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Wings Over Scotland

A job done mostly well

Posted on May 31, 2014 by

We spend a lot of time on this site pulling the Scottish media up on its many and abysmal failings, so it’s only fair that when it occasionally gets something (largely) right we should offer it a little bit of praise and recognition.

And for once we’re not even being sarcastic when we say that, so let’s have a round of only slightly muted applause for this week’s Scottish Sun.

That’s because on Thursday it published the piece below. One of our long-standing criticisms of Scottish newspapers and journalists is that even on the rare occasions when they’re making some sort of pretence at “balance”, that almost always means just printing press releases from both sides (not just one), and making no attempt to inform their readers by establishing whether either side is actually telling the truth.

So unironic, albeit slightly qualified, congratulations are in order for this:


This, of course, is exactly the sort of thing tabloid papers should be doing all day every day: breaking issues that normal people often find complex and bewildering down into easily-understandable snippets – and we do mean BREAKING down, not DUMBING down – and cutting straight to the heart of them.

We can’t quibble at all with the majority of the findings, which are mainly sensible and even-handed. We do, however, take issue with a few relatively minor details and one really big one, so for the sake of accuracy we’ll run through the whole thing quickly:


No complaints about this one. We were particularly impressed to see mention of the fact that this year’s oil figures are unrealistically low and why.


Well, nobody’s saying that the BBC would give Scotland all its programming  “in exchange for programmes made in Scotland”. It’ll give Scotland its programming in exchange for money, like it does for scores of other countries. Ireland, like much of Europe, already gets all of the BBC’s TV channels for, as far as we can ascertain, a modest £20m or so.


Excellent matter-of-fact explanation that the “extra spending” Scotland gets from Westminster is in fact debt that we have to pay back, not a gift.


Nothing wrong here.


We don’t think the Yes campaign or SNP’s position has been that entry would be “automatic” for at least a few years now. Otherwise a fair assessment.


Superb, concise summary.


This is the only categorically wrong thing in the entire feature. Saying “there is absolutely NO guarantee of keeping the Pound after indy” is just flat-out incorrect. There’s no guarantee of a currency union, but any country in the world can use Sterling if it wants to. Many territories that aren’t actually part of the UK, like the Isle Of Man, already do just that.

It’s mystifying that what is otherwise an intelligent and sophisticated analysis could make such a fundamental error on this subject. We can offer no explanation for it.


“Crazy but not impossible” is a wholly reasonable description of the idea of border controls. It could happen, at least in a technical theoretical sense, but it won’t.

Only those who have completely lost control of their senses really think there’s going to be an 80-mile barbed-wire fence with watchtowers from Gretna to Berwick. And if there isn’t, why bother putting up a customs roadblock on the A74 when people could just go round the sides?


Entirely fair, lacking only mention of the possibilities of new finds off the west coast if the Clyde Basin was freed for exploration by the removal of Trident.


Another balanced and reasonable view. There’s no guarantee that Scotland would directly inherit UK kit, but there are plenty of off-the-shelf options to stock our air force and navy with, and there’ll be plenty of money to pay for them.

But on the whole, a solid 8/10. So there you go, Scottish media. Turned out it wasn’t that hard after all. You CAN give people useful information to help them make up their minds, if only you actually try.

Well done to the Scottish Sun, and to everyone else, we hope you’ll be taking a lead from them in the future. Because we’re really busy and we could do without having to stop to smack you round the head every five minutes.

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    204 to “A job done mostly well”

    1. Croompenstein says:

      Now what was so difficult about that, it’s a bit like taking the wean to the dentist they cry foul and go ape but once the tooth is out you say well that wasn’t so bad was it.

      We really need more of this in the tabloids the Retard usually follows the Sun’s lead so hopefully they will have a similar feature.

      PS – No cartoon today?

    2. Peter A Bell says:

      It appears that the image file is corrupted.

    3. Bawheid Bragg says:

      The BBC? Wonder how many Wingers would miss it.

      Oil? Wasn’t the ‘biggest oilfield in the world’ recently discovered off of Lewis?

      ‘Scotland couldn’t afford to take part in major overseas operations like the invasion of Iraq’? Uh…

    4. Seasick Dave says:


      Due to uncertainty over how many teeth will be lost in an independent Scotland caused by increasingly poor diet, the Tooth Fairy will no longer operate north of the heavily fortified border.

      Accompanied by Johann Lamont, the Tooth Fairy said, “Withoot Westminster subsidies, ah’ll no be able to afford to pay for aw they rotten teeth. Plus, whit money would ah use?”

    5. Alfresco Dent says:

      Well done to the Sun! Who’da thunk it?

    6. Grouse Beater says:

      A shared currency means England also must give up some sovereignty.

      I have yet to see a single politician, our own included, newspaper or pundit, allude to that fact.

    7. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Sun ref needs specks. I would only agree to accept three assessments (affordability, the Euro amd the oil fund). The rest were far more ‘subjective’, IMO. Are you feeling OK today?

    8. aldo_macb says:

      Will the Sun come out for Yes? They may remain neutral but it looks highly unlikely they’ll support No. Scottish media could do with at least one daily paper supporting Yes to give people some balance.

    9. Tim F-G says:

      If they keep it up, I could see the Sun becoming the first tabloid to back Independence, especially if the gap in the polls is closed before September.

    10. mjaei says:

      Hmmm… I don’t know, Rev.

      I’m not sure about calling for a round of applause because you’ve found a single example of indyref journalism which doesn’t contain *too many* factual errors or glaring omissions of important information…

    11. Grouse Beater says:

      On border controls – they already exist at all airports, and major docks, and truck weighing stations have existed for a decade on our main trunk-motorway roads in, sitting right on the boder line, the weighing to adduce which truck or big rig is carrying more than on their delivery sheet. These areas can be activated at any time, day or night.

      It needs very little to turn them then to fully functioning 24/7 stop and search stations.

      Though you can pass from Republic to Northern Ireland without a stop or passport, (a journey I took recently) as far as I am concerned, if one day border controls are required it means jobs created, a welcome innovation.

    12. Juteman says:

      It woz the Sun what run it.

    13. themadmurph says:

      excellent post Stu. I’m fed up trying to explain the GBP situation to people. It’s not hard! I still think once all the politicking is finished there will be a currency union, but then who am I? I just went to an ordinary secondary school and a bit of college afterwards, but I do have a degree of common sense!

    14. Grouse Beater says:

      This just in:

      “Ukip supporters least likely to eat foreign food.”

      Jeezus! Give me strength.

    15. Jim Thomson says:

      O/T – and on a positive note

      Update from yesterday’s post about the “solar panels on yer roof” man. It seems that the “wee” pile of articles provided by my missus to him has had a positive outcome. Not only a new “Yes” voter but, his family too. All worth the effort. 🙂

    16. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Brings bananas to mind for some reason.

    17. Breeks says:

      I would dispute the fact you cannot set up an oil fund when you run a deficit. An oil fund will augment your GDP with interest & divideds, and once it exists, it becomes a golden goose laying golden eggs indefinitely.
      Furthermore, we get hung up on oil funds, but our renewables industry might facilitate a capital fund too.
      This isn’t rocket science. Wealthy people have been making themselves financially independent for generations through having enough income to live on from their assets, so that they are in surplus even when times are tough. They do not wait to pay off one mortgage before borrowing another, they put tenants in the property so the mortgage pays itself, and in time the property is paid for but remains a source of income.

    18. Dinnatouch says:

      We can offer no explanation for it.

      Say that with a straight face Rev.

    19. galamcennalath says:

      It is sometimes hinted (above) that the Sun might come out in favour of Independence. Actually, I don’t think this would necessarily be a good thing. Balanced is better than biased, which is only branded by the other side as untrustworthy.

      What would be much better would be more impartial analysis to support people make up their minds. I wish some others and the BBC would do as the Sun has done there!

      Personally (and of course I’m biased) I believe Yes have the best case for the future and No have a fundimentally flawed Union which is very hard to sell – Yes has nothing to fear from good genuinely balanced critical journalism.

      The problem for Yes is the outright lies and deceit most of the MSM spew out!

    20. Breeks says:

      I might qualify that previous comment, because the sheer volume of UK debt might limit the options, especially if defaults occur and the UK cannot keep up the payments. Get whatever debt we have under control, and then make an oil/renewable fund the first priority.

    21. handclapping says:

      Not to mention pineapples oranges walnuts cranberries turkey potato tomato pasta and some of them have different skin colours like peppers. Stick to porridge I say

    22. Grouse Beater says:

      Cynical Highlander says: Brings bananas to mind for some reason.

      Exactly. And oranges. And coffee. And pizzas. And …

    23. Horseboy says:

      Found this inspirational, on EnglishScotsForYES:

      “Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind.” Winston Churchill

      This says it all.
      Determine our own destiny.
      Our Parents fought 2 world wars.
      Don’t be afraid.
      Make it happen.
      Peace to all.
      Vote YES.

    24. CameronB Brodie says:

      Not really O/T and quite encouraging. 🙂

      Twitter says Yes to Scottish Independence, as Hotwire analyses #indyref sentiment in lead up to referendum.

    25. Peter A Bell says:

      Still no image being displayed because it “contains errors”.

    26. JGedd says:

      However, the mistake about currency is quite a crucial one – if mistake it is.

      Since, it appears, that the threat over the pound did not seem to have the effect that the UK hoped it would have, could this be the reason for an apparent abrupt departure from a reasoned argument? Poison goes down more easily if it’s concealed in a seemingly agreeable package.

      Disarm your enemy by appearing to agree with most of his argument but hide a little explosive dissent in the middle?

      Maybe I’m just being cynical but I’m just thinking of an undecided voter reading this and thinking,” Well, that was reasonable, fair to both sides, backs up Yes on one or two things, but – wait a minute, here’s that thing about currency. Now if they’re bringing that up again, well maybe….”

    27. Taranaich says:

      It definitely IS a step in the right direction, though to be frank, I think what you call “quibbles” are a bit more than that. It’s good that The Sun have finally started to show a bit of balance, but the problem then becomes acknowledging that there *is* no respective balance in the case for Yes and No. This is the equivalent of going from a heavily Creationist bias, to giving Creationists and Evolutionary Scientists equal credit. Still a long way to go, but good on them all the same.

    28. Dinnatouch says:

      Peter A Bell says:
      Still no image being displayed because it “contains errors”.

      Works fine here Peter. Maybe your ISP doesn’t like such a large image, I’ve had that same message before with big images.

    29. Defo says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      Twitter says Yes to Scottish Independence, as Hotwire analyses #indyref sentiment in lead up to referendum.

      “Hotwire found that little traction has been gained by the ‘no’ vote across Twitter. Only twice has the amount of support for a ‘no’ alongside #indyref climbed above one per cent of the total online mentions.”


    30. Defo says:

      Peter A Bell says:
      Still no image being displayed because it “contains errors”.

      It’s corrupted !

    31. Macart says:

      Yeah 8/10 is about right.

    32. a2 says:

      What could be more British than a nice cup of tea? ohh!

    33. heedtracker says:

      If Rebecca Brooks does just one day in prison, Murdoch will back Scottish Independence.

    34. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Peter A Bell

      It appears to be made up of 11 images joined together.

    35. Grouse Beater says:

      a2 says: What could be more British than a nice cup of tea?


    36. rab_the_doubter says:

      I know that ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ but I really really do not want any association between the ‘Sun’ and YES. That rag is just pure poison.

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      There were three or four assessments I could partially accept, so my 3/10 might have been a bit harsh. 🙂 Then again, what reason do I have to be charitable? I see none and the circumstances deserve none, IMO.

    38. David Milligan Lvss says:

      Apart from the one’s that you’ve already pointed out Rev Stu, I do have a knot in my stomach regarding the oil fund. The investment going into the oil industry has also had an effect on revenues this year and probably will next year as well, that’s because such investment is deductible against tax (revenues). Once the heavy investment is over, the oil companies will increase production from 1.5 million BOE to 2 million BOE per day, that’s a 25% increase AND they won’t have much to deduct from the tax they have to pay.

      It should come right just about the time we declare our independence. I figure we’ll have plenty left over to pop into a sovereign wealth fund each year, for a good number of years as well.

      One more little thing…….we’re now looking at 100 years of oil production. Okay we’ll all be getting about on anti-grav hover boards by then. Let’s just hope they’re invented in Scotland, eh?

      Kindest regards,

      David Milligan Lvss

    39. David Briggs says:

      ‘A shared currency means England also must give up some sovereignty.

      I have yet to see a single politician, our own included, newspaper or pundit, allude to that fact.’

      Most definitely Swinney and Salmond have and probably Sturgeon as well.

      You can’t have been listening?

    40. Proud Cybernat says:

      So YES team are two players down, NO one player down but each team has two players booked. Did YES score its two penalties?

    41. Chris Darroch says:

      No….The Sun is definitely no shining there. They are trying some of that middle of the road stuff (but still negative about prospect) as opposed to all out fear and negativity…..

    42. Democracy Reborn says:

      Next week’s Sun headline:-
      “Blair McDougall ate my hamster!”

      Sept 18th:-
      “If the No side wins today, will the last person in Scotland please turn off the lights…”

      Sept 19th:-
      “It’s the Sun wot won it!”

      Seriously, if the Sun came out in favour of Yes, I think we should welcome it. Bigger daily circulation than the Record & a bit of balance to the pish from the MSM.

    43. Cactus says:

      The presentation of their article itself is a good template and they should use it for more questions about Scotland (to then be checked over here).

      Some people say they don’t have the time to get to the facts about independence because of whatever. Information presented in easily digestible snippets allows the reader to understand things better and is less to take in, than all at the one time.. it’s a bit like seeking all your independence information on the 17th September!

      That’s why I like my independence information in bite sized pieces and am here among others. Come to think of it, Wings Over Scotland is like a tapas bar for me hehe 🙂

      What’s today’s special Rev?

    44. Andy-B says:

      I won’t hold my breath, waiting for the Scotsman or the Telegraph, producing, a near truthful and practical pull out section, of the mainly pro’s and not cons of independence, though one can live in hope, but hats off to the Sun, for looking at Scottish independence, without the BT blinkers on.

    45. Grouse Beater says:

      Briggs says: You can’t have been listening.

      Or reading anything? Where are the quotations?

      They may glossed over it, but I don’t recall that fact as part of a quid pro quo argument

      Any any event, my criticism is in the main aimed at foes in answer to their manic misleading chant, “Sharing isn’t real independence.”

    46. heedtracker says:

      It’s a million times more informative than anything you’ll get in say vote NO or else Press and Journal here in Aberdeen but sow the wind BBC

    47. Fireproofjim says:

      @bawheid Bragg
      You are partly correct. The biggest potential hydrocarbon basin yet discovered in the world lies to the west of Lewis. Although seismic data is very encouraging, no drilling has yet been done to prove it. However as the geology is very similar to the North Sea, chances are good for massive oil and gas fields there.
      Don’t let the UK treasury steal this one.
      Always remember and keep repeating – Norway has a trillion dollar oil fund and Scotland does not have a penny, thanks to the short sighted Westminster treasury. Only Saddam Husein’s Iraq and the UK have failed to save anything of their oil windfall.
      Utter fools!

    48. Vestas says:

      I assume its “slightly muted applause” because its the Sun?

      If that had appeared in the Guardian maybe the “applause” would have been slightly less “muted” 😉

      That little article will have done more for Yes than if all the “Scottish” broadsheets suddenly switched to Yes overnight.

      Bit elitist Rev IMHO.

    49. seoc says:


      If we do not do this ourselves, who can we ask to do this for us?
      Best then, to ask someone who has the proven ability and the necessary experience to do it. Someone who wants to do it.

      As it stands there is only one candidate – a self-appointed one with the most utterly appalling record of involvement and tampering with other countries welfare – military invasion, murder, theft, using someone’s fair and cherished land as a dump for their own filth.
      Count in political controlling behaviour, lies and deceit on just about anything of value they covet, using the young for their incessant wars and of course imposing their own ways, unsought, upon us and calling it Law.

      We really must consider carefully and before time runs out.

      How well do they run their own place?
      Full human equality in all things? Do they play favourites – are some ‘special’ groupings exempt from the normal burdens of the many? Is their wealth evenly distributed? Do they share their onerous tasks equally?

      The most cursory look shows that they do not – privilege reigns.

      Nah, they’re not up to the task of running Scotland.

    50. David Briggs says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Swinney said this to the Economics committee a few months ago and I heard Salmond and Sturgeon say this around the same time.

      All either live or on video. Surprisingly the MSM doesn’t repeat stuff like this for your delectation. I wonder why?

      I spend a bit of time watching BBC Democracy live, especially the Committee sessions and it’s surprising what you see and hear that isn’t mentioned on the MSM.

      Why disbelieve me? Do you seriously think that the SG hasn’t mentioned this in passing?

      I’ll have a look for Swinney’s evidence, if it’s still available. YouTube may be my friend.

    51. Fireproofjim says:

      I have never liked the Sun, but a positive front page there will reach more undecided voters than any number of tweets or blogs.
      Grit your teeth if you will but welcome their support if it comes.
      There will be time for moralising after the 18th of September.

    52. Grouse Beater says:

      Biggs says: Do you seriously think that the SG hasnt mentioned this?”

      Can you do the patronising comments?

      I think it too often taken as understood by everybody, or implied, thus allowing the No brigade and Westminster to depict a currency union as a lop-sided proposition.

    53. Grouse Beater says:

      “It’s ein’de

    54. Grouse Beater says:

      “It’s reffin’ decision time”

      Interesting a newspaper feels the need to use illustration, and red and yellow colours, in order to aid reader understanding.

    55. dadsarmy says:

      Well spotted. The sort of thing YES Scotland should do on its website is have a permanent column something like “If you don’t trust Better Together or YES Scotland (and who can blame you), here’s what others are saying”. Followed by links to such as the SUN thing with brief description. Follwed by a paragraph underneath “We don’t agree with all that’s said, but take on board (yeeeuch) the criticism.”.

      I’ve said for over 2 years that YES’s bigest weapon is the truth, warts and all. It’s time it brought that big gun into play, though I have noticed the odd sign of it with the Scottish Government, e.g. with the start-up costs. It’s a weapon that non only is the NO unlikely to use, it’s one that, basically speaking, they can not afford to use. The Truth will blow them out of the water, into vapour, dispersed over a huge distance into No-ness. Nessie fodder.

    56. dadsarmy says:

      A point about the EU thing, I checked and the French Constitution does not require a referendum, only if Treaty changes have (some sort of significance). My reading was that Scotland’s (continued) membership wasn’t one, and that a parliamentary majority (possibly two-thirds) would be enough. Sorry, I forget the details it was a while ago, and sometimes I forg

    57. Davie says:

      Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing.

    58. Grouse Beater says:

      Fireproodjim: have never liked the Sun, but a positive front page there will reach more undecided voters

      Interviewed fairly recently, the Sun’s Scottish editor refused to say which side of the argument his newspaper supports.

      “We haven’t decided yet. We’re keeping an open mind.”

      I interpreted that as a reluctance to give ammunition to those who accuse Salmond of partying with Murdoch. Which means, in my mind I am hoping the Sun comes out in favour of independence closer to the Referendum – without alienating the intelligentsia.

    59. HandandShrimp says:

      It is a sad state of affairs when the Sun actually has a more balanced and more in depth coverage of the issues than the Telegraph, Guardian, Scotsman etc,

      I don’t think they are entirely right on Ireland and immigration though. I believe the Home Office thinks they are too lax and a new computer check system has been introduced by the Home Office that Dublin can plug into so that the Home Office can run security checks on people coming into Ireland.

      What is the Sun’s position. I am vaguely aware that they don’t seem to come into the firing line all that often. It seems to me that they are keeping their powder dry as to who they will give their wholehearted support to. Are they waiting to see if Yes are likely winners before declaring their stance?

    60. Better Together St Kilda says:

      The Sun’s aim is to always be on the winning side, thereby retaining its readership – if they declare, it will be sure that that side will win. The Sun has always done that, if its usual readership thought the sun was party political they would abandon it.

    61. YESGUY says:

      Dont trust any of the MSM they are all about sales and london based. Unless the Sun comes out with a yes vote support in big bloody writing then i’ll pass .

      I know every little bit helps Stu and i get that myself only i can’t be as forgiven as you. The MSM have lied and scared this country non-stop since the referendum was mentioned. If we win indi it will be through the grass roots work . The message is getting out and i see the Sun jumping on a bandwagon. any bandwagon their not fussy.

      There are still food banks out there, people being sanctioned for the slightest mistake, bedroom tax is still there and the brutal cuts directed at our sick and disabled . Where’s the Sun’s voice there. Why haven’t they told people what the treasury is doing lying to the people of Scotland . Their silence like all the MSM speaks volumes to me .

      Don’t buy this rag , they are responsible for covering up the hillsborough incident. They took thatchers side against the miners and are only playing to the gallery in the hope it will boost sales.Bloody hypocrites treating Scots as idiots. have a look at the English version and see if you feel they are “on our side” and as for the list they gave, ha ha its hardly gonna change anyone@s voting intentions.

      And they get away with it by saying they are neutral . Bollocks. THE MSM ARE NOT NEUTRAL

    62. dadsarmy says:

      July 2013:
      The Scottish Sun: -14.1% from 306,930 to 263,512
      Daily Telegraph: -4.7% from 19,580 to 18,650
      The Guardian: -10.7% from 11,901 to 10,623

      I’ve been in shops and seen who buys the Guardian. It’s mostly English tourists, visitors, or people here on business. It would be interesting to know how many of that 10,623 and dropping is indigenous native with a vote – 50%? Less? It’s part of the reason I packed up posting there, that and SC apaprently taking comments, and then totally ignoring the truth in closed articles. Or should I say, the forthcoming Sir SC.

    63. themadmurph says:

      @Jim Thomson 1:55
      Well done sir! Keep up the good work! Never miss an opportunity!

    64. Les Wilson says:

      Horseboy says

      “Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind.” Winston Churchill:

      Hi, my son is putting that on the wall of his new offices (quite big)and he has clients from all over the UK and Ireland. Yup, he is a definite YES!

    65. Papadox says:

      I’m 67 yrs old and as a kid we were told “kids should be seen and not herd” I was belted at school frequently, for not following rules breaking them and having to much to say for myself.

      I believe that’s where this attitude of to stupid to wee to poor came from. Somebody else was always making decisions for us. Parents teachers doctors bosses etc. a lot of people still look for someone else making decisions for them and we just dae as were telt.

      Don’t think for yourself and make your own plans for life, just follow the herd and you’ll fit in.

      I am talking in generalisations of yesteryear, things are changing slowly. But the older ones who just followed the herd still do, but don’t have the confidence to make radical changes, their feart, so better not to change anything. Hence they are immune to positive argument and evidence. So you get the unanswerable “a don’t like yon Alex Salmond” whatever the hell that has to do with a referendum, that’s just a smokescreen they can hide behind.

      It’s just the thoughts of a old man ( who worked around the world) and can’t understand the national mentality of the older Scots. Ps I was a headstrong self opinionated rebel. I’ve mellowed a bit since then.

    66. Les Wilson says:

      On the SUN, I used to read it fairly regularly and what I noticed, that up to now at any rate. Was that they would put in an article which may have been a bit fairer to YES, but generally bigger article which definitely sided with NO. Sometimes this was a number of smaller NO articles.

      I never buy it now because they are playing buyers, in that they are giving YES, a reason to buy it on hope, while still promoting NO.

      It is a good ploy as it will have drawn YES readers too.
      However, their articles ( and picked comments )in total were NO. So,I do not take this as a really positive, until I fail to see it being overshadowed by NO articles on consecutive days, weeks. Then I will consider buying once more.

    67. TJenny says:

      Is that ref Cockers? Nah, can’t be, not enough frothing venom in the decisions.

    68. Jim Manclark says:

      Given that Scotland is due to be able to meet 100% of its electricity or was it energy usage from wind and wave power by 2020 then we really don’t need to rely on oil for that side of the equation. This would mean being able to put oil money aside for a nest egg while still selling some. or am I getting that wrong ?

      Solar Panels I heard mentioned, I have those and my electricity billd have halved in less than a year. I don’t know why they aren’t mandatory for all new houses and for council houses. Sure it would put the price up slightly or the rent but you would get it back from the money you saved.

    69. jon esquierdo says:

      How do we educate the uneducated?

    70. Better Together St Kilda says:

      @ jon esquierdo – do all we can to engage with people, listen to them, understand what they say and use the information on sites like this to encourage them to think for themselves.

    71. Better Together St Kilda says:

      Actually maybe a task force of certain ladies who comment on Wings could tour our schools and deliver some discipline – Papadox 4:53.

    72. HandandShrimp says:

      Ref looks like Torquil to me

    73. jon esquierdo says:

      Better together StKilda, I have spent the last seven hours on the streets of Cumnock and OMFG I have never heard the like from so many uneducated people and it does not matter how you approach it. Some say they have always voted Labour and it does not matter if the NHS is being privatised Labour will sort it out when they get in – I said it is looking more likely to be a Tory Ukip coalition to which they answer that I am wrong and Labour will win in 2015 how do you get it across when the cells are redundant

    74. FlimFlamMan says:

      @Grouse Beater

      A shared currency means England also must give up some sovereignty.

      I have yet to see a single politician, our own included, newspaper or pundit, allude to that fact.

      I don’t know about politicians, but the Governor of the BofE talked about it.

      Westminster may be keeping quiet about it because they feel it paints their position as being weak, since the UK, and rUK, cannot credibly maintain a currency union – a genuine union with sovereignty ceded on both sides – whereas Scotland probably/maybe could. The reason is the thing* I keep banging on about: the [r]UK external deficit is only guaranteed to be sustainable via currency sovereignty.

      If a country is constantly leaking money via an external deficit, but it has its own currency, the government can run sustained deficits to fill the spending gap. It can do so because it doesn’t have to acquire the currency it uses from elsewhere, the markets. If it doesn’t have its own currency then it does have to rely on funding from the markets, if available, and at whatever interest rate they demand.


      I would dispute the fact you cannot set up an oil fund when you run a deficit.

      Governments can create funds while also running a deficit provided they have their own currency. Without their own currency said governments have to acquire whatever currency they use, and supply to the fund, and that is done by running surpluses.

      That said, if Scotland has its own currency it becomes largely pointless to run an oil fund, since with its own currency the Scottish government could always create whatever money was necessary to run the economy at full capacity, plus whatever amount foreigners want to acquire.

      I might qualify that previous comment, because the sheer volume of UK debt might limit the options, especially if defaults occur and the UK cannot keep up the payments.

      The government of the UK faces zero risk of default since it has currency sovereignty. If you have your own currency and issue any debt in that same currency there is no mechanism by which you can be forced into default. You can’t run out of the thing – the currency – which you yourself create.

      The rUK will also face zero default risk provided it retains currency sovereignty, which takes us back to my reply to Grouse Beater.

      *Okay. One of the things; I bang on about currency in general.

    75. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @kininvie –

      If you see this, could you please send me a postal address – both copies of my book ended up in the raffle, but one was earmarked for you. As it turned out I won one of them back and went looking for you, but you’d already gone and I gave it to Quinie fae Angus.


      ian [at] stevenston4 [dot] fsnet [dot] co [dot] uk

    76. Liquid Lenny says:


      Re Norwegian oilfund, last time I checked Norway was running a deficit of sorts, they were borrowing at under 3% and investing that in the oil fund which was giving an average return on investment of 7%. Nothing to stop us doing the same.


      Murdoch hates the Brit Establishment with a passion. Starting with his family have to emigrate to OZ to get on and then they tried to stop him buying the NoW in the sixties. I think he will get at least one of his papers to come out for YES, more than likely the Sun.

      jon esquierdo – Educating the Uneducated.

      You don’t waste your time on them, ask voting intention 0 for def no and 10 for def yes, if they are lower than 3 forget them, move on and find somebody 3 or higher and try and nudge them up the scale. Then leave it to the next Yes(er) to nudge them up again, soon they will be definite YES and will be searching out undecided to convert.

    77. Better Together St Kilda says:

      I agree Liquid Lenny – but one’s spoon must have a very long handle, yes go for those who waver, in so many cases they are our hidden demographic. Be kind and caring – address their questions and preserve their dignity, we will all benefit from our love for our people.

    78. Thepnr says:

      I still think we need to win this despite the MSM. If the Sun did chose to come over to our side then that would be a great boost. No doubt of that.

      Will it happen, maybe IMO, I put it at no more than even money. They might or might not. Maybe best then just to do as we are doing for now. Ignore them and deliver our own brand of truth where we can.

      Quinie fae Angus is having problems posting messages just now for some reason but she asked me to post on a wee story.

      CA week past Sunday she was in Glasgow airport waiting on a flight to France, she stopped at the paper shop to buy a Sunday Herald but there was a man standing in front of the rack preventing people from reaching in.

      He had the Sunday Herald open at pages 2-3 and was reading it avidly and was oblivious to those behind him.

      It was Douggie Alexander haha, their on the run. If the Sun did start supporting Yes then I believe no doubt we would win. But is it doesn’t I still believe we will.

      Don’t hope for it though, just work harder.

    79. Croompenstein says:

      BBC Scotlandshire report that Offord has had his nob cut off..

    80. Croompenstein says:

      Wee bit of help required friends..

      I was talking to a naysayer today and I was discussing the NHS. I said we should vote yes to keep the Scottish NHS free at the point of need as the English NHS was being privatised. He said I was talking pish and that the English NHS wasn’t being privatised that’s just one of Salmonds scare stories.

      The problem is I couldn’t cite any examples of the privatisation in England…help

    81. Abaron Nomore says:

      The Sun, should they decide to favour Yes, would be more effective to us by not declaring for Yes. In my view, it is a pity the Sunday Herald didn’t keep quiet about supporting Yes and just print balanced articles – that’s all we need from anyone. Now what they write can be dismissed as being openly “biased” (unlikely their covertly biased daily sister paper.

      Incidentally, I did a YouGov survey a couple of weeks ago which asked a lot of questions about Indyref and also about the Murdoch press and what might make me buy the Sun.

      I thought at the time they might be weighing up what stance would be most advantageous to them and naturally did my bit to suggest they would sell at least one more copy with a balanced or Yes-friendly approach.

    82. jon esquierdo says:

      Croompensation Virgin health care have landed major contracs in Surrey Sussex and Devon NHS. Circle health care have also received large contracts and part of the ambulance service in Manchester has been privatised

    83. Edulis says:

      If I am not mistaken, the Fiscal Commission, with its Nobel Laureates promoted the idea of having two oil funds, even when we are running a deficit. Who is whats-his-name to say that it can’t be done. Even Norway borrows and saves at the same time.

    84. msean says:

      The Edinburgh tram story is trundling around on the news,but who started the tram programme off? There is no mention of who messed it up.Just wondering.

    85. Croompenstein says:

      @Thanks Nana @Thanks jon..

      OMFG I am bursting with anger and frustration after reading the stuff from the links you provided Nana. We have got to get out of this Union of unequals.

      It looks like it’s heading for a USA style health provision where you will have to pay to see GP or have day surgery etc.

      What is wrong with some of us Scots. I would challenge anyone to look at this and tell me not to worry.

    86. crazycat says:


      I just tried to post a link to Philippa Whitford’s YouTube video, which mentions private companies creaming off easy but lucrative operations. My post hasn’t appeared (I don’t know how to do clickable links so maybe what I did has caused havoc; if so, apologies all round). If you google it you’ll find it easily enough.

    87. CameronB Brodie says:

      Not exactly examples, but here is the British Medical Journal has to say on the matter.

      NHS Reforms
      Further privatisation is inevitable under the proposed NHS reforms

    88. jon esquierdo says:

      I think it was the labour controlled edinburgh city council or was it a coalition?

    89. kestral says:


      I think I am beginning to understand currency

      and how if you print your own currency you can’t be forced into default

      So I am going to try to simplify it and can you tell me if I am right

      Own currency = can’t be forced into default = can just keep printing more and more money = that currency becomes worth less = we pay more for a loaf of bread (in relative terms)

      Is that correct?

    90. crazycat says:

      @ Croompenstein and cynicalHighlander –

      That’s the one. Thanks.

    91. Nana Smith says:


      I understamd your anger.We all knew the tories were scum but labour have been the conmen all along.We were suckered into voting for them.

    92. Clootie says:

      I need to adjust my “balance meter”. For me it still had a load of crap in it. I don’t want to applaud less bias than usual.

      Sorry for being the grumpy one 😛

    93. Croompenstein says:

      @Thanks crazycat,Cameron,cynical highlander.

      Thank God for Wings..

      I think what was driving the naysayer was that no-one pays to see GP or have A&E or operations in England and I couldn’t argue back against this but there can be no doubt that the elite are targeting the NHS much in the same way as they have targeted all our other public services and something I have encountered is that not many folk know the Scottish NHS is a separate organisation.

    94. Thepnr says:


      Here’s a specific example where the Tories want to sell YOUR blood and another more general one that may convince the naysayer.

    95. Onwards says:

      I would take the Sun every day if they came out for YES.
      They still have enough power to swing it in Scotland’s favour.
      Actually, I would be surprised if they didn’t – with a great big GIRFUY.

      Murdoch was treated pretty shabbily by the UK government, and it looks like Tony Blair was knocking off his wife behind his back..

      Besides all that, it seems like he has a lot of goodwill for Scotland.

    96. We Are All Bourgeois Now says:

      Hmmm, I’m not sure whether The Sun coming out as a Yes would be a good thing or not. Yes, it would be great to have at least one paper on our side, to counter all the others, but as a woman, I fear The Sun on the yes side will put even more of us women off!

      Are people really that swayed in which way to vote by a paper?! I mean, I’m a Yes, and the Sun coming out for Yes wouldn’t change me to No, but if I was undecided, would it put me off Yes? I don’t know!

    97. crazycat says:

      @ Croompenstein

      Nobody pays to see the GP in England yet, but they were discussing it fairly recently. They voted against it (and at present the GPs in their Clinical Commissioning Groups seem to have the final say on this), but the mere fact that they considered it shows (I think) that it won’t be long before they feel the financial pressure and do start to charge. That will drive people to A&E for as long as that remains free, with predictable effects, so ….

    98. Better Together St Kilda says:

      Vote Yes – to secure all that is best about being British, vote no to leave the union and take a step into a neo-feudalist winner takes all nightmare.

    99. Thepnr says:

      Murdoch is a maybe the worst example of capitalism we may ever hope to encounter. It was the likes of Murdoch and his views that got GB into this mess in the first place (But gave us an opportunity to change that).

      He is a self server first and foremost, if there is something in it for him in an Independent Scotland he will lend his weight behind Yes.

      Else, his papers will support NO. My view is there a lot of readers of the Sun in Scotland, if he came out for a Yes then it would undoubtedly help those who never use the internet to come out for Yes.

      Doesn’t mean I’ve sold my soul, but I will take all the help I can get. Until the 19th September that is!

    100. Croompenstein says:

      @Thepnr – Holy Lumping F*ck they sold the blood!! OMG a few lines from those links..

      Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?

      Plasma supplies have a long record of being operated on a not for profit basis, using voluntary donors where all the necessary checks take place. The difference with a commercial firm is that they will want to have as many donors as possible and be looking to secure large profits first and foremost

      The problem is the government are wasting tens of millions of pounds on these contracts, money that should be spent on front-line patient care

      These companies have a record of just walking away when things go wrong and dumping the problems back on the NHS as we saw with the PIP breast implants scandal

    101. kestral says:

      Nana Smith

      I am utterly gutted by what I have read on your link

      Here I am earning a wage that does mean that in Scotland I will have to pay more into our society

      and you know what I love it, I endorse it and I want it

      It saved me when I was able to go back to college and retrain and have help to pay towards child care cost to attend college for a few days a week

      I had the chance to turn around my life thanks to a benefit system that allowed me to do it

      I now have a great job that pays me a lot of money and you know what I am more than happy to pay more to allow this story to be repeated 100 times over

      and yet those who have money, much much more than me are soooooooooo driven to make more in an utterly corrupt manner that harms those who they were elected to protect

      I looked it up – and looked at the years it was said

      Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupt absolutely – Acton (1834–1902)

      Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it – William Pitt the Elder

      So many said it, so long ago, and yet still with us today

      So I must ask the question – can we change?

    102. Nana Smith says:


      can we change? I bloody well hope so.

      Happy you managed to turn things around in your favour and long may you reap the benefit.

    103. Edward says:


      I can assure you and anyone else here that NHS England has for quite a while turned over services to the private sector

      There are many Health Trusts that are partly privatised, with the main provider being Virgin Healthcare

      NHS England is a basket case, with staff moral low and as a result staff retention is a problem.

      Another problem as result of PFI contracts being saddled on a large swathe of Health Trusts, many are practically going bust

    104. Croompenstein says:

      @kestral – I think we can change and that’s what scares them. I firmly believe that Alex Salmond put’s the Scottish people before his party and his own political career unlike the Flipper’s and Lord Foulksakes who have sold out to British patronage.

      It’s all about power and money for the imperialists,they don’t give a monkeys for the people. They do what they please and get away with it, they can blow the president of the USA’s head clean off and tell you a mad guy did it, they will fight to keep Scotland and we may be powerless to stop them fiddling it.

    105. Hood says:

      Here is a vid of Allyson Pollock, Professor of Public Health Research & Policy at Queen Mary, University of London.

      She is talking about the English NHS.


    106. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “He said I was talking pish and that the English NHS wasn’t being privatised that’s just one of Salmonds scare stories.”

      Jeesh, some people just really don’t want to know. Tell the dope to Google “NHS privatisation”, it’s not exactly rocket science. It’s all there.

    107. Thepnr says:

      What does Independence mean for me? Well 15 months ago I couldn’t have given an answer because I would have argued that Independence in Scotland would not happen and it would be daft to think otherwise.

      Funnily enough, since I don’t like to make such an important decision as “a blind man” I wanted to know more but found I could only get the balance I sought online (haha).

      Didn’t take long before I realised how much I had been taken for a fool and went completely to Yes. That, remember was starting as an automatic NO.

      So in these last 15 months things have only got worse in terms of providing the ordinary person with the facts they need, my, how I have become more and more pissed off with our establishment.

      In the face of this we all know how difficult it can be to get the message across face to face. Left with no choice that’s our only option. Waiting on the right opportunity is the key.

      We do have an opponent, nah, to be honest an enemy and they are strong and powerful, they are called “the state” but states fall and new ones arise. We, the people of Scotland have them on the run. Not Yes Scotland, none of the political parties. It is us ordinary people who normally couldn’t care less that are making the difference and have “the state” worried.

      Keep up the pressure, get the badges on. Stick the leaflets through the doors, hand Aye Right cards to the taxi drivers you meet. Keep up the good fight 🙂

    108. Croompenstein says:

      @Thanks Hood will watch

      @cynicalhighlander – A ComRes poll in March found that while one in four (27%) people said they would be willing to pay £10 to visit their GP visit rather than see the practice shut down, more than double that – 56% – were against any charges

      WTF who are the one in four! Jeez

      @Rev Stu – What the moron was saying was give me an instance of Joe Bloggs from Lincoln paying to see his GP or paying for A&E or operation, but it looks like it’s certainly headed that way.

    109. Paula Rose says:

      ( don’t forget the bus drivers )

    110. Democracy Reborn says:

      @jon esquierdo; @Croompenstein

      Re. NHS privatisation

      I’m not good at links but if you Google the Guardian for 8/1/14, there’s a good article headed:-
      “The NHS is on the brink of extinction – we need to shout about it”

      Re. Labour voters in Scotland’s ‘disbelief’ that privatisation is actually taking place, the excellent BMJ article linked by Cameron B above nails it. See the WHO definition of “privatisation” of health care – what’s happening down south meets the criteria.

      And another 2 points that should be made to Labour voters:-

      1. New Labour in England started the shift towards privatisation with foundation hospitals & the ‘any willing provider’ model. Frank Dobson, quoted in the BMJ article, was critical at the time : “If this isn’t privatisation of the NHS, I don’t know what is.”

      2. For Labour voters who think that a future UK Labour govt will undo things, ask yourself this : during the whole of Tony Blair & Gordon Brown’s tenure, did Labour reverse any of the Tory privatisations?

    111. goldenayr says:

      I feel sick…and it’s just been made worse by the sycophancy to the Sun I’ve just read on here.

      How about making me feel better by starting a new campaign?

      “We all hate wee Nigel”

      I used to think it was just Jonathan Davies that hated Scotland.The last few years have proved they all do.

    112. Liquid Lenny says:

      Re Labour, we don’t SHOUT out loud enough that it was Gordon Brown who introduced the Bedroom Tax in 2008.

      The Con Dems widened its scope to include Social Housing but Brown was the guy who thought the concept up and introduced it for private rentals.

    113. Rock says:

      I am so fed up with the currency union issue, I am now in favour of keeping the pound informally for as short a time as possible and then have our own currency.

      As some posters have suggested before, maybe that is the SNP plan.

    114. manandboy says:

      BBC rebranding exercise before Sunday protest ?

    115. The Dog says:

      Congrats to the Sun for at least putting some effort into creating balance. If only the BBC would take note.

      We’ve just watched the BBC’s Scotland 2014 from Tue and Wed night.

      Never again.

      Danny Alexander was given a free ride to put forward his case and when the slot finished the programme moved on.

      Leaving aside the soft nature of the interview, where we watched Sarah Smith “feed” leading material to DA (in our opinion), there was no follow up afterwards and the programme moved on to give us a snapshot of the BBC news website from Nottingam and Devon (followed with a pic and story about Tony Blair).

      Contrast that with Wed night. SS went to Bute House to interview the First Minister. Fair enough but what do we get immediately afterwards? Cue a follow-on slot with a commentator discussing both interviews from Tue and Wed.

      Very clever BBC. Create “balance” by having a go at both parties but only do it immediately after viewers have watched the First Minister being interviewed and one full evening after DA has had an open forum to punt his views.

      As an aside, we were particularly infuriated by this supplementary commentator telling the nation that the Scottish govt have been using “their own figures” (quote) to illustrate potential oil revenues when as anyone who can read and use the interweb knows, they have consistently used a median figure taken from five separate forecasts from a variety of forecasters (including DECC and the OBR).

      Anyhoo, you cannae fault their skill at creating a defendable fallback position of “balance” whilst pushing what is increasingly looking like a partial policy standpoint.

      The Cat and I have now made a solemn pact: If any one of us wants to watch this drivel again we’ll do so after a visit to the divorce courts.

    116. Grouse Beater says:

      Flim Flam Man says: the Governor of the BofE talked about it.

      He did.

      And he got annoyed during the subsequent Q&A session when journalists tried to misinterpret him, or at least, only saw things through the prism of Westminster’s interests.

      I agree with you other assessment.

    117. Les Wilson says:

      We need to get all these links into a flyer, with short punch descriptions. That MIGHT effect the naysayers.

    118. Les Wilson says:

      Sorry, previous post, referred to NHS privatisation.

    119. Barney Thomson says:

      NHS privatisation –

      They were warned!

    120. cynicalHighlander says:



    121. Grouse Beater says:

      Edinburgh Trams: The Edinburgh tram story is trundling around on the news,but who started the tram programme off? There is no mention of who messed it up. Just wondering.

      It was a one-off grant explicitly for a single project; it could not be used spread over a number of projects.

      The Greens held the balance of power in our parliament the then SNP coalition unable to reject the idea. The Green demanded the project or they would refuse to endorse Scotland’s budget unless the administration agreed to a tram system for the capital.

      For information: Electric coachs operated successfully in Los Angeles for a year before the offer of grant. A top level electric coach costs £1 million. Edinburgh could have had 700 for the same money.

      At that time Edinburgh City council was Labour-Lib-Dem dominated. The SNP group voted against the introduction of trams.

    122. Walter Scott says:

      It’s come to something indeed when we praise the Sun. It’s because we’ve been starved of the oxygen of an even handed press for so long & not just since the independence debate started. Now the Sun has said it will act as referee, which has to be welcomed because the whole apparatus of the state & all the press & big business has been against Yes. We need whatever help we can get. If it means getting a little help from the Sun, so be it. More Scots read the Sun than the Scotsman, Herald, P&J & Record put together. It’s done more good with one column than the pompous Herald with their hollow promise to back Yes.

    123. Croompenstein says:

      I don’t understand the snap decision to protest at PQ tomorrow. I can’t make it as I have previous commitment but I also don’t understand why they are asking people to turn up with a Sunday Herald.

      This could have been organised better and given people a few weeks advance notice and the free advertisement for the paper doesn’t sit too well with me.

    124. Pierre says:

      NHS Privatisation
      Some helpful? info on this site: TheGreenBenches [at] hotmail [dot] com
      showing what is happening to the NHS in England.

    125. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Our biggest enemies are the Daily Mail and the Daily Express and I’m sure that at least half of the 460,000 English in Scotland buy one of them daily. They are read also by a silly section of society that doesn’t understand how thick they are and think they are a little better than the rest of us and by people who have always bought them, many of whom are actually YES supporters despite the daily portion of utterly incoherent political pish they deal up.

      Everybody knows Record supports Labour and this diminishes its anti independence stuff( and it has given us some quite good stuff recently). The Sun has been moving towards us for some time but its options are still open.

      Recorded a great response today. “You didn’t mind voting for the people in UK who illegally invaded Iraq killing hundreds and thousands of innocent women and children but you wont vote YES because you don’t like Alex Salmond’s eyebrows? Really?”

    126. Brian Powell says:

      The Labour party in Scotland stand totally condemned over their ‘best of both worlds’ mantra aimed at ordinary people who won’t know the full story.

      They are so blinded by not wanting to do anything that appears to help the independence stance that they lie about how we re somehow protected in Scotland because of devolved powers. Very few understand how limited those powers are and how easily these are affected by the policies of Westminster.

      Many people cannot understand how our Health Service could in a short time be affected by cuts implemented by Westminster, along with other services.

      Labour ignore this simply to keep the possibility of having Labour back in power; the interests of the voters come along way behind that.

      To any voter who waits for Labour back in, ask then, what about the next time or the time after that when the Conservatives get back in?

    127. cynicalHighlander says:


      If it is drawn out over a period of time it gives the establishment time to make contingencies to counter any demo whereas snap demos can catch them off guard. All it takes the BBC to do is inform the polis that there is suspect package within the building area and lock down, Blair Bush epitaph.

    128. seanair says:

      Grouse Beater
      I keep a copy of a letter written to the Scotsman by Alex Orr.
      The key points are that the Scottish Parliament passed Tram Bills in 2006 (Lab/lLib),with SNPopposed. After SNP formed a minority Government in 2007 they were still opposed to the trams, but in June 2007 MSPs voted for pressing ahead with the trams, with 81 votes for and 47 against (all SNP). In the vote in Edinburgh Council all 12 SNP Councillors voted against.
      Lib, Lab,Con don’t like to be reminded that it was their project, presumably the Greens too.
      But don’t let them forget.

    129. msean says:

      Thanks for the info Grouse Beater, didn’t know about the electric coaches though.

    130. Josef O Luain says:

      My guess is that the Sun has been doing its homework and has decided, for purely commercial reasons, to take its foot off the No-peddle. This decision is not at all surprising given what greets the casual visitor to any of the No crowds’sites. Not to mention the negativity and baseless nonsense coming from the mouths of those charged with making the case for a No vote.

      Instead of coming out for Yes I suspect the Sun will navigate a balanced/neutral-ish course leading up to September. Isn’t that what we’ve been demanding all along

      O/T I saw one of the Yes Campaign’s new ads today in Pollok. It was sited on the side of a busted-up public phone-booth,it was the one about child-poverty. I was both impressed and delighted. Hard-hitting stuff, based on real facts and figures.

    131. Croompenstein says:

      @RenateJ – That has made me spew..

      But there we have it this is why we must break free..

      Much will depend on London’s goodwill

      Scotland should win enough freedom from the UK to embark on an exciting new era. The pity is that it takes a stupid referendum to force London to concede it

    132. BuckieBraes says:

      I see there that the unionist parties are now ‘pledging’ Devo-Max. News to me!

      Simon Jenkins – clearly another of the chattering class who doesn’t know nearly as much as he ought where Scotland’s concerned. But he’s fair awa wi himself!

    133. cynicalHighlander says:

      Mark Coburn looking to help.

    134. Defo says:

      Croompenstein says:
      31 May, 2014 at 9:21 pm
      I don’t understand the snap decision to protest at PQ tomorrow. I can’t make it as I have previous commitment but I also don’t understand why they are asking people to turn up with a Sunday Herald.

      Tomorrows Herald headline story maybe ?

    135. Croompenstein says:

      @Defo – This is where Marcia usually comes in.. 🙂

    136. TJenny says:

      Defo – ‘Tomorrows Herald headline story maybe ?’, no doubt Marcia will be along in a bit posting tomorrow’s SH front page. 🙂

    137. TJenny says:

      Croompenstein – just pipped me to the post.

    138. cynicalHighlander says:


      Tomorrows Herald headline story maybe ?

      Now that would be wonderful especially with Headlines in the morn.

    139. Alex Gallacher says:

      jon esquierdo, how do you get across to those with no brain cell. Today I had a lady who had been a member of the labour party all her life, I argued with her then I used the iron bru analogy, you may come from a long line of fannies don’t bring you kid up to be one, she burst out laughing, I gave her wings over Scotland guaranteed she votes yes now.

    140. Nana Smith says:

      The protest tomorrow and bringing along a copy of the sunday herald may just be a way of highlighting the newspaper is being open to debate rather than the no & biased stance from the bbc.

      Maybe I’m wrong,will wait & see tomorrows headlines.

    141. Marcia says:

      Patience folks.

    142. Defo says:

      Croompenstein & T Jenny.. Ta, I should have waited.
      Tomorrows headline is bound to be the sad news from the borders now, but hopefully there’s a demolition of the BBC or something as second billing.

    143. X_Sticks says:

      Can’t help but agree completely with your analysis Rev. A pretty fair roundup of the bullet points that we need to get across to people. I was discussing something similar with Sneeky Boy recently. Handy information aid for canvassing. A printable version would be good.

      Damn, I’ve not been able to make it to any of the bbc protests, and I won’t make this as well. What Croompenstein said, more notice I might have made it. I hope it gets a good turnout, but at such short notice I’m concerned it won’t. Those who can should get it out there on twitter and facebook to raise the profile.

      @Brian Powell
      Big thanks for the Aye Right leaflets and just in time for a day on the YesMobile at Ellon tomorrow. I’ll drop you an email..

    144. Defo says:

      Is throwing the dummy out of the pram a recognised political strategy ?

      (Reuters) – British Prime Minister David Cameron has warned he would no longer be able to guarantee that Britain would remain a member of the European Union if European leaders elect Jean-Claude Juncker as European Commission chief, Germany’s Spiegel said.

    145. Elliot Bulmer says:

      What’s disappointing about this, and about so many YES presentations I’ve attended, is that they are arguing on the No-side’s ground; it’s all about ‘can we afford it’. The real debate is on the other side: how a Scottish state can better serve the people of Scotland than the UK has done.

    146. Thepnr says:

      Can’t help agreeing it’s a bit late notice for a demonstration at PQ. Shit I read absolutely everything going on the net about Independence and this is the first I’ve heard.

      OK maybe a group wnating it over and done with before the objections are heard but for me a properly planned and notified protest may have been far more effective.

      This one may ever be covered by PQ as “A small amount of Cybernats demonstrated today outside BBC headquarters”

      If it was meant to have that result lets hope the opposite ensues and even though it’s late thousands turn up.

    147. Mary Bruce says:

      OOOhh, you guys were right about the Sunday Herald covering BBC Bias, looks like they have a story…

    148. Grouse Beater says:

      M Sean says: Thanks for the info Grouse Beater, didn’t know about the electric coaches though.

      You’re welcome.

      LA electric coaches are are marvel.

      They can be recharged in the depot at night or various stops en route, 80 miles on one top up – there’s a battery connector on the roof. It’s raised to meet the booster pad above. Like any other vehicle they can go where they like, not stuck to rails.

      And like all buses – $1 USD take you any length in LA – the Big Blue Bus have platforms that can be lowered for non-ambulant, and cycle racks on the nose. Cool.

      I love to take an LA bus – all human life is there.

      A Mexican took a seat carrying two huge bulging black plastic bin bags. One burst. Chicken feathers filled the air and drifted like snowflakes into every nook and cranny. The African-American driver stopped the bus. Bus drivers are very proud of their “Big Blue Bus.”

      “Who da hell brings chickin’ feathers on a bus? Goddamit!”

      “Me,” said the Latino, doing his best to gather them up.

      “I stuff throw cushions, an’ if a hears any more from you, Senor El Mouth, a-gonna stuff you with feathers too!”

      “You got some finger lickin’ goddam cheek, retorted the driver. “Get da hell offa ma bus before I kick you off!”

      The Latino duly exited shouting oaths back at the driver.

      The rest of us were left laughing hysterically.

    149. TJenny says:

      Mary Bruce – such a tease. 🙂

    150. Mary Bruce says:

      TJenny: It’s the Sunday Herald teasing us with their micro-headline tweets, “Questions raised over BBC Bias.” That’s it.

      And apparently our new UKIP msp says he’ll overturn a yes vote. LOL, what an ego.

    151. TJenny says:

      Mary Bruce – not new MSP, nooooooooooo, they’re no in Holyrood yet are they? 🙁

    152. Mary Bruce says:

      Sorry TJenny, it’s getting late. MEP. Can’t wait to see him try, that should be a laugh come September.

    153. Marcia says:

      Sunday Herald front page:

      some of the articles in the SH;

      Newsnight’s Jeremy Paxman: ‘There is a head of steam in Scotland for hating the English’ – report and reaction in tomorrow’s paper.

      Our #indyref special: questions raised over BBC bias, Common_Weal manifesto for a better Scotland; Ukip Scots MEP ‘I’ll overturn Yes vote’

      More in our #indyref special: public bodies give £500k taxpayer cash to CBI; Tories unveil radical new Devo tax plan; the Bus Party is back.

      Commonwealth Games special: Top scientist fly in to wipe out doping; plus, 60% of Scots athletes vitamin D deficient due to lack of sunlight

      Scots medical conference cancelled due to Nestle sponsorship.

      In tomorrow’s paper – the poverty crisis gripping rural Scotland.

    154. CameronB Brodie says:

      How about a permanent demo, all the way up to the vote? It was done before, outside St. Andrew’s House.

    155. FlimFlamMan says:

      Been trying to post responses since a little after 8pm; lets try one at a time…

      @Grouse Beater

      He did.

      And he got annoyed during the subsequent Q&A session when journalists tried to misinterpret him, or at least, only saw things through the prism of Westminster’s interests.

      Yep, he did. Maybe he was just shocked, shocked, at seeing British journalists engaging is such activity.

      I agree with you other assessment.

      Cheers, I’m glad someone does 🙂

    156. Croompenstein says:

      @Marcia – You never let us down 🙂

      What is it with Scots hating English, I have travelled this island and of the English people I know or have met most are some of the kindest, lovliest people I have ever met. I have met a few arseholes but then again I have met a few Scottish arseholes as well.

    157. FlimFlamMan says:

      Been trying to comment since 8, no joy, trying one at a time…

      @Liquid Lenny

      Norway runs consistent government surpluses, not deficits, but issues debt anyway. That may simply be down to innocent accounting choices, or it may be less wholesome. I don’t know, but other countries have ‘form’.

      Australia also issued debt in the ’90s when they ran gov. surpluses. When they first went into surplus they stopped debt issuance, but the financial sector started whining about their loss of guaranteed interest income, so the Government started issuing debt again.

      Why does the financial sector deserve guaranteed interest income? I guess they’re special.

    158. Grouse Beater says:

      Flim Flam Man says: Yep, he did. Maybe he was just shocked, shocked, at seeing British journalists engaging is such activity.

      You’re right. I think he was exactly as you describe, taken aback at the audacity of their arrogance. He had explained himself in clinical accuracy yet here they were trying to tell him he had said something quite different.

    159. clochoderic says:


      Some serious SLAB kremlinology deciphering needed for this curious ode to Jola by everyone’s favourite tame tim Kevin McKenna in the Observer.

    160. Onwards says:

      @Elliot Bulmer,

      That’s a good point – it’s about more than just affordability.

      The biggest issue of all is democracy.
      Being able to get the government and policies that people in Scotland vote for.

      International visibility would be greatly increased also.
      I don’t hear that argument much.
      Huge tourism boost.

      More powers to attract investment.
      The rest of Britain is just becoming a feeder zone for an ever expanding London Megacity.
      HS2 will accelerate that process.

      Rupert Murdoch previously tweeted ‘Let Scotland go and compete’..

    161. Grouse Beater says:

      OT Says: Some serious SLAB kremlinology deciphering needed for this curious ode to Jola by everyone’s favourite tame tim Kevin McKenna in the Observer

      Not one of his best efforts – rather muddled attempt to conjoin the Kirk’s spurious call for reconciliation and group hugs after the Referendum result is in, with Labour Lamont’s roles to heal the wounds of the multitude when time calls.

      Alas, he seems not to understand the obvious quality she lacks completely is statesmanship.

    162. CameronB Brodie says:

      The last time I tried to understand where Kevin McKenna is coming from, or hoping to get to, I got a headache. Confused, confusing and a bit pointless, IMO.

      I reckon GCHQ are slipping though, as I posted this yesterday. Now, who would you put your money on? A political hack or a Research Fellow at the University of Stirling, who’s research interests include political parties, public attitudes and constitutional change in the UK.

      Better Together’s campaign creates a strategic dilemma for Scottish Labour

    163. Betty Boop says:

      @ Croompenstein
      31 May 2014, 6.34pm

      The problem is I couldn’t cite any examples of the privatisation in England…help

      How about this list of NHS contracts offered for tender, Dec 13- May 14, amounting to £16.6:

      or just send the guy to Youtube and tell him to search for Dr Philippa Whitford and he can watch her explain what is happening in NHS England.

    164. Lesley-Anne says:

      M Sean and Grouse Beater I think you might find this site rather interesting regarding electric buses.

    165. Paula Rose says:

      @ Marcia 11;32 – wot like them Jeremies?

    166. Grouse Beater says:

      Lesley Anne says: Grouse Beater I think you might find this site rather interesting regarding electric buses.

      Great site, LA. Many thanks!

    167. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Paula Rose –

      What’s the difference between Jeremy Paxman and Jeremy Clarkson?

      No, seriously, nae punchline – what is the fucking difference?

    168. Thoughts are with all those affected by the crashes in the Jim Clark rally in the Borders.

      However, as one of those who stays in a house on a narrow country road, past which these cars zoomed, I must say accidents were waiting to happen. I was appalled by the complete lack of any safety for those watching — no barriers, nothing. People were standing in clusters in gateways. If a child had been on the road it wouldn’t have had a chance. In fact, I suspect the first accident may have occurred not far from where I stay.

      Nor was property protected. We had to remain inside or risk our lives. In a village with many youngsters and elderly people this was not a wise route. Our permission was never asked, but we will certainly be making our views heard.

      My husband asked a marshall about the race timing he had to look up the information. In a thirty mile limit, on a country road with property on the roadside, the speed limit was ignored, and normal driving practice and rules abandoned. And we were subjected to hours of noise and fumes. All in the name of sport.

      That spectators were killed and injured is a tragedy…but, from what I saw this afternoon, sadly not a surprise.

    169. Grouse Beater says:

      Brotherhood says: What’s the difference between Jeremy Paxman and Jeremy Clarkson?

      One who only ever wear jeans lives on the Isle of Mann and is a “prize Bellend” – James May. The other one who only ever wears suit and tie thinks Robert Burns “wrote sentimental doggerel.” Both are agreed, the Scots are bare arsed savages without a trace of humour. Which makes both arrogant Englishmen in the traditional mould.

    170. Lesley-Anne says:

      Grouse Beater says:

      Lesley Anne says: Grouse Beater I think you might find this site rather interesting regarding electric buses.

      Great site, LA. Many thanks!

      I was actually looking for another site I had seen many moons ago but can’t find it. I think it may also have been about BYD. The site had a video, similar to the videos in the site I linked to about running the electric bus. Still this site does the trick, I think. 😉

      I also found these which may be of interest to you as well GB. 🙂

    171. Grouse Beater says:

      Ta L-A.

    172. Lesley-Anne says:

      Glad to be of service GB. 😛

    173. Grouse Beater says:

      And with that fair adieu, dear lady, I retire abed.

    174. Grouse Beater says:

      Little White Rose of Scotland – grousebeater.wordpress

    175. Gizmo says:

      This is the Sun warming up to Independence, they will back what they believe is a) popular and b) likely to win – as they want to appear on the pulse and, more importantly, pretend they shaped public opinion and are, by extension, relevant.

      It’s all about sales. But should they declare for YES it will be a boost irrespective of my thoughts on the quality of their paper and a major hint that we are going to prevail.

      Watch this space.

    176. Seasick Dave says:

      I see that Scotland on Sunday are claiming that Scottish suppliers will no longer be able to use the British flag on their goods which will affect demand from England.

      I wasn’t aware that Scotland was leaving the island of Great Britain after Independence.

      You learn something new every day.

    177. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T

      Just I case any of you missed it – shameless plug for the YesMobile at Ellon Gala today.

      I’ll be there if anyone wants to come along and visit. Free tea & coffee and all things Yes.

    178. joe kane says:

      Thanks to Defo for that Kurds for Yes info.

      An interesting footnote to Kurd-Scottish relation is that the late, great Scottish mountaineer, writer and broadcaster Tom Weir was a big supporter of Kurdish national self-determination and independence. Tom went on a mountain expedition in the 1950s amongst the Kurd mountains and became a convinced supporter of Kurdish nationalism. He writes about it one of his books though I can’t recall which one it is.

    179. john king says:

      Just because they’re not panning our windows in doesn’t make them our bestest fwends.

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t know if anyone will remember me suggesting that housing policy in the UK, appeared to be directed towards propping up the value of sterling (£)? While I am at it, I think I also suggested that greenbelt policy was not necessarily appropriate to Scotland’s needs. Well, here is what the LSE’s Professor Emeritus of Economic Geography has to say on these matters.

      This is what explains the crisis of housing affordability: we have a longstanding and endemic crisis of housing supply – and it is caused primarily by policies that intentionally constrain the supply of housing land. It is not surprising to find that house prices increased by a factor of 3.36 from the start of 1998 to late 2013 in Britain as a whole and by a factor of 4.24 over the same period in London.

      @Sarah Boyack
      Are you really down with ‘One Nation’ British Labour’s desire to supercharge the UK’s highly centralised oligarchical collectivism (Pulling & Sharing)? Does “Powers For A Purpose” not scream Ingsoc to you? Would you not agree that the RTPI is Scotland’s Fabian jailor?

      P.S. I think I have also suggested that housing is both a noun and a verb.

      P.P.S. Transport interventions stimulate economic development. Scotland is paying to give the heart of England, the most serious infrastructure upgrade in British history (HS2).

    181. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.P.P.S The original support for Greenbelts did not come from socialist Greens (they hadn’t been invented yet), it came from Home Counties Tory types.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      This time travel is fun. Here is Christine Whitehead OBE, (professor of housing economics at the LSE), with an assessment of Ed Miliband’s proposals to sort it all out. One topic I was a little surprised wasn’t even mentioned, was HOUSING SUPPLY. Make of that what you will.

      Fiddling whilst Rome burns?

      Miliband’s proposals: Old fashioned rent control or a better operating market?

    183. CameronB Brodie says:

      For anyone interested in looking into the housing issue more, this might be a useful reading list. Perhaps an indication of a broken system not-fit-for-purpose? Should they be coordinated?

      They find that net housing income/ resources
      reduce poverty overall in England and the Netherlands and do so because they are less evenly distributed than is disposable income. Moreover, ‘housing poverty’ affects mostly those people who are not income poor, leading the authors to conclude that housing systems and welfare systems operate with an unexpectedly high level of independence from one another.

      Housing Studies
      Volume 26, Issue 7-8, 2011

    184. Wired of Hermiston says:

      The Scottish Sun sells roughly 270,000 copies a day. It has consistently provided the most balanced coverage of the referendum. I find it quite baffling that this is so rarely mentioned, given that it outsells the Scotsman and Herald by a factor of 10. Snobbery, perhaps.

    185. Wired of Hermiston says:

      And for the record it DOES do this kind of stuff every day!

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Last one on housing. Remember, London has more voters than Scotland.

      The rapid growth in London’s private rented sector and what it means for our housing system

    187. CameronB Brodie says:

      Passenger – Let Her Go

    188. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Wee Things 🙂

    189. iam votingyes says:

      Seasick Dave says:
      31 May, 2014 at 1:28 pm


      Due to uncertainty over how many teeth will be lost in an independent Scotland caused by increasingly poor diet, the Tooth Fairy will no longer operate north of the heavily fortified border.

      Accompanied by Johann Lamont, the Tooth Fairy said, “Withoot Westminster subsidies, ah’ll no be able to afford to pay for aw they rotten teeth. Plus, whit money would ah use?”

      The tooth fairy is an evil capitalist. She gives money to kids for their milk teeth to encourage them to buy and eat more sweets so that their second teeth fall out. She then uses all the teeth she’s collected to make dentures and sell them back, at a huge mark up, to the toothless adults she caused in the first place. don’t trust the tooth fairy.

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      Forgot to mention that, IMO, one of the probable factors producing the localised increase in private rented accommodation highlighted by Figure 1 in, is the economic development and activity stimulated by the London Docklands Light Rail. I can’t remember if the jury is fully out on the effects of the London Docklands Development Corporation, but I think most of the economic ‘growth’ was attracted from elsewhere. This process is often called “creative destruction” or “Schumpeter’s Gale”.

      I would expect HS2 will have a similar but more pronounced effect. So where is Scotland’s moral obligation to continue supporting foreign competition?

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks for the new toy Macart. 🙂

    192. TYRAN says:

      @seasick dave

      Precisely. BT and their propaganda video piece state “We don’t have to leave the UK to be Scottish”.

      Likewise we don’t have to stay in the UK to be British.

      The UK like to claim exclusive ownership of British.

      Whereas, the UK should be Ukish.

    193. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The Scottish Sun sells roughly 270,000 copies a day. It has consistently provided the most balanced coverage of the referendum. I find it quite baffling that this is so rarely mentioned, given that it outsells the Scotsman and Herald by a factor of 10. Snobbery, perhaps.”

      Not snobbery, a paywall that makes it pointless linking to its stories because hardly anyone will be able to read them. And it sells 248,000 copies a day.

    194. Brian says:

      As a Northern Irish reader of your web site
      for many months I congratulate you on a most honest
      and reliable appraisal of the current topics and
      comments made by the English and Scottish politicians
      especially in relation to the current referendum
      Truthfulness is expressed .You are providing an excellent service to all your readers.
      Thank you and long may itcontinue

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