Not so fast
Posted on
September 14, 2019 by
Chris Cairns
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14 09 19 08:56
Not so fast | speymouth
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15 09 19 22:15
Wings Over Scotland – Bairns Of Tamson
Ignored
Looks like Bojo may not have the strength to close the door. They should have let us go in 14 . Marvellous cartoon Chris.
Absolutely brilliant
Is that Lion or Lying that’s coming to kick Bojo the Clown’s backside?
Great work as usual Chris!
Checking propaganda on the EBC.
Government to give £95 Million to High St UK
To help them compete with on-line sales killing off the shopkeepers .
Nicky Morgan, the one who looks like Eccles from the Goons, acts like too,
Let’s the cat out the bag as this UK project money will be shared across 69 ENGLISH
towns and Cities?
I presume she preempts Scottish unrest by saying the money will come
From English Heritage?
Well where and how are ENGLISH Heritage getting all this spare cash?
I prefer the more tactile form of shopping but for those about to shop on-line
Will they pause to consider the travel time and cost now better value now
That the High Street has a new pavement and shop front?
I found it amusing the streets shown to be in need of regeneration were in Croydon !
Remember that the Scottish HMRC jobs are to be transferred down there and that’s
Where Bojo suggested that he would always invest a £pound there before Scotland.
Well is the first statement that he has ever made that was truthful?
Money Tree must be financial Forrest or possible exploding debt levels to gather Bojo English votes?
Remember the Tories pledged to wipe out UK Debt with austerity measures within their first parliament scheduled To end in 2015?
What a F***** Whopper that one was!
Well done that man!
Glad I’m going north next week as English people are going to learn what in their history they were never taught in school and many of them will be none to pleased. A Scots accent will be about as welcome as the Scottish pound in London.
Excellent cartoon. Sums things up. They wanted us to stay – I think that was David Cameron’s words, as tears slowly slipped from his eyes – so let’s make them suffer in each and every way.
Of course, the solution is, as ever, staring Lying dictator De Pfeffle Johnson, by allowing both Scotland and N.Ireland to remain in the single market and customs union, as a compromise.
Much easier for trade regulation and NO backstop and NO hard border in Ireland etc.. since the Scottish border is 96 miles long, whereas the Irish border is 310 miles long.
But aside from being a recognised and compulsive liar, dictator Alexander Boris De Pfeffle Johnson (who incidentally was born in New York, USA), doesn’t, as we should all expect, do common sense.
Thanks Chris =)
That is uplifting!
Credit to Scotland where credit is due 🙂
Excellent Chris.
The lying Britnats at WM wanted Scotland to ‘stay’, but only for keeping in the doghouse, the kennels, thrown scraps, no place for you in the big house Scotland.
Hope Scotland gets to cr*p on the carpet of the big house very soon, then leave the place for good, a steaming stink for them to clean up themselves. The Britnats deserve it, thieving liars. Grrrrrr.
Something I have been thinking over all this week, is this. If it had been a purely English court which had ruled the closure of parliament unlawful, instead of Scotland’s highest court, the court of session in Edinburgh, would parliament have been re-opened?
I think it would. But, because it was a judgement from a Scottish court, it was not treated by London or the media in the same way as if it had been a ruling from the high court in London.
That in itself, I think sums up nicely just how skewed and useless this treaty we have with England, actually is.
It will be rather interesting whichever way the pretendy English ‘supreme’ court (as founded by Tony Blair a few years ago) decides on Tuesday. Either they uphold the very strong judgement (and the full written judgement really does condemn Bojo) of Scotland’s three law lord’s sitting in Scotland’s REAL supreme court (as founded by Scotland’s King James V, in 1532), or they go against those three law lords, and, effectively, Scots law. Will they rule English law or Scots law as supreme. I think we all already know, which it will be.
Either way, it will be interesting to watch.
On the other side of that door is the lions cage
That foot is firmly wedged in the door, give it up de Piffle, the game’s a bogey.
Hamish, ably assisted by Joanna cherry and Jo Maugham, are kicking the door open.
Don’t want to be picky, but shouldn’t liar De Pfeffle’s shirt tail be hanging out?
Chris Cairns needs a donation of appreciation. For inspiration. Crowd funded new book.
Starlaw 7.35am. Yes since the scottish court ruling i’ve noticed a bit more unpleasantness in attitude towards me and snide remarks. Hurry up Scotland and vote for indy, then we can come back home. Otherwise no point.
@ Effigy – the £95m for regenerating English city centres will line the pockets of property developers, construction companies and consultancy firms who, in turn, donate to the Tory Party.
It’s a way of channeling public taxes, Scottish taxes too, into the pockets of wealthy people. It creates jobs in those industries which, in turn, create tax returns inc VAT.
Remember Boris’ Bridge over the Thames which cost £40+ million before being abandoned. HS2 is another fine example. I’ve forgotten how many millions have already been spent and it too may never be completed.
There is nothing new about this process.
The excellent website Random Scottish History has newspaper articles form the 19th Century which detail the vast revenue loss to Scotland which the Union has always entailed. Scroll down for a detailed breakdown of Scottish losses through over charging and underfunding.
https://randomscottishhistory.com/2019/09/14/financial-cost-to-scotland-of-the-union/
Robert Louis says:
14 September, 2019 at 8:02 am
Something I have been thinking over all this week, is this. If it had been a purely English court which had ruled the closure of parliament unlawful, instead of Scotland’s highest court, the court of session in Edinburgh, would parliament have been re-opened?
I think it would. But, because it was a judgement from a Scottish court, it was not treated by London or the media in the same way as if it had been a ruling from the high court in London….
Telling question, which really just confirms the constitutional impracticality of the Union, why should an English Parliament be bound by a ruling from a Scottish Court with no jurisdiction in England? Scots are Sovereign, but only over Scotland.
However, the Scottish Court could, I think, rule over the “Scottish” Monarch’s roll in proroguing Parliament, but that’s a pecking order question… The Scottish people are sovereign, and constitutionally above “our” monarch, but then there is the question whether “our” Monarch is higher or lower than our elected council or parliament. That may very well be a determined hierarchy already, but I don’t know of it. I suspect Holyrood was constructed in the image of Westminster, and is thus an instrument of the monarch… but I don’t know.
But to swing the other way, if the English aspect of Westminster Parliament does disrespect the adjudication of Scottish Courts, that too is a dilemma for the Union to resolve, because it is contrary to the Act of Union. But, Westminster will be, or rather will see themselves as off the hook if their Supreme Court comes to their rescue. Time is also on Westminster’s side, because every day which passes makes the suspension a little more academic anyway, but the dispute might continue beyond.
I would really like to see the Court of Session really flexing it’s Constitutional muscle to the ultimate destruction of the Union fallacy and contrivance, but Courts being Courts, they will likely go no further than answering the question they were asked.
This whole episode however might be a “dry run” for a Constitutional Stalking Horse to test the strength of the Union’s resolve and strategy to contest a “token” Constitutional Emergency, and reveal a path through the minefield for the main event, full on Constitutional challenge designed to secure the emancipation of our Sovereignty that is yet to come… I hope so.
The Union if you read it, is innocuous and doesn’t “seem” all that binding. From memory, nine or ten of the Articles of Union are about Tax laws that I think are obsolete or anodyne, and long since crumbled to dust. The practical and expedient side of the Union has negotiated it’s way past this obsolescence through subsequent legislation which was perhaps didn’t stir much controversy, paradoxically because the main concessions related to devolution, which suited Scotland. The terms of Union were thus “modified” by consensus, and let me stress the word consensus.
However the big difference now is that Scotland has infrastructure which gives it better status to contest and dispute Constitutional matters when there isn’t consensus… if we choose to. Westminster doesn’t hold both ends of the string anymore, effectively making bargains with itself, which is what devolved Parliament is; power devolved is power retained and all that. They cannot alter the Union unless we agree.
A constitutional dispute is much more serious for Westminster when it doesn’t hold both ends of the string, because Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is actually beyond it’s control, and only contained by the guile of the UK Establishment.
I don’t know anything, but it “feels” positive. It feels like we are maybe feeling our way towards a Constitutional challenge, – going canny, but jeezo, at long last going. I draw much more heart from this, than all the whispers a pond conjecture about a referendum long after Brexit.
What I am troubled by is the enigmatic secrecy. We could readily challenge the integrity of the Union with a plan that was accompanied by a procession of massed pipe bands, the Yes Bikers tearing up the car park, and 50,000 saltires in the streets… but I bow to others who might prefer more discretion and humility. The English in Westminster surely know we’re coming. That much isn’t a secret.
Listening to radio shortbread this morning, all news bulletins are heading up with the demo in George Square this morning. BBC are very definitely bigging this up BBC are playing the Sectarian Card even though Church of Scotland have stated that they see no Anti Protestant move to ban Sectarian marches in Glasgow today. Perhaps BBC have their own agenda.
Love the scruffy/dishevelled look of the arsehole trying to push the door shut.
Excellent cartoon, I love the angry face of the lion and the cute wig. But there are a few characters missing in that picture.
de Pfeffel may be the last one left pushing that door closed but surely as hell there were quite a few hands more there before, among them the monarch’s.
de Pfeffel may be the chosen one to take the fall and the whole blame but the blame is not all his. The other cowards very quickly took off the scene or are hiding in the shadows.
I find it outrageous than among the so called privy council who went to get the royal assent for the prorogation of parliament was the Leader of the Lords, another political reject, an unelected individual who does not represent anybody else than herself, her interests and those of who parachuted her onto the seat. Who on earth is that individual to recommend shutting the elected chamber of Westminster of which she is not even part of?
We should not forget the other 2 characters, Mogg and Mark Spencer. Mogg, Spencer and Evans were the ones that went to ask for the royal assent. Why are their names not plastered over the courts? Why is only de Pfeffel’s name mentioned? Why has the monarch been absolved so quickly? If she was given bad advice, why are the 3 stooges of the privy council still in their seats and posts?
There was no representation from Scotland whatsoever in that privy council asking for that prorogation so quite rightly one can only interpret such an action as a direct attempt to force absolute rule over Scotland.
But just a couple of days ago Wings were saying that the court case was abad idea. I’m confused.
AUOB rarely get a mention on BBC Scotland but here they are actively advertising an OO demonstration in advance, do you think they want a big turnout. Possibly even wanting a counter demonstration, with the hope of some violence, doesn’t matter how small it is, with the right camera angles it can be made look like a major battle.
Lord Lisvane will be quick to reintroduce his new Act of Union Bill in the House of Lords once the next session of the Westminster parliament gets underway.
I’m sure it will be viewed by some as an opportunity to put the Scots Judiciary and Holyrood on a weaker footing than exists at present.
Great cartoon.
They want to keep Scotland and its resources. They don’t want to have to accommodate meddling, troublesome, and assertive Scots. They are willing to put up with the docile, fawning, and cap-doffing North Britons.
@jfngw – you’re right. I can hardly believe it but the BBC are actively advertising OO marches and protests on their website. After quoting the Grand Master of the OO and not providing any “balance” from the other side, they go on to list the forthcoming flute band marches.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49690444
Without peer, Chris. Well done!
Everyone can clearly see that Johnson lies constantly and with an apparent indifference, born no doubt of his upbringing and his Etonian education.
Now think back to the Better Together Campaign which led up to Indy2014. Better Together had a simple strategy – to make enough voters in Scotland afraid of Independence.
To accomplish this, they told lie after lie after lie for two years. And, 5 years later, they are still at it. Yet, in contrast to Johnson’s lies over 2 months, the 7 years of Indy lies, are barely recognised by the general public.
That situation is primarily down to the BBC and the overwhelmingly Unionist press.
Indy14, like EU Ref 16, was lost through industrial scale lying. Both should be re-run. It is a true measure of the unfathomable depth of corruption in the UK, that a re-run will not happen, certainly not in Scotland, if Westminster has anything to do with it.
Democracy in the UK is dead. And so is truth and justice.
In these circumstances, in or out of the EU, there is no meaningful future for the UK.
The one thing left, still to be decided – is there a meaningful future for Scotland?
Outside of Independence, the answer is a certain No.
Breeks @ 9 am..& Tax laws crumbling to dust
Over and above fixing the terms for Brexit, a further interesting aspect of Scottish law deciding that it was illegal in principle to mislead the Crown is that, should the decision be over-ruled, tax evasion (misleading the crown) will become legal in principle, in Scotland as in England, thus making it easier for City of London based financial services to relocate to Scotland post independence. 🙂
obertknight says:
14 September, 2019 at 9:28 am
“Lord Lisvane will be quick to reintroduce his new Act of Union Bill in the House of Lords once the next session of the Westminster parliament gets underway”
He can introduce what he wants. He and no one in the HoL represents Scotland. They are all unelected individuals parachuted onto their seats by the English establishment to serve the interests of the English establishment.
We just need a bill to be passed in Holyrood, the only democratically elected parliament in the UK that is 100% elected by and that represents and speaks on behalf of the real sovereign of Scotland (its people), to reject that so call Act of Union in the same way the Scotland Parliament rejected triggering A50 and brexit.
The HoL is a 100% unelected chamber where the political party that holds over 80% of the FPTP seats in the Parliament of Scotland and close to 60% of Scotland’s seats in the HoC has no representation whatsoever. That chamber does therefore not represent or speak on behalf of Scotland at all.
Even if such act was passed in the HoC simply because MPs from the Kingdom of England voted for it, it does not mean Scotland has to accept it, in the same way that Scotland does not have to accept brexit when Scotland did not vote for it nor it gave its consent as an equal partner of this political union for it.
The first time you say NO is the hardest one. With a bit of practice confidence builds up and it will come more naturally. We are now quite experienced saying NO after the triggering of A50 without our consent, the theft of our powers without our consent, the broken promises, the bulldozing of the devolution settlement and of course the attempt by the FM of England, 3 stooges called themselves privy council and the monarch to impose absolute rule over Scotland for 5 weeks.
That document may call itself “Act of Union” but it is nothing of the sort. It is an attempt to subjugate Scotland and its laws while undermining the legitimate Treaty of Union. We should be on our marks and ready to say NO, loud and clear.
Oh, that’s awfa, awfa good.
Robert Louis Believe the Supreme Courts sits under Scots Law when it deals with a Scots case.
@robertkinight
I think any new act of union would need the approval from all the countries it encompasses individually. This would effectively turn them from a country into a province of England due to the size differential, woe betide the Scots if they voted for such a deal.
OT. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008mn4
DON’T MISS PROMS IN THE PARK – Live from Glasgow Green 7.30pm
LIVE ON BBC TV & RADIO
Live from Glasgow Green, Jamie MacDougall presents an evening of fabulous music performed by the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra and a selection of world-class soloists.
Topping the bill is Scottish singing legend Barbara Dickson who will be performing some of her classic tracks, and performers from a range of musical styles make this an evening with something for everyone.
Performing live with the BBC SSO, conducted by Stephen Bell, will be:
Scottish soprano Eleanor Dennis,
Violinist Stephanie Childress,
BBC Young Traditional Musician of 2019 Benedict Morris
and the Glasgow Youth Choir.
manandboy says:
Indeed. There’s a difference … in the first the lies were directed at Scots which is fine, in the second the lies were directed at the English which is ‘just not cricket’.
Their hypocrisy is astonishing….
“David Cameron: Johnson and Gove acted ‘appallingly’ during Brexit campaign
The former prime minister says he believes the pair “left the truth at home” when pushing for people to vote Leave.”
… no sense of self awareness! And how does he thing IndyRef1 was conducted? Does he believe the case for the Union was made in truth and light?
Which campaign was most deceitful and underhand, IndyRef1 NO or EURef Leave? Six and half a dozen IMO.
http://archive.is/5szK0
Galamcennalath@10:18
“Which campaign was most deceitful and underhand, IndyRef1 NO or EURef Leave?”
Two cheeks of the same arse!
One of the best Chris We should Listen To The Lion inside ourselves.
I know it’s early but it’s Saturday and nobody goes to off topic much anymore so have this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcHNCRq76M4
Capella@8.57
Regarding HS2, I’ve been thinking about this for a while, I think the cost is around £5-7 Billion so far spent, how much of this money has been spaffed on Tory land owners who’s land the line is running through?
Tories creaming the poor and the poor vote for them!! go figure.
Forget Robin Hood, Robin Bast*rds more like.
Great “toon” Chris.
First class as per, Mr Cairns. Braw!!
Well, I called this one right:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-power-of-ideas/comment-page-1/#comment-2483922
See here:
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1172786107362226176
Love Hamish 🙂
re the BBC, of course they are hoping like hell there will be violence. They love misery. The independence marches do their head in because they are peaceful, good natured events with a rapport between the marchers, the onlookers and the police. The antithesis of a story in the BBC books.
No sympathy with the OO, if they want to march peacefully they should have let the other side do so too. Thugs hospitalising police officers isn’t going to win any friends when authorities consider march applications. I have little doubt some knuckle draggers will attend today hoping for trouble and I hope no one wastes their time counter demonstrating. Let them vent in peace. They have nothing to offer but bile.
I wonder how many at today’s OO demo have been sent out and paid to ‘find’ trouble??
Church of Scotland issue statement backing the GCC stance on sectarian marches. Some choice comments BTL.
https://twitter.com/churchscotland/status/1172520567674691585?s=20
Is Tam the bam in the house?
If he or anyone else wants the full judgment of the Court of Session in the Cherry case, please see my comment in the previous thread or Google “Court of Session judgments”. You’ll find the whole 68 page .pdf there.
Regards.
@ Proud Cybernat – this electoral pact went on in the 2017 election and is what unseated Alex Salmond and probably Angus Robertson. I was told by a Gordon resident that she had been phoned and advised how to vote to get rid of Salmond.
The Liberals fielded a young unknown candidate in my constituency and did next to no canvassing until the final days, well after the postal votes had been cast. In my constituency there will be a large proportion of postal votes being rural with many retirees and many second/holiday homes.
But the Lib Dems and Tories can’t openly collude as it is illegal – not that the Electoral Commission will do anything about that.
The OO should be allowed to march!
They, their bigotry and bile should be marched right off the nearest cliff.
http://www.bailii.org/scot/cases/ScotCS/2019/2019_CSIH_49.html
OPINION OF LORD CARLOWAY, THE LORD PRESIDENT
JOANNA CHERRY QC MP and OTHERS
Against
Lord Advocate
The Claim of Right was a point of debate. UK Govt argued Dicey. UK Govt also argued:
“It was for Parliament to decide whether the provision in the Claim of Right was to be further defined as the English Parliament had done in the Meeting of Parliament Act 1694 (applied to the UK Parliament by the Succession of the Crown Act 1707).”
UK Govt also argued: “HM the Queen in Parliament was sovereign”.
The Court also discussed that the Claim of Right is vague compared to modern legislation.
So, some very interesting constitutional arguments were made but NOT addressed by the Court in any great depth. The Court refers to the monarch as “Sovereign”.
The Court decided it’s common law which applies here, not a directly breach of the Claim of Right.
“the principles of democracy and the rule of law” (Moohan v Lord Advocate 2015 SC (UKSC) 1, Lord Hodge at para [35]).
Adam speaks … and we are joining Scotland in insisting on the right to heard in the world:
https://nation.cymru/opinion/wales-has-woken-up-to-independence-so-the-campaign-of-our-lives-starts-now/
A snippet from the Random Scottish History article on Financial Cost to Scotland of the Union, linked to above (for those who don’t click links):
https://randomscottishhistory.com/2019/09/14/financial-cost-to-scotland-of-the-union/
@Capella
Well, I hope that these colluding parties phone me up and tell me how I should vote to unseat my current SNP MP (or MSP). I’ll let them ramble on, interjecting the occasional “Uh-huh. Yes. Aye. That right? Uh-huh.”
And when they’re finished tell hit them with, “This call has been recorded and will be sent to the Electoral Commission.”
(Aye, ah know – but still).
Question – am I the only one who scrolls right past anything Colin Alexander posts?
From the notes to Random Scottish history article:
https://randomscottishhistory.com/2019/09/14/financial-cost-to-scotland-of-the-union/
@ Proud Cybernat
Answer – No.
Passing George Square earlier. Where is the 100000 protestors? Saw a tour group!,
@ Proud Cybernat again – I was phoned up in 2017 and asked if I would consider voting Conservative. I just laughed and said no I vote SNP. They politely ended the call.
I suppose if I was a bit craftier I could have said I didn’t know how to vote and let them ramble on about how best to unseat the SNP MP.
Maybe an action plan to counter collusion of unionist parties would be useful? A second YES party for the Regional vote is an obvious plan for Holyrood. But what about a Westminster GE? Collusion seems inevitable in the unionist camp.
@Hamish100
Did you check in the Counting House?
The GS webcam has them captured at 10:00, there looks to be around 500 people, seem to be gone by 11:00. There is a match this afternoon so tanking up time by 11:00.
Proud Cybernat – No
Sorry must have dispersed by 11am to the pubs!!
“Maybe an action plan to counter collusion of unionist parties would be useful?”
Certainly.
To all BritNat parties out there – be aware. We’ll be recording your phone calls to us. Mind what you say to us or you’ll be in big trouble with the E.C.
Wee poor stupid Scotland with it’s big foot in the door. Brilliant ‘toon as usual Chris
Proud cybernat 11;23
NAW.
Proud Cybernat – No
.
Robert Louis,
I think you are onto something.
Given that England MSM and below-the-line commentariat errupted in anti-Scots hatred last week as wee Hamish the Scottish Lion, helped by Johanna Cherry MP QC and the legal beagles royally pi$$ed off the ENGLISH BREXITEERS…
Would now not be a great time establish a…
Petition for a 96 mile BREXIT BORDER between England and Scotland INSTEAD of the 310 mile border at the Northern Ireland backstop?
In addition, the U.K. Legislature will be mandated to have Scotland and Northern Ireland REMAIN in the EU whilst England gets what it voted for: an ENGLAND EXIT from the EU.
This would solve the Northern Ireland backstop problem. The 310 mile border between Ireland and Northern Ireland stays open, unhindered and the peace process left intact..
I would certainly vote for this.
Would you vote for this? If yes, I’d be happy to launch a formal petition.
Bring back the Rosyth-Zeebrugge/Scotland-EU ferry service and we would have a direct link bypassing EU exited England.
Meanwhile I have NO objection at all to EU lorry and car checks between England and Scotland. There would be FAR LESS objection at England and Scotland having a 96 mile border than the incendiary 310 miles along NI and EIRE.
I seem to recall Rev Stu. Proposing something like this a while back too.
What has changed is the desperation of Boris et al to find any way to resolve the DUP/NI backstop problem and gain his last dash for England driven EU exit.
A petition like this would require CRITICAL MASS in England. But once all the anti-Scots down there get a whiff of it they WANT rid of Scotland, so off we bl00dy well trot lol.
Thanks Robert, you made my day with your incisive post earlier.
I see Rembrandt Leonardo is promising to abolish the HoL and federalism, not sure how a branch manager can deliver this. He is painting a picture of a glorious future with Labour.
Labour it’s like Flight of the Phoenix, built on hope never delivered and you are kept in limbo forever, there is no escape just the never ending promise for tomorrow. When your existence relies in the majority remaining in perpetual poverty why would this ever change.
Al-Stuart says:
“Petition for a 96 mile BREXIT BORDER between England and Scotland INSTEAD of the 310 mile border at the Northern Ireland backstop?”
Count me in … Can we do a crowdfunder for a token machinegun tower?
I see rumours of a LibDEem/Tory pact to keep out SNP at upcoming election. Let’s be clear if the choice for the LibDem’s is Brexit or Scottish independence they will choose Brexit, every time.
Al-Stuart at 12:28 pm
I share some of the sentiments expressed in your post, but have some concerns about the proposed actions and assumptions. First, what good do you think a petition will do? They are easily ignored – the petition against the UK leaving the EU got from memory over 6 million signatures, but the government just brushed it aside and still intends to leave.
Second, do we really want a border between Scotland and England? The economic harm to Scotland of such a border would be substantial, just as it will be in Ireland. The only difference is that in Ireland there is the additional threat of violence – I think that is unlikely between Scotland and England, but who knows.
There is little doubt that the best outcome to the current situation is for the UK to remain in the EU and for Scotland to achieve independence. Sturgeon and the SNP are right to try to bring that about. It may well be that we are taken out of the EU against our will and then, as an independent nation, we rejoin the EU. But it will be sub-optimal if England is outside the EU and even more so if they do not have a trade deal with the EU.
A border between Scotland and England will be damaging and we should do all we can to avoid it. But if the choice is between being independent in Europe or remaining in the UK out of Europe, then we will just have to have a border.
Why are they bigging up the OO? Oh I have no idea…
On a totally different subject, in 1886, when the Liberals under Gladstone were considering supporting an Irish Home Rule Bill, Randolph Churchill, Tory and father of Winston Churchill, wrote that if Gladstone “goes for Home Rule, the Orange Card will be the one to play.”
Why are they bigging up the OO?
TD says:
“A border between Scotland and England will be damaging and we should do all we can to avoid it.”
What is this “damage” you speak of? and who will be damaged?
jfngw 12 ; 50
Labours policy over the years has always been promises while poverty reigned supreme. Its the world Labour thrived in promises to the poor about how they could better themselves by voting for Labours promises of Jam tomorrow followed by everything else the day after tomorrow, sadly Labours time in office was always to short to actually fulfil these promises but there was always tomorrow, and as for the great reforms of 1947 the welfare state etc. these would have been delivered no matter who was in power. It was a sop to stop a revolution when the men came back from the war. Westminster had to give them something.
Rev. Stu.
Re your tweet about Hi Vis vests and “Bigot Wankers”
I enjoy “Viz” humour and swearing More than most.
But in this case You’ve just stoked anger against Yes campaigners for no gain.
Give it a rest mate!
Nice one Chris Westminster been slamming door shut on Scotland for centuries.
I see some of O/O neanderthals showed up a George Sq. Complaining that they shouldve been marching and banging out their sectarian tunes of hatred instead of protesting well done GCC for putting a stop to the O/O hatred.
It’s difficult to articulate this briefly, I can’t, so apologies for length.
The ‘constitutional crisis’ which is spoken of so much, is not one of Union or myopically Scotland – it’s an *English constitutional crisis. It’s a Westimster Crown & Parliament constitutional crisis and it revolves around direct and representative democracy.
(*I omit Wales N.I throughout, take it as read)
The entire modus operandi and legislation at Westminster, is ‘representative democracy’ Power to make decisions of government, reside solely within the electorates representatives. In turn, Government & Parliament derives its ultimate sovereignty via the Crown. This is its literal constitution.
This is why all UK referendums are advisory only, unless legislation is passed temporarily assigning sovereignty to the electorate via ‘direct representation’ and making it “binding”.
Under such ‘direct democratic, binding representation’ the electorate would hold sovereignty over their representatives, Goverment, Parliament and ultimately the Crown – A binding referendum would be an ‘unconstitutional and aien device’ and this cannot be allowed, deary me no.
Following on the heels of Indyref, the English electorate were lead to believe they were being accorded the same fundamental right of directly representative democracy (an alien device) as the Scots had.
How familiar are we with “We voted No and meant it!”? Similarly the cry is “We voted Leave and meant it!”. In the former, this is sadly true, if we are to believe our whole ‘Peoples sovereignty,claim of right etc. The decision cannot be amended by our representatives, Government or Parliament.
In the latter case of England (KoE) this cannot be (unfortunately for them) and their representatives retain the right to amend the decision as they see fit. There has been a clash of ideology in England and caused a constitutional crisis. Part of government is attempting to deliver the direct representation of the electorate and a Hard Brexit, the others seeking to retain the rights of representative democracy.
Remember (and it is vitally important to) that the EU refererendum was not nuanced. “Out means out!” There can be no vestigial part of the EU or its legislation remaining if the EUref is to be “morally honoured” by direct democracy. Again and crucially, remembering it wasn’t held like that – those were not the rules – it was advisory and representative.
Though convention states, that there is an ‘expectation’ for them to be “morally honoured” there is no right to be. “Morally honoured” is congruent with other invidious phrases such as “acting in good or bad faith”
As for the rest of government, it is desperate to retain its sovereignty and its right to legislate as it sees fit. To amend where it wishes or to dismiss entirely if it so chooses. The irony is, that Boris, his cabinet, cross party supporters, the Privy council and Her Maj, are effectively hiding behind the powers of Crown prerogatives within Parliamentary sovereignty.
All this in order to immorally circumvent representative democracy, to morally honour the instruction of a purported (and constitutionally invalid ‘alien device’ (directly democratic sovereignty) Which in turn is a precedent for usurping the very prerogatives being invoked and undermining the heart of.Westminsters constitution. What a mutually exclusive mess.
As for Scotland – nothing much. Westminster and its Parliamentary Sovereignty and representative democracy, claims suzereinty over Scotland (which seeks to continually disabuse them of that notion) Where Westminster stated it was a “UK wide” EU referendum (note, not UK, but UK wide) it was being clear that the referendum would be representative only and advisory only – ‘thems the rules’.
If indeed ‘thems the rules’ then Scotland should only oppose Brexit with representative democracy within Westminster, to (quite correctly) rule and amend as they see fit – up to and including rejecting A50 and reversing it.
Though naturally, this is at odds with Scotland’s popular sovereignty and *cough* the ‘moral expectations’ laid on Westminster to deliver.
Subsequently, this has caused a crisis of constitutional approach within Scotland – and consequently within the SNP, Independence supporters and EU voters. Everyone is irate.
In Scotland’s case there were two inclusive options to reject Brexit (or amend it) via its own Independence and/or via representation at Westminster. As it is not Independent, then (as the SNP are doing) it seeks, as its representative, democratic right, under the ‘advisory’ referendum, to amend the electorate’s vote. Simultaneously it must highlight the disparity of Parliamentary versus Popular sovereignty in England and its counterpart in Scotland – the while seeking ultimate independence.
There are now (predictably) calls for multiple confirmatory referendums in the event of an Indyref2, purely because of England’s constitutional crisis.
It’s the usual, conflating Westminster’s constitution and attempting to impose it on Scotland. Imposing things on Scotland does not go down well.
Much as we hate the “We voted No and meant it!” brigade, they were, in Scotland, constitutionally right. There was no amending or confirmatory nonsense brooked. It was their direct, democratic and binding right in Scotland.
One day Scotland may vote Yes and mean it.
Refer:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmpubadm/496/49605.htm
AAARRRGHH!…It has taken 12 extra minutes to clear customs – Lucky I didn’t have to go to the toilet as well!
I wish we could get bananas, pineapples, tea, coffee, chocolate and all that other stuff we can’t have because of that bloody border!
re the eng scots border
england exports goods to scotland, but none of these goods are unique
cars, heinz ketchup, coca cola etc will simply come to scotland from other eu countries since such goods will be much cheaper than from england. the shoppers in tescos in bearsden wont even notice unless they read the small print on the lables
some goods, eg muller yoghurt, wensleydale cheese and other english goods only made in england will simply be replaced by other brands eg Onken yoghurt etc (i was going to say hp sauce but it is now made in holland).
infact, the need for replacements will be a boon to scottish producers for sale in scotland. the case in point that all fissh and shell fish processing plants in scotland have been closed in favour of youngs in grimsby. I can guarentee you that situation will change the day after the border is erected.
as for movement of people, i fly to england, in transit usually, the security checks in airports wont be effected by brexit. they will remain a pain in the ass
as for road traffic by individuals…… with #fuckoffscotland trending on twitter, folk might want to score stonehenge off their bucket list for a while
Visions of the future…
The Lib Dems have had their way. Article 50 has been revoked without a referendum. It is now the received ‘wisdom’ that referendums involving big change require a 2/3 majority to pass.
As Brexit has not happened, there is no longer any mandate for an indyref2. A border poll is held in Northern Ireland – 52% vote for a united Ireland – sorry, a majority is not enough. 5 yeas later the SNP will a landslide in Scottish Parliament elections on a manifesto of holding an indyref2. London allows it. 58% vote Yes…but a majority is not enough.
In Northern Ireland the dissident argument that Sinn Fein’s policy of seeking a political resolution was a disaster starts to gain increasing support. Sinn Fein loses control and the Troubles re-start. London say’s it’s all very regrettable but at least, echoing Mrs Thatcher, the violence is within ‘acceptable levels’.
In Scotland, after indyref2 is won and lost, 59 SNP MPs are returned in the next Westminster election. They have as much influence as they had in 2015 and are ignored.
In England, the first EU parliament elections held after the revoking of Article 50 sees 50 Brexit MEPs elected. They are ignored in the Parliament.
And everybody lived happily ever after.
‘We’re going to abolish the House of Lords’ pipes up Scottish Labour leader Ryebread Luncheoned.
Forget it says Scotland. We’re going to abolish Scottish Labour.
TD says:
“But if the choice is between being independent in Europe or remaining in the UK out of Europe, then we will just have to have a border.”
PPWWYEEW! That’s a relief, at least our supplies of citrous fruits from continental Europe will be secure, so we will not all get scurvy and die … Unlike the poor English – May the Lord have mercy upon their souls.
Col.Blimp IV says:
ROMANVS EUNT DOMVS
our supplies of garum are assured
schrodingers cat
Brexit was getting me worried – I was beginning to think we would have to make do with Worcestershire Sauce.
There is already a border between Scotland and England.
Although the proud town of Berwick of should return to its Berwickshire home as was agreed in treaty long ago and ignored by England. Another treaty ignored.
Hamish100 says:
Hamish100 says:
There is already a border between Scotland and England.
I’d almost forgotten about that, there was a time when ir’n bru was unobtainable outside of Blackpool and our money was as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit – It’s still like that in some places.
BBC continue to stoke sectarian rage. They publicise the OO Grand Master’s threats and his attacks on the democratically elected GCC. They have no republicans quoted for balance:
“Civil religious liberties are being taken away from people of this city and across the country by the nationalist-run authorities. There seems to be an agenda against protestants, against my organisation in particular. We feel it is unjust and unjustifiable” says Jim McHarg, Grand Master of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland.
Meanwhile the CoS supports the GCC action and says there is no religious discrimination against protestants.
The BBC also publicise the protest in George Square and the forthcoming OO marches.
Ofcom should be dealing with this blatant fanning of the flames of sectarian hate by the BBC. The GCC, police and CofS should make a joint complaint.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49690444
@Iain Mhor
“Much as we hate the “We voted No and meant it!” brigade, they were, in Scotland, constitutionally right”
To certain extent, Ian, yes. The problem is that our 2014 vote cannot be taken out of context. You cannot separate the vote from the circumstances of the status quo that gave legitimacy to that vote because then the vote becomes meaningless.
A majority of those who approached the polls/voted via postal vote may have cast their vote to preserve the UK at the time but they did so on a particular status quo: the one that was available to us at the time and in addition included Devo Max, to become the most devolved nation in the world, permanence of Holyrood and its independence from Westminster in devolved matters, in line with the pledges of the most senior political figures of the UK at the time.
This status quo has been completely destroyed by the UK state, done so without Scotland’s consent and therefore destroyed the framework that gave meaning of that vote. The vote is today democratically worthless because the circumstances where that vote was cast have moved 180 degrees, and not accidentally but rather deliberately. The only democratic thing to do now is to run the referendum again under the new status quo and see the result this brings.
Because if we do not and if we let that pass, just imagine how easy would be for the government of the day to run a referendum on a pack of lies simply to get the vote it wants and then proceed to use the vote achieved on false pretences to implement whatever the hell it wants. That flies on the face of democracy.
The question in the ballot was a very simple one:
“Should Scotland become an independent country?”
There was no specification regarding if the devolution settlement could be unilaterally destroyed, no specifications about if Scotland’s parliament could being neutered, prorogued or its power reduced, no specification about destruction of the devolution settlement, no specifications about Scotland’s membership in the EU. The question did not either determine the degree of devolution, but considering the status quo of the day, you can only assume that unless the people of Scotland voted against it, the only possible way for devolution to move was forward and not backwards as we have been experiencing.
It is therefore only reasonable to assume that the people of Scotland cast their vote rejecting Scotland to become an independent country under the circumstances at the time. Those circumstances have been completely manipulated and changed therefore you cannot longer hold the vote as valid. You could only have done so if the people of Scotland had given consent to all those changes, but they did not.
Larry has sensibly made himself scarce, and no wonder.
There’s an army at Hamish’ back.
@Maria F
“the one that was available to us at the time and in addition included Devo Max, to become the most devolved nation in the world”
I don’t mean to be sarcastic, Maria, but you do realise that being ‘the most devolved nation in the world’ is like being the world’s tallest midget? I’m not sure it’s much to aspire to.
If what has been discussed above, regarding the English border, were to happen, I wonder how the DUP and the nutty ‘loyalists’ of N.Ireland would react.
Let’s say, N.Ireland and Scotland stay in the EU/single market/customs union, so the ‘hard’ border is that with England. This solves the backstop (it is not needed), it keeps the good friday agreement intact, it gives Scots and those in N.Ireland what they ACTUALLY VOTED for and actually WANT.
You see, the DUP and its monarch obsessed chums, do not want N.Ireland to be treated differently to the UK and that is why they hate the backstop, but what if it was only treated differently to England, with Scotland and N.Ireland still in the EU??? Haha, then we would see, that when they scream they are loyal to ‘Britin’, in all reality, it is England (and ONLY England) from whom they desire their servitude.
Most of the folk working at propaganda HQ (BBC) at pathetic quay, are probbably in the lodge anyway, so no surprises at their coverage of the thick, bigot, orange people.
No surrender! eh, BBC.
So David Cameron is depressed is he,
how many Scots does he think he depressed?
We all remember the morning after the Independence Referendum when he stood on the steps of number 10 and announced English Votes for English Laws! Rubbing salt into a very raw wound.
Sorry David, you can roast along with the odd pig in hell as far as I’m concerned!
We must remember the BBC is a British state propaganda machine. Its job is to keep the status quo, to broadcast propaganda that makes the non unionist Scottish government and its SNP led councils look bad.
Clyde 1 and Clyde 2 and BBC Radio Scotland also adhere to this agenda as does just about every newspaper, along with all the tv channels.
We cannot expect any of the above to act with fairness and parity. Effectively we are at war, a propaganda war, and since our main outlets are the Web and the National newspaper, the stream of anti-SNP/SG/independence will always outweight our voices in the British media.
Our AUOB marches however are a wonderful sight to behold, they are friendly relaxed and inclusive. As opposed to the unionist O/O marches.
Too poor, too dependant, too unimportant, the Scottish Court of Session, and Scotland’s highest court of appeal decides, and its decision is effectively not recognised – as the parliament remains shut.
But oh, the Supreme Court will rule in a few days time.
Meanwhile Lizzie the Second despite there never having ever been an Elisabeth the First in Scotland gaily goes on her way having signed off on a prorogue that her and her advisors knew fine well was to restrict the will of parliament.
What a charade, what a joke, the Treaty of Union is nothing more than a roggering stick to be applied to Scotland.
As for the Queen, no doubt Balmoral is just another palace where the Prince of Porn and underage girls can get on with sex parties. Or is it where the Prince of Porn comes to be told by Mumsy to keep his well wielded boabie in his breeks because its upsetting the subjects.
Oh why do we accept this!
I think it was Goebells that said when asked about comparing the British state and the Nazi state,
the British state didn`t need to use force and brutality to steer the minds of the people they used the propoganda and misinformation of their trusted BBC.
So SLabour apparently cannot field candidates in around 30 odd Scottish WM seats.
Really?
So there may well be only a Tory or Lie-Dem candidate running against SNP in those 30+ seats that SLabour apparently can’t find candidates for.
The collusion isn;t just between STories / Lie-Dems – SLabour are doing their bit too in order to make it a straight SNP v Unionist battle at coming snap GE.
Maybe the silence from BBC Shortbread regarding the AUOB marches is , when Nicola fires the starting gun for Indy2, Shortbreads finest will simply show the 00 bigot marches (all smiley faces e.tc although they always look glum unless they are passing Chapels) and the 2014 day after Indy in George Square where the bigoted knuckle-draggers rioted against the peaceful Yes movement, as we know BBC Shortbreads finest misreported the details of that.
Citizens living outside the central belt would never be aware/believed of what really happened that night had it not been for the internet.
BBC Shortbread “keeping the Nation stupid”. feel free to add on any other descriptions.
Where SLab arent standing . . . . Real Labour, Independent Labour Party etc should stand . . . Give Labour supporters something to vote for
Similarily for Tories And LibDems . . . . . Break up the Yoon Vote.
take control! . . . . Don’t sit back watching the yoons circle the wagons!
Perhaps the Rev Stu should field “New Scottish Independent Labour Party “ candidates in these seats ?
North chiel
He’s one of those lily livered Liberals I think.
Roger says:
14 September, 2019 at 3:13 pm
@Maria F
“I don’t mean to be sarcastic, Maria, but you do realise that being ‘the most devolved nation in the world’ is like being the world’s tallest midget? I’m not sure it’s much to aspire to”
If Scotland is to be the most devolved nation in the world as the fake remainer Cameron, then PM of the UK of Great Britain told us we would be, then Scotland has to be more devolved than NI and England. Do you know that NI has control over the civil service? Do you know that the UK state put the civil service hard at work against independence during indyref campaigning? That would change should the Scottish Gov and the Scottish parliament take control of the Civil service operating in Scotland. I very much suspect that the Permanent Secretary and that other individual mentioned in Mr Salmond’s case would not be retaining their jobs if that was the case. Should we be in control of the civil service and the propaganda unit hiding behind the name of Scotland’s Office would be brought to measure.
If Scotland is to be the most devolved nation in the world, then it has to be more devolved than any region currently devolved. Regions in Spain have enjoyed devolved broadcasting for over 3 decades. England controls its own broadcasting. The BBC and the rest of the broadcasters are the biggest propaganda mouthpiece of the English establishment. They manipulated audiences cut pro independence supporters short when they are speaking and are broadcasting a false message. Can you imagine Scotland free of those 24/7 propaganda mouthpieces?
If Scotland is to be the most devolved nation in the world, then it has to be more devolved than England. England may claim it is not “devolved” but the reality here is that England MPs and England’s civil service have currently the hand in the UK purse. They do not get a budget like we do, they simply help themselves to what they need, when they need it and then on the basis of what they need, if the wind is blowing in the right direction and they cannot get away with making it look like “is for the benefit of the whole UK” then they give us a “share”. England MPs are currently in control of every single Department of Government: defence, immigration, health, pensions, tax, everything. If Scotland is to become the most devolved nation in the world, then we need to get control of all that too.
I could go on and on.
Devolution may not be comparable to independence, an its legitimacy in a union of equals may be questionable (I still cannot figure out how in a union of equals can be possible that England MPs are devolving to Scotland Scotland’s very own powers and not devolving in parallel the exact same England powers to an England Parliament but rather keep England’s representatives in control of every bldy aspect of government), but hell I want the bstrds to deliver what they promised, because that is what Scotland voted for.
We were promised to become the most devolved nation in the world. Until the time we are more devolved than NI, every region of Spain and we have as much control over every fckng government department as England has, we are not the most devolved nation in the world and therefore the UK state has failed to deliver its part of the bargain, in other words, has refused to accept what we actually voted for.
You can be as sarcastic as you like. It does not bother me.
“Scottish Independent Labour Party” would simply take Indy votes away from the SNP.
roud Cybernat says:
14 September, 2019 at 6:12 pm
““Scottish Independent Labour Party” would simply take Indy votes away from the SNP”
How about:
Democratic Liberals for Independence
Conservative and non-Unionist party
True Labour for Scotland
@Maria F
If Devo Max meant getting to decide about going to war or not, then it would mean something
The far right are pushing an agenda – the only true Brexit is a ‘clean break’ ‘no-deal’ and anyone proposing softer is a Remainer. The MSM is true to form and duly assisting in promotion of this division.
That’s bollocks. It’s obvious to me that only the loony Brexiteer MPs want ‘no deal’ while a lot of MPs seek some sort of managed exit, that certainly make them Remainers.
While a ‘no deal’ exit was always possible (as the default) the rhetoric peddled was of easy trade deals and a continued stability.
However now, I suspect the normalisation of ‘no-deal’ has taken root among a lot of voters. In that, the far right and their media have been successful.
So, Boris has three choices … engineer a now illegal Hallowe’en ‘no deal’ exit, get a Ireland’s only backstop agreed with the EU and through WM, or delays then fights an election probably on a ‘no deal’ ticket so he can rally 40% of voters and win.
None of this is good for Scotland. None of it is what we want. My patience is wearing thin! A plan to sidestep all this is needed asap.
Robert Louis at 7.42am
Of course, the solution is, as ever, staring Lying dictator De Pfeffle Johnson, by allowing both Scotland and N.Ireland to remain in the single market and customs union, as a compromise.
Much easier for trade regulation and NO backstop and NO hard border in Ireland etc.. since the Scottish border is 96 miles long, whereas the Irish border is 310 miles.
Spot on.
The step after that is the step away from Westminster.
Lion on one side of the door and lying on the other.
Aye
Labour would never be true for Scotland. Never have been and never will be. Just another bunch of shysters. Illegal wars and fraud. Honours for corruption. Liars. Killing and maiming people. Broken promise and banking fraud. They cause the biggest migrant crisis in Europe since WW11. They caused Brexit. The wasted £Trillions of public money. Just like the rest of the unionists. A bloody disgrace. Ruining the world. Most of them should be in jail.
What is required is for the Scottish independence supporters to become angry – Oh! Wait up! Some of them are angry already but instead of being angry at the unionists they are angry at the FM/SG and SNP.
Quite typical of the Scots in just about everything. Instead of increasing support for the team when moral is low the supporters turn against their own team and drive the team’s moral even further down.
It’s a shame for the no voters since 2014 250,000 have sadly died.
Who’s going to save the uk now.
Certainly not Boris.
Safer stronger and better off.
I don’t think so.
Roger says:
14 September, 2019 at 6:27 pm
@Maria F
!If Devo Max meant getting to decide about going to war or not, then it would mean something”
Perhaps. But for now I would be happy if the control of the civil service, the control of broadcasting, the control of immigration, full control of taxation including corporation tax, full control of oil, electricity and gas, the 24 powers that the England MPs stole from us and of course the power to run referendums whenever the hell we want, was handed back to Scotland. Those all fall within the remit of Devo Max, so handing those powers back will be in line with our vote.
That that will not be enough, that is for sure. But I do not think we should be having to fight for what is already ours in line with our vote in 2014.
Iain 2 says:
My first reaction was, surely not that many. There were two million NOs. so that’s 12.5%.
Five years have passed, an estimate of perhaps 7.5% of voters have sadly died? However, NO voters were found disproportionately among the elderly, so somewhere in between. 10% of NOs perhaps. 200k?
That is a very sobering thought about how time passes!
Unfortunately, that doesn’t quite equate into all YES gain. We know some YES-Leavers say they put Brexit ahead of Indy. Strange people.
Five years and the Scottish death rate of 50,000 per annum =250,000.
great cartoon.
– general kudos to maria f recently who is making a lot of good points across multiple posts.
There’s been a lot of wanky snark about, someone needs to keep it positive and substantive.
Main point, a wee bit O/T but mentioned upthread – annoying idiots blocking the streets some 600 times a year on the flimsy basis of
– culchurul tradishuns
– the right to walk the kweens high-way
– freedoms of speech, association, right of protest(?)
always got on my tits. The undercurrent was always
– we’re fuckin daein it – stop us an we’ll kick yir heid in ya papist cunt
but something interesting has happened.
– it seems the original gang of idiots supporters took to the streets to violently prevent a lawful march by, what is also, a gang of idiots
– and now, ALL marches look to be BANNED.
Lovely.
the friends of james connolly and ireland -woteva-the-fuck society march about 5 times a year in scotland; and 2 of these would get pulled for “public order” reasons
– now it looks like if you schedule 1 “republican” march for an area, in one month – you can get all the mental loyalist heidbangers banned, as well as yourself
if someone planned this all along, then it is superb 12-dimensional chess – my compliments
HOW DO WE GET THE EXTREME PRODDY MENTALISTS OFF THE FUCKING STREETS?
– hold a REPUBLICAN march, and let their dumbass supporters act predictably
this is the kind of macchiavellianism we need in the independence movement.
I have a lot of feeling for the irish and their history – but we don’t need to import their diseases, or get involved in foreigners fights.
I don’t know if anyone else noticed it, but after the last rangers-celtic match, there followed in the hours and days, a mini crime wave – stabbings, doings – and while it was reported in the papers, it was done in bland terms, no one was making any connections to anything, or providing any details on, e.g. affiliations of attackers, victims, bystanders – same as it ever was.
– on the related topic of “clever tactics”
saudi arabia, backed by the usual criminals, has been trying to blow the shit out of yemen, and largely making an arse of it, despite vast tech superiority
– now the rebels have made a drone attack on a major refinery, set it ablaze, and I reckon a lot of princes are “touching cloth” at the moment. Here ends their adventurism, the dreams of muscular, regional power.
Actions have consequences, bitches – and it is a general point, doing economic damage is often the most effective tactic – the bad guys only care about money, so you hit them in the wallet (the IRA worked this out successfully, but it only took them 20years). Empire is always a looting operation, so when it becomes a drain, you go home. Something to think about.
“the spice must flow”
p.s. in bizarre synchronicity – the boris bridge to norniron – the BBC has an interesting article on a rail bridge which once existed over the solway firth.
Iain 2 says:
They won’t all be NO voters, though.
Some elderly people are YES. Some younger people die.
Johnson et al are on the verge of collapse. Their deeply feeble ‘plan’ of Trump style brinkmanship with the EU has failed and the ‘sausages and spitfires’ rhetoric to placate the Leave plebs has resulted in everybody pointing and laughing.
Johnson’s Brexit now looks so pathetically ridiculous that opponents are now confidently proposing the ‘nuclear options’ of a new referendum (Watson) or ditching Brexit altogether (Swinson).
I’ve been a big fan of Sturgeon’s wait and see approach to calling for a new indy ref but I honestly think this might be THE MOMENT to go for it.
With Brexit looking a busted flush and everybody desperate for some sort of way out the stars are about as aligned as they’re ever going to be. No need for an S30. Just make it advisory and the fog of Brexit and international sympathy will do the rest.
Brexit has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as indy is concerned, but I reckon it’s time to take control of events ourselves.
Iain 2
Re your calculation
Some of the bereaved never had the vote, around 20% never voted. Now calculate.
All guestimate but a bit of fun.
Except for the deceased.
As an old Friend used to say “life is a bastard then you die”.
If we don’t get independence now we are not trying hard enough.
Don’t forget 2014 was nearly six years ago.
All of you who are annoyed about Orange Marches in Scotland and worried about importing an Ulster-type conflict might like to see this BBC film on the origin of the Troubles in Ulster. There’s a very sad scene of the death of 3 young Scottish soldiers and their regiment’s reaction.
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/09/14/saturday-film-bbc-spotlight-a-secret-history-of-the-troubles-part-1/
Hamish100 says:
14 September, 2019 at 2:27 pm
There is already a border between Scotland and England.
Although the proud town of Berwick of should return to its Berwickshire home as was agreed in treaty long ago and ignored by England. Another treaty ignored.
Big difference between a British / EU Border in Ireland, and an English / EU Border in Scotland, is that the Irish Border would provoke bloodshed and anger.
A hard border between Scotland and England wouldn’t provoke the same reaction, and if there was a degree of lawlessness corruption and smuggling, the lawlessness and corruption is already well established there, and the smuggling would probably qualify for a grant as a new enterprise.
Iain2@8.16.
I have had many old friends who said this very statement, all no longer with us, imagine if we had a honest unbiased media for all these generations, life wouldn’t have been a basta*d,it would have been a vision of what would have been.
The sad thing is many fought for the “Establishment” and died holding out for the dream of Independence.
We have to do this for the sake of the “auld yins”, surely we will get it right this time.
200,000 may have died since 2014 – but have their postal votes lived on?
Idle curiosity but I wonder how many of the people at George Square were also at the counter protests that sparked the ban, thereby contradicting the argument that the OO are being tarred by same brush as the hooligans that caused the trouble. If the BBC had journalists they could start looking at film footage and people lifted by the police on the night.
I wasn’t overly convinced by the Scottish Protestants Against Discrimination either. Where is a Pastor Jack Glass when you need one. Despite his views, one did get the impression that Jack had actually read the Bible.
Scottish independence is not time limited
We Scots will campaign for Scottish independence for as long as it takes
Or as it says on that rock in Arbroath for as long as a hundred or more of us remain alive
People are realising it’s the right thing to do
Sure there are those folk who tie themselves to the mast of a sinking ship ,understandable ,they have voted for labour all their lives ,admirable too but you only tie yourself to the mast of a sinking ship once ,it’s hard jumping ship but when you realise you are being led by self serving people who don’t care about you or your children or grandchildren and you see the positive happy future planned by people who live with you and work with you it’s plain to see that the future lies with your own country and not another , march for peace and prosperity march for Scotland under one banner the saltire flag of Scotland
Capella
It is closer to 275,000 and one hopes that the new voter registration rules will prevent that sort of shenanigans.
The demographic changes, with a similar number of new young voters, may very well account for much of the gradual rise of Yes in the polls.
Capella says:
“but have their postal votes lived on?”
Almost certainly, and some may have helped form a colony of Zombie Unionists on a remote island in Shetland.
Postal vote-rigging has been going on for years, it cant be difficult to compare the register of deaths to the marked up voters roll.
I wonder why it never seems to get done, I once asked Alison Hunter that very question, didn’t get much of an answer.
Capella @ 10:57,
The irony is that pre-Salmond, Gordon used to be a LibDem stronghold. They literally gave it away to the Tories in 2017 with their Faustian bargain, and they’ll likely never get it back again whatever happens.
It’s perhaps forgotten now that when AS first took up the challenge to contest the seat, it was by no means a shoo-in. In fact it was the kind of bravery that was typical of the man. The kind of bravery we need again now.
@Maria F 3:07pm
I understand your point, but in my opinion the Indy vote, like the EU vote had to be taken exactly as presented. However, there was no context to the EUref question. It was surrounded by a haze of empty rhetoric.
Insofar as Indyref 2014 is considered – the ‘White Paper gave specific context to the Independence question on the ballot. It was the only legitimate context. A No vote in 2014 could only really be a rejection of that content.
Though I declared that the No vote in 2014 had to be delivered because “They meant it” – I did not mean to imply that there could never be another referendum. I meant that it could not be “advisory”, it had to be respected exactly as it was voted for. There could be no question of anyone in either government interpreting it otherwise. But also, neither could the No voters interpret it otherwise either.
The referendum was not “Once in a generation, lifetime or ever” Not “A vote for the Union”, that wasn’t the question on the ballot. Westminster chose to interpret the No vote as the abrogation of all sovereignty, based on their principles of advisory & amendable referendums, the power to interpret, to revise – based in their constitution. Those were not the rules of the referendum in Scotland. But hey, never give a sucker an even break.
However, bowing to your argument of greater context; perhaps next time and with experience, more will weigh the aspirations of the two nations against the rhetoric and pay closer attention to the details. Details like: Westminster is never required to honour anything by ballot held under their constitution – Holyrood is. If the government in Scotland is “peebled wi stanes” – it’s been telt and meant it.
HandandShrimp
Ah Pastor Jack Glass, a true visionary.
His campaign to thwart tree-felling in Bellahouston Park was an inspiration to environmentalists everywhere.
Though blocking people’s vision was more his intention.
To Capella 8.56…
You are right how do you know that a postal vote or proxy vote has been made by or on behalf of a person that is not deceased ?
The answer is you don’t
The authorities only check that the vote received has a signature and that it has an existing application for a postal vote or proxy vote
The postal vote or proxy vote could have been signed by anyone , yes a forged or false signature it could be signed by someone other than the applicant for a postal vote or by someone other than the proxy voter the authorities simply would not be able to tell if it had been , they do not check that the voter is still alive they simply rely on the postal voters representative to notify them that they are dead and they rely on the proxy voter to inform them if the person on who’s behalf they are voting has died
I know this for certain because they do not compare signatures on a postal vote or proxy vote to make certain that it has been signed by the authorative person , they can’t , it would take too much time to do so and they would need experts to examine and compare signatures .
Examining and comparing signatures is a long process.
Unfortunately a signature is just unreliable , when applying for a postal vote or a proxy vote the applicant has to sign a declaration but that is the most pressure that is put on an applicant to abide by the rules and be truthful.
How do I know this ? Because I worked for government for forty years Inland Revenue , DHSS , DWP HMPO none of them compare signatures and make decisions on the validity of a signature based on a pre-existing signature they all rely on people providing ID at source often with a photograph but you cannot do that with the current postal or proxy vote system
Fraud will be rife in the postal vote and proxy vote system but as usual the authorities deny that there is fraud they say there is no proof , well of course there is no proof they don’t look for it and it certainly won’t jump up and bite them announcing its presence but a slack system of identification always has fraud …everywhere
If you do not check and seek out fraud you won’t find any
But that doesn’t mean it’s not there
@ RJS – It looks as though the unionist parties are dividing up the Scottish constituencies amongst each other. Here in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine it will be Andrew Bowie. He’s been getting air time on the BBC, as a panellist on Any Questions and interviews on radio. Colin Clark in Gordon has had a higher profile recently too. We could go round the 13 constituencies and see who the BBC is promoting. Spot the candidate.
.
I was expecting to find a lot of vile, bitter Twitter hatred when looking up the trending….
#fuckoffscotland
Instead it is effing HILARIOUS.
Today Twittermap has over 11,000 mentions of #fuckoffscotland
So many are Scots delighting in the irony.
Others are ripping the pi$h in the way only the Scottish psyche can so do.
Stuart, PLEASE can you consider some sort of thread to LIFT ALL OF OUR SPIRITS where Wings Over Scotland archives many of these #fuckoffscotland golden nuggets as possible.
The stupid Brexit fockers and likes of your classic Kent Cnut just don’t get it. They think WE WANT TO STAY IN THEIR UNION and #fuckoffscotland trending will have us upset, greeting and we’ll telt.
Aye right.
Any Wingers wanting a side splitting laugh, just click this Twatter link…
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Fuckoffscotland&src=typed_query
Congratulations SLOVENIA
Two riders finish at the top of the vuelta Espana one of the great three week cycling grand tours in the world
Tomorrow two Slovenian riders are likely to finish in the top three in the final leg of this three week epic race
Bravo to Mr Pogacia and Mr Roglic
Hey Scotland , do you know that Slovenia has only been an independent country for thirty years
They are doing fantasticly well
Their population is two million
Rock on
TC 9.41pm. One thing is certain, postal voting needs to be scrutinised, and we need need exit polls and EU electoral commissioners. Otherwise same old same old, cheated at the final hurdle.
Thoroughly enjoying Last Night at the Proms. Just had Rule Britannia and now it’s Land of Hope and Glory.
Capella @ 21:56,
Yes, it would be surprising if it wasn’t happening again, even between the so-called-Remainer FibDems and the Leaver Tories, so blinded are they by mutual hatred of the SNP.
The Electoral Commission should really issue an advance warning, and subsequently investigate, but I wouldn’t count on either.
Maybe someone’s joke upthread about recording electoral telephone “instructions” received should be taken seriously, even if just to show people how they are being manipulated. (And “old-school”, not a byte of internet activity involved.)
TC. 10.09pm. Ah but Slovenia has a population pulling in the same direction. No slovenian unionists there telling them that their better off under Belgrade. Proudscotbuts, who’s like them eh?. The only pseudo Scots with no sense of shame or pride.
Al Stewart 10.02pm. “So many are Scots delighting in the irony”, and over 11.000 twitter mentions of f-ck off Scotland. Naw! These pond life dont represent Scotland. These pond life are not even fit to breathe clean Scottish air.
Col.Blimp IV at 9.27
Exactly. Nobody died in Argyll and Bute as we approached the 2014 referendum and we got a 97% take-up on the postal vote? Aye Right!
The EC declared the UK’s postal voting system a”recipe for large scale fraud” and here’s the opinion of a senior English Judge …..
“Postal voting is ‘wide open to fraud’ and should be scrapped in its current form, a top judge warned last night.
Judge Richard Mawrey, who sits in judgment on election fraud cases, said ballot-rigging was now a ‘probability’ in some parts of Britain due to the extension of postal voting.
Mr Mawrey, a deputy high court judge, said the introduction of ‘on demand’ postal voting had failed to boost turnout. But he warned it had made Britain’s electoral system vulnerable to fraud on ‘an industrial scale’”
Capella at 3.06
I think it might be having the opposite effect.
Oh, the irony. The OO complaining about its marches being suspended. If they’d called off their rent a thug protests at other peoples’ marches this wouldn’t have happened to them. No spitting at priests this weekend,boys.
TD at 1.12 pm
Good post
Terry callachan 9.10pm. ” people are realising it’s the right thing to do”. Hopefully terry Scotland is awakening.
Dave McEwan Hill
I’ve never tried it but don’t think there would be much chance of them catching householders who listed phantom voters at their addresses.
They would be more likely to harass you if you failed to return the form on time.
Gary 45% 8.54pm. Sadly Gary dont think many of the”auld yins” were much in favour of independence. Whilst visiting my mum in her nursing home on a visit back home, one of the more compos mentis elderly residents upon seeing my yes t-shirt retorted, ur you want ae they nationalists. And this coming from a man who voted liebor all his life and worked down the pits for 40 odd years. God love him the coal dust certainly took its toll.
Wan ae they nationalists. Predictive text sh**e
Col.Blimp IV at 10.64
It’s a lot more complicated than that.The whole system is entirely insecure. Andy Anderson’s “Dunoon Report” explains in detail how insecure and open to manipulation the whole system is. What is not in doubt is that five constiuencies in Scotland recorded 97% take ups on postal votes at the Referendum and this is in reality impossible. Even a huge postal vote in Shetland recently only achieved 80% which is- by some way – a record take up in a constituency election.
I have little doubt that Ruth Davidson and John McTernan were given information about huge NO postal vote to prepare us for the hard to believe result achieved in it. I don’t believe it necessarily actually changed the result,just distorted it and I think in desperation they overdid it.
I go right back to the very strange postal vote which saved Gordon Brown’s Labour at the Glenrothes byelection. You know the one -the one where they lost all the ballot papers and records.
Anybody who thinks an establishment that is capable of the Ballymurphy Massacre and Bloody Sunday would baulk at wee fiddle with the votes need to get out a bit.
I got sacked on Friday. they never had the dignity to even say to my face.im an agency worker . I looked at my shift sheet on Thursday and me and my other agency are gone. like rubbish.
A war is in the air. and I will dance.
@ DMH – I certainly hope so. But given the vote against the OBFA, David Torrance’s comment about the “ulsterisation” of Scotland, the sly promotion of bigotry by some Tory MSPs, the sudden escalation of “incidents” around republican marches – I never knew there were republican marches in Glasgow – it looks like the temperature is being slowly turned up.
DMH 11.16.the ballymurphy massacre,bloody Sunday, involved in the miami showband massacre, the Dublin/ Monaghan bombings massacre. These brit barstewards are up to the their knees in the blood of innocents. Scotland will be a walk in the park for them, aided and abetted by the O/O and the influx of knuckle draggers from NI after a vote for a United Ireland.
Any decent people with pride left in Scotland? Then then you better get off your arses and vote SNP 1 wings 2(hopefully).
I see BBC online are repoeting “violent sectarian clashes ” over the last two weenends as the reason for the cancellation of the marches. There was no “violent sectarian clashes ” on either weekend.
The Govan “riot”resulted in no physicalcontact whatsoever as the “protesters” never came within any reach of the march,though somebody set fire to some bins and protestors (a whole two of whom got arrested by several dozen police)shouted at the march from a distance.
There were a handful of people arrested at the other marches for shouting sectarian stuff and again no physical contact.
Let me repeat.There was no “violent sectarian clashes”.
This needs to be called out.
And the marches were all entirely peaceful though why there is a sudden proliferation of “republican” marches at this point is a puzzle.
“ DMH@ 1116, if I recall at the time I quickly calculated that it would take only 50-100 postal votes per polling station in Scotland to swing the result.
Dave McEwan Hill @ 23:45,
Know what you mean about locally-irrelevant marches, but the hothead reaction seems to have backfired fairly badly on the OO, which is no bad thing.
We don’t need any of that distractional shite, and the GCC with the backup of the SG seem to have handled it all very astutely. If it leads to some OO grumbling about their “rights” to strut their 17th-century sectarian stuff, well, boo-hoo. They should have kept their loonies under control, as they were very careful to do in 2014 until the day the result was declared.
Scotland proudly presents the Solheim Cup 2019.
Another major international sporting event presented by Scotland to the world to a very high standard. One thing I did notice was that unlike in past Solheim cups hosted in Scotland this time there was not a union flag flying anywhere. Saltire, European and USA but not one Union flag. Finally more and more people are realising that it is Scotland not Britland. Another small sign that times are changing. Another brick in the wall.
At the closing ceremony of the Ryder cup at Gleneagles in 2014 a bunch of ignorant Britnats booed Alex Salmond let’s hope the crowd in 2019 are free of such boorish Britnats and don’t do the same to our current excellent FM.
@alex 11:18pm
Chin up mate. That’s about as bad as clocking on and a vacancy for your job is pinned next to it for all the shifts to see – Brutal.
The tirade at the gaffer was fun though, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Good luck. Canny keep a good man down.
alistair x says:
14 September, 2019 at 11:18 pm
“I got sacked on Friday. they never had the dignity to even say to my face”
Very sorry to hear that, Alistair. I hope something turns up.
Hi frae me n co.
We are in good company le soir…
iScotland is SO soon
I am a bad boy.
We dancin’
I am with IndyLiveRadio Jilly…
She’s my handler
Tinto Chiel knows Rev
It is 04:39
Bobp@11.07
Most of my family were from the “Central Belt” mining e.tc, all long gone.
Had any of them been alive at Indy 14 I am sure I would have opened their eyes to reality, WBB would have persuaded most of them.
I have noticed a large swing in opinion in Indy2 with the “auld Yins” like you not that long ago, any sign of Indy support was greeted with a frown or a look in the opposite direction, now its the opposite.(This is what I’m experiencing)up in “North Gods Country”.
Alistairx@11.18
Something will come up, put it behind you, rise above it and never give up, its their loss.
Capella at 1012am,
Me too. My chest filled with pride, tears of joy ran from my eyes, as the orchestra reached its peak, just before we all sung out ‘land of hope and glory’. Thrilling stuff. Well done BBC
God bless this green and pleasant land.
I’m done with Scottish independence. It is, to coin a phrase, ‘union jacks all the way down’ for me from now on. 🙂
The more the violent sectarian clashes are reported. The more they can be banned. Lead to more Orange marches ban. Justification. The Republicans are doing a good job at getting them banned. A win, win situation. Grounds to ban Orange marches in Glasgow. They are a disgrace, unbelievable.
It is only in Glasgow central belt areas they mainly get away with it. The authorities have never dealt with it. Neither do the Police. They should be putting in causes for a ban. Disruption of the street by an unequal Society . Unlawful. Instead of wasting £Millions/Billions of public money on it. An unequal society. How much does the policing cost? £Million. The disruption to the local economy by bigoted racists. Promoting an unequal society. The damage that it does, Breeds violence and secrecy. Unlawful.
In most other parts of Scotland (even Protestant areas) . They are totally banned, No one will put up with it. In the NE they are totally banned. Church membership and Orange membership are totally falling. Faster than a sieve loses water. The Churches have privileges above the Law. The equal employment Laws etc. The Masons break the Law. Unequal, misogynist, racist and bigoted. Black balled without reason. Secret not open to all. They should not be Marching the streets. In any way shape or form. They do not protect equal right. Unlawful. They have no rights to any equality. They are unequal.
Scotland is secular by a majority. The Churches used to speak out more about inequality and poverty etc. Not so much now. Gagged by Westminster. The Churches get public funding and exemptions above the Law. Tax exemptions.
Tribunal unless redundancy. Employment Law. Sacked job advertised. Illegal. Grounds for compensation.
Not sure if this has been said before, a wee suggestion for English made products post brexit.
Mad in Britain.
Scotland has low unemployment. Record low. The only time in history it has been lower than the rest of the UK? Hope people get another job. Higher no of women employed. Nursery provision.
The devolved SNP Gov good administration.
The Scottish pop has only increased since Devolution 2000.
People had to migrate from Scotland to get a job. Depopulating Scotland. Westminster unionist centralist economic decisions. The North/South divide, Taking £Billions from Scotland to fund London S/E. Westminster illegal secrecy and lies, kept secret under the Official Secrets Act.
Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie illegally kept secret for 100 years, The Westminster unionist lying sycophants. War criminals. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Destroying the world economy. Most of them should be in jail.
UK pop 65Million. World pop 7Billion+
11,000 FO Scotland. Little to worry about. 2Million++ support YES.
For some cheer on a Sunday morning, tune into LBC and take the pulse of the chaos across BritNat society.
Love it. The LibDems are already toast in England. Sit back and watch/listen to BritNat wonderland coming apart at the seams.
BritNat = The Incredible Hulk apparently.
well said Robert Peffers
Colin Clark, (Salmond slaughter?? ) Aye right, Bowie in the NE are toast. No one knows who they are. Wish Alex was back. Still major support. Once Alex sorts them out. He will be back. The greatest Statesman Scotland has ever had. Stitched up.
Leslie Evans/unionists destroyed the Scottish economy. Illegally introduced PR without a mandate. To favour unionist propaganda. Scotland would be Independent. Better off. With still needed negotiation.
A few days ago i was accused of ‘shit stirring’ for posting a link to an indy blog.
Its not my role to stir shit and it is not my responsibility to sort out anyone else’s shit.
I don’t agree with James Kelly’s views on the Wings List party but otherwise, I find his blog informative and worthy of promotion.
This is a good read:
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/
Fraud in the voting system. The numbers can tally with the electoral roll. Pop statistics. That can quite easily be checked, The statistics show no of people in the constituency. Tallied with those at the polling station. Scored out as people vote. Name address etc. Do postal votes not have a numerical number? Voting cards do. The electoral system has been tighten up. More up to date revision. Gerrymandering punishable by prison.
Health Boards are unaccountable to the public.
The many decent workers in the NHS live in a culture of fear and bullying from bosses, so are prevented from whistleblowing.
The Scot Govt’s loyalties lie with Health Boards, not the public. It was all supposed to be so different under the SNP. It’s exactly the same as under Labour. Rotten to the core.
The SPSO Ombudsman is a Labour creation designed to give the pretence of redress for the public regarding public services.. The SPSO is now beloved of the SNP Scot Govt, now that the SNP have replaced Labour as the political Establishment.
You can always write to Scot Govt ministers, if you don’t mind waiting a month for a politican’s answer. eg. Condescending waffle from a civil servant signed by a minister with no answer to what you wrote about.
Professional nowadays just means paid more money. “Professional standards” no longer exist. Professionals are not held accountable, except in the most extreme circumstances.
You can always try suing. Good luck with that. NHS Central Legal Office Edinburgh. An office block stuffed with NHS lawyers. No austerity for the NHS when it comes to hiring lawyers to get them off negligence and malpractice litigation.
The postal vote form are sent out to an address. How do fraudsters get into thousands of addresses (houses) to get the postal voting form. Break in and steal it? Many elderly people live alone. How do others get the form to falsely sign it? The potential voters would know they had not received the postal voting form and complain. Do people steal it from the postie?
Voters going in holiday apply for a postal vote. They do not receive it. Found the form on the mat when they come back from holiday. After the election. Douglas Alexander organised it There were not enough postal voting forms supplied in time.
Banff and Buchan/NE Alex Salmond constituency. It was always an SNP stronghold for over thirty years. Full employment. They saw the Oil meters turning. An abundance of fish. Until the stocks were depleted. Discards. Throwing dead fish back for years. Instead of using bigger nets. Westminster Gov mismanaging the fishing industry. Needs migrant workers. EU nearest, biggest markets.Salmon and whisky goes to China, £Billions. Direct flight to China from Scotland. More Chinese students and exports. 1.3Billion people. Appreciate Burns. Outlander, Scottish history. Braveheart.
China ‘Scotland the land of discovery and invention’.
Scottish invention, ideals changed the modern world. The most highly educated population in the world. One of the first counties in the world to have tertiary education. Learning to read and write. Most uni per pop in the world. 5million, 15 unis. Colleges and apprenticeships. Education according to ability. Not ability to pay. Gov funded. Commitment.
http://www.uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-supreme-court-not-only-140733683.html
“The UK Supreme Court will not only decide Johnson’s fate, it will declare whether Scotland’s constitutional tradition still matters.”
A few posts about sectarian marches in the West.
There will be people looking for a ban on all marches – and they may not define sectarianism in their calls.
I think we need to be mindful about these type of calls, particularly when driven by the MSM, I am no fan of the OO, but there could be a trap here.
I agree with those saying that there was next to nothing to report/violence, so why the drama? – perhaps it paves the way for the psychopaths who work for the security services to set up a wee scrap at a future AUOB march and the consequential cry to ban them as well.
Feel free to think I’m nuts, but I believe our enemy is getting desperate.
When people die. There is a certified registration of death. The authorities are informed. National local. Local office register of death. Taken off the electoral roll. 50,000 people die in Scotland every year on average, when people register with a doctor they have or get an SNHS number. Transfer. People born in Scotland get a SNHS number at birth. People have an NI number.
Postal votes have a unique? number on and are sent out to an address. The address corresponds to an electoral address. Council tax when people move the council tax local authorities send out notification. When they go from one address to the other the council (tax) authorities want to know where they have gone. They check up. It corresponds to the electoral roll. Required by Law. They can be fined, Officials go to the address and check if there is not reply to letters. The electoral roll is updated.
A appeal can be made to EU court of human rights. To appeal any London Court decision. Appeal to the EU Courts gained (limited) Devolution. It could gain Independence. A right to another IndyRef. Upholding the right to self determination and self governance. If people vote for it. The reason Scotland got (limited) Devolution.
The EU Courts upholding/democratic right. Democracy. If people vote for it. EU/UN International Law. Westminster has to abide by it. Or be sanctioned. Politicians who make the Law cannot break the Law. Or they can be put in jail. Taken to court.
To do a postal vote you fill in an application form and send it to the council giving your reasons.
Nobody checks your signature.
The postal vote is then sent to your address in advance of the vote.
If you live in England for example you would need an address in Scotland from which to do the postal vote.
Nobody will visit the address to check you actually live there.
If it’s a relatives address or a friends address and they are willing to send the postal vote on to you or simply fake your signature on it you are home and dry with the fraud.
If you own a holiday home or a property you rent out or own a property for any other reason you can claim that you live in it nobody is going to check that you do live in it and all you need to do is pay a few quid to the Royal Mail have your mail redirected to your address in England including your postal votes job done .
Same if you live overseas.
Many many people in care homes don’t vote they have lost interest or are incapable but relatives or close friends handle their affairs it’s a major problem because many of these relatives and friends steal the money of the person in care they are supposed to be helping and again it’s easy to get the bank card of a person in a care home and use their PIN number to get them money and steal from them at the same time as well as forge their signature on all manner of things including postal votes and proxy votes.
Proxy votes are talked about less than postal votes but just as easily cheated, if you are away working driving a lorry or something or on the oil rigs you can nominate someone to vote for you but often the person isn’t just away working or on an oil rig or working long shifts they are actually living abroad and have been for years.
As I’ve said before nobody checks that a signature on a postal vote or proxy vote application or the actual vote itself is genuinely the voters signature.
Checking signatures is not an exact science hardly anyone gets convicted for forging a signature because the only evidence that will convict them really is an admission.
So the ammunition the council uses is getting applicants to sign a declaration threatening fines or prison but it never happens unless someone is daft enough to admit the fraud.
It really is that loose a system
It’s why government moved away from pension books and giro,s both of which were rife with fraud they couldn’t prove and all because of inability to check with certainty that a signature is genuine
Ken500
Most voters are not householders and do not pay council tax
They are what are commonly referred to as nonhouseholders for example living with parents.
Registration of deaths goes to the registrars office yes and various agencies of government go to the registrars office to check the register of deaths to do things like try and recover debts unpaid council tax etc from their estate.
There is no automatic process for linking a death notification to all government departments
( central and local) to ensure that records are changed in fact it is common that when a person dies it is registered with the registrars office when a relative or friend does this so they can then organise the funeral because funeral directors need this done before they will arrange a funeral but often the friend or relative does not tell other organisations such as the council such as DWP or the war pensions office etc etc and pensions both government and private continue getting paid long after death votes too are made long after death , bills are run up and then the same old problem arises which is as soon as the authorities find that the recipient is deceased which can be weeks or months or years later, the friend or relative that has been profiting by having the deceased persons PIN number just ceases activity .
Postal voting and proxy voting is open to fraud in the same way as the other things I’ve mentioned here.
Ken500
The electoral roll is very unreliable there are actually two electoral rolls now but that’s bye the bye neither is reliable or up to date.
Many many people move house and don’t tell the council they continue to let the council think they still live with their parents and get their mail sent to their parents perhaps because mail delivery is safer etc.
Couples might put the rent and council tax in one persons name the one who is unemployed whilst the one who works is still saying to the council that they live with mum and dad that way the social security and housing benefit offices don’t stop paying benefits to the unemployed person on grounds that their partner has a wage so the one who is working gets their postal vote sent to mum and dads and not to the address where they live then the one who is working separates from their partner and goes to work and live in England and says to mum and dad fill in my postal vote forge my signature nobody will ever know.
There is zero tie up with voting and NI numbers or health service numbers
The whole system in archaic Ken
ahundredthidiot
You are not nuts, make no mistake the British state machine is already at work and will go into overdrive in the next few months.
Complacency is our worst enemy.
Re sectarian marches;
Is it possible for the local authority to dictate and decide the route of the march?
E.g. get them to march round the track of the local sports ground. Thise interested can go and see them in the ground.
A bit Nurumberg rally-ish but if the face fits etc.
Enough of this totally tedious bull.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17903686.major-new-poll-shows-overwhelming-support-indyref2/
Just get on with it SNP…..
Procrastination is the thief of time and opportunity.
Postal voting is the easiest thing in the world for Westminster to tamper with.
The government provides the forms, the number of forms, the boxes they are stored in,
The seals on the boxes, The rooms the boxes are stored in.
Anyone think MU5 or MI6 couldn’t overnight swap the real forms and boxes for the ones
With the results that they requested.
The BBC are to have a B added.
Bigoted Biased Bastards and the C seems obvious.
The reiterating in the Marches is just like the manufactured and forced reporting of pre war
Germany.
The Republican march was properly licensed and organised.
Orange Order supporters decided they would act outside the
Law and try to attack the march.
They put the Police and general public were endangered and they were
Prevented from going about their daily business.
Vandalism and fire raising mixed in with their violent threats.
The OO now try to blame the Republicans for their Unionists Bile and threats
Being prevented from our streets.
The BBBC of course only give their Unionist friends air time to shout foul and decry
The Republican movement.
We need new laws were marchers can have an available park to gather as blocking
Our streets is no longer an option.
Those Against any gathering can protest outside them park but any unacceptable behaviour
Will be tacked by the riot squad. Those arrested will be severely punished with custodial sentences
Access to police film footage will be made available to the media and any BBBC editor distorting
The visible facts of any events will answer for their crimes of generating civil unrest will also be imprisoned.
Boris “The Inconsequential Bulk” Johnson threatens to “get angry”, the EU Pisses itself laughing.
Ken500
Unlike some others I don’t write to have snidey digs at other posters. But you’re a wee bit mixed up there.
There is the European Court of Human Rights. Nothing to do with EU. It’s Council of Europe. ( UK Tory Govts have long wanted out of this). This is the one that gets most publicity: Human Rights Act 1998.
There is Court of Justice of the European Union. Which deals with alleged breaches of EU law. EU also has the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which are very similar to the Human Rights. (UK opted out of making these directly actionable in court in the UK).
Sunday Politics Scotland – situation normal, full-on 100mph Yoon propaganda, spouted unchallenged. FFS, they are STILL using the “You will have to use the Euro” argument.
They are in full-blown panic mode now.
Maybe you should have to show/scan (NI cards should be made scanable) your NI card at any polling station and your NI number should be on any postal vote? Would that help? No NI card/number, no vote.
In Spain for instance everyone has an ID card of some sort. Whether you are Spanish or foreign. The number on your card is unique to you. The card does not invade privacy, It does not cost a lot of money. The card is used everywhere, by everyone regardless of nationality.
Not sure what information is on the Spanish peoples card, but the one for other EU nationals has name, DOB, Place of Birth, Your unique ID number, Your nationality, Your address in Spain and the date it was issued.
Anyone with a bank account or a passport or a mortgage in the uk gives over more information than that.
Giving Goose @9:48
re LA deciding the route of marches – this can be quite tedious and time consuming and to a certain extent is already happening.
A far better option is to convince Organisers (OO & Republican) to go to somewhere like Glasgow Green for the day. This way all the marchers can be amongst their own and it is much easier to Police. Nobody can claim to being offended. everyone wins. Hell, give them it free for the next five years to get the deal over the line, then start to charge them.
One thing is for sure, both Organisations and their following are living in the last Century (or beyond) and have no place marching through streets causing offence, but banning things can be a dangerous game. ‘First they come for the sons of bitches, then they come for the rest of us’
Sunday Politics Scotland
The Britnat chat show is back. Deputy political editor of the The Dail Mail allowed, unchallenged by Brewer, to go through her list of reasons that an independent Scotland won’t be allowed into the EU. I actually think she believed all the points she made. Everyone of them totally debunked years ago. A perfect example of the calibre of journalists working in Scotland. Propaganda writers or too stupid to realise they spout propaganda.
Al-Stuart says:
14 September, 2019 at 12:28 pm
Certainly willing to support such a petition.
Ian
Effijy says:
“We need new laws”
Do we?
We have an abundance of laws concerning rowdy, violent, disorderly, riotous and anti-social behavior also laws prohibiting the aiding and abetting of the same, as well as laws for inciting others to commit unlawful acts.
We just need to apply them a bit more rigorously and in the case of the bigot brothers, make it clear that the”hate crime” multiplier will be applied in full.
@Terry callachan says: at 9:15am
“To do a postal vote you fill in an application form and send it to the council giving your reasons.
Nobody checks your signature.
The postal vote is then sent to your address in advance of the vote.
If you live in England for example you would need an address in Scotland from which to do the postal vote.
Nobody will visit the address to check you actually live there.
If it’s a relatives address or a friends address and they are willing to send the postal vote on to you or simply fake your signature on it you are home and dry with the fraud.
If you own a holiday home or a property you rent out or own a property for any other reason you can claim that you live in it nobody is going to check that you do live in it and all you need to do is pay a few quid to the Royal Mail have your mail redirected to your address in England including your postal votes job done. Same if you live overseas.”
Just a couple of points.
To apply for a postal vote you need to be on the electoral roll already as submitting just a postal vote application form by itself is not enough to get an individual registered onto the electoral roll.
Therefore for those not already registered, they would require to fill in a register to vote form, as well as the postal vote application form.
I understand where you are coming from with regard verifying the signatures genuinely belong to the individuals named on each postal vote application.
That said the signatures on the postal vote applications are digitally scanned (it’s very important the signatures are contained within the shaded box on the application form or they will be rejected) during the application process, so they can be compared during the verification satge of submitted postal vote ballots at the later stage.
It should be relatively easy to keep close scrutiny over the electoral roll by using the databases that all political parties utilise, along with local knowledge of areas that both campaigners and activists will have.
Just keep comparing each updated version of the electoral roll with preceding ones to highlight the changes and it’ll show up very useful information.
The Conservative party get their vote out by keeping on top of, and in touch with their supporters, so emulating what they do would be good a plan.
Brewer like Alistair Darling declared themselves to be Trotskyites as young men.
This was obviously their cover story give by the Tory Elitists to infiltrate the Labour
Party and UK Media.
If you timed Brewer’s interruptions after asking an SNP representative a question
It would be sub 10 seconds. When asking a Unionist a question they are free to waffle
On for as long as they like.
His show is so well balanced when he has a rabid mad Unionist and then a support act Unionist
For continuity.
Loved an earlier segment when Jo Jolly Hockey Sticks Swinson was warned about those bad SNP
sorts going to contest her seat. I think you’ll find that SNP will be contesting all Scottish seats and
As she got the seat 4 years ago she is very likely to lose it.
The woman who backs up Westminster Unionism that introduced EVEL
the law that stops Scottish based MPs from becoming Prime Minister.
She is a delusional superstar!
She had done nothing for her constituency or Scotland and yet thinks she is Prime Minister material ?
Deputy political editor of Daily Mail was lying for the Union. That is their job. Along with useless Brewer. They get pay for it, A high salary to lie. Ignorant, arrogant charlatans. Totally ignorant on facts and figures.
The Nine is not so bad. The Scottish channel some Scottish content. Alba has some good programmes. A Scandi series Enigma. Gripping. Mysterious.
Not everyone has a NI identification. It has been gone over before.
The electoral system is pretty tight for fraud. Checks and balances. The Council check up pretty throughly because of the Council tax. Tax system. They follow people about. Surveillance. The fraudsters get found out pretty easily. A short space of time. Until investigation. One candidate. Get charged and jailed.
The SNP are really good at identify and upgrading, informing their supporters. Really good campaigners. Thank to their good organising and hard work. All year round. Legally. People should give their support and join. Donate, campaign and canvass if they have time and ability. Every little helps. Passionate support. For a better world,
It is common knowledge the European Courts are a separate body. The EU collective is in Europe.
Fergus Green says:
15 September, 2019 at 8:13 am
A few days ago i was accused of ‘shit stirring’ for posting a link to an indy blog.
I apologise profusely Fergus. I really didn’t mean to single you out. It was the slanging match between two bloggers which I considered ‘inflammatory’. Please forgive my unfortunate turn of phrase.
The UK Westminster helped found the European Court of Human Rights after 11WW. It was a signatory. Now it disobey’s it’s the rules. It was founded to maintain rights. Stop starvation and war in Europe/world. It has been extremely successful.
The Council have a record of non council taxpayers. They are the means by which non council taxpayers receive their exemption. Non council tax payers inform the Council authorities of their circumstances/income. To get the rebate. The Council authorities issue the exemption.
Any (new) tenant /householder gets a letter from the council to declare their circumstances. The Council send out a letter to register to vote. People have to or get fined £4000. The Council sends out letters. If they are ignored. Someone from the council calls around. Eventually they must issue a court summons. They declare on the form if it is a second home or empty. The Council know from the electoral roll. Or landlord declaration. The landlord has to tell the council who is living in the property by law or pay the council tax. Landlords have to pay council tax even for empty properties. The owner occupiers are on the electoral roll. Or can be identified by the land register. The legal land register.
If someone dies the relatives or hospital/doctors authorities have to make a declaration of death/ certificate. They give the information to the death register at the Council The Council takes them off the electoral roll at the address. Otherwise their would be dead bodies all over the place. The fraudsters using their sent out numbered postal vote form to vote. Zombies. There is a legal requirement for a human burial. Although there is a missing person’s register.
Letter sent to the occupier.
Sunday smile time.
Ten years in a one-liner.
https://twitter.com/ThomasPride/status/1172905696226086912
Kids, eh. What do they know?
http://www.nagasaki-rugby.jp/?p=8458
Re Jo Swinson LibDem MP for East Dunbartonshire and her political recent history.
She consistently voted to reduce welfare and benefits, including cutting payments for people with illnesses or disabilities.
Also voted to cut the Educational Maintenance Allowance for 16-to-19-year-olds.
She helped to RAISE UNIVERSITY TUITION FEES fees in England.
Her track record on environmental issues, meanwhile, shows she supported the badger cull, fracking and HS2.
Labour and the SNP would have to sup with a long spoon when dining with Swinson.
Swinson is far more suited to supping with a Tory—-any one of them.
Swinson – a typical LibDem Yellow Tory careerist who genuinely believes that she is superior to everyone else.
I’ve known many like her, Jeez! The Highlands are full of them screwing up the Council and all acting with sneering condesention.
When far right Tories see them as a career saving lifeboat it tells you all you need to know.
O/T well done to John McPhee of Iban in the UK according to BT sport commentator after just missing out on a win at the San Marino Moto 3 Word Championship Race, he was 18th on the first lap stunning ride
A l b a TV has some good programmes. Enigma. Dark Scandi drama. Not to be missed
Willie Rennie would never vote for Indyref2. Boris could suspend parliament for a year, crash us out of Europe, raise the pension age to 80 and harvest the organs of our first born children and Willie would, Benny Hill style, still salute the Union Joke.
It was discussed briefly on radio shortbread this morning. David Pratt thought Willie is making a play for the gap left by Ruth. He also thought it was academic because no one listens to Willie.
@Breeks 12.09
Thanks for clarifying. No offence taken.
Any one care to tell me how can Jo Swinson ever be Prime Minister while she represents a Scottish constituency (EVEL)?
Sir Humphrey might describe the neither Liberal, nor Democratic Swinson (etymologists don’t need to work too hard here), & now her party, as ‘bold’, with this latest ill thought out gambit.
So Johnson’s response to being unable ro get Brexit through parliament is to shut parliament down. Perhaps he ought to reflect that the only reason he needs parliament’s permission is because of the ruling of a Scottish court. Theresa May never intended to have a vote on any deal she reached.
Should someone tell Boris that he has a solution? The ideas coming out of No 10 nowadays are so off the wall that this one below might just work.
Ask the EU for a withdrawal agreement for England, Wales and Northern Ireland only, including keeping NI within the backstop. Brexit doesn’t apply to Scotland which voted overwhelmingly to remain, having already voted to stay in the UK on the basis that this guaranteed their place in the EU also. Boris agrees to be bound by treaty to ensuring that the Scottish Parliament has all powers necessary to comply with EU rules and participate in EU structures. The UK parliament will bear the costs of any border controls as and when they become necessary.
If the EU agrees (and why wouldn’t they) he declares job done and under English law (Scots law not being applicable since nothing is being done which affects Scotland’s status)even if parliament descends into uproar, with half of the rest of his party walking out on him, legally they have no basis to stop him once he has signed the treaty.
Boris can then go to the country telling everyone that he has delivered what they voted for.
Sorry, but my disgust for British nationalism and British natuionalists only increases.
If Tim Farron had, just before the EU ref in 2016, remarked that it might be a once in a generation vote, and the Tory government had been using that as justification for not holding a second EU ref, would the Lib Dems have accepted Farron’s remark as constitutionally binding and refrained from demanding that second Euro ballot?
Or are the Lib Dems just hypocritical shysters?
@alistair x
Dunno why I called you Alex @12:36am – musta been the ‘X’ threw the predictive txt – or the McEwans Champion I was sampling.
Sorry about that, good luck anyway.
Just caught Seven Days on BBC catchup.
A failed Yellow Tory candidate and a prominent Rangers fan, Dan McCroskrie, offering their wisdom.
I would really question the inclusion of these two. What message does it send out?
McCroskrie’s twitter profile tells you all you need to know.
Thank goodness for Ryan McCuaig, who brought authenticity to the panel.
I see that in their latest get-together, the FibDems have given up on EURef2, instead they are going to campaign for a straight revocation of Art.50. So with one bound they were free: no longer will they have to suffer the manifest absurdity of advocating one ref while denying another. They can deny them all now!
LibDems struggling with the notion of Union. Swinson squirming and inconsistent in defending the Union as it affects NI, Wales and Scotland.
My belief is her seat is definitely winnable and we should be targeting West Edinburgh too.
Cole-Hamilton and Jardine could get a job in a circus as contortionists.Two faced.
The charge to Scottish taxpayers for PFI projects driven by Labour and Lib Dem Party administrations in Westminster and Holyrood will add up to £30billion over the coming decades.
https://caltonjock.com/2019/09/15/dangler-22-part-1-jo-swinsons-naked-ambition-is-to-be-returned-to-westminster-as-prime-minister-after-the-next-general-election-but-little-gummi-bear-should-be-returned-to-her-family-inst/
The charge to Scottish taxpayers for PFI projects driven by Labour and Lib Dem Party administrations in Westminster and Holyrood will add up to £30billion over the coming decades.
https://caltonjock.com/2019/09/15/dangler-22-part-1-jo-swinsons-naked-ambition-is-to-be-returned-to-westminster-as-prime-minister-after-the-next-general-election-but-little-gummi-bear-should-be-returned-to-her-family-inst/
Is it just me, or does anybody else think that every time Patel is on TV she is constantly smirking?
That is one dangerous liar Tory minister. You might think that, having been sacked from Cabinet previously, there might be a bit less of the supercilious attitude? Sorry the word ‘Tory’ explains it all.
Why anyone would accept a cobbled together agreement of a soft brexshit or Scotland being used as a facilitator to allow england to continue to think of itself as the big I am defies logic . I like others don’t want a soft brexshit still SHACKLED to the english imperialist morons , I WANT INDEPENDENCE from our imperialist overlords , have Scots not learned ANYTHING from the last 312 years
Is Scotland mired in poverty and stripped of all it’s manufacturing capability due to self immolation or is it because we have been lied to and abused by our neighbours mother of all parliaments , is this same MOAP which consisted of fellow ( SPIT ) Scots likely to change their ways and accept us as equal partners , ( if you believe that I have a very underused bridge for sale )
Remember the last time Scotland voted tories into power was approx 1959 yet the English do it on a regular basis and will continue to do so , PROBABLY also at the next GE , Scots may be small c conservative in a cautious way but they are far removed from the fcuk you jack I’m alright attitude that is prevalent coming from england
I personally am not interested in ANY soft brexshit which ties us to England in any way (other than trade deals ) and I am not interested in Scotland being used as a broker between england and the EU, as we have witnessed the english establishment want the undeliverable and anyone who does not grant that demand becomes THE ENEMY of GREAT BRITAIN or as is perceived ENGLAND
the lib dems are the scrappy-doos of politics – game as fuck – but totally inconsequential
barpe@5.39
Was she not the one who wanted to give UK foreign aid money to the Israeli Government?
@ barpe 5.39pm I have made this observation on numerous occasions, I would dearly love for some (ahem ) interviewer to ask , does she think that whatever question is asked is funny , if not why is she smirking it would at least bring it to everyone’s attention , condescension and supercilliousness abound in this amoral individual
Gary45%
Her sacking was due to “off the books meetings” with the Israeli government – make of that what you will, I suppose. Very possible that you are correct.
Given the recent postings here on the weaknesses of postal voting (which Craig Murray’s petition at
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/09/petition-for-official-international-observers-for-next-scottish-independence-referendum/
might alleviate), it’s time to look again at that worrying report from the Dunoon group showing endemic fraud in the 2014 postal ballot. Here’s my recent analysis:
https://scotlandisdifferent.wordpress.com/2019/09/15/construe-as-mince/
I dream’t the Ruth Rennie and Willie Davidson Parties lost all their deposits.
Freedom and Independence go Hand in Hand
There’s a Goddamn Indyref2 slogan right there!
Better use Robert Burns.
“Freedom and Independence gang thegither”
Boris
Makes tou wonder if PFI was also perceived as a weapon to be used against the case for Independence i.e. portrayed as debt when the time came.
barpe
Specifically, Touting UK aid for an Israeli field hospital in The Golan, which was quietly patching up IS casualties.
And now, back from the wilderness already. Like Atlantic bridges enthusiast, the odious Dr Fox.
You couldn’t make it up.
The LibDems saying if an anti Brexit party wins, then it should be cancelled with no further referendum.
The LibDems now saying if Brexit happens, then an anti Brexit party wins later, there should be a reapplication to join the EU.
Sounds fair enough. Democracy in action.
So, if that doesn’t transpire for England, but does happen in Scotland you’d think the LibDems would be semi pleased. Nope. Never. No way. For the LibDems retaining Greater England is actually their highest priority.
Robert Kerr @6:46
Ideally, yes, but we’ve lost ground in terms of lingo. Folks now pronounce Border as ‘boarder’, so, respect to the Great Bard, but modern day English is best……remember who we are trying to convince.
Once we win, we can Scots Wae Hae awe we like….like
Rick H Johnston @ 14:47:
It would certainly be as satisfying as seeing Danny Alexander being given his P45 back in 2015. But you can be sure that the FibDems would be ready to starve party no-hopers elsewhere in order to massively fund her defence to try to fend off that dire (for them) outcome. Remember that “unused leaflets” thing back in 2017?
O/T
BBC NI has produced and is showing a seven part documentary, “Spotlught on the Trouble: A Secret History” Part one is on YouTube. Parts 2 to 7 to be shown. Sky channel 953 on Wednesdays at 9.00.
Come on Donalda why not screen this here as well?
Slugger O’Toole is uploading it onto youTube. Episode one is also on the Net
Link
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/09/14/saturday-film-bbc-spotlight-a-secret-history-of-the-troubles-part-1/
@ahundredthidiot
Good try but no cigar pal.
I know exactly who to target with my slogan. A working class Tory voter, Daily Mail reader and Freemason who can recite quite a few Burns poems.
We only have to win over one each from No to Yes!
Usually up to Sundays but thought I’d have a lazy day and watched more of the various channels news programmes than I usually do.
Obviously Brexit dominated everything but maybe it is just me but the language of country and nation dominates it. There is also the language of a divided and polarised nation used as well.
It is hard to say what they mean by nation or country. Scotland is a nation and a country yet we are not divided or polarised. In fact, we are probably more united and becoming more increasingly so than on anything else.
Of course the definition of country and nation is different from that which ordinary Scots has of them. It is frustrating to see how that can’t be used in the push to get another indyref.
On a slightly different note, I see yer man Van Rompuy has come out and said that the EU would treat the application of an independent Scotland more sympathetically. That was a bit different to say the least than what he said the last time. I saw a quite an illuminating comment by him in the BBC article about this which I am not going to provide a link for:
I’ll bet that stuck in their craw having to print that LOL.
So Willie Rennie has picked up (t)Ruthless’ torch and is going all out for No indy ref 2, No surrender, never. Lib dems going to become the nasty party in Scotland.
But how is that going to work – don’t a lot of Unionists want to Leave the EU…
English Lib Dems to vote for ‘Revoke’, Scottish Lib Dems for ‘stay in the UK’ Confused?
If the majority in England is for Leave and majority in Scotland is for Indy not sure this policy will win them much advancement. Seems they need to win over 300 seats to become the party of power…. so PM Swinson is a long way off.
Swinson, then just 24, was already a rising star in the party, famous among other things for wearing a pink T-shirt with the slogan, “I am not a token woman”.
https://caltonjock.com/2019/09/15/dangler-23-part-2-jo-swinson-minister-for-women-in-the-con-dem-coalition-champions-womens-rights-and-defends-them-against-abuse-but-evidently-not-when-her-political-ambitions-are-at-risk/
There is a massive amount of coverage, espesh the EVENING TIMES about MARCHING, bans, with claim and counter-claim – the culprits pretending to be victims. I wouldn’t bother reading it – the interesting stuff is usually in the comments, but a lot of these are deleted.
100s of books have been written on ireland, the north, “the troubles” – not a lot can be said in a comment, but BEN MADIGAN POSTED A GOOD VID LINK last night, which is well worth a watch and I did the whole thing this afternoon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3scz1KD9eE
– it’s a perfect demonstration of “how not to do things” and “what you don’t want to happen”; it’s not an easy watch at times – the worst bit for me was a woman shot in the face with a rubber bullet while standing in her own living room (she was blinded) and she is standing in the street, her daughter screaming and sobbing uncontrollably.
– someone shooting yer ma in the face and blinding her; that sort of thing would put a gun in anyone’s hand.
Another one, a wee boy is shot dead – he is in own house with his dad, hiding, but the walls are so pisspoor thin the bullets pierce them like paper.
The british state demonstrates a combination of catastrophic stupidity, a complete tone-deafness as to what is really going on, plus a combination of at times, cowardice and at others over-the-top ultraviolence. At no time, did they ever get it right in terms of politics, policing, or tactics, so it spiralled out of control. They dive in, late in the day, and do the wrong thing. Or make some half-measure which leaves a mess – some people tell me the GFA “solved nothing” and it’s all just boiling under, again.
Life is a fight against “bounded rationality” – what to do, with incomplete information. Some things can be left to sort themselves out, other things, they need to be nipped in the bud. I think the councils, scotgov, the lodges, football fans organisations – need to get together for a pow-wow, and thrash out an agreement, or be read the riot act.
Much as they annoy the shit out of me – Lanarkshire boy – I would not stop the mad prods from having their marches, but they cannot claim for themselves rights others do not have, nor say “we – but not thee”. There is also the matter of sheer amount, which makes their activities of a different nature to anyone elses; quantity is a different quality of its own. 600 “hun” marches a year – is this not excessive? It is noticeable that in Edinburgh, a pretty unionist and indeed, masonic town – they do not stand for this nonsense.
You cannot argue “freedom of protest” etc anymore – this is intimidatory, provocative, inciteful and triumphalist.
If the Orange Lodge are serious, and they seem to be less crazy than their camp followers – they have to make some concession about what is fair, and stop the silly rhetoric about conspiracies to deprive the rights of protestants. Come on.
The problems are down to – one group – being allowed to get away with shit no one else can, and this is another general problem we have in Scotland – there is more than enough law on our books to handle any situation, but the trouble is it is applied selectively and unevenly (- this is why a lot of Celtic fans were against the OBFA).
Historically, the empire was very good at -creating- fault lines and rivalries to exploit – the whole ulster plantation, of course; even stalin copied the idea, transplanting peoples willy nilly. The french acted similarly – the rwandan hutu-tutsi problem, something they were ultimately responsible for.
Old warnings about “divide and conquer” also come to mind. We are Scottish only.
Boris says
Giving Goose
But surely Scots aren’t that stupid!!!!
Funny how our wonderful media have failed to comment on the fact that while Carcrash Carlaw got a CBE Saint Ruth and Fluffy got sod all..
Incidentally where is Saint Ruth – is she still drawing her Holyrood MSP salary?
ahundredthidiot
Admittedly I’m a bit of a Philistine but I think the main point of poetry and literature in general, is to convey some sort of emotion, idea or information to the reader.
Which being fluent in neither “Double Broon’s” nor the gibberish that passed as language in 15th century England, as a schoolboy, a trip to the dentists seemed more palatable than being force-fed the works of Shakespeare and Burns.
Robert Kerr @8:16
with respect….your pissing into a force 9 gale with those types.
they are terrified wee boys who need to be in a gang with illusions of superiority – idiots all.
Hands up if you needed Cameron’s book to tell you Gove is a creeping wee back stabber.
Stand in the corner if you didn’t know Bojo the Clown joined the Brexit bandwagon to further
His political career.
Pick a window to leave if you didn’t know Pritti Awful Patel would stand on anyone who got
In the way of her and her fascist tendencies being the centre of attention.
Cameron is immensely wealthy with with at least £50 Million tucked away without
Counting his wife’s mega fortune but he’ll be hoping to add another few million from
Global book sales.
Do you remember all the benefits Cameron claimed when his handicapped son was alive?
Sure he was entitled to them but morally could you fill in all those benefits forms when you
Have more money than you could ever spend?
Later of course he and the Tories attacked those needing benefits mobility cuts, Atos killers,
The Bedroom Tax and Universal Credit.
Robert Kerr / ahundredthidiot.
Now, now, boys. Why not go for a compromise – and go for a more up-to-date version? 🙂
15. (of 20)
Scots Wha Hae – Reprise
Scots, wha hae wi’ Salmond bled,
Scots, wham Sturgeon has aften led,
Welcome tae yer gory bed
Or tae destiny.
Now’s the day, an’ now’s the hour:
Seize oor chance a’ last fir power.
See the fearties start tae cower.
Scotland will be free!
Wha will be as cruel as Tojo?
Wha will bow tae Lunnon’s BoJo?
Wha sae base as lose his mojo?
Let him turn an’ flee.
Wha fir Scotland’s Pride an’ Aw’
Freedom’s sword will strongly draw?
Bondsman stand or Freeman fa’:
Let him follow me.
By th’ oppressive woes and pains,
Of oor sons in servile chains,
We will drain oor dearest veins
But we shall be free!
Lay Westminster oh so low.
Traitors fall – like every foe.
Liberty’s oors wi’ every blow!
Let us vote fir SNP!
______
[With acknowledgements]
Songs for the New Politics
2013-2019
Marching,marching, I remember as a child watching OO stewards wiping hair and flesh from these funny chair legs batons they carry as they stridently stepped flutedly and drum burstingly past the chapel in Maryhill Road.As a wee proddy I thought what a demented shower they were. That white horse guy with the bible on a cushion was pure sacrilege to me a devout Calvinist.
I have now put away childish things and now see the OO as thugs to be despised and scorned.
All my pals at school were BB members and Rangers supporters and the more intelligent among them shared my shame at being forced to support the bullying shites in the OO. But we could not laugh out loud as we were tempted as the OO still has a little of its poison left.
Dear fellow Wingers, I have been of late a wee bit upset by some of the below the line postings here,I’m sure you know the less than completely wholesome things said.
But let’s put it in perspective….
I recently was accepted as a ‘member’ of the Brexit facebook page and honestly I don’t know how much more of it I can read….popping up every time I log in to Facebook.
I only did it because I believe in the dictum ‘Know your enemy’ but frankly……..I’d prefer not to.
I don’t know how long I can stand this (48Hrs so far) before I block all the shit.
It has however, taught me two things.
1. BTL in Wings is a haven of peace and rational thought.
2. I have no idea how the Rev wades through the shite he does on our behalf, without completely loosing it.
UK Parliament prorogation.
England’s common law = Lawful
Scotland’s common law = Unlawful.
The UK Supreme Court will hear the appeals on starting on Tuesday.
This could be billed as the big showdown:
Scotland’s common law on democracy v England’s common law on democracy
http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/court-challenges-prorogation
Sorry, Welsh Sion, but I still belive our new National Anthem should be Auld Lang Syne.
1. Everybody knows it
2. It plays well as a march
3 The whole world sings it at New Year.
4 (Except for viewers in England post independence…probably).
Robert Peffers
See also: “George Buchanan’s De Jure regni apud Scotos
OR A Dialogue, concerning the due Priviledge of Government in the Kingdom of Scotland”.
Considered by many to be the authoritative dialogue on Scotland’s constitutional traditions ( cited by the Petitioners in the Cherry case).
Originally written in latin, the English translation can be found here:
http://downloads.it.ox.ac.uk/ota-public/tcp/Texts-HTML/free/A29/A29958.html
Robert Peffers
Also cited by the petitioners regarding Scotland’s traditional constitutional law:
“The kings of Scotland hadno prerogative distinct from supremacy above the law (Rutherford: Rex Lex (1660) question XLIII)”
“Whether the king of Scotland be an absolute prince, having a prerogative above laws and parliaments
“… The parliament of Scotland doth regulate, limit, and set bounds to the king’s power…”
http://www.constitution.org/sr/lexrex.htm
It Ken500
Ken I’m sorry to repeat this to you but you are wrong about the registration to vote system being secure and up to date.
It isn’t.
The council do not go around checking that people who say their son or daughter lives in their house actually does live in their house in fact the checking that is done which is very minimal is checking for people who say they have nobody else living in their house when in fact they do have someone else living in their house.
The reason people say they have nobody else living in their house when in fact they do is so that they can get the 25% reduction in council tax as a sole occupant or they can avoid the non dependant charge affecting their housing benefit which is applied if for example you get maximum housing benefit and council tax benefit on low income grounds but someone moves in with you eg a son or daughter who works in those circumstances the council take away your maximum housing benefit and council tax benefit and tell you that you have to start paying some more because the person who has moved in with you is expected to contribute to the cost or rent and council tax if they work.
Non householders are not sent letters asking where they live for voting records it is only the householder that is sent a letter by the council and the householder has to declare who lives in their house.
Mums and dads regularly fill in the form saying their sons and daughters still live with them when they do not and in those circumstances the sons and daughters have the cover they need to do a postal vote if they live outside of Scotland , the council definitely do not ever ever ever visit mum and dad to say “ are you sure your son and daughter still live with you “
Just doesn’t happen ken
The council are looking for people who DO NOT declare people living in their house
They’re not checking on people who DO declare others living in their house
Take it from one who knows KEN
I worked for decades for DWP investigating hand in hand with the councils checking on couples who were
“ living together as husband and wife “
but the wife was claiming maximum council tax benefit and housing benefit and income support for her and the children saying she was a single parent and separated from the children’s dad when in fact her partner the dad of her two three four children was living with her and working full time but giving his address to the authorities including the council his work HMRC etc as his mum and dads address.Why live off one wage when you can tell this lie and get social security free rent free council tax etc etc
The system is poor , easily bypassed, the council records just like DWP records are abysmal they don’t really know where a lot of the population actually live because so many people give false addresses for all sorts of reasons at the time I did that job I was the only person covering the whole of Dundee.
They don’t even visit people now to check that kind of thing because it would cost so much to do so and no sooner did we complete an investigation correct and withdraw benefits to find that a couple of weeks later the same people claiming again in same circumstances joining the three month investigation queue again.
People who own properties in Scotland but don’t live in them can claim that they do live in them simply by filling in the declaration form sent to them by the council.
The council do not visit to check that you are actually resident at the address you give, if you send back the form they accept it.
All you need to do is get your mail to that address redirected to wherever you do actually live and that’s so easy just fill in a form online Royal Mail.
In the case of landlord and tenant this happens
The council do not check and query why a person (a) is registered to vote at the same address as person (b) as long as person (a) declares himself as the householder he will be sent the form by the council asking who lives in the house and all he does is put down his own name and the name of the tenant , the tenant will not be sent any forms because the owner is the householder and he gets them.
Person (a) is the owner of the property but doesn’t live in it he lives in Spain
Person (b) is the tenant he works he doesn’t claim any benefits he pays the rent to the bank acc of Person (a)
Person (a) doesn’t declare to HMRC that he owns this property or that he has income from it or his other properties and the HMRC do not do any checks on the thousands and thousands of people getting income from rent on which they pay zero tax.
If the owner wants the tenant to pay the council tax rather than have it included in the rent then the owner just uses a friends address or parents address etc etc
It’s all so easy
The council is only interested in maximising income from rent they’re not interested in checking where people actually live they don’t have the staff
@Confused (9.26) –
Well said sah/madam!
😉
@ Terry Callachan at 11.47
You are right that councils check those who do not declare who is living with them as opposed to those who do, but this
ceased to be correct with the introduction of Individual Voter Registration. It is no longer the case that a head of household can register others to vote.
We chanced across this in our friends house tonight.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008k8d
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008k8d/cyprus-avenue
You’ll maybe need the iPlayer thingy to view now find it or you-tube.
Ignore the crappy, conflationary luvvy intro from the Kirsty Wark Crone.
Great acting performances.
Sometimes the critics get it nearly right!
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/theater/cyprus-avenue-review-stephen-rea.html
ta,ianb – back at you, always read yer stuff
hackalumpoff – great catch; will watch – saw a snatch of this by accident earlier on, thought “oh this looks interesting”. synchronicities, all round.
to the rev: wile e. coyote has declared for scottish nationalism – is currently constructing a massive elastic band between ireland and norway … watch this space
– bed now!
OT
Sorry to be off topic but maybe some WoSer can help.
In England, the queen of England is above the law. What is the position of the queen of Scots, her being chosen by Sovereign Scots, with regard to her breaking Scots law while resident in Scotland?
Under the terms of the Treaty Union, England and Scotland would have a shared Protestsnt Monarchy. A separate Church (Education because it was Churches who educated people), a separate legal system, There was some suggestion of joint Law. Scotland should be treated equally, That the Treaty could be dissolved if the terms were broken. It would be decided with agreement between representatives of each country.
The Treaty terms were broken before the ink was dried. There was rioting in the streets and petitions raising and sent to Edinburgh. The people in Scotland did not support the Treaty. The people in Scotland did not want to pay taxes to support Westminster foreign wars. Or conscription.
The people in Scotland were betrayed and did not agree with the terms of the Treaty. It made them worse off. Edward 1, James 1/6, Treaty of Union Anne, Jacobite uprising 1915/45 against rule from London. Bonny Prince Charlie, highland Clearances, migration, 1WW, (Royals caused), 11WW (result of 1WW), Boer War, India occupation, illegal Partition of Ireland, troubles, Palestine annex Iraq War, Trident Poll tax etc. All caused by Westminster, unionists lying to the detriment of Scotland. Illegal involvement. Ruining the Scottish economy and depopulating Scotland.
Thatcher/Westminster secretly taking the Oil revenues to fund London S/E. Totally secretly lying. Keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act, Leaving Scotland in poverty, Still going on. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret illegally for 100 years,
Scotland has never been treated equally by Westminster. Outvoted 10 to 1 Devolution is limited powers. Limited by unionists, often not voted for in Scotland.
Westminster put taxes on people in Scotland and imposed conscription, To fight in Westminster (illegal). wars. Westminster Gov, has imposed taxes on Scotland and involved Scotland in illegal wars. Westminster has milk Scotland dry to take monies from Scotland for Westminster mismanagement. Against the people’s wishes. Monies which could be put to better use. Brexit. Westminster imbeciles try to impose on Scotland. Against the wishes of the Scottish people. The people of Scotland are not being treated equally.
Scotland can obtain an S30 through the Courts because it is not being treated equally, Breaking the Terms of the Treaty of Union. The action Johanna Cherry is pursuing through the Courts could result in Scotland having the right to another legal IndyRef. Through the European Court of human rights. The reason Scotland achieved (limited) Devolution. The democratic rught to self determination and self government. If people vote for it. A human rights enshrined in Devolution in Scotland.
The people in Scotland just need to vote for it. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. If there is a Wings list Party so be it.
Lesley Evans/unionists imposed D’Hond’t/PR illegally to muck up the Scottish economy and prevent Scottish Independence. The PR systems favours the unionist/opposition. Under FPTP Scotland would have been Independent and much better run, with a better economy. A voting system the voters do not understand. Neither does anyone else. It is not Democratic. One person one vote is democratic. Not so random PR system no one understands. Campaign to change it.
The LibDems are such liars it is embarrassing. Just unbelievable. Trying to line their pockets on other people’s misery. Total greedy hypocrites. The Westminster party imbeciles are a complete disgrace. They could not make a bigger mess. Cameron and Osbourne and the rest should be put in jail. They are trying to destroy the world economy, again. People are dying because of it. It is disgusting how they lie. Brexit catastrophe,
Its the govt at Westminster who is in breach of the law not HM Queenie although it is time thetcwere asked to step down from their unelected positions of privilege.
@PacMan says:15 September, 2019 at 8:45 pm:
” … I see yer man Van Rompuy has come out and said that the EU would treat the application of an independent Scotland more sympathetically. That was a bit different to say the least than what he said the last time.”
Oh! For heaven’s sake, PacMan, Van Rompuy is still trying to act against Scotland but what saddens me is that Wingers just can’t see why.
The United Kingdom is just that, a united kingdom. It is not, and never has been a unified country. Yes it is the member STATE in the European union but it is not either the country nor the Kingdom of England.
So the real situation, and Von Whitsit probably knows it better than many of the Wingers on this blog, is that the member state of the European Union called, “The United Kingdom”, is legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms and that gives the EU a legal problem that their own courts will have to face.
The dilemma is that as the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms and one of them has voted to remain in the EU and the other voted to leave then each kingdom has an equal right to get what they voted for.
Von Rompuy is either attempting to claim Westminster is legally England’s parliament when it is legally the UK parliament or he is claiming that The Kingdom/country of Scotland is a colony of the country of England.
So even if Westminster has been acting as the de facto parliament of England any competent lawyer can prove with Hansard that the United Kingdom is in fact a united kingdom and no one has been elected to serve in a parliament of England since 30 April 1707. There cannot be an actual parliament of England when no one is elected to be a member of it.
Yet there isn’t a topic on Wings where some Winger or other doesn’t refer to England as either the Westminster parliament or refers to England when the enemy isn’t England it is Westminster that is played by the big majority of English MPs as if Westminster were the actual parliament of England.
No wonder some long time posters, including me, are only posting occasionally.
I’m away to do something more useful posting here is a waste of time. There is more criticism of the FM, SG and SNP on Wings than there is of Westminster and the unionist MPs.
Scottish legal system based on Latin Law. English Law based on Roman Law, Scottish legal system. Equal four estates. King (Scottish king or likewise) Nobles, Church and the people. Equal rights. A consortium based in Law. King was equal to the people. The King was beholden to the people had rights and duties to perform but must be just. The King went around the country administration justice. The ‘Crown Court’.
Alexander 111. Scottish King died, At Kinghorn. The King went around the country with the Court. To different Castles (parts) To administrate justice. Decide in disputes. Judge. The King served the people. A tithe (a tenth) was raised given to the King/Crown. The different Castles provided the King with board and lodging and food. The Nobles. Often Infighting. ‘Declaration at Arbroath’ people were equal. People had sovereignty
Clans primogeniture came down through the female line. The strongest leader chosen.
In England the Nobles gave allegiance to the Crown. Norman French. The people served the King. The ‘divine right to rule’. Direct right from God, God’s representative on earth. Religious concept. Male primogeniture. Hereditary. hierarchical.
Religion kept people in line. Form of state control. Be good follow the rules. Go to heaven. Be bad go to hell. ‘Divine right to rule’. Idea King God’s representative on earth. Ideal Serve the King. Serve good on earth. Go to heaven. Tied up in religious faith.
Church membership is falling. Old ladies (out live men) Elderly community. Queen head of State. Protestant head of Church. Terms of the Treaty of Union. No Catholic monarch. Catholic’s turn to Rome. Pope representative of God on earth. Go to heaven. Religious belief.
In Scotland 30% Protestant Church. 16% Catholic Church. Other random religions. Muslin or Jewish small %. Scotland is secular, The Queen/Monarchy is not so popular in Scotland as in the rest of the UK. Scotland more republican?
The Union of the Crowns. Jame1/6. 1625 died. Bonfire plot 1605. King Charles 1 (son) from 1625. Executed. Fell out the English Parliament, Bonfire plot. November. Oliver Cromwell, Puritan defeated Charles 11. Charles 11 fled to France. Oliver Cromwell died. 1653 King Charles 11 (Stuart) reinstated. Church of England, Anne of Orange, Treaty of Union 1707.
See Nana’s links here:
https://indyref2.space/nanas-links-2/
@ Hamish 100
‘ not HM Queenie ‘.
I would disagree with that assumption.
Firstly, I doubt very strongly that the Queen was lied to, I think she is mired up to her neck in all of this, but Scots law is innocent till proven guilty, Henry the VIII law was there to protect the Crown for just instances like this.
The Scots crown is subject to the law and the Scots Parliament. The ultimate arbiters of the Crown are the People of Scotland. I believe the Queen renegade on her Constitutional duty, as laid down in the Declaration of Arbroath, to the People of Scotland when she signed the EU withdrawal bill. The People of Scotland will decide whether or not she remains as Queen, appoint a Guardian or is replaced. Becoming a Republic is the other option. I would not be surprised if the Queen abdicated her Scottish Crown after the Independence vote rather than face sanction.
To crazycat.. I agree only the voter can register to vote but the point I was making is that only the householder is asked who lives at their address it is only the householder that gets the letter asking who lives at this address in fact the letter lists who they have on record as living at the address and simply says sign and return if correct or if incorrect tell us who has moved in or out.
The Coucil letter is sent to the ‘occupier’. If they do not know the occupier name. They are not registered to vote at the address. No one is registered to vote, letters sent Several times. It does not identify the occupier. The occupier? has to identify who is resident in the house.If it is ignored.Several letters are sent out. The council send someone out. To see if the house is occupied. Penalty is £4000 fine. Eventually a summons? to Court. Tax/council tax record. Internet can be accessed etc. Post code records. Big brother surveillance. Many association/businesses have access to elector roll/ postcode addresses. On the internet. They can look them up.
The ‘occupier’ (any household adult – over 18. Main one) has to identify all occupants of the household who is eligible to vote. It is then added to the electoral roll. The electoral register, is kept update every few years, letters sent. People use text or the internet to confirm details. If the household position is changed. People are left etc. The authorities ask where they have gone. Ask for addresses.
Dead people are taken off, when the death is register with the Council By the Doctor/hospital, or relative. A death certificate is required for burial. Dispose of human bodies as required by Law. The dead are supposed to be treated with dignity.
Quite expensive, The Council buries folk who have no relatives or are in poverty. Destitute. The deaths have to be informed within a certain time or be sanctioned. Fined. The council official keep the electoral roll up to date according to the death registration bu law, A legal burial requirement. People cannot bury people in their garden without informing the authorities. ie The council.
The Treaty of Union. Scotland and England to share a Protestant monarch. Guaranteed separate official Churches. Church of England, Church if Scotland. Establishment Churches. HoL.
The occupier can be fined £4000 for misinformation.
Ken 500
Now that is how I like to learn history
I find it so much easier to retain the information when laid out the way you have done so in your post at 7.20am, a well rounded picture of the important things
FAB
More please if you can
Thanks
I tell my wife I would like to be buried in our garden ( just kidding her )
My sons are shocked you can actually do this if you apply in advance to the council for permission
Golfnut
Whether you disagree or not its fact.
Robert @7-16
Agree with you.
Bill Hume @ 11.24 pm
Whilst I acknowledge your points and it’s not within my gift to tell Scots what to do with regard to any future National Anthem (or in fact anything else), it would have been nice to have at least had some acknowledgement of my creativity.
I tries (lie Popeye) to support your independence! 🙂
Oil prices have just surged. Spiked at $72 a barrel.
This could cause a worldwide recession. FTSE down. That should focus minds on whether a dirty ‘no-deal’ Brexit is a good idea on top of that!
And then there poor wee and sometimes considered stupid Scotland – stuck with all that increasingly expensive oil.
This mornings agree propaganda across the airwaves
UK politics finding a way to “ PUT THE COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER “
USA politics “ LOCKED AND LOADED “ ready to bomb IRAN
These are the two phrases you will hear all day on radio and tv from politicians and presenters across all party’s
What a bunch of sicko people they are conniving thieves
Nobody had ever ever ever been fined £4000 for misinformation
Brexit,Oil Wars,Joe Swindon PM,
anyone not stockpiling essentials ?
Car crash interview at 08.10 this morning on BBC R4 with Jo Swinson.
Asked outright re the new Lib Dem position –
EU referendum held in UK, she disagrees with the result therefore she has decided to cancel Brexit.
Surely Scotland entitled to the same stance re the 2014 Indy ref- they disagree with the result therefore they can cancel it and become independent.
Surely this is a matter of principle, consistency…..
Naw, she couldnae see the point he was making and (did you know,)she truly believes the best thing for Scotland is to stay in the UK , in the EU … so there you have it.
She wriggled and shouted and tried to outtalk the interviewer till he gave up and kept going on about SNP baad, but he squashed that and repeatedly tried to bring her back to answer his questions.
Maybe a better line for the interviewer would be to ask her why she voted against Revoking Article 50 when Joanna Cherry and the SNP won us the right to do exactly that but now going out on a limb to support it.
7:16am Thank goodness for the last paragraph.
UPDATED Nana’s links here:
https://indyref2.space/nanas-links-2/
THE CARBON MONOXIDE IN THE ROOM – STILL NEOLIBERALISM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/11/brexit-ultras-triumph-neoliberalism
“Neoliberalism is the ideology developed by people such as Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. It is not just a set of free-market ideas, but a focused discipline, deliberately applied around the world. It treats competition as humanity’s defining characteristic, sees citizens as consumers and “the market” as society’s organising principle. The market, it claims, sorts us into a natural hierarchy of winners and losers. Any attempt by politics to intervene disrupts the discovery of this natural order.
It was embraced by Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and most subsequent governments. They sought to implement the doctrine by cutting taxes, privatising and outsourcing public services, slashing public protections, crushing trade unions and creating markets where markets did not exist before. The doctrine was imposed by central banks, the IMF, the Maastricht treaty and the World Trade Organization. By shutting down political choice, governments and international bodies created a kind of totalitarian capitalism.”
With Brexit, ‘The Few’, the ‘winners’, smell very big money gains. While ‘The Many’, the general public, smell poverty, and, what George Osborne called, ‘default austerity’, in which ‘The Many’ find themselves imprisoned in a new order of deprivation.
And so we find ourselves being taken in by another Brexit-neo-liberal Big Lie, in which ‘Britain’ will prosper outside EU ‘control’, and go on to re-establish itself as a global super-power.
British Brexiters believe this Bullsh**.
No one has been fined for £4000 for misinformation because they cough up the information. Rather than be fined for misinformation. People would rather not falsely, fraudulently claim a vote. It is not worth it for most people.
They are plenty other fraudsters, pollsters, fund managers who should be paying more. Some of the banks have paid major fines for corruption. Some of them have been barred or jailed for corruption. Enough to act as a deterrent. Even major organisation Facebook, Amazon, Costa are being held to account by EU new tax evasion Laws being introduced. Some have paid massive fines. Zuckerman being held to account in the US. Political commissions. Data protection accusations. Illegal activity. Murdoch cronies investigated and jailed.
Swinson/LibDems are such an embarrassment. It is just unbelievable. They are such charlatans. Promoted way beyond their capabilities. A disaster. The unionist parties imbeciles. Clogging up Holyrood. Lining their pockets on other people’s misery. Totally impossible. They are killing people, They just do not care at all.
If the Liar-Fantasist-Hulk, ‘Boris’ Johnson, wants to build a bridge across the Irish Sea, then he could do Glasgow a favour, by building an ‘astrodome’ enclosing Glasgow Green in its entirety.
Then at least we could have a ‘Proms in the Park’ free from strong winds and driving rain, as it was for much of Saturday’s otherwise fantastic show.
Ps. It is a tragedy of a kind, that the enormous amount of talent in the BBC is tainted with its propaganda function. A bit like an outstanding entertainer who is also a serial paedophile.
Sandy says:
16 September, 2019 at 1:53 am
OT
Sorry to be off topic but maybe some WoSer can help.
In England, the queen of England is above the law. What is the position of the queen of Scots, her being chosen by Sovereign Scots, with regard to her breaking Scots law while resident in Scotland.
Sandy the Queen cannot be charged with any criminal offences/crimes in Scotland. Don’t know about civil law (although I suspect any civil law wold really be action against the crown estate, and therefore very actionable). The Crown (but not her hubby or children) is exempt. Which is not to say she could not (in theory) be sacked under Scottish law, but that’s a big hypothetical.
@ Sandy 0153 am
Whilst not directly addressing your point the attached shows that Scotland treats her differently. Certainly with regard to Heraldry.
https://twitter.com/FlikeNoir/status/1173124785850785792?s=20
The Jo Swinson position is important for how Scotland proceeds.
It highlights the danger of conflating GE votes with referendum votes. Standing on a platform of a single issue does not mean people automatically vote for you based on that single issue if there are other parties with a similar stance.
She is posturing to make her party stand out as the most extreme anti-Brexit party in the same way Ruth Davidson modelled the ScotTories as the most anti-Independence party. In fact it is straight out of the RD playbook.
This is why a referendum is needed in addition to narrow it down and the SNP position of using a GE and Holyrood mandate to facilitate a second referendum has to be amplified.
Swinson needs to be held to account on this not just for the hypocrisy wrt Scotland but also for how she could possibly overturn a clear vote for Brexit using a GE.
I wonder if Bojo is going to go to the EU and Eire and get a deal that puts a time limit on a NI only backstop with the sweetner for Eire being that prior to the backstop time limit ending there must be a reunification poll?
He could probably present it as allowing a democratic exit from the backstop and allowing the people of NI to choose if they would prefer the return of a hard border or not.
DUP would hate it but they are now a sideshow. ERG would get on board as it gets their Canada style Brexit on the go. Enough Labour MP’s would go for it just to be shown to avoid No deal and to get Brexit done.
Nice to hear last night radio 5 Stephen Nolan skewering Lucy Harris from the Brexit Party. Asked her some basic Q’s
She couldn’t tell him
1. What would happen the day after Brexit to UK citizens in
Europe
re: reciprocal health care status (There wont be any)
2. How much food is imported to the UK as a % (>30%)
3. Which foods were most vulnerable to supply (fruit and veg)
4. UK citizens receiving Gov pensions if living in Europe.
(they will still get it)
She claimed she was being patronised and it was unfair to ask ‘technical’ questions. BBC biased etc etc. Quite took the huff!
She really didn’t know anything, all bluff and bluster and Nolan was excellent ‘last night’ in calling her out.
She was unrepentant! 🙁
The LibDems plan to cancel Brexit when they come to power.
I wonder what the English Greens plan to do when they come to power?
Equally relevant!
@galamcennalath
Exactly – but the fact that as a position it is being discussed and defended shows how fraught with danger that route leads.
So Bojo & cohorts go for an informal lunch with Juncker &co. ( French? Snails & Scottish? Smoked salmon apparently on menu . Not sure about any Bojo “ humble pie”?). The propaganda state controlled puppets now “ foaming at the mouth” about “ landing zones” and “ imminent breakthroughs” . Would appear to me to be a blatant attempt to “ prop up BJ in his “ context as “ British”? Prime minister ahead of the imminent Supreme Court hearing . The propagandists are actually “ saying” surely our “ elected” ? Prime Minister cannot be found to be “ guilty” as charged by a “ Scots court” ? If so who would then conduct these critical and imminent “ deal discussions” .
Of course if he is “ let off the hook” then the “imminent deal” could just have been “ a false dawn” ?
Statement by the European Commission following the working lunch between President Jean-Claude Juncker and Prime Minister Boris Johnson
https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-5579_en.htm
galamcennalath says:
16 September, 2019 at 1:05 pm
The LibDems plan to cancel Brexit when they come to power.
I wonder what the English Greens plan to do when they come to power?
Equally relevant!
Listening to LBC wrestling with the Lib Dems bypassing democracy to Revoke Article 50, and together with them slaughtering Corbyn, the “anti-Brexit” alliance seems holed below the water.
I can’t help thinking if Scotland had revoked, or even secured confirmation it could revoke Article 50 unilaterally, then the anti-Brexit momentum would have the power of revoking Article 50 at least in part, I also think it would oblige the EU to reconsider the withdrawal Agreement; it would have to, to exclude Scotland, and the wider UK anti Brexit initiative could sidestep criticism for being anti democracy.
Obviously, Scotland revoking Article 50 unilaterally would change the Brexit landscape, but couldn’t properly be labelled anti-democratic. Scotland could yet give the Lib Dems and Labour south of the Border a big step up in their efforts to avoid Brexit, but at the same time, pioneer a new way for Scotland to definitely avoid Brexit .
Bill Hume
Highland Cathedral would make a great national anthem, listen to Andre Rieu version on youtube.
Re the Cherry case
You can read the written argument for the Supreme Court in the prorogation case here.
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1173575043030355968
Hi Ken500
We disagree
Moving on
All the best to you
Roll on Scottish independence then we can discuss ( and possibly disagree ) about how best to be an independent country
What will we do first to make our make as an independent Scotland ? I wonder
It will be so exciting , can’t wait
Bye
Johnson continues to blame “Johnny Foreigner” for the Britnat disaster. “Johnny Foreigner” includes Scots of course.
OTish
https://archive.is/GDfWN
Although this refers only to “snap” elections, it is an interesting admission of inability to perform their allotted tasks.
What will we do first to make our make as an independent Scotland ? I wonder
—————
we could abolish titles like lord, duke etc……… it wont cost us a penny
Breeks says:
16 September, 2019 at 1:31 pm
“Obviously, Scotland revoking Article 50 unilaterally would change the Brexit landscape, but couldn’t properly be labelled anti-democratic”
I think you are wrong, Breeks. I think it would be highly undemocratic. We have been down this road already before a couple of times, Breeks.
Why would it undemocratic? Because Scotland never triggered A50, never gave consent for it so it cannot revoke its triggering.
Attempting to unilaterally revoke A50 would be undemocratic because it would be like accepting by the back door that A50 was triggered on Scotland’s behalf and that is something we should refuse to accept with all what we got.
The real option here would be to drag the UK (English?) gov to the ECJ and demand that A50 is revoked because it was triggered unconstitutionally without the consent of Scotland. England MPs do not have mandate or consent from Scotland to speak on their behalf or to trigger A50.
In line with the A50 wording itself, if the case is won in the ECJ, that would immediately declare the triggering of A50 void. Then, if the Kingdom of England are so desperate for Brexit, they can go ahead and dissolve the UK and then leave the EU whenever they want.
Scotland never voted for Brexit, never asked for it and never gave consent for it. Scotland is not the property of the Kingdom of England and England MPs do not represent us, do not speak on our behalf and do not have our mandate to act on our behalf. Brexit is therefore, from where I am standing, unconstitutional.
“ propaganda disaster “for BJ as he fails to speak at conference after meeting with Luxembourg P M . He doesn’t hold back regards his criticism of the U.K. P.M.
Boris the Hulk is off in a sulk, incredible.
https://twitter.com/euronews/status/1173601450586492928?s=20
Robert Peffers @ 07:16,
PacMan @ 20:45 (15.Sep),
“Oh! For heaven’s sake” – this starts with a complete failure of comprehension then launches into the usual hoary old file dump which is a complete non-sequitur to the issue, as is usually the case. =sigh=
PacMan is perfectly correct, it does signal a significant shift in the EU’s attitude to Scotland, the very contrary of what you assert with no foundation whatever. What Van Rumpuy is in effect saying is that once the UK is no longer a member state of the EU (which it currently and indisputably is), the EU will no longer be inclined to defer to London’s point of view regarding us. It will treat us as it finds us.
What more could we possibly ask? No more negative “Barroso”-style interventions. Very much the contrary, Scotland is likely to see far more direct support from EU institutions and leaders. This is an important step forward. How could it be otherwise? Duh.
A friendly welcome in Luxembourg for the Incredible Sulk….
Wonder if the Biased Broadcasting Creeps will turn down the volume?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/sep/16/boris-johnson-booed-on-arrival-at-meeting-with-luxembourg-pm-video
@ Hamish 100
‘ whether you disagree or not, its a fact.
What fact is a fact.
hackalumpoff @ 15:34,
I watched the EuroNews coverage of a statement by Bettel, the Luxembourg PM, afterwards, and it was as scathing a commentary on the EURef and the UKGov as I’ve ever heard from a EU leader. (He was getting cheers from a bunch of UK [!] protesters gathered nearby.)
Jings!
EU not taking anymore shit tells a few home truths and points the finger directly at the leaders of all the UK Brexit parties. 🙂
No Boris to respond, skulked off in the huff!
Oh! A chastened Boris mutters an incoherent reply on big Auntie tv. 🙂 What a plonker.
Robert Peffers i know you are lurking, in the past you on banged on about that if you have a dispute within the SNP, take it to the branch , debate it at conference etc, can i have your opinion in the attached they wont even debate motions supported by the deputy pm?
I got my delegate pass for Aberdeen this morning, however seriously thinking whats the point in spending a fortune to travel from Arran all the way to Aberdeen when the debate is controlled by a leadership that is getting more snd more out of touch with its members.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17904137.bid-indyref2-plan-b-debated-snp-conference-looks-doomed/
me @ 15:39,
Oh, and I should add that a lot of the credit for this significant change in attitude of the EU (besides the cringingly inept and arrogant attitude of the UKGov on the negative side) is due to the states(wo)manship of Nicola Sturgeon, the only adult in the UK room.
Maria F @ 2.50pm
Even though I see things similarly to you on this matter:
In the eyes of the UK and EU, the UK is the member state of the EU (and Scotland is only a region of the UK). The UK has a representative democracy (MPs), not direct power of the people (The EU-Ref was advisory).
The people are represented by MPs at UK Parliament.
UK Parliament is sovereign and voted to trigger Article 50.
Done deal.
NEVER at any point did the SNP go to the EU challenging the constitutional legitimacy of UK Parliament’s Article 50 vote. Never at any point did the SNP legally challenge Article 50 on sovereignty. ( Only on Sewel Convention).
How no?
You would need to ask Ms Cherry, the FM and Lord Advocate. I’m no gonnae speculate.
Lenny Hartley
People like Peter A Bell point out that it’s no so much the Plan B that’s the issue.
It’s that Plan A is garbage. Being based on Indyref via s30 reliant on a co-operative, honourable UK Government / UK state.
This is no 2011 with Mr Cameron at Number 10 and indy support at c.25%. There will be no Edinburgh Agreement. No deal that both sides will act honourably and respect the decision.
The UK and Scotland has changed immeasurably since then. Unfortunately, SNP policy and the FM’s mindset has not.
Keep the flower of Scotland as our anthem those who want to change it are trying to make us forget our past and the unjustness that was put upon us and replace it with some less powerful anthem well why should we ??? We can forgive but we should not forget l meanit is on a par with not teaching Scottish history
To get back to the electoral registration forms, it has my name printed already and NATIONALITY as British.
My question is,”is this document legal”?
My understanding is that Britain is NOT a nation. Would the Scottish Supreme Court find in my favour and throw the whole damned lot out?
Colin Alexander says:
16 September, 2019 at 4:40 pm
Maria F @ 2.50pm
Even though I see things similarly to you on this matter:
In the eyes of the UK and EU, the UK is the member state of the EU (and Scotland is only a region of the UK). The UK has a representative democracy (MPs), not direct power of the people (The EU-Ref was advisory).
The people are represented by MPs at UK Parliament.
UK Parliament is sovereign and voted to trigger Article 50.
Done deal.
Agreed, more or less. They worry too, is that when you don’t defend yourself against assault or injustice, eventually you will lose the power to defend yourself, because events will transpire that cannot be undone and whether or not you could have defended yourself is a moot point.
I don’t know whether Scotland is in that position yet, maybe not, but I am perplexed by the strategy. If we are a constitutionally sovereign nation, we need to actively defend our status, and do it like we mean it.
Little Luxembourg there telling the UK what and what not to do says a person on BBC radio 5.
Illusions of grandeur he says! I think he meant Luxembourg 🙂
So BoJo isn’t Pally du Luxembourg.
Sad little man.
Blair Paterson @ 16:59,
“Keep”? I didn’t realise we had chosen anything. Was I away at the time?
Besides which, an anthem with an enormous chip on the shoulder is hardly an inspiring choice for the forward-looking country we (mostly) aspire to be.
Compare with the words of “Freedom come a’ ye” and weep.
For anyone who missed the press conf
https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/15/boris-johnson-channeling-the-incredible-hulk-defiant-on-october-31-brexit
Luxembourg: Not too wee to tell Johnson to piss off.
Xavier Bettel has said this before.
Months ago when Theresa May was meeting the EU, I think it was Channel 4 spontaneously interviewing leaders walking into the meeting, and Bettel was asked some pointed question about the Withdrawal Agreement or something. He was very polite and accommodating, but when pressed about EU ‘intransigence’, he stressed that Brexit was all the UK’s idea, not the EU.
It didn’t make the make the headlines, much, because the UK media was in full on denial mode, and didn’t want to listen, but neither Bettel nor the EU have altered their position or hardened their stance.
Blair Patterson @ 16.59
Flower of Scotland our National Anthem????
Says who? A crowd of sports fans that the Establishment humour!
And I for one want our choice of National Anthem to be something that defines Scotland.
England shouldn’t be in there.
Nae battles,Kings or bloody tombs.
My personal favourite is
Auld Lang Syne…..
It’s almost as old as GSTQ and is just as well known,arguably even better known in fact!
Most people can only name 4 or 5 national anthems never mind sing a verse of them. Yet Auld Lang Syne is already known and sung the world over. Internationally it would instantly be recognised as Scotland’s.
It’s author is definitely Scottish and it’s word’s are of friendship and kindness.
New Year celebrations the world over have shown it to be a great stadium song…..
You could almost say of it….
We gave it to the world to keep and to sing for all the time we were in the Union.But now we’re free we’re bringing it back hame!!!!
Jist sayin….. 🙂
@ Liz g.
Gets my vote.
Listened recently to a concert in Germany, standing ovation, sung in Scots and German.
Banned?
Liz.g
Auld Lang syne for me too what a great Scottish song perfect as a national anthem
RE: national anthem.
“Flower Of Scotland” became an unofficial national anthem from the grassroots up. I was playing The Corries 1974 single from the late 70s onwards. Over the years, people were able to sing along with it.
However, I don’t think that it is neccessarily “bad” for a national anthem to look back over its shoulder.
I have become rather fan of “Marche Des Soldats De Robert Bruce” (March Of The Soldiers Of Robert Bruce), since somebody stuck a link on WOS, late 2014.
This is known all over Europe as a French miltary tune but is based on a tune called “Hey Tuttie Tatie”, alleged to have been played by the Scots at Bannockburn. It is said that the French Scots Guards played the tune as they went into Orleans with Joan Of Arc – and that’s why the French took to it. Burns based “Scots Wha Hae” on the tune of “Hey Tuttie Tatie”.
You can hear a rather good version at this link. Have a tissue to dry your eyes as the pipes start…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WulAWn_N_O0
Here’s some background info for yooz…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Tuttie_Tatie
Here’s an extract from the next link:-
“The Relief of Orléans
Joan was led into the besieged city of Orléans on April 28th, 1429, to the celebratory skirl of the Scottish pipes. The tune played for her was “Hey Tuttie Taiti”. The same tune that had marched Robert the Bruce into battle at Bannockburn a century before. The same tune that Robert Burns would set to his poem “Scots Wha Hae” centuries later.
Her escort consisted of 60 Scottish men-at-arms and 70 Scottish archers led by Sir Patrick Ogilvy of Auchterhouse, hereditary sheriff of Angus. And her standard, depicting God as King of Heaven, was made a few months previous by Hamish Powers, a Scotsman living in the city of Tours.
There to welcome her was the bishop of the city. And, yes, he was a Scotsman too. John Carmichael was his name although he was known to his French flock as Bishop Jean de St Michael. A priest and a native of Lanarkshire, Carmichael was amongst the victors at Baugé and the survivors at Verneuil. Indeed, one of his first acts upon becoming bishop was to institute a Messe Ecossais for the souls of the Scottish dead. That pious custom continues to this day.
“I think the part of the Scots is really underestimated and underappreciated” says Ben Kennedy, a Kentucky based military historian and keen student of all things connected with St Joan. He estimates that Scottish soldiers would have made up about a quarter of St Joan’s army sent to relieve Orléans.”
http://www.maidofheaven.com/joanofarc_scots_guards.asp
Golfnut says:
16 September, 2019 at 7:42 am
“I believe the Queen reneged on her Constitutional duty…”
Yep, old Bojo missed a trick there – He could have…
…Told her to abdicate her Scottish crown in favour of her grandson, then prorogue the parliament while she was still wearing her English crown.
The monarch being above the law of England, can do that, the only way she could be coerced into undoing it would be by revolution.
The Supreme court may back me up on that point tomorrow[it was her, not Johnson who prorogued parliament].
At a stroke:
He would have removed any justification the SNP had for opposing Brexit for England.
Solved the Irish backstop problem.
With Scotland now remaining in the EU, being given Dev-Max by default and having an independent monarchy for the first time in 400 years, he would have stalled moves towards proper political independence for a while.
And saved his own miserable political butt.
We sure dodged a bullet there!
Briandoonthetoon @ 7.50
Tis a great song indeed Brian but just like FOS it’s about battles and kings and the military …..
I’d rather have none of that for Scotland… Just something that says friendship and something undeniably Scottish!
With a big dolop of international recognition… 🙂
Only Burns’ lyrics, Liz G.
When we become independent, a competition to compose new lyrics could be held. As you type, “Tis a great song indeed”.
Damage limitation all evening on the “ propaganda channels” as regards the “ Luxembourg fiasco” . However, is the “ writing now on the wall” for the Johnson premiership ? The “Supreme “ Court will decide . It would appear that the “ vote” from Luxembourg is “ Nul points” for “ Royaume – uni “
“ Terry Callaghan ( and Liz) @ 0722 pm “, it’s Auld Lang Syne for me as well , recognised instantly throughout the world . I give u two versions on u tube which shows the true international context of this song.
(1) J- Hae Park st the Yon sia central baptist church .
and (2) Spanish choir directed by Andres Salado narrator Juan Carlos Arnanz .
My preference is for the melody to be played at more slowly with the violin . ( more classical and stately)
Piece de resistance!
Thanks for the share and compliment @Capella – just to let the interested know that I’m looking to publish the Treaty of Union information, found here https://randomscottishhistory.com/newspaper-articles-and-letters-relating-to-the-treaty-of-union/, across as many formats as poosible.
To that end I’ve done set up a thing – https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/treaty-of-union-articles
Thanks to everyone who’s supported this endeavour.
So we did the publishing thing & here it is fully illustrated by our own artist, and cover artist for this month’s iScot Magazin, 5th Anniversary edition, Alex ??
Paperback version –
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Treaty-Union-Articles-Jenny-Eeles/dp/1916258018/
Ofc if, like myself when it comes to contemporary prints, ye prefer a Kindle version, grab your’s here –
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B081DVKNLJ/
There are links throughout to take you to the associated webpages ?
?????????