The way time flies
Can this really be six and a half years ago?
We suddenly feel very old.
Perhaps Ian Blackford does too, hence this unfortunate Freudian slip.
Even allowing for the Prime/First Minister gaffe, we’re reasonably sure that it’s NOT the role of SNP MPs at Westminster to “support the government”. If it’s the UK government they’re meant to oppose it, and if it’s the Scottish Government then it’s none of their business. They’re there to cause trouble for London, not to cheerlead for Edinburgh.
But a particular idea keeps popping up in all the media coverage of the current turmoil in the SNP Westminster group – coverage which is of course primarily driven and informed by leaks from within the group – and it’s a troubling one.
Because the entire PURPOSE of an SNP MP is to lose their job. It used to be one of the key arguments made by this site, way back in the days when Unionists were the biggest obstacles to independence, that Scottish Labour MPs – a term which was still a plural back in 2014 – opposed the concept because they were desperate to hold onto their cushy jobs and fat wage packets and expense accounts and juicy pensions no matter the consequences to Scotland, while SNP MPs were creatures of a higher principle, seeking election only in order to make themselves redundant.
God forgive us, we actually believed it. But sadly those days are long past now, and Scotland has simply replaced a Labour generation of gravy-train careerists with an SNP one. It’s manifestly clear that the likes of Blackford, Pete Wishart, Alyn Smith, Stewart McDonald, John Nicolson, Anne McLaughlin and far too many more in the Pension Posse simply LOVE the glamorous London life of a member of the Mother Of Parliaments and are in absolutely no rush to give it up.
It’s hard to say which of the two Parliamentary cohorts are now the most terrified of actually bringing about a second independence vote, even though hardly any of those at Holyrood would be risking their own livelihoods in a plebiscite election. We can only assume they mostly fear the First Minister’s wrath, it being much closer and more immediate to those in Edinburgh.
But in the heady atmosphere of six and a half years ago, after Scotland had sent 56 MPs to Westminster to settle up, few of us dreamed just how comfortably, or for how long, they would settle down.
6.5 years of stagnation, or even retrograde movement. I still find it absurd that so many N’SNP supporters remain blind to the facts. Words are cheap, Where’s the Action.
I admit I used to be a Nicola fan when she first took on the mantle of leadership. But too many false dawns and too many “promises” or were they “pledges’? have fallen by the wayside as the blinds fell from my eyes.
The Independence movement needs to find its way once again which doesn’t mean binding it to any one political party.
Time to reset as time is running out
With their mandate, it’s not even what they can do at Westminster, but what they could be doing beyond Westminster, taking Scotland’s plight to the International Community as elected Scottish Politicians trying to defend Scotland’s Claim of Right, Constitutional sovereignty, from colonial encroachment.
All that heavy lifting has been left to SALVO and Liberation.Scot
Devolusionists gonna devolutionise.
Better a big fish in a wee pond in Holyrood, or having a guaranteed sinecure on the gravy train in Westminster while loudly complaining you’re there to “settle up not settle in” year after year, after year.
I think if I were an SNP Westminster MP I’d probably be laughing at the prospect of a de facto referendum in a GE.
What seems most likely is that the SNP would win a huge chunk of seats but fall short of the 50% threshold, so you could just keep the gravy train rolling another 5 years without actually needing to do very much other than shout “Tories bad” every so often.
If a lot of SNP MPs lose their seats in a de facto referendum then it means Scotland is a long way from wanting independence, in which case they are essentially redundant anyway.
@solarflare
Nobody will be shouting “Tories bad” after the next GE, as it’s Labour’s turn.
Given that most of the MSM is firmly behind Labour too, it may be several years before any shouts of “Labour bad” get the oxygen of publicity.
Regarding the current SNP infighting. It makes total sense to me that WM MPs should favour a HR plebiscite, as it leaves their sinecures safe.
I wonder if the HR MSPs are really terrified of having a HR plebiscite? Strikes me they are simply reluctant to go through all the faff, disruption and bother.
> Because the entire PURPOSE of an SNP MP is to lose their job.
This, right here.
…and yet SNP loyalists such as Gordon Ross, Lesley Riddoch and the cult-like posters on WeeGingerDug will denounce all of this as unionist mischief-making.
P.S Most WeeGingerDug posters prefer using a Westminster election rather than a Holyrood election as a de-facto referendum. This is what you’re up against.
Add Chris Law and Angela Crawley. Never once heard either speak during PMQs although Law, the castle owner, is very fond of bobbing up and down doing a very good meerkat impression.
I used to listen to the Great British SNP promises for hope, then for the laughs. Now for the sake of my sanity I ignore them. On the plus side my bro will owe me £100 when he finally concedes there will be no referendum in ’23. Every cloud…
Yes although it’s not even spelt out there, with room for the implication that ‘they are just concerned that they would lose if the unionists in some seats got behind one candidate’, it’s plain that some would be raging that their tickets on the gravy bus might be endangered *whether we got 50+1% of the vote or not*.
Incidentally, I do wonder whether some list-dwellers at Holyrood might be worried for a similar reason – do some of the Holyrood ‘big guns’ reside in unionist-majority seats and does that increase the likelihood that they could lose their constituency seats if the constituency vote was used as the plebiscite?
Would there then be a rush by the big guns to protect themselves by elbowing out some of those promised a reward via a high-list ranking for next time (or even some who were shepherded via the list this time)? Could this be shaping Sturgeon’s seeming determination to use a Westminster vote? More of her ‘favourites’ impacted by Holyrood results?
My constituency SNP at the selection hustings gave two solemn promises.
The first was that he would work tirelessly for independence.
The second that he would only be down in Westminster until they delivered independence.
And now he’s on all kinds of UK committees, has junketed abroad on numerous international trips, celebrated British troops a road, bought a new house, moved out of the constituency.
And he gravely is all so typical of the troughers that we sent to Westminster.
Can a wee diddy administrator dictate to MPs?
Don’t they trump her authority in the pecking order of power?
The title tattler needs to grow a pair imo. They’re obviously feart of her too & losing thier pay packet. But would they really? Wouldn’t they still keep thier seat as an independent? Others do.
It’s a sickener right enough but the lucrative lifestyle always gets them in the end.
“…way back in the days when Unionists were the biggest obstacles to independence…”. Yep.
The SNP are now the Political wing of Stonewall. The Party core value is to promote the Cult via every branch of SG influence. She is determined that her legacy will be remembered.
That legacy: stealing part of Finland’s childcare policy and delivering GRA.
The UN couldn’t possibly deny her a key role after that! Speaking tours in the USA will be plan B. She doesn’t mind a plan B for HER future.
More jam today and tomorrow from the nasty gender bender defender and lunatic Sturgeon. With her and the woko-haram SNP nothing will ever happen, eight odd years of anglo tyranny aka brexit and sod all from the wokist blockader.
Willie @ 12:47pm:
“The second that he would only be down in Westminster until they delivered independence.”
I have no idea if this is exact phrasing but one can see how whoever it is might say “well, we haven’t delivered it so I am still down there”.
It’s nice when you can set yourself open-ended tasks and appear not to be doing so.
Following the UKSC ruling, that denies Scotland’s people democracy, there should be no Scots MPs at WM. They should have been withdrawn permanently.
Scots who say they believe the people of Scotland are sovereign should not be swearing Charles III is sovereign.
Oaths of allegiance should be to the sovereign people of Scotland, not to the UK’s / England’s monarchy / Crown.
Using an election as a referendum means no SNP MPs being elected to WM: the purpose of a referendum would be to allow a vote on independence, not to elect constituency MPs.
Of course, it’s all a sham. The SNP MPs under every leader have always upheld England’s Crown in Parliament sovereignty, not the sovereignty of the people of Scotland. So, the SNP won’t defy the Crown, when told no to independence.
Indy is mentioned as the carrot to get voters to re-elect SNP MPs.
The SNP will also be able to say the money spent on getting MPs re-lected is indyref spending.
I have not said much over the past few weeks due to my mum passing away,
But it could just as well been a year or so,
Its the same rhetoric about the same groups, this is tunnel vision and holding us back,
The party that is working and paid for by the other side, in a devolved government legislated for also by the other side.
There is no reason in my mind why we can not move forward with the Scottish constitution, Scottish sovereignty and acknowledge the power of our own selfs before needing to be recognised by other countries.
The constant pressure of viewing a political party as the only problem to our independence is wrong.
I feel we are guided to look down a narrow tunnel of small talk by bigger fish than a sturgeon.
No solution will come from simply rearranging this party, as the snp are merely puppets to larger sharks in the ocean.
The parliament we have in Scotland is englands. and legislated so.
The parliament we have in Scotland stops any parties successfully working for Scots.
Anyone that works within it is working under oath for the the union because of the Scotland act controlling Scottish politics and elections,
The issue that is stopping us is NOT having our own parliament,
Yes, I think it’s fairly safe to say that the SNP MPs don’t want to give up their lucrative spot at the taxpayer’s trough, Scotland and what happens to its people with regards to independence comes a very distant second to them.
What’s even more galling is the SNPs MSPs of whom we elected (countless mandates) to get us out of this now prison of a union aren’t pushing for a Holyrood election. Sturgeon the Judas has badly betrayed us, and her treacherous, spineless and gutless MSPs have, like the Three Wise Monkey’s they are, kept their heads down and mouths shut, and their snouts pressed deeply into the Scottish taxpayer’s trough, they did all through Brexit and they’ve continued right up all through 2022 doing it and they will continue to backstab Scotland for as long as we elect these people who are of a low moral character to Holyrood.
What we can look forward to over the next two hellish years, is more grandstanding on independence from Sturgeon the Judas and her backstabbing MSPs, and the exact same from the SNPs Westminster MPs, in reality these vile people that now make up the SNP, are only interested in keeping their lucrative jobs, independence isn’t on the menu.
After the two further years as prisoners of this union in which God only knows how much more of Scotland’s assets are stolen by the English government the GE will come and go just like Brexit did, with the Betrayer and her MSPs/MPs railing a wee bit at whoever is PM on Scotland’s right blah blah blah, and then it will be back to business as usual.
We need to vote these charlatans out at every opportunity there’s no route to independence via the SNP that day has come and gone, building up Alba over the next two-years and beyond appears to be the way, unless Salvo/Liberation comes up with something.
Good piece from Mandy Rhodes in Holyrood Magazine:
“Has Nicola Sturgeon finally woken up to the dangers of self-ID?”
So, hurrah, to the bravery of the woman who heckled the first minister. And yes, it was uncomfortable to watch a room full of self-proclaimed feminists twiddling their pens, looking the other way, and refusing to acknowledge a fellow traveller who was angry and who was standing up for women and for trans rights.
Bravo Many Rhodes!
https://archive.ph/IxAfO
“Fear of the First Ministers Wrath.”
Bang on the nail with this comment. Nobody in either Parliament dare say anything before considering how Nicola Would react. The SNP have chosen a monster as a leader and are too scared to act as real politicians by replacing her.
They have all allowed themselves to be controlled and dictated to rather than make a stand against her lunatic policies and futile so-called strategy for independence.
The squeaking dissenters in Westminster will have their brutal comeuppance and the next sycophantic coward will be ‘elected’ i.e. chosen by Sturgeon.
It needs a combined effort to get rid of her, and there is no sign of that from the chicken-livered bunch of parasites at Holyrood.
Meanwhile, the people can’t or won’t see what she is or what has done, and is still doing. Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves , said Robert Kennedy.
Apply this to Scotland, and it shows the depths to which Society has sunk in continuing to champion Nicola Sturgeon
“Colin The Keelie says:
Following the UKSC ruling, that denies Scotland’s people democracy, there should be no Scots MPs at WM. They should have been withdrawn permanently.”
Exactly Colin by their actions we shall know them, any real indy minded MP would’ve walked out never to return to the HoC on hearing the UKSC outcome.
Not only that any real indy minded FM would’ve appeared on tv right after the UKSC determination and said right we’re holding a snap election at Holyrood with independence in mind.
It says a lot about the FM and her MPs that, neither event happened, and will never happen with Sturgeon as FM, frankly there’s not a SNP MSP at Holyrood right now that has the moral fibre to be FM, and do the right thing, all the half-decent ones jumped ship to Alba, and now it’s only the dregs, the dross that’s left at Holyrood.
Willie says:
4 December, 2022 at 12:47 pm
My constituency SNP at the selection hustings gave two solemn promises.
Please name him, Willie
Blackford had to go for reasons we don’t know yet.
I assume someone was going to stand against him that Sturgeon didnt like, so at first she supported Blackford but then had to give in.
She has now got her ally Alison Thewliss to put her name forward, AT, is another Nikla acolyte and will do NSs bidding.
I fail to understand why they’re all so scared of her, I know the Whips blackbook must be bursting at the seems but surely they all have stuff on her as well
Who could forget Thewliss, Blackford and Co walking out when a real indy minded MP (Kenny MacAskill) stood up to really defend Scotland and its people in the HoC.
Thewliss, Blackford and Co made sure they bowed to the Speaker on scurrying out. SNP MPs are a bunch of treacherous shits, who’ll need to be dragged kicking and screaming from the HoC.
There is no route to indy via the SNP.
https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1584987495921750016
Didn’t Alba recently vote they’d not take thier elected seats at WM?
They’d instead work direct in Scotland to bring about its sole aim. That of course is up to change once elected BUT what we need to do as an electorate is hold thier feet to the fire. One term or yer out! No if’s, no buts. We’ve fell head first into the same old Labour trap ..maybees this time..okay maybees next time.
It’s nipped in the bud early doors & all pro indy parties take a stand – no more ‘Only the SNP can…’ When obviously they can’t & that’s just to keep the same hamster wheel turning while they go unchecked in parly passing all kinds of shit & swelling thier bank balances..
Republicofscotland says:
4 December, 2022 at 2:03 pm
Who could forget Thewliss, Blackford and Co walking out when a real indy minded MP (Kenny MacAskill) stood up to really defend Scotland and its people in the HoC.
Thewliss, Blackford and Co made sure they bowed to the Speaker on scurrying out. SNP MPs are a bunch of treacherous shits, who’ll need to be dragged kicking and screaming from the HoC.
There is no route to indy via the SNP.
https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1584987495921750016
And with a little bow and curtsey
they show us all
with a little bow n curtsey
they show us aw
they bow n scrape
fine faces for ony shape
and with a little bow n curtsey
they show us aw
Mandy is late to the party.
The lady in question was interviewed days ago & LBC covered the scoop. She was livid that she’d been told to shut it. Was a long time member of that organisation & just stood up to Nicola & it’s organisers with no idea what she was going to say & what’s worse, the Stepford wives agreed with her but said nothing.
There you go, zoom callers. That’s how it’s done. You speak truth to power & fk where the chips land.
I sincerely hope this happens, from the union O/O cover girl.
“The Union could be lost because of the English growing tired of Scottish nationalists’ constant calls for a referendum and wishing them good riddance, Baroness Arlene Foster has warned.”
https://archive.ph/8Nit9#selection-1341.0-1345.67
I was hoping we would be a bit further forward with this story by now but they key question that arises hasn’t yet been broached; when we say they’re against it, can we assume they are against the idea in principle or are they simply against using the next Westminster election?
If the latter, are they arguing in favour of using Holyrood as a vehicle for plebiscitary purposes? We don’t know; it isn’t as binary as it it may seem.
As much as moaning about trougher SNP politicians might be gratifying on some level, the big risk here is that we end up with nothing.
It sounds like there’s division over the question which may very well lead to stalemate — What then? Well, the obvious solution for them is to unite around the idea of using neither and stringing all of us along for a few more years until Labour gets in, or something…
That’s where this is heading.
Of course, they won’t tell us doing nothing is the new plan. They’ll just do nothing and bang on about democracy and bad people in the Tory party.
Shafted again.
Did someone say titter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJiw_VpnGgk&t=1h3m0s
..20 minutes further in Musk mentions twitter being the only tech mob no longer colluding – which begs an intriguing question about when said collusion began (and if it coincides, for example, with one of the signatories to the vow moving to FB 🙂 )
Republic of Scotland
So you think I’m a plant, sent here for what exactly?
You don’t mind the English sneering at and racially abusing every nation on earth,,,but when the sentiment is returned, you feel it is your duty as a Scot, to defend the bastards?
Take a hike ya fuckin roaster.
And while I remember,,,
C’mon Senegal,,,get right intea the bastards.
Rab Davis says:
4 December, 2022 at 2:53 pm
Republic of Scotland
So you think I’m a plant, sent here for what exactly?
To discredit independence supporters as a bunch of racist pricks, ya racist prick.
Jeez, how stupid do you think we are?
Republicofscotland says:4 December, 2022 at 1:51 pm
Following the UKSC ruling, that denies Scotland’s people democracy, there should be no Scots MPs at WM. They should have been withdrawn permanently.”
Exactly Colin by their actions we shall know them, any real indy minded MP would’ve walked out never to return to the HoC on hearing the UKSC outcome.
Not only that any real indy minded FM would’ve appeared on tv right after the UKSC determination and said right we’re holding a snap election at Holyrood with independence in mind.
It says a lot about the FM and her MPs that, neither event happened, and will never happen with Sturgeon as FM, frankly there’s not a SNP MSP at Holyrood right now that has the moral fibre to be FM, and do the right thing, all the half-decent ones jumped ship to Alba, and now it’s only the dregs, the dross that’s left at Holyrood”
———————————————————
Is that right Aye ? How many years did Alba’s Alex Salmond serve happily as a Westminster MP ? Salmond knows that’s where the real power is. When MP’s get elected to WM jobs the majority of the people who voted for them want them to job properly there as grown up Adults not to play silly childish pointless political games to keep the radical moonhowlers happy.
SNP have amended a long standing saying-
Better Late and Never.
Do something in Westminster other than bleat like sheep.
Break their rules call them the liars they are walk out as you are insulted in there and without any kind of power that means anything.
Call a Holyrood election in May just after our average home energy bill goes over £3,000p.a
Harry McAye says:
4 December, 2022 at 12:39 pm
” Add Chris Law and Angela Crawley. Never once heard either speak during PMQs although Law, the castle owner, is very fond of bobbing up and down doing a very good meerkat impression. ”
Lol . Yea ” Rich man in his castle ” Mr Law does indeed bob up n doon in , I presume , a display of actually being awake and in the process resemble a hirsute meerkat , that’s when he’s not savouring his position as President of the WH Motorcycle Club aka Hell’s Aunties . ” Simples ” .
In a previous post I referred to the nauseating curtsy incident, thinking it was that stellar cast member of SNP @ WESTMINISTER . THE MOVIE – Kirsten Oswald ; turns-out it was Thewliss The Clueless ; Ms Oswald merely nodding to the CHAIR ( shhh ! don’t dare diss the CHAIR ) in time-honoured Deferential Jock fashion
Point being ….other than the wee now wing-clipped Blackford and that esteemed veteran of WM Bar n Restaurant Kultcha – P Wishbone , and maybe a couple of others , the rest are so undemonstrative and anonymous as to be indistinguishable from the benches they occupy . Where does the person end and the bench begin ? Or vice-a-versa .
“Is that right Aye ? How many years did Alba’s Alex Salmond serve happily as a Westminster MP ? Salmond knows that’s where the real power is.”
He’s (Salmond) the only person as FM to lead Scots to an indyref and even today after the ugly fit up against him failed, he still continues to push for Scottish independence.
Power only lies at Westminster if Scots think it lies there, Scotland current Judas of an FM seems to think it does, (allowing a foreign court in a foreign country to decide on a matter that Scots need to settle, the outcome was of no surprise) the second enough Scots realise the truth of the matter that power lies with them at Holyrood then the game will be up for this rancid prison of a union.
Alex Salmond was needed at WM.
If he’d walked out when support for indy was 27%, we’d never have got anywhere near a ref.
I wish some people would think before responding.
‘They’re there to cause trouble for London . . . the entire PURPOSE of an SNP MP is to lose their job’.
Is it though? Is not one of their purposes also to hold the UK government of the day to account to do the best for Scotland? And this means them getting involved in the everyday machinations of Westminster, including a certain amount of compromise and negotiation and yes, ‘going native’. For many years the SNP have argued a vote for them is just that, representing Scottish interests, rather than an endorsement of independence and this is one of the reasons for their significant electoral successes.
If there sole purpose was to make their job redundant they would never take their seats in the first place since their presence in the Houses of Parliament has no material effect on ending the Union and thus their jobs as MPs.
Somebody on Twitter had said the recent uproar with the SNP MP’s that forced NS to call a zoom call meeting was because they felt that the SNP were lying to the voters about an indyref2 – that they couldn’t keep treading water waiting (and lying) for it. As if there was a modicum of integrity amongst that lot.
And it turns out they were upset because they’d lose out on the fat salary and expenses they’ve been enjoying over the years. And they’re trapped, because the Dear Leader wants them to continue the pretense that they actually want independence because the SNP need the short money.
No doubt she told them “Don’t worry folks, WM will never allow a fair plebicite vote to go through or to stand, they just need to ignore it, and we’ll be settling in for another 4 yrs. We just need those chumps up here to vote us in again”.
Meanwhile, am I right in hearing the Alba Party won’t stand candidates for WM? An absolute gift to the SNP. And if Alba do stand candidates in a GE, we’d need to cross our fingers hoping that they actually WILL work to free Scotland and not fall for WM’s charms again. What a mess.
This is why I don’t think we’ll ever get free by political means.
These are the ones who as far as I am concerned are more interested in gravy;
Anne McLaughlin
Pete (Pension) Wishart
Alyn Smith
Stewart McDonald
John Nicolson
All 5 will no doubt be making the case of how it’s best to get elected in 2024 and then plan for Indy!
George Orwell wrote;
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
How so very true!
The four unionist parties at Holyrood leaders pose together.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fi5waQIXkAA5oTQ?format=jpg&name=small
“New blow for Sturgeon as German ambassador says an independent Scotland WOULD have to adopt the euro”
Well, he doesn’t really, but as we’ve learned on WOS long long ago the headline is nearly always a lie. Or at the very least is very misleading because it doesn’t give the full story. And neither does this latest pile of Unionist BritNat claptrap: https://web.archive.org/web/20221204155317/https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/new-blow-for-sturgeon-as-german-ambassador-says-an-independent-scotland-would-have-to-adopt-the-euro/ar-AA14SCU3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5c61df4da24a4dc8b2eae14b17f3e4e3%2A
__________
From another discredited Unionist rag, this time The Torygraph, and their latest headline from their new BritNat ‘poster girl’:
“English may say good riddance to Scots if indyref calls persist, says Arlene Foster”
OH PLEASE! PLEASE LET IT BE TRUE.
I think we all should support that new English nationalist party that has been formed. They are all about wanting for England everything we want for Scotland. They are not like the EDL, BNP or NF because, so far, they have avoided being infested by right-wing fanatics. Let’s all send them our support and good wishes. 😉
Experimental post, folks, just trying something with link from my previous post to see if i can make it tidier: https://web.archive.org/web/20221204155317
NAH! SHUGAR! Didn’t work! Oh well!
P.S. I’ve not seen anyone else comment (apologies if I missed it) but the sheer irony of blowhard Blackford on the front page of the National quoted as saying “the focus has to be on getting out as soon as possible”…
Out of what? Certainly not the UK, so I can only assume he’s talking about his role as Westminster leader of the SNP group.
Purely by logic there is no point in Scottish MP’s ‘sitting in Westminster after a Supreme Court ruling that politically ruled the Scots do not have a right to self determination while in a treaty union.
That the treaty of union and the Supreme Court are acting as Colonisers in the open should send messages of shock to the UN,
This is not so,
The only remedy is to stop moaning and withdraw from a Colonised treaty that is supposed to jointly equal, but far from it.
SNP HQ is certainly ramping up the Thewliss campaign on Twitter but so far it is on a couple of Nicophant MPs coming out for her.
A clear unintended signal that Thewliss is the Surgeon choice. I wonder what made Thewliss change her mind about standing…I’m guessing it was a call from Sturgeon.
Cheer leader is Anne McLaughlin so that tells you all you need to know.
So now, we need a plan. We need to stop wallowing in our hurt and get up and fight again. Coz Tories may call an early GE.
Boris looks like he wants back too….
We need to get out of here, We the people, need to take this to the court. UN we need 100k members in Salvo to do it.
This is where Scotland is at now. We are an energy-rich country. If we can’t look after the most vulnerable people in Scotland, we cannot call ourselves a caring country, and are a disgrace.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-63848589.amp
If you want an overview of how an independence campaign should work – emphasis on not being tied to a political party like the woeful SNP – and what preparation needs to be done, then you could do a lot worse than read Common Weal’s new document Sorted, summarised here by their director Amanda Burgauer:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23168307.yes-movement-mess-needs-taken-hands-snp/
It also quite rightly stresses the need to have a vision of what independence would actually look like.
The document is light years ahead of the pitiful Sturgeon’s lack of any vision or strategy, and is one any supporter of independence could surely get behind. Here, at last, is a coherent blueprint for independence which has vision and detail, and one which rightly puts the stunted politicking and power addiction of the feeble SNP in perspective. Very cheering.
Anyone noticed how the shape of Blackford has changed over his time in the Commons.
It would of course be pejorative to say that he’s turned into Mr Blobby with a walk not unlike the Penguin.
So I take it back save to observe that he has changed utterly. Too much fine dining, bar boozing,and not enough exercise.
Maybe we should call him Slick?
https://tinyurl.com/7ekmsus7
Is this what you wanted Stoker?
I just opened your link closed the ‘can you chip in’ top banner (little x in top right hand corner) and then ran it through
https://tinyurl.com/app/
This might be of interest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsn7ZRjA1M
Through a Scottish Prism 4th December 2022
Angry motormouthed Yank, Kat Cary, reckons that Thewlis is just wonderful.
That should tell you something.
https://archive.ph/xMPPg
‘Advocate Gordon Jackson denies watching World Cup on phone during Sheku Bayoh inquiry’
Do you think ‘they’ are out to get him?
Yeah I noticed the ramping up for Alison Thewliss.
She’s banging about getting loads of support, so if it’s
only a few Nicophants that’s good, but by the same token that makes her seem fake
Robin was great today on Prism.
All indy needs is one United civic Scotland. Forget politicians. You need a united movement with a united plan & united ideas of how things could be better for Scotland with the knowledge to say why and from that everything else will flow.
At the moment we have sturgeon is on a power trip, cloth ears & not running the country right & it was clear she had fk all prepared for the courts decision so she’s ran away.
Stoker – England would never go for Independence. By the time they removed Scotland, Wales & NIs revenue they’d discover they’re not only skint but they’ve lost Thier place on the world stage. Little isolationist England has nothing other than money laundering.
“Purely by logic there is no point in Scottish MP’s ‘sitting in Westminster after a Supreme Court ruling that politically ruled the Scots do not have a right to self determination while in a treaty union.”
Exactly James, and some have already said so.
After the foreign courts ruling, the SNP MPs should’ve walked out of the HoC for good, but that will not happen there too much money to be made by the SNPs MPs, pretending to represent Scotland and push for indy is all just part of the pantomime.
I almost want Alba’s MPs to walk out to put those SNP MP troughers to shame, but in hindsight they are pushing the indy cause at Westminster, and next to the troughing SNP MPs it shows.
The people of Scotland have been told by a foreign court in England in no uncertain terms that they are second class citizens and that they cannot leave this union unless said foreign country’s government says so. I don’t understand why there hasn’t been mass riots and widespread civil unrest in Scotland, on Scots knowing (openly) that they are seen as inferior, then you look at the apathy from many Scots, and the centuries of conditioning via a country treated as a colony and you see that the Scottish psyche has been damaged in some.
It’s Christmas. Time of goodwill to all men.
Nicola already has her presents for Alex. They include a box of chocolates from his favourite maker, Nicola’s own copy of a standard work on marine insurance (well she’ll never need it), some beef from an Aberdeen Angus, and her own translation of the last book of the Bible. All chosen with care.
Rab Davis
England look to be at least two-to-one favourites for a 90 minutes win tonight.
My advice to you is to smear likely areas of your carpet with chocolate sauce.
That way, when you are face down gnawing on it, at least it will be tolerably tasty.
Seeing that Sturgeon met with Flynn at Bute House last week, it looks like this has been decided for a wee while.
My bet is that Thewliss is simply announcing a run for leader to make it look to outsiders as if there is any internal democracy in the NuSNP.
Either that or Sturgeon wants complete control and simply requires Thewliss to be leader to maintain that control if she wasn’t impressed with Flynn
Interesting times indeed
A well-placed source tells me Thewliss is likely to win. And not just because so far she’s the only declared candidate.
@ Geri 5.21pm yes Robin was correct in what he was saying , the only thing is some of us have been saying the same thing for years , you don’t have to be a political strategist to know that you have to PRODUCE the information to enable and educate people that independence is the BETTER way forward
The snp including when AS was leader FAILED to produce any evidence that PROVED independence was the BETTER option , the documents (wee books) produced by SC went a long way to educate people BUT the failing was that they were produced by a BLOGGER who had NO official capacity, they were NOT produced by an official source and they did NOT factually expose the lies and misinformation constantly pushed by the broadcasters and msm , the MSM got away with murder and it will be the same again unless they are SERIOUSLY CONFRONTED and EXPOSED as the liars they are , WHO WILL DO THAT
The only people supplying educational information to EXPOSE the lies are private independence supporters like Zarkwan and others , but they are NOT official and DO NOT have access to the REAL provable information that would be uncontestable in comparison to the lies
How many years has the SG promised the REAL GERS figures to expose the travesty of the guesstimates they sign off on ,how are the electorate meant to believe they are being scammed when snp sg’s including AS’S have accepted these fake figures produced by fake data
solarflare says:4 December, 2022 at 12:13 pm
I think if I were an SNP Westminster MP I’d probably be laughing at the prospect of a de facto referendum in a GE.
What seems most likely is that the SNP would win a huge chunk of seats but fall short of the 50% threshold, so you could just keep the gravy train rolling another 5 years without actually needing to do very much other than shout “Tories bad” every so often.
If a lot of SNP MPs lose their seats in a de facto referendum then it means Scotland is a long way from wanting independence, in which case they are essentially redundant anyway.
——————————————————
Was it the last GE they said Vote for us to Stop Brexit ?
Thewliss looks so smiley and wholesome. I prefer to think the reason she’s a shoe in is that she has a dark side and that a manilla envelope containing some compromising photographs is somehow involved…..
Correction
TBH I didn’t believe all the ‘I love you pish’ did you?
I just thought it was a chat up line in order to get into our ‘resources.’
Oh Rev, the last flicker of hope has been blown out. I was hoping that all those MPs who voted for Joanna Cherry last time would do the same this [if she stood, obv].
I hate these cliffhangers!
Will she have to meet King Chas and do her wee curtsy or will she do the Sturgeon bow and bend over and touch her toes?
“A well-placed source tells me Thewliss is likely to win.”
This would explain why in the last few hours or so that she’s been all over the Britnat media. I think Thewliss winning would be right up Sturgeon’s street, if she hasn’t already sent word down that she wants Thewliss to take over form Blackford.
How on earth do you pronounce Thewliss?
Could be very trick if you have a lisp or a dodgy set of false teeth.
I wonder if John Main has any chocolate sauce advice for her when she has to kiss the carpet when she meets King C.
And this really is the problem. Coining in around 5k after tax etc. per month, to do sweet f all, and occasionally whine about how unfair London is, is a cushy job. Some have made it their life career – eh Pension Pete?
As I keep saying The SNP, the do nothing party.
Neither the holyrood bunch or the London glitterati, intend giving up their cushy and highly profitable SNP careers soon. To them, independence is something for ‘another day’. I mean for goodness sake, they have expensive holidays and private schol fees to pay.
For London’s gold they are bought and sold, just like Labour, who over a hundred years ago were elected to go down to London and settle up. They have been living it up in London ever since.
I hve come to the conclusion, the whole damn lot, from top to bottom need booted out at the next elections. They are lazy and have long forgotten about independence. It’s something they talk about, but will never, ever do. The MP’s in London, in particular have gotten very, very rich, whilst selling Scotland down the drain. All of them Tommy Shepherd, Alyn Smith, Pete Wishart, Chris Laws. The whole rotten lot.
Meanwhile ordinary Scots have been forcefully stripped of their EU citizenship, and now see their once proud country relegated to colony of England status. And still these useless London worshipers do nothing. The whole lot of them should stay in England. Tractors, every single one.
Nobody remarking yet on the speed of the uncle-nigelling of that intake of SNP MPS
They were absorbed by Westminster so fast
You have to ask the question how many of them were genuine independence supporters even at the moment of their election
Thewliss will win. One word: vagina.
Ruby
Sometimes I agree with Andy, sometimes I don’t. Depends if his points are good ones.
Not understanding why you think Thewliss will have to meet the King at all, let alone kiss the carpet. But if you have information that ceremony will form part of the induction of the SNP’s WM leader, please do share.
I am always keen to learn something new.
Please don’t think me rude If I don’t post again tonight, though. The game’s about to start!
OT….
Fookin’el. Just ruined ma tea.
I used a new Peri Peri marinade to give some roast chicken a bit pep.
Didn’t read the ingredients, but it smelled pretty good, so just went for it… as you do.
Bleuch. Fkg horrible. Peri Peri my arse. Tasted like pure salt. You know when you take a swallae of juice, and it’s actually concentrate? Well that, but with salt.
“Then” I read the ingredients, and it says in the small print in 100g of marinade there are 44.2g of salt. Rub it in liberally!
Jezuz wept. Couldn’t eat it. Ruined.
I followed the instructions to the letter. No traffic light labels on it, no labelling saying “may contain salt”, no label saying “may contain industrial quantities of salt”, no recipe saying your salt will be more tasty if you add some chicken to it.
South African import, so I guess this is literally a taste of things to come without EU style labelling. Everything you live by will now need recalibrated. No more devil-may-care wandering through the exotic foreign spices… These spice racks may now contain ingredients mixed by crazy fuckers.
Here’s hoping it was just salty, and I don’t start growing women’s breasts and watch my knackers turn into walnuts.
Read the labels? Aye, gonna have to. What standard nowadays ensures the label is truthful? Not the EU obviously.
Fkg Brexiteers. You owe us roast chicken Sunday dinner you tossers, and a chippie tea I’ve still to go and buy. Poor fkg chicken died for nothing, and probably had an extra shit life anyway because Brexit fked up his / her life choices too.
Fkg annoyed. It possibly shows.
Only up side is I have a nearly full pot of Peri-Peri Marinade to grit the steps when it’s icy.
Robert Louis
Just wondering if you are aware of the irony of slating London worshippers whilst banging on about ordinary Scots being stripped of their EU citizenship, in the same post.
Any ordinary Scot desperately lamenting losing their EU citizenship had ample warning, while they were still an EU citizen, to get away to that earthly nirvana, the EU. Few did.
Not a day goes by when the loss of my EU citizenship ever even impinges on my consciousness. I am guessing that the same holds for the majority of ordinary Scots.
What is it with you EU worshippers anyways? For all the years we were in the so-called wonderful EU, things still got worse, year after year, after year.
Mike Russell finds his spine and says that using a Holyrood election for a de-facto referendum should be considered.
(Mike is of course SNP president and former cabinet secretary for the constitution)
-… when asked by the BBC if the “de facto referendum” should be for the next Westminster or Holyrood election, Mr Russell said “we need to look at both of those options very carefully”.’
The game? Is that one of your soap operas?
You’re fine nobody will grudge you having a bit of down time.
Breeks
You chicken saga cheered me up
Is it ok to say on here that I would rather England didn’t win this game of football tonight?
Seems the place is crawling with grassin bastards who are rather fond of the neighbours to the south of us.
@Scotsrenewables 7:31pm
The SNP have yet to work out?. Despite spending an unbelievable amount of resource prior to the UKSC decision on gaming the outcomes. That is what happens when decision making is centralised to a few people. You get bad decisions and/or indeterminable delays. Rabbits in the headlights. If Stu’s source is correct and Thewliss becomes the leader of HoC, the SNP pressing the self destruct button again on our behalf supposedly.
Various BritNat media sources on the SNP’s Alison Thewliss taking over from trougher Blackford:
“Ms Thewliss said she had “no intention” of running, but now there is a vacancy, she believes she could do the job well and she has a “duty” to step up.”
Liar! You mean you jumped at the chance after Sturgeon phoned you and said she wanted you as her next gopher.
“The news comes after Ian Blackford announced he would not be restarting as Westminster leader at the party’s AGM next week amid speculation of a coup by Aberdeen South MP Stephen Flynn. Mr Flynn has not yet publicly announced his intention to join the race.”
Thewliss has also stated: “The Westminster group needs a leader who can build on Ian Blackford’s achievements and demonstrate that independence, far from being abstract, is the alternative to Brexit, the cost-of-living crisis and Tory austerity.”
SO! As you were, then? LOL!
Meanwhile, the BBC in Scotland Text Service is now quoting Blackford as saying he wasn’t pushed, and that he would have been elected again had he wanted to stay on.
LOL TAKE 2!
Geri says:
Didn’t Alba recently vote they’d not take thier elected seats at WM?
———–
um no, here’s kenny macaskill at alba conference 2 weeks ago saying if he didnt go to WM his constituency branch would de select him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi0Lt392cjI&t=2972s
51 min 10 secs in
@ Ruby on 4 December 2022 at 5:00 pm:
Thank you for TinyURL.com https://tinyurl.com/app/
Cheers Ma Dear! Soopa Smashin’ Great! 😉 Had enough of archive.is
Robert Hughes
Do you suffer from paranoia?
Does anyone else think there is panic in the 77th because the Rev is back and biting?
“BBC chiefs agree they must fight internal ‘liberal bias’ and ‘groupthink'”
https://tinyurl.com/673zsy42
Oh the laughs are coming thick and fast tonight.
That would be the chicken would need to worry about. All these female hormones.
Every seen the French film ‘A Slightly Pregnant Man’
The films starts with the husband saying ‘Oh no not chicken again.
It was chicken containing all the female hormones every single day he and ended up not just with breast but pregnant. His hugh belly was a bit awkward because he was a driving instructor.
Maybe the piri piri spice reacted badly with the chlorine & all the hormones in the chicken and actually saved you from a lot of morning sickness & nine months of pregnancy, huge breasts and a rush to the maternity ward to give birth.
Every cloud.
This film would be unacceptable in this modern age it would like Mrs Doubtfire & Tootsie be considered transphobic.
When the nationalist party start accommodating the colonial government. Then it is usually the beginning of the end for that party.
This is Ireland in the early 20th century all over again. The movement has to break ranks and ditch the Scottish government. I haven’t a clue how we go about it. But certainly it is essential, before we are chained to the UK as Catalonia is to Spain.
Robert Hughes
So by your calculations, there is only one guy in Scotland wanting England to get gubbed?
I can assure you, the guys in the boozer I am in here in Glasgow are desperate for an England defeat.
They will return in a few days to watch France fuck the English.
Get over mate, these things are normal in Scotland.
Aberdeen South MP Stephen Flynn has publicly announced his intention to join the race to be SNP leader at Westminster – after publicly denying it a couple of weeks ago!
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/westminster-snp-twitter-agm-scotland-b1044743.html
Cozy Feet Pete and the Pension Posse.
Great name for a new Westminster band with strumming Wishart on keyboards.
Ricky says:
4 December, 2022 at 8:03 pm
Is it ok to say on here that I would rather England didn’t win this game of football tonight?
Seems the place is crawling with grassin bastards who are rather fond of the neighbours to the south of us.
Ricky says:
4 December, 2022 at 8:25 pm
This sites fucked when zoomers like Scottish renewables are dominating proceedings.
Not that long ago he was accusing you of being a troll and a Yoon if you dared say a wrong word about his beloved Sturgeon.
Ricky says:
4 December, 2022 at 8:30 pm
Robert Hughes
Do you suffer from paranoia?
Ricky says:
4 December, 2022 at 8:40 pm
Robert Hughes
So by your calculations, there is only one guy in Scotland wanting England to get gubbed?
I can assure you, the guys in the boozer I am in here in Glasgow are desperate for an England defeat.
They will return in a few days to watch France fuck the English.
Get over mate, these things are normal in Scotland.
At least “Ricky” doesn’t at all get hyper bitter and twisted over anything as petty as a game of football, because that would truly be tragic beyond measure … 😀
Liz: things were very different pre 2014. Westminster did not take the SNP so seriously that it made a great deal of difference to their arrogance. All of that complacency has changed. You could equally argue that had Mr Salmond walked out with his crew, the real fight would have started. Really, opting for a referendum appeared to be the best option at that point, but, looking back, one wonders. What it did, though was test the waters. Now, we know there is a solid core of voters want independence. We know, too, that a pre independence referendum is no longer an option unless it can be won convincingly. We also know that, since Brexit, devolution is under attack and that time is running out fo us. I sometimes imagine that we had taken our independence before the oil was discovered and how very different things would be now. You can’t live on what ifs, though, so we need to do what it takes now, no more pussyfooting around with wholly unnecessary pre independence referendums and court cases that we will always lose. It won’t be easy, but we have to do it the hardest way possible now.
John Main..
Are you an old git? Retired & don’t have a business? EU membership doesn’t bother YOU because YOU are settled? Ever thought, as you are suggesting others do, of moving your arse to the part of the country who wanted to brexit?
Young ppl don’t want to brexit. They’ve education, travel, life, opportunity, work ahead of them. Wy should they move from the country that voted to remain?
Why should business – who could move around goods with unfettered access to 500 million + without restriction?
Workers protection, holiday pay etc
Then there’s the old gits – oh dear. Just as they were about to instruct pensions were in line with other EU member countries.
Sad part of all this is there was absolutely zero need for us to leave & we should’ve ended the treaty with the UK – not them ending the EU one on our behalf. It was nothing more than spite & to deliberately keep scotland down & her resources & opportunities clipped.
Sooner naw voters wake up to the myth that they are our keeper the better. There is no great Oz who reigns supreme in this imaginary UK state with an imaginary unwritten constitution dictating terms. It’s two separate countries in a treaty that can be ended. That’s it.
Twathater – Robin has a three part series on his website of where it all began to where we need to be now…
Civic Scotland needs to get the band back together. Politicians should’ve been no where near the indy movement. Interesting his take on Blackford. His blunder over pensions clearly demonstrating they’re disjointed & winging it – that inspires no one to the cause.
The jobs of SNP MPs on the CalMac routes are on the line with or without a de facto election.
Schrodinger
Ta for the link. I’ll take a look. I thought they’d agreed at conference while other Independence say only some should be sent to deal with business down there but the bulk should be working out of thier constituency towards Scottish indy.
As one says, what porpoise do over 45 have there? What is it they’re doing?
@ Stoker at 8.29
If I have understood them both correctly, a key difference between archive and tinyURL is that the former preserves a version of the archived article even if its original source becomes unavailable, but the latter only changes the link, so that if your article is censored, it’s gone.
They both have their advantages and uses, of course.
Lorna,
According to Salmond he got wired into the library & didn’t raise his head until he’d swallowed the rule book – then he kept interrupting the chancellors statement Lolz! Get out Mr Salmond! —–>
At least he was doing something there. & The day he schooled Hoyle for cutting off Joanna – ooft!
Wings is fuckin shite nowadays.
Too many “Yoon Howlers”.
Ellis
Main
Chas
Boyle
Joe
Scottish renewables
Republic of Scotland
Robert Hughes.
Do yourself a favour and cancel your subscription.
Free speech is cancelled on Wings.
The place is full of grassin snowflake bastards.
Sturgeon will be proud of every single one of you.
The only one with any balls is gutsy wee Ruby.
(And before Paranoid Robert Hughes butts in, I am not Ruby using a different name).
^^^^
Head gone!
BBC news at 10.15pm 6 minutes on Englands football match where they have won no trophies
National rail strikes, Covid outbreak in China, Womens rights protest in Iran all flicked over quickly to give 2 minutes to English Cricket match latest.
Half the international news dedicated to God’s own sports team.
The world can go to hell.
No one in Scotland, Wales or NI is remotely interested in cheering on England in anything. That’s a fact of life. Every world cup the same shit is forced down our throats..
‘You wouldn’t ask the family of a murder victim to actively support the killers future endeavours, would you now?’ Lol
Only England support England. The end.
@Lorna Campbell 9:40pm
Agreed. The seventies was the time to grab Independence and some of our ancestors were working on that. And they have been forgotten. It’s a difficult shift now. The SNP are a one person show and it’s resulted in a severe collapse of our Public Services and Government competence. Divorced from reality and the needs and betterment of the people. I know what the line of questioning should be in the HoC. It’s obvious to anybody outside Nicola’s bubble. But I won’t act as an unpaid Spad. Grumpy SNP MPs take note. That’s your job!.
Well any mp who steps up to Blackford’s job and does not force Nicola to revisit.
EFT rather than eu
A Scottish pound not sterilisation
A Hollyrood election not Westminster for plebiscite
A national convention immediately
If they don’t make this happen they will go down in history as one of her team protecting the union and failing the cause
‘Yes movement is a mess and needs taken out of the hands of SNP’
“The biggest failure in recent Scottish history by far is the failure to capitalise on our energy resources and turn them into jobs. The Scottish Government’s energy company proposal was sadly a vanity project from the start. It was only about retailing energy, where the margins are low and there aren’t many jobs. That was always going to fail. It refused to look at energy generation which is where all the profits and jobs are.”
It drives her “mad”, Burgauer says, that Wales started a national energy company and “the Scottish Government didn’t get beyond a PR stunt. We could own almost all our own energy resources without independence, and without spending a lot of money on it, if we had a National Energy Company.”
https://archive.ph/FTCcn
Four people have been placed on pre-moderation for personal abuse. More will follow if it continues. I’m done with warnings.
Hi peeps.
If you use,
https://12ft.io/
to show a page, it gives you the original page as cached by Google.
If you use,
https://archive.ph/
then that page can be over-written by a newer version, uploaded by whoever, to write over the original.
If you use the ‘Wayback Machine’, at,
https://archive.org/
then the page is archived forever and cannot be over-written.
If you want to keep it out there…
Scotsrenewables says:4 December, 2022 at 7:31 pm
Mike Russell finds his spine and says that using a Holyrood election for a de-facto referendum should be considered.
(Mike is of course SNP president and former cabinet secretary for the constitution)
-… when asked by the BBC if the “de facto referendum” should be for the next Westminster or Holyrood election, Mr Russell said “we need to look at both of those options very carefully”.’
——————————————————-
Mike Russell will just tell you anything you want to hear and won’t tell you ever about what he is really thinking. He is another Sturgeon worshipping lackey. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/19762205.snp-president-michael-russell-advocated-health-care-privatisation-book-written-party-donor/
Geri says:
4 December, 2022 at 10:41 pm
No one in Scotland, Wales or NI is remotely interested in cheering on England in anything. That’s a fact of life. Every world cup the same shit is forced down our throats..
‘You wouldn’t ask the family of a murder victim to actively support the killers future endeavours, would you now?’ Lol
Only England support England. The end.
First, it’s far less forced down your throat than the soft soaping of the evil sectarian bigotry of the Old Firm by the so-called “Scottish” (read Glasgow) media, and the first class treatment those two businesses receive for over a hundred years of propagating the institutionised sectarianism as a legitimate recreational past time, so a wee bit of self awareness of the plank in Scottish eyes wouldn’t go amiss.
Secondly, there’s the off button.
Thirdly, no one’s expecting anyone to cheer on England any more than cheer on any other nation. That’s a matter of personal choice. But no one with an adult’s maturity cares a flying f**k about another country losing a sporting fixture on spurious pseudo-political grounds when it’s really the sour grapes life’s perpetual losers dine on to feel good about themselves momentarily because they feel anything they support – including themselves – is doomed to never amount to anything.
Finally – you don’t see any hypocrisy in being perma-sour towards the English when the owner of this website is perma-located in Bath, England?
Have a wee word with yourself – you are long past the needing to grow up stage. The end.
I’ve just watched two informative videos in the past wee whiley.
The first was today’s “Scottish Prism”, where, as the commenters btl have typed, Robin talked a lot of sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsn7ZRjA1M
The second was this ‘Part 1’ from Shauney Boy (Parts 2 and 3 are on YouTube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXsp4sKILs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXsp4sKILs0
Informative, or whuh’?
I’m not convinced on EFTA over full EU membership any more. I think we’re just pandering to a minority idiot viewpoint by going down that road.
Scotland will flourish as a full EU member with stupendous resources to sell. We will also serve as an excellent platform for US, English and others that need access to EU markets, driving all sorts of direct investment, and can expect trade, travel, transport, and tourism, to boom well into the future. Speaking English makes Scotland a highly attractive place to invest for foreign companies.
EFTA membership, like full EU membership, entails freedom of movement throughout the whole EU/European Economic Area too, and I wouldn’t expect the irrational few Scots who fell for the Brexit bullshit to settle for it. When our independent economy starts motoring we are going to need more foreign workers., a lot more. It’s hard to make a case for EFTA over EU membership and I’ve yet to hear one.
The currency issue for me is fairly straightforward — anything but Sterling. If there’s to be a transition period with us continuing to use the pound, I want it as short as possible; England is politically unstable and we don’t want to suffer currency volatility any longer than necessary. I’m not in the least resistant to using the Euro — it’s much more stable than Sterling and that’s the key to success for tiger economies like ours.
As Mrs Merton might say [to any of the nuSNP MP’s]
‘Just what is it about a £250,000 per annum all expenses paid lifestyle that has you settling in and not settling up at Westminster’?
Apologies for link duplication.
Lorna Campbell says:
4 December, 2022 at 9:40 pm
We also know that, since Brexit, devolution is under attack and that time is running out….
I think the watershed was Devolution itself.
Through Devolution, Scotland got an Assembly which presented Westminster with a colonial foothold in Edinburgh, where Westminster Parliamentary Sovereignty physically encroached into the sovereign Realm of Scotland, and we Scots wheeled this Trojan Horse inside the ramparts, took it to our hearts and even started calling it our “Parliament”.
Since 1998, the colonial encroachment has been clandestine and pernicious, but slowly and cautiously Westminster has been tightening the screws; the Supreme Court for example is another encroachment given a bridgehead in Scotland, and a foundation laid to set English and Scots Law on a path towards convergence.
Back in 1707, I believe the Speaker at Westminster declared “We have catch’d Scotland and we will bind her fast”.
With Devolution in 1998, I think there was a similar trap sprung shut, because Westminster saw at once what Scotland did not; that a devolved Holyrood institution was thoroughly incompatible with Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, but by accepting a Devolved Assembly, Westminster established a Proxy “Scottish” Government that was trapped and under it’s Constitutional control, and which Scotland foolishly recognised as it’s “Government”. In doing so, the Constitutional trap snapped shut.
Westminster has understood that from the beginning in my opinion, and we Scots have been dumb enough to compromise our sovereign Constitution time and time again, and every time did, Westminster just tightened the cable tie another click. Every single time Scotland revealed it didn’t know it’s own Constitutional strength, another incompetent precedent was set, and the noose tightened again.
Every time Scotland should have fought, but didn’t, we gave Westminster courage to encroach a little further. Softly and slowly, Scotland was the frog to be boiled.
Fast forward to Brexit, and Westminster got away the brazen and direct colonial subjugation of Scotland’s sovereign democratic will over Brexit, a blatant unconstitutional outrage, but instead of an angry Claim of Right in 2016 putting the Union into an existential constitutional crisis, Scotland had a Vichy Gauleiter in Nicola Sturgeon, who abandoned Scotland’s Claim of Right and set about enshrining Westminster’s colonial political encroachment into law, using Westminster’s colonial legal encroachment; Tony Blair’s Supreme Court.
Scotland’s frog was already parboiled, and it was Sturgeon who made it happen.
Sturgeon is an imbecile and a ("Tractor" - Ed) to Scotland who sold our interests down the river without even knowing she was doing it, and she should have been impeached in 2016.
Thank God we now have SALVO and ALBA, who are at least prepared to make a stand and defend Scotland’s Constitutional Rights and Integrity, and who, thank god, appreciate Holyrood for the Trojan Horse that it is, and Sturgeon for the feckless cretin that she is.
Sorry about the italics; no preview and I missed closing the brackets to end the bit I meant to emphasise.
The issue for Scots is that for over 300 years, the narrative has been to submerge Scots in a phoney narrative, to deprive them of the knowledge of their true rights, true constitution.
No wonder the too poor, too wee narrative prevails. No wonder the concept of a superior all powerful Westminster prevails, and where now Scots don’t even have the right to vote on their future. Not. For Scots to understand that they have the right to decide to take the reins.
Colonialism. We’ve seen it all over the world where the colonial power plunders all that it can take.
And that is what is happening in humble Scotland. Oil, Gas, Wind, Hydro, seabed rights, vast tracts of the country side owned by the elites, our language downgraded to some pagan tongue, and now our legal system and hidden constitution itself under threat.
And like Ireland, our closest neighbour who over a century ago was so greviously exploited and subdued by the weapon of famine and force, that small country now far exceeds Scotland in terms of its economy and living standards.
And of course you don’t need to look far to Norway to see a country delivering it resources for its people.
The fog of the colonial narrative does indeed run deep. Sheep you my say, but sheep are sheep, and we are not.
Time we woke up. And as for the SNP, no chance. They are but fodder to keep the masses at bay on behalf of their Westminster masters.
I went over to the “A great loss post” to finish off reading the comments and lo and behold it seems ellis marky boy and Joe are not only unhappy with the way the REV runs HIS site they feel it is okay to be abusive towards him to underline their dissatisfaction
Ellis says “Speaking of fucking off with that shit, you really, really didn’t answer. ” Mark is right:
Marky boy says “Funny how it’s all “freedom of speech” until someone criticizes you – then it’s Neil Lennon toys out of the pram time.
Oh, and if I had a penny every time I heard that old line “If I spent all day monitoring … no time for anything else … ” excuse – it’s a euphemism for “can’t be bothered, suck it up.” Duly noted.
I don’t have to get off my lazy arse and tell you. It’s your website, not mine (or anyone else’s) – ergo, the buck (and the liability) stops with you – even more so when you are being given money once again to supposedly devote more of your time to write it”
Marky has previously bad mouthed the way the rev runs HIS site and he seems as his latest comment shows that he is extremely interested in how the rev EARNS his money, it may be that Marky has subscribed a large monthly payment to the rev’s appeal and doesn’t feel that he is getting value for money , he made it clear to the rev NOT to ask him to be moderator of the blog as he had better things to do with his time
A wee comment from me Marky don’t let the door hit you on your arse on the way out
What concerns me, and others may remember, ellis and marky during the revs retirement trial were very vociferous about the rev closing down the site, if I remember correctly they mentioned it on quite a few occasions
ellis may be thinking of resurrecting his old blog to replace WOS and he maybe feels that his talents have been recognised for their astuteness and diplomacy and would encourage people to visit his new blog , maybe Marky has volunteered to be a moderator on the new blog
Joe like Marky likes to make wee snide comments about visitor numbers and comments, is Joe and Marky owners of blogs with less numbers
Willie says:5 December, 2022 at 2:13 am
The issue for Scots is that for over 300 years, the narrative has been to submerge Scots in a phoney narrative, to deprive them of the knowledge of their true rights, true constitution.
No wonder the too poor, too wee narrative prevails. No wonder the concept of a superior all powerful Westminster prevails, and where now Scots don’t even have the right to vote on their future. Not.
For Scots to understand that they have the right to decide to take the reins.
Colonialism. We’ve seen it all over the world where the colonial power plunders all that it can take.
And that is what is happening in humble Scotland. Oil, Gas, Wind, Hydro, seabed rights, vast tracts of the country side owned by the elites, our language downgraded to some pagan tongue, and now our legal system and hidden constitution itself under threat.And of course you don’t need to look far to Norway to see a country delivering it resources for its people.
“The fog of the colonial narrative does indeed run deep. Sheep you my say, but sheep are sheep, and we are not.Time we woke up.”
We are not a colony only sheep endlessly parrot that sort of childish nonsense.https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/12/04/scotland-is-not-a-british-colony-and-it-never-has-been/?fbclid=IwAR1u8HugW6iqB9jBVU2R5sfzd8KIGheBa6wGKtym7JIy5sD2a5jnTo2nGCo
” And as for the SNP, no chance. They are but fodder to keep the masses at bay on behalf of their Westminster masters.”
Well if not Sheep at least we could all understand Scotland gets all its own Tax Revenues right now ? After all the SNP itself publishes that itself. https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/statistics/2022/08/gers-methodology-2021-22/documents/gers-detailed-revenue-methodology-2021-22/gers-detailed-revenue-methodology-2021-22/govscot%3Adocument/GERS%2B2021-22%2B-%2BDetailed%2BRevenue%2BMethodology.pdf
“And like Ireland, our closest neighbour who over a century ago was so greviously exploited and subdued by the weapon of famine and force, that small country now far exceeds Scotland in terms of its economy and living standards.”
That will be Eire that doesn’t have its own RAF and only 30% approx get free healthcare and the other 70% approx have to pay for healthcare insurance as in the USA model ..that Eire ?
twathater says:
5 December, 2022 at 2:48 am
I went over to the “A great loss post” to finish off reading the comments and lo and behold it seems ellis marky boy and Joe are not only unhappy with the way the REV runs HIS site they feel it is okay to be abusive towards him to underline their dissatisfaction
Ellis says “Speaking of fucking off with that shit, you really, really didn’t answer. ” Mark is right:
Marky boy says “Funny how it’s all “freedom of speech” until someone criticizes you – then it’s Neil Lennon toys out of the pram time.
Oh, and if I had a penny every time I heard that old line “If I spent all day monitoring … no time for anything else … ” excuse – it’s a euphemism for “can’t be bothered, suck it up.” Duly noted.
I don’t have to get off my lazy arse and tell you. It’s your website, not mine (or anyone else’s) – ergo, the buck (and the liability) stops with you – even more so when you are being given money once again to supposedly devote more of your time to write it”
—————————-
That’s quite a rant , was it alcohol fuelled ?
Jamie the Saxt set the precedent.
So, if time has flown, whether or not it’s six and a half years, or 420, maks nae odds. What matters is folk, someone, anyone, in that kind of a position to make a step change internally within themselves.
Alison Thewliss seems to have about as much leadership charisma as John Swinney, and as far as I recall, Swinney’s “leadership” put the SNP in reverse.
But she’ll never be forgiven in this house for walking out on Kenny MacAskill in “that” house.
Thanks Brian!
I was wondering if ‘Wayback Machine’ gets rid of the paywall.
I suppose you could ‘archive.ph’ or ’12ft ladder’ first then use Wayback Machine’
Any info on ‘Microsoft Start’ ?
Genuinely hoping engerland win the homophobic ‘world’ cup. They will be so unable to STFU about it, that it will increase support for Scottish independence.
I think the current SNP leadership would love to be the ones to facilitate Scottish independence. However, they seem to have no idea how to bring it about, no courage to try something radical and contentious, and no humility to admit they seriously need help from the wider indy community to get this back on track. Result – paralysis. No matter, there’s always the comfort blanket of a comfy seat at Holyrood or WM, a nice salary and a solid SNP majority to sustain you eh? Helps to ease the pain and shame. Take these for granted at peril. Nothing lasts forever.
It’s not all about a football game now is it?
The way I see it is all this ‘anti English’ thing is all about control.
You must love your ‘coloniser’ and cheer them on when they play football.
Did this sort of thing happen in the former colonies?
Was everyone forced to sing ‘God Save our Coloniser’
It’s similar to what’s happening with ‘transphobia’
That too is all about control.
If you are not happy with the governments decision about gender recognition then you are a ‘transphobe’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y2FuDY6Q4M
That is transphobic!
Back in the day it would have been sexist but now it’s transphobic.
Mark Boyle says:
4 December, 2022 at 9:27 pm
At least “Ricky” doesn’t at all get hyper bitter and twisted over anything as petty as a game of football, because that would truly be tragic beyond measure …
If the number of Scots who were tragically obsessed with football got as animated about the future of their their country we’d already be independent.
I do tend to agree with Robert Louis @ 7.09 am though: England winning the World Cup would probably scunner enough Scots at the thought of decades of 1966-esque triumphalism that the majority for independence would be a shoe in!
@Robert Louis –
Makes you wonder sure enough – would the average English punter be happy to see Scotland independent in exchange for getting their hands on the WC again?
😉
The SNP at Westminster, a.k.a the Parcel o Rogues’ – bought and sold…etc.
Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Is it not the case that a huge number of Scots who are ‘tragically obsessed’ with football are 100% Unionist.
Any evidence that the others are not animated by the idea of Scottish independence?
OT That dependable dangler of serial guff and bluff, devo-pusher Gordie Broon, has been warmed up and wheeled out again this morning. Just heard him interviewed on Today.
Thought I’d been transported back to 2014. Same auld pish.
Experimenting with ‘Way Back Machine’ using this article
https://archive.ph/vu1SV
I didn’t have much success. I probably need further research.
Anyway I decided to post the above. It’s not about football but not everyone is interested in football.
The article is called
Concern at lack of guidance on accommodating transgender hospital patients
In 2003 Nicola Sturgeon, SNP’s then health spokeswoman, said “mixed-sex wards should be a thing of the past”. The Scottish executive promised to end mixed-sex wards by April 2002 but there were still 34 the following year. The potential risks of mixed-sex wards were highlighted in 2000 when an 83-year-old woman died a week after allegedly being assaulted by a male patient on her ward at the Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy, Fife.
To make mixed sex wards a thing of the past all you do is get men to self-id as women and hey presto it’s sorted. Sturgeon says ‘transwomen are women’.
What’s the problem?
@Joe 2.49 am
The thing is although you are right with respect to the fanciful “Scotland as colony” meme, the fact that Ireland, which WAS subject to real colonial oppression as the Spiked article you linked to mentions, now far exceeds Scotland and Northern Ireland in terms of relative wealth can only really be explained as an outcome of being an independent state with its hands on all the levers of power.
Pandering to the colonial narrative for the SNP (and some others) is just the gobbets of red meat they throw to the ranters on the fringes of the movement in a vain attempt to keep them occupied and allow them to sit on the well upholstered behinds for as long as possible.
They’re not going to swap the certainty of cosy sinecures in Westminster and the devolved government which they hope will stretch years into the future, for the uncertainties of plebiscitary elections and trying to make the case for and forge a pro-independence majority in the short to medium term.
Although it’s true the Irish have to pay for some of their health care, and spend a paltry 0.3% of GDP on defence, I have a feeling that in current circumstances if you asked most ordinary Scots if they’d prefer to be more like Ireland or more like the Tories vision of Global Britain “Empire v0.2” they’d opt for the former.
Do we not do that here in the UK?
ie national insurance, dental costs, cost of eye exam/specs & in England cost of prescriptions.
I never did get an answer to the question as to the definition of a colony?
Gibraltar is a colony.
What is the difference between Gibraltar & Scotland?
Ruby says:
Thewliss will win. One word: vagina.
That is transphobic!
Back in the day it would have been sexist but now it’s transphobic.’
A meaningless and ludicrous statement. It’s only sexist insofar as Sturgeon hates men. As for trans…ah, cannae even be bothered wasting more words. Feel free not to respond to me anymore.
And as if on cue…three….two…one…
I am aware that I am free to respond to whoever I want until such times as I get banned.
Do you know if when you are ‘placed on pre-moderation for personal abuse’ if you get a warning?
Would you like me not to respond to you anymore?
What I said in my post was the truth.
Geri
If you truly are interested in myth, deal with the myth that Scotland could have stayed in the EU, after the Brexit vote, on the same terms and conditions that the UK enjoyed, prior to the Brexit vote.
And try to do so without resorting to personal abuse. Cos that doesn’t help you in any way.
Over a million Scots used their democratic right to vote Leave. And no doubt a fair few south of the border did too. Show us some respect, even if you don’t agree with us.
Feel free to try to make a case for why iScotland, given the T’s & C’s likely to be on offer, should join the EU. By all means extol the ability of young Scots to fuck off abroad for whatever reason. Also extol the ability of penniless Eastern Europeans to come here, depress wages, and elevate housing costs.
And for Breeks, see if the EU will do anything about increasing the font size on sauce bottles, making them easier to read.
Here’s a tactic for the new SNP Leader at Westminster…at ever opportunity, whether in the house or to the Media, ask “When will the good people of England get a vote on THEIR Independence?”
Brexit tactics, divide and conquer and let them force the split issue rather than fighting our ignored cause down there.
And will Flynn be de-selected?
Andy Ellis
There was an innarestin article on Unherd recently about how most of what made the Irish Republic culturally and politically unique is disappearing as it dissolves itself in the EU.
As you write though, most Irish probably would not want to turn the clock back.
Still, given the justification for many Scots on here for Indy is that we would get our government, culture, legal system and languages back, the simultaneous enthusiasm (sometimes even in the same people) for dissolution in the EU is intriguing.
But, explicable in terms of personal financial gain. Principles are fine, but money talks louder.
Why I get so much stick for stating that the key to Indy is to show us the money beats me. Never a day goes by without somebody posting about dosh. It really is a no-brainier.
I met Alison Thewliss when we were both canvassing for the SNP many moons ago; she was an SNP Glasgow councillor and one of the SNP MP candidates.
I was introduced to her by a mutual colleague and so tried to make conversation with her. She blanked me.
First impressions: ignorant, rude and unfriendly.
So different from my constituency SNP MSP, who is so chatty and friendly to your face. But does not want to know you if you ask him to do his job to help you and there are no self-promotion publicity photos involved.
He only ever appeared at canvassing long enough to get his photo taken then would disappear.
Ruby says:
5 December, 2022 at 9:16 am
Curious says:
5 December, 2022 at 9:06 am
Do you know if when you are ‘placed on pre-moderation for personal abuse’ if you get a warning?
No, you don’t know until you suddenly can’t post. I made ONE personally abusive post (my bad, apologies Stu) after being subjected to repeated personal abuse from ‘Ricky’ and that was it. There was certainly no warning or even a teensy hint that responding ti my attackers woukd result in a ban.
So it all seems a bit random. You, Ruby, seem to be especialy privio ged – you can cunt people until the cows come home. Maybe your subscription is much bigger than mine, maybe Stu just doesn’t like me very much for some reason.
Anyway, I am afraid it all feels a bit random – or possibly personal? I have defended Wings all over the place, and will continue to spread Stu’s forensic insights wherever possible, but below the line seems to be a badly moderated binfire, worse than before the Return.
I doubt if you will see this, Ruby, as Stu appears to have no intention of approving comments by those on ‘pre-moderadtion’, and frankly I doubt he has the time.
“The Scottish Prison Service (SPS) is facing criticism over a decision to send a trans woman paedophile to an all-female jail.
Around 60 protesters gathered outside Cornton Vale to demonstrate against the “outrageous and completely inappropriate” transfer of Katie Dolatowski to the prison near Stirling.”
“Dolatowski, 22, was born male but identifies as female. In 2018, she was banned from having contact with children after sexually assaulting a ten-year-old girl in supermarket toilets in Kirkcaldy.
That attack came just weeks after she targeted another girl at an Asda store in Dunfermline.”
This is the real SNP in action. Forget the indy party, that died years ago.
And for the record: the Scottish Prison Service adopted the trans policy under Alex Salmond’s Scottish Government of 2014.
So, this did not start with Nicola Sturgeon. The SNP were already going down that neo-liberal path under Alex Salmond’s leadership.
Andy Ellis says:
5 December, 2022 at 7:53 am
If the number of Scots who were tragically obsessed with football got as animated about the future of their their country we’d already be independent.
I do tend to agree with Robert Louis @ 7.09 am though: England winning the World Cup would probably scunner enough Scots at the thought of decades of 1966-esque triumphalism that the majority for independence would be a shoe in!
Winnie Ewing horsed it at Hamilton in 1967 specifically thanks to 1966 And All That. But trying to explain such long term game plan thinking around here to certain elements is like trying to herd cats. Some don’t want to be led to “the promised land”, like Wee Radge Joe in Viz they’d much sooner rant and seethe at an endless sea of enemies demanding they go back – sort of King Cnut at Saltcoats!
Ruby @8:53
One difference between Gibraltar and Scotland is that, had it allowed England its independence earlier, Scotland would have stayed in the EU on the same terms and conditions that the UK enjoyed prior to the Brexit vote.. all whilst allowing proud Scots Brits to remain so because Scotland would have become the defacto inheritor of UK state privilege.
This is not the case with Gibraltar (which is a colony) although it presumably could have been kept in EU along with NI, shared with England, or even leased to Spain/ USA under such a scenario (depending on the post indy geopolitical objective).
@McLaurin
OT That dependable dangler of serial guff and bluff, devo-pusher Gordie Broon, has been warmed up and wheeled out again this morning. Just heard him interviewed on Today.
Thought I’d been transported back to 2014. Same auld pish.
Aye, yer bang on there: it’s like Groundhog Day. If we had any media worth its salt of course they’d be asking the Gordinator what happened to the ‘near Home Rule’ promised in the Vow, or how they were going to reconcile devolution for the English regions with more power for the existing devolved governments and the proposed new upper chamber.
The Labour Party will spend and age watering down the already thin gruel proposed by Brown, then try and use it to attract “soft Yes” voters to switch on the promise of super turbo devo-max with bells on.
Of course if they were at all serious the starting point for those trying to square the circle of devolving power and keeping the union intact should be to start with a blank piece of paper and say that anything other than defence and foreign affairs should be devolved unless there’s an overwhelming argument for union involvement, and that Scotland’s shared services would be paid for with an annual subvention. Of course they wouldn’t do that because it would give the lie to narrative that Scotland is subsidised by RUK rather than the other way round.
“Proper” home rule would also allow for a differential relationship with the the EU. There’s nothing inherently implausible about giving the same deal to Scotland as was on offer to NI: it’s a political choice not to do so, and a determination on the part of British nationalist to appease loyalists in NI and Scotland, because they know they’re far more likely to be dependent on Ulster loyalists politically for a majority in Westminster tho an they are on Scottish unionists, who will ultimately toe the line as we saw with Ruth the Mooth’s Tories at the time of May’s brexit negotiations.
Anything else?
Wait a minute does Scotland not own 1/8 of Gibraltar?
Who do you think would pay the highest price Spain or Little England.
Then there’s the Falklands that’s also a colony.
@John Main
Whether you like it or not the overwhelming majority of Scots are pro EU. They don’t accept your narrative that independence in the EU is pretendy independence, or just swapping one coercive union for another.
That’s partly because it’s a deeply flawed and disingenuous argument in its own terms, but also simply because the brexiteer narrative is irredeemably tainted in the eyes of that overwhelming majority.
Ireland is of course just the most obvious – and for Scotland apposite – example of the relative benefits of being inside the EU and EEA. The undoubted economic damage inflicted on the UK and Scotland specifically by brexit is for most an unarguable case now. Brexiteers had their chance to demonstrate that the benefits of the EU were outweighed by the disadvantages and have demonstrably and signally failed to do so. Opponents of the EU have lost the argument in Scotland.
What the future path for an independent Scotland will be is of course a matter for future negotiations. There is no precedent for our situation and like it or not we will find ourselves starting our journey as an independent nation outside the EU. It’s vanishingly unlikely though that the EU would do anything other than bend over backwards to make Scottish accession the easiest and fastest on record, assisted no doubt by the good offices of friends like the Irish. Westminster has few allies left in Europe who would be willing to pander to them, irrespective of heightened security and defence co-operation due to the current war.
I didn’t notice any dissolution of the unique nature of Irish cultural or political life last time I was there: indeed I’d argue that both in NI as it moves towards a nationalist majority and integration with the Republic and in Scotland with the prospect of independence, that being part of a limited supra national organisation like the EU is the only thing that guarantees the long term preservation of such unique qualities.
I don’t expect you and other Eurosceptics and brexiteers to agree with that assessment of course, but your alternative is very much a minority sport in Scottish terms.
Has anyone on here said why Scotland is not a colony?
I’m interested in comparing the reason they say Scotland is not a colony with the reason the UN state Gibraltar is a colony.
Correct me if I’m wrong but is this not a repeat of a number of earlier posts?
John Main.
I’ll keep it short.
Norther Ireland. Currently enjoying the single market but not a member of the EU.
No one cares about the million who lost an election. Over a million won.
All 32 councils. 62%
Unless you are now Mystic Meg – you don’t know what agreement an independent Scotland will choose to have with the EU. That’d be for the electorate to decide.
@Ruby
Easy way to differentiate would be to compare and contrast the implication of the final word of the respective international documents:
Treaty of Union, and
Treaty of Utrecht
That alone might entitle England to 50% of Gibraltar but the fact that actors for the Queen of Scots were signatory to both treaties must have further implications as to title – over and above that which might have been inferred simply from Scotland being the successor state in the EU.
Re:Gibraltar
Gibraltar doesn’t send any MPs to the House of Commons. It is not part of the UK – it is owned by the UK, current official status is that of a British Overseas Territory, but it is not a constituent part of the UK in the way that the home nations are.
It was taken by an Anglo-Dutch fighting force in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession when at least half of Europe was fighting over whether or not an heir to the French throne could also accede to the Spanish throne, hence a lot of the fighting being concentrated in Spain.
When Britain finally withdrew from the war in the process of negotiating the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht with its allies, Gibraltar was ceded to them permanently as part of the terms of said Treaty. So it was taken by conquest initially and confirmed by international agreement, I suppose you could say.
I don’t know what the situation would be with Scottish part-ownership. On the one hand, the seizure of Gibraltar predates the Union of 1707, but on the other it could be that that subsequent union entitled Scoland to a proportionate share of that ownership, especially as of course the Utrecht treaty does post-date the 1707 union.
Ruby 7:35
Re ‘its about control’
Absolutely spot on. Every World Cup. The same shit. In every pub. In every forum. ‘Why don’t you cheer us on? Whhhhaaaaa..whhhhaaaaa as they go on to trash every establishment, property, car, flight on the way home.
They’re like the pampers brigade on speed.
& I may add..it’s not just Scots.
It’s every country!
They practically declare a state of emergency when they know they’re coming.
@Andy Ellis
Thanks for your response.
I don’t agree with much of what you write. That’s fine by me. The EU argument will continue, of course. But they can’t be continued on the basis of what was in the past, pre-Brexit, the caravan has moved on.
Some quibbles:
“overwhelming majority” Define overwhelming. Link to recent poll. Explain how the T’s & C’s of iScotland’s EU membership was explained to those polled.
“bend over backwards for iScotland” Really? Is that just Scottish exceptionalism writ large? Mind, if it’s true, we all need to be asking ourselves why. The EU is not by any stretch a charitable organisation. Why, exactly, would it want to fast-track us, unless it stands to benefit large by our membership?
“I didn’t notice” Others do, write about it, and have their writings published and paid for. Just as others write about the loss of national sovereignty in Italy, and the loss of democratic accountability in Greece, due to EU strictures and control.
I take on board what you say about the EU being the key to Scottish prosperity though, even if it does kinda torpedo all arguments that iScotland could ever have been big enough or rich enough to go it alone. Not a good look for a pro-Indy site though.
But as you say, I am in a minority here. So what? It shows I have escaped the colonialist cringe. I want iScotland to stand proud, to reject the globalist elite, to be run for Scots by Scots. You insist most Scots don’t want that.
Shame.
Geri
Thanks for keeping it short.
I would refrain from regarding all past referenda as absolute and binding in perpetuity.
Maybes take some time to think that one through?
@John Main 1.03 pm
“overwhelming majority” Define overwhelming. Link to recent poll. Explain how the T’s & C’s of iScotland’s EU membership was explained to those polled.
All the polls I’ve ever seen had pro-EU voting intention at around the 2/3 mark. That’s overwhelming in my view. From memory the more recent polling actually showed an increase in the % who would prefer EU membership to > 70%. Doubtless you can find the evidence yourself: I’m not here to be your google chimp. The minutiae of the membership details are unlikely to phase most of those who are in favour: again. probably not what you want to hear for your own ideological reasons, but most of those in favour are not going to switch from being pro EU to anti EU because any future deal isn’t perfect.
“bend over backwards for iScotland” Really? Is that just Scottish exceptionalism writ large?
Not really no. I’m sure there will be an element within the EU who will be more than happy to stick it to the brexiteers and the little Englanders, but the EU has lots of reasons to encourage Scottish membership and none that I can really envision to make it hard.
They’ll benefit because Scotland will be another small, relatively well run democracy added to the fold which will be a net contributor to the EU, has huge energy resources and a strategic location. Even if full EU membership isn’t the ultimate outcome, I’m sure single market membership or a Norway style deal would also be seen as a good option.
“I didn’t notice” Others do, write about it, and have their writings published and paid for. Just as others write about the loss of national sovereignty in Italy, and the loss of democratic accountability in Greece, due to EU strictures and control.
Seems a bit over egged to me. Just as de Gaulle is famously quoted as asking how one could be expected to govern a country with 246 varieties of cheese just in the case of France, the Cassandra like predictions of a European super state leading to everywhere in the EU being assimilated seems wildly exaggerated to me. If anything, I’d see more potential for the dissolution of some of the larger entities and emergence of more of the current regions as independent actors within a confederation or “Europe of the States” rather than a “United States of Europe”.
…even if it does kinda torpedo all arguments that iScotland could ever have been big enough or rich enough to go it alone. Not a good look for a pro-Indy site though.
More assertion I think. I know you and others are very wedded to the assertion that anyone in the EU isn’t really independent, but it’s not a worldview that many accept. In the end it’s a faith based position: you won’t accept that even if an overwhelming majority disagreed with you that you are wrong. Norway, Iceland and Greenland aren’t more independent than Sweden or Denmark or Finland just because they’re outside the EU.
Similarly, Scotland becoming part of the EU doesn’t signify an acceptance that it could never have survived alone: that’s just a throw away hyperbolic assertion on your part informed more by your ideological blinkers than by any rational analysis or argument. It’s true that circumstances have changed significantly since 2014, and that may colour what choices an independent Scotland makes at the point it becomes independent and has to negotiate its place in the world. Whether it choses full EU membership, a Norway style deal, or something different remains to be seen.
I think it’s a real stretch for anyone – even convinced Eurosceptics – to think that the relationship will be one of splendid isolation however. Pining for a regime that rejects globalist elites sounds a bit like a rather fanciful call for Scotland to be some autarchic “camp of the saints”. That may indeed be the aim for some Scots, often those on the more extreme fringes of the left and right, but I doubt they represent the majority, anymore than the usual suspects in here represent the general readership or the independence movement as a whole.
Did someone say state of emergency?
I see elsewhere that Moore County in north Carolina has declared a curfew for rest of the week and a state of emergency following (firearm assisted) vandalism on a couple of electricity substations.
Not sure if North Carolingans will get an automatic whitewash* like Canadians did for the Privy council’s war measures act but the reason cited by governor Roy Cooper for the state of emergency (a serious attack on critical infrastructure) should be enough to grab attention of anyone still wondering what liblabcon was up to around the time north sea oil got discovered (or even when substantial completion of A1/A9 motorway can be expected)
*ie as to how on earth there can be insufficient redundancy (other than of the workforce) built into such systems
Thanks for the answer Jeremy.
So is it just that Gibraltar doesn’t send MPs to Westminster and nothing to do with them being oppressed.
It’s all quite confusing.
Gibraltar have ‘international rights to self-determination’ but Scotland doesn’t because it sends MPs to Westminster where we are denied rights to self-determination.
how about an SNP double bluff. Holyrood election standing WM Mp’s in certain seats, to sit in Holyrood as a MSP 75% and WM as a MP 25% .
Yoons couldnt cry foul as Dross already does it.
Save a lot of embarrassing PMQ’s.
But the pension posse will not have that.
@ Ruby at 2:46 pm
Indeed, if you can exert a mere 0.7% influence as an “equal” partner in the UK Parliament where all major powers reside, then you are not eligible to be classed as a colony.
Some might have thought if we were truly equal then that percentage would be nearer the 50% mark…
https://indyposterboy.scot/59-versus-533/
Dan says:5 December, 2022 at 5:01 pm
Indeed, if you can exert a mere 0.7% influence as an “equal” partner in the UK Parliament where all major powers reside, then you are not eligible to be classed as a colony.
Some might have thought if we were truly equal then that percentage would be nearer the 50% mark…
————————————————————–
Hahaha You actually think Scotland’s 5 million population of the UK should have 50% of the Voting power of the whole UK’s 70 Million population ? LOLOLOLOLOL
What we have right now are Constituencies like Angus MacNeil’s in the Western Isles has a MP representative of its own with 26K voters where a London MP with 66K Voters in a constituency still only has One MP. Do you hear them complaining about that ? That’s what equal partners means along with Scotland’s 8.1% of the UK population currently receiving 9.2% of the whole UK spending budget. (Most people know this because the SNP themselves publish it on the Scot Gov Website.)
“Ruby says:5 December, 2022 at 2:46 pm
So is it just that Gibraltar doesn’t send MPs to Westminster and nothing to do with them being oppressed.
Gibraltar have ‘international rights to self-determination’ but Scotland doesn’t because it sends MPs to Westminster where we are denied rights to self-determination.
It’s all quite confusing.”
——————————————————
Its not at all confusing if you understood the issue , the Minority trying to tell the whole of Scotland what to do isn’t Democracy is it ? https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/less-than-a-third-want-independence-referendum-next-year-poll-suggests-3684893
The route to self determination is when the majority actually show that they want one. So go out and Campaign for that.
“Asked in reference to Gove’s comments to outline what he felt would show there was a “settled will” for a new referendum, Jack pointed to a figure of “60 percent” of Scots.
“If you consistently saw 60 percent of the population wanting a referendum — not wanting independence but wanting a referendum [to take place] — and that was sustained over a reasonably long period, then I would acknowledge that there was a desire for a referendum,” Jack said. “Anyone can see that.” https://www.politico.eu/article/scotland-referendum-60-percent/
Its also what the SNP also said they wanted before another Referendum. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13877169.snp-want-polls-show-60-support-independence-whole-year-calling-referendum/
Okay Joe, seeing you’re a self proclaimed stats guy, can you explain why Scotland has been in an “equal” union for over 300 years, yet there has been considerable population growth disparity between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland over the course of the Union with all the economic advantages that gave the KoE.
KoE approximately 5 times the population of KoS at start, but that has grown to approximately 10 times now.
It doesn’t look like London Rule has implemented the political will to address this ongoing situation.
@Andy Ellis says:5 December, 2022 at 1:59 pm
Thanks for your response.
Keep that up and you might persuade me to your way of thinking 🙂
None of us know how the EU is going to pan out. The major economic and political drivers, Germany & France, have taken some terrible decisions over the past 20 years or so, and these decisions have delivered them to the very bad place they are in now.
Unable to provide sufficient energy for their people, and unable to defend their peoples and their allies from armed aggression.
And reliant on the American hegemon for significant portions of their defense and energy needs.
Why iScotland might want to immerse itself in that shitshow is an enigma, explicable to me only in that voters are usually years behind the curve on everything. That is why savvy politicos fool them time after time.
But it’s all moot for now. And it will continue to be so until we can all see a real chance of Indy in a short to medium term timeframe. By the time the next shot at Indy comes around (January 2025, if the SNP have their way), when the SNP and SLAB will be slugging it out, the EU will have changed significantly from what it is now.
Just as it is now significantly different to what it was in 2014 and 2016.
Tempus Fugit.
@Dan says:5 December, 2022 at 6:00 pm
It’s not the 10 to 1 disparity that bothers me.
It’s the 5 to 1 disparity back in 1707 that gobsmacks.
That was never going to end well. And here we are.
Shame you didn’t answer my question. Not to worry apart from Jeremy no one else has even tried.
What do you mean by
‘The route to self determination is when the majority actually show that they want one.’
Did you mean in order to be granted permission for a referendum by our colonial masters we must prove that the majority want one.
Are you sure? What % of the Scottish electorate wanted a referendum in 2014?
Do you ever think these guys at Westminster just make it up as they go along?
Now is not the time! Once in a generation! Only when we think 60% want a referendum! Only when it’s been shown 60% want a referendum for at least a decade. Then back to now is not the time then ‘once in a generation’ and round and round we go.
Were the polls to show support for ending the union to be consistently above 60% then yes the referendum would be inevitable – the fact they are not is due to the incredible amount of energy the SNP leadership have put into maintaining it around the 50% mark.
It’s population control.
Hundreds of thousands forced out. (No opportunity, nowhere to live, no professional work cause they speak funny – takes Yes vote with them)
Hundreds of thousands coming in. (Nice we mansion as a holiday/ retirement home, good elderly care & standard of living – tell the family loads of opportunity – brings a naw vote with them – hates the peasants who spoil their view)
Joe 50% each.
London is a region in England. Last I looked it had 71 MPs.
Scotland is a COUNTRY & co signatory to the Union – it has 59 MPs.
It should be 50% each or let go of our immigration control & maybe we could have a total of 555 seats too!
See above. Who awards themselves these seats? Who controls our population? That’ll be the coloniser who is always rigging the game for the house to always win. That’s what they do.
Oh, and to own huge swathes of land anonymously so no fecker can build cause that many nobody stops being traced at the Cayman Islands.
Another thing that spooked the feck out of Brexiteers. New EU directives on who owns all these lands & a register to declare ownership…..fuuuuuuuck! Abort ship! Abort ship! Lol Andy Wightman was uncovering before he was bullied out – it’s tax avoidance, criminality & money laundering. Huge prime locations unable to be traced to an owner.
Ruby Gibraltar – didn’t the colonisers ignore int law regards calling a ref there?
Surely independence is now a minor issue.
Shouldn’t we be celebrating the SNP’s great victory of allowing ladies with operational penises into women’s dressing rooms?
I don’t know anything about that.
I do know it’s very easy for Spain to cut them and basically turn Gibraltar into a island. The big problem is their airport runway which is already pretty small when Spain cuts them off the runway is dangerously small.
Franco did this back in the 70’s.
It’s quite an interesting situation where you have a rock stuck onto the end of Spain which belongs to Britain.
Like lots of places (probably them all) in that part of Spain Gibraltar is Arabic.
I find that quite funny as people believe Gibraltar is very British. Gib. GB.
Jabal ??riq meaning the mountain of Tariq. Jabal Tariq was a Moorish invander who conquered that big rock way back in the 7th century.
Then these Arabs went on to conquer the whole of the south of Spain.
They were there for centuries but got a bit complacent and did expect the Spanish Inquisition. Nobody expect the Spanish Inquisition.
Correction
They were there for centuries but got a bit complacent and did not expect the Spanish Inquisition. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
So, if I am following the “logic” correctly, give Gibraltar back to Moorland.
Along with a good chunk of Spain.
[Sigh]
I guess if anybody was conducting a rational dialogue, we could discuss Ceuta and Melilla at this point, but hey ho.
@ John Main
I guess if anybody was conducting a rational dialogue, we could discuss Ceuta and Melilla at this point, but hey ho.
Yeah, good luck with that one! Perhaps things are on the up and the level of BTL discourse will improve however? Some of the usual suspects certainly seem to have either piped down or been told to get in the sea by “da management”, although I see Gregor is still spamming the place with his links. Same old same old: I don’t see why anyone thinks it appropriate for half the comments in the sidebar to be Gregor’s irrelevant links. It’s most odd.
As for your earlier post…..
Why iScotland might want to immerse itself in that shitshow is an enigma, explicable to me only in that voters are usually years behind the curve on everything. That is why savvy politicos fool them time after time.
I suspect partly because a large segment of the Scottish population does actually believe in the “European project” after decades of it being seen as basically a good thing. The ideological stance of those promoting brexit, the experience of the process, and the economic dislocations caused by it have hardly enamoured most Scots to the alternatives to the EU on offer.
I don’t think it’s true that EU states can’t defend themselves or provide for the energy needs of their various peoples. The current situation is the result of decades of policy decisions: of course not all of them are right in retrospect, but those pointing out the flaws have to explain what the alternatives are. A European defence identity which isn’t reliant on US support would necessitate much higher defence spending by EU states, and a level of co-operation in both defence procurement (to drive down costs of building the systems we’d need without relying on the US or others) and strategic/political policy that many would find unpalatable.
NATO and reliance on the US as a strategic guarantor and partner might not be perfect, but what’s the realistic alternative?
Similarly with energy policy: it was always a crap idea to be over reliant on an unstable and unreliable “partner” like Russia, but what were the realistic alternatives at the time the decisions were made? More nuclear power? More investment in alternative energy sources and cutting consumption or making our homes and businesses more energy efficient? As is so often the case, the desire to take the cheap, easy option trumped any approach that necessitated forward planning, investment and higher costs.
There was – and is – an argument that trying to “do business” and lock unstable states like Russia in to a mutually beneficial relationship is a good thing, and will be an engine for political change and co-operation. That was essentially the argument for detente in the 1970’s and 80’s, as opposed to trying to outcompete the Soviet block and basically break its back economically. Most of the US right / neo-cons believe that the reason the USSR folded was because we ditched detente, and forced the USSR to spend so much on defence that it broke their system, as they couldn’t provide a tolerable standard of living and compete strategically with the West.
I dunno about you, but given the alternatives on offer I’d still prefer an independent Scotland to be a member of the EU and of NATO. I suspect that would be the majority view, but who knows by the time independence actually happens? I doubt any polling carried out now would show majority support for being outside both organisations. It’d be interesting to see the questions asked in one of Rev Stu’s polls.
Of course, even if that showed overwhelming support for membership of both organisations, those opposed would still insist it was a bad idea, which is something they are perfectly entitled to believe of course.
What’s stopping you?
PS I’m pretty sure claiming I am not conducting a rational dialogue is personal abuse.
Can you point out where I said that Gibraltar & a good chunk of Spain should be given back to ‘Moorland’
You just make stuff up in order to discredit others.
Actually it would be more honest if you took a leaf out of Ellis’ book and just called me a ‘window licker’.
Nobody is being fooled by your sneaky way of abusing others.
Careful you might be told to pipe down or get in the sea by “da management”
Stu is definitely not as thick as you think the rest of us are.
I do believe Stu is aware of Gregor’s posts probably not a good idea to be going on and on about it. I’m sure Stu will decide what to do about then. Personally I don’t care and I don’t understand why you are making such a fuss about it. Is it a power thing? Are you sights now set on Stu?
I’m guessing you are once again on the naughty step.
How could you avoid it. Calling someone a ‘window licker’ is pretty blatant abuse.
Is that three warning you’ve had now?
Some might be asking why you are still here?
How many strikes before you are out?