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Wings Over Scotland


Call answered

Posted on June 16, 2019 by

Our 2019 crowdfunder now has just 24 hours to go, and to be honest it’s exceeded our wildest expectations. Despite the moribund state of Scottish politics over the last two years we’re currently around £3200 beyond the previous all-time record, and that’s just phenomenal. You never stop taking our breath away, folks.

But we’re going to rattle the tin one last time by repeating something we said last year.

Even that incredible total amounts to an average contribution of less than £1 per regular reader. As with most crowdfunded ventures, barely 1% of the site’s users have actually backed it financially so far, which means 99% of you haven’t.

That stark reality needs to be weighed against the fact that the average Scottish adult -independence supporters included – also sends the BBC somewhere in the region of £72 a year. (£323m from 4.5m adults.)

While obviously a minority of folk do boycott the licence fee, that still means that the average Wings reader gives the BBC and the rest of the mainstream Scottish media vastly more money every year than they give Wings to fight it.

Because as well as its own output, which is hugely financially incentivised in favour of the Union, the BBC is now using your money to directly fund Scottish newspapers hostile to independence by paying them to hire more reporters.

(It’ll then also massively amplify those hostile voices by featuring them on multiple daily “papers review” shows from which online media with readerships many times bigger are arbitrarily excluded, enabling the anti-independence outlets to dictate the political news agenda every day without having to sell a single copy.)

So, y’know, it’s a tough job.

We know that a lot of people simply don’t have cash to spare these days, and that’s fine. Never, ever, ever send us money you can’t afford. And we know that a lot of people contribute in other ways than financially, with story tip-offs and expert inside knowledge and the like, and that’s great too. We couldn’t do what we do without you.

But if the Yes movement’s media were funded to even a tiny fraction of the level that Yes supporters (however grudgingly) fund anti-independence media, it could truly bring about a Scottish political revolution.

So if you’re one of the 99% of people reading this who haven’t donated anything yet, all we’d ask is that you think about whether independence is important enough to you that it’s maybe worth kicking in £10 once a year – 19p a week – for.

David slew Goliath in the end, of course. But he needed the stones.

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    1. 16 06 19 12:56

      Call answered | speymouth

    288 to “Call answered”

    1. Fergus Green says:

      I think you said previously Stuart that every £ donated means 4 more Wee Blue Book 2s can be produced and dropped through letter boxes. Something for the 99% to consider.

    2. panda paws says:

      I’ve not funded you due to financial constraints rather than any lack of appreciation. My spare pennies have gone to IScot magazine because they are more skint and it would be a shame for it to fold as it’s very good.

      But if you can give, give to a pro-independence outlet. If you’ve nae money give of your time and expertise.

    3. I’m in the 1% Club. How about we change the name to the 2% Club?

    4. call me dave says:

      As promised 2nd donation this time monthly £10.

      PS:
      Volvo passenger seat belt mechanism fitted… (e-bay).
      But still costly. 🙁

      Anyhoo!

      The queen can now sit up in the front again. 🙂

      Worth every 1p .

    5. Clootie says:

      Although I am one of the one percent. I have a feeling my SNP Direct Debit for membership may need a new home shortly. I await the expected announcement which will push me over the edge.

    6. I probably fall into your 99%,not proud of the fact,I am 76 this year,I go to all the marches/walks.I have supported Manny Singh over his threatened court case,I write a lot,some days better than others,I have no time for the overpaid branch office charlatans in Westminster,the sooner Indy is done the better,.I donate over £40 to various charities animals(who cannot defend themselves),military in homes,and some monies in support of indy.I buy the National every day and keep in touch with everyone as possible,I do read your comments.I fully understand what you are saying,we are fighting a very corrupt Westminster.Finally I look out for thieving sods when contributing money.More than willing to give money.

    7. defo says:

      Small donation made.
      Happy now?
      🙂

    8. Elizabeth Sutherland says:

      Donated not as much as previous calls but a WBB for a waiverer is worth a dip in meagre savings.
      Free Scotland from Westminster Theivery.

    9. Cobo3 says:

      First time commenting.
      Monthly donation set up.
      Thanks for all the great work your are doing.

    10. Ian mhor says:

      Should Wings move to a paywall?
      If a nominal fee is £1 per month (well, 76p as per OP)
      Would that really drive people away, or render the site inaccessible to many people. The model of having partial articles free to view may be tantalising/frustrating enough to nudge people to subscribe.

      Would it mean a proliferation of punters archiving the articles for free consumption and negate the potential benefits? No idea, but I’m sure the concept has been cogitated at length.

      Personally, I wouldn’t have an issue. I do have a disposable £1 per month and I do have the knowledge and accounts to enable e-payments. I tend to chip in equivalents or more periodically rather than subscribe. Why not currently subscribe? Well actually I’ve no idea. Some tentative aversion to DD’s deeply rooted in the psyche perhaps, or just laziness – Anyway, I have the wherewithal to subscribe on similar terms, but perhaps many cannot.

      I suppose its a balance between reach (currently large) and income (currently relatively low) I’d be edging to paywall if it was me, even for a trial few months, or maybe just finger in the air with a readers poll on the site; but it isn’t me who decides and perhaps thats just as well, I’m crap at decisions. Except for Indy, that was easy.

    11. patricia young says:

      K, another £25 – now I’m skint! Hope this helps.? PS I want a 1% badge n happy to pay for it.

    12. Ian mhor says:

      Hi @patricia young 2:58pm

      I’m not entirely sure a 1% badge is a good idea.
      There are a few “1%er” motorcycle clubs who may take an exception to it, however inadvertently displayed.
      Sad but true.

    13. Lynnie H says:

      Just chipped in a wee monthly donation, keep up the good work Stu.

    14. Clootie says:

      Ian Mhor

      I had never heard of this and had to look it up 🙂

      “1% Motorcycle Club” is commonly used to describe outlaw motorcycle clubs such as the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club, the Bandidos Motorcycle Club, Pagans Motorcycle Club or the Outlaws Motorcycle Club, as the other 99% of motorcycle riders are law-abiding citizens.

    15. geeo says:

      Ian Mhor

      If 1% currently donate, then a paywall will simply mean 99% will potentially never read wings again.

      That would be catastrophic for the indy cause, surely ?

    16. Ian mhor says:

      @geeo 3:29pm

      Yeah, that’s possible. But then again, why donate if its free and how many would really be put off. They must want to consume the content for reasons other than ‘ach its free’.
      In the finest traditions of Indyref, why not put it to the ‘electorate’ of readers – never know how to gauge it otherwise. I was thinking perhaps just a site opinion poll.

      Nominal paywall £x.xx Yes/No

      If No, what reasons.

      A/ Don’t have the disposable income

      B/ Don’t have banking/accounts

      C/ Privacy concerns

      Or anything else I haven’t thought of. The readership only has to click the poll, doesnn’t cist anyrhing to do that. Wings runs other ‘survey’ polls, might as well glean some important insight on something which might raise the game considerably.
      Just a thought, I mean I’m not agitating for it to happen or anything.

    17. Illy says:

      Not going to contribute anything to Wings while Stu is rabble-rousing to stop me using public toilets.

    18. Ian mhor says:

      @ Clootie 3:28pm

      In our neck of the woods it would be the “Blue Angels” and probably “Tribe 21” support club.
      May not be a big deal, but they do tend be very protective over the title.

    19. John Jones says:

      Must have missed something! How is Stuart stopping you using public toilets?

    20. Hamish100 says:

      Illy says:
      16 June, 2019 at 3:51 pm
      Not going to contribute anything to Wings while Stu is rabble-rousing to stop me using public toilets.

      Can you no use your own!

    21. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Ian mhor

      You either want independence or you don’t,I do that is why I contribute. I don’t give a shit about whether other people do or don’t as long as it can be accessed freely by all.

    22. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Geeo

      Much as it pains me to agree with you, my normal reaction to being faced with registration requests, demands to disable ad-blocker and being asked to subscribe to newspapers, journals and websites that I may never want to read again … is to move on.

      “Free” registration is the worst…only to be undertaken in extreme circumstances with a bogus e-mail address that you never check – but watch out for the pernicious pop ups that are sure to follow.

    23. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Ian mhor

      For the first-timer … Can’t be arsed would be a biggie.

    24. Alabaman says:

      Answered the call Stew,
      What do you think of “The Sunday Post” front page today, where they demand Jean Freeman resigns ?.
      Little wonder I stopped buying that ,and its weekly/daily cousin years ago.

    25. Petra says:

      O/T

      Has anyone noticed this being reported by the BBC / STV or newspapers (other than the National)? Anyone managed to find Ruth Davidson to question her about this?

      ‘WGD:- ‘The Bah Hah Men.’

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/06/15/the-bah-hah-men/

    26. schrodingers cat says:

      Ian mhor says:
      16 June, 2019 at 2:16 pm
      Should Wings move to a paywall?

      no, but it should allow adverts to raise money, big companies (eg, mars and m&ms, official sponsers of the war in gulf) only care about clicks

      getting them to fund wbb2 would drive the unionists apeshit 🙂

    27. schrodingers cat says:

      imagine stu advertising eg cornetto, going viral ??

      “I love to rub my nipple it a raspberry ripple” 🙂

      and you could be guarenteed that such adverts would be shared across social media 🙂

      you can complain about stus language or opinions all you like but what is unquestionable is his ability to attract people to his blog.

      this is a potentially huge source of untapped revinue for yes, it could fund as many ads on tv as the daily record has?

    28. geeo says:

      @iain mhor: why donate if its free ?
      ……..

      Missing the point surely when only 1% donate, and that is within the current full readership ?

      If you had to pay to read, the reality is, wings reach would diminish to the point of being extremely damaging to the indy cause.

      Papers are dying on their arse, and their response was to hide content behind paywalls, any guess how that strategy is working for their readership figures ?

      You are getting into “gibbering pish” territory here (indide joke) so cease and desist !!

    29. schrodingers cat says:

      it = with

    30. ewen says:

      Sorry it is late this time. A wee bit skint this year.

    31. Cubby says:

      IIIly@3.51pm

      You just contributed your opinion. A valid opinion in your mind but if you are an independence supporter get your hand in your wallet/purse.

      Too many freeloaders.

    32. Not Convinced says:

      Rather than restricting Wings to those that are willing to pay, would restricting the ability to comment to those willing to pay not be a better idea? (If one wants to go down this route at all of course.). That way the 99% can continue to read if they wish.

      As a bonus, any ultra-unionists who wanted to comment would have to contribute!

    33. Ian mhor says:

      @geeo 5:09pm

      Awa and havers (not slevers lol) the only way to know is ask the question – currently we are both merely speculating.

      As for the papers paywalls still dying, I’d speculate its
      A/ Because the content is rank
      B/ Any cost is too much to view rank content

      The point I was suggesting is aye, sure there may be a mindset of: “if Wings is free, why pay anything, even a donation” I mean, the nominal paywall fee mentioned is far better value than any other paywall I know of and the content far better.

      What are the other 99% reading Wings for? I dare say a good section keeping tabs on the “opposition” – the rest are surely Indy minded and Wings afficianados, what’s ten bob every six months to advance the cause? Absolutely and of course (as the Rev always points out) never pay what you can’t afford and I’d never want to disenfranchise huge swathes of genuine readers and supporters – nor am I trying to villify those who don’t donate money. Many donate time and effort to the cause in other ways.

      I acknowledge there may well be issues like that if it was implemented, but how can we know what the issues are without asking? Might get a surprise, what’s the downside to just asking readers the question, What am I missing there?

    34. Jim Arnott says:

      I have just made my third donation to this years Fundraiser and am just about to set up a DD for Wings.

      Yes I appreciate the value of Wings to the independence movement and I can afford to make these contributions.

      I am sure many more Wingers can afford to contribute but somehow it just slips by them. I think Stu should make the Donate Button more prominent. He even had to remind me the button existed and I should have remembered this.

      Even just a wee reminder regularly by Stu to donate a bob or two via the Donate Button but only if you can afford it might make a big difference to the funds raised for the cause.

    35. Jim Arnott says:

      By the way, how many Wingers know that there is a Donate button at the top of the :

      http://www.wingsoverscotland.com

      website

      Just interested to know

    36. TJenny says:

      Been with Wings from the start. Always donate to the crowdfunder. One of life’s joys is watching the total go up and up. 🙂

      My opinion – no ads and defo no feckin paywall. Even if people don’t or can’t donate, if they’re reading Wings, then they’re still getting the message, so why disrupt that? Mmm?

      Totally against a’1%’ badge. Crivvens, surely the last thing Wingers want to be is elitist. If you want to be a 1% elitist, there’s always Bella, as that’s about the size of their readership compared to ours.

    37. Dorothy Devine says:

      TJenny, absolutely! Spot on!

    38. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian mhor at 4:01 pm

      You typed,
      “In our neck of the woods it would be the “Blue Angels” and probably “Tribe 21” support club.
      May not be a big deal, but they do tend be very protective over the title.”

      There were/are chapters of “Satan’s Slaves” in both Dundee/Tayside and Fife. The Tayside lot were regulars in Jaspers Rock Club in Dundee in the early 90s, when I DJ’d there. I got on with them fine but it didn’t pay to ‘disrespect’ them. The Fifers were occasional visitors.

      See:

      https://onepercenterbikers.com/satans-slaves-mc-motorcycle-club/

      https://i.warosu.org/data/fa/img/0097/14/1429310488380.jpg

      There are also videos on YouTube of SS funerals, at least one in Fife.

    39. Illy says:

      “Must have missed something! How is Stuart stopping you using public toilets?”

      Which minority group that isn’t anything to do with Scottish Independence or football does Stu regularly post rants about?

      Hint: The latest one is still on the front page.

    40. Nana says:

      @TJenny

      Snap, and I agree with every word of your post (especially the last sentence) 🙂

    41. schrodingers cat says:

      no ads and defo no feckin paywall. Even if people don’t or can’t donate, if they’re reading Wings, then they’re still getting the message, so why disrupt that? Mmm?

      ——————-
      ads on the side of the page and eg, messages from sponsers etc in comments sections, are common place on newpaper sites and even on twitter. they are a tad annoying and distracting but so are some regular posters, folk just scroll past them. small price to pay to generate a potentially huge revenue to offset the unionist groups dark money funding

    42. Doug says:

      Hope the Rev will not be angry if I mention scotgoespop and its current funding. £1,000 to go.

      https://www.gofundme.com/james-kelly-scot-goes-pop-2019

    43. Alabaman says:

      T Jenny,
      Totally agree, ( like you, been a regular reader from the earliest, but have limited my comments ).

    44. TJenny says:

      Next thing someone will suggest we charge fo WBBs 🙁 – not everything is about money and keeping the site free gives much wider access to disputing the msm and unionist lies and indy info across the population.

      Also have you tried reading The National web pages with all their pop-up ads. So annoying.

    45. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If one searches BBC Scotland online news one eventually finds a report on the large independence march through Oban yesterday.

      It finishes with the the statement “The pro-union group A Force for Good said it videoed the rally and counted 1,757 people taking part.”

      So the question is who is “A Force for Good”?
      What official status does it have in any sense?”
      Why was its opinion allowed to be reported in a BBC news item?
      Did the BBC ask the march organisers how many people they estimated?
      Who produced this unacceptable and completely inaccurate report for the BBC?
      Who supervises their news output and th reliability of it ?
      Can they provide any evidence that this report was checked for accuracy?

      There is considerable footage of the march and the numbers can easily be checked.
      Did the BBC think to do so?

      I was there. 7000 is a conservative estimate.

    46. Ian mhor says:

      @BDTT 6:23pm

      Oh aye, well minded!

    47. schrodingers cat says:

      some sites are more agressive with their adverts (frequent pop ups etc- see stv website)

      it isnt about charging people for a wbb2. it is about ensuring they get a copy.

      presently, the recent crowd fund has paid for about 100,000, half that we bought in indyref2.

      you can be certain that the postman will deliver mountains of unionist literature to every house in scotland they already do.

      do you have a spare £1m for us to counteract this? no?

      do you have an idea how we can raise these funds?

      or are you limited to knocking down other peoples suggestions?

    48. schrodingers cat says:

      not everything is about money

      of course not………. thats why the unionists dont funnel £millions into the unionist campaign.

      thats why presedential us candidates never spend a dime trying to get elected.

      thats why companies dont waste millions advertising their products via junk mail.

      what do satchi and satchi know……….. eh?

    49. Ian mhor says:

      Eh? Who said anything about pop-up ads?
      They do things shite, therefore we canny do it because we’d do the same thing and be just as shite. That’s one of the arguments against Independence.
      I only pondered what the support would be for such a thing and why not just ask?
      No never, no asking the question either. Is that not another one of those arguments against independence.

      Things are fine as they are, there’s no appetite for changing the status quo and thats empirically based on no data whatsoever.
      That’s another argument against independence.

      I wish I hadn’t started hahah.

    50. geeo says:

      Iain mhor @5.44pm

      The fact you even want to consider a paywall is dodgy as fuck.

      The fact you are now doggedly promoting it is even more dodgy.

      You ask what the “other 99%” are doing?

      They are reading the articles, and going off onto social media to PROMOTE the content far and wide.

      300,000 wings readers soon reaches well over 1 million and much more.

      Stick up a paywall and watch as the 1% of donators, becomes 0.5% (1500 subscribers) and suddenly the incredible reach of wings has vanished.

      In fact, in reality, Wings would vanish, as there is no way “the 1%” (3000 subscribers) could possibly finance Wings to the current standard of investigative reporting full time.

      It is simple reality, people will not rush to pay for something which has always been free, no matter what it is.

      Bottom line is, anyone wanting a paywall on here, wants Wings to fail, or simply wants to be an ‘elitist’ indy supporter on an ego trip.

      The blog owner explicitely states that nobody who cannot afford to donate should feel obliged to do so.

      But YOU want to exclude them completely.

      And THAT is why the paywall question should never even be asked for this place.

    51. MaggieC says:

      Just sent a donation to the fundraiser through PayPal , I just wish it could have been more but every little helps to get the wee blue book out again .
      I’m just watching these Tory eejits on the Ch 4 debate right now , sooner we’re out of this toxic Union the better .

    52. galamcennalath says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      A Force for Good

      A quick google reveals their website. (No links posted here obviously)

      “A Force For Good © Copyright 2018. Trading name of AFFG Productions Ltd, a company registered in Scotland 533791.

      https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC533791

      A quick google of directors shown who’s who.

      And THEN that really does make you wonder what the Hell the BBC are doing using this as a reputable source.

    53. Alabaman says:

      Iain mhor @ anytime.
      Decide and rule eh?.

    54. TJenny says:

      Iain Mhor – are you really Bella and if so can I claim £5? 😉

      Stuey tweeted an hour ago that we were only £600 off £160k. Happy day. Hope it goes even higher, think he should let it run ’til after the end of the month. ( a lot of folks’ payday).

    55. Cubby says:

      The British media lying again about the size of the independence march in Oban.

      Lies, deceit, misrepresentation, omission of information, corruption and oppression all brought down the Soviet Union. The same will happen with the UK.

    56. manandboy says:

      1% of readers support Wings

      As with football, where there’s a mix of ‘fans’ and ‘supporters’, but only supporters go to the matches, so also in politics. It is clear that Independence has many ‘fans’, but far fewer supporters. What makes a fan become a supporter, I’ve no idea.
      All I know is I’m an Independence supporter and all I can do is support Stu, support SNP, go on the marches, wear the badges, fly the Saltire, comment on Wings, and elsewhere, when I’ve something to say, and hope and pray for Independence, no longer for myself but for the younger generation and those not yet born. Oh, and continue to abstain from all TV.
      It isn’t always easy of course and maybe that’s a clue as to why 99% don’t financially support Stu. Fans tend to want things to be really simple and easy, otherwise they don’t bother, especially if, as with politics, they consume large quantities of BritNat indoctrination, as on the BBC and Sky, in the Daily Mail and Daily Record, the Herald the Sun and Metro

      But that’s life.

    57. Cubby says:

      The Battle of the Bastards ( minus the big fat bastard ) C4

      Gove is so full of himself that he surely must have had a wee bit of the white stuff. Drug tests after it has finished?

      Someone should buy Stewart a double cheese burger.

    58. Ian mhor says:

      Och ye’s are roastin ma heart.
      Reading comprehension failure and revisionism of the first water.
      For the hard of thinking:

      I pondered how many people would support the idea of a minimalist paywall, I suggested the only way to know that would be to ask the readers. Well, I certainly know the answer from the tiniest fraction of a tiny fraction who read Wings. Say no more, all the empirical data I could ever need

      Agitating for it? Are ye’s for real?

    59. Hamish100 says:

      Mundell backs Gove. What he doesn’t agree with Davidson!!

      She is losing her grip on her Tory leadership

    60. pool9 says:

      Second donation made in the name of others who would like to, but can’t right now.

    61. Alabaman says:

      @ 7:16 pm,
      “Divide and rule” eh?.
      Bugger autocorrect!!.

    62. galamcennalath says:

      WM has a totally undemocratic system for choosing PM.

      Holyrood as an infinitely better one for First Minister. The Parliament as a whole votes.

      To remind ourselves…

      In 2014, after Alec Salmond stood down as FM, Nicola Sturgeon won the vote with 66 votes against Ruth Davidson’s 15. (No sniggering at the back). There were 39 abstentions.

      In 2016, after the election, Nicola Sturgeon won with 63 against Willie Rennie’s 5. There were 59 abstentions.

    63. John Jones says:

      dead against a paywall, as a pensioner with limited funds I steer clear of any sites which require any use of my information,I’m not that good at blocking rubbish so don’t risk asking for any. I give to wings when I can afford it, as I imagine a lot of others in my position do, what does happen though is I spread the word of the site far and wide to all I talk to, certainly worth as much as a donation. I have introduced a large number of people to wings and distributed the wee black book when I had them, the message is spreading and I have found quite a few have change their opinion since reading this site.
      By the way tried to find what Stu was ranting about (minorities) on front page? couldn’t find it. perhaps us old fuddy duddies are just too thick.

    64. Cubby says:

      The Battle of the Bastards.

      Gove gives it big licks re how great he was as Education secretary. I wonder what his success criteria was.

      However, Hunt says that ” a quarter of primary school leavers are unable to read and write properly. We have 7 million adults who are functionally illiterate.” Was Hunt talking to Andrew Neill before the show? How many of the 7 million vote leave? Or are the 7 million the people who don’t vote? Or is Hunt just talking mince?

    65. TJenny says:

      schrodingers cat – ‘presently, the recent crowd fund has paid for about 100,000, (WBBs) half that we bought in indyref2’. I’m surmising you meant indyref1.

      How does a record breaking total in the crowdfunder end up providing less than half the number of WBBs than in 2014?

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      @TJenny says: 16 June, 2019 at 6:20 pm:

      … My opinion – no ads and defo no feckin paywall. Even if people don’t or can’t donate”

      100% correct TJenny, there are only 3 purposes I can think of for walls – Keeping something in, keeping something out or keeping something held up.

      We do not want any of them for Wings.

    67. Petra says:

      ‘Britain’s next PM’ was on Channel 4 earlier. Everyone there except for Boris the Clown. Just beggars belief.

      All coming out with a load of blah blah blah about what they’re going to do for the poor, children, students, people with autism, the elderly, the sick and so on. One wonders why they haven’t bothered to do anything for any of these groups of people up until now. In fact have made their lives a bl**dy misery.

      Rory the Tory got most of the applause. Few clapped for Gove. Gove still lying about his father’s business. Hunt mentioned that 25% of children in Britain leave primary school unable to read and write. By Britain I presume he meant England. We’ll need to remember that the next time they mouth off about Scottish education.

      ……………

      Brewer covered the gender self ID issue this morning. I didn’t hear all of what was said but he had a woman on (didn’t pick up on her name) who said that women’s refuges (in the north?) can refuse to admit individuals who have decided to self ID. If that’s correct it looks as though some scaremongering has been going on in relation to this element of the issue.

    68. TJenny says:

      WOS twitter ‘Another milestone passed: all-sources total now stands at £160,235’. Yipppeeeee. Let’s keep it going folks. 😉

    69. TJenny says:

      Robert Peffers – true, true and true.
      x

    70. winifred mccartney says:

      The most ridiculous debate ever, as someone above says why have they not done these things before for the elderly, or the mentally unwell, for for the 25%???? who cannot read or write.

      They were so busy covering one anothers backs, Hunt backing Gove over his cocaine, what about the teachers who lost their jobs forever 25 years ago or nurses struck off for drug offences but never mind if you are rich enough it can all be hushed up and you get off scot free. Their hypocrisy stinks to high heavens on benefits, housing, social care and everything else.

      Its still you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours, lining one another up for cabinet posts. According to Laura K, Boris has promised Home Sec to 4 people.

    71. Bob Mack says:

      The classic of the debate tonight was when Gove was asked why the Government did not get the right deal

      “Because the Government was incompetent” says he who served as a Minister during the whole time.

      Oh dear. What a reason to elect him eh?

    72. Essexexile says:

      geeo @7pm
      Agreed about not having the paywall for viewing content for the reasons you give but payment for BTL input? Worth thinking about.
      Might improve the tone and root out the phoneys. Doubt it would make a huge amount but every bit helps.

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I think there should be a WoS paywall – well, more like an annual subscription instead – but for BTL posters only. Then we might get less spacewasting and even the trolls would be contributing! =laugh=

    74. Robert Peffers says:

      @Illy says: 16 June, 2019 at 6:24 pm:

      ” … Which minority group that isn’t anything to do with Scottish Independence or football does Stu regularly post rants about?”

      Ever though, Illy, that there may be a reason for Stu ranting about certain minority groups?

      Just on the last thread I asked questions about certain issues that seemed to be causing no end of trouble on social media. Now the reason I was asking questions was because I knew nothing about the issues all the bother was about.

      Initially I got no answers from anyone so I had a go at finding out what all the bitterness was about and what seemed to me to be strange accusations flying around.

      Now the thing was I couldn’t find a thing on either the SNP websites nor on the Holyrood parliament website that justified the bitterness and actual threats that were flying about.

      The initial act of Parliament turned out to be a Westminster act and not Holyrood and the only thing I could find was information that the Scottish Government were holding a review of the Westminster Act with a view to presenting a bill at Holyrood to amend the Westminster act of parliament.

      Now consider that a bill is a motion, or proposal, put to a parliament in order to initiate a debate and a vote. Only after this is does, and a royal signature obtained, does a bill become an act of parliament and thus a law.

      Thing is the review has not yet happened, never mind the debate and vote or obtaining of the royal signature.

      So what the hell is all the idiotic bitterness and threats or actual violence supposed to achieve? Yet here you are ramping up the matter here on Wings and all that will achieve is turning people against your interventions. Would it not be more sensible to wait until the SNP/SG and Holyrood actually does something wrong before getting all bitter about it?

    75. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 20:44,

      Well, I likely know less than you on this subject, and no doublt I will be rapidly corrected if I have this wrong, but my understanding is that the review you mention has already been completed.

      And it’s the contents of that review which is exercising people. Not least because there is every likelihood that the SNP MSPs will be whipped to pass the ensuing SG legislation when it reaches the chamber, whatever our view of it may be.

      And do untold damage all the while to the cause of indepndence at this crucial juncture.

      So no obvious justification for complacency, it would seem.

    76. chicmac says:

      Dominic Raab came over as the love child of Rick Mayall and Greg Davies, only with subtler faux sincerity, therefore funnier.

      Hunt had a veneer of reasonableness until his ‘make Britain great again’ trope, when his eyes momentarily flared with what looked to me like nazi-esque zeal.

      Best line of the night was when Rory De Tory said ‘When one of us becomes Prime Minister…’ then looking along the line of candidates sans BoJo: ‘…and I hope it is one of US,…’ [his emphasis].

    77. Robert Thomas says:

      Hi Stu,

      I would love to be able to donate to every single group that sends me emails asking me for money!

      They come to my Inbox on a daily basis from:

      Greenpeace,
      Amnesty,
      Friends of the Earth,
      Change.org,
      Avaast,
      38Degrees,
      Care2,
      a Multitude of Animal Charities,
      LGBTQ+ Rights Groups
      Freedom from Torture,
      Appeals for Disaster Relief, etc. etc. etc.

      The list is truly endless!
      Most of these I get simply because I gave my consent to go on one groups’ mailing list!

      I recognise that it is a mark of the total failure of EVERY Government, to date, to provide proper support, for its people in need, that fact is what makes the existence ‘Charities’ a sad necessity.

      However, they really should not exist at all! If they did not exist would that pressurize the Governments to actually act?

      Aren’t the Charities just being ‘enablers’? Letting the Governments off the financial hook? Hmmm!

      That is a difficult question; I know, and I don’t have any good answers I’m afraid. Maybe some Wings supporters do?

      Ok, here’s the thing:

      I am on disability benefits and I am really struggling to, emotionally, and financially, deal with all of these endless petitions for money! It really gets to you after a while.

      It’s not just Wings, it’s everyone!
      So much need and so few resources! So, heartbreaking though it is, I have no option but to make some very hard choices.

      As far as Wings is concerned, you seem to be getting
      “more than it expected” by your own admission Stu.
      You are even getting a living out of it, again by your own admission. I am not grudging you this as we all have to live.

      But, in view of that, I guess you can keep going well enough without me.

      I am very active on line sharing issues for the Yes campaign and arguing the toss with a parade of, seemingly endless, tossers claiming that:

      “The Union is Great!” and
      “We don’t need ayone else!” and
      “We don’t need facts or experts!”
      “Because we’re just Great!”

      I actually saw someone in a ‘Vox-POps’ onm Facebook (a Brexiter) being interviewed in the street, making every one of those statements! He also made some typical comments about all these ‘immigrants’, mnost of which don’t even come from Europe, which I won’t repeat here!

      FFS! I really despair about some people!

      But back to the main point:

      I will, of course keep sharing Wings articles to my Public Timeline but, sadly, that’s as far as I can go.

      I will always sign and back ALL worthwhile petitions for action on unfair deportations and all the rest; many of which have had excellent results, so we know that public presure works!

      When there is a particularly dire need, i.e. people’s lives are at stake, then I will dig deep into what resources I have, but please don’t encourage suypporters to ‘have a go’ at people who might be struggling just to cope with the endless requests for money on a daily basis! The emotional stress of this is really very high for a lot of us!

      Most will not comment on it but I felt I had to, at least on behalf of those who don’t feel they can put their heades above the parapet.

      I will continue to do everything I can, to get Scotland free from this toxic ‘Union’ but please remember we also have to live, or we won’t be helping anyone!

      I’m glad you said ‘people should not donate if they are struggling’, it needed saying and I think it needs to be said a bit louder, for everyone to hear it.

      In that, I think I’ve done my bit.

      Onward to Self-Determination!

      Kind Regards,
      Bob Thomas.

    78. Terry callachan says:

      Sorry I have to say that I think the wings over Scotland site should stay as it is if you make it accessible only to those who prove they have paid money to wings the discussion on the site will shrink and the numbers visiting will plummet .

      People will pay if they can and if they believe in the cause enough to do so those are the only two requirements in my view.

      As for those who say they won’t pay because
      wings over Scotland doesn’t agree with the Scottish governments
      review of the gender recognition act 2004
      I say get a grip , there are many things that where total agreement will never be possible
      self identity of ones gender is one of those things where total agreement will never occur
      That’s okay , really it is okay, total agreement is not needed to make improvements to legislation or to how we live our lives , improvements can and should be made if it’s the right thing to do.

      Let’s wait and see what the consultation report contains when it is published and we can then make up our minds about it.
      Just closing off discussion is wrong and making a decision on the consultation before it is reported on by the Scottish government is wrong.

    79. Col.Blimp IV says:

      If the SG/SNP are contemplating doing something stupid, wrong or simply something you disagree with, it would seem sensible to kick up a fuss… it is the squeaky hinge that gets the oil after all.

      But no doubt the powers that be will be of the opinion that it is their civic duty to lead public opinion, not follow it … and we will all end up looking like self-designated dicks, or fannies as the case may be.

    80. Gerry says:

      @robert peffer 8:44

      I sympathise with your position greatly. I pointed out to Stu yesterday on twitter what his birth certificate actually says on it re ID, and for my trouble I got blocked than put on a “list” for yessers to be encouraged to block.

      Keep in mind now, that wings is encouraging yessers to block each other on the basis of their gender views, or even for just disagreeing with Stu’s obsession with gender issues. Nothing to do with their independence views.

      That’s not what Stu takes 100k+ for a year.

      And Stu – anytime you want that debate about ID and the reality of law, just say the word and we will record it and stream it, so people can see how utterly bereft of any research your opinions on this issue are.

      You’ll never see another penny from me, and that is because you are unable to seperate your views on indy with your weird obsession on gender.

      Had my eyes opened to Stu in a big way recently.

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 16 June, 2019 at 8:54 pm:

      ” … I will be rapidly corrected if I have this wrong, but my understanding is that the review you mention has already been completed.”

      Well not according to the Holyrood Parliament website, but what the hell would they know anyway?

      Then there is the wee fact that when I asked for any kind of information from anyone here on Wings I didn’t get a single answer at the time.

      I subsequently did get one reply but unfortunately when I tried to thank Capella I had a strange glitch that has re-occurred on my machine several times. My reply vanished as I was still typing and I had no idea if it had posted or not.

      Anyway, even if the review has indeed taken place it seems not to have been published in the public domain – and rightly so – for the correct place to reveal it is in the chamber at Holyrood to the parliament before being placed in the public domain. Which beggars the question of who leaked it – and why?

      Even then it can only be the SG’s review and that is only their review and will need to be placed before parliament as a bill, then debated and voted upon.

      Therefore there is, as yet, no bill or Act of Parliament. Seems to me, and I’m not blaming either faction, it is rather early to be fighting and threatening people at this point. By the way I have no axe to grind in the matter but only object to the fighting about it before there is really anything to fight about.

      If my reading about the matter has shown me anything it is that other countries have legislated on the matter and I read no reports of the same kind of trouble exhibited here in Scotland. It makes me wonder if there has been dark forces, with dark money, behind the matter.

    82. Petra says:

      @ Gerry at 9:15pm …….

      Interesting!

    83. Proud Cybernat says:

      Aye Gerry – I blocked you too. Not because I have any issues with rights of transgender people but because I have issues with people who use transgender issues to manufacture grievance. People like you. People who try to split the indy movement with this crap.

      We see you. You’re fooling no one.

      Jog on.

    84. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 8.21 PM

      So the candidates are all for helping children. Really?

      In the last few days there have been stories in the papers – eg the Guardian – of schools in England applying to charities for money to help with school expenses and children’s hospices in England having to cut back on the number of children and their families to whom they can offer respite care because the UK Government has cut the money they promised.

      A nice bunch, not

    85. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – the review of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 has already taken place and ended in May 2018. The report is published on the Scottish Government website along with supporting papers. Here is the factsheet which I posted on the previous thread spelling out that the SG intends to reform the Act to make SelfID possible.

      That means that people who are biologically male will be able to assert that they are female and demand access to women only services and facilities. It will be illegal to refuse.

      https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0054/00545198.pdf

      I also posted a factsheet from Forwomen Scotland spelling out the advice already adopted in schools, hospitals, prisons and other services.

      https://forwomen.scot/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/FWS-Briefing-Notes-January-2019.pdf

      Since the Greens are very committed to transgender issues it’s possible that there will be a majority in Holyrood for passing a bill promoting Self ID. However, many SNP MSPs will oppose.

      Surely such a radical change should be debated and adopted at conference?

    86. Phronesis says:

      The Zaller effect- a smoke and mirrors quality of public debate about important issues, elite disagreement to produce conflicting messages that confuse the public and generate citizen doubt and opposition- the NHS, the effects of global warming, arming corrupt regimes, land reform- the list of payoff-motivated politicking is long.
      http://wikisum.com/w/Zaller:_The_nature_and_origins_of_mass_opinion

      Elites funded by significant sums of dark money from difficult to trace sources serve to confuse the public and by using pseudo –preferences and pseudo –identities produce works of fiction motivated with no conviction or integrity but occupy the expensive space of deliberative democracy to undermine democracy.

      Indy supporting sites are monetarily poor but citizen resource rich- there is no smoke and mirrors of tainted finance pushing corrupt lobbyists and influencing weak minded politicians. With collective effort as citizens we co-author and disseminate the truth, not carefully crafted lies.

      Scottish independence has ideological convergence within the YES movement that defies the smoke and mirrors debate of the current political set up of the disunited kingdom. It can’t be bought out, it can’t be fragmented, no amount of expensive mind games will shift the belief that Scotland will soon gain its independence because the reasoning is rooted in truth, justice, ethics, democracy and the narrative is shared by its citizens.

    87. TJenny says:

      Phronesis – aint that the truth. It’s what discombobulates the unionists the most. 🙂

    88. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says:16 June, 2019 at 9:49 pm:

      @ Gerry at 9:15pm …

      ” … Aye Gerry – I blocked you too. Not because I have any issues with rights of transgender people but because I have issues with people who use transgender issues to manufacture grievance.”

      That is, more or less, what my view is except I don’t block anyone but do scroll on past stuff I just cannot be bothered with reading again. I’m not taking sides in the issue as I know little about it but I too object to the unnecessary bitterness and threats going on even before the matter is brought before parliament.

      As I understand it the SG is reviewing the Westminster act with a view to improving it but the review has not even been presented as a bill before parliament so just how do those fighting over it know what the score is?

    89. Gerry says:

      proud cybernat. I am really not trying to split up anything. I merely pointed out what the law says about birth certificates. I have no opinion on the gender issue, beyond an interest in the legislation.
      All I pointed out is what the law says, and where Stu was wrong. Talking nonsense about BCs and gender isn’t a good look. And encouraging yessers to block each other is not something that I would do.
      And cyber – you only talk for yourself, so drop the “we” pish ok. I’ve made my point here, politely enough, and the fact remains that wings encourages yessers to block each other by adding people to lists for their views on the law surrounding gender ID. That’s not what Stu takes 100k+ a year for.

      I don’t have an issue with you blocking me – that’s fine.

    90. Tam Fae Somewhere says:

      Why are we getting Conservative leader debates on the television?

      The voters are just MPs and then the final vote is just Conservative members. Surely the Conservative party should be paying for what is their election rather than freeloading on television programmes?

      I guess it just shows how few active members they have left out in the real world….

    91. Clootie says:

      On the various theories on how to run the site….I thought it was Stus call!

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gerry says:16 June, 2019 at 10:21 pm:

      ” … Talking nonsense about BCs and gender isn’t a good look. And encouraging yessers to block each other is not something that I would do.”

      Gerry, are you perhaps mixing up Rev Stu’s Twitter account with the Wings Blog?

      I do not do Twitter and I have seen nothing on Wings with Stu blocking anyone or urging Wingers to block anyone about this matter. Twitter is not Wings. Twitter is Stu’s thing it is not Wings.

    93. Capella says:

      I should have added – since this issue will generate a massive backlash against the SNP and the Greens IMO, it could well be a carefully engineered trap for the unwary “progressive” members of the SG. So you may be right to suspect black ops.

      Without an indy majority in Holyrood, there will be no independence referendum. As I’ve said before, if I was a Unionist scheming to destroy public support for the SNP, this is exactly the sort of deeply unpopular issue I would promote.

    94. Gerry says:

      @robert 10:31

      I don’t mind so much Stu blocking me on twitter from the wings account – it’s mainly gender stuff he rants about these days anyhow.

      What I am objecting to is that I was placed ona “list” on twitter because I pointed out the law re BCs. The list encourages other indy supporters to also block me on the basis of that objection rather than anything to do with indy.

      Stu is using his platform to divide indy supporters by adding people to block lists for their views on gender, or in my case, for pointing out a massive legal error in his research.

    95. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      My own thoughts.

      “Certificates”, whether they be educational achievement, marriage, death or birth, are factual, historically, accurate documents.

      They should be set in stone.

      When you start to rewrite history, you’re opening a diet of worms.

      1,984 worms…

    96. Capella says:

      What legal error?

    97. TJenny says:

      Clootie – indeed, and I remember he asked us a while ago about ads on the site and those who bothered commenting said no. He seems happy to run it on voluntary donations, as do I.

    98. Gerry says:

      Capella – I pointed out that a birth certificate is not proof of identity. It says it right there on the certificate that it shouldn’t be taken as such. A birth cert creates a legal fiction, no more, no less.
      It’s a point of law. I really have no views on the topic beyond that.

    99. Capella says:

      @ BDTT – my thoughts too. We currently have no way of knowing how many women there are in Scotland because the 2011 Census allowed trans people to answer whatever they chose. That means that we have no reliable statistics on women’s health, educational attainment, employment status, crimes committed etc. That was National Records Scotland decision AFAIK.

      It’s not possible to plan policy outcomes if you don’t have reliable data.

      Recently the SG announced proudly that they had met their target of gender equality on public boards. How do they know? It is possible that every “woman” on a board is a transgender woman and therefore biologically male. How does that promote equality for women who have been discriminated against because they are biological women?

    100. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Gerry at 10:49 pm.

      You typed,
      “Capella – I pointed out that a birth certificate is not proof of identity. It says it right there on the certificate that it shouldn’t be taken as such. A birth cert creates a legal fiction, no more, no less.
      It’s a point of law. I really have no views on the topic beyond that.”

      How does a “birth cert creates a legal fiction”? It defines your mother, your father and your sex. Where does the fiction enter the equation? Am I missing something?

    101. Capella says:

      @ Gerry – a birth certificate records sex at birth. That should not be altered any more than date, time and place of birth and mother and father. IMO

    102. geeo says:

      Essexmissile says:

      16 June, 2019 at 8:37 pm: “blah blah blah”

      ……….

      You and your other anti chums would love to restrict the often in depth topic knowledge and factual and educated sharing of information helpful to the indy cause, that wings is famed and respected and yes, even feared for,

      Yeah, lets stop that unless you pay to post.

      Maybe Viewers in England should be banned as well, eh ?

      Callachan the bigot would like that, but you would be screwed huh ?

      Too many snakes trying too hard, we are not blind, we know what you are up to.

      Try ask Stu his view on this ?

      Good luck with that.
      ……..

      Notice how the gender issue is never off here these days, the splitters clearly think they are onto a winner with it.

      Fooling nobody.

    103. Clootie says:

      Gerry

      Stu presents facts.
      In my view very few of the people who post on here are sheep who follow anyone’s instructions.

      I expect wingers have done their own research and formed their own views which I respect.
      However my gripe is
      a) having such a major devisive distraction at such a critical time.
      b) ignoring the valid concerns of half the population – woman.

    104. Gerry says:

      @ Capella and Brian, I’m really not disagreeing with you here, I am just pointing out what the law is. Please don’t shoot the messenger.

      @Brian, a “legal fiction” is a device created in law to extend juristiction in civil matters. A BC is one example of how that is created.

      Another would be if 2 people die in an accident and there is no way to know who dies first, and that could count in certain circumstances, so, in law the elder of the 2 is taken to have died first. Hence, another “legal fiction”.

      It’s not a freeman or sovereign thing. It’s a legislative device, and the researching of them does uncover just how unworkable self ID has the potential to be in law, IMO.

    105. Gerry says:

      Clootie – I see where you’re coming from. And Stu is masterful when it comes to indy. It’s what he is good at and why people back him.
      On other issues, not so much frankly.

    106. geeo says:

      T-Jenny@8.15pm

      Maybe Mr Cat has counted that 100,000 WBB’s as the number since the £1 = 4 books post ?

      £25k = 100,000 WBB’s seems to match the fundraiser jump ?

      Stu did however, state that these 4 for £1 would be EXTRA books, over and above the books already accounted for from the original fundraiser.

      If thats wrong, my bad.

    107. Bob Mack says:

      Try getting your passport without a Birth Cert!!

    108. Capella says:

      @ Gerry – feel free to call them a legislative devices if you choose. The rest of us will continue to call them Birth Certificates because, that way, we know what we’re talking about.

    109. Illy says:

      OK: So, since I’m trans, a large chunk of people here feel I should be barred from using public bathrooms.

      And some of the crap I’ve read from stu and similar talking shit about trans folk almost made me stop reading this site.

      Anyone feel like getting the near-mandatory dig about trans women being rapists and pedophiles out of the way? Because we all know you’re thinking it.

    110. CmonIndy says:

      Great total. I have contributed to the Wings crowdfunder every time. But I am left wondering if it will be for naught.
      Because comments like from Clootie at 1:13pm who is going to stop his sub to SNP, and many many others, over a poor (okk maybe very bad) potential policy decision suggest they want to weaken the only vehicle we will ever have for Independence.
      Maybe you want to have Scotland succumb to the lethal, immoral and consciouly cruel policies inflicted by Westminster in perpetuity.

    111. Bob Mack says:

      @illy,

      No. People on here are very much live and let live. However people on here are also very aware that those with a predatory disposition will utilise the law to give them greater access to those on whom they predate.

      That is quite,quite different from what you are suggesting.

    112. TJenny says:

      geeo – I’m confused, but no doubt Stu will let us know after the crowdfunder closes, as he says on cf page, ‘a million-plus copies of a new Wee Blue Book when a second referendum comes along, along with other major secret campaigning projects we’re working on.’

      It’s the ‘other major secret campaigning projects we’re working on.’, that’s got me excited.

      Led by cuddies maybe? 😉

    113. Gerry says:

      When I was discussing this on twitter. Someone pointed to this case here, it’s American, but the points re legal fictions and transgender issues apply here nonetheless.
      https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Transparent%3A+when+legal+fictions+and+judicial+imagination+make+facts+…-a0428752946
      It’s rather a long and boring read, but I think it illustrates the significance of legal fictions to the legal issues that arise.
      Again, I have no view, but I am very interested in the law surrounding it. Just look at the kind of legal mess it can create…
      “Transparent: when legal fictions and judicial imagination make facts disappear, they enforce transphobic discrimination.”

      This is indeed a can or worms.

    114. TJenny says:

      Or mibbe, ‘Led by Bawbags’. 😉

      Or even ‘Led by Nawbags’. That might be a bit too harsh, though.

    115. DerekM says:

      Gerry

      So you got blocked on twitter and then decided to bring this onto Wings so you could have a little moan looking for sympathy by crying in your wee hankie about the bad man having blocked you and how its bad for indy.

      Hmm sure i have heard that one before.

    116. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@ 8.37pm

      “Might improve the tone and root out the phoneys”

      I put that comment in the same category as Trump saying “I love the truth”. A category called bullshit.

    117. Essexexile says:

      geeo,
      Your modus operandi of suspicion, prejudice and blinkered belligerence are a constant blight on these pages.
      I made the mistake of trying to make a serious point in reply to your comment, but you’ve gone all paranoid and defensive again. Good grief you must be a tiresome individual to deal with in the real world.
      Oh, and this name calling thing which you and the other one seem to enjoy. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest but I get the impression you find it an important way to communicate. So, henceforth geeo you will be known as Shitgibbon.
      And, there’s no harm in debating ways for Wings to increase it’s income. Of course the final decision is the Rev’s. I had assumed that was a given.

    118. Capella says:

      The Oban march certainly looked impressive. I was thinking it would be a good idea to have a song sheet with a few marching songs to keep the troops spirits up. Maybe two or three Proclaimers songs?

      The Union Jack brigade, A Force For Good, are a permanent fixture. What about singing “We’re No Awa Tae Bide Awa” as we pass? The pipe band could start it off then we all keep it going like a round. They look so miserable I think a cheery supportive song would be good.

    119. geeo says:

      Bob Mack: without any Birth Certificate, sure, its difficult to get a passport, however, if you have one saying “Male” and you have transitioned to Female, its a form filling exercise just.

      https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender

      Frankly, most folk transiting would be keen to adjust their birth certificate soon as possible, i would reckon.
      ………

      No Birth Certificate is indeed tricky.

      If you are adopted, nobody can demand you produce your original birth certificate, so the adoption certificate is sufficient.

      If you are an immigrant who has become eligible, and seeking a uk passport, you still need the original Birth Certificate document you acquired your passport with, to enter the uk originally.

    120. DerekM says:

      @ TJenny

      I used to say he should use adsense for extra revenue but he was right not to, all they do is give you a headache then bump you by changing the goal posts.

      Plus you never can tell what is sneaking about behind these adds nowadays,peel away the layers and you find tories up to no good.

    121. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If one searches BBC Scotland online news one eventually finds a report on the large independence march through Oban yesterday.

      It finishes with the statement “The pro-union group “A Force for Good” said it videoed the rally and counted 1,757 people taking part.”
      So the question is who or what is “A Force for Good”?
      What official status does it have in any sense?”
      Why was its opinion allowed to be reported in a BBC news item?
      Did the BBC ask the march organisers how many people they had estimated?
      Who produced this unacceptable and completely inaccurate statement for the BBC?
      Who supervises their news output and the reliability of it?
      Can they provide any evidence that this report was checked for accuracy?

      There is considerable footage of the march and the numbers can easily be checked.
      It took around 25 minutes to pass any one point
      Did the BBC think to do so?
      They have to be pulled up on every example of distortion and bias

      I was there. 7000 is a conservative estimate.

    122. Bob Mack says:

      @Geeo,

      Birth Certificates also give paternal rights to those who are named as the father on said certificate. This allows them legal access to the child involved unless there are specific legal grounds for denial of access.

    123. schrodingers cat says:

      geeo

      tx for explaining that to jenny

      but crowd funding apart, the unionists continually outspend uss at every point.

      as for paywalls, i dont have the figures for how much cash and loss of readership this creates, but i suspect this would be a very bad idea.

      as for adverts? thiss doesnt necessarily mean pop ups, eg their is an ad/image for the sealand gazette at the top of the page, has been there for years, why couldnt this be changed for an Aldi’s logo?

      how would this distract people? spoil their enjoyment etc?

      stu posts hit comparisons between wos and eg, the guardian etc, but their are many pages on newspaper sites, here there is only one. an ad at the top of the page would definately be seen by all who come here.

      as for attracting big names? companies who come out in favour of the union usually damage their sales, ask letseatuk.com

      what if aldis advertised on here, do you think it would damage their brand in scotland? i dont think so, they advertise elsewhere in unionist press?

    124. schrodingers cat says:

      DerekM
      as long as stu retains control of the images he posts on this site, such activities by advertisers can be eleminated

    125. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      16 June, 2019 at 10:31 pm

      “”Twitter is Stu’s thing it is not Wings.””

      You will find if you look at the top of the page that the Twitter account is very much part of the Wings stable on social media.

      It is labelled: @ WingsScotland Twitter.

    126. schrodingers cat says:

      i see many comments dismisssing the idea of paywalls, good, I agree they would be a bad idea.

      but dont dismiss the idea of adverts out of hand, apart from being a potential source of income, it could also be an indirect way for people to support the yes side.

      I am reminded of the 1000s of tweets an icecream shop got in glasgow after being photographed outside dishing out free ice creams to kids on one of the AUOB marches.

    127. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @Phronesis, 10.07pm
      That’s quite interesting, but comparing ‘elites’ to indy-supporting websites is a little…apples vs oranges; it would be truer to compare the set of elites who we perceive as corrupt and effete and wish to free ourselves from, with the set of elites who we perceive as heroic and pure and pin our hopes of that freedom on. There’s not nearly enough information on who influences the latter, or on which sources they may in fact share a loyalty to with the former.
      Also, the grassroots ‘ideological convergence’ is nothing more than our particular flavour of populism (one which I have come to adore), so beware the possibility of Zaller’s observations being apt for applying to what rhetoric may have been used to push that notion to the bottom of the bucket.

    128. Lollysmum says:

      Just made my 2nd contribution to the crowdfunder. Heads up for anyone else doing same -beware the Donorbox site wasn’t allowing card details to be put in or allowing me to switch to PayPal so gave up & used Wings Donate button instead.

      Thanks Stuart for all that you do.

    129. Terry says:

      Oban. What a town. What a march. Utterly fantastic. Well worth the trip. And inspiring contributions from Brendan Ohara and Stewart Hosie. It’s coming folks.

    130. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Gerry

      A birth certificate is a legal document which accompanies you your whole life long and is legal proof should you require other legal documents, eg. passports.

      It’s not fiction as it contains facts, your parents, your name, weight at birth, where born and when.

      Have you got a willie – you’re a male. (Biological sex)
      Have you got a uterus/vagina – you’re a female. (Biological sex)

      It’s a legal record of facts.

      BTW, your “Legal fiction”

      “…a legal fiction allows a court to ignore a fact that would prevent it from exercising its jurisdiction by simply assuming that the fact is different.”

      “A legal fiction, by contrast, can be seen in laws recognizing “virgin birth”, i.e., that a child born to an unmarried mother has no genetic, biological or psychological father.”

      A court may ignore a fact, but it does not change a fact.

      Are you still a virgin…??

    131. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Essexexile @11.15

      This stuff might come in handy …

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/tiboutoo/1090505866/in/photostream/

    132. Jeff says:

      I (staggered) into my local shop yesterday evening and bagged the last Sunday National. Quipped to the lady behind the counter “hope you’re ready for independence”? Got the reply “Oh no we can’t do that”…asked her if she is looking forward to Boris Johnson as next prime minister and privatisation of the Scottish NHS and got the reply “oh there would be an outcry if they tried that…” Went home and wept into my Belgian Beer….

    133. Essexexile says:

      Gerry @12.19
      The way that reads makes the Rev sound like Colonel Walter E Kurtz!
      Have his methods become unsound!?

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      interesting day

      no other tory mp has backed ruthies choice of sadjive

      she spent the weekend campaigning down in england ????

      tory mps signed a manifesto concerning indyref2 about how we need a mandate at an election ???

      personally, with a ge potentially only weeks away, i would have hung off on that for the moment

    135. Gerry says:

      @essex
      No. He’s just unable to separate the two issues, and allows the gender thing to spill over by using blocklists on twitter for no reason to do with indy.
      Not what he took 100k to do. He has an account of his own that he could use to assert that Nicola Sturgeon will be reponsible for the r*pes and assaults that he predicts will come from those with a gender based protected characteristic.

    136. geeo says:

      Gerry, why not take your personal grievance up with Stu, and stop polluting this thread ?

      He has a Contact page where you can bump your gums all day long to the man himself, and we do not need to suffer your gum bumping ?

    137. Jeff says:

      gump your bums…?

    138. Jeff says:

      😀 sorry

    139. Gerry says:

      geoo, Do you think that Nicola Sturgeon will be directly responsible for r*pes and assaults, as Stu stated ?
      I don’t.
      Thanks for the advice though matey. 🙂

    140. Essexexile says:

      Gerry
      I won’t comment on how he spends his income but there is an almighty mess at the moment.
      The Scotgov seem to have alienated one of their most respected generals who now seems hell-bent on attacking it’s leadership. I can’t help but think this might all be tied in with the Rev’s soon to be aired AS show appearance. No SNP civil war ma bahookie! The Rev has chosen his side. I agree with him on pretty much every aspect of this daft self ID issue but NS as a rape enabler? Too far. Way too far. A retraction of that tweet would be wise.
      And then there’s the doddery old puffins on here who don’t understand the trans debate and don’t want to. Steady as she goes and all that.
      Anyway, the Rev is fast becoming The main news item in online Scottish politics which is never a good thing for a political commentator.
      I made the suggestion a few months back that he take a proper break after the stressful Dugdale case was concluded. It’s worth repeating that.

    141. Gerry says:

      @essex
      “I made the suggestion a few months back that he take a proper break after the stressful Dugdale case was concluded. It’s worth repeating that.”

      I agree 100%. I cannot fault Stu on indy and his efforts, but he’s lost it. Saying that about the FM on a public forum ?

      Think about what the common thread is in all the really big stories that have hit the news about wings.

      Tells a story of it’s own.

    142. Cubby says:

      Dr Doom@1.29am

      Dr Doom returns with more of his doom laden crap. I made a suggestion that you stick to filling up your warehouse shelves instead of filling Wings with your doom laden posts. It’s worth repeating that.

      Same old Dr Doom – we’re doomed I tell you doomed ……. doomed. Change your record Dr Doom.

    143. Cubby says:

      The number of phoney independence supporters posting on Wings is like a Geiger counter for how worried the Britnats are about independence actually happening. It’s off the scale now and making a bloody racket.

    144. Petra says:

      @ Gerry says at 12:15am …. “Stu tweets that Nicola Sturgeon will be responsible for r*pe.’

      What’s going on here? If this continues it won’t be the trans issue that will put paid to Independence, it will be tweets like that, FGS!

    145. DerekM says:

      @ Cubby

      Indeed they are Cubby mainly because they think if they can stop us they can stop indy.
      7 years they have been trying and failing lol

      For a while i think they thought they had driven the wingers away only to find out we were actually spreading our wings through the whole of the UK.

      You can tell they are panicking because they have activated certain groups inside the SNP and if anyone thinks that is a conspiracy as a 40 year Labour party activist and twice spad i can tell you it is what they do.

      Its nothing more than British nationalist divide and conquer so now they play gender division that one division that has hamstrung humans for eternity male v female.

      SNP need to stamp on this or we Wingers will stamp on it for them and when we start stamping things get smashed all around,we do have a bad habit of leaving a trail of destruction in our wake it is after all what we do best 🙂

    146. Capella says:

      @ Petra – there is a great effort going on to undermine support for Stu and for the SNP and for independence. The end of the Union is obviously nigh.
      Keep calm and carry on is the best approach IMO.

    147. Simon Curran says:

      Just found the BBC article that Dave McEwan Hill referred to earlier. It is amazing that the BBC are quoting figures from an organisation that has as one of its lead figures Alistair McConnachie. I take it that is the same Alistair McConnachie who got thrown out of UKIP for denying that any Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

    148. Gerry says:

      @petra
      Capella is correct about the undermining of the SNP.

      Here’s the tweet https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1139462270960971776

      And here’s the quote from it.
      “The additional rapes and sexual assaults which will inescapably follow are Nicola Sturgeon’s responsibility.”

      2:19am on June 14th.

    149. Capella says:

      The BBC also has an article about a far right AfD candidate failing to become mayor of an East German town. Angela Merkel’s CDU candidate won. The BBC are clearly gutted.

      The EU online news has a very different approach.

      The BBC promotes Nigel Farage, they promote Boris Johnston, they promote Ruth Davidson. So naturally AFFG is their go to outfit for indy marches.

    150. skintybroko says:

      Illy, as labelling people seems to be important can i suggest a new label for everyone – WAJTB – we’re a jock thomsons bairns and all are welcome

    151. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella, I’m sure that someone suggested singing our way to independence before – might even have been you – and I commented on my ‘wondrous’ singing ability damaging the indy aim.

      Having been to the Pete Seeger concert so many of the songs were about freedom ,protest and re -alignment that I wondered where the protesting songsters of today had gone.

      They sang Bob Dylan’s ‘times they are a changin’ and the words rang so true.

      However I think we should have a number of word perfect step we gailies and comin through the rye’s up our sleeves and maybe really learn Freedom Coma A’ Ye so that we can belt it out en masse.

    152. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just thinking that once upon a time when I voted for a party I certainly did not agree with absolutely every little piece of legislation they planned or proposed in their manifesto – that’s assuming I knew them all , not just the ones they pretended to endorse /pass.

      It strikes me that a number of folk are leaping upon a Trojan horse to proclaim they’re tearing up their membership of the SNP and all because a highly vocal minority are screaming about their rights and how everyone is obliged to accommodate them.

      The agitators online should really be ignored .

      As someone has said eyes on the prize.

    153. Capella says:

      @ Dorothy Devine – I feel the marchers could make more noise. Literally. The pipe band is great. Sometimes there are Indian style drummers (don’t know who they are). Some have whistles or rattles.
      But to sing songs people have to know the WORDS. AUOP could upload a verse or two of some suitable songs – Proclaimers and Freedom Come All Ye would be good. Something special for the AFFG miserati to cheer them up (We’re No Awa Bide Awa).
      Singing is good for you – even if you can’t sing – nobody can’t sing!

    154. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O\T

      Peter ‘Dark Money’ Duncan on Radio Shortbreid discussing Tory leadership debate at approximately 08:10hrs this morning!!

      https://theferret.scot/former-tory-mp-quits-dark-money-trust/

      Gary R fails to mention this controversy to the listener obviously.

    155. Ken500 says:

      The Tories and the Brexiteers are toast. Rotten to the core. An International joke. Farague is a crook. They will go staggering on until a GE.

      There are no recorded statistics for attacks in toilets? 10,000 accidental injuries in toilets. Should toilets be banned.

      Where’s the tweet? No on the twitter site.

      Nicola. Damned if you do damned if you don’t.

      Trans rights – Alex Salmond allegations.

      Trans rights not sticking up for feminists. Alex Salmond allegations sticking up for feminists.

      SG regulating EU Law to be compatible. Could not intervene in allegations (too late) or sack unionist appointed Deans. On the way out anyway. End of contract.

    156. Gerry says:

      Capella says:
      17 June, 2019 at 7:18 am

      @ Petra – there is a great effort going on to undermine support for Stu and for the SNP and for independence.
      —————-
      “The additional r*pes and sexual assaults which will inescapably follow are Nicola Sturgeon’s responsibility.”
      Rev Stu, on wings twitter account. 2:19am on June 14th.

      So yeah, I agree. There is a great effort going on to undermine support for Stu and for the SNP.

    157. Jock McDonnell says:

      I’m gonna chill about the trans gender id thingy until the bill gets published & then, if I’m unhappy, I’m gonna moan to my MSP about it. I’m not gonna make it a big deal on public forums & if we need to debate it, we will do so calmly & informatively.

      One thing is for sure though, all these special interest groups can only ever hope for temporary & token victories until Scotland recovers its Independence. While we remain in the union, we risk any old reactionary gammon from Downing Street stripping away Holyrood’s powers & legislation. For lasting progress, it has to be staying calm, not being diverted from the goal & keeping Eyes on the Main Prize

    158. Ottomanboi says:

      English ‘parliamentary democracy’ is no democracy. Its parliament is the mother of privilege.
      The current Tory, members only ‘beefcake contest’ is symptomatic of its fundamental historic arrogance and cultural elitism.
      Scots Republic!

    159. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , I’m singing already! The proclaimers wouldn’t want to hear me but hey!

    160. Dan says:

      @Dorothy Devine & Capella

      Re. Songs & chants for marches.

      Many have tried but trying to coordinate this in a large moving crowd is difficult. I’ve printed out song lyric sheets and had tunes playing on a bluetooth speaker as we marched but folk don’t seem willing to join in for various reasons.
      We’ve has some success on a few occasions though, and it totally transforms the vibe in the march when it happens.
      Even with the smaller number of folk traveling on the bus to the marches it was difficult to get any engagement.
      TBH I gave up as the time and effort of printing out numerous song sheets to hand to folk and having tunes saved to play when few make the effort is pretty disappointing.
      Football fans manage to unify and sing on the terraces in support of their team over a sports game, but folk cannae muster the same passion for their country…

      There’s actually loads of protest songs written and performed by modernish bands and I’ve commented before about this over on OT.
      For decades a great deal of music covering many genres is protest music. lots of people like these tunes but they obviously don’t listen to the words to understand what the tune is actually representing, let alone begin to unify against the common cause that the protests are about.

    161. Breeks says:


      Simon Curran says:
      17 June, 2019 at 7:21 am
      Just found the BBC article that Dave McEwan Hill referred to earlier. It is amazing that the BBC are quoting figures from an organisation that has as one of its lead figures Alistair McConnachie. I take it that is the same Alistair McConnachie who got thrown out of UKIP for denying that any Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

      The same Alistair McConnachie that is Dirty Jack with the megaphone who rants away to himself at YES marches.

    162. Ghillie says:

      Jock McDonnell @ 8.38 am

      Oh thankyou =)

      A sane response to a new (to the political scene) and sensitive issue.

    163. Petra says:

      @ Capella at 7:18am …… ” a great effort to undermine Stu”….

      It comes across to me that Stu is going to a great effort to undermine Nicola Sturgeon with tweets like that, Capella, plus former blogs. In turn that undermines our ability to get our Independence. This site and Wings Twitter have been taken over by this trans issue. Maybe it’s time for ALL to give it a rest and focus on those, the Unionists, who have the potential to make our lives a real misery. Focus on getting our Independence.

      Someone also informed us on here that trans people could basically enter women’s refuges unhindered which caused a stooshie on this site. Yesterday someone on Brewers programme said that was incorrect. Who to believe? Who’s duping who?

    164. Capella says:

      @ Dan @ Dorothy Devine – something like the South African women’s football team arriving at the airport in France for example?

      https://twitter.com/NutmegRadio/status/1137388890040557568

    165. Ghillie says:

      But Dan, we gotta try!

      Capella, with you =)

      I remember the Black Rights movement singing songs like We Will Overcome and He’s Got The Whole World In His Hands.

      Someone up thread suggested We’re No Awa To Bide Awa as we march past a particular point 🙂

      Song sheets would be brilliant! It would give folk confidence.

      And like the Indy Bikers Sound of Thunder it would be adopted and so enjoyed.

      The drummers and pipers are now here. The songs could be too 🙂

    166. Ottomanboi says:

      ‘LGBTQ+ rights’ and Imperialist ‘Anglosaxon Attitudes’. A strange mating.
      https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jun/17/top-gear-sprays-lgbt-pride-flag-on-cars-used-in-brunei-filming

    167. Capella says:

      @ Petra – I see Stu’s effort as saving the independence movement from a monumental blunder which will cost votes, maybe millions of votes. It’s not too late for them to stop and reflect. After June 25th it may well be.

    168. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , they were great weren’t they! I could do a hefty rhythmic swing of the hips a few times might need a bit of room!

      Judging by the concert I attended we ALL remembered words of songs stuck in the sixties.

      Dan , I haven’t heard many modern protest songs , maybe independent radio can blast them out. Whereas in the 60’s the songs were mainstream as it were and the words were easily absorbed.

    169. galamcennalath says:

      BBC using dodgy far right organisations as sources of news, re AUOB Oban. Should it surprise us?

      BritNat media moaning that the BBC Scotland channel isn’t being very successful.

      Failure is of course what they want.

      What I, and I’m sure a lot of other folks want, is for much of current BBC 1 programming to be replaced by Scottish content. I don’t want something running in parallel. I want the London based/biased news bulletins at 6pm and 10pm replaced with a Scottish view on the world. I want irrelevant shows like QT replaced too.

      BBC 1 should have become BBC Scotland with a mix of networked drama and entertainment, but news and current affairs produced in this country.

      What I believe is required is of course a BritNat’s nightmare – loss of their main instrument for exercising control and power – broadcast media.

    170. Dan says:

      @Capella

      Aye, just a wee bit of passion on display there!

      I yelled “Get in the Sea, manky shirt McConnachie” as I rode past the wee group of yoon supporters standing at the harbour edge.
      Obviously that was just one voice from inside my bike helmet, but if 7000 folk had chanted that as they went by him it would have drowned out his inane warblings, plus it has double meaning as his shirt still needs a wash!

      @Dorothy

      Have a look back through OT posts and you’ll see all sorts of protest tunes.

    171. jfngw says:

      When it comes to Scotland and the independence debate it would seem that BBC Scotland are happy to quote from a group led by someone who has been reported as a holocaust denier. They will leave no barrel unscraped to bring a negative comment regarding independence.

    172. jfngw says:

      @galamcennalath

      I’m just waiting for the BBC Scotland viewing figures being given as a reason to refuse an independence referendum. You can see the headlines ‘we gave them their own channel but they wanted the British mainstream output’. The fact the the channel is full of mostly old material (some now almost ancient) and the rest is low budget (even lower than the BBC Three rubbish they put out) will be ignored.

      The failure of BBC Scotland will be cited as a lack of desire for Scottish self-determination, it was how it was planned, not more choice but a long term plan, the same as the expanding UK Government in Scotland project.

    173. Clydebuilt says:

      This Mornings Post

      What Scotland Really Thinks About The EU

      NO to more EU laws
      NO to The Euro
      NO to EU fidheries policy
      YES to a United Kingdom

      BE A BREXIT BELIEVER
      (Please place this poster where everyone can see it)

      Here’s What Scotland Thinks
      89% fishing vital to Scotland
      49% EU harms our fishing
      45% EU wants more control of our waters

      From the EFD^2 Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy
      EFDD Group President Nigel Farage

      Glossy paper folded A3 not cheap. Delivered by the Postman.

    174. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clydebuilt @ 10:01,

      Oh Joy! I can’t wait. More lies and dodgy stats from Farage’s alternate universe and paid for by dark money.

      You would think that the recent all-yellow Scotland map from the EU vote was just a result of taking some of that stuff the Tory leadership all seem to like…

    175. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gerry says:
      17 June, 2019 at 12:19 am

      ” … This here articulates the point I was making a lot better than I could.
      https://williehmmm.wordpress.com/2019/06/16/if-you-subscribe-to-the-wings-blocklist-you-are-missing-half-the-debate/
      I suggest you take a read of it.”

      Yes Gerry it does articulate the point much better than you could. It shows it has nothing to do with the Wings over Scotland blog and is only confined to Stu’s Twitter doings.

      Please keep it there. I can only speak for myself but until I know the contents of the proposals in the bill to be brought to the Holyrood parliament, and conversely any proposed amendments by opposition parties or by SNP MSPs who may disagree with it, I don’t want involved in a stupid war of attrition between people who do not yet know what the hell the bill contains.

    176. Terry callachan says:

      To Robert peffers and Capella

      The consultation on proposed changes to the 2004 gender recognition act is complete
      but the Scottish government has not yet published its final decision

      This is what the Scottish government say in their fact sheet ,the final para of the fact sheet that Capella included in her post of 1001hrs Sunday 16th

      What are the next steps?
      We recently published the independent analysis of the consultation responses.4
      Respondents made points both in favour of and against the proposed reforms. We are carefully considering these points and will issue our response to the consultation in due course.
      We committed in the recent Programme for Government to continue work to enable us to bring forward legislation on gender recognition in the next legislative programme.5
      2Schedule 3, part 7, paragraphs 27 and 28 of the 2010 Act

    177. Scott says:

      Is this what we are in for if Hunt wins.

      Hunt had previously co-authored a book calling for the NHS “to be replaced by a new system of health provision in which people would pay money into personal health accounts, which they could then use to shop around for care from public and private providers. Those who could not afford to save enough would be funded by the state

      A lot of interesting stuff about him on Wikipedia.

    178. Capella says:

      See Fairplayforwomen article on the “Gender Recognition on Public Boards Bill” for some insight into what has been happening:

      https://fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

      There is a consultation on this bill at the moment. Everyone can visit the ScotGov site and add your comments.

      https://consult.gov.scot/equality-unit/gender-representation-on-public-boards/

    179. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gerry says: 17 June, 2019 at 12:51 am:

      ” … No. He’s just unable to separate the two issues, and allows the gender thing to spill over by using blocklists on twitter for no reason to do with indy.”

      Correct, Gerry, thing is neither can you separate the two issues. Stu’s Twitter has nothing to do with Wings.

      Please keep your Twitter fight over on Twitter and, by the way, the money donated by Wingers is for Wings – not for Twitter.

    180. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10:25,

      Fair comment, I think. (Though I’m glad to see that my previous observation about the review turns out to be correct – for which thanks Capella)

      But even if many SNP MSPs are simply keeping their heads down at the moment, one hopes that their antennae are functioning and that they are paying attention to the warnings being offered by the likes of Stu. If so, something positive may come out of this, and the worst might be some idiot Daily Comic headline “SNP split over self-ID”.

      Maybe now is a good time to write/e-mail to your MSP and help them along with their understanding of the looming potential pitfall. A large postbox on an issue can have influence.

    181. Fireproofjim says:

      Robert J Sutherland @10.38
      Quite right. Everybody should email the SNP pointing out the foolishness of getting bogged down in this irrelevance at such a critical time.
      Contact is info [at] snp [dot] org.

    182. Terry callachan says:

      To geeo and cubby remember to take your medicine and stay off the hard stuff
      I see you’re still calling half the people who comment on this British nationalists
      but you two are the best worker bees for british nationalism on wings

      Get well soon
      And in the meantime do try to behave

    183. Effijy says:

      I was horrified to see the BBC Drop their guard so blatantly
      Regarding the numbers attending the Oban March.

      We know from past history the Westminster Unionist Channel
      Will lie, distort or bury any positive information regarding Scottish Independence
      But not asking the organisers of the event for numbers and actually asking a
      Right wing fascist organisation, Force for Good, who are holocaust deniers to give
      Their version of events air time is just breath taking.

      Piss taking may more accurately describe the BBC’s actions.

      The Truth will be lost to Scotland forever if we don’t grasp this approaching opportunity
      For Independence.

    184. Terry callachan says:

      How much expertise on gender recognition is held within the minds of those contributing on this site I wonder ?
      Personally I don’t have any expertise on transgender recognition

      I believe that
      women who feel that they are more man than woman
      and
      men who feel that they are more woman than man

      Should be treated with respect ,tact , understanding
      You don’t have to understand it to respect it

      Most of the fears I’ve read on here about transgender ID and in particular
      about people choosing their gender themselves
      are fears of criminal activity by people who self identify their gender

      I don’t know enough about the subject to make a comment on that
      but I do think it would be odd
      if the Scottish government changed the law and made it easier and more likely
      that people will change their gender ID in order to commit crime

      It strikes me that somewhere in the Scottish governments consultation there will be evidence researching this very point
      That’s why I keep saying we should wait for the final report before making a critical evaluation

      Perhaps those on here who have been particularly critical already for example Capella , could provide some real evidence to show that people who self ID their gender become criminal in their activity or aim to do so because I believe there are many countries across the world that already have laws that allow people to self identify their gender ,surely those countries will have information showing if self identification of gender has led to such criminal activity.

    185. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      17 June, 2019 at 10:34 am
      @Gerry says: 17 June, 2019 at 12:51 am:

      ” … No. He’s just unable to separate the two issues, and allows the gender thing to spill over by using blocklists on twitter for no reason to do with indy.”

      Correct, Gerry, thing is neither can you separate the two issues. Stu’s Twitter has nothing to do with Wings.

      Please keep your Twitter fight over on Twitter and, by the way, the money donated by Wingers is for Wings – not for Twitter.””
      ……………..

      Mr Peffers,
      You do not seem to have noticed my earlier post – 11.47 PM- where I pointed out to you that it is Wings over Scotland Twitter account.

      It is badged as @WingsScotland and there is a link to it at the top of the page. Posts to/from the Wings account appear on this page, at least they do for me, on the right hand side of the page.

      Mr Campbell may have his own personal Twitter account but there is also a Wings over Scotland account.

    186. Terry callachan says:

      It’s not that long ago that the law in Scotland made it illegal to be gay
      Experts often said that it could be taught
      People were sacked from their job and attacked and beaten up for being gay
      In some countries around the world to this very day you will be executed if found to be gay and in a relationship with another gay person

      There are still some people around who actually believe that you can be taught to be gay
      Clearly we know now that this is not the case you can’t teach someone to be gay and you won’t become gay just by spending time with gay people but just like the current gender recognition self identification discussion there were many scare stories and unfounded comments made over the years that caused a lot of misery and harm

      Who am I to say that someone else should not be allowed to self identify their gender. . .?
      Do I really think it is for me to decide that ? NO

      Do you really think you have enough expertise to decide if people should be allowed to self identify their gender ?

    187. Gerry says:

      @Terry 11:06

      Hands up here Terry. I do not understand the issue outside of the bit of insoght I have to the legal end of it. The whole issue is one that I just don’t get on the emotional or personal level that it might impact people on.

      What I can see is that we are entering into a potential legal minefield with the whole issue, which is actually what I was pointing out.

      Writing to your MSP to raise a concern about the issue is not a bad idea at all.

      @robert peffers

      I shouldn’t be put on a list that encourages other pro indy people to block me because I pointed out a bit of law to Stu on twitter, that has NOTHING to do with indy whatsoever.

    188. kapelmeister says:

      “People need to know they can trust the political process” says Jeremy Hunt, in his statement opposing an independence plebiscite.

      The reality of this supposed trustworthy process is: (1) enforced loss of EU citizenship on Scots (2) denial of the right to choose self-government by casually concocted, on the hoof arguments (3) grabbing of Holyrood powers in blatant and extreme contravention of the Scotland Act.

      You said it Mr. Hunt. People need to know they can trust the political process.

    189. Gerry says:

      @Kapelmeister

      The Scotland Act is a double edged sword. If there was to be any dispute about areas outlined in Sch5 (which shows the things that are devolved/reserved) it would become a natter for the courts to decide.

      A quick look at the guidance notes for the SA will inform you that these matters set out in Sch5 are not set in stone, but to be judged on a case by case basis. Given the acceptance of the claim of right, I can’t see that ruling going against us.

    190. Dorothy Devine says:

      DAN , WILL DO!

    191. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dan will do!

    192. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 9.13 am

      The issue does seem to have taken over this site and the Wings Twitter account and is generating more heat than light.

      What has struck me in all of this is that there was a public consultation on this issue but I cannot recall the same level of ‘noise’ being made by these individuals/groups in publicising that consultation as they are making in damning the whole exercise before the proposal for amendingthe Act is known.

      Here is a link to a Scot gov web page which gives the background to the review and if you scroll down the page there are links to a whole series of reports/papers/progress reports associated with the review including an independent analysis of the responses to the consultation which makes for an interesting read – there is an executive summary if you dont have time for the full report.

      https://consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/

    193. DerekM says:

      lol the 1% of readers donated figure is incorrect,you have to understand the algorithms behind how sites take many donations and turn it into 1 donation to keep their data expansion to a minimal so they do not crash,servers cost money and since Wings fund raiser usually starts like a Saturn 5 rocket blasting off i would imagine the poor techs are going oh fuck oh fuck and running about in a panic as they watch their net overload screaming hit the emergency compiler before we go 404.

    194. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 17 June, 2019 at 10:38 am:

      ” … Maybe now is a good time to write/e-mail to your MSP and help them along with their understanding of the looming potential pitfall. A large postbox on an issue can have influence.”

      Ah! Yes! Would this, perhaps, be a good time to mention the many times I have commented that criticism of the FM/SG/SNP on open forums is counter productive and only aids the unionist cause?

      Not to mention it does little to influence the FM/SG/SNP but contacting those you disagree with directly will have effect as will SNP card carrying members proposing things at branch meetings to get their views, not only listened to, but recorded in the minutes and acted upon.

      Now here’s another point, I’m not just commenting that advice to those opposing this particular point of dispute but also those who are for it.

      In other words I’m not taking sides in the dispute. First of all I don’t know enough about the matter and secondly because it probably won’t affect me personally in any way.

      There are contact details for all elected to office people on parliament websites and on party websites. If not their personal contact details then through the parliament’s and their party websites. Not to mention most have constituency offices.

      They are your elected representatives, even if you did not vote for them personally, make them aware of your views.

    195. Breeks says:

      Dan says:
      17 June, 2019 at 9:42 am

      @Capella

      Aye, just a wee bit of passion on display there!

      I yelled “Get in the Sea, manky shirt McConnachie” as I rode past the wee group of yoon supporters standing at the harbour edge.
      Obviously that was just one voice from inside my bike helmet, but if 7000 folk had chanted that as they went by him it would have drowned out his inane warblings, plus it has double meaning as his shirt still needs a wash!

      @Dorothy

      Have a look back through OT posts and you’ll see all sorts of protest tunes.

      I think it would be great to have a chant peculiar to the YES marches, and something along the lines of the South African Women’s team maybe isn’t as alien to Scotland as we’d think.

      I remember a long time ago hearing a recording of Gaelic singing in a chapel somewhere in the Outer Hebrides, I forget where, but the single voice leading then the choir responding was for all the world similar to many African tribal chants. It was very hard to believe this was indigenous Scotland sounding absolutely terrific.

      Maybe we should call upon our Gaels to sponsor a wee war chant for the troops.

    196. Pete says:

      Just noticed that Alyn Smith MEP has issued a grovelling apology to Richard Tice of TBP over his ludicrous allegations which were completely unsubstantiated.
      Not a good look for the independence movement.
      What do these idiots think they are doing?

    197. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      “An incoming Scottish Labour Gov would make”….Aye right! 🙂

      Polling about 8%-ish probably just make it into the Edinburgh fringe this year with a bit of luck.

      PS:
      Kaye asks if Rory the Tory has hit the nail on the head with his
      compulsory ‘National Service’ plan.

      Hut 29 (for older viewers) 🙂

    198. cassandra says:

      The current division on Wings is down to every single one of you who has sought to dominate the tone and content of BTL. You have policed comments, imposed your views on dissenting voices and not allowed any criticism of the SNP or leadership because you personally favour a ‘shoosh for Indy’ approach.

      You have taken it upon yourselves to comment with sinister and downright creepy comments of what are people’s motives and personal beliefs. When it is reflected back, you retaliate with paranoid nonsense.

      Even now, when it is pointed out to how important the issue of Gender self ID is in relation to the SNP vote and them potentially losing a working majority in Holyrood you still perpetuate the idea this is a red herring instigated by Yoons.

      Wings’ Twitter has more colourful language but it is still the same person and the views on Twitter reflect their beliefs. To try to separate the two is ridiculous and just shows the bunker mentality of some here. You have sought to take ownership of this blog by denying Wings’ his own voice!

      I have said it many times but this is not ‘your’ blog Peffers, geeo, cubby , Petra etc and you have no right to set the tone or prevailing view of what is said here either by Rev Stu or anyone else who comments. That is entirely up to the Rev.

      And @geeo from now on whenever you indulge in your menacing stalkerish behaviour you will be reported and I would encourage anyone else who has been the focus of this BTL thug to do the same.

    199. Cubby says:

      Certain posters still trying to keep the trans/self ID row going on Wings. The old Britnat divide and conquer. I suppose it gives people like Callachan something else other than trying to paint Independence supporters as English hating bigots.

    200. raineach says:

      Just to get back to Independence [cries of ‘yawn’ from all around], I see that Jeremy Cnut says there should be no ‘Wildcat’ referendum. What a wonderful contribution for merchandisers! I expect to be able to buy my Wildcat tee-shirt, badge and umbrella at the next AUOB rally

    201. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fireproofjim says: 17 June, 2019 at 10:43 am:

      ” … Quite right. Everybody should email the SNP pointing out the foolishness of getting bogged down in this irrelevance at such a critical time.”

      Contact is info [at] snp [dot] org

      Further to that point – it calls into question the real motives of those who post such comments criticising the FM/SG/SNP on open forums, and that question is, ‘Who is it they aim their comments at when posting such criticism on open forums’? Is it the readers on the forum or is it the person/organisation they are criticising?

      A good proportion of the readers of the forum will read the criticism – the person/organisation being criticised probably will not. So who is it they aim to influence?

    202. call me dave says:

      From WoS twitter for those not indulging at the moment.

      Good read.
      ————————————————————–
      For Conservative Leavers, the 312-year-old Union between England and Scotland is secondary to the need to leave the EU at all costs.

      http://archive.is/S1ZQB

    203. Jack Murphy says:

      OT, and on a lighter note here’s a 9 minute film of the Yes Bikers last Saturday.

      The Yes Bikers Thunder through Glencoe to the All Under One Banner [AUOB ] Oban March & Rally.

      Here’s their YouTube video accessed via the Yesbikers.scot portal.
      Also some drone footage.
      https://tinyurl.com/y6etvhfp

      ENJOY.

    204. ewen says:

      I have read every post from way back but hardly comment any more. I also donate each year. Most importantly I use the information Stu gives us.
      I do not want a pay wall. It would be playing into the hands of those that wish to restrict and control information.

    205. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 12:10,

      Yes, it’s quite a change in tone. From anti-English ranting to ultra-prog. advocacy. And none of it helpful. Curious, certainly.

    206. Cubby says:

      Cassandra@12.05am

      Your post is offensive. So complaining about other people’s posts is hypocritical.

      Want to prove your offensive points specifically regarding my posts that you lumped me in with. If not then you are just another person posting crap.

      For example, Where have I said that Wings is my blog. Where and when do I deny Wings it’s own voice. Where have I said it is a red herring instigated by yoons. Prove your points relating to me or apologise.

    207. Ali says:

      Happily contributed last year but you refuse to stay out of gender politics so I’m afraid I can’t. I’m not giving you money to do that, whether I agree with you or not. Apart from anything else it puts everything else you do (the important stuff) at risk.

    208. kapelmeister says:

      If the Tories wish to depict us as wildcats then we can, with justice on our side, depict them as thieving magpies.

      Wildcats versus magpies.

      Which group is likely to prevail?

    209. Papko says:

      Cassandra :12.05
      A portentous post, as befits your name.

      You do raise a point though, can a blog with 300k viewers, have such a mono-culture in the comments section?

      I very seldom post on here (though I always read the blog), for the exact same reason as you it seems.

      Any comment that remotely diverges from the consensus of the “Owsla”, gets you set upon.

    210. Cubby says:

      Callachan@10.46am

      An offensive post. Perhaps Cassandra will criticise this post. Perhaps not.

      Another lie from Callachan – I do not call 50% of the posters on Wings Britnats. No point in asking you to back up your assertions with facts/ sources as I have done this previously and what do I get from Callachan – nothing.

      Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything. If you do not want me to see you as a Britnat Terry old boy try making a start by stop lying.

    211. Papko says:

      “Wildcats versus magpies.
      Which group is likely to prevail?”

      Well not sure if this was your intention, but Wildcats are facing extinction and those that remain are hybrids of feral cats.

      Whereas Magpies, seem to be increasing their territory.

      Who are Seagulls though? they have adapted superbly well these last few decades, when they changed their eating habits from fish to kebabs.

    212. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cassandra @ 12:05,

      Do you keep the same “bitter-and-twisted” rant in reserve and simply regurgitate it on each new thread?

      Personally, I would be far more inclined to take you seriously on this issue if you were contributing in other more positive ways as well. But no, your contributions are monotone, stale and becoming increasingly wearisome.

      If you have any actual ideas, can you share them please? Otherwise you are just going to be increasingly ignored as a wrecker.

    213. kapelmeister says:

      Papko @ 12:49

      Not sure if it was your intention, but Scottish democracy is facing extinction.

    214. exile says:

      Jack Murphy @ 12.31. Thanks for posting the video of the Yes Bikers. It was good to see the bike with the English and Scottish flags, and English Scots for Yes in Oban – so important for the Yes movement. A great wee film!

    215. mike cassidy says:

      Of course women(with vaginas)have nothing to fear when their safe spaces are turned in to neutral areas.

      Nothing at all.

      http://archive.is/7bl2C

      https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3611433-Another-perv-in-mixed-sex-changing-village

    216. Dan says:

      Papko says: at 12:49 pm

      Wildcats are facing extinction and those that remain are hybrids of feral cats.

      Think it was Netflix that had the programme “Tigers of Scotland” which gave an interesting account on the subject. Worth a watch if folk can access it. IIRC land ownership and estate management / gamekeeping behaviour over the years has played a significant part in the wildcats demise with many being culled.
      Used to have a neighbour that worked in wildcat conservation. She had a tiny wildcat kitten home one night to look after. I’m an animal lover, but jeez, that thing was wild and boy could it scratch.

      @exile at 1:08 pm

      There were two or three Yes Bikers with English and YES flags on their bikes. I rode behind one for one of the sections.
      It really was an amazing feeling as we all climbed up the hill in a long convoy from the Green Welly to Glencoe. I posted before Saturday that this had the potential to be an epic day. It did not disappoint, and bar a few minute shower at the end of the march, it was a miracle we didn’t get caught in any significant rain on the 250 mile journey there and back.

    217. Hamish100 says:

      cassandra says:
      17 June, 2019 at 12:05 pm
      The current division on Wings is down to every single one of you who has sought to dominate the tone and content of BTL

      Never finger point said my granny you will find 3 fingers point back at you-lol sorry btl sorry gtf

    218. Doug says:

      @Legerwood 11.43am

      Thank you for that link.

      Independence, first and foremost.

    219. kapelmeister says:

      A couple of weeks and the All-England tennis championships will be along to help folks waste more time before October 31st. The BBC can wallow in more nostalgia and oh so British strawberries and cream.

      Maybe the rain will have subsided and there’ll be some warm weather to go with the tennis. Everyone will be reaching for the lemon barley……..well, not we hope Michael Gove.

    220. cassandra says:

      The idea that we should not discuss anything because we are not in full possession of the facts is ludicrous.

      Why are we allowed to discuss Brexit? Are we allowed to discuss currency options, S30 refusal, prorogation of Parliament, Boris Johnston as PM?

      FFS, are we allowed to discuss Independence beyond the pet subjects of the hallowed few?

      The shutting down of dissenting voices just makes people shout louder.The self appointed police BTL are ignorant of the implications of Self ID so they don’t want to talk about it and keep trying to divert things back to their pet topics where they can be in control.

      Funnily enough it is a microcosm of what is going on in the SNP. So are those who would keep us quiet, SNP messengers sent to diminish Wings? We know they read the blog and are shit scared of Wings so have they had a metaphorical boot on the throat BTL to keep Wingers on message?

    221. Dorothy Devine says:

      Jack Murphy , thanks for that ,looks like a good run.

    222. James Barr Gardner says:

      reeks says:
      17 June, 2019 at 12:00 pm

      Maybe we should call upon our Gaels to sponsor a wee war chant for the troops.

      Check out Icelanders doing Viking War Chant !

    223. Giving Goose says:

      The recent debate within a debate regarding gender equality etc has highlighted, for me, the fact that the Scottish Government still has to actually govern.

      They are between a rock and a hard place navigating a difficult course between the goal of Independence and other daily topics and they will not keep every member of the public happy. Including me.

      That’s what becomes of taking the responsibility of government. I respect that.

      I also have my own mini anxieties about certain subjects that are the daily bread and butter of any government.

      In my case it is care for the elderly and others who require it, where the model, particularly that around care at home, appears to be fundamentally broken.
      It is an aspiration that is not achievable and is out of reach in Scotland.

      It’s a massive subject, requiring a large amount of rethinking, including a probable remodelling of society – and great honesty.

      Getting older or requiring care is something that comes to us all and it definitely requires us all to be involved in thinking and talking about it.

      Compared to the gender issue IMHO it is well up and ahead in the table of priorities.

      What does that mean for my view of the government?
      They have got their priorities very wrong.

      I’m angry about it, however……and this is the point – it will not detract from my belief and support for an Independent Scotland.

    224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cassandra @ 13:52,

      Why don’t you effing discuss whatever then, instead of just miserably moaning that supposedly you can’t? Duh.

      =rapidly losing patience=

    225. galamcennalath says:

      Farage’s bullshit propaganda with the post today.

      Does anyone know what I actually costs to have a leaflet delivered to every home in Scotland?

    226. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @galamcennalath –

      I got the same bumph.

      Someone told me recently that posties get piece rates for delivering that kind of thing, be it political stuff, restaurant menus, whatever.

      Anyone able to confirm that?

    227. manandboy says:

      THE SNP MANDATE IS SO MUCH BIGGER THAN THE TORY MANDATE.

      If you think the UK is a Democracy, then these figures below disprove the Tory claim that the SNP don’t have a mandate. The thing is, the Tories think of democracy as just window dressing. Democracy won’t build you an Empire. In Tory world, Democracy is principally about the lie that the people have a say in how things are run.

      The Tory Party, which governs the UK with with just 36.9% of the vote, is INSISTING that the SNP, with 46.5% of the vote, doesn’t have a mandate. ?

    228. Maolbeatha says:

      Songs passing manky shirt?

      Sound off count!
      LOL Each person shouts out their number as they pass.
      (Not in a creepy 1984 way)

      Thinking dirty dozen style.
      No hang on that would AUOB, dirty dozen or so.

      JOKE! too hard to organise that, for little benefit!

      Anybody ever drone filmed any of the marches?
      That would look smart.

    229. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      17 June, 2019 at 12:16 pm

      @Fireproofjim says: 17 June, 2019 at 10:43 am:

      ….Further to that point – it calls into question the real motives of those who post such comments criticising the FM/SG/SNP on open forums, and that question is, ‘Who is it they aim their comments at when posting such criticism on open forums’? Is it the readers on the forum or is it the person/organisation they are criticising?

      A good proportion of the readers of the forum will read the criticism – the person/organisation being criticised probably will not. So who is it they aim to influence?

      Does it???

      See, from my perspective, if you see something about SNP strategy you don’t like, if you say nothing, it will be taken as passive acquiescence.
      And raising “issues” with the SNP, from my personal experience, is quite simply an absolute waste of your time. You can say that’s untrue until the cows come home. I speak as I find.

      I also don’t comment aiming to infuence anybodies opinion, merely to express my own, or put forward a constructive suggestion for debate, although the quality of any actual debate and discussion is much lower and an more acrimonious since the heady days of 2014.

      To be honest, I don’t believe criticism of the SNP has ever been more important than it is now, because objectively, I despair at the lack of progress we have achieved since losing in 2014.

      We lost, yes, albeit by cheating, but we had such camaraderie and momentum that Scotland felt it would be virtually ungovernable until we won big important concessions, if not full independence.

      Our tails were up, the SNP membership was going through the roof, and then 53 out of 56 Scottish MP’S were SNP. Yes, we had lost, but then out of left field came Brexit, and yet again, Scotland delivered a Constitutional stand-off which Westminster could not accommodate.

      And then, for reasons I cannot bear to dwell upon, we blew it. We holed our own Constitutionally sovereign Remain vote below the waterline by our insipid but unforced voluntary compromise of a Soft Brexit option which Scotland would accept. The rug was pulled from under our feet, and to add insult to injury, Nicola also forfeited the initiative indefinitely by her “Wait and see the details before we decide”. At a stroke, all the initiative was past to Theresa May, who delighted in making the final details of Brexit a complete and utter buarach.

      Outside of the SNP inner sanctum, the whole YES movement has been left in the dark and running on idle; some engines stalling, some overheating, some blowing up altogether. And still, even now, we get nothing. Even SNP support for the AUOB marches seems inexcusably lukewarm.

      I’ll be frank with you. I don’t give a fk about a referendum in 2020 or beyond. Scotland get Brexited in October 2019, and that’s my D-day… the day Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty stands or falls. We defy Brexit and defend our Nation’s interests and constitutional integrity.

      If the SNP needs dragged by the nose just to turn up, they will never see another vote from me, no matter how liberal and caring their domestic manifesto appears.

    230. Capella says:

      We’r no awa tae bide awa – Andy Stewart version – with lyrics:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIA1i0pBtw

    231. Cubby says:

      The Tory leader candidates are just confirming to everyone that the UK Union is now officially a prison for Scotland. Who would have thought it.

      Westminster, the mother of parliaments, the standard bearer for democracy – what a sick joke and just more Britnat lies.

      The candidates are not just Bastards but prison governors as well.

      Westminster = colonial oppressors.

    232. galamcennalath says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Royal Mail site …

      “And with our free targeting and planning service, you can find the right people and postcodes to reach – just a minimum spend of £500* could let you reach 8,000 potential new customers.”

      And elsewhere I’ve seen prices of 6-7p which is consistent and no doubt depends on quantity. Typically A4 in size.

      There are about 2.5million households in Scotland. £150k, maybe less given the size of order. Farage throwing a lot of money trying to make Scots pro leave.

    233. Phronesis says:

      “The greatness of a nation can be judged by how it treats its weakest member” Mahatma Gandhi.

      ‘The number of children using Sure Start children’s centres in the most deprived areas of England has fallen by more than a fifth, driven by austerity cuts, new research has found…

      In the poorest areas, there has been a 22 per cent fall compared to 12 per cent among the most affluent…Among the evidence in support of the centres is a report from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which found that they help close the gap in child hospital admission rates between the poorest and richest areas’

      https://www.cypnow.co.uk/cyp/news/2006804/use-of-childrens-centres-falls-by-a-fifth-in-most-deprived-areas?

      ‘Child poverty in the UK is a  growing problem and affects more than 4 million children. Poverty harms children’s health and damages their futures. It also damages our society as a whole…
      A couple with two children living in poverty has less than £58 per day – that’s £15 each – after housing costs to pay for food, bills, childcare, transport, household items, clothes and other expenses like school trips or children’s activities.
      The same family on average income in the UK has about £96 per day – that’s £24 each – to cover these things’

      https://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/what-we-do/our-work/ending-child-poverty/what-is-child-poverty

      ‘According to the Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), the UK has licensed almost £5 billion worth of arms to Saudi Arabia since the Yemen war began in March 2015.
      From 2008 it is estimated that the UK arms deal to Saudi is £10 billion’

      https://inews.co.uk/

    234. galamcennalath says:

      A thought. Will Farage’s Scottish targeting leaflet do more harm (to his cause) than good?

      I found it pretty offensive, I wonder how soft NO Remainers viewed it?

    235. Clootie says:

      …just got my four page Farage guide to what Scotland wants. He makes Ruthie seem honest!

    236. Robert Peffers says:

      @cassandra says:17 June, 2019 at 12:05 pm:

      … The current division on Wings is down to every single one of you who has sought to dominate the tone and content of BTL.”

      Absolute cobblers, Cassandra, and you know it, thing is so do we. No one, least of all me, has ever said not to have different views from the official views of either the SG or SNP, and you know it – and so do we.

      It is very clearly explained on this thread anyone, like you, who posts comments against the SG or SNP on an open forum has the main objective of convincing the readers of Wings and thus can make little or no impression in changing the SG or SNP policy for the comments on Wings are aimed directly at Wings readers.

      Quite obviously, as has been commented so many times, if you aim to get your message to the SG or SNP then you send it to the SG or SNP directly and they must pay attention if they are inundated with such messages.

      It isn’t rocket science is it?

      You send your message to the person(s), concerned if you wish to convince them they are wrong.

      So send your concerns to the SG/SNP for them to, “Get the Message”, but send your concerns to the many readers of Wings if you want them to be convinced the SG/SNP are wrong.

      So, tell me Cassandra, who is it you are sending your messages to? Then tell me if I have ever said that people should not hold different views from either the SG or SNP?

      Heaven knows I’ve done so many, many times over many, many years. I’ve stood up and differed with UK Ministers of Defence, UK Chancellors, Prime Ministers, MPs, MSPs, MEPs. Leaders of every major UK Political party and many councillors.

      One thing I don’t do is do so about them when they are not present UNLESS I WANT TO CONVINCE THE GENERAL PUBLIC OF THOSE ATTENDING MEETINGS WHO ARE FROM OPPOSING PARTIES.

      Which is exactly what those who do so here on Wings when they complain about the FM/SG or SNP are doing their intended target is wingers – not the FM, SG or SNP.

    237. Nana says:

      Tried to post a few links this morning before heading for an early appointment. They did not appear and I’ve tried again just now and got this

      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

      I can’t see any banned words so there is no point posting any more.

    238. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 17 June, 2019 at 12:10 pm:

      ” … Certain posters still trying to keep the trans/self ID row going on Wings. The old Britnat divide and conquer. I suppose it gives people like Callachan something else other than trying to paint Independence supporters as English hating bigots.”

      Think about this, Cubby, anyone really concerned about something they disagree with what the Holyrood SNP contingent are doing, (or as in this case, think they are going to do), can sit down at their keyboard, or even their mobile phone, carefully word a letter explaining why they think it is a bad thing that the SG is doing, then address it to the FM as the main recipient and fill in every other SNP MSP’s email address in the other address box and with one click of a button email every single SNP MSP with that one button/key press.

      Now the question is what will have the most chance of changing SG/MSP minds – an email to every one of them or a comment on Wings?

    239. Juteman says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I don’t post much these days, but enjoy reading most of your historical info.
      You need to calm down on the insulting stuff though. It might put off newcomers to the blog.
      Don’t take this as me telling you to stop what you do. 🙂

    240. ahundredthidiot says:

      For sure folks need to be on their toes. ‘We’ have a 100% failure rate (so far) in returning Scotland to Her people. That is just a 300 year old fact.

      Anyone underestimating the UK Crown and Her tactics best wake the F up. They will do whatever it takes to rule and dominate Scotland, and quite frankly, (and quite rightly) we wont – because we’re better than them – morally.

      So we need to box clever and stay on theme.

      Independence. Independence. Independence.

    241. kapelmeister says:

      So essentially all the Tory candidates enthusiastically want to strip Scotland of power and rights and the means of re-establishing power and rights.

      The only difference being Rory Stewart, who, although he would also do the above, would feel some angst over it.

    242. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ali says: 17 June, 2019 at 12:42 pm:

      ” … Happily contributed last year but you refuse to stay out of gender politics so I’m afraid I can’t. I’m not giving you money to do that, whether I agree with you or not. Apart from anything else it puts everything else you do (the important stuff) at risk.”

      Wings is not Twitter. I have no knowledge of what Stu does on Twitter. unless of course someone, like you, fetches Twitter stuff onto Wings.

      Second of all the SG/SNP hasn’t even brought the bill about their proposed changes into the Holyrood Parliament so no one officially knows what it contains. It can only be some form of leak. Thirdly even if they bring a bill into the Parliament it is just that, a bill. It needs debated, it may have any party or MSP at Holyrood, that can get a seconder, propose amendments and last of all the bill may fail to pass and become an Act of Parliament.

      So just what are your motives for bringing this bitter and threatening premature battle here to Wings?

      I say again Wings is not Twitter – keep your fight where it belongs – on Twitted. I’m strictly neutral on this matter as I won’t find out more about it until it OFFICIALLY becomes a bill in the Holyrood Parliament but if you imagine you are doing other than turning neutral people against the whole bitter battle then you are stupid. Keep it out of Wings.

    243. Robert Peffers says:

      @mike cassidy says:17 June, 2019 at 1:13 pm:

      ” … Of course women(with vaginas)have nothing to fear when their safe spaces are turned in to neutral areas.”

      What has that all got to do with the gender issue, Mike?

      The articles say nothing about the guy claiming he was a she?

      No doubt he was a perverted male but the case, unless I’m reading it wrongly, has nothing to do with what all the premature crazy fighting is about.

      In any case the topic belongs where it started and is going on – on Twitter. So far I’ve avoided Twitter like the plague. I’d like to keep it that way.

      I have every sympathy if indeed women are going to lose much needed protection but, as yet, the bill has not yet made it to Holyrood and may, or may not ever get there and if it does and is going to adversely affect woman’s rights will be the time to kick up hell and I’ll be doing that. For now can we keep it out of Wings until it actually becomes a political matter.

      You see my problem is that leaked information is usually deliberately leaked in order to cause problems – not to avoid them.

    244. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “They did not appear and I’ve tried again just now”

      Seriously, how many THOUSANDS OF FUCKING TIMES do I have to tell people not to repeat-post? If it gets held up in the filters for whatever reason, I’ll deal with it when I see it. Comments don’t just vanish. They go in a queue that I check manually whenever I have the time. Sometimes that can be a while.

    245. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Oh, and while I’m here – these comments are not a forum for people whining about being blocked on Twitter. If you want to complain about that and argue for the block being lifted, use the Contact form. I nearly always unblock if there’s just been a misunderstanding.

      And if you don’t want to get blocked in the first place, don’t be an arsehole. And maybe ponder just how much patience YOU’d have with people being snotty pricks on Twitter if you got even a hundredth of the abuse that I get there every day.

      Finally, people who don’t want to donate because of my personal views on X, Y or Z: absolutely nobody’s making you. I’m not going to change my opinion to get your money – imagine if I did! – so we don’t need a whole long gripe about it.

    246. Robert Peffers says:

      @cassandra says: 17 June, 2019 at 1:52 pm:

      ” … The idea that we should not discuss anything because we are not in full possession of the facts is ludicrous.”

      Aye! So are you ludicrous. As we say in Scotland, “awa an bile yer heid.

      Wings is, as it says at the top right corner, “Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary.”

      What it isn’t is an extension of Twitter to fight premature bitter battles before the true political facts are even published.

    247. Dan says:

      Robert Peffers says: at 3:51 pm

      Now the question is what will have the most chance of changing SG/MSP minds – an email to every one of them or a comment on Wings?

      As you’ve asked a question I’ll respond.
      Wings has a large readership and thus any comment made here may initiate discussion and responses that help identify the general thoughts of a wider pool of people on a particular subject. That being the case it helps engage, enlighten, and inform people in more ways than they will by watching MSM.
      If it kicks off as this Self ID matter has then any switched on SPADS and Politicians reading in might be wise to consider noting the scale of reaction to it, and as they require votes, there’s the possibility a comment here actually has more influence than an email from one solitary individual.

      If open discussions on specific subjects are to be shut down, we restrict both our individual and collective development of comprehension on those matters, and that is negative thing.

    248. Nana says:

      I did not repeat the original post, I swapped a couple in order to see if I had done something wrong the first time.

      Rest assured I will not post again.

    249. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I did not repeat the original post, I swapped a couple in order to see if I had done something wrong the first time.”

      How did you imagine changing the order of the words was going to alter whether they triggered the filter or not? Are you honestly telling me you haven’t seen ANY of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times I’ve explained how the filtering and moderation works and told folk just to be patient, and now you’re in a sulk?

    250. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 16:46,

      I share your evident frustration that this issue has leaked over from WoS Twitter to here, but the mere fact that it is being discussed is a sign that it is a live issue, like it or not.

      Furthermore, it could well be that any “leak” has the same purpose as Stu’s championing of the subject, to cause a problem now, yes, but with the specific intention of avoiding a much bigger and very public falling-out at just the wrong time for the Big Move.

      We need everybody on board for that, which means we can’t afford to have any nasty surprises springing up to hit support then. We only need a small change in allegiance to prevail, but equally a small loss would be hyper-critical.

    251. Nana says:

      I swapped a couple from another lot of four I had to post later, so not from the original post.

      Anyway I don’t sulk, but I do hurt. My reposting of articles has not happened in a long time as I tried to avoid but lately I have had a lot of trouble linking and switched computers in the hope the problem was fixed.

      I’ve supported this crowdfunder as I have done all your crowdfunders and likely will continue to do so as well as plugging the blog to all I meet.

      But now I’m done.

    252. Robert Peffers says:

      @Juteman says: 17 June, 2019 at 4:03 pm:

      ” … You need to calm down on the insulting stuff though. “

      Calm down, Juteman? If I calm down any more I’ll be asleep.
      ;-))

      Seriously, I think I just may get more insults than I dish out but it takes a great deal of anything to get me upset.

    253. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 17 June, 2019 at 4:57 pm:

      ” … Oh, and while I’m here – these comments are not a forum for people whining about being blocked on Twitter.”

      Thank you, Stu, I’ve been saying that for a while now. Twitter blocking has nothing to do with Wings and neither has the bitter battling going on over there. We have enough of our own fall outs over here on Wings.

    254. Capella says:

      Hi Nana – please keep on posting your links – they’re a valuable contribution to this blog. I can see that Stu is somewhat tetchy today. He’s not the only one. Must be something in the water.

    255. Mike cassidy says:

      Robert Proffers 4.46

      It’s got everything to do with the gender issue.

      In this example the move to ‘neutral’ toilets is part of the accomodation of the trans idea that women with vaginas are not entitled to penis-free safe areas.

      And one of the problems with that

      And just one

      Is that it creates opportunities for non-trans pervs and predators to legally be where they couldn’t before.

      Click on the other story on the Mumsnet page.

      That guy was filming women for fecks sake.

    256. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dan says: 17 June, 2019 at 5:05 pm:

      ” … If it kicks off as this Self ID matter has then any switched on SPADS and Politicians reading in might be wise to consider noting the scale of reaction to it, and as they require votes, there’s the possibility a comment here actually has more influence than an email from one solitary individual”.

      Of course it doesn’t, You don’t need to be brain of Britain to get this point. There are two address boxes on email clients. The first is the main recipient and the second is for, “copies to”.

      So here’s the way it is done. You keep lists of email addresses, for example every SNP MSP’s email address, every Labour MSP’s email address and so on.

      If you have an issue with the SNP you compose an email to the FM and the first email address is her email address. Then you cut and paste your list of every other SNP MSP into the, “copies to”, address box and that sends every SNP MSP a copy of your email. Now here’s the what if, “what if every concerned Wings reader were to send out such a multi-address email”?

      Every SNP MSP would instantly have a very full email box and there would be absolutely no doubt the SNP would sit up and take notice. They would be in no doubt that public opinion was either pleased or displeased depending on the issues involved.

      Now I’d hoped not to need to post that for it works just as well for those who would want to convince the SNP of their views. I had hoped Wingers were bright enough to have worked it out for themselves.

      Got it now, Dan? It is absolutely no problem to send out identical emails on the subject of your choice to any group such as political parties. The only bother is compiling your wee lists of people in the first place and unlike snail mail the cost is very, very small.

      Hadn’t you realised I was a devious auld Winger by this time, Dan?

    257. Dan says:

      @Robert Peffers at 6:01 pm

      I know how to email Bob.
      But if you actually read what I said…

      …there’s the possibility a comment here actually has more influence than an email from one solitary individual”.

      I state from, not to…

    258. cassandra says:

      The SNP hierarchy could have worked together with WoS. With their resources and reach just think of how much further the WBB could have gone. Instead they distanced themselves and their purity police took every opportunity to clutch their pearls and disavow him.

      Their henchmen, therefore, they have no right to try to control the narrative above the line, below the line or on his Twitter account.

      The SNP zealots who see this site as their proxy SNP chat room and propaganda site have never understand that. Indy is about so much more than the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon.

      Maybe it is becoming clear now.

    259. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike cassidy says:17 June, 2019 at 5:36 pm:

      ” … It’s got everything to do with the gender issue.
      In this example the move to ‘neutral’ toilets is part of the accomodation of the trans idea that women with vaginas are not entitled to penis-free safe areas.”

      Absolute rubbish! There has been examples of, what you call, “Neutral Toilets”, for many, many decades and nothing about them was anything to do with self proclaimed gender issues.”

      Nothing in the reports even suggests the pervert was other than a pervert. Nasty yes, but nothing to do with the current gender issues.

      ” … Is that it creates opportunities for non-trans pervs and predators to legally be where they couldn’t before.”

      Except for the fact that some such, “Neutral”, facilities have existed for a very long time indeed. I could be wrong but my memory is those particular toilets in the Dunfermline Carnegie Institute were neutral long ago and it is very long ago since I last was in the Carnegie Institute, (but I’m ready to be proven wrong).

      If you want another example that I can prove. How about Disabled Person’s Toilets? These have used the, “RADAR”, system and they have all been neutral for many decades. Neutral Toilets is a completely different matter the only space where both sexes mingle is out with the actual toilets which are lockable and the report you posted says the lady was indeed behind a locked door.

      It helps no one attempting to exaggerate the problem – a problem that is potentially bad enough as it is.
      ” … Click on the other story on the Mumsnet page.”

      Don’t make matters worse, I did read both articles, what makes you believe I had not?

      The point is the guy was a perverted voyeur but was not a transgender person and thus you are attempting to confuse the issue.

      “… That guy was filming women for fecks sake.”

      Indeed but he was/is not a transgender person and that is the point. There has been voyeurs about for forever but that has nothing to do with transgender issues.

    260. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dan says: 17 June, 2019 at 6:15 pm:

      ” … I know how to email Bob.”

      Did I say you didn’t?

      ” … But if you actually read what I said…”

      Whatever makes you think I had not?

      ” …there’s the possibility a comment here actually has more influence than an email from one solitary individual”.”

      Aye! And there is a greater possibility that it won’t even be read by anyone that matters. First of all we do not know if anyone that matters even reads Wings but if they get emailed we know they will. What’s more, though, if every SNP MSP and/or MP gets emailed we can be fairly sure it will be noticed and if every Winger emails every MSP it most certainly will be not only noticed but will be discussed by at least some of them.

      Read my other post on how to very simply make certain that every MSP gets emailed and if more than one Winger does so they all get emailed more than once.

      Also, BTW, there is no benefit to the unionist causes by emailing SNP MSPs.

    261. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – you are missing the point Robert. Neutral toilets and changing rooms have not been around for decades. I have never used one or seen one in any public building, leisure centre or swimming pool.
      A small shop or restaurant may have only one toilet but in that case each customer is in there by themselves.

      If you create a situation where men can access women’s safe spaces then you have to accept that the incidence of voyeurism, sexual assault and rape will increase. It has already happened.

      Also, women will refuse to use these facilities and so lose access to many public services. This has already happened.

      I have posted several links to papers outlining changes that have already taken place in Scotland. Read the advice to teachers in schools, changes in the prison service, the NHS, groups which assist women fleeing violence.

      I linked to the consultation on the Gender Representation on Public Boards Scotland Act, which has already passed into law.

      I posted links to the Committee evidence sessions and Holyrood stage 3 debate on the Census 2021 Bill. This is currently passing into law. I hope the defects of the 2011 Census will be corrected. Without public pressure and support for Joan McAlpine’s heroic defence of the sex based rights of women that won’t happen.

      We are not talking about some hypothetical Bill which might be presented in the future. The review of the Gender recognition Act 2004 has already happened. I posted links to the report and supporting papers, including the paper spelling out the Scottish government’s intention to legislate in favour of Self ID.

      I agree that people should write to their MSPs and SNP Branch, if they are members, to register concern. I have already done so and I hope many others do the same NOW THAT THEY ARE AWARE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.

    262. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – you are missing the point Robert. Neutral toilets and changing rooms have not been around for decades. I have never used one or seen one in any public building, leisure centre or swimming pool.
      A small shop or restaurant may have only one toilet but in that case each customer is in there by themselves.

      If you create a situation where men can access women’s safe spaces then you have to accept that the incidence of voyeurism, sexual assault and r**e will increase. It has already happened.

      Also, women will refuse to use these facilities and so lose access to many public services. This has already happened.

      I have posted several links to papers outlining changes that have already taken place in Scotland. Read the advice to teachers in schools, changes in the prison service, the NHS, groups which assist women fleeing violence.

      I linked to the consultation on the Gender Representation on Public Boards Scotland Act, which has already passed into law.

      I posted links to the Committee evidence sessions and Holyrood stage 3 debate on the Census 2021 Bill. This is currently passing into law. I hope the defects of the 2011 Census will be corrected. Without public pressure and support for Joan McAlpine’s heroic defence of the sex based rights of women that won’t happen.

      We are not talking about some hypothetical Bill which might be presented in the future. The review of the Gender recognition Act 2004 has already happened. I posted links to the report and supporting papers, including the paper spelling out the Scottish government’s intention to legislate in favour of Self ID.

      I agree that people should write to their MSPs and SNP Branch, if they are members, to register concern. I have already done so and I hope many others do the same NOW THAT THEY ARE AWARE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.

    263. Bill McLean says:

      This blog is destroying itself. The unionists will be pleased. Please grow up before it is too late!

    264. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi cassandra at 6:36 pm.

      I don’t agree with most of what you post here but this chimed in unison.

      “The SNP hierarchy could have worked together with WoS. With their resources and reach just think of how much further the WBB could have gone. Instead they distanced themselves and their purity police took every opportunity to clutch their pearls and disavow him.”

      I’ll refer you to the link below.

      Here is a quote from it…

      “Let me tell you a story about the SNP and Wings Over Scotland. During the Referendum Campaign in 2014 I and others ran the Yes Bus Dragon For independence Team in Dundee. A loose group of politicaly diverse supporters of independence . We campaigned hard throughout the campaign in and around Dundee.

      We were never short of volunteers and we had a very effective system which consisted of a hub of better versed activists based around the bus and people out on the streets handing our leaflets ( when we could prize them from the SNP) they would bring people over to the bus where they could speak to someone who had in depth knowledge about their particular concern.

      Now at that time the SNP had a problem (one of many) with Wings over Scotland because he had called an a**e hole, an a**e hole and they were in one of their holier than thou modes. At that time Wings brought out The Wee Blue Book.

      It was a god send to us on the streets and we did everything to get our hands on copies and it so happened one of our team, Brian Doonthetoon was a wings member and managed to get his hands on a goodly amount of them , but we just couldn’t get enough.

      Now to start with the Dundee SNP shunned this publication because of the aforesaid holier than thou attitude, although under pressure from myself and others they eventually relented and brought in stocks of them, getting them to actually give us any was another matter as was any campaigning material especially the stock that was held in the Hub in St Andrews street, it was really awful.”

      https://bobsblog.scot/2019/04/20/wings-over-a-very-pure-scotland/

      (Bob comments here occasionally.)

    265. Capella says:

      @ Bill Maclean 7.08 – do you mean “shut up” ? If you imagine that the Unionists are not already aware of these issues then you re a more trusting person than me. I’m cynical enough to think that the Unionists may have actually created this issue.

    266. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers at 6:55 pm.

      You typed,
      “Aye! And there is a greater possibility that it won’t even be read by anyone that matters. First of all we do not know if anyone that matters even reads Wings but if they get emailed we know they will.”

      In the past three or four days, I saw an ‘infographic’ on either Facebook or Twitter, which listed all the SNP MPs, MSPs and councillors, who read WOS. There were scores of them, including my own MP, Chris Law. I think he matters.

      (Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the graphic again.)

    267. Illy says:

      “If you create a situation where men can access women’s safe spaces”

      As I said earlier, no-one is suggesting this. And unless you want to deny the existence of trans people altogether, you are actually arguing *for* this.

    268. Capella says:

      @ BDTT – I saw that one too. I think it might have been circulated by Jordon, Duke of ? demanding that SNP MPs and MSPs boycott this site, which he described as a “hate site”, perhaps as a prelude to getting WordPress to close it down. Getting websites, twitter sites and public meetings shut down is another aspect of “woke” tactics.

    269. Gerry says:

      @Rev – I just didn’t want to be put on a list that loads of yessers block on your say so, i would like to be removed from it, but it’s a bit late now really tbh.

      Unblock me if you like, I’m really not fussed. It’s the list that is objectionable. Amongst other things.

    270. Bill McLean says:

      Capella – I hope very much you do not think I mean “shut up”. I’m cynical too but why help them in their aims to destroy the independence movement. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but some of the stuff on here these days is not furthering any cause but giving comfort to those who appear now to be achieving their mission to destroy us. In recent months the amount of bickering, name calling and downright selfishness, by those whose own agenda is bigger than our cause, is making this blog almost unreadable! Your latest post indicates that you are seeing it yourself!

    271. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Capella.

      Thanks for the hint! I trawled down through the WOS Twitter page and found it. Unfortunately, the bottom of the graphic is truncated.

      —————————–

      Hi Robert Peffers.

      Is there anyone on this list “that matters”, or doesn’t matter?

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9HnNxQX4AAOXZ5.jpg

    272. Margaret E says:

      Please, Nana, do not stop posting btl. Your links are the major reason I visit, ss they are very useful and give fast and useful information which I very often archive. I think that Mr Campbell is rather stressed and expresses himself in his usual forthright way. The stress is very understandable in the circumstances. He is providing an invaluable service and by so doing has opened the eyes of many. You too are providing an invaluable service so please do not stop for good. your health is clearly not that good and I so admire your tenacity in getting on with a self-imposed task which is of great benefit to many. Stay with us, please.

    273. Capella says:

      @ Bill McLean – I’m glad you don’t mean to shut down debate. I knew nothing about what was going on until I read a lot on Stu’s twitter and began following up links.
      Robert Peffers posts a lot on constitutional matters and repeating the same posts is great because it gradually filters through what this means.

      Same with the trans issue. It’s been developing in the background for a long time. But through reading through the links the reality of the problem becomes clearer and clearer.

      If anyone wants to look into it then the Week in the War Against Women thread has some great background information and links.

      But I don’t think bringing problems into the open necessarily aids the enemy, especially if it’s something the enemy already knows about and possibly even created.

    274. Bill McLean says:

      Capella – agree about the enemy knowing already, but what about those who are inclined to independence, as we are, and are put off by the rows that are becoming a feature of the blog. I don’t often comment,but used to read this blog in its entirety every day – now, not so much.There appear to be a number of selfish and precious contributors whose own agenda takes priority – maybe some are trolls, maybe some are unionist spoilers – whatever, they are winning as we are falling into the same old Scottish trap – arguing among ourselves and so doing are deterring others from getting involved.

    275. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Bill McLean at 9:18 pm.

      You typed,
      “they are winning as we are falling into the same old Scottish trap – arguing among ourselves and so doing are deterring others from getting involved.”

      I recall reading, years ago, that Scots would argue about the correct colour of $h!t€.

      I guess it’s who we are and how we are.

    276. Cubby says:

      Cassandra

      You have decided not to apologise for your false assertions. You will receive no respect from me in future.

      You complain about people trying to shut you down but that is laughable as you have posted lengthy posts on this thread. It is after all a public forum. You are posting nonsense. Offensive nonsense but nonsense nevertheless.

    277. Capella says:

      @ Bill McLean – the best thing to do if you believe someone to be a troll is to contact Stu direct and link to the post in question. If more than one person complains Stu will deal with it.

      I don’t know what new readers will think of the BTL comments. There have always been differences of opinion and as long as it isn’t just tedious ad hominem attacks I don’t see anything wrong with that. New readers can see that it’s OK to differ and survive.
      The SNP has survived several civil wars since the referendum. I expect this one to blow over too, with care and attention to the detail.

    278. chicmac says:

      The core tenet of Independence First was that everyone who wanted independence could come to the party, i.e. become a member, but MUST leave their personal and ideological agendas at the door.

      Only bringing matters relevant to progressing the constitutional aim of normal levels of self determination and government for Scotland.

      Of course, such is the motivating power of those agendas, that despite signing up to the TACs there were many attempts to sneak those agendas in.

      To give one example, the Edinburgh branch had a strong lefty contingent who were mad keen on having overt support for any secessionist movement anywhere and a consequent identification and association with the Scottish claim. Everything from understandable support for the situation in Catalunya, despite them in fact being in an entirely different constitutional situation to Scotland and who had never even been an independent nation before, to Western Sahara, pop c 60,000, no capital and a continually changing nomadic population.

      Those of us in the non extreme ideological centre had a helluva job trying to persuade them that such association and support was:

      a) Not really our business.

      b) Was in no way equivalent to the Scottish constitutional arrangement.

      c) That if linkage and association were achieved it would actually reduce Scotland’s chances for attaining independence.

      d) That the best thing in fact that could help those others seeking self determination would be the very act of Scotland gaining normal levels of self government.

      e) That if anything they should therefore be urging those other regions to hold fire until that occurrence. They might still fail, but at least then they would have a very strong precedent to cite.

      I think we succeeded in convincing some of them

      That is only one example, we faced several other attempts to shoe in personal and ideological agendas from the far right and left.

      Much of the time was therefore wasted in combating those attempts which would have been far better spent on a discussion focused on attaining independence, although I think we did manage to come up with a few such positive contributions to the cause despite those disruptive attempts.

      Just my 2p’s worth of experience since seems still relevant although things are nowhere near as the ideological overide tendency that existed then (c 2005-7).

    279. Confused says:

      there was a kid at my mates primary school – dumb as a bag of rocks – he didn’t come with a pencil case, protractor and satchel, he came with a ball he dribbled everywhere – for him, playing football was his life

      – alas, he lost his place in the team, and being none too bright, he failed to counter with what others would – train harder, get coaching etc

      – instead he came up with a “cunning plan” worthy of baldrick-on-skunk …

      he went into the packed dinner hall during lunchtime, dropped his pants and threatened to

      AHM GONNY CUT MA DICK AFF

      with a pair of those blunted scissors they used to cut cardboard with, if he was not placed immediately back in the school team (the plan failed) – the further details don’t matter, but it was resolved and what happened next was interesting

      – he was “disappeared” into what we called then “special schools” (i.e. state sponsored paedophile brothels, as we now understand them)

      starter for ten is this : WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TODAY?

      probably the entire school staff sacked for transphobia, the education convener resigning, and a “transition team” sent up from that-london, in a helicopter, flown by gender balanced and diverse pilot crew

      and the thing is, the modern way IS the best way because – think of what would happen

      – after transitioning, he WOULD get back into the team, not THE team, but the GIRLS team, where he could happily knock over the wee lassies like skittles, scoring 10 goals a game … while his gaping wound seeps, threatening to reseal and afterwards he can now fondle his own breasts …

      – THATS WHAT I CALL PROGRESS

      (there is more truth in this story than you might think)

      being serious for a moment – as I see it the SNP have been fantastically successful because of a 2 prong pincer move

      – strong branding – we are for INDEPENDENCE
      and
      – POLICIES ATTRACTIVE TO VOTERS (real cunning stuff)

      now they have become embroiled in issues which are

      FUCKALL TO DO WITH INDEPENDENCE AND WILDLY UNPOPULAR

      it almost looks like – sabotage? – a banana skin of nonsense people are determined to step on; today I saw a story about how 3.2trillion dollars has been swindled out of iran (hence the booga booga), and with the islamists in charge, the swindling is stopped – a good robbery requires misdirection and splitting nationalists along socially-conservative and batshit-progressive seems a good idea, to our enemies.

    280. Capella says:

      @ Confused – it could be sabotage or it could be a naive attempt to help transgender women and men (although the transender men are strangely quiet) without properly assessing how it would impact actual women and men.

      But you’re right about the wildly unpopular bit. Although being unpopular is not necessarily a problem, unless you want people to vote for you, of course.

    281. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Brian Doon The Toon,

      Your posts about studying the lists set me off looking at the WoS Blocklist that has been raised several times in this thread.

      One of the things that hit me like the number 73 bus fae Ninewells is the fact that Patrick Harvie MSP with 90,000 followers has been blocked by Stu., on the WoS Blocklist. Personally and politically I am NOT a fan of Mr Harvie.

      I’m sure there would have been a strong reason for the Rev giving Patrick is Twatter P45, but what worries me is that without the Green MSPs, IndyRef2 may be compromised.

      Surely it is politically wise to maintain a dialogue with the leader of the party who may hold some of the keys to Scottish Independence? By that, I mean the Greens.

      This thread has been very interesting. A wee bit testy at times, and the Rev must be scoffing headache pills in industrial quantities. I couldn’t manage to do his job, even with a thousand hammers 😉

      Hopefully the main man will be able to distill some of the content of this thread into future posts and in a way that is positive for IndyRef2.

      I don’t agree with several of the auld puffins as Essexexile cries them, but I know one thing without a shadow of a doubt…

      Scotland is far better off running itself from Holyrood as an independent nation, than those cripple killing Tories at Westminster led by Boris the Buffoon, Rory the Tory or any other third rate Conservative reject that Dickensian party of death might elect from their undemocratic ranks.

      In the interests of supporting evidence that Rooth The Mooth and her pals have blood on their hands…

      http://www.calumslist.org

    282. twathater says:

      I must admit I don’t have a problem with an overrun from twatter , I am not a member but a lot of useful information can be gleaned from just reading posts and disseminating on WOS which many wingers do ,

      I fully agree with you capella , issues that appear to be unpopular have to be highlighted and brought to the light ,and confused as usual in his/her inimitable non PC way highlights maybe excessively how things can be warped

      As I have opined previously on WOS and other sites I want a government that is answerable to the electorate , not one who thinks that they know best and will carry on irrespective of dissent and objections , we already had these arseholes for many many years we don’t want that repeated , as I posted and many others did also this GRA situation should be parked until we are independent and thereafter should be subject to a referendum of the people when all the facts are known . A similar situation should be used for the likes of OBFA and others to negate the political posturing of opportunists with an axe to grind

      Please NANA you are a VITAL VITAL part of disseminating information to us sponges who then try to spread the word outward we need your commitment and proven dedication don’t abandon us

    283. Skintybroko says:

      Don’t abandon us Nana your links are excellent and well received by the majority on wings, clearly Stu has got the end of his tether and hitting out at the next thing to piss him off- can’t imagine the amount of abuse he must get every single minute of the day from various quarters but hopefully he will be able to forgive you and move on. We do t all agree on everything he does answer says but this website is the most valuable resource we have and you Nana are an integral part of it – keep posting

    284. Hamish100 says:

      Nana keep posting although I have to pick and choose.

      Scotland faces its greatest threat from the inevitability of a more right wing tory than May.With those craving to be PM believing they have to trash our FM, our parliament and our people. Now more than ever our very right to be free thinking Scots is threatened.We MUST stick together. Our goal is too close

    285. cassandra says:

      @Cubby

      Why on earth would I apologize?

      Have you or Peffers or geeo or Petra ever apologized for labelling people as Britnats because they have a different view of how to achieve Independence or because they do not slavishly follow the adoration of ‘Nicola’?

      You still don’t understand that every time you falsely accused someone of being a ‘plant’ or a Britnat or any of the other childish names you and your pathetic gang come up with I posted something just as utterly ridiculous in return.

      I used to post the same stuff that gets approval here – anti BBC, anti- MSM, anti-Tory, ad nauseum and ad infinitum but it gets pretty boring after a while.

      I still think the BBC and MSM are against us and one of the main enemies to Indy but I also saw full blown intolerance of any other view become the norm here. All I saw were the same names saying the same things day after day. Any reasonable views were shot down and Peffers especially was completely out of control, ranting and raving about Britnats and conspiracies, calling people stupid and expecting everyone to defer to his authoritarian dinosaur view of the world.

      The only way to get noticed here is to shout loudly. Well I have done that. I honestly could not care less whether I have your worthless ‘respect’. I don’t live here the way some of you do and I can still read the articles if I’m banned. As far as I am concerned BTL is healthier now that other voices can be heard so job done.



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