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Wings Over Scotland


Yeah, that ought to do it

Posted on May 30, 2016 by

We’re a bit behind, but we only just saw this.

toady

Suddenly a 70% Remain vote in Scotland looks like a conservative estimate.

eubotham

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  1. 30 05 16 22:56

    Yeah, that ought to do it | speymouth

244 to “Yeah, that ought to do it”

  1. bobajock says:

    I want to live there …

  2. R-type Grunt says:

    I read that this photo was taken during the 2014 World Cup.

  3. David Mills says:

    Nominative dertermisum in action.

  4. heedtracker says:

    Its my Slovene girlfriend’s house

    https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins

  5. jdman says:

    So what?
    English people flying English flags,
    better that than the butchers apron.

  6. Anne DONOHOE says:

    @jdman – Exactly. But perhaps you should point that out to Toby Young?

  7. Janet says:

    Nothing wrong with the English flag. Only the stripy butcher’s apron thingy.

    And yes, I’ll be voting REMAIN, not because of a possible indyref but because it’s the right thing to do. Worker’s rights in a LEAVE scenario? Boris wouldn’t stand for it!

  8. handclapping says:

    A gated community in England? That’ll be 10 Downing Street then.

  9. Greg Drysdale says:

    jdman
    It’s not that they’re flying England flags, you’ve missed the point of the post. But I agree with you about the apron!

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I read that this photo was taken during the 2014 World Cup.”

    So what?

  11. Malky says:

    Fingers crossed.

  12. Grouse Beater says:

    A gated community? What else?

    (Like JD at 9.07, I’ve no objection. It’s the flag of St George, England’s patron Saint. An earlier photo of people carrying Union Jacks and Christian crucifixes repelled.)

  13. handclapping says:

    an EU referendum event? I thought a Test Match against Ceylon would be at least a British if not an English event.

  14. Simon Curran says:

    So only England could leave the UK,be interesting to see how that one pans out.

  15. Grouse Beater says:

    “England should be England” – another for the list: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY

  16. Dave Robb says:

    o/t – Predictable hypocrisy from the “Home Office” (where “THEY” are) regarding the Brain family. What a bunch of sick bastards!

  17. Robert Peffers says:

    @jdman says: 30 May, 2016 at 9:07 pm:

    “So what?
    English people flying English flags,
    better that than the butchers apron.”

    I’ll tell you what!

    The point you seem to miss is that those flags are being used to represent THE WHOLE UNITED KINGDOM.

    I have no problem if English people want to be England but that guy is referring to the UNITED KINGDOM. referendum to leave or stay in the EU. England doesn’t get the choice of leaving or staying in the EU but the United Kingdom does.

    That arrogant bastard is saying that no one but the English are of any importance.

  18. Effijy says:

    England is the HQ of Britain.
    Britain is the pseudonym for England’s colonies at their
    borders.

    These commentators are all the same, I vividly recall Andy and Jamie Murray, from the Scottish Colony, winning “GB’s”
    place in the Davis Cup final, Sue Barker was over joyed at the prospect of, and I quote “England appearance in the final”

  19. heedtracker says:

    Botham says look at what’s going on in the EU, if you weren’t in it would you want to join. But if he means the refugee crisis and he probably does, it was England and the USA that created this mass of people fleeing for their lives to Europe.

    Maybe he means the fiscal crisis of countries like Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Spain but who exactly lent them the so much money in the first place? I don’t know but its likely it was the City of London spivs at it.

  20. T.roz says:

    If this catches on, there won’t be a single UJ flag to be seen at Ibrox.

  21. Iain More says:

    I choked on my tea when I seen that above. The whole idea of England voting for its Indy makes me smile.

    What nuthouse is that?

  22. Tinto Chiel says:

    So, it’s official: it’s all about England. How refreshing!

    Toby might be a talentless hack but he’s a lovely Establishment boy who knows how to suck up to his public school betters.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world…..

  23. Thepnr says:

    The decision will likely be decided solely by the English vote, I’m just hoping that this time our vote matters and we keep them in when they voted out.

    Man, that would be a poke in the eye with a sharp stick for the Little Englanders above.

  24. Gavin Alexander says:

    Does he not realise that England has not been just England for 309 years?

    Sadly no, because like many others, he thinks that the UK is “England”.

    This is England’s opportunity to make a bid for freedom. I hope they take it.

  25. Richardinho says:

    I think the point is that a good reason in Scotland for voting to remain in Europe is that the EU provides some checks on the Westminster government, or at least appears to.
    Living in England, I’m still waiting to see the polls on the eve of the election before deciding how to vote. I’m hoping for a very slender Remain victory as a result of Scottish votes!

  26. Rock says:

    Strong Appartheid supporter Botham.

    Let them vote Leave, and then we vote Leave.

    Whether you like the EU or not, supporters of independence should vote Remain in Scotland, but vote Leave if they live in England.

  27. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Toby Young makes a living off being a tit, and expects to be taken seriously.

    Here’s he is, bigging-up the whole Clean For The Queen nonsense. He did likewise on Radio North Britain, can’t remember if it was Kaye or Beattie’s show, telling a grateful nation how he likes picking up pieces of discarded crap in his own street and even chins people if he sees them dropping stuff.

    No he fucking doesn’t – he’s a bawbag and a liar, and we’ll see a lot more of his ilk in the next few weeks. Next we’ll have Edwina Currie on why she wants out of Europe because they’re planning to change the shape of eggs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOozv-zOyoI

  28. Clootie says:

    The right wing drive is behind Brexit to get rid of European controls which ensure Human rights in particular and workers rights in general. A few people will make a great deal of money from Brexit but they will mostly live around London and the South of England. The general population will suffer greatly due to the loss of European legal protection and oversight.

    Is the European experiment going well? Probably a lot more good than bad and a lot of changes needed to restore balance ( Greece was not a good example and neither is the lack of a unified policy on Syria).

    The choice for me is simple. I look at the right wing neoliberals who support Brexit and accept that it is impossible for me to align with those people for one second. Therefore no matter the failings of the EU I will vote Remain because a Right Wing UK following a Brexit win is an obscene option.

  29. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “England doesn’t get the choice of leaving or staying in the EU but the United Kingdom does.”

    How can that be possible?

    According to you the United Kingdom is neither a “country” nor a “nation”.

    How can something which is neither a “country” nor a “nation” have the choice of leaving or staying in the EU?

  30. Swiss Perspective says:

    Just received my postal vote today.

    I know what to do with it.

  31. louis.b.argyll says:

    It’s clearly a shrine to St George..

    ..and bad architecture. Apologies to Le Corbusier et al.

    An inner-city Jerusalem.

    Motto madness.

    Amateur nationalists- confused about the very meaning of identity, confused about the difference between image and self image.

    Its not the flag, stupid. Its the motive of the person waving it.

  32. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian Brotherhood: “He’s a bawbag and a liar”

    Great word ‘bawbag’ – perfect title for a novel about a fire breathing rebel Jock who gets elected as a Labour MP, and then sells his country short for an earldom, and a BBC TV series presenting a history of Scotland as written by Sir David Starkey. Finally takes the English shilling to expose a powerful colleague has an account in Panama. Lots of ingénue Labour activists laid end-to-end in his search for personal gratification.

    THE BAWBAG
    a novel
    by
    Ian Brotherhood

    Now a major television series starring Kevin Stacey.

    (It’s always a ‘major’ series. No one advertises a minor series.)

  33. Money laundering in London is now probably the biggest business in the UK. Certainly London is the centre of World money laundering.
    Leaving the EU is absurd; but makes sense for London. London does not want Brussels putting strings of legality on its laundering.

  34. Hamish100 says:

    Strange just saw Botham on the television
    The England……. Bit was missing. Maybe we will get a voice over saying Britain or Uk instead. In fairness Botham does mean England

  35. Thepnr says:

    @Rock

    According to you the United Kingdom is neither a “country” nor a “nation”.

    That is correct, the UK is a member state according to Wiki:

    The European Union (EU) comprises 28 member states. Each member state is party to the founding treaties of the union and thereby subject to the privileges and obligations of membership.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union

    As far as the EU itself is concerned their website describes the UK as:

    The United Kingdom (UK) consists of England, Wales, Scotland (which collectively make up Great Britain) and Northern Ireland.

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/member-countries/unitedkingdom/index_en.htm

  36. Orri says:

    Personally,I didn’t smile. Whether they’re a confusion between the UK or not is irrelevant. The message to me is vote Remain. Not that it matters but I don’t give a fuck about that picture.

  37. Big Jock says:

    Yes and think what England will have in store for Scotland. If they do vote to leave and become a backwater dragging us down with them.

  38. Ken500 says:

    They lost

  39. defo says:

    Shilling for England ?

    From wiki.

    “Young was educated at Creighton School (now Fortismere School), Muswell Hill and King Edward VI Community College, Totnes. He left school at 16 with one Grade C GCE O-Level in English Literature and did menial jobs under a Government Workfare programme. He then retook his O-Levels and went to the Sixth Form of William Ellis School, Highgate, leaving with two Bs and a C at A-Level and managing to obtain a place at Brasenose College, Oxford. Young claims he was sent an acceptance letter by mistake. He had been given a conditional offer of three Bs under a scheme to give access to comprehensive pupils.[7][8][9]

    He was awarded a First in Philosophy, Politics and Economics and, after a six-month period as a news trainee at The Times, became a Fulbright Scholar at Harvard University where he was a Teaching Fellow in the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. This was followed by a two-year period at Trinity College, Cambridge where he worked as a teaching assistant in the Social and Political Sciences Faculty and carried out research for a doctorate that he did not complete.[10] He is currently a Visiting Fellow at the University of Buckingham and a Commissioner of the UK Fulbright Commission.”

    One C GCE in English Literature, to Vanity fair and beyond !

    At least this pet of the establishment doesn’t have enough brass neck to use his ‘right honorable’ title.

  40. galamcennalath says:

    “England should be England”

    Sounds fair enough, after all, Scotland should be allowed to be Scotland.

    There’s just a wee issue with a Union to be dissolved, and I don’t mean the European one.

  41. Marie Clark says:

    Oh well, it’s nice to see that Scotland doesn’t matter eh.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but when I look at what it might be like if brexit wins, it sure scares the hell out of me.

    Like others, at one time I would have voted remain without any hesitation. Then Greece happened, and I didn’t care for that sort of treatment one little bit. I must admit I’ve been a don’t know, ( which is not like me at all) for a wee while. The fight in the tory party has not engaged me in any way.

    I hate to find myself on the side of Cameron, and I’m pleased that a lot of people in the tory party are greatly upset at the way he has conducted remain project fear. Funny that, it didn’t seem to bother any of them when he did it to Scotland

    But, hey ho, such is life. I reckon I have to vote remain for the sake of Scotland. At least the EU gives us some protection from the vile right wing arseholes of the tories. Boris for PM. Jeez oh, that’s the stuff of nightmares.

    Mind you, it’ll be mightily entertaining if England votes leave, and Scotland keeps them in. They’ll be queuing up to throw us out of their precious union.

  42. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Grouse Beater –

    🙂

    Soo-perb.

    Have started Chapter One.

    ‘It was a stormy, humid night, and Gordon was feeling moister than usual…’

  43. Mark says:

    “Rock says:
    30 May, 2016 at 9:54 pm
    Robert Peffers,

    “England doesn’t get the choice of leaving or staying in the EU but the United Kingdom does.”

    How can that be possible?

    According to you the United Kingdom is neither a “country” nor a “nation”.

    How can something which is neither a “country” nor a “nation” have the choice of leaving or staying in the EU?”

    The UK is a state and also a member state of the EU. It’s not that bloody complicated, or is it?

  44. Joannie says:

    Doesn’t George Galloway support Brexit?

  45. galamcennalath says:

    This all just shows the dangers of too much immigration. These isles have never been the same since we let the Angles & Saxons settle. 🙂

  46. Legerwood says:

    Postal voting problems emerging. Story in the Telegraph online. Apparently a document sent out by the Electoral Commission explaining how touse your postal ballot has been seen as biased and will have to be withdrawn.

    Some seem to think it will throw doubt on the postal vote.

  47. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘England should be England’

    Does anyone know what he’s on about? Does he?

    Botham has become his Spitting Image. They had a good take on what it means to be ‘English’ –

    ‘Last Night At The Yobs’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPRKpZH6hs

  48. Capella says:

    There’ll always be an England over on youtube. Comments are a wonderful compilation of anti EU sentiment.

    Red, white and blue,
    What does it mean to you?
    Surely you’re proud, shout it aloud,
    “Britons awake!”

    It’s going to be a long run-up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM

  49. heedtracker says:

    More of the same at the Heil. Actually this is as creepy as you’d expect from that awful crew. We are governed by toryboy London, so right enough Scotland’s destiny is still in their hands.

    http://archive.is/hOFcl

    Johnny Foreigner might well be coming to rape you but Mr Cameron will save you all

    “Mr Cameron doesn’t need to sit back and wait for the dagger to plunge, front or back. He put his name to the much-mocked ‘Vow’ during Scotland’s independence referendum, which has since proved to be a strategic masterstroke – the devolution of income tax powers to Holyrood looks likely to transform Scottish politics for the better and pull the rug from under the SNP.

    The Prime Minister should (quickly, now) be working up something similar for the aftermath of the EU referendum, behind which he can build a coalition of moderate Brexiteers and Remainers”

  50. galamcennalath says:

    @Legerwood

    Postal voting …

    http://archive.is/GxOoD

  51. They don`t have to pretend any more,

    they don`t have to tell us how much they `love us jocks`,

    they no longer have to say Scotland matters,

    they can do anything say anything and we have to put up with it,

    the Referendum was a double edge sword,Independence or Eradication,

    Toby does not care if he insulted Scotland,we have ceased to matter.

  52. Rock says:

    Mark,

    “The UK is a state and also a member state of the EU. It’s not that bloody complicated, or is it?”

    No, it isn’t to normal people.

    Only to Robert Peffers who repeatedly claims that the UK is not a state.

  53. Chic McGregor says:

    @Clootie
    “Therefore no matter the failings of the EU I will vote Remain because a Right Wing UK following a Brexit win is an obscene option.”

    Let’s be honest, the UK is already right wing, we are talking about full blown Nazi nutter right wing here.

    Honestly that visit to Russia last year really opened my eyes. The week before their annual WWII commemoration day. No preponderance of Russian flags, very few in fact, no TV ‘War’ programmes and in a country which:

    1. Was the major player in WWII with the most casualities by miles, many times the UK and American total and which inflicted the most casualties on Germany, again many times the combined UK and American total.

    2. A supposed totalitarian propaganda ridden country.

    On returning to the UK with wall to wall Union Flags and countless WWII ‘documentaries’ on TV way beyond any normal definition of national obsession, a movement to leave the ECHR and a cluster-f**k of xenophobic immigrant bashers preparing for an inglorious Brexit the contrast could not have been starker.

  54. Still Positive. says:

    Marie Clark @ 10.39.

    I think I am more terrified of a ‘Leave’ vote than I was of a ‘No’ vote as we had SG to give us some protection against the Tories.

    I see a ‘Leave’ vote as taking away Human Rights and workers’ rights including paid holidays, maternity/paternity rights, working time directives and many more. All those things which are not devolved to SG.

    For that reason I am voting to remain as I did in 1975.

    I also think/hope it may be Scotland and Northern Ireland, and possibly Wales who swing a ‘Remain’ while England vote ‘Leave’.

    That would be something to behold!

  55. defo says:

    Marie Clark says:

    “I hate to find myself on the side of Cameron…”

    Your not. He just happens to be on the same side as you, but with differing motivational factors.
    What’s defo is, your welfare is not one of his.

  56. defo says:

    is, is … 🙂

  57. Proud Cybernat says:

    It’s what I’ve been saying. Listen up ProudScotButs – England is England and the English are English. Britain/British applies ONLY to those of us in the Celtic Fringe. It’s a sop to us, make us feel that we’re part of the big gang. Except the big gang doesn’t see itself as British. But they laugh at us (nay, they laugh at the ProudScotButBrits) when we call ourselves British as though we’re all the same, all equal.

    We’re not.

  58. Ian Brotherhood says:

    *Chapter Three*

    Toby answered the door. It was after midnight, and he was bone-weary after spending the day picking up pieces of litter discarded by selfish Londoners he could see from his window who disrupted his work on the great English novel he was almost near getting to the middle of.

    The door creaked menacingly as he pulled it open, and then he was surprised to see a very tall policeman who was nonchalantly holding a notebook and one of those wee pencils you normally get in Ladbrokes.

    ‘Evening all’ said the officer, ‘I have been sent here to take down your particulars.’

    Toby shifted uneasily in his M&S boxers.

    ‘It’s not terribly convenient, but if you chase me upstairs I’ll show you my qualifications.’

    The officer bounded across the threshold, and then the door menacingly creaked all the way closed by itself.

    It was just the start of a long night for everyone, and Toby would understandably never be the same again.

    *End Chapter Three*

  59. carjamtic says:

    GB @ 10:06
    IB @ 10:40

    Stop it you two,I huvny LOL,since Barry Ferguson and Allan McGregor…..devalued themselves in public 🙂

  60. Barbara McKenzie says:

    I can appreciate your irritation / amusement at some of the crass and arrogant statements coming out from the English supporters of Brexit.

    I can also understand why you might be pleased at the leverage given the independence movement if Scotland votes to remain in the EU but the UK as a whole forces it out.

    What I can’t understand is the assumption that it would be better for Scotland to remain in the EU, for the following reasons:

    1) My understanding is that the EU is a very undemocratic organisation, with most of the power being with the Commissioners.

    2) Economically, the EU seems to be about winners and losers. Are you so sure Scotland would be a winner? Do you want to be a winner, if it’s at the expense of other countries?

    3) In terms of global affairs, EU was supposed to form a block following a foreign policy independent from the US. In fact the opposite seems to have happened – EU foreign policy is totally indivisible from that of the US. You just have to look at Syria. Recently US, UK, and France blocked a proposal to declare the extremist organisation Ahrar al Sham a terrorist organisation: Ahrar al Sham and its al Qaeda friends promptly carried out a massacre in the town of Zara’a.

    One of Alex Salmond’s arguments for independence is ‘no more immoral wars’. The EU imposes immoral sanctions on countries like Russia and Syria at the drop of a hat. Why would any decent person want to be part of that?

  61. Morgatron says:

    Im so proud to be , err. Oh well. Really grateful that someone of the stature and my fellow countryman , Beefy “roll a spliff” Hannibal does a lot for charity , fuckin git Botham had spoken up for me and this great island we call England . The mans a cock.

  62. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    You aught to serialise that in the “Wings Miscellany” monthly. Might make you famous 🙂

  63. Greannach says:

    I saw Toby Young reviewing papers on Sky news or BBC news last night. The expression on his face suggested severe constipation. I would have tweeted to suggest senna pods, but I don’t have a twitter account.

  64. heedtracker says:

    1) My understanding is that the EU is a very undemocratic organisation, with most of the power being with the Commissioners.

    Classic Brexiteer stuff but what does it actually mean?

    Also, Germany has spent over £15bn on refugees so far. How much has the UK spent?

  65. HandandShrimp says:

    Toby Young is always good for a smile.

    However, I am glad it is clear what Engexit is all about.

  66. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Toby Young, Will Self and Jon Snow, doing some blether about last year’s GE result.

    Toby gets in an awful muddle with his centre-rights and centre-lefts…can’t imagine why, considering he views Ed Miliband as ‘extreme left’. (‘…further to the left than any leader since Michael Foot’)

    NB – this is not a Spitting Image clip. These are real people, and this is a precious historical document…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-x440hpigY

  67. Legerwood says:

    galamcennalath says:
    30 May, 2016 at 11:05 pm
    @Legerwood

    “”Postal voting …

    http://archive.is/GxOoD “”

    Thank you. Never grasped the art of archiving.

  68. Kenny says:

    Barbara McKenzie says: 2) Economically, the EU seems to be about winners and losers. Are you so sure Scotland would be a winner? Do you want to be a winner, if it’s at the expense of other countries?

    Barbara, I do agree with you on this!

    On another thread discussing the various currency options open to an indy Scotland, in the distant future there would, I believe, be a very good argument for Scotland being in the euro.

    Because a Scottish currency, being a petrocurrency, would tend to appreciate. So we could play the same game as Germany, allowing the euro to ride on the back of the southern countries and so our currency would be weaker, making our exports more attractive (and Scotland is a net exporter, always will be).

    But would we in the YES movement really want to do this on the backs of the unfortunate Greeks and Portuguese? Are we Scottish “nationalists” not internationalists?

    Surely one of the benefits of having the Saltire flying at Brussels is for an indy Scotland to be a shining beacon of internationalism and solidarity with ALL in Europe — especially the weakest? What is the joy of supporting the strongest, cosying up to the ex-Goldman-Sachs bankers who run the EU, the IMF, the World Bank?

    What sort of Second Scottish Enlightenment is that? Hardly a good start for the Revived Independent Scotland! When we get indy, we need to continue where we left off in 1320 and be a leading force for good on the continent and in the world.

  69. Bill Steele says:

    Robert Peffer says, “That arrogant bastard is saying that no one but the English are of any importance.” I has been so since 1707. We don’t actually need a Butchers Apron. It’s a pretendy flag to fool the non-English nations of these islands, conquered by the English, that we are one “British” nation. The reality is that we really only need the St. George’s flag. English votes in UK general election usually decide which political party will govern us; English votes in Westminster decide which laws are passed; English votes for English Laws relegate Scottish MPs to 2nd class status; the German Queen is constantly referred to as the Queen of England when there is no such kingdom (queendom) as England – it was dissolved in 1707. The Queen’s title is and English title, not a UK title; she has an alternative title in Scotland, “Elizabeth, Queen of Scots”; since we’re not yet a republic, we Scots should use her Scottish title. Why is the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Glasgow given an English title to honour the Queen rather than use her Scottish Title, “Elizabeth, Queen of Scots Hospital? I have lived in 6 different countries on 4 continents. most people have never heard of Scotland. When People ask me which country I’m from and I reply “Scotland”, they say, “Ah you’re English”. When I explain why I am not English, they have difficulty understanding. When I explain that we are the country to the north of England, they don’t understand. To them the UK is England; this notion is promoted by the English, especially the Prime Minister, who in a speech in Russia referred to England as the greatest country of the world, and the British (in reality English) media. “All the animals in the farm are equal, but some animals are more equal that others”.

  70. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Stumbled across this 1982 clip about Militant in Labour…

    Can you guess who the reporter is before he’s revealed at the end?

    For maximum pleasure, try to avoid looking at the blurb/comments.

    It’s a Monday Night Hoot!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_c7ymmpiI

  71. Dr Jim says:

    If for one reason only to vote stay in the EU it’s this

    On Brexit once the English get their way they will proceed to rip up every right Scotland has and rape our country’s assets to the bone and smile while they’re doing what the said they would democratically do when we all voted for it as one Nation

    Even though to the best of my knowledge nowhere in the Union of the Crowns does it mention “One Fukcing Nation”

    Do we think David Cameron cares one iota whether we’re IN or OUT, I don’t think so, he’s already handed in his notice, not entirely daft eh

    For those worried about TTIP there’ll be no EU rules preventing privatising the NHS once we’re out, it’ll be a direct deal with our special relationship partners without waiting at the back of the queue

    All the fishing powers will come back to Scotland they say, Oooh! that’s good, except we don’t own the fukcing sea, remember, you can have all the powers you like, you just can’t enforce them, that power will be up to the real government of Englandhampton and the cricket eleven Pigboners

    Scotland will be in deep Doo Doo if we’re denied civilised protections from the EU It’ll all be reset to default mode for the overbearing arrogant mind numbingly stupid average English voter to Fukc us to death while they’re stroking their whippets feeding their pigeons and thinking of Engerland

    For anybody who thinks I’m racist I’ve just described half my family, and you’re damn right I am

  72. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    You wouldn’t adam-and-eve what happens in Chapter Four.

    It’s so insuperably horrendous I can’t even bring myself to write it…

    🙁

  73. Tombee says:

    Scotland was never concqoured by the English. Not even the Romans could do that. No we were sold for English gold, and that has to be repealed. The real story here is that we the Scots can never ever overcome the English majority. We get what they give us. Independence is what will change that. A sovereign Scottish people sitting at the table fighting our corner on our own behalf. St George’s flag can fly as proudly as it likes. It is not our colour. This effigy of Britain is not of our liking. Being part of the community of nations with a democratic input is. Vote ton remain. Changethe EU for the better.

  74. Returnofthemac says:

    Ian Botham,never did like the arrogant shit. He has just summed up in that comment Engerland should be Engerland why they just don’t get it. Long summer days on the village lawn the sound of leather on willow and cucumber sandwiches and not an immigrant in sight…..

  75. John Moss says:

    I’m soveriegn and I want people to serve me, not rule me.

    Stuff the United Kingdom and tuff the European Union.

    Scotland a true and independent country!

  76. Liz g says:

    Cappella @11.03
    Re …There always be an England…
    They are going to have a wee problem wi the lyrics after we leave are they no?

  77. carjamtic says:

    Ian B @ 12:11

    Now recovered from wife’s interrogation,whit’s so funny?…..whit ye laughing at ?

    Just Brilliant 😉

  78. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’ve liked this song since I first become aware of it in the 70s.

    Maybe our neighbours in England should adopt it as an unofficial anthem – their ‘Sunshine On Leith’?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3AAxXyqOzg

  79. CmonIndy says:

    Brian Doonthetoon I do like Roy Harper. I bought his album Bullinamingvase and it took me months to understand the title. Doh!

  80. defo says:

    One for the news quiz.

    “Public toilets ‘wiped out in parts of UK'”

    Some parts don’t ? 😉

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36405414

  81. jdman says:

    check out the name in red
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cjuy1IgW0AArbxF.jpg

    Why of course its this young lady here
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BaFKtxAXYaU/hqdefault.jpg
    Anyone got anything to say on the BBC’s OWN mission statement of remaining (cough) unbiased ?
    that can hardly say the didn’t know can they?

    PLEASE remember if your a Labour supporter you may not care that the BBC employs people who have a leaning towards Labour and to be fair even if you ARE a news reporter you still have a right to your PERSONAL opinion, but what they dont have a right to do is to display openly and clearly their personal bias while reporting the news when they are being paid from a license fee which all tv viewers are required BY LAW to pay under penalty of imprisonment,
    THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE
    How would any Labour support feel if Nicola Sturgeon popped up to read “the news where you are”?

  82. Helena Brown says:

    Barbara Mackenzie, there is actually a European Parliament which has the democratic right to vote on things proposed by the commissioners. Before coming up with this right wing Brexit rubbish please do your homework.

  83. Brian Fleming says:

    Swiss Perspective says:
    30 May, 2016 at 10:05 pm
    “Just received my postal vote today.

    I know what to do with it.”

    Shred it, I hope. Vote in person on the day. Harder to rig.

  84. Capella says:

    @ jdman – not for the first time!
    Remember in 2014, a few months before the Indyref vote, Radio Scotland ditched Ken MacDonald’s Sunday morning newspaper review (too impartial). They were going to replace it with a talking shop led by Kezia Dugdale. However, the outcry was too loud to ignore.

  85. One_Scot says:

    It’s funny how two years ago it was ‘Scotland please don’t go, we love you’, and now that they own us again, Scotland is irrelevant, an non entity, no longer exists.

    The disappointing thing is not so much the fact that they abuse, lie and take the pish out of us, it’s the fact that we fall for it so easily, to the detriment of all of us.

  86. heedtracker says:

    it’s the fact that we fall for it so easily, to the detriment of all of us.

    BBC r4 Today show just had Jim Naughty in Govan chatting Brexit with two of last 800 Clyde ship yard workers bemoaning lack of work. At no point does a professional liar like Naughty mention BetterTogether’s reneged promises like the RN frigate factory 2014.

  87. jdman says:

    One_Scot
    “The disappointing thing is not so much the fact that they abuse, lie and take the pish out of us, it’s the fact that we fall for it so easily, to the detriment of all of us.”

    Speak for yourself pilgrim
    I saw this coming long before the referendum, granted I along with everyone else bigged up our chances of winning but deep down I KNEW people would be conned AGAIN!
    Alex Douglas Hume “vote no for something better” the something better was Margaret Thatcher,
    some people NEVER learn!

  88. Don Mc says:

    How can we expect people south of the border to respect us when we don’t even respect ourselves enough to stand on our own two feet. Dodgy Dave didn’t hesitate to announce evel while we were still reeling from the indy ref outcome.

    My fear over brexit is that this tory government will reduce Scotland’s relevance even further and, if it comes to it, if we continue getting too uppity, we’ll find Holyrood scrapped with no external interference to prevent it. Having accepted that indy can only be achieved via referendum rather than Thatcher’s majority of indy supporting MPs, the SNP would be powerless to call a referendum and there’s nothing we would be able to do about it.

    I agree that we need a close vote on the 23rd though, with Scots votes just enough to keep England in the EU. There’s more chance of England voting to get rid of us than us voting to escape this corrupt Union. Stockholm syndrome writ large indeed.

  89. Luigi says:

    That image “flagged up” demonstrates perfectly why the union is not a union at all. English nationalism just bubbles under the surface of our glorious United Kingdom and it takes very little for it to boil over. Hold on to your seats for the next two weeks! This is something that the Proud Scot Butts refuse to recognise (IMO they are fully aware but the harsh reality is just too awful for their belief systems to contemplate, and so the self-delusion continues). What the PSBs have to accept is that the European ref (as was the Scottish one) is all about national identity.

    I have no problem with English patriotism – how could I as a supporter of the Scottish variety? However, the problem I have is that English nationalism becomes British nationalism (through sheer weight of numbers) and the other nationalities of the UK are completely swamped by the all pervading “Englishness” that dominates our lives.

    Actually, I prefer to see the George cross flying than hundreds of union flags everywhere. At least the former is a more honest representation of people’s identity. Englishness for the English is no bad thing, but when Englishgness is dressed up as Britishness and we are all expected to embrace it – that’s when the trouble starts.

  90. call me dave says:

    Well it’s a ‘no Brainer’ from the UK government then. 🙁

    Given 60 days to remain but not allowed to work even though they both have job offers.

    They also have to have £2900 untouched in a bank account for 90 days to qualify so can’t meet that criteria now.

    Funny old Westminster rules everything in their favour is against them. Disgraceful init!

  91. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 30 May, 2016 at 9:54 pm:

    “England doesn’t get the choice of leaving or staying in the EU but the United Kingdom does.”

    How can that be possible?

    According to you the United Kingdom is neither a “country” nor a “nation”.

    How can something which is neither a “country” nor a “nation” have the choice of leaving or staying in the EU?

    Because, “The United Kingdom”, is exactly as it describes itself, “a United KINGDOM. A kingdom is a Royal Realm and can be part of a country, a single country or many countries. The EU is also not a country, nor is it a kingdom. It is a political union of countries, states and kingdoms.

    The former, “British Empire”, was an, “Empire”, that is it was the royal realm on an Emperor of Empress. The monarch of Great Britain and Ireland became the Emperor or Empress of the British Empire and Lizzie II is still head of state of several countries throughout the World.

    Here’s the definition of, “Empire” :-

    empire = a noun

    “an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly especially an emperor or empress.”

    You really need to learn the true meaning of the words the various authorities use. Here’s a couple for you to think about :-

    The United Kingdom is a Royal Realm, a single political state, formed from several different countries.

    The United States of America is a single country formed from many different states.

    You seem to think that these different terms all mean the same thing – they don’t.

  92. galamcennalath says:

    Luigi says:

    “… the union is not a union at all. English nationalism just bubbles under the surface …. Proud Scot Butts refuse to recognise (IMO they are fully aware but the harsh reality is just too awful for their belief systems to contemplate, and so the self-delusion continues).”

    Very true. They are the North Brits, however there are no South Brits.

    Many genuinely aspire to become Anglicised in manner, speech and attitudes. They cover their subconscious shame by calling it ‘being British’ .

  93. cearc says:

    Call me Dave et al,

    The fundraiser for the Brains’ is at

    https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/backthebrainstostay

  94. orri says:

    @Brian Fleming

    Shredding a postal vote isn’t that great an idea as you can’t vote without it due to not being on the list at the polling station. What you need to do is contact your registration officer either to find out where your polling station is or hand it in to them.

  95. call me dave says:

    @cearc

    Thanks for the link.
    I will contribute in a few minutes but the UK government has already stymied that with their 90 day rule as they only have 60 days left officially.

    Hoping for the best outcome for them just the same.

  96. Robert Peffers says:

    @Marie Clark says: 30 May, 2016 at 10:39 pm:

    … Mind you, it’ll be mightily entertaining if England votes leave, and Scotland keeps them in. They’ll be queuing up to throw us out of their precious union.”

    Nah! Marie, they will do just what the, “Lady of the night”, did in this true incident from when I was a young apprentice travelling to Rosyth Dockyard by train long before the Forth Road Bridge was built.

    I had to leave home in North Edinburgh before 5am to get to Haymarket Station for the Dockyard train. I then had a wait at Haymarket due to the bus times. So I would skip breakfast and join other Dockyard workers in an all-night café in Morrison Street for breakfast.

    On this occasion a very large, (post WWII), NATO Fleet had been having an exercise in Scottish waters. The city was awash with foreign Jack Tars on Shore Leave. The ladies of the night were out in force, many making their fortunes.

    There were always several such, “Ladies”, having breakfast in that café before making their way home to bed. One such came, “limping”, in rather gingerly and decided to eat standing up. We all knew her and were kidding her on a bit. Now I’ll repeat her exact words when we drew attention to her rather gingerly walking plight.

    “It’s afu sair bit A’h needed the money”

    That is exactly what the Brexiters will decide to do if Scotland does keep England in the EU. There is utterly no chance they will even dream of throwing Scotland out of the UK, (which, incidentally could not happen as there are legally only two partners in the UK it legally ends if one leaves. It is legally a United Kingdom. It is not, and never has been, a single united country.
    So, no matter how sair it becomes for the English they need the money.

  97. All we need next is the Tory leave campaign wheeling out Vera Lynn singing there will always be an England.
    And no I am not that old!
    I just remember her from the old documentaries about WW2.

  98. Ken500 says:

    The EU an agreed contribution costs nothing. The payment comes back in CAP payments, Grants and shared Defence costs. (Less conflict) Good social Laws, directives, maternity leave, hours worked etc. The officials are appointed so all countries delegates can power share, for fairness. If they were elected it would be delegates for the more powerful, larger countries that would win. The EU is good for trade and protecting members interest in the rest of the world. There are 27members. 18 in the Eurozone.

    It is extremely important for Scotland to stay in the EU. Devolution and the ‘right to self determination’ are enshrined in the European Human Rights Act that Cameron wants to change.

    Devolution has made Scotland better off and Independence will increase that prospect. The UK Union is undemocratic. Scotland can be outvoted 10 to 1 in Westminster and frequently gets policies for which a majority in Scotland do not vote. Westminster is secretive and operates illegally and criminally. It buries it’s crimes under the Official Secrets Act. It makes the Law, breaks the Law and doesn’t not enforce the Law. A criminal, secretive Institution.

    Westminster controls most of Scotland taxation and spending on policies the majority in Scotland do not want. Westminster has illegally and secretly using undisclosed Accounts taken the equivalent of £Billions from Scotland leaving people in poverty. McCrone and Thatcher. Wasted and squandered vast Scottish resources. On illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.

    Osbourne has nearly destroyed the Oil sector in Scotland, with 60/80% taxes when the price had fallen 75%. It is now 40% taxation. All other industries in the UK are taxed at 20% Corp tax. More Oil & Gax is being imported putting up the balance of payments and the debt. The Tories no enterprise and high taxation. Losing Scotland £4Billion-+ a year since 2010. £24Billion. Losing thousands of jobs. Scotland would be £10Billion+ better off Independent. Poverty could be eradicated. Health and public services could be improved.

    Osbourne intending spending £20Billion a year on Hinkley Point and HS2. a total waste of money which could be better spent on public services and welfare for the vulnerable. The Tories are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people.

    The only EU financial Law that is regulated for fairness in trade is VAT – 25%? in the interest of fair trade. Otherwise there is no interference in individual members taxation but efforts are being made increasing trying to stop Multinational companies tax evading within member States. The USA Trade Agreement because of US protectionism of it’s own market. It uses patents to unfairly create a monopoly and charge what it wants. EU Trade agreements are being agreed with China, India and Brazil and other countries which protect their markets with tarriffs and restrictive practices, The EU is the nearest, largest market of 500Million people.

    The migrant crisis in Europe is caused by US/UK and French foreign policies. Interfering and bombing the Middle East for over 100 years. Killing and maining people and taking their resources. People in the Middle East were promised the vote for fighting with the Allies in the 1WW. That was reneged upon. 1913 the American Sun Oil company started up in the Middle East, 1917 The Balfour Agreement, Declaration. The Weiner period in Germany. Printing money. 1930 the Wall Street crash, the Depression. 1945 the 11WW. 26Million Russians died. 1950’s Churchill took Iran’s Oil and put the PM in jail. Reinstated the deposed Shah. M15/CIA caused unrest. Documented in Washington.

    The migrants flooded into Israel 1948, The Suez crisis, the Iraq/Iran War. The West supported and armed Iraq. The 7 day War. More Arab territories disappeared. The West support of Israel An apartheid State. US/UK France carved up the Middle East denied the Vote and illegally took all the Oil resources and caused death and misery selling arms and supporting absolute despot monarchies and apartheid States.

    The illegal Wars US/UK and France killing and maiming millions of innocent people and causing the biggest migrant crisis in Europe since 11WW. Causing depression and crisis in Europe while they refuse to take refugees. Even coming out of the EU will not solve the crisis. It will still continues. Refugees will still flee persecution caused by US/UK and France. Blair and Brown should be in jail, along with their sycophants. UK immigration Laws are not compatible with Scottish economic policy.

  99. galamcennalath says:

    For anyone who hasn’t already read it, a lot of good sense and wise words from Tommy Sheppard

    http://tommysheppardmp.scot/index.php/my-blogs/entry/let-s-change-the-terrain-and-target-open-minds

    “There are a great number of people who voted No but could be described as i-curious. It wasn’t that they would never consider the idea but the time wasn’t right. They worried that we couldn’t afford it, or that others would sabotage the endeavour. These are our audience.”

  100. Richard says:

    Better the devil you know.

  101. just to emphasise the the evil world the No voter signed us up for,

    Cancer Research UK has invested millions of its pension fund in British American Tobacco (BAT),

    the million that ordinary people give to the charity to help in the fight against Cancer is invested in the tobacco industry that is responsible for 1 in 4 Cancers,

    Cancer Research say there will be no cure for Cancer till 2050,

    Scotland needs its own Cancer Research institute.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/31/c_135401232.htm

  102. Robert Peffers says:

    @Barbara McKenzie says: 30 May, 2016 at 11:27 pm:

    ” … My understanding is that the EU is a very undemocratic organisation, with most of the power being with the Commissioners”

    That just might be because you misunderstand the relationship of the EU & the EC. The Commissioners, (the clue is in their title), are paid for Civil Servants of the European Parliament and it is the parliamentarians who are the EU parliament. Commissioners can decide nothing as they have no votes. They only administer what the parliamentarians decide. They do, though, have an advisory capacity but the parliament very often ignores what the EC advises.

    ” … Are you so sure Scotland would be a winner?”

    Yes I’m certain and the statistics bear that out. Scotland’s contributions are less than what the EU returns to Scotland. Even although, for example, The Establishment has diverted several EU grants for Scotland to English sources, The Hill Farmers subsidy springs to mind.

    … In terms of global affairs, EU was supposed to form a block following a foreign policy independent from the US.”

    Indeed, but as a part of the UK, Scotland does not get any say in anything to do with the EU. Especially since EVEL.

    ” … One of Alex Salmond’s arguments for independence is ‘no more immoral wars’. The EU imposes immoral sanctions on countries like Russia and Syria at the drop of a hat. Why would any decent person want to be part of that?”

    Oh! That’s an easy one to answer. The, “decent person”, doesn’t get much of a say in what the EVEL UK Establishment vote for at the EU parliament. The decent person wants to have a say.

    Take the example of. for example fishing quotas negotiations, no Scottish representative had any say in how the UK’s former fishing grounds were used to get a better deal for England on joining what was then the European setup.

    Since then no Scottish person has been allowed anywhere near the fishing quotas negotiations.

    My! Aren’t you the little, “Scots But”? (are you even really Scottish?). You seem rather more, “British”, to me.

  103. Naina Tal says:

    Something that I’ve been trying tae mind. Sittin here at ma brekfast. Whit ma maw ca’d a guid fry up. Eggs, bacon, sausages etc. Whit ah cannae mind is when that becam a “Fool Engerlish”. Everythin oan the telly and in places in South Britain they aye ca’it that. Jist trying tae mind when it started?

  104. Andy.D says:

    Vote Remain why? I will not be its out out out for me, why, IMMIGRATION if you guys think its ok to flood your country with Jonny Foreigner on you go I don’t. They do take our jobs I know its rife in my work place, and before you start, nice guys they are but unskilled taking Scottish jobs and MAYBE keeping wages down. We are going to lose 3 million jobs if we leave, good, maybe less people will come here, and before you say but we need them maybe so but lets get them where we need them. As for St. Georges flags good on them the Euros are coming up maybe that if not they have a right to have their voices heard just like us Indy supporters.

  105. bugsbunny says:

    This Royal Throne of Kings, this scepter’d Isle,
    This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars;
    This other Eden, demi-paradise,
    This Fortress built by Nature for herself;
    Against infection and the hands of war,
    This happy breed of men, this little world;
    This precious stone set in the silver sea,
    Which serves it in the office of a wall;
    Or as a moat defensive to a house,
    Against the envy of less happier lands;
    This blessed plot, this realm, this England.

    That’s what they might as well put down as an excuse for Brexit.

    If Brexit happens, we will get Boris Johnstone as Premier as well as Ian Duncan Smith as Chancellor of the Exchequer. I was going to vote No, as a lifelong Eurosceptic. But over the last few weeks I have heard the most sickening comments in the street and shops, usually from clipped Scots accents trying to out “Home Counties the Home Counties”.

    Fuck it. I’m holding my nose and voting Yes.

    Boris “I’m off to Africa to see the piccinnies with their watermelon smiles” Johnstone as next Prime Minister? The Queen and Prince Philip will be pleased.

    Stephen.

  106. DerekM says:

    Dead head Englander says dont look at the facts just use eenie meenie minie mo and tick a box.

    Dont strain that single brain cell now Engerland lol

    @ Naina Tal

    Just add a bit of haggis and a tattie scone and its no longer a fool english 😉

    It comes from about the 60-70`s when ex pats or immigrants went to Spain to take those poor Spanish peoples jobs by opening English bars and cafes i think.

  107. Blind Squirrel says:

    Scotland isn’t voting in the in out referendum. Media and pundits around the world talk about England voting on it.

  108. crazycat says:

    @ call me dave at 9.02 / cearc

    I’ve made a small contribution because the appeal specifies that it is for their living expenses – and they have no jobs – and visa fees.

    But as you say, to stay they need £2700 in an account for 90 days, but have only had their leave to remain extended for 60. I had hoped that despite that, a crowdfunder for the £2700 would be started (and yes, I suppose I could do it myself, though I don’t use social media which is the fastest way of promoting it, I expect).

    Perhaps the donations could be used for that anyway.

  109. Petra says:

    Worse case scenario is that Scotland gets pulled out of the EU against our wishes and is then at the total mercy of Westminster.

    Vote to Remain in the hope that it triggers another Referendum, we win it and then ….. reassess the ‘EU’ situation.

    SCOTLAND: ‘Enough is Enough’ …. Time to say Goodbye’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCtJ4kXUtb8

  110. Anagach says:


    Andy.D says:

    Vote Remain why? I will not be its out out out for me, why, IMMIGRATION if you guys think its ok to flood your country with Jonny Foreigner on you go I don’t.

    Which country Andy ?

    How will leaving the EU stop immigration, successive governments have allowed plenty (the majority of immigration) to come from outside the EU.

    Sorry but the mere term “Jonny Foreigner” puts you on the Xenophobic naughty step, I hope you meant it in bad taste as opposed to outright racism.

  111. I noticed in the Daily Stranger the unionists are angry over Tommy Sheppard’s article on the case for holding a second independence referendum.

  112. robertknight says:

    PLEASE CAN EVERYONE GIVE A WARM WELCOME TO THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM…

    It matters not if England votes to leave and Scotland votes to remain and at some point, during the minimum 2 year period of negotiation between rUK and EU, Westminster gives Holyrood the legal authority to hold a referendum on Scottish independence, because…

    THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, FOR A MULTITUDE OF REASONS, WILL TELL AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND TO GET TO THE BACK OF THE QUEUE TO JOIN THE EU, AND THERE IS NOTHING STURGEON OR ANYONE ELSE CAN DO ABOUT IT!

  113. Liz Rannoch says:

    GB and IB – The Bawbag – brilliant. Just about choked on ma porage! Any chance of a serialisation in the daily fail?
    The Bawbag 2? 3?
    So many bawbags so little time.

    Any way we can make ourselves more subtly noticeable? eg when in the ‘house down there’ could SNP MPs talk refer to ‘the United Kingdoms’ ..as a reminder.
    Stop the talk/print of ‘Scottish’ Labour and ‘Scottish’ Tories/Conservatives. Call them what they are fir crying out loud (National take note). Imagine Nicola in HR daily replying to Ruth with ‘The Conservatives (slight pause)want to..

    BTW it’s not just the Botham thing, from the same EBC site,
    How might brexit affect the ‘Premier League’
    :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36378586

    The Force for Good (?).. the National Association of Jewellers have decided to stamp all jewellery ‘Made in Britain’ with a ‘mib’ stamp because ‘the British name carries kudos in overseas markets’.

    @ Scott Finlayson 9.52 Agreed, meanwhile for anyone willing to contribute try Scottish Cancer Support money raised in Scotlan stays in Scotland. Their main site seems to be on FB and as I don’t do FB I don’t think I can provide a link.

    @ Petra 10.47 Great video, music gives me goosebumps and says so much.
    That’s my grump over (for now) off watch the tennis.

  114. Naina Tal says:

    Derek M
    Thanks for that clarification. Wonder if it might also have been all the package holidays where the Brit nats need their char and Fool Engerlish. (Saved them the bother of learning the Spanish words for eggs bacon sausage, fried etc.? )

  115. Lochside says:

    Chapter 4..Ian B’s continuuing novel:

    The following morning, Toby stared into his bathroom mirror …as the first purple slivers of dawn played across his balding pate…Damn! his neck and back were killing him….15 hours hard….picking up all that blinking rubbish all those bloody plebs left in his street…..when would this agony end?…He screwed up his much admired little piggy nose….savouring the determined set of his double chins….Someone’s got to do it he thought…. He squared up and stared hard at the mirror…..’You talkin’ to me?…..You talkin’ to me?…jabbing his stumpy finger at the mirror ..he fired an imaginary gun..’.Pick up that litter you fucking pleb’, he ejaculated…He slowly lowered his finger and smirked at his reflection…then murmured’ Here is a man who would not take it anymore…who stood up against the scum, the filth, the garbage…who stood up!..Some day a real rain will come and wash all the rubbish off the streets’.
    He grabbed the shaft of his hard brush along with a small shovel and headed out to the mean streets of South Ken… It was going to be a good day.

  116. Ken Wadron says:

    Why would that make you smile ? The scene looks like an illustration for the Anglo siege mentality: gated, embattled. paranoid.

  117. Ken500 says:

    When are the Royals going to apologise for their involvement in the 1WW and the Millions of deaths. The Britsh, German, Danish and Russian European Royals. Queen Victoria’s daughters and grandsons. The ‘divine right of Kings’. Cousins married cousins and their parents were cousins. Causing death, war and destruction and their own demise.

    It was the US/UK deregulation of the world banking system that caused variations in Europe.

    It was US/UK economic and foreign policies which has caused the migration crisis in Europe. Illegal wars and banking fraud. They refuse to take responsibility.

  118. Petra says:

    @ Andy.D says at 10:04am …. ”Vote Remain why? I will not be its out out out for me, why, IMMIGRATION if you guys think its ok to flood your country with Jonny Foreigner on you go I don’t.”

    Andy half, of the now around 600,000, of the ‘Jonny Foreigners’ that are coming to the UK in any one year aren’t coming from the EU at all and to my mind (talking to people in England) it’s that ‘half’ that many people in England are more concerned about. So basically if we leave the EU and ‘throw out’ their Nationals they’ll have to be replaced by individuals from other countries. In other words the aforementioned other ‘half’.

    Vote to Remain and when we get our Independence vote to get out of the EU (IF we are still in it), attempt to get another deal or seek an alliance elsewhere.

    Take a look at the following video at around 52:29 minutes in and note what Diane James, supporter of LEAVE, has to say.

    The BBC EU Debate – How Should I Vote? Alan Johnson, Diane James, Alex Salmond & Liam Fox.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqMMAw89FyQ

  119. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Knight,

    Scotland occupies a totally unique position as far as NATO and European defence is concerned. Forget about fish and agriculture and everything else. We are on one side of the Iceland Gap, which is the route that almost all Russian nuclear submarines take to access the Atlantic Ocean.

    America and NATO view this as of vital strategic importance,and operate within Scotland territorial boundary to monitor this area. It is major leverage in any discussion.

  120. chris kilby says:

    Toby Young. The bawbag’s bawbag.

  121. Andrew McLean says:

    Two countries spend three hundred years trying to be one united country and every generation struggles with its identity within the construct?

    That points to the whole concept of the great British constitutional experiment being flawed in concept, design and delivery, what will change it? As GB twists and fights to assert its identity in a federal arrangement in Europe, proclaiming a loss of sovereignty whilst at the same time trying to suffocate the same wishes within its separate nations. Probably destroying the Tory party in the process, the little Engenders, Brits and Europeans being to far apart to hold it together any longer.

    The solution to both Scotland’s and England’s future could be the same, complete federalization, whilst each nation has its own identity, expressed in adopted laws and retaining its nation state infrastructure, but still sharing the common weal ideas and ideals of the greater body of all the nations in Europe.

  122. Papadox says:

    @Bob Mack says 11:40 am

    Spot on Bob, one of the most strategic piece of land/water in the world. They will beat a path to our door. Think the yanks would want us as a very close PARTNER.

  123. Petra says:

    Robert Knight at 11:14am …. ”THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, FOR A MULTITUDE OF REASONS, WILL TELL AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND TO GET TO THE BACK OF THE QUEUE TO JOIN THE EU, AND THERE IS NOTHING STURGEON OR ANYONE ELSE CAN DO ABOUT IT!”

    Robert where did you come across that type of information? Sounds as though you’re confusing ‘someone’ (who?) with Obama. Have some faith. Over and above what Bob Mack has mentioned:

    ”Scotland occupies a totally unique position as far as NATO and European defence is concerned. Forget about fish and agriculture and everything else. We are on one side of the Iceland Gap, which is the route that almost all Russian nuclear submarines take to access the Atlantic Ocean. America and NATO view this as of vital strategic importance,and operate within Scotland territorial boundary to monitor this area. It is major leverage in any discussion.”

    Scotland with only 1% of Europe’s population has:

    25% of Europes tidal energy
    25% of wind power
    10% of wave energy
    Over 60% of EU oil production (largest oil reserve in the EU)
    33% of the EUs total hydrocarbon production

    Do you seriously think that Scotland would have to ‘get to the back of the queue’?

  124. Andrew McLean says:

    Robin Knight

    we a are already European citizens, or independent Scottish laws are EU compliant, as is everything the EU regulates,

    WE ARE NOT A NEW APPLICANT WE ARE A NAME CONVERSION COUNTRY

  125. Chic McGregor says:

    OT Brent crude has snuck quietly over the $50 mark.

  126. Petra says:

    For one minute I thought that Ian Botham was talking about Scotland in the lead up to the Scottish Referendum.

    ”We have a chance to govern ourselves again; look after our own borders. I just think we are losing our identity and we’re suddenly just going to get swallowed up.” …..

    ”If you were not in the EU (UK) and you stood here now and you looked at what was going on in the EU (UK) would you join? I don’t think so and I don’t understand why we want to stay in. There might be a few problems early on – teething problems.”….

    ”There’s been a lot of scaremongering going on and figures plucked out of the sky which I find quite amazing.”….

    Just as I find it quite amazing that they, such as Botham, can’t seem to see things from our perspective.

    Anyway I love the look of the ‘Jack’ being splattered all over that building (good luck to them) and I can’t wait for the day when our flag, the oldest in Europe and the Commonwealth, is splattered all over Scotland.

    (Short) History Of The United Kingdom (falling short of Robert’s standards!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC0vu2JInhM

    What Will Be The UK’s Name and Flag If Scotland Declares Independence? (the Jack incorporating the red hand of Ulster)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V765QwuZRiY

    Tories and Triggers (for Independence)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8zWlsyF1nU

    Scottish Independence is inevitable … C’mon stand together and Wave YOUR Flag

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eyVkMtO8bM

  127. cearc says:

    Ian b,

    New book, eh?

    About time too, nearly ten years since the last one y’slacker!

  128. orri says:

    There’s no queue. There’s a waiting list. There’s a set of qualifications to be passed. If the EU thinks it’s in it’s own best interest to have you as a member they’ll rewrite their guidelines to allow you to be one. It’s bullshit to think that countries who have been trying to join the EU for years could stand in the way of others.

  129. DerekM says:

    @ Naina Tal

    lol your welcome Naina Tal i might be wrong about that but it was the first place i ever noticed it,and baked beans for breakfast no thanks.

    I do remember speaking to a Spanish guy who asked me how can you eat that for breakfast and he was right its not a good idea to eat that in a hot country you just sleep and fart all day.

    Just the same as its not a good idea to drink 4 pints of heavy in the Spanish afternoon sun which i found out to my cost when i visited the Scotsman bar in Benidorm and he was the only one that had fry up breakfast served here(he did a mean haggis and no baked beans hurrah i had found civilisation lol

  130. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Chic McGregor at 12.02
    And it was never above $50 till 2006

  131. Joe Kinnear says:

    I wish the debate was better informed by evidence. The EU is a neo-liberal, transnational organisation which is deeply undemocratic and not responsive to sovereign power – no-one can vote the Commission out, no-one can vote the ECB etc. The EU is dysfunctional. Read Peter Mairs’ excellent book ‘Ruling the Void’ (and no he was not some Right-wing Tory but a highly respected political scientist).

    Equally why is Scottish independence such a good thing? Simple answer democracy. The sovereign will of the Scottish people can be fully expressed and represented in their political arrangements. Why then after a 300 year plus struggle to regain that sovereignity do most SNP types want to immediately sign over an ever ncreasingly larger portion to the EU?

    I think in part it reflects petty cultural politics – well we are not right-wing Tories so ipso facto we must embrace anything they seem to be against regardless of what the issue is. It’s disingenuous, intellectually incoherent, unthinking in its lack of independent thought (how ironic!) and politically maladroit.

    After all is the message from the SNP that Euro-sceptic Scots and supporters of independence (like myself) are unwanted/verboten or indeed that the future of an independent Scotland with regard to the EU is somehow not subject to political discussions and a referendum?

  132. Legerwood says:

    Petra @ 11.52 am and Robert Knight

    Re An independent Scotland and EU membership.

    This from Scotland on Sunday 20 July 2014. The article refers to a speech made by Mr Junkers which the NO side wilfully misinterpreted. Mr Junker’s spokesman put them right.

    “” SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE: New European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker is “sympathetic” to an independent Scotland joining the EU due to his experience as a politician from a small member state, it emerged last night.

    The revelation came after No campaign leaders claimed remarks by Juncker that the 28-member-EU needed “a break from enlargement” showed that Scotland would be kept out in the event of a Yes vote.

    However, Scotland on Sunday has learned that the hierarchy in Brussels would be unlikely to exclude an independent Scotland from the EU as it is already signed-up to “core EU requirements” for candidate member states on gender equality and workers’ rights.

    An independent Scotland’s potential membership would be treated as a “special and separate case” to nations wanting to join from regions such as the Balkans that have yet to satisfy all the rules, a senior EU source stated.

    The source directly contradicted claims from the No campaign, which seized on a speech by the EC president-elect last week to claim that he had banned an independent Scotland from joining the EU until 2019, after he told the European Parliament “no further enlargement will take place over the next five years.”

    Juncker’s EU spokeswoman had said the new EC president – a former prime minister of Luxembourg – was not referring to Scotland.

    However, a high-ranking EU official last night stated Junker “would not want Scotland to be kept out”. The source said: “He’d be sympathetic as someone who is from a smaller country as he’ll understand the obstacles that can be put in the way of less powerful member states.”

    Candidate countries for EU accession currently include the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey, who have yet to demonstrate they fulfil key membership requirements.””
    “”

  133. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Andy.D at 10.04

    I assume your post is meant as a joke.

    With up to 50 million people around the world descended from millions of Scots emigrants it’s a very poor joke.
    Without immigrants our population would actually have dropped

  134. Andrew McLean says:

    Joe Kinnear says:

    OK, if Scotland votes in and England says no, then that is grounds for a second referendum. END OF!

  135. Petra says:

    ‘May your CHOICES reflect your HOPES, not your FEARS …. Nelson Mandela’.

    Vote YES to ‘REMAIN’ on the 23rd June 2016 to give us (possibly) another shot at voting YES to get our Independence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q68maEDRUU0

  136. Dan Huil says:

    Scotland must vote Remain because England will vote Leave. IndyRef2 to follow. An independent Scotland will then decide on EU, NATO membership etc.

  137. louis.b.argyll says:

    Well said Dan,

    Scotland WILL decide if Scotland should be in or out of NATO/EU.

  138. heedtracker says:

    Joe Kinnear says:
    31 May, 2016 at 12:38 pm
    I wish the debate was better informed by evidence. The EU is a neo-liberal, transnational organisation which is deeply undemocratic and not responsive to sovereign power – no-one can vote the Commission out, no-one can vote the ECB etc

    You need a lot more detail to get away with that on here Joe. No one can vote the bank of England for starters.

    People are just not going to jeopardise an already wobbly as fcuk UK economy, especially for their house prices the further south in teamGB you get.

    If you worked your nuts for huge deposits, bought the houses, pay the giant mortgage month after month, the deal is, the house pays for itself as it hikes in value.

    Any UK economic problems that are not already more than clear, would mean interest rates going up and house prices falling. Osborne’s hasnt the faintest idea what he’s doing now. Toryboy world’s getting away with it low to zero interest rates and a corupt tory BBC. If the toryboy’s didn’t have the EU, they’re fcuked, the City’s fcuked, global manufacturers like Nissan in Sunderland’s are fcuked, we’re all fcuked.

    And all for what, tubes like Botham and Farage?

    Doubt it Joe.

    Then there’s easy as pie EU travel. The whole of Europe’s for everyone to come and go as they please. But lets all follow toryboy buffoons like Mike Gove and give it all up, because Gove’s decided there’ll be 4 new Birmingham’s in England before you know it.

    You lost Brexiteers. Give it up and retire with grace. haha!

  139. @Legerwood

    it was the late Lib Dem MP Charles Kennedy that used the misinformation about what Juncker had said at PMQ`s to try and scare his own people,

    this was after it had been clarified by Juncker that what he had said about new countries 5 year wait to join EU did not include the Scots,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8_VidwPhhg

  140. Petra says:

    @ Andy.D says at 10:04am …. ”Vote Remain why? I will not be its out out out for me, why, IMMIGRATION if you guys think its ok to flood your country with Jonny Foreigner on you go I don’t.”

    Andy half, of the now around 600,000, of the ‘Jonny Foreigners’ (Mmhh!) that are coming to the UK in any one year aren’t coming from the EU at all and to my mind (talking to people in England) it’s that ‘half’ that many people in England are more concerned about. So basically if we leave the EU and ‘throw out’ their Nationals they’ll have to be replaced by individuals from other countries. In other words the aforementioned other ‘half’.

    Vote to Remain and when we get our Independence vote to get out of the EU (IF we are still in it), attempt to get another deal or seek an alliance elsewhere.

    Take a look at the following video at around 52:29 minutes in and note what Diane James, supporter of LEAVE, has to say.

    The BBC EU Debate – How Should I Vote? Alan Johnson, Diane James, Alex Salmond & Liam Fox.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqMMAw89FyQ

  141. heedtracker says:

    From the dude that cooked up Vote Nob orders 2014, and got creeps like Gavin Estler’s BBC to spend days publicising Offord’s cunning stunts

    https://athousandflowers.net/2014/05/02/weekly-wanker-028-malcolm-offord/

    ofcourse Malky’s a Botham style Brexiteer too. Its amazing how many loaded toryboy’s suddenly care about slave wages or poor students not getting into uni these days

    http://archive.is/xARjD

    But Mr Offord said: “With the introduction of the minimum wage we are freezing out our own people. For, what is it £8 an hour, you can get a graduate from Romania who is well educated over a lower educated person from within this country.”

    http://www.scotlandineurope.eu/

  142. defo says:

    Talking of who organised, and authorised the electoral shenanigans…

    “Coroner Tom Osborne told the inquest in Bedfordshire “he would not investigate the underlying circumstances that led to his death”

    Move along now, nothing to see here.
    OBE’s all round.

    It’s how they apparently warned some at project battlebus about Mark Clark, but not all, and not interested much when he carried on, that gets me.
    The arrogance, the win whatever the cost arrogance.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-36417699

  143. heedtracker says:

    Cant think why rancid the Graun’s trying to break up Scotland remain votes:D

    http://archive.is/n9nhc

    Rancid The Graun doesn’t say it but its tiny sector now and they’d have completely emptied the seas and oceans of all life, if the EU hadn’t stopped them.

  144. defo says:

    “And whether these things are true or not, Exxon has not been able to soften its image in a way others have done.
    Its slogan could well be: “No-one likes us, but we don’t care.”

    I think you’ll find that slogan taken already BBC. 🙂

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36386001

  145. heedtracker says:

    And a pretty good hoof in the chugs there from rancid old Graun

    http://archive.is/jMIuB

    Scots Vile seps are horrid and so are Irish ones too

    “That’s why those magnificently transparent opportunists who run Sinn Féin are also on the remain side nowadays.

    They all may be right, but I would not bet the farm on it. People also sidle up to me and say, “If Brexit wins Ireland would end up leaving the EU too, you do realise, though no one says so”. Independent Scotland and a 32-county Ireland would be expensive hobbies, fit for poets and dreamers.”

    Ouchee.

    Although Scotland’s an expensive hobby in waiting is a new one from our imperial master baiters.

  146. Andrew McLean says:

    A few weeks from an election that could help the progression to independance and a certain Mr Sillars farts? Wonder what his agenda is this time? Actually the last time and the time before that should have him sent to the home for senile old SNPers but really this time is enought. His judgment always suspect marks him as either stupid or vindictive, and either way an embarrassing old fool!

  147. Valerie says:

    Not sure how folk like Robert Knight aren’t aware of Scotland’s strategic position, in terms of land mass, maritime and our exports.

    If England votes Brexit, all hell will break loose. The Tories will be stabbing each other to get Boris elected, the City of London will be orgasmic, and busy lobbying, the EU will put their energy into screwing over the Brexit terms.

    They will literally roll out the red carpet for Scotland to remain.

    We will finally get a chance to negotiate on our own terms for what matters to us, instead of being used by England as a bargaining chip.

    I’m sure not everyone knows, but Salmond and Sturgeon have in the past been invited to speak at EU gatherings. They have quietly worked away at being collegiate.

    James Kelly has just posted the latest poll and Leave looks to be pulling ahead.

    I just pray Scotland votes remain.

  148. Tinto Chiel says:

    BDTT, thanks for the Roy Harper suggestion, but I have something truly disturbing, an earworm which can induce a strange queasiness:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7yAC1Pz6Y

    I took off everything west of the www so it probably won’t work.

    And you’re all being so unfair to Mr Botham: he likes fishing in the lovely clear waters of our Scotlandshire, so there.

  149. Tinto Chiel says:

    Excellent comments, Valerie.

    I know Scotland is supposed to be 60%+ for Remain but I fear voter apathy up here. It would be great to get slung out of this Glorious Union (standing up, honest) because we kept England in, so I hope the vote gets out on the day.

    It’s a great opportunity to boot Boris’s nazzums (too squeamish to use the IB word).

  150. AlbertaScot says:

    I would have thought that the always plugged-in Rev would have been all over this like an auto-wrecker’s German Shepherd (junk yard dog) by now.

    But there’s the possibility of a delicious irony building here.

    Like, what if Brexit goes down to the wire with Leave winning in England by a sliver?

    But the overwhelming Scottish Stay vote snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.

    In other words “It’s the Scots what lost it!”

    What then?

    Will Boris and the Little Englanders declare the result illegitimate kinda like those EVEL votes in the H of C?

    Makes your heart race a little, don’t it?

  151. TD says:

    AlbertaScot at 3:30 p.m.

    The scenario you describe is the sweetest possible outcome. Boris, Botham, Farage and Gove don’t get what they want, we remain in Europe and the stresses on the UK are given another boost. The little Englanders will be apoplectic with rage. And some of them e.g. Bill Cash, a particularly obnoxious hard right Tory MP, are already talking about a vote of no confidence in Cameron, whatever way the referendum goes.

    So remaining in Europe with the pressure to split the UK building and the Tories committing hari-kari – what more could we hope for?

  152. call me dave says:

    Herald: Archive not working. 🙁

    SNP has lost its majority on Holyrood’s committees.

    Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh has announced a new committee structure, with 15 panels compared with nearly 20 in the last parliament.

    The SNP will nominate conveners for eight committees but will not have a majority on any of them.

    The party’s domination of the committees in the last parliament was blamed for eroding scrutiny of the government.

    Opposition MSPs complained that critical reports were watered down and potentially embarrassing inquiries were blocked by SNP backbenchers.

    In the new structure, agreed after three weeks of talks between party whips and the Presiding Officer, the SNP will have the biggest number of MSPs on every committee but could be outvoted by the opposition parties.

  153. galamcennalath says:

    TD says:

    “the Tories committing hari-kari”

    Yes, the Scots keeping England (who narrowly vote leave) in the EU would be a sweet situation.

    However, IMO it is important we have a Tory government at WM during IndyRef2. Preferably one led by someone even more objectionable than Cameron.

    IndyRef1 would have been different had everyone recognised that a Tory win in 2015 was likely, I am certain of that. People voted NO for many reasons but one would undoubtedly have been the hope that there would be a WM Labour government on the cards. In more than one way, Labour (with the BBC) caused the NO win, and the Tories boosted YES votes!

    Next time, the best scenario is a nasty Tory government at WM and little hope of it being replaced,

  154. ScottieDog says:

    O/T
    Interesting article about Icelandic recovery following 2008 GFC.
    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=33707

    Moral of the story – a sovereign currency is everything.

  155. TD says:

    galamcennalath at 4:47

    I assume you subscribe to the “Nicola Sturgeon would prefer the Tories to win the election” school of thought? (just kidding).

    There is a real dilemma for us here – do we want the Tories in power at Westminster or do we not? Would it be a good thing if the Tories lost their majority over the election expenses scandal and JC becomes PM? I agree that the Tories being in power at Westminster is probably worth a few percentage points to us in Indyref2 – maybe more.

    The good news is that we shouldn’t worry about it – because we have no say in it whatsoever. The Westminster government has been decided in England and will continue to be so. What we wish for is interesting, but that is all.

  156. robertknight says:

    To all those innocents who recon an independent Scotland to warrant special treatment for EU membership, I have one word for you…

    SPAIN

    The Spanish Government would rather see their fishing fleet denied access to Scottish waters than fan the flames of Catalan separatism.

    SPAIN WILL VETO ANY ATTEMPT TO FAST-TRACK SCOTLAND’S EU MEMBERSHIP

  157. Famous15 says:

    Spain cannot veto Scotland if it continues in the EU . Do not cry for me etc,you know we never left you!

    O/t does anyone know if Liam Fee had a “named person”?

  158. Legerwood says:

    Famous fifteen @ 5.43 pm

    The ‘named person’s legislation is not in effect yet. So the answer to your question is No

  159. Dr Jim says:

    Germany runs the EU and they love us

    Good old Angela

  160. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Knight,

    Then Spain would be at odds with America and NATO. Their own membership of the E U could well be in doubt,and I don’t think they are in a financial position to risk that.

  161. Cactus says:

    Aweright Ian Brotherhood, howsabout;

    The Bawbag.. featuring ‘Bulletproof Broon’ and the ‘The Toby Trilogies’ 🙂
    «««

    Gonna be a bonnie first day of June in sunny Scotland tomorrow. Twenty-three more of them to go till we should vote Yes to remain in the EU, hopefully.

    Voting remain is positive and seems the right thing to do (and especially so) if you want Scotland and her many citizens to once again become an independent country.. sooner rather than laters.

    As the newspapers and the television report their EU Ref stories, Wings’ll dissect the stories as they appear and give balanced voice here (together with the many contributing commenteers.)

    It’s up to you, undecided readers, to make up your own minds from the information provided. As always, you make the difference.

    Going to see Bruce Springsteen play Glasgow tomorrow.
    He was Born in the USA.. well I was Born in the GLA (not UK).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuJUq58VQXQ

    Taps aff!

  162. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Knight,

    Here’s another word for you

    GIBRALTER.

    Why do you think the Spanish let the British hold on to that eh? Perhaps because it is a major NATO base for ships of NATO allies?

  163. Capella says:

    Another look into the Irish experience, “The Burning of Cork”. From a loyal city of the empire, decked out in red, white and blue, to a seething rebel stronghold. The British are not so good at playing the peace card.

    Made by RTE (well the have their own film and tv industry). Part 1 12 mins

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXT105miU44

  164. defo says:

    robertknight says:

    31 May, 2016 at 5:33 pm

    “SPAIN WILL VETO ANY ATTEMPT TO FAST-TRACK SCOTLAND’S EU MEMBERSHIP”

    Baws.
    Spain will do real politic, same as it ever was. It’s the only game in town.

  165. robertknight says:

    Don’t confuse Scotland’s continued NATO membership with continued EU membership.

    Scotland is only a member of each organisation through its being a constituent country of the UK. The rUK, assuming a referendum was approved by Westminter and a majority in Scotland voted to leave the UK, would continue as a NATO member, and the same status would be afforded to an independent Scotland, as NEITHER PART (rUK or iScotland) WISHES TO LEAVE NATO.

    The EU is different as the rUK would be seeking to withdraw, whilst a contituent county of the UK wished to remain.

    The beaurocrats at Brussels will NOT differentiate between the constituent parts of the UK as all the treaties were entered into by the UK and NOT by Scotland/England/Wales/NI; as it was the entire UK who entered the EC/EU, only the entire UK can leave.

    Only once the entire UK is out of the EU, and Scotland has become a separate State from the rUK, would the EU then enter into accession talks with Scotland; placing Scotland at the end of the queue to join.

    As for Gib – the Treaty of Utrecht is what keeps it ‘British’, and short of reapeat of the Great Siege, (highly unlikely between fellow NATO member states), or the majority in Gib voting to rejoin Spain, (equally unlikely), then Gib would remain with the rUK, and leave the EU. Gib’s status doesn’t play any part in an independent Scotland seeking to continue the membership of the EU it had previously enjoyed as part of a former EU member; the UK.

  166. crazycat says:

    @ Legerwood / Famous 15

    There have been pilots for the Named Person role, or equivalents not called that, but I haven’t seen Fife mentioned as a location for such a thing (Edinburgh, Highland, South Ayrshire may not be an exhaustive list).

  167. robertnight says:

    “Baws” is it?

    As a continued member of NATO, (Nowt to do with EU status), iScotland’s “Strategic Importance” remains.

    However, Spain is far more interested with its own sovereign integrity than it is with the bank balance of a few Galician or Asturian fishermen.

    Spain will not bring about the dissolution of its present state for the sake of 5 million Scots with a few fish which are of interest to a few Spanish trawlermen.

    Other than access to fisheries, Scotland is only of interest to Spain in the context of NATO, and is of no interest to Spain in the context of the EU.

    Spain will not hesitate to veto Scottish fast-track membership.

  168. Dan Huil says:

    Fresh from scotgoespop:

    “The earth shakes as Leave takes the lead in astonishing TELEPHONE poll from “gold standard” ICM”

    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? (ICM, telephone)

    Remain 42% (-5) Leave 45% (+6)

  169. defo says:

    Heeds
    Your link to mr whites witterings..
    He hit the nail on the head re. ‘out’ lower income/elite motivations being diametrically opposed.
    ie Those concerned with migrants driving down wages, and having larger cocks in general, will end up with more of the same under the current bunch of neo-liberal,laissez fayre obsessed kleptomaniacs running the show.

    Voting to be left to the tender mercies of sociopathic monsters.
    Another Stockholm syndrome situation.

  170. Bob Mack says:

    @Roberf Knight,

    No sorry Robert.The treaty of Utrecht won’t work. Spain has twice attempted to cut off Gibraltar access to force the British into negotiation. America and NATO leaned on Spain and things went back to normal.

    To find,you need to look Robert.

  171. defo says:

    robertknight
    “Only once the entire UK is out of the EU, and Scotland has become a separate State from the rUK, would the EU then enter into accession talks with Scotland; placing Scotland at the end of the queue to join.”

    Again. Baws. Make me look silly, and post up the relevant legislation. “Entire” ?

  172. robertknight says:

    Bob Mack…

    With respect, you’re comparing apples with oranges…

    Don’t equate NATO membership scenarios with EU membership scenarios.

  173. Dr Jim says:

    Looking forward to the EU saying the word Scotland a lot
    and inviting us to all the Doos and top table chairs and the telly having to report it and oor wee Saltire Flag going up the pole and fluttering away in the European breeze

    While the English Union Flag gets taen doon the pole unceremoniously and withoot a Menshy although the English will likely play a sad war tune
    They like doing that sort of thing

    It’s a wee picture eh

  174. Grouse Beater says:

    Spain raised as Scotland’s bogeyman for future nation state EU membership is a typical ruse of the right-wing. It’s a simpleton’s one word debate stopper. They might as well say “Spain – end of” for all the argument they intend to accept.

    Spain has a right-wing government at the moment, but it’s facing some serious challenges to its rule. The massive protests from grass roots Indignatus and the Catalonians make it very shaky indeed.

    The right-wing might as well say France, or Germany, or even Lichtenstein will object … in the end it’s England.

    It always was England.

    It always will be England.

    It was England objected to the Darien scheme and plotted hard against its success. History has repeated itself. We are what we are now because of England’s imperial might.

    Tossing Spain at us is the trousers rolled up ex-pat’s scare made on his way to an English pub for a beer.

  175. Andy.D says:

    Petra @13.24
    Thanks Petra but all Jonny foreigners not just EU need to be stopped, we need to close the borders till we decide how we are going to control IMMIGRATION. I am old enough to remember controlled Immigration not a free for all and as for lots of brits going abroad to be forklift drivers and warehousemen for example utter hogwash. I have travelled the world with work and the only Brits I find abroad are Students taking a year out, grads in work or beach bums serving in bars. So the EU is brill my ass cant be reformed as Cameron showed or was this a side show who knows but I say again lets get out of this pishh. EU OUT for me.

  176. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Knight,

    The majority of the EU are members of NATO, and others such as Austria,Ireland who are not members participate nonetheless in ALL NATO meetings. Therefore to say they are not the same thing is a tad disingenuous on your part.

  177. Legerwood says:

    crazycat

    I know there have been pilots – extensive ones – various areas but it has not yet been rolled out across the board yet although Councils have started to appoint additional Health Visitors. The SG has provided extra money for this.

    Unfortunately because of the court challenges to the scheme it’s roll out may be delayed.

  178. Orri says:

    The predecessor to the EU has a similar situation where part of a member state withdrew. In principle if the push to true federalism was to go ahead the majority of the UK, or even just England, could withdraw leaving Scotland, Wales and NI inside.

  179. Ruby says:

    The argument that a YES vote in IndyRef would mean end of EU membership for iScotland formed a huge part of Better Together’s argument.

    They wont have that particular scare story in IndyRef2.

    I felt very ill informed re iScotland’s EU status during the IndyRef and that is because the UK Gov wanted it that way.

    The argument from Better Together was that being outside the EU would be very bad for Scotland so I would imagine with Better Together’s argument still very fresh in our minds Scotland will vote to remain.

    ‘Chris Grayling dismisses notion of second Scottish independence poll on back of Brexit as Hot air’ Herald

    Interesting BTL comment on this article.

    Their complaint about being ruled by the EU/not being Independent would be valid if the EU refused to allow them to have a referendum.

  180. Legerwood says:

    Channel 4 news just did a piece on the family facing deportation. Young SNP MSP from the area was on. She acquitted herself very well. Fluent and well briefed.

  181. gerry parker says:

    @ Naina Tal.

    I got a full Scottish at Mc Monagles in Clydenbank.

    Came wie a guid big helpin o’ chips too. – No beans, I don’t like beans on my breakfast plate.

  182. TD says:

    Robert Knight

    Can I just say that putting your words in bold block capitals will not make them any more convincing. Try putting up a rational argument – then you don’t need bold block capitals.

  183. Ruby says:

    Andy.D

    Have you been to Spain?

  184. Valerie says:

    @Robert Knight

    There is nothing innocent about remarks on here about the EU being favourable to an independent Scotland. It was all laid out in the White Paper prior to the referendum.

    The legal position under the various articles within Treaties is explained in detail in a large pdf file at Scot.gov so you maybe want to do a bit of reading, rather than scrabbling around for grenades to lob.

  185. Brian says:

    Legerwood, just watched that ch4 news article about the brain family and I can’t quite believe they twisted it into a race issue.

  186. Petra says:

    @ Joe Kinnear says at 12:38 pm …. ”I wish the debate was better informed by evidence. The EU is a neo-liberal, transnational organisation which is deeply undemocratic and not responsive to sovereign power – no-one can vote the Commission out, no-one can vote the ECB etc. The EU is dysfunctional….

    Equally why is Scottish independence such a good thing? Simple answer democracy. The sovereign will of the Scottish people can be fully expressed and represented in their political arrangements. Why then after a 300 year plus struggle to regain that sovereignity do most SNP types want to immediately sign over an ever ncreasingly larger portion to the EU?…

    After all is the message from the SNP that Euro-sceptic Scots and supporters of independence (like myself) are unwanted/verboten or indeed that the future of an independent Scotland with regard to the EU is somehow not subject to political discussions and a referendum?”

    Joe I’m sure that many Scots, prior Yes and No voters, will totally agree with your way of thinking: A number on here in fact and I am one of them. I’ve been far from impressed with many of the EU policies, practises, decisions that have been taken, the corruption and gravy train riders. And of course who can forget what has happened to Greece?

    However the way I see it is that the future holds four types of scenarios for us (me that is) to consider:

    1. We all vote to stay and the status quo remains (living under two corrupt dictatorships).

    2. We all vote to leave and we are still lumbered with a Westminster that is totally unrestrained, in many key areas …. too many to mention on here, by the EU.

    3. We vote to leave and England votes to stay would no doubt culminate in prior No voters being disgruntled and reinforce Yes voters intentions, however Westminster would continue to attempt to bring Scotland to its knees, further castigate the SNP via BBC etc and tighten their hold on us such as by trying to push through their no Indyref2, for 15 years, plan. By that time Scotland will be flooded by rUK No voters and we can forget it (that’s if it’s not too late already).

    4. We vote to stay and England votes to leave could result in Indyref2 being called for (only if it’s a sure thing to win) and if not could accrue in many more people voting for Independence in the near future especially when unemployment rises, we’re dragged into another War, more disgusting Westminster revelations are exposed and so on. It wont take much to tip the balance and we know without a doubt that there’s even more ‘punishment’ in the offing for us and ‘dirty deeds’ due to be unearthed …. that WILL tip the balance.

    The point being I’ll be voting to remain in the EU with one thing in mind only and that is that it could result in us getting rid of Westminster ASAP. At that point in time rUK would have left the EU which may result in the EU being more inclined to ‘listen to the people’ and get their act together …. clean up their act

    If not when we are Independent we can analyse all of the facts, for and against, unencumbered by a lying, scare-mongering Westminster and call for our own in / out EU Referendum.

  187. Ruby says:

    https://archive.is/7us0J

    ‘A French government minister has sparked a row by suggesting his country could end UK border controls in Calais if Britain leaves the EU.’

  188. Ruby says:

    https://archive.is/7us0J

    ‘Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin said “propaganda” was “being produced by other European governments at the request of the prime minister to try to scare people away from voting to leave”.

    Did they do something similar during the IndyRef?

  189. Robert Peffers says:

    @robertknight says: 31 May, 2016 at 11:14 am:

    ” … PLEASE THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, FOR A MULTITUDE OF REASONS, WILL TELL AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND TO GET TO THE BACK OF THE QUEUE TO JOIN THE EU, AND THERE IS NOTHING STURGEON OR ANYONE ELSE CAN DO ABOUT IT!”

    Utter pish! In the first place the European Commission doesn’t get a vote IN ANYTHING.

    They are COMMISSIONERS, which word means they are paid for European Parliamentary Civil Servants. They don’t get to vote in the EU parliament.

    Next up there are no EU laws, or other mechanisms, to expel existing European citizens and all Scots hold legal EU citizenship. They cannot be made non-EU citizens against their will.

    Next up is the wee fact that Scotland has the majority of Europe’s oil & gas reserves along with a rarely mentioned vast reserve of what is known as, “Fire Ice”,
    Note:-

    “Fire Ice”, otherwise known as, “Methane Hydrate”, is presents as ice crystals with natural methane gas locked inside. They are formed through a combination of low temperatures and high pressure, and are found primarily on the edge of continental shelves where the seabed drops sharply away into the deep ocean floor. Just as it does West of the Northern Isles of Scotland in what is recognized as Scottish Territorial jurisdiction.

    Next you will be telling us that Spain will veto Scotland as a member state of the EU. Mair Pish!

    Scotland is already an EU member by dint of being one equal partner kingdom in The United Kingdom. The other partner Kingdom of that Treaty of Union is the three country Kingdom of England and the UK is legally exactly what it calls itself A KINGDOM. The UK legally ends if either partner withdraws from the treaty.

    Now here’s facts for you – The largest fishing fleet in the EU is Spain’s and the largest and richest European fishing grounds lie mainly in Scottish territorial waters and if Spain were to veto Scotland they would be preventing themselves legal access to Scottish waters under international Law of the Seas. European fishers only gain access to fish Scottish waters by dint of Scotland being an EU Member as part of the UK. No UK no Spanish trawlers in Scottish waters.

  190. Grouse Beater says:

    Nobody enters negotiations on the basis they will fail.
    Nobody entertains negotiations on the basis the other party wastes their time.

    Joining the EU isn’t sending a Boy Scout with a note. You send in your best negotiators to talk shared benefits.

    We make the other families an offer they can’t refuse. That what politicians are for. It keeps our hands clean.

    Capice?

    Just ask any Mafioso: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7dL

  191. Ken500 says:

    Scotland would do well in or out of the EU. It is the UK Union that is the problem. Out of the EU in a UK Union without EU protection. That will damage Scotland because of the Westminster Unionist greedy liars and criminals who break the Law. They will do anything to muck up the Scottish economy.

  192. robertknight says:

    Newsflash… Spain couldn’t give a XXXX for Scotland, and if it came down to Spanish trawlermen having access to Scottish waters versus giving the green light to Catalonia using iScotland in the EU as an excuse for UDI, then the fishheads will lose.

    NATO and the EU are not the same beast, so compare and contrast all you like, it doesn’t work.

    The UK is in the EU. If the UK leaves then so does Scotland, against its will or otherwise. If Scotland then leaves the UK in order to join the EU, then you’re into unchartered waters in terms of EU legislation, and I’ll show you ‘my’ legislation if you’ll show me ‘yours’. The only ‘legislation’ in place deals with new applicants, and plenty would argue an iScotland was just that.

    I’ll happily agree that legislation to support either argument doesn’t exists, but to pretend the process is a mere formality, as some here and in the SNP would suggest, is as ludicrous as it is naive.

  193. Ruby says:

    I keep having to check that I’m not looking at a thread from May 2014!

  194. Grouse Beater says:

    Robert Knight: “To pretend the process is a mere formality, as some here and in the SNP would suggest, is as ludicrous as it is naive.”

    Who argued it’s a formality?

    To argue it’s an impossibility is a loser’s charter. I’m sure Spain would welcome and enjoy Scotland siding with it over appropriation of Gibraltar.

    Next squirrel…

  195. Valerie says:

    @Robert Knight

    That first para is just ridiculous, in terms of contradicting itself.

    Spain is one country fishing our water’s due to WM offering us as a sacrifice. You quite happy about that.

    Beginning to think your avatars is lie.

    There IS legal grounds for our application. No one has said it’s a done deal, but SNP aren’t liars, and the party is full of solicitors.

    You are chatting shit, and you refuse to read up on it.

  196. Robert Peffers says:

    @orri says: 31 May, 2016 at 12:11 pm:

    ” … There’s no queue. There’s a waiting list.”

    Either way it doesn’t alter a few simple, self evident, legal facts.

    The 1706/7 Treaty of Union is a legal treaty between TWO KINGDOMS. As such the resultant union cannot be other than a United KINGDOM.

    Read the bloody document for heaven’s sake! There is not a single mention of state or country in the entire treaty. What was united was two Kingdoms and one of them contained three countries in 1706/7.

    So what is the Member State in the European Union is a legally united kingdom, or a Royal Realm. If the Kingdom of Scotland, or the Kingdom of England, leave the United Kingdom that United Kingdom ceases to legally exist. The Status Quo Ante thus reverts to two, equally sovereign, Independent Kingdoms.

    If the EU keeps one as a member state it must also keep the other as a member state for there is no more UK to hold membership. Conversely if the EU expels one it must also expel the other. It ain’t gonna happen.

    It could, quite legally, accept both as independent joint members. In fact under EU law there is no legal way to expel any EU citizens against their wishes. The most likely legal move is to keep both former parts of the United Kingdom as EU members for, as already explained, If the bipartite UK splits there is no legal EU way to expel either group of EU citizens.

    Furthermore, the whole ethos of the EU is to unite European nations – not to throw them out.

  197. Bob Mack says:

    There is truly one fish head on this site tonight, and it ain’t me. Some people refuse to think for themselves,so what can you do.

    Blinded by stupidity.

  198. Petra says:

    @ robertknight says at 7:15 pm …. EU and NATO

    Robert I understand that we would have to renegotiate with the EU but that might not be a bad thing at all …. positive in fact and I doubt we’d be placed at the end of any queue either due to a number of points that were made on here earlier.

    As to NATO we were bombarded with lies and scaremongering previously, however I’m more inclined to listen to and believe Dame Mariot Leslie former UK Ambassador to NATO (until September 2014) …. a Scot who voted Yes in the Referendum. Additionally prior Director-General for Defence and Intelligence at the UK’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office …. not too bothered about us not having Nukes and supportive of Alex Salmond’s defence proposals / programme for Faslane. And just to point out to the 540 or so Scots employed there …. your jobs would have been safe.

    ”Leslie says Scotland’s geography, economy, demography and politics are “so distinctive” that they are best served by their own (Independent) sovereign government.

    She argued an Independent Scotland would be welcomed into the nuclear-based defense alliance NATO even if Scotland ended the Trident nuclear program.

    “A democratic, non-nuclear Scotland with strong military and technological traditions would fit naturally alongside similar NATO members in Northern Europe,” she wrote.”

    “I am sure that it would be in Scotland’s interest to join NATO and to continue to anchor our own defense in a wider alliance of Western democracies. But I am also in no doubt that the other 28 NATO allies would see it in their interests to welcome an independent Scotland into NATO.”

    http://www.rt.com/uk/184732-scottish-independence-ambassador-nato/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariot_Leslie

  199. Graf Midgehunter says:

    As a Scot who lives and works in Germany, I can assure you that should Scotland wish to remain in the EU following a vote from Englishland to leave, then the Germans would very quickly find a pragmatic way to enable a seamless changeover for Scotland.

    When talking to Germans about the UK you very quickly notice a “Chalk an Cheese” situation.

    Say “Scottish” and their eyes light up. Get past the Braveheart bit and then the curiosity really kicks in with questions about the country and quite often the economy. Germans love their manufacturing base and exporting..!

    Say “English” – it’s almost a conversation killer. Arrogance, London, banks, clever dicks, always moaning an groaning, bugger off and oh yes – Queeny is great..! 😉

  200. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “It is a political union of countries, states and kingdoms.”

    It is a political union of STATES, also called COUNTRIES.

    The UK is a political STATE.

    Or is it not according to you?

  201. cearc says:

    Meanwhile, two more types of tory election fraud.

    http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/31/conservatives-secretly-advertised-covert-jobs-2015-general-election-campaign/

    http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/31/whistleblower-exposes-major-new-allegation-tory-election-fraud-scandal-exclusive/

    With these two raised more witnesses may come forward, as it is quite likely that the people employed in these scams would have had no idea that it was illegal.

  202. Ken500 says:

    A majority in Catalonia is not voting for a Referendum on Independence. EU citizens resident in Spain are not allowed to vote in Regional or National Elections. They can only vote in local or EU elections. The vote is not representational. Spanish politicians and establishment are a bunch of crooks. Members of the Royal family have been charged with corruption and embezzlement. Bankers, politicians and lawyers have gone to jail. Total corruption. They have fleeced EU citizens.

    Under EU regulations each home port has an 100? kilometre exclusive radius.

    Where are the Spanish fisherman in the Mediterranean fishing from their home ports. British fishermen can fish in other EU waters.

    Spain and France are major markets for Scottish fish and prawns. They are sold their by Scottish/fishermen/firms for the best prices. The lorries leave every night. Scottish beef is also sold in the EU for top prices.

  203. cearc says:

    Cactus,

    Enjoy the concert for me too! You lucky lad.

  204. Legerwood says:

    Brian @ 8.04

    I know. I could not believe it either but I thought the MSP handled it well. I am sure she did not expect it to make that turn but she was clearly able to think on her feet. Thought the laser was a complete so and so. Nothing that was said was going to change her position.

  205. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dan Huil says: 31 May, 2016 at 12:50 pm:

    “Scotland must vote Remain because England will vote Leave. IndyRef2 to follow. An independent Scotland will then decide on EU, NATO membership etc.”

    Just where did you get that load of propaganda crap from Dan?

    As I already posted up-thread the legal facts tell a very different story.

    The name of the unit that joined the European Union is without doubt, “The United Kingdom”, and what the Treaty of Union united was indeed two only equally sovereign independent kingdoms that just happened, by intermarriages of their respective monarchies, to end up with their crowns on the same person’s head.

    There is absolutely no doubt that the two kingdoms remained independent as they continued to exist as independent kingdoms for the next 104 years until 1707.

    Indeed the whole requirement for a Treaty of Union in the first place was because the two had remained independent for 104 years. So let’s not become indoctrinated by Westminster Establishment propaganda.

    The legal status of the United Kingdom is that it remains a Kingdom and at no time has there been any legislation to make it a country and note that the countries of the United Kingdom have always remained countries.

    You will not find a singe mention of countries in the Treaty of Union that legally united two only kingdoms.

    So the facts in regard to the EU is that the EU accepted as a member state two equally sovereign kingdoms as a United Kingdom and that united kingdom contains four countries. The EU has no laws to expel EU citizens against their will. They cannot thus throw anyone out of the EU. The only ones ever to leave did so of their own violation.

    The truth is that the Scots are already EU citizens and cannot be thrown out but can opt to leave. The same goes for England.

    It is thus quite legal for the UK to disunite and one, both or neither Kingdom to leave or stay as EU members. What cannot happen is they be thrown out by the EU or made non-citizens against their wills.

    Perhaps now you can see why the EU is rather reluctant to come down on either side of the United Kingdom’s political in-fighting. The EC is a quite different matter and in their case I cannot recall a single instance when a commissioner has ever committed themselves to taking sides directly. Many, though, have been misquoted by the UK press and broadcasters.

    There simple is no way for the EU to throw out either Scotland as a country or as a kingdom for their rules are explicit that they have no way to de-citezenize EU citizens.

  206. HandandShrimp says:

    The latest polls seem to suggest that it will be a tight call.

    That should liven things up in the 1922 committee.

  207. Valerie says:

    @Robert Knight

    I have searched lots of stuff out there to try and get something succinct.

    The blindingly obvious thing should have also been brought to your attention, as you have missed it. The nawbags used their no entry arguments during Scotland’s referendum, as lies to frighten – they haven’t even tried it this time.

    Here is Wiki

    The Scottish National Party, presently in power in the Scottish Government, held a referendum on the independence of Scotland from the United Kingdom, an EU member state, on 18 September 2014. Should a majority have voted for independence, this would have been the first time the European Union would have had to deal with the breakup of any existing EU member state.

    There are no clear agreements or treaties covering such a scenario. The question that would have arisen is whether one state is a successor (the UK) and one a new applicant (Scotland) or, alternatively, both are new states which must be admitted to the European Union.[17]

    However the UK Government’s legal advice on the issue was that ‘Since the [remainder of the UK] would be the same state as the UK, its EU membership would continue’,[18] while speculating that ‘On the face of it, Scotland would be required to accede to the EU as a new state, which would require negotiations on the terms of its membership …’, but that ‘Scotland’s position within the EU is likely to be shaped more by any agreements between the parties than by pre-existing principles of EU law.'[19]

    So, even our overlords have legal advice that we have continued rights as EU citizens.

  208. Petra says:

    @ Ruby says at 8:11 pm …. ”A French government minister has sparked a row by suggesting his country could end UK border controls in Calais if Britain leaves the EU.’’

    Meanwhile following the ‘Albanian attempt’ to cross the Channel it’s just been reported on the news that the UK has three patrol boats to cover 7,000 miles of coastline and France has forty to cover 3,000 miles.

    We’ve to listen to all of the ‘threats’ about individuals managing to get from Calais, or not, to Dover whilst they’re all setting sail and landing all over the place, and have been doing so for quite some time, as per a customs expert.

    As the Tories cut, cut, cut away to line their own pockets, and turn a blind eye to tax avoidance / evasion, Scotlands oil fields on the East coast and Nuclear weapons on the West coast are totally unprotected, especially now with Westminster’s three wee boats concentrated in the Channel in an attempt to prevent the forthcoming invasion. The UK, between one thing and another, is going down the veritable stank, imo.

    Get real Indy No voters FGS.

  209. Petra says:

    Strange! Last post seems to have been altered …. ‘Caesar!nian’ should read a l b a n i a n.

  210. Bob Mack says:

    @Rock,

    You may well be right that the United Kingdom is seen as a state,but the problem they have is that the Queen has undisputed sovereignty over England ,but is not sovereign here in Scotland.

    It therefore indicates that the term state is in words only and not in totality of practice. Would we I wonder even have been allowed to have a referendum at all if Cameron had been imbued with the legal right to deny it.

    Scotland at the end of it all, is still seen as a country,albeit with lesser powers than the” British State. “

  211. Petra says:

    @ cearc says at 9:20 pm …. ”Meanwhile, two more types of tory election fraud. With these two raised more witnesses may come forward, as it is quite likely that the people employed in these scams would have had no idea that it was illegal.”

    http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/31/conservatives-secretly-advertised-covert-jobs-2015-general-election-campaign/

    http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/31/whistleblower-exposes-major-new-allegation-tory-election-fraud-scandal-exclusive/

    Thanks for the links cearc. Very interesting indeed. More skullduggery!

    It makes me wonder if any electoral fraud was carried out when busloads of English people made their way to Scotland, and stayed over, to canvas prior to the Referendum? Additionally I wonder how much money Moothie spent, on her MANY leaflets, in the lead up to the recent election? She seems to have had a great deal of money at her disposal.

  212. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ruby says: 31 May, 2016 at 8:11 pm:” … A French government minister has sparked a row by suggesting his country could end UK border controls in Calais if Britain leaves the EU.’”

    It would be very hard for, “Britain”, to leave the EU for the very good reason that, “Britain”, has never been a member of the EU in the first place.

    However, if the UK, (a Kingdom but not a single country), as a unit, left the EU it is only right that France would treat the UK as a non-EU member state and not be allowed to do anything whatsoever on French territory unless France agreed for them to do so.

  213. crazycat says:

    @ Petra

    The automatic substitution was introduced a few weeks ago to deter people from signing themselves s a o r A l b a etc.

    It can’t distinguish between those four letters as a complete Gaelic word or as part of a longer word.

  214. robertknight says:

    Well, we’ve got three weeks to find out if such discussions are academic, however without the definative hard facts, (which the UK Govt. asked for and received two years ago, but didn’t make public), I sense some here are clutching at straws.

  215. heedtracker says:

    Additionally I wonder how much money Moothie spent, on her MANY leaflets, in the lead up to the recent election? She seems to have had a great deal of money at her disposal.

    Mirror says its 29 tory MP’s now. More to the point, has our relentlessly ghastly BBC Scotland creep show even approached Ruth MacThatcher for a comment at all. No.

    http://archive.is/iOIg8

  216. Grouse Beater says:

    Knight: “without the definative hard facts”

    There are NO definitive ‘hard facts’ in political economics. There are things that worked in the past and might work again if conditions are right. You negotiate and try to engineer the best solution for your nation acceptable to the other.

    By the way, the anxieties you express are yours.

    You won’t be among the squad sent to the negotiation table when the time comes. And when that times comes who knows how the political map of Europe will have altered.

  217. Rock says:

    Bob Mack,

    “@Rock,

    “You may well be right that the United Kingdom is seen as a state,but the problem they have is that the Queen has undisputed sovereignty over England ,but is not sovereign here in Scotland.

    It therefore indicates that the term state is in words only and not in totality of practice.”

    International organisations like the UN, EU, Nato don’t give a damn about the purring queen, or the internal arrangements of the UK.

    The UK IS a political STATE in totality in practice.

    “Scotland at the end of it all, is still seen as a country,albeit with lesser powers than the” British State.“”

    Scotland might be SEEN as a country, but in almost totality in practice it is little more than a region of the UK.

    Its “independent” judiciary and church are part of the London based establishment.

    Gordon Brown and Robert Peffers agree absolutely on one point: Scotland is North Britain and will be North Britain after independence.

    After more than 300 years, “sovereign” Scotland is still a colony of England in practice, long after the colonies became independent and sovereign.

    “Sovereign” my foot.

  218. defo says:

    I sense someone is taking the Michael..
    Kit ?

  219. yesindyref2 says:

    @robertknight “hard facts”

    Here are the hard facts:

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=celex%3A12012M%2FTXT

    There’s this European Council you see, which basically is the head of state of each member state. Which decides what the EU is going to do in principle. So if it decides Scotland stays in the EU, then the Commission pore carefully over all the Articles and work out what interpretation of them helps that case, and puts that back to the Council.

    Now take Spain which has a Constitution that prevents Catalonia even having an Independence referendum unless it changes it, unlike the UK which can “allow” Scotland to have a referendum, let’s say for the sake of argument it doesn’t want to encourage the “separatists”. So Spain doesn’t want to vote FOR Scotland to be kept in, in fact it would prefer not to abstain, but to vote against.

    Well, it seems one of the things this Council can do in most cases is to decide to decide things on a qualified majority, rather than a unanimous one – even for making changes to the Articles. As long as it makes that decision to do so unanimously.

    Simple. The Council vote to make the decision on a qualified majority, Spain votes against and gets outvoted. Everyone is happy.

    And why should Spain accede to the wishes of the Council on this minor detail point of making it a qualified majority voting matter? Well, there is the ECB of course …

    This is a thing called Realpolitik. If the EU as a whole wants Scotland, then Scotland stays in. All that needs changing is a small change to the list of member states in Article 52. A mere detail.

  220. Clootie says:

    The difficulties of joining or leaving the EU are often discussed but I have yet to read a clear explanation of how 16 million East Germans became EU citizens. East Germany was a recognised nation which had never applied to join the EU. The legal issues vanished and it became part of Germany and it’s citizens awarded EU status.

    How can one member (Germany)award citizens of another country (East Germany) citizenship of their nation and full EU membership and yet another member (The UK) can apparently deny citizens with existing EU membership (Scots) who wished to return to a individual nation status from an internal partnership.

    The EU it appears can award membership to 16 million without a clear mandate.
    The EU implied it could remove EU membership from Scots had they voted YES.

    It appears the rules can be bent for some and not others.

  221. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, I forgot to say. It appears Article 4 gives Spain all the protection it needs, within the EU. WHich would be the same for the UK, in terms of the EU at least.

  222. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood @ Lochside

    Chapter 5 of “The Bawbag”

    Toby was smiling as he stepped down the stairs from his apartment into the sunshine on Sloane Avenue, today his mission was to free the mean streets of South Kensington of litter all the way from his home to the Saatchi Gallery. There was no room for rubbish in his life.

    He had swept and scooped dog shit from the pavement barely more than a hundred yards before he spotted something that he hadn’t expected, it was him, the police officer from last night standing right across the road. He panicked a little, “What does he want? “Why is he back?”

    The policeman beckoned Toby over the road, “Toby” he said “Thanks for last night, all those tips on keeping the streets clean for the Queen will come in very handy” then he smiled. “I just wanted to give you this as a thank you” as he handed Toby a Poop Grabber Scoop with a grin as wide as a Cheshire cat “No more bending over for you now old man” he said.

  223. Bob Mack says:

    @Rock,

    It may seem ,or you may wish the issue of sovereignty to be semantics,but it has a solid legal base,and that process may be what is required ultimately to decide the issue rather than your “Naw it isnae” philosophy.

  224. crazycat says:

    @ Legerwood

    I’ve just seen some retweets (not sure if this link will work) saying that there was a Named Person pilot in Fife at the relevant time, but it did not include data-sharing without consent:

    https://twitter.com/JamesMacEachern/status/737763402727227392

    So the answer to Famous 15’s original question is, potentially, yes. Ruth Davidson appears to think it is therefore appropriate to do a bit of political point-scoring.

  225. defo says:

    Bored ? I was. A wee amuse-bouche on the relationship between the ‘second’, and fourth estates.
    USA, but it’s the same deal here too. As we know.

    John Sopel.
    On Trump really, but includes these classic lines.

    “There has always been an uneasy relationship between press and politicians. And rightly so. We have different objectives.

    There’s the famous H L Mencken quote from decades ago when he said that the relationship between a journalist and a politician ought to be the same as a dog and a lamp post – and I have always hated it.

    The presumption is that we are pure, and all politicians are venal and deserve the crap kicked out of them. Nearly all the politicians whom I have come to know have been motivated by a commitment to making the world a better place – yes, they may be ambitious, self-important people – but tell me one walk of life where you don’t find people like that.

    It is our job to test our elected officials, to subject them to scrutiny, to ask the questions the public want answering and hopefully to be fearless in our pursuit of those questions.

    And to do so respectfully.

    That is our job, and a free press able to do that is one of the cornerstones of a liberal democracy.

    To rework the Mencken quote Mr Trump seems to think that we are the lamp post.”
    ===========================================

    From a man who’s been with Auntie almost since Beith was a teaboy too.
    Fair do’s the Donald BTW. He didn’t half rip into them.
    He is still mental though.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36422611

  226. Taranaich says:

    Still perplexes me that people are still treating this referendum as if the question was “should Scotland remain part of, or leave, the EU.” The word “Scotland” isn’t on the ballot. “United Kingdom” is. We are not voting as citizens of an independent Scotland. We are voting as subjects of the United Kingdom. Westminster saw to it, after all.

    The vote is whether we decide to keep our relationship with Europe as it is currently, or whether we want to help hand over even more power to Westminster. You know, the people that we’ve been fighting to take powers AWAY from for the past 80 years. The people that suppressed our wealth, destroyed our industries, neglected our people, poisoned our waters, irradiated our land, stole our territory, and ultimately did everything they could to deny us our sovereignty. Vote Remain, and we keep things as they are: vote Leave, and we’re handing even more control to the people who have hurt us the most.

    How is this even a debate?

  227. Thepnr says:

    @Taranaich

    Yes, exactly. It really doesn’t require much thinking.

    If we must then remain in the UK that at least EU law offers some protection from the the neo-cons who wish to scrap human rights and employment rights lays that cover the whole EU.

    Subject to only neo-con UK law then I believe we are stuffed.

    UK Lawmakers, our elected govermnent are corrupt, might explain why the Brexiters want out. More in it for them.

  228. Still Positive. says:

    Taranaich @11.08.

    Well said Sir, my sentiments exactly.

    The pnr @ 11.15.

    We must protect ourselves from Tories who want to destroy our Human Rights – they’ve done enough damage already in this government with TU legislation amongst many others.

  229. defo says:

    Big mouth might have just struck again I hope.

    Moothie seems to have special access to Fife council social work records.
    A wee bit unsavoury really, using dead kids as ammunition.

  230. Almannysbunnet says:

    Most Brexit arguments are based on EU myths. Brexiteers and others who want to be better informed on how the EU really works could do worse than get the iScot magazine for June. They have printed the Wee Bleu Book which takes up half the magazine. Similar to what they did with the Wee Black Book last month.
    Excellent and informative reference.

  231. Grouse Beater says:

    Hooray!!! Britain – Top Corrupt Country in the World: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7dL

  232. cirsium says:

    thanks Taranaich (11.08) for the clarification.

  233. Petra says:

    @ Andy.D says at 7:42 pm …. ”Thanks Petra but all Jonny foreigners not just EU need to be stopped, we need to close the borders till we decide how we are going to control IMMIGRATION. I am old enough to remember controlled Immigration not a free for all and as for lots of brits going abroad to be forklift drivers and warehousemen for example utter hogwash. I have travelled the world with work and the only Brits I find abroad are Students taking a year out, grads in work or beach bums serving in bars. So the EU is brill my ass cant be reformed as Cameron showed or was this a side show who knows but I say again lets get out of this pishh. EU OUT for me.”

    Andy you’ve raised the immigration issue and it’s strange that this hasn’t been mentioned much on here at all. Strange in that it seems to be the over-riding issue in England and accounts, in the main, for the approximate 16 million ‘leave’ contingency. On the other hand not so strange because Scotland hasn’t been affected (schools, housing, NHS and so on) to the same extent, in any way at all, as in England.

    I agree with you that something MUST be done. It’s ridiculous that individuals, hundreds, thousands or even millions, can buy a cheap Ryanair / Jet2 ticket and land here from EU countries with no job lined up (and nowhere to stay).

    When people arrive at the airport they should do so because they’re coming on holiday and going home again or they have applied for and found work here. Like the US, Australia and so on: A points system that appertains to ALL people, the World over, not just a free-for-all from EU countries.

    I also can’t figure out how we’ve got 171,000 people out of work in Scotland (and constant dire redundancy threats by the Councils) but we are being told that we need foreigners to support our economy. Yes I can understand that we have a shortage of doctors and / or other professionals and require people from abroad to cover these appointments but we’re not just talking doctors etc here.

    Additionally a greater effort should be made in Scotland to identify ongoing employment skill deficits and 1st year secondary school pupils should be made aware of such well in advance of choosing subjects to study / leaving school and seeking employment, as is practise in countries like Australia. Adults should be retrained to fill particular posts such as is happening now with former oil workers being retrained as teachers.

    I’m sure my opinion will annoy certain individuals on here but well what can I say? I’m not a heartless ogre, far from it. I feel heart sorry for the needy of the World and spend a great deal of time, effort and money trying to alleviate their misery to some extent. I feel sorry for those who want to come here to better themselves but we have to get real, imo, as we can’t continue to cope with the sheer numbers. Better still the EU has to get real and soon.

    Oh and Andy I don’t agree with you when it comes to finding Brits abroad doing menial work only / no work. Fifty thousand plus Scots leave here every year, many in their twenties with degrees / qualifications, and become an absolute boon to their new found homes / countries: Our greatest asset …. our people …. our loss. We should be doing more to keep them here, especially as we’re being told that we have to attract young people to Scotland to support our aging population. Crazy.

    Some of the aforementioned points are being stymied of course, in particular in relation to employment, due to being shackled to Westminster who wont devolve it (I wonder why!), so Andy I’ll be voting to ‘Remain’ in the hope of getting our Independence ASAP and then will vote to ‘Leave’ if the situation in relation to the EU doesn’t improve greatly in the very near future.

    I’m posting this to highlight, to some extent, the situation in England. This video was taken 3 years ago. Since then the situation has escalated dramatically and the Police have been moving on vast numbers of foreign individuals from tourist sites in London and in other English cities. They move away, congregate elsewhere and then return. EU policy is doing no one any favours …. not us …. and certainly not them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVYHrSmgPDo

  234. Dr Jim says:

    @ Graf Midgehunter

    Everything you said, double, I keep telling folk the exact same thing, I lived and worked in Spain for years with my own business, everybody likes us Scottys, but I can’t say the same for the other lot even though there’s thousands of them living in Spain they’re not in the least number one on the popularity stakes

    Once all the nasty furriners realise who we are their expressions change big time

    That’s when the anti (you know who jokes) come out and in their language because they know most of the (other lot) never learn another language whereas us Jockys learn and fit right in

  235. Thepnr says:

    What is immigration or emigration other than a transfer of people from one part of the world to another part. That is all it is.

    So facing facts, yes the poorest want to move to the wealthiest parts. well there’s a surprise!

    The wealthiest want to keep the poorest out, another surprise unless they will ork for minimum wage.

    Truth is I’m not surprised at all and I doubt you are either, we are all potential migrants in some sense. I’m really not a tree hugger but I do believe in a fairer share of the wealth of the planet. That’s not how it is however, inequality is orse if anything in the poorer countries.

    I would like to see change, you know, a bit of balance.

    Truth is the West has exploited the East for as long as Scotland has been exploited by England.

  236. Petra says:

    @ Grouse Beater says at 11:44 pm …. ”Hooray!!! Britain – Top Corrupt Country in the World.”

    http://wp.me/p4fd9j-7dL

    Yeah brilliant article GB. I love it. Well done.

    @ defo says at 11:33 pm …. ”Big mouth might have just struck again I hope. Moothie seems to have special access to Fife council social work records. A wee bit unsavoury really, using dead kids as ammunition.”

    That’s her alright …. unsavoury…. and how long before she blames Nicola Sturgeon for this wee guys death? If not SNP Baad Dugdale …. ”see Nicola your named person policy doesn’t work” …. The one that she supported beforehand.

    And on this subject I was delighted to hear that these two evil monsters were found guilty. Tried to offload their horrendous, sadistic behaviour onto a 7 year old. Their cruelty and callousness just beggars belief. Too late for poor wee Liam but hopefully, even after all the hellish trauma the two older boys have suffered, life will improve greatly for them now.

    Named person? Liam’s baby sitter reported her concerns to the Social Services over a year before he died. This was followed up by nursery staff reporting their worries too a year before he died following him attending their nursery for 3 months. He was then removed from the nursery by his ‘parents’. Three (BRIGHT) red flags at least: That we know of. An additional year of profound misery and wretched physical and psychological suffering for a two year old because someone wasn’t doing their job properly (and that included a paediatrician). Someones head should roll.

  237. K1 says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood, Lochside, Thpnr

    Chapter 6,

    IanB’s Epic ‘The Bawbag’ continues…

    Toby’s back was aching from the constant bending over….’rubbish doesn’t pick itself up’ he muttered under his breath, then he suddenly remembered the poop scooper from the tall policeman, he’d been startled by that encounter in the street, that gift had provided him with hours of pleasure since, he mused inwardly…as he lowered himself one last time after a sweltering day in the smog filled heat…

    He’d scavenged these streets daily for years in search of sweetie wrappers, fag ends and of course the ubiquitous shits, but his real joy if he was really lucky, was to come across an empty Carlsberg can. He lived in the pricey streets of London and it was rare to come across this brand, today was one of those days. He’d caught the glint of a squashed can at the side of a lamppost, ‘Ha!’ he exclaimed making a bee line for it, hoping it was the Carlsberg and not another coca cola can!

    As he rapidly approached his prize he wasn’t aware of the two men who quite suddenly appeared as if form nowhere. One from behind, the other right in front of him. So focused had he been on scouring the ground, that he hadn’t been watching were he was going…and to his enduring shame, as he would later come to relive over and over again…the searing memory burned forever into his mind, he’d inadvertently entered into a side gate of Buckingham Palace and was now faced with the shocking apparition of two of the biggest and broadest Coldstream guards locking him between them and blocking his path to his precious find.

    As his eyes finally lifted above the parapet of his own narrowed focus he saw quite clearly that he’d made it all the way to the Queen’s living quarters…as he was approaching he’d seen there was more than one can, there was a veritable pile of them, strewn amongst the rhododendron bushes beneath the Queen’s bedroom window.

    The guards quickly lifted him and turned him about quick marching him off the premises telling him in threatening tones that he must never repeat to anyone what he had seen this day…the Queen liked a swally o’ the Cally…a lot.

    ’Clean for the Queen’…suddenly took on an altogether more sinister and dangerous meaning for Toby….

  238. Grouse Beater says:

    Petra: Yeah brilliant article GB. I love it. Well done.”

    Many thanks. Two readers and both say the same thing. Must have it right at last.

    🙂

    I’m off to corrupt London, will take a hard hat and reinforced Jock strap, and then Exeter… might keep travellin’ ‘cross the Channel … and not come back.

  239. Eckle Fechan says:

    Looks like a Red Cross field Hosp about to be bombed by bore-a-fuck drones Toby, to make way for a free school where you can ecourage your countrymen and women’s children to apply for the re-education programme. Good luck with that. One nation.

  240. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Spain will not hesitate to veto Scottish fast-track membership.”

    It has already expressly stated that it wouldn’t.

  241. Meindevon says:

    Grouse Beater….I’m off to..Exeter. Enjoy, it’s a lovely city. Ok, it’s not Scotland but you can’t have everything! ?

  242. Rock says:

    Bob Mack,

    “@Rock,

    It may seem ,or you may wish the issue of sovereignty to be semantics,but it has a solid legal base”

    The treaty of union also has a “solid legal base”. How many times has it been broken? What have we been able to do about it?

    There was a “solid legal base” for unseating Carmichael. What happened?

    The only “solid legal base” in this rotten to the core UK state is the protection of the establishment.

    In practice, a Scottish dog might be “sovereign”, but a Scot is most certainly not.

  243. Rock says:

    Notice that Robert Peffers has disappeared because he can’t defend his repeated claim that the UK is not a state.

  244. Fred says:

    Rock, ye don’t hauf write some pish kid! 🙂



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