottish Labour’ and not an endorsement of independence or the snp or any such position. Obviously it’s open to an interested party merely to ask EJ what did he mean by the article but would we understand the answer or would we be ‘looking under the sauce for the pasta’ a la Alex Ferguson?

    169. HandandShrimp says:

      Cyborg Nat
       
      None of us are getting out of this alive. If we do not balance seriousness with lightness then we are left only with misery.
       
      I am not unsympathetic to the suffering of others but I don’t see a lot of point in walking on politically correct eggshells either. My comment was not a denial of PTSD but rather a suggestion that some political speeches were so dire they could induce it. I am sorry if that upsets you but I see no merit in changing it.

    170. Frazer Allan Whyte says:

      Looking at the content only of the article by the surprising Mr Joyce I can see only three problems
      1. “..(using the term) ‘cybernats’ … makes Scottish Labour (and, of course, journos) seem backward-looking, ignorant and defeatist.”The word “seem” should have been omitted.
      2. “It also reflects Scottish Labour’s heavy reliance on conventional media – they seem frozen in the headlights.”  Once again “seem” should be omitted and replaced with “are”.
      3. “Cybernat is a loser’s word. Labour should pack it in and make an effort instead.” No, no,no,  “Cybernat” is a winner’s word. People fear what they do not know and Labour does not know how to use on-line media and so react as the ignorant and soon to be re- or dis- placed always do – disparaging what they cannot comprehend or amend.

    171. CameronB says:

      I hope this doesn’t offend, but I think it is quite easy to draw an analogy between PTSD and the union. The union is the lead boots that prevents Scotland becoming what it can, much like PTSD weighs and wears the suffer down.

    172. ianbrotherhood says:

       
      @BillyBigBaws-
       
      ‘Glad CameronB is on my side – it was just me and Norsewarrior standing shoulder to shoulder for a minute there, and it didn’t feel good.’
       
      You’re far from alone BBB – Joyce is widely reviled for his prominent role in the build-up to the Iraq invasion, and he has plenty of questions to answer on that score.
       
      If he ever does turn up at a Yes Scotland Fife meeting wearing a horsehair onesie, covered in ashes and thrashing his shins with nunchucks, there are plenty (meself included) who will refuse to hear any mea culpas until he explains who briefed him on his MSM role in the ‘BBC Scotland’ region during the post 9/11 period.
       
      And he’s one of many who would have to form an orderly line outside The Hague if justice was ever seen to be done. Point is – the article above just happens to be written by him.  He could’ve submitted the same article under a pseudonym – none of us would’ve been the wiser, and this thread would be eighty-odd comments lighter. The substantive points it contains are worthy of discussion, but that discussion hasn’t happened – too many of us can’t see past the formidable (albeit tragic) reputation Joyce has created. 
       
      Like it or not, we will see Damascene conversions over the coming months – the prospect of Joyce, Ian Davidson, or, shiver-me-timbers, Jackie Baillie trying to clamber on-board as the polls stutter ever-further in our favour is truly appalling.
       
      What do we do? Tell them all to just fuck off?
       
      What happens to ‘every vote is precious’?
       
      Know what I mean?
       
      (‘That would be an ecumenical matter...’ Father Jack)
       

    173. Lyn says:

      I would like to say that I do not know E. Joyce personally, but I do know that his brother passed away with cancer recently.  He had been fighting it for a bit, but lost the battle in the past few months. Maybe he suffers from that Brit thing of ‘stiff upper lip’ or could be the Scots thing about ‘too proud to say’, I don’t know.
      What is certain is that this man needs help and support and knocking him for his past demeanour’s will not help anyone.
      BTW thought his blog was excellent and as a SNP member made me feel privileged to be part of such a movement!

    174. Geoff Huijer says:

      Totally agree Lyn.

    175. Cyborg-nat says:

      Anent mocking PTSD.
      “Fare ye weel Drumdelgie ,A thoosand times adieu,
      I’ll leave ye as ah fund ye , amaist unceevil crew”
      And to Rev Campbell I leave you with Burns words on the Campbell seat of Inverara,
      “There’s nothin here but heilan scab hielan pride an’ hunger,
      If providence has sent me here,
      Twas surely in his anger”
      Goodbye,

    176. Hazel Lewry says:

      I’m so un-phased about being called a Cybernat, I sang a song about it.
      I read the article without bothering to look at the writer, and was therefore surprised by the comments… and actually went back to see with my own eyes who the author was.
      On that understanding then, and in total ignorance of the writer, I thought the article was interesting and fairly accurate. What can I say? It wasn’t Solzhenitsyn, then who among us is … ? 

    177. ScotsCanuck says:

      Aye, Hazel and it’s a belter.
       
      For my own part, if this debate/discussion over Mr. Joyce’s article proves anything it proves
      we “of a Nationalist persuasion” can and do disagree.
      The old line that we blindly follow our “cause” can be blown out the water with the comments written here.
       I relish discussion, debate & reasoned argument, what a bloody boring world it would be
      without it.
       
      More please.   

    178. Lurker in the Wings says:

       
       
      ScotsCanuck Agree. It wad be a borin’ place tae be if ye a’  thocht  like me.
       
       

    179. john king says:

      pro-loco says:
      31 May, 2013 at 9:55 pm

      I find a lot of entertainment on blogs is in spotting the trolls 
      Just as I was thinking that very thing I read your post, it was like precognition, 
      I experienced that very symptom while posting on the telegraph, 
      you would have a sensible conversation going with a no supporter, getting sociable and respecting each others views then along comes borderbill ,norsewarrior,orraquine,westheadbanger,amroth, et al ,and what was a respectful discussion descends back into tribal warfare, 
      some people just have a knack of sucking the life out of a room , don’t you think?:(

    180. john king says:

      Juteman says:
      31 May, 2013 at 7:27 pm

      I pissed on Ian Paisleys shoes in the toilets at Westminster. Does that make me a bad person?

        No, you would only have been a bad person if you had missed:)

    181. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      O/T
       
      But has anyone seen this, a letter from Bruce to Edward of England as one King to another? Dated 1310 and originally written in Latin this is a 16th Century translation.
       
      http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=robert+the+bruce+letter+found+urging+king+to+end+scots%27+persecution&d=1032399037190&mkt=en-GB&setlang=en-GB&w=0n5XP6SOcn1AmgJMDWji5B1V2-GijEzW
       

    182. pro-loco says:

      @ John King 1 June at 5.54 am
      It’s not just me then? Glad to have struck a chord. 
      There are spme posters however who seem to be consistently good e.g. Doug Daniels, whose remarks are intelligent, positive and generally restore the oxygen to said room – happy face!
       

    183. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Bugger (The Panda)
      You beat me to it.
      700 years ago Scottish independence was presenting a positive case. Nothing much has changed. The surprise is that the BBC are reporting it. Wonder if it will take them 700 years this time around?
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-22734279#

    184. Taranaich says:

      He is stating that, basically, (Scottish) Labour are, presently, dinosaurs in a technological age…And we know what happened to the dinosaurs, don’t we?!
       
      They adapted and evolved into birds, continuing to play a vital role in the Earth’s ecosystem and being one of the greatest evolutionary success stories in Earth’s history? 😛
       
      I kid, I just rankle at the association of dinosaurs to things which don’t adapt, because dinosaurs were – are – actually some of the most adaptable creatures out there. Plus dinosaurs are awesome and kids love them, which is another thing they certainly don’t share with Labour. 😀

    185. BillyBigbaws says:

      @ ianbrotherhood,
       
      Great post, wise and funny.  Jackie Baillie crossing the floor?  Ye Gods.  Not sure how I would deal with that at all.  I might switch to a Don’t Know, lol.

    186. Iain More says:

      It is also possible to get banned from Better Togethers racially abusive and anti Scottish hate sites for posting compliments about Ruthie Davidson and Johann Lamont and what superb jobs they are doing. They dont have any sense of humour either!

    187. Angus says:

      This site is one of the very best for political observation and debate about the Referendum and independence, be wary of letting the idiotic lewd arse calling itself norsewarrior trolling as the intention is never to debate but disrupt and already lowered the tone by acting the misinformed bell end

    188. Angus says:

      Better together removed me under my genuine Facebook Log in after a few comments where I provided proof of their smearing and false claims which was done tastefully and very cleanly……they must be breaking rules as they don’t follow the spirit of debate within a platform they claim to wish as a way to get the truth across.
       
      They should behonesty in that they skew the debate by banning real people for being better at informing the public than they.

    189. Alan says:

      Usual lunch time review of Wings, found this article really interesting, thanks Eric. However after admiring the SNP Falkirk website I found to my horror that the Labour site has been blocked by the cybernats in my company’s technology dept – LOL.



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