Without honour in their land
This is the entrance to the municipal offices of Stirling Council (“Scotland’s Heart”), visible from the monument to William Wallace that looks over the former Scottish capital. The figures guarding the doorway are Wallace and Robert the Bruce.
The building’s flagpole is flying a Saltire (specifically the city’s own modified coat-of-arms version, which features a Lion Rampant and explicitly represents the Battle of Bannockburn), as you might quite reasonably expect it to.
Enjoy this patriotic sight while you can. It might have barely 48 hours left.
That’s because on Thursday, this is happening:
In the 2012 local elections, the SNP won more seats in Stirling than any other party (gaining two seats and overtaking Labour for first place), but the council is controlled by an alliance of Labour and Conservatives, who came second and third respectively and hold a total of 12 seats compared to 10 for the SNP and Greens.
(Earlier this year, the council’s Labour provost ordered that the Union Flag be flown at half-mast from the building to mourn the death of Margaret Thatcher.)
If all the Labour and Tory councillors back the joint motion (signed for the Tories by Callum Campbell and Labour by Danny Gibson), the flag of Scotland will be taken down and replaced by the Union Jack – or as Stirling’s Unionists would have it, the emblem of “our country”, singular. The logical conclusion that those people do NOT consider Scotland to be their country will therefore be impossible to avoid.
The council’s members and their published contact details are:
Corrie McChord (Labour, council leader)
Mike Robbins (Labour, Provost)
John Hendry (Labour)
Johanna Boyd (Labour)
Christine Simpson (Labour)
Danny Gibson (Labour)
Margaret Brisley (Labour)
Violet Weir (Labour)
Martin Earl (Conservative)
Alistair Berrill (Conservative)
Callum Campbell (Conservative)
Neil Benny (Conservative, used to have a different view)
If you contact them, be polite.
Even if you wince at ‘Braveheart’, it’s hard not to see a scene in which Scotland’s most legendary warriors for independence cower below the Union Flag as a crass and contemptuous insult to every Scot. We await the outcome of the vote with interest.
That strikes me as an act of borderline insanity. For purely pragmatic reasons you’d think they’d leave things as they are even if for no other reason that to avoid riling people up. It’s unlikely to get any undecided to vote NO and might be likely to tip people over the other way as it looks provocative.
I think if the council does that it can be turned into a propaganda victory for the SNP, who can confirm unionists are so scared of scotland even existing as an entity with its own laws, education and health services that the saltire which belongs to all scots of all political persuasion effectively needs to be banned.
Back to 1745 it seems in Stirling where any matters Scottish were dealt with severely.
Voting to remove the saltire will have repercussions; seems with the Northern Ireland reference to be a call to arms for protestants, the union jack has symbolism for catholics.
My own daughter who lives in Northern Ireland would not wear an Oxford Uni top I bought her in her home town as it had a union jack on it and she did not want to be ridiculed or worse, beaten up.
There is no mention the saltire is to be removed. That is the outcome but they have not got the balls to say they want it removed as it is Scottish.
So much for the premise that there’s any difference between Labour & the Tories.
I’m sure Campbell and Gibson are “proud Scots”.
So, look dear Scottish Labour party supporters, here is what YOUR party is doing. Hand in glove with the Tories. How low will Labour go before you accept that Labour in Scotland no longer represent you, nor do they represent Scotland.
Truly the Labour party are now finished in Scotland. Let us make sure somebody films them removing Scotland’s flag, so people across Scotland can know just what utter tory lapdugs Labour in Scotland has become.
Tory/Labour, Labour/Tory, in Scotland they are one and the same.
Shame on them.
If I was able, my climbing gear would be getting dusted down!
Unbelievable ! that’s all.
The Tartan Tory in me sees nothing in the councils but an expensive,unnecessary and obstructive layer of bureaucracy.Does it matter whether a Labour or SNP group collect your bins?
These people, voting to make a political point of one-upmanship, are bringing great shame first to the city of Stirling and it’s people then to the memory of two of Scotland historic heroes and to Scotland as a whole. Where are the people of Stirling? Let their voices be heard, take too the street and demand that this nonsense not be allowed in their names.
Sad sad day when imbeciles rule our land
Oh dear!!! There is none so blind as those who cant see or in Stirling Councils case dont want to see.
Can only see this backfiring spectacularly in favour of the SNP.
Ive noticed in the picture that they have all opened their windaes to let the fucking stench out!
The day after the referendum I want the same person who instructs the change over, filmed when it’s reversed. 🙂
Why stop there! They may as well chisel down the two statues as well and replace them with something more appropriately british.
For me their reference to Glasgow City Council and it’s research into the potential impact on public services, in an independent Scotland, is interesting.
I know it was delayed, did it ever appear?
Stirling council agenda. P5 Item E, paras 5&6. You coudnae make it up.
It reads as if it were written by the OO.
Time to make the tories extinct in Scotland
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake!
Campbell and Gibson, White Feathers for them both! A disgrace to Scotland and the UK!
At the end of the day its just a flag. If this should do anything it should highlight the alliance. Can’t be good for labour…
That Dirty Dozen aren’t part of the 62 per cent who think they’re Scots then?
Not so long ago,Angus Council was controlled by a Unionist Alliance.They decided to remove the Saltire from council properties.Public anger was palpable across political allegiances and the council had to compromise.We now have an SNP council.I reckon people in Stirling will be keener to keep the Saltire than their council.
This at the same time as introducing pay cuts and increased hours for the council workers, who have subsequently gone on 1 day strikes. Maybe they are trying to alienate as many people as possible before next September?
The key phrase is ‘fought and died under for 300 years’
What about the previous 700 odd? What about the men and women of Stirling who were unlucky enough to be born before the blessed union? Do they get no symbol?
But seriously, all this ‘flegs’ business really annoys me – on both sides.
More importantly I thought it was for the electorate to make up its mind not some overpaid, overweight, over opinionated erses
Tory money + labour greed = The United Kingdom. nae place here for the NATIVES.
I’m sure Campbell and Gibson are “proud Scots”.
DAMN RIGHT. They love their country (Scotland, I mean – ignore that PDF up there)
I think we’ll see more of this as the referendum draws nearer, councillors of the unionist tri-partite will become more partisan and more Union Jackery will follow, no doubt they’ll try and do their best to hinder the YES campaign on their turf as much as possible. Yet, they will blame the independent movement, and particular the SNP, for being tribal.
Note to the councillors: The Saltire has a much older and prouder tradition in representing this country than the butcher’s apron! History of Scotland did not begin in 1707!
The Tories setting the agenda for Labour in Stirling fits nicely with the Tory PM instructing A. Darling to debate with the FM.
Scottish New Labour are Tory surrender monkeys. They are better together. SLAB are not prepared to defend anything – even their own traditional beliefs.
Ironic that the first SNP MP was Dr McIntyre, who later became Lord Provost of Stirling (I think). What a cringing attitude to take, even by the standards of today’s Scottish Unionism. Proud Scots indeed…
Those of us with offices on a main street in Stirling will have saltires in our front windows from tomorrow until further notice.
If it wasn’t for Austerity, I think a great idea would be to invest in painting the kerbs of Stirling a smart red white and blue…
Bloo Tory/Red Tory cabal, two cheeks of the same backside. Lets make both of them history for good on the 14th of September 2014.
Rank, crass, pointless stupidity. They’ll come to regret this.
I am on this. Letter writing hat on. This is my hometown. Stirling has a proud Scottish heritage and to my eyes has always rejoiced in it. To have it manipulated for petty political gain in insulting.
Came across this a blog from a Stirling SNP councillor, seems the flag debate was an issue in April too to do with Thatcher, but also interesting re other matters for their meeting on Thursday.
http://www.macphersonsrant.co.uk/page/2/
Let them have their last fling, if they dare. The elections will be round soon enough and the electorate will, if they choose, have the last laugh.
Get mad, which is understandable, go along to the public meeting where the decision has to be made, but get even later on. They already see the writing on the wall I think.
OT, but on topic.
One of my windows is quite high up above a commuter route into Dundee. I thought an illuminated ‘YES’ might cheer folk up on their way into work on dark winter mornings. 🙂
I see you can get LED strips. Can these be cut and connected to form the word ‘yes’?
“They [Catalonia] say they want to become an independent state, but they’ve got language, and culture, and all these sort of things. We don’t have any of that.” Lord George Robertson.
We are witnessing Scottish identity being dismantled and discarded. Maybe Robertson was making a statement of intent?
These two councillors have no imagination. Have they considered dismantling the Wallace National Monument, the Bannockburn Victory memorial, old Stirling Bridge & Stirling Castle? For fairness, these powerful symbols of Scottish nationhood should be replaced with British symbols.
I suggest a mock concentration camp modelled on 1890’s South Africa to be erected where Bruce’s statues currently stands in Bannockburn.
Old Stirling Bridge could sport a Cromwell tank from WW1 parked over the mutilated bodies of German soldiers with its gun pointing aggressively towards Bridge of Allen to show tourists how it was done in the old days.
Abbey Craig would be a fitting vantage point for a 75 ft. high bronze statue of Queen Elizabeth II of England wearing white gloves & a nice hat that she enjoys showing off at Ascot.
We could even cock our hats to Mount Rushmore & have a 3 D relief of all of the members of the House of Lords wearing ermine carved into the side of the old volcano that was once the foundations of Stirling Castle.
Might lose them a lot of visitors… this nasty little political point that they make out of hatred.
this cannot be allowed to happen,Lhese labour and tory ("Tractor" - Ed)s should be ashamed of themselves.in reply to naebd “proud Scots” are you having a laugh. ("Tractor" - Ed)s !!!! SAOR ALBA 2014
This is not a saltire that is being removed or the Lion Rampant but Stirlings’ own flag and emblem for a blatantly political gesture…madness.
It really is a huge statement these folk are making.
I’m British, not Scottish.
@arealscot
Yes. He’s having a laugh.
Gonnae no do that T thing – unless you fancy being used (yeuch) by Blair McDougall?
http://wingsoverscotland.com/at-last-the-big-questions/#comment-588664
Imagine the uproar if this was the other way round, and a Union flag was being replaced with a Saltire. The MSM would be up in arms. On a (sort of) related note, I really wish this “300 years” argument from tradition would be dropped; slavery, no gay rights, no voting rights for women and genocide by the UK went on for a lot longer than that and yet we don’t claim they should come back because of tradition.
In 1313 the English flag flew above Stirling and we all know
how that worked out!
“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Seriously? I know that Northern Ireland is rarely, if ever, at the forefront people’s minds in Scotland and the rest of the UK, but has the mayhem here caused by arguments over the Union Flag not even had a fleeting thought? Here’s a taster for those of you who don’t follow these things:
http://sluggerotoole.com/?s=fleg
@arealscot
Much better!
So, ‘Parcels of Rogues’ still exist in Scotland – how disgraceful! Maybe that should read parcels of arseholes! Apologies, that is insulting to arseholes!
Imagine what it will be like after a no vote,we’ll have Thatcher and Lizzie’s coupon’s carved Mount Rushmore like into Dumyat or maybe Helix Kelpie style sculptures of Walter and Ally standing Colossus like over the Govan faithful as the new Highland regiment formed to quell dissent amongst rebellious yes voters frolics round the pitch.In all seriousness though,a truly shocking decision and one I feel may backfire.
“This is not a saltire that is being removed or the Lion Rampant but Stirlings’ own flag and emblem”
Actually, as you’ll see if you follow the link mentioning Bannockburn, it’s all of those. Stirling’s flag/coat of arms is a Saltire with a Lion Rampant on it and symbols representing the famous battle for independence.
The motion does note that what it calls “the council flag” will be flown from another flagpole. But the symbolism of putting the Union Jack above Wallace and the Bruce is hard to miss.
Thanks for the article Stu, can’t believe that they’re spending time and money on flags when the Council is trying to cut the wages of their employees, and cutting back on many services.
This unholy alliance in Stirling between Labour and the Tories is all one sided – the Tories with only four Councillors always seem to be the tail waving the Labour dog.
I’ve just emailed my Labour Councillor in Dunblane (politely!) reminding him of which flag the people of Dunblane fly every time Andy Murray is in a tournament, and other civic occasions. (Hint – there’s not a lot of red in it!)
It is however a Saltire being moved for union flag,no mistaking what this says.
These parish pump no-marks do indeed give us a foretaste of what will happen after a No vote. Scotland will be extinguished, culturally and historically.
Hell, they’ve already said Scotland was extinguished in 1707!
im in stirling, embarrasing
This in the same document that condemns the “UK Government’s barbaric” bedroom tax. I am beyond apoplectic. The sheer antagonistic ignorance is beyond doubt one of the most ill-thought out stances that could be taken.
Stirling Council need to be reminded that those watching this will remember after the referendum. These people will have to appear in public when they stand for re-election. I anticipate some very awkward questions. In the meantime, can we arrange to photobomb then with a Saltire every time they appear in public? That could be fun. 🙂
Please, someone FILM THIS !
The lowering of the Saltire to make way for the Union flag will add hundreds, if not thousands to the Yes vote.
What flag obsessed Unionists forget is that the overwhelming majority of Scots describe themselves as Scottish only and find it hard to love the Union Jack. The Union flag makes most Scots feel uncomfortable. It has far too much of an association with the Billy Britain Thatcher Tories version of the UK. Regardless of support for independence most people would find this petty, pointless and unnecessary. Sticking Union Jacks on things is the worst kind of plastic Nationalism. No one believes in it. It just alienates people.
The moral of this unsavoury episode? An alliance with the Conservative and Unionist Party is always corrupting.
I used to admire the Liberal Democrats but thanks to Clegg and Alexander I now despise them.
I used to respect the Labour party but thanks to Better Together I now view them with contempt.
Stirling used to be one of my favourite places. I won’t be visiting it in the near future.
So, the 2011 Census showing just 18% felt Scottish and British means nothing? Seems that the British nationalists are baiting those who favour independence into some sort of reaction.
This story needs to made known to as many as possible. I will be carrying my ipad around a lot more, and I will be showing as many as I can the sort of unionist shenanigens that goes on unreported by MSM.
WHAT! I cant really print what I think of councillor Campbell and Gibson. **!!@~~X.
Except to say typical of the Tories and Labour to do such a despicable deed.
The way to ensure the Saltire flies over all our public buildings is to vote yes in 11 months time.
@Yesitis
Was it not 62% of the people here felt purely Scottish? Therefore, would not 38% feel both?
Only one word for these people, scum…
I wonder where I can find a few hundred saltires and put the up all over the town. If a reader can supply them or point me to a good source, I’ll pay for them.
Rev. Stu, Would it be possible to organize a demonstration in Stirling
on the lines of Save Our Saltire?
Added symbolism to this is that Stirling Council, by placing the Union flag above the Saltire are basically making a public declaration that they are elevating and endorsing the following; Endemic Poverty, an end to free Health Care, an end to free Education, Trident missiles, No Jobs, lack of Housing. They are all Ultra Right Wing, free market Neo Conservatives, because that is what the Union Jack stands for. It’s the flag that all the Right Wing Westminster Parties wrap themselves in, the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems. I hope Stirling Council are proud. Well I’m a progressive Scot and I’m associating the Saltire with socially just thinking. I’m a better person than any of them because of it. Reject Better Together, be a Better Person. Vote Yes.
Strangely enough I find their honesty refreshing.
When they say, “Council resolves to stand up for the symbols of our country by flying the Union Flag…”, they declare their country to be Britain not Scotland by almost literally nailing their colours to the mast.
Rather than the standard preamble of, “I’m a proud Scot…”, which is the opening line for any “No Scotland” speech they’ve declared that they’re British not Scottish and Scottish symbols are second rate and to be subordinate to British ones.
They avoid the falsity of the rest of the “No Scotland” campaign who cover their material in Saltires and with the joint signing Labour have finally come out and delcared that they’re British nationalist brothers in arms with the Tories.
O/T but relevant I think?
Are we so petty and narrow minded in Scotland that we cant even promote our flag?
Remember the Grampian Fire Brigade Saltire fiasco.
http://news.stv.tv/north/202679-fire-chiefs-remove-offensive-saltire-from-engines-after-complaints/
Talk about a “Fifth Column”
This looks to be an extraordinary statement from Stirling Council to make at this pivotal time. Have these unionists not realised that the NO core vote is absolutely snagged in the doldrums with no movement in either direction, in other words it is as big as it will ever get and may well be solid enough not to lose votes – but, it is never going to overtake YES in these conditions.
YES is growing daily – spot the difference?
This referendum battle will be fought and won by converting the undeclared DKs and it must be obvious that if the union argument was attractive to any DKs they would have declared for NO philosophy from the start. The union argument is already caustically repellent to the undecided and has no possibility of changing tack, its course is irrevocably set.
Messrs Campbell and Gibson are literally playing handball with a live political grenade with these gesture politics. Still as the haplessly hopeless Rennie would offer -‘ whit can ye dae, eh?’
Carry on chaps!
Stirling – isn’t that where they’re supposed to be having the Armed Forces day thing?
Let’s flag bomb their meeting!
whatever filthy rag they put up there will come down soon enough. Meantime, if you feel the need for payback there is always this…
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B007ZPZU0I/ref=redir_mdp_mobile
Words fail me.
These morons are not fit to look upon the statues of the two heroes that grace the front of that building. I hope they hang their heads in shame as they pass them.
They have voted to disgrace our national flag – the oldest national flag in the world (1,180 years in continual use) They insult every Scot alive today, regardless of their political allegiance. They bring shame on themselves by disregarding the deeds of every Scot who fought and died under our flag for the 875 years preceding the Union.
“Was it not 62% of the people here felt purely Scottish? Therefore, would not 38% feel both?”
No. 62% said “Scottish”, 18% said “Scottish and British”, everyone else said something different. (eg just British, or not Scottish OR British, or whatever.)
A wee question. Are the council not obliged to consult with their constituents before a decision like that can be carried out
speechless. I’m actually really saddened by this. It’s actually playing out like a bad movie. Good has to win in the end though. It’s a just cause, and its the people, not the ‘governors’ that should prevail.
Right, that’s it. I’ve had enough of this shite.
Stirling is my council, though I live about 25 miles from the town. I have a wee shop that will be vacant December to Easter, so I will either donate it to YES Scotland for a few months or fill it myself with articles from Wings and others.
My only problem will be getting volunteers to staff it. Failing that, I will plaster the windows with facts on independence. Just let one of these councillors come near me telling me I can’t (like they did with the guy up Argyll way)
“Stirling is my council, though I live about 25 miles from the town. I have a wee shop that will be vacant December to Easter, so I will either donate it to YES Scotland for a few months or fill it myself with articles from Wings and others. My only problem will be getting volunteers to staff it.”
Drop me a line nearer the time and I’ll put out a call on Wings.
O/T
Watching reporting Scotland tonight and they seem to be playing down the Defence Secretary’s visit to Edinburgh. They are not even going to discuss the subject this evening on Newsnight Scotland. Very strange. I think they know it just increases the YES vote.
Also noticed a new tactic they seem to have come up with. When they are reporting a bit of a downbeat story, they get a reporter to come into the studio and explain the story to the viewers with the sad puppy dog eyes, its as if the are about to tell you they have just ran over your favourite pet cat.
I do honestly hope the majority out there see right through this state sponsored nonsense.
“Stirling – isn’t that where they’re supposed to be having the Armed Forces day thing?”
Yes.
http://www.clans2014.com/bannockburn-and-armed-forces-day-a-clash-or-conspiracy/
“Rev. Stu, Would it be possible to organize a demonstration in Stirling
on the lines of Save Our Saltire?”
Before Thursday evening? Tall order.
This seems to be a particularly rabid form of British Nationalism. Worrying! !!!!!
They may take our flags….
YES Scotland
“I wonder where I can find a few hundred saltires and put the up all over the town. If a reader can supply them or point me to a good source, I’ll pay for them.”
What size? You can get 5ft x 3ft ones here for £1.77 a pop:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Special-Offer-Scotland-National-Andrew/dp/B000V94H18
Only option,buy a Saltire flag and fly it outside your house.
I bought a wee one on ebay £3.45 free p n p.
Right enough Rev. Stu, bit short notice but I just feel so bluidy angry about this
How dare they!
In other council news, interesting move from Moray on empty second homes.
http://archive.is/Xttx5
Shinty – May be able to help out, or at least put you in contact with someone who can – contact me – click on my name.
@ Callum
5′ X 3′ £1.50 each:
http://www.sportsdirect.com/national-flag-750665?colcode=75066512
A campaign could be started to find Stirling Council’s spine, as was started in Inverness-shire after Wimbldon when the councillor, James Crawford made a complaint against Alex Salmond for flying the Saltire, and behind David Cameron.
He said it broke Holyrood’s code of conduct for MSPs, he wanted Alex censured and to resign.
It was a Facebook movement called, Help Cllr Jim Crawford find his spine.
It became very successful.
I think this is kind of a odd thing to do when there is a substantial number of people in the don’t know, or soft Nos category. As Barontorc says this is very unlikely to win over the don’t knows. I think we can take it as a given that the No campaign are going to ramp up British nationalism to an unprecedented degree in the next 11 months or so before the referendum. Can’t see it gaining much support but there you go. After all what use is it having nuclear weapons, and a seat on the UN Security Council, when food banks are increasing in number?
Will they demolish the Wallace monument next? What would Bruce and Wallace make of these Cooncilors? Short work probably.
Re saltires if you want them from a Scottish based company
http://kiltmakers.co.uk/products/scottish-gifts/flags/saltire-flag
Come on folks, there is an easy solution!
Minisaltire
Saltire with everything.
I’m noticing there seems to be some problem with using the word “("Tractor" - Ed)”. Is that a Wings thing or just general advice?
I ask because these councillors are surely ("Tractor" - Ed)s to my mind.
Strange – a post of mine here has disappeared.
Labour and Tories – two interchangeable faceless neo-conservative monstrosities. I hope they get their just deserts at the next elections. They have embarrassed and shamed no one but themselves. For the Tories to do this is no great surprise but for Labour to acquiesce to this…Grima Wormtongue would be ashamed to consort with them. SLab are the Tartan Tories.
O/T but linked to mention of armed forces day in Stirling 2014 – “only a moron would ‘celebrate’ war”
Jeremy Paxman’s summation of David Cameron’s description of WW1 events next year.
“Strange – a post of mine here has disappeared.”
Anything that’s been deleted recently has been for a Rule 6 Infraction:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/about/
If Tories wi’ Labour ban the Saltire
From flying oe’r Stirlin toon
While 62 per cent of us are Scottish first
So the Union flag’s the one that should be doon.
Fly higher – Saltire
Proudly above a Stirling sky –
Scotland’s flag must not be lowered
By a “parcel o’ rogues” –
When you and I
will sing –
Fly higher, Saltire! Saltire!
Scotland’s flag must not be lowered –
We’re its Guardians – YOU and I!
“I’m noticing there seems to be some problem with using the word “("Tractor" - Ed)”. Is that a Wings thing or just general advice?”
It’s generally an unhelpful and counter-productive word to be slinging around. But this is a case where it’s awfully hard to exercise restraint.
This is the council that once upon a time provided us with Jack McConnell. Seems the standard of councillor has deteriorated further in his party since his day.
Anything that’s been deleted recently has been for a Rule 6 Infraction
My gast is flabbered, I must say.
For ("Tractor" - Ed) – substitute “parcel o’rogues” – weel kent here
they will join the hall of infamy as time goes by
In my view to tear down a Saltire to fly the Union flag is an incredibly foolish move in a country where 62% feel wholly Scottish. The important thing is that as many people as possible know about this and that it was a joint Labour Tory move. It won’t hurt the Tories because nobody expect any better of them but for Labour to do this with the Tories is suicide.
In short, I don’t like this but on the other hand it is a gift
After 1700 years,Buddhas fall to Taliban dynamite. After 833 years, the Saltire falls to a Unionist cabal.
Let the people speak.
Ah Say let them do it.
Never interrupt an enemy in the process of making a mistake (N. Bonaparte)
Just shows how petty they are. How’d what to trust them running anything?
Council meetings are open to the public, aren’t they?
Anyone in Stirling able to pop along and give us a report?
Thanks for the heads-up, Stuart. However, I am loathe to spend my time trying to save unionists from making fools of themselves. If they vote this through, it will be well and truly Beyond the Cringe.
They are doing a great job for the “Yes” Campaign
not only did our flag lose its national identity when swallowed up into the Imperial War Flag they now want to remove it altogether!
“Council meetings are open to the public, aren’t they?”
Yes, including this one.
The Taliban blew up two statues of Buddha in Afghanistan a few years ago. I wonder how long those two statues will last outside the Stirling Council offices?
Bubbles,
‘Traitor’ is such a pejorative word. It designates someone who deliberately serves the interests of a nation other than his own. I sincerely believe that most Scots unionists are just misguided or misinformed. Over decades they have been conditioned into believing that government by London is natural and desirable.
Surely such people should be engaged with rather than condemned? We need to convince them that they are wrong. Even the governing group on Stirling Council!
“My gast is flabbered, I must say.”
Them’s the rules. I don’t have all day to tidy up people’s comments AND produce the site, so you can pick one or t’other. There was lots of warning, and I got fed up with nobody listening.
Firstly – Danny Gibson is, as far as I know,no relation of mine!
I’m rural, but Stirling is my local council. To say that this makes me both angry and ashamed would be an understating of how I feel. I’ve never voted Tory, but in the past have once or twice voted for Labour – purely as an anti-Tory tactical vote in UK elections. I will NEVER vote for them again in ANY election, even in an independent Scotland. Labour – the party I have come to loathe.
This is a staggering proposal that can only serve to bring the council into disrepute. If ever there was a part of the country proud of our heritage it has been Stirling.
Presumably the letters page of the Stirling Observer will reflect the views of those paying the council tax, and the councillors’ salaries. And I don’t think it’s a JP production……..
This has to be the most crass proposal made to date, even for Better Together and Project Fear. But it will rebound, and it will rebound well beyond the environs of Stirling Council.
Disgraceful decision by these Tory?Labour ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s. I hope all pro-independence supporters in Stirling bombard these Britnat councillors with letters and e-mails to let them know their blatantly anti-Scottish act will not be forgotten come the next council elections! A noisy demo by the locals on the day outside the building when the Butcher’s Apron is replacing the Council Saltire would maybe also emphasise to these “proud anti-Scots” just what their constituents think of them and this arrogant act of British colonial supremacy.
“I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking. It cannot be so easily discovered if you allow him to remain silent and look wise, but if you let him speak, the secret is out and the world knows that he is a fool.”
Woodrow Wilson
( a great parable for getting the unionists to debate at any length , at any time, any where on the merits of the status quo)
Absolutely disgraceful.
“There is only one thing more useful in politics than having the right friends, and that is having the right enemies.”
Anonymous, Economist 375: 8432 (25 June 2005), p. 84
There’s an awful lot of windows in that photie that wee saltires could be superglued on tae.
There was lots of warning, and I got fed up with nobody listening.
I’m pretty sure that was my first offence, and was accidental. Ah well.
“‘Traitor’ is such a pejorative word. It designates someone who deliberately serves the interests of a nation other than his own. I sincerely believe that most Scots unionists are just misguided or misinformed.”
I agree with that entirely. However, taking down a flag comprising a Saltire AND a Lion Rampant AND symbols denoting Scotland’s proudest battle for independence, which flies above statues of the two most iconic figures of Scottish statehood, in Scotland’s ancient capital, and replacing it with a Union Jack, is an act of such extraordinary and obvious provocation that it’s hard to put it down to innocent thoughtlessness.
(Particularly in the light of Stirling Council’s other actions recently.)
I’m still not going to use it. But it’s pretty tough to argue an opposing case in this particular instance.
“I’m pretty sure that was my first offence, and was accidental.”
THAT’S WHAT HITLER SAID ABOUT INVADING POLAND.
This is another reason independence is needed, for these people to realise Scotland is a nation with it’s own flag, the one that flies NOW, not the Union flag.
They should be scared, but they are playing into SNP and Yes voters hands if they try to deny the people of Scotland their identity, as the Westminster parties with the stuck on “Scottish” name tag will cease to exist post-independence.
They are Westminster parties and not solely Scottish and so must disappear, they cannot be the Scottish Labour/Lib-Dem or Tory party so what will they choose to do….pledge allegiance to the flag or the Scottish people?
Whatever they do can they be trusted with the government of Scotland especially when they have no experience of government as they have been told by their Westminster masters what to do for so long?
STIRLING – a little bit of England?
THAT’S WHAT HITLER SAID ABOUT INVADING POLAND.
My gast is well and truly flabbered now. What an extraordinary comment.
dont say that
They may as well just run up the white flag, right now. It’s the closest they’ll get to exhibiting the Positive Case for the Union.
its not stirling doing this, it is self serving individuals
Rev, or any of the readers on this site
Is there any friendly papers in the Stirling area, who are impartial and don’t have unionist leanings, who would report this outrage to the local Central area.
Surely if this was highlighted to such a paper, (say …something of the equivalent as the ‘West Lothian Courier’), then once the local people of Stirling and the surrounding area, read about this disgrace, then they will go nuts. This is almost the equivalent of the nonsense that took place in Belfast with the demanding that the Union Flag be flown at the City’s town hall. Remember the riots and protest on the streets of Belfast.
The beauty of this is, that the damage has already been done by our wonderful unionist pals! They’ve committed a cardinal error here by deciding to perform this act, without asking the people, of whom, they are meant to represent. If the locals get angry about this, then they will have no choice but to put the Saltire back up. Their jobs would seriously be on the line come local election time.
“Is there any friendly papers in the Stirling area, who are impartial and don’t have unionist leanings, who would report this outrage to the local Central area.”
The Stirling Observer might be interested, given the apparent change of heart of a Tory councillor.
http://www.stirlingobserver.co.uk/stirling-news/2009/10/07/saltire-will-fly-in-city-92391-24865266/
Rev,
I wrote that ‘most’ Scots unionists were misguided or misinformed.
That statement allows for a minority who may be still be described as ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’, ‘("Quizmaster" - Ed)s’, ‘ collaborators’ or other insulting names which indicate an intentional betrayal of one’s country.
I still believe that that minority is very small. I believe in the innate good nature of my fellow Scots.
Apologies mate. I’ve just leapt on 10 minutes ago, read your piece and flown into an incandescent rage! Flew straight to the comments field. If this is sorted …then this is utterly brilliant!
Just read the clip that you posted there too. Seriously, I would like to know the reason for the change of heart. Someone or something must have panicked them.
Brilliant news, Rev! Made my night! Cheers!!!
Trying to provoke methinks and looking for some ”nasty face of nationalism” headlines. Everyone deep breath in, aaaaand reeeeelax! BARSTEWARDS!!
Helpmaboab
Your a Saint! Bubbles and I are impressed. LOL. The last person I thought a Saint is Macart, a very reasonable man but has become a bit tetchy of late. Heaven knows what he will make of this.
“Just read the clip that you posted there too. Seriously, I would like to know the reason for the change of heart. Someone or something must have panicked them.”
I think you might be reading things in the wrong order…
(The Stirling Observer piece is from 2009.)
“I still believe that that minority is very small.”
I believe that it mainly comprises officials from the Labour and Conservative parties, so yes, I agree.
Daft question, Rev.
Does the Stirling Observer have this document that you posted here. I have no problem with emailing them and highlighting a link to this page if you want. That way, the guys at that paper, if they really want, can rip into these Councillors and give them hell, especially, since all the evidence is there.
It would certainly make other Scottish unionist councillors think twice before taking such an arrogant stand, believing they can just tear down our flags, and dismiss our heritage and history!
I’m just waiting for s Labour councilor in a tin helmet and chainmaille to peep out over the top shouting;
“I fart in your general direction”
A friend of mine in Invergowrie nurses what I have hitherto viewed as an irrational dislike of the Stirling local authority and all its works. He rarely goes there, but the mere mention of the place is sufficient to set him off on a rant about how the condition of the roads deteriorates as soon as you cross the boundary from Perth and Kinross, various planning policies, etc., etc. The thing is, too: he’s a sort-of-unionist (but I’m working on him).
I think I’ll mischievously feed him this story and see if I can tip him over into Yes territory.
Make no mistake this is an act of utter desperation. Its playing out as the British Nationalists last stand before the tide sweeps them away. I also hope news of this spreads like a ‘virus’ (eh Johann) over the internet and social media and as many folk as possible turn u[ to protest at said meeting of Stirling council leaving them in no doubt how the ground lies for those councillors in the real world. Disgusting people that insult our history and our pride. Our time is coming and no matter how much those councillors want to stick their fingers in their ears and kid on its not happening, this act proves that they do know. Lets get rid.
‘Call me Dave’ and ‘Bubbles’,
A Saint? I don’t think so. If I were I wouldn’t be participating here. I would be reading about the Seven Deadly Sins or the Four Noble Truths and growing my own vegetables. (organically)
I probably do have a naive belief in the open-mindedness of other people, though.
I’m quite happy with my view of the world.
Email sent to Stirling Observer asking them to condemn the removal of the Saltire purely for narrow political reasons.
Used the quote from councillor Benny in 2009: “The saltire should unite us rather than divide us, whatever our politics. The Saltire belongs to all of us.”
Helpmaboab
I agree with your view.
I’m not sure I’m ready to think rationally about this yet as it is such a blatant provocation, but I am very, very angry indeed.
Are they trying to goad some of us into rash, direct action to make us look like the villains?
I think so. Perhaps they will provide that reaction via a (literal) ‘false flag’ operation.
Now look here the councillor are only applying the rules. (tin hat on!)
http://www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Flying_Flags_in_the_United_Kingdom.pdf
and this The union flag will take priority.
the flying of flags from council buildings and arrangements for books ..
We had a fight about all this a few years back in Fife. As far as I can see both poles are the same height so it was a draw.
OK I’m watching Telly and it is the adverts what the feck is going on? Have the Tories led Labour up a hill and left them there?
Sorry my second link did not appear correct. I will regoogle it. Was a link to a PDF file from Lothians and Borders Council flag protocol.
From my good friend:
A beautiful bit of prose from (Dunblane) musician Dave WhittonIf Tories wi’ Labour ban the SaltireFrom flying oe’r Stirlin toonWhile 62 per cent of us are Scottish firstSo the Union flag’s the one that should be doon.Fly higher – SaltireProudly above a Stirling sky -Scotland’s flag must not be loweredBy a “parcel o’ rogues” -When you and Iwill sing -Fly higher, Saltire! Saltire!Scotland’s flag must not be lowered -We’re its Guardians – YOU and I!
Rash.
Maybe they’re under orders from DCPM.
And Mr Hammond’s “whipping shall continue” defence visit.
There may be more to Scottish Skier’s conspiracy than I thought.
Why don’t they consider flying a less provocative flag than the Union Jack? They could fly the CND flag given the majority of Scots do not support nuclear weapons? This would be unifying rather than divisive.
This is surely a reasonable compromise that the New Labour Tories could agree to?
Have just emailed the Stirling Observer. Given them details of what might be happening at the council buildings. Pointed them to the link here. Gave them my name and number.
I’ve pointed out that it would be an absolute disgrace that the Flag of Scotland is to be removed, considering that Stirling and the Stirling area is the heart and soul of Scotland. After all, it is at Stirling that Scotland defeated a full English Army that belonged to Edward the 1st; that the Wallace Monument is in the heart of this area; that Bannockburn is just a few miles away and that Stirling has the Scottish Royal residence in Stirling Castle.
If this small Stirlingshire area is not the heart and soul of our nation, then what is? And to see it’s national flag pulled down …well, your not bloody on!!
“However, taking down a flag comprising a Saltire AND a Lion Rampant AND symbols denoting Scotland’s proudest battle for independence, which flies above statues of the two most iconic figures of Scottish statehood, in Scotland’s ancient capital, and replacing it with a Union Jack, is an act of such extraordinary and obvious provocation that it’s hard to put it down to innocent thoughtlessness.”
Political prostitutes to the etablishment and not thoughtlessness.
(Erm … I did try to uphold the quality of WOS!)
Dropped them all a quick email. My god those meetings must be difficult to get through. Not a pretty face amongst them.
Let the Tory-Lab council fly the ‘bloody rag’, it will look even better when they are forced to take it down.
@Murray McCallum…
I think it is supposed to be a provocative move, to piss off the SNP and make a statement, knowing that nothing can be done about it. They flew the butcher’s apron when Thatcher died. They know what they’re doing, it’s an act of triumphant British Nationalism.
I don’t think this can be taken any other way than they’re taking the piss.
Danny Gibson and the Scottish Labour Party are clearly associating themselves with the Right Wing in UK politics. Symbolism is important in this debate. Conservative (both small and big C) thinking and politics is associated with the Union Flag. I actually think it’s a shame that the Union Flag has been dragged into the gutter. It deserves better, but let’s face it, the BNP use it for a political statement, the Tory Party use it. What is rather ironic is that Labour, at a UK level, are diluting it. Witness the washed out Union flag at the recent Labour conference.
I would challenge Labour in Scotland to come clean about their thinking and ideology. They are either Right Wing Neo Cons, with all the baggage that carries, or they are progressive left of centre, socially just individuals with a vision that puts a fair society at the core of their policies.
One of these positions sits in the shadow of the Union Flag. The other basks in the light of the Saltire.
The unionists play funny buggers (hope that’s OK) all the time with shoving their flag down our collective throats.
http://archive.is/BFByl
and this (trying again)
http://www.scotborders.gov.uk/…/id/…/flag_flying_and_books_of_condolence?
Sorry bout the song – cut and paste and it didn’t take the returns at the end of each line for some reason – tried to edit, but won’t let me due to more entries.
Sorry Dave!
I am embarrassed to share the same name as this Callum Campbell, who DARES to insult the nation and country his clan and namesakes have spilled rivers of blood for.
These are the death throes of councillors knowing full-well their time in office is coming to an end.
Jock Campbell
“My gast is well and truly flabbered now. What an extraordinary comment.”
It’s what we in the pro writing trade sometimes refer to as a “joke”.
Stirling, rise from your slumber.
Maybe the Tory-Lab council should replace the statues of Wallace and Bruce with Thatcher and Blair.
How would that look under a Union Jack flying over this little bit of England?
Win or lose next year, this shabby Con-Lab episode will not be forgotten.
It’s what we in the pro writing trade sometimes refer to as a “joke”.
It made me smile
Have just sent an email to the Stirling News too.
“Does the Stirling Observer have this document that you posted here.”
Not a scooby. I’d imagine a local paper would be up on council business, but I have no idea.
In fact guys, it might be a good idea if quite a few folk sent emails to the Stirling Observer and Stirling News (for the Stirling news, I emailed Nicola Hamilton at editorial@stirlingnews.co.uk)
The more we send, the more they may sit up, take notice, and question the councillors motives!
So, look dear Scottish Labour party supporters, here is what YOUR party is doing. Hand in glove with the Tories. How low will Labour go before you accept that Labour in Scotland no longer represent you, nor do they represent Scotland.
I have voted Labour in every UK general election since 1979. Until the 2011 election I had voted Labour in each Scottish Parliament election. The council election for Perth and Kinross last year was the first time I had voted against a Labour candidate in a local election.
My recent defections have only happened because 1) the SNP governent performed well in difficult circumstances from 2007, and 2) Labour’s offerings were mediocre.
My heart has still been with the party, however, and I had hoped to resume my support for them one day. If this motion is pushed through by the votes of the Labour group on Stirling Council, then my connection with Labour – including the levy I pay through my union – is over.
“I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking. It cannot be so easily discovered if you allow him to remain silent and look wise, but if you let him speak, the secret is out and the world knows that he is a fool.”Woodrow Wilson
(a great parable for getting the unionists to debate at any length , at any time, any where on the merits of the status quo)”
Unfortunately they seem incapable of debating.
It’s a pure disgrace..
Sometimes people just really disappoint you. Bet there will be at least a couple of labour councillors more concerned with re-election who will be absent rom the vote or maybe they might just find a spine and vote against it.
This is really rather silly, isn’t it? For all the reasons Rev mentioned: a Union Flag replacing the town’s own flag (removing Stirling’s sovereignty) which contained both the saltire (most ancient symbol of Scotland) and a Lion Rampant (royal standard of the Bruce dynasty and the Scottish kings), both symbols which were linked to a decisive battle for the independence of that town, castle and nation, and on top of that, flying triumphantly over the statues of two national heroes. It’s as ludicrous as that time they put the Wallace statue in a cage.
Putting aside anyone’s feelings about Scotland, nationhood and all, the duty of the Council is to represent its constituents. Have the constituents been at all consulted about something with such tremendous historical, cultural and symbolic value? I believe they should. If the people of Stirling vote in favour of replacing the flag of their own town (and nation) with that of the union flag, at least it would be democratic, as opposed to the mandate of the council.
These people are playing a silly dangerous game , they will rue the day , clowns bitter bitter clowns
Better than burning their flags is to tak them doon and bleach them white and run them up in a surrender, with still the stitching visible as to who is giving up
@Jock: I am embarrassed to share the same name as this Callum Campbell, who DARES to insult the nation and country his clan and namesakes have spilled rivers of blood for.
These are the death throes of councillors knowing full-well their time in office is coming to an end.
As a descendent of the MacDonalds, I’m with you, Jock (and th’ither Campbell that rins the site, whatsisface). At Bannockburn, the clans put aside their old feuds for a greater cause: nowadays, the clans put aside their old feuds in the name of common humanity.
Sunshine on Crieff
Well said! They do not deserve support from the voters at the moment.
Bill Dunblane:
You could always post it later.
Sometimes you need a slap in the face to get you motivated.
Hi Taranaich
Totally agree with you mate, and in part of your statement, you are absolutely correct. Has the council consulted their constituents? I’m going to take a stab in the dark, and say ‘…no’.
I know for 99% of us here, that we don’t put in anywhere near the work that the Rev does when it comes to Independence, but I feel this is something we can act on individually, and as a group.
If we email these papers, and hit them with quite a few letters, then the reporters may speak to the council, and say that there seems to be quite a lot of concerns over the removal of this flag. It might just stop the councils hand.
It might seem daft, but we could score a little victory here if we can stop it!
Councillors should stick to what they are good at… holding meetings and never making decisions! Disgrace.
anyone know if there’s grass outside that building?
I plan to go along on Thursday and plant a Saltire in it could be pretty cool if there were several hundred 🙂
Read this article with my jaw agape! Only worry is whether, like every other shocking move the Bitter Together party makes, they manage to suppress the so called free press. When do you think it will ever be reported in the media? Just after the Independence March that happened a few weeks ago? It’s going to be a stitch up unless we get the press reporting fairly!
Helpmaboab says:
Bubbles,‘Traitor’ is such a pejorative word. It designates someone who deliberately serves the interests of a nation other than his own. I sincerely believe that most Scots unionists are just misguided or misinformed.
Agreed. But there are certainly instances when you would struggle to think of a more apt word. Such as when Father of the Nation, Donald Dewar, knowing full well (unlike the rest of us) what was in the McCrone Report, told Scots that independence would result in Scotland becoming a ‘Bangladesh’. ‘Deliberately serving the interests of a nation other than his own’ seems to describe that kind of thing perfectly.
You can’t but think that post-Independence, when the Unionist lid comes of our past, that history won’t be kind to such people.
The idea of covering the entire building in Saltires amused me. Any action should be amusing, non-violent and a draw for the cameras 🙂
Taranaich,
Ha-Ha-Ha …I never of thought of that either. My nearest Scottish bloodline is also MacDonald! Oh dear …I am also in cahoots with a Campbell! That’s a good one! So far, that’s 3 MacDonalds in cahoots with a Campbell on Stu’s website! How many others MacDonalds is there. A Campbell leading an army of MacDonalds. Who would believe it??? Oh-dear-oh-dear!
Apart from that little joke, my actual surname is of Norman descent. I’m of good old French-Viking blood!
Not the first time that Unionists have tried to demote the Saltire.
http://www.forfardispatch.co.uk/news/local-news/saltire-and-new-angus-flag-will-be-pole-buddies-1-261181
I have emailed Council Leader
The only type of people I know of that prefer the Union Flag to the Saltire are the wearers of butcher’s aprons that like to take over our city centres on a far too regular basis. a minority that still sees itself as some sort pof representation of the establishmant.
It still annoys me immensly that on certain days of the year, the Saltire will be lowered from the flagpole outside my work and the Union Flag flown in it’s place. This is Scotland dammit. if another flag needs flown, let it be the Lion Rampant.
To be honest, guys. I would tone down on shouting the word ‘("Tractor" - Ed)’ about. I know that that is what it feels like, but seriously, start bandying that about, and it will only give the Unionists ammunition.
Just condemn the council for their actions. As I said earlier, post emails to the two papers. The more we do, the more we can try to stop this from happening. It will only take you two minutes, and believe me, you will feel better for it.
How good would it be, if we found out in a couple of days time, if the Rev reported a victory. Certainly makes going into the weekend a wee bit sweeter!
@andywightman
Stirling Council proposing to blow >50% of their common good fund on preparing a field for Armed Forces Day http://goo.gl/Wl5wRa
Apologies if someone pointed this out before (I’ve only skimmed the comments as I’m just in from work and heading to bed!) but…Haven’t we been saying that the BT lot are ashamed of the Union Flag..And that they should be using it since that’s what they are asking us to vote for?
Let them put it up. They’re nailing their colours to the mast. As it were.
O/T but as an Ayrshireman I’d just like to say well done to the Scottish Government for supporting Ayrshire jobs by taking Prestwick Airport into public ownership. No fuss, no messin, just did the right thing.
@craig an tuirc says
Why stop there! They may as well chisel down the two statues as well and replace them with something more appropriately british.
@Murray Mc Callum says
We are witnessing Scottish identity being dismantled and discarded.
You see, I read this article with the same anger as others and it wasn’t too much of a leap of my imagination to be reminded of the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan
God forbid that it comes to such in the next year?
I have just emailed the main council leader also. This is what I have said
Dear Mr McChord,
I have just read an article on the website ‘Wings over Scotland’ and it has come to my attention that Stirling Council intend to remove the Stirling Flag (which is basically the Saltire) from its council building.
To be honest, sir, I find this extremely disappointing, considering that Stirling is the heart and soul of the Scottish nation. If anything, the Union Flag should be flown from the small pole outside the front of the building, while the main flag of Scotland should remain in its current place.
As we are all proud Scots, it is only right that the Saltire Flag should be flown from the main building, and for several reasons.
1. Stirling is the centre of Scotland
2. Stirling has the ancient royal residence at Stirling Castle
3. Stirling is the battle site for the most famous victory by Wallace, Murray and an army of Scots against an Army sent by Edward the 1st
4. The Wallace monument sits at the heart of Stirling
5. Bannockburn is just a few miles away
6. Stirling, as said, is the heart and soul of Scotland.
For these very reasons, Sir, I ask you to reconsider what you are about to do. The Wings over Scotland website is extremely popular and has a vast readership (well more than the Scotsman Newspaper and the Herald put together. That means it has a huge reach far and wide, and it means that Stirling Council will be under the spotlight of all parts of the nation if this deed was to go through.)
Such an act will leave many people angry, bitter and disappointed with the council. It may even affect those who made this decision in council elections in the future too. This is not something that the council should do lightly in my opinion.
Personally, to keep the Saltire at the top of the pole above the main building, would show that the Council while trying to defend their belief in the Union, would not remove the main Flag of Scotland out of spite, even if it feels compelled too.
The referendum should be debated in a calm and reasonable matter, therefore to remove the Flag of Stirling from the main building could be perceived to be narrow minded and bitter.
I hope on reflection, that the council, pursues the correct course of action and leaves the Flag of Stirling at the top of the main building
A few thoughts, A few years back in our neighboring Clackmannanshire, an SNP controlled council started flying the Saltire from the top of the council HQ’s and a few of it’s halls, when Labour took control they removed them and from the council offices flew a made up Clackmannanshire council flag that looked like one of those cheap touristy towels you get. when the SNP resumed power the Saltire went back, however that flag decision from Labour wasn’t quite the first decision they made on taking power, the first was to reinstate their meals expenses package, that’s something else they don’t have any more!
As for Stirling Council’s decision, it smacks of someone trying to rub nationalist noses in it.
It will be interesting to see if they have the nerve to go through with it. but when that part of the meeting comes up it will be the chance for SNP members to make the speeches of a lifetime and they should grab it with both hands.
I wouldn’t count on the Stirling Observer too much, they usually spread the Labour view, they might be frightened of losing advertising revenue from the council, the best local paper in central Scotalnd for being even handed is the Alloa Advertiser, I speak from long experience of it.
But seriously, all this ‘flegs’ business really annoys me – on both sides. Kininvie, the flags are merely the weapon of choice for these unionists to make a stupid gesture, but if they get away with flags, then what’s next?
OK, I bet the Saltire will stay – if it is replaced by the Union flag I’ll put £10 in the Wings kitty.
Anyone up for it?
Fairly straightforward. Call to Stirling council to morrow to define what they mean as ‘country’ and to remind all councillors that they represent all of the taxpayers in their constituency – and that they should have the interests of all across the council area. Make the point that 2x Councillors – Campbell and Gibson – don’t get to disenfranchise any constituents. Follow up by email for proof of answer to be published. And send to the Electoral Commission. Let them know you’ll do the latter. Thanks for the heads up Rev.
When you are at it how about an email campaign to encourage Supermarkets to remove Union Jack packaging in 2014 as they should be neutral over the referendum otherwise we will take our business elsewhere.
We used have plenty of Satires on packaging but since the Queen’s Jubilee and Olympics they have all but disappeared.
I suppose, thinking about this, the Unionists are relinquishing the Saltire to us. They are giving up their Scottish heritage. A sacrifice I certainly would not pay.
Stirling council.
They do know where they live and who they represent?
But maybe not.
Just came in and read the above.
It would appear that Reinhard Heydrich is alive and well and living in Stirling Council.
Just bought 4 Saltires from Amazon.
They’ll be flying high and free as soon as they arrive.
All, rather than talking about stuff, let’s do something about Stuff. Yes.
Let them do this
What they are doing is making the Saltire a powerful political statement which is good for us. We should all m now be working outhow many Saltires we can actuall fly where we live. I can manage three (not counting saltires on windows)
Without honour, indeed, Stu.
This on a par with those who have gone before who deny our culture, languages and even the plaid.
@Dave McEwan Hill
Quite a few saltires flying at St. Catherine’s, Dave.
Well his petty, unthoughtful act will, if nothing else, inspire the good folks in Stirling who were sitting in the ‘don’t knows’ camp to realise just how uncaring the labour/conservative men who represent them are.
Yet another ‘own goal’ by the negative, cap doffing Scottish labour and conservative parties. If ever you doubted who their masters were, you now have all the proof you needed.
They are not ("Tractor" - Ed)s. To be a ("Tractor" - Ed) you have to first be recognised as belonging to the country you commit a treasonous act against. None of these men were ever Scotsmen. As this is not an act that any self respecting Scot would even contemplate.
Before you know it they will be burning books by Scottish authors, in the town centre. The Scottish virus has to be cured.
Roll on September 2015, when we can build a new country.
Vote with your heart.
Councilors so owned by their London bosses that they would remove an important historic local motif for a bit of political point scoring. Not only that actually, so owned by their London bosses that they will neglect the welfare and best interest of the people they are elected to represent because they are told to.
This is the thing with the liblabcon party, they are not just rotten and morally corrupt at the top, it is a membership requirement.
Was the Union flag flown at half mast for the destroyed lives and communities across the central belt of Scotland?
What a PR coup, I will photograph the result and post it online around the world where your names will become synonymous with arse – go on then you clowns.
The nature and role and even existence of local council power will be subject to review under a mandate given by the people of Scotland. Local authorities are atrociously unaccountable politically corrupt and have failed countless generations of humans depending on them. This stunt is what’s on offer from the No campaign. This type of political solution and response to the voice of the people. I pray to the god of my understanding that fear based politics are seen for the harm that it has been proven to create. Scottish culture abhors this. Be brave be true to ur self. Be true to ur children and friends and future generations. We can deliver an alternative to suit our needs and learns derive forward a more accountable political framework and eliminate cronyism and elitist Anglicised archaic approach to governing a small northern european country.
Stirling’s Quislings!
I feel a re-run of The Battle of Bannockburn coming on.
Where the brave army of “True Scots” are up against a majority unionist army who wish to impose their laws upon the good people of Stirling and surrounding areas.
The Scots never relented in their fight for justice against “Proud Ed Miliband’s Army” (& Co.)
and sent them homewards to think again.
There’s a song in there somewhere.
No need to be so damn condescending, Rev.
“I have just emailed the main council leader also. This is what I have said”
To be honest, I’m not sure citing this site is going to win you a lot of arguments with Labour politicians…
Have just sent a short note to the Stirling Observer politely expressing my disgust at the partisan naked politicking by Unionist Councillors
Here is another building that quite suits the Union Flag flying from it’s masthead.
http://gavin-bain.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/ministry-of-truth.html
My apologies, I have re-read the list and noticed that there are a few female cooncilers as well on that list. My last post then should have read ‘persons’ as opposed to men.
Rev. well done for bringing this to our attention. I’m constantly amazed at how you manage to keep going despite the drivel some of us post on here.
Excellent reply Gavin. Speaktomorrow words that I could express. The imagery, the message corroborated additionally with reference to the Orwellian and Burgess sages. Well done sir!
If this happens I will defo be voteing yes in 2014 I will not be ruled under a Union Jack I would rather spit on it ! Y can’t they leave things alone and stop meddling in everything that nothingto do with them angers me so bloody much
If you don’t know what a QUISLING is, go look it up in Wiki.
Alan Esson ,yesterday COSLA announced details of a commission to’ examine how local Govt might evolve regardless of the Referendum result.They hope it may become a blue print
Members of the commission will include
The local Govt organisation President plus 20 others including
Councillors from across Scotland
representatives from the voluntary sector
STUC General secretary
Prof Richard Kerley
The Editor of The Daily Record
Never allow a person to tell you no who doesn’t have the power to say yes. Eleanor Roosevelt
I won’t be writing to anyone about this because
1) I couldn’t remain polite
and
2) Never disturb your enemy…
I agree with those on here who’ve said this is an attempt at provocation. They’re trying to get pro-independence people to use certain words towards them, and to evoke Braveheart and all the rest – probably because that’s what they want Yes people to be, but unfortunately for them we aren’t. So don’t play into their hands.
Let them do it. Let them take the Saltire down and replace it with the union jack. Please someone film the moment they do it though. And make it go viral. Let everyone see it. No words are needed – the act speaks for itself. Let those who view it decide.
Personally I can’t stand the whole flags thing and Bannockburn, Braveheart etc doesn’t do it for me either. If the SNP were using these things I’d be turned off, seeing it as nationalism. Instead it’s the other side looking nationalistic, and trying to shut down, ban or deny us our history regading Bannockburn, Wallace, the Saltire etc really does grind my gears big style. So let them carry on as they are. But make sure as many people as possible see it.
They are a disgrace. Is this the same lot that have put the dampeners on the original Bannockburn 700 commemorations? I dont have the facts but it is my understanding that the original plans for the commemoration were similar to that of “The Gathering” in Edinburgh 2009. Now I believe that they are bringing in a load of English re-enactors and watered down the program of events. This has only served to piss off numerous Scottish patriot groups so much so that there is an alternative “Gathering” the week before the official commemoration being organised. Not to forget lots of very pissed off Americans who pre-booked their holidays to coincide years ago.
Only in Scotland! The manager of the National Trust for Scotland heritage site at Bannockburn, well I will be kind and I will just say that he can be a little less than helpful when it comes to the annual commemorations and I`d put money on which way he will vote in the referendum.
Molly, that’s good news however there is inadeqaute independence of thought and power to facilitate a truly open debate. most are attached or institutionalised to exisiting failing opaque corporate bodies. the study should be sponsored by the Scottish parliament executive. Who act solely as representatives of democratic process and with a mandate from the people. When was the last time anyone read local authority corporate reports that were not a glowing self seeking applause of their achievements whilst audit Scotland reports are cynically delayed and politicised. Cultural change is needed and evolution suggests there is a basis to grow from. I do not concur there is any basis to build upon I’m afraid!
I have been talking to my friends, quite a few of them are unionists but even they are having a laugh at the pish being put forward by the BBC.
This kind of nonsense being portrayed just reinforces the Yes position.
Try telling anybody Scottish, you can’t do that or you can’t do this and see what your answer will be, numpties the lot of them
Stirling will be the centre of armed forces day, and probably host the WWI celebrations instread of the homecoming. Just consider for a moment that even arch-British state mouthpiece Jeremy Paxman thinks the WWI “celebrations” are crass and not appropriate.
Let them wave their union jacks while they still can. It’ll help make sure they can’t after next year.
Let them put up their Union Jacks. It saves us the job of hoisting a “Vote Yes” flag.
After all, in a “true Scot’s” eyes. the two flags have the same outcome.
It reminds them that there is only one way to vote on 18th Sept 2014.
OT – I’ve just got round to watching the Hosie v Robertson debate. I can’t concentrate on Robertson because he’s reminding me so much of Stephen Colbert!
The truth has a well known liberal bias…
Alan Esson, I’m afraid when I read the article my heart sank! No where in the article could I see a mention of ordinary members of the public being involved. The same public who use and pay for the services so are ideally placed to say what kind of local Govt is required.
The Editor of the Daily Record, STUC,Councillors from across Scotland .
I could be too late to the party but may I suggest that the statues of Bruce and Wallace be given eye masks to hide them from this foolish act? much like wellington’s cone, it could become a ‘thing’.
Molly, I know. They are so far from reality and wrapped up on their little safe archaic narrow institutionalised mindset they ain’t got a chance to come anywhere near something akin to thought leadership. Those who might will be shouted down or worse…. the ragtrade ideas are taken forward to ensure the public media circus gets suitable sponsorship to reach out to avid daily record readership. I know!!! A quango … That will help. Hamster wheel commences again and again. No one has the balls to drive forward and champion dealing with what doesn’t work, why it does not work and ensure it doesn’t decend into finger pointing and leader less exercise. If I didn’t have a problem dealing with emotionally, morally land spiritually bereft people I’d get stuck in myself lol
Couldn’t agree more Cath, this is a cold and calculated attempt at provocation. What the opposition have done though is make an even bigger mistake than sending Hammond across the border to lecture us on defence. However if they think we’ll rise to the bait, they’ll be surprised by the fact that we won’t have to. I’m sure the people of Stirling themselves may have a word or two to say though about having their historic area chucked into this debate at the deep end for a cynical political exercise.
First and foremost they have just made a highly politicised declaration on behalf of all of the electorate of Stirling to change how the area presents and views itself, that includes those voters who support independence. I’m sure that’ll fly well at the next elections for those who marginally voted for SNP candidates. Secondly though they haven’t grasped what Stirling means to the independence vote and beyond. These eejits probably think its just about a battle and not what came about after. They’ve just slapped the entire Scottish electorate (Yes and No voter) in the face and not realised it. Mind you they’re not known for tact or indeed thinking. Alistair Darling must be wondering what he did to deserve that decision. With helpers like those who needs opposition. This lot have just provided every YES voter along the M8 from Glasgow to Edinburgh with all the motivation they’ll require to get out and canvas, work, vote on the day… you get the drift. Napoleon was right you know.
Just sit back and wait for the other shoe to drop next September.
The idea of covering the entire building in Saltires amused me. Any action should be amusing, non-violent and a draw for the cameras
Exactly! Protest vigourously but calmly. Fly saltires from every vantage point, photo-bomb Stirling unionists on every possible occasion, write protest letters, sign petitions, but do it in a way that brings credit to the cause.
Remember who we are and what the Saltire represents.
Careerist politicians.
It’s worth drafting and framing a kind letter to these careerist politicians, a letter to be sent upon the regaining of Scottish independence, a letter thanking them for their contribution.
If you don’t know what a Quisling is then ask Lord Robertson – he disna ken either.
Remember folks,
This is the kind of people that the BT parties want to hand the extra powers to after we vote No!
Yes reduce the powers of people who care about Scotland (SNP) and put these powers into the hands of people who don’t think Scotland is ‘their’ country.
Disgusting.
Cllr Berrill (Tory Group Leader) works as a “Radiation Safety Officer at HMNB Clyde”. Not much call for those or indeed Tory Councillors post-2014 methinks. Perhaps a flag with the radioactive trefoil symbol might be more appropriate and remind us all why we should vote Yes.
Stu,
You’re right, it might not go down well with Labour councillors or politicians, but with the huge numbers of people that you are getting on this site now (and I have no doubt that we will mention Stirling Council now and again in the future on other posts), by just mentioning this sites name to these councillors, and letting them know that, ‘by the way, congrats …you’ve just come under the nationalist spotlight. You’re wee secretive and arrogant plan is now out in the open‘, it will certainly put a wee bit of the fear into them.
For a lot of these councillor folk, the job that they do has become their way of life. Fear of losing that job is their worst nightmare. By hinting that this won’t be forgotten come local election time, as I said, it puts the fear in them, and it just might put doubt in their mind into going through with the act.
Personally, I think the boy McChord will glance at my email (if he even does that), and just hit the delete button. That’s his choice at the end of the day.
But the warning to him was there! When the referendum debate goes white-hot next summer, then what they have done (choosing to ignore the advice, as well as the hinted warnings), it might be a useful couple of bullets in the armoury of the local YES folk in Stirling.
Imagine telling folk that the ‘unionist’ council tore down their flag, and put up the union flag instead, and they arrogantly did it, without asking the opinion of the locals. It might not get everybody growling, but it may just win a few more folk over.
As everyone on this post has said, this council have just given us a couple of gifts here. They have personally placed the Union Flag over the Saltire, thus handing the Saltire to us.
They have also said that they will stand up for their symbols, but place ours at a lower level. This mean they place British values over Scottish values when push comes to shove.
The councillors used the words that ‘they resolve to stand up for the symbols of their country by flying the union flag’. That language means, that they have chosen their ‘symbols’, and therefore, will fight against the oppositions symbols. Basically, one could summarise that in two words; ‘cultural war’.
It was very stupid language to use on such a public document …very stupid!
So, in one petulant act, they just killed their argument of how they are all ‘proud Scots’.
In the cold light of morning, and my own anger subsided, I realise that we may have gained something here.
What about those projectors that put an image on a building?
anyone know where such a thing could be borrowed/loaned/hired to project a saltire on the building ?
@JLT
There’s no doubt about it JLT, they’ll have done more to motivate the independence vote/activist with one act of historic stupidity than all the tub thumping any of us could muster would do. Even the language used in the proposal by Campbell and Gibson is pretty much laying it right out there for all to see. I’m almost hoping they pull it off.
Almost.
Just sent the following to the Editor of the Stirling Observer:
I write to express my sadness and dismay at the proposal to replace Stirling’s Saltire above the Council buildings with the Union flag. As one of the 62% who feel Scottish rather than British, I suspect I am in the majority in this.
By replacing the Saltire with the Union flag, Stirling Council are in danger of persuading many who have been swithering over whether to vote Yes or No next year into voting Yes. Unless, of course, this is the Council’s intention.
Given that the one of the first items of business for Thursday’s Council Meeting is to condemn the “UK Government’s barbaric under occupancy charge”, I cannot help but think that there is either great hypocrisy, or even worse, rank stupidity, at work here. The Scottish Government opposed the charge, the UK government imposed it anyway. What is the real message being sent out by the flying of the Union Flag?
COSLA’s get together is most certainly not good news. This is Labour trailing its proposals to neuter Holyrood and invest what minimal powers remain in Scotland after a No vote in Labour’s rotten boroughs. Labour have given up on Holyrood, and if we don’t hammer that message home, we’ll end up with the likes of the pygmies on Stirling Council in control of our daily lives.
It’s a decision based on ignorance, nothing else. What many don’t realise is that even many Tory grandees see the WOI’s as something to celebrate and the Union as an eventual victory for Scotland – the best outcome we Scots could have hoped for in the end. No, I can’t quite get my head around that line of thought either but I’ve no doubt it’s what they believe, nonetheless. In essence, they consider themselves to be Scottish patriots, first and foremost.
This decision will prove to be counter-productive, even amongst soft No voters. The best thing committed Yes voters can do is hold onto their tempers and profit by default.
This reminds me of the English Media who only think Football began in 1992 with the birth of the Premiership.
Scottish History did not begin in 1707!
Firsty of all, if this is what theyre reduced to, “FLEG” tactics ala Ulster, then it shows just how sadly far they have fallen. Just slow hand clap them and dont get annoyed, its what they want.
Its the equivalent of the naughty schoolchild begging for attention by doing something they know is wrong but worth it for a reaction.
As for 2 ruling parties who werent actually voted for overstepping the mark, well we’re all seeing exactly why coalitions are no use. The previous Minority SNP Government knew what they were doing alright!
I am minded by some posters above of the need to ‘keep the heid’, with regards to this nonsense. The best we all can do is write to the local paper, and the relevant councillors, expressing dismay at what appears to be a rather juvenile act by some grown men with a wee bit of power.
They betray the history and people of Scotland, the memory of Sir William Wallace, murdered in cold blood by the English in London, and Robert the Bruce, King of Scots, whose Scottish army defeated an aggressive, imperialist, English army that invaded Scotland.
Make no mistake, there is nothing the unionists want more than to provoke some kind of reaction, they have done so throughout the history of Scotland, with their unionist ‘agents provocateurs’, who pretend to be on the side of independence, then encourage vandalism, in-fighting, or worse.
We on the YES side, have the winning argument, and we need to remember that during 2014. We will see more intentional and stupid acts by pathetic Labour unionists who regard Britain and NOT Scotland as their country. They are pathetic, sad individuals, and despite my anger last night on reading this, we need to rise above them and their cloying, London-worshipping, ilk.
Those behind this union jack nonsense are yesterday’s men, locked in the past, struggling to survive. We should pity them.
Absolutely disgraceful. I sincerely hope the voters of Stirling remember this outrageous statement when they come to vote at the next election. It is this type of action that has put me firmly in the YES vote camp. ‘A Parcel of Rogues’ live on regretfully.
I can only say that I am glad I don’t live in Stirling and that these bigots are not representing me.
And even yet, there is still no argument saying why we should be proud to be British, only reasons why we should be ashamed to be Scots
Cultural war is exactly what it is, JLT. Our culture (and that of much of the English regions) has always been supressed. It’s since the Scottish parliament arrived that there’s been a resurgence and the unionists now want to quash that and return to the idea that we have no culture at all. The statement by Lord Robertson that we have no language or culture was another shot in that.
It’s all adding up to a far clearer picture of the two paths that will be open to us next September. Vote no and have powers removed from Holyrood – back to Westminster or down to corrupt, idiotic local councillors like these – have union jacks shoved down your throat at every opportunity including in place of the Saltire; have your culture traduced and cultural symbols removed and replaced with the ever bland Britishness. Be continually told your wee, poor, stupid, worthless. And no chance to redress it because any hope of another referendum will be removed.
Or a new, independent Scotland, going our own way free from the control of all those types. A chance to put in place the CommonWeal, get rid of the nuclear weapons and waste we’ve been a dumping ground for and assert our own culture.
@ Shinty says:
“I have a wee shop that will be vacant December to Easter, so I will either donate it to YES Scotland for a few months or fill it myself with articles from Wings and others.”
Help yourself to some of my http://www.indyposterboy.info posters if they’ll be of use.
And on the Common Weal, see @cath, only 15 days of their fundraiser. Looks like they could do with a boost. Not sure why it hasn’t attracted more at this stage. Everyone seems very positive about what they’re doing and their aims, mmmm, funny one.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-common-weal-we-need-you-to-build-a-better-scotland
@shinty
Re your shop, I’ve been thinking about a space, a pop up idea, hadn’t been considering Stirling, but why not? Also this falls before the official period. Anyway if you’d be interested in having a chat about it my e mail is somewhere in quarantine, not that far from the last comment.
@ Lianachan says:
“No need to be so damn condescending, Rev.”
Don’t take it personally, I’m sure it wasn’t meant that way. The Rev’s sense of humour can be rather dry, even arid. Enjoyable nonetheless, if taken in the spirit in which it is intended.
Take them frontbencher buildings. Pop them into storage until someone with a large enough open trailer and retraints turns up then take them on a tour of the country they played a role in creating and died for. the scottish people will make their own mind up when they see the statues touring the country after being unceremoniously exited from their own home. the decision to make the statues and place them in their location predates entirely any of the current marionettes involved in this. discarding these statues provided to honour the heritage of Scotland and Stirling’s important role in the formation of our nation send a clear message to the people of scotland. imagine if this was ghandi or prrhaps churchill. the councillors would be strung up as charged with inciting racism. what’s next?? Topple the monument, wreck grave stones of cultural icons?? Warning after warning…. These elected people despoiling our own identities. Sickening and I am fed up with being on the receiving end of one insult after another. these people are a disgrace and the people who they represent are worse. That includes joe mcpublic that voted them in.
Thanks Albalha, been meaning to chuck a bit into that one.
Alan Esson ,’safe archaic narrow institutionalised mindset’. I definitely think there is something in that. How many of us now do the job we started out doing? There have been policy, technology changes, social attitude changes. The title may be the same but the job is completely different yet through it all, if you look across Scotland , Labour Councillors in particular have sat in those positions for years,running our Councils.
When Radio 4 were investigating the Falkirk shenanigans,they visited Camelon Labour Club. The reporter said the youngest was 63. Various quotes state the membership for Falkirk is 200. So Falkirk Council has a core support of 200 people mainly coming up for retirement ? Now experience is needed but is that really representative of the community?How common is that across Scotland?
I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure the Observer used to carry a column by Anne Mcguire MP Labour) ,so not sure they”l be concerned about the change of flag.
The Stirling Council thing is regrettable, no doubt when the ‘dirty nats’ complain the cooncillors will become indignant and claim to be victims of abuse from precious reactionary nationalists.
Personally, I’m (still) more angry about Jeremy Purvis being ennobled, I still can’t fucking believe it. He’s now Baron Purvis of somewhere and for what? He was on Newsnight on Monday and I’m still reeling.
I don’t think I’m fixated on it, I mean I think I’ll get over it.
Jeremy Fucking Purvis though? He’s a wee boy and now we have to listen to his noble opinions. Actual wee boys have better opinions…
But as I said, I’m not fixated about it…
You all know that any hysterical reaction from the yes camp is all the public will read about in the papers and make US look like the bad guys because those disgusting little men can hide behind the msm skirts?
The guidance on the precedence of flying flags in the UK comes from the Flag institute, a UK membership-based organisation.
from their website:
“The Flag Institute Flag
The Flag Institute flag depicts the Cross of Saint George on a white V on blue, the international symbol for Vexillology”
Personally, I’m (still) more angry about Jeremy Purvis being ennobled, I still can’t fucking believe it. He’s now Baron Purvis of somewhere and for what? He was on Newsnight on Monday and I’m still reeling.
You’re reeling? How do you think I feel? In April 2011 I walked and cycled and drove all over the Lyne valley, from Carlops to Dolphinton, from Lamancha to Broughton, all with the aim of getting rid of that little squit from the Scottish parliament. I talked to voters, and I shoved leaflets through doors, even doors with names like Lonelybield and Stoneypath and Standalane. I ran out of doors about 8 pm on the evening of election day, with 25 leaflets still in my possession.
I (as part of a dedicated group working for the same aim) was successful. We beat him hands down and he was out on his ear. Only to find that he was given a special free pass and we still have to pay for him to lord it over us.
I’ve known for weeks, maybe months, that he was in the HoL. (I’m still spitting carpet tacks mind you.) Why is it news today?
Slightly off-piste, an English footballer gets all nationalistic and anti-furriner…
“We have great characters. You think of Spain and you think technical but you think of England and you think they are brave and they tackle hard. We have to remember that.
“The only people who should play for England are English people.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24455721
The façade of that building is pretty plain. What it really needs is a big mural of King Billy on his horse, perhaps some red white and blue kerbstones outside. Think I will suggest this excellent idea to the councillors.
This is definitely provocative, if it goes ahead. I wonder if they are hoping that some “separatist” will climb up there, pull down the union flag and burn it, so that they can say “Oh look at these separatists – this is their true face – like islamist terrorists”
Wouldnt surprise me in the least.
And if there is any attempt to remove it, please do so gently, carefully fold it, and hand it over nicely with a “Sorry chaps, I think you accidentally put the wrong flag up there. We’ve save you the trouble of having to fix it – the correct one is back up”
As a “son of the rock” this whole business is a disgrace.
Craig P
Yes, King Billy on one side. And the Duke of Cumberland on the other. There – that’ll sort out the separatists!
A light projection of the Saltire (if it’s taken down) will get the message over.. Techy people ?
@Morag
Your story puts mine in perspective, which is to say, mine is definitely more whimsical. Good work in getting him out though and as you say, its not a little insulting to find him warming a seat in the HoL instead.
He was on Newsnight on Monday night there, which is the first time I’ve seen him anywhere for a while, being introduced as Lord this-of-that was the first I’d heard – it was only news to me. Hopefully after next year’s referendum, the little runt will get his marching orders again.
I think the HoL should be closed anyway, but what exactly are the parameters for entry if such an ineffectual, limited wee nyaff like that can get in – I say again – he’s done nothing.
There I go again. Its becoming unhealthy.
Councillors Gibson and Campbell are a pair of eejits but it doesn’t say a lot for the Leader of the Council either. Why would they sanction such a spectacular public relations disaster? The only assumption to make is that these two are mavericks, the administration is obviously not in control of them, leadership is weak, may be split and they seem desperate to divert attention away from other pressing matters.
@Colin Dunn
Thanks a lot, I will do.
@Albalha
Will do.
Reminds me of the story of Lidice a little village on the outskirts of Prague. It had a connection to the Reinhard Heimlich kiliing in that the Nazis trumped up some connection in Lidice to the resistance. In revenge, they put all the women and children into the little village church, lined all the men and boys of arms bearing age up against a wall and shot them. The women were separated from their children and all were sent to concentration camps. The town was then burnt and razed to the ground, while the Nazis fillmed themselves doing the heinous deed.
The ground where the village stood is now a large memorial centre with a huge bronze of all the children on the founds of the school. However, Lidice would not be destroyed, it lives yet after being rebuilt and many towns called Lidice have grown around the world.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/lidice_1942.htm
Just checked my personal email during my lunch. So far, no word from either paper, nor Councillor McChord.
Will check again later on tonight…
I hear they are planning to fly Union jacks from all the buildings and lamp posts in Stirling for next years armed forces day. That much is already known, it’s in their own plans, but what I didn’t know was there were council architects at the Wallace monument last week measuring the ground as their idea is to erect a huge flagpole and Union Jack. I thought this must be a joke but apparently the council run the monument and it’s all part of their plan to cover everything they control in Union jacks in response to the huge surge in passion that will result from the Ryder cup, commonwealth games etc.
It’s like the last days of the raj and there are similarities. Labour have done deals with the orange order to allow them to have as many marches as they want. In fact their is a huge one planned for Edinburgh next May/June with 30,000+ attending from all over the UK, Ireland and farther afield. I reckon they will use the orange order like foot soldiers to spread hatred, disease, anarchy, the threat of a new religious led terror war on our streets which will scare the scots into voting NO. They will bring what goes on in Belfast to the streets of Scotland and it’ll unfold gradually before our very eyes.
Of course rising up as a nation is not just confined to the ballot box and I hope our more militant supporters are ready to act as and when necessary. This is all going to get very very nasty, very, very soon. This should be a wake-up call for everyone, this is what it means to be better together.
@JLT
JLT, don’t hold your breath on getting a response from McChord. Him and Gibson are two of a kind and good friends. I think their wives are related and they go on holiday together so don’t expect any help from him. You would be better contacting the Tory councillors ‘cos everyone in Stirling knows they’re the tail that wags the dog.
The Union Flag is the “Vote Yes” flag. At least that’s what I think every time I see one.
“Of course rising up as a nation is not just confined to the ballot box and I hope our more militant supporters are ready to act as and when necessary.”
It doesn’t need militant ones. It needs entirely non-militant ones. Forget protests and counter-demos. Makes sure the media in countries outside Scotland, including England, know exactly what they’re doing. Then let them get on with it. Meanwhile over in the Yes campaign, we’ll be having parties, concerts, cheerful rallies, flying the positive Yes flag (the Saltire, as opposed to the UJ which as Albert says is also the Yes flag but the negative one).
Stress the differences between those two sights and two campaigns. Don’t make both two sides of the same militant, nationalistic, jingoistic coin. Only the no side can gain from dragging both into the gutter.
Let them go there and we’ll just walk over them.
I would agree, the plastering of Union Jacks everywhere including the Wallace Monument would be an act of folly on the part of the No campaign that we could only hope for. Let them try and politicise both the monuments and the Armed Forces day and let them pay the consequences. The mocking laughter at their 1950s Brittishery attack will more than compensate…pushing them to further extremes.
To be honest I can’t quite believe all 12 councillors are that stupid and will go for this but who knows sometimes the enemy really is as stupid as they appear.
@ Anne (@annewitha_e)
“A light projection of the Saltire (if it’s taken down) will get the message over”
If it happens, I think the taking down of the Saltire and replacement by Union flag should be filmed and put on YouTube. Then linked to everywhere.
O/T Was walking down to the shops yesterday when I noticed a vehicle on the road with a most impressive “independence” logo written on the back and sides and I thought to myself it was really effective and perhaps more effective than a Yes sign. Told everybody about it and wondered where you got it.
To cut a long story short, to my embarrassment, it turns out it’s a mobility vehicle called the Peugeot Independence. But it’s very impressive logo just the same.
http://www.alliedmobility.com/vehicle_range/wheelchair_accessible_cars_and_mpvs/peugeot_independence/image-gallery/
Colin
I agree, it needs to be filmed. It is the formal handing over of the Saltire to the Yes campaign and the adoption of the Union flag as the Unionist emblem. This needs to be recorded.
To cut a long story short, to my embarrassment, it turns out it’s a mobility vehicle called the Peugeot Independence. But it’s very impressive logo just the same.
Didn’t the SNP offer one of these as a raffle prize some years ago? Or maybe not quite the same – I think it was just a model of the Peugeot 206, called Independence.
If it goes ahead they will probably do it at night to minimise publicity. Cowards, doing their dirty work in the dark.
As there are 12 of them and 10 in opposition they can afford to have two abstainers and still win with the provost having the casting vote.
@Handandshrimp
Were I on the SNP side of that council meeting I’d probably reply along the lines of ‘well we think its a poor idea, but if you really must…’ 🙂
@Macart,
I was thinking pretty much the same thing, let them get on with it if it’s really what they want, then let them reap what they sow.
@restlessnative
this is exactly why i will be voting no, because of sectarianists like you bringing this down to a celtic rangers issue, i was almost swayed by this stupid removal of flag then i read your post and came to my sences,,,
That’s not a very good reason to vote no you know.
to stop a semi sectarian nation becoming a full blown one is good enough for me
“to stop a semi sectarian nation becoming a full blown one is good enough for me”
A lot needs done to change attetudes that have been fostered over many years, sadly often handed down through the generations.
Any vote placed in a ballot box will never change this – it comes from social attitudes and it will take many years to slowly change. The option is do you wish to change peoples attitudes? Is is worth doing long term?
“I agree, it needs to be filmed. It is the formal handing over of the Saltire to the Yes campaign and the adoption of the Union flag as the Unionist emblem. This needs to be recorded.”
Yup. Recorded and shared everywhere. And make bloody sure everyone knows it’s a coalition of Labour and the Tories doing it.
““to stop a semi sectarian nation becoming a full blown one is good enough for me””
Sectarianism is largely a product of deliberate divide and rule from the same people who’re now trying to inflame it more by taking the Saltire down for a union jack. If you think they’re going to do anything at all to try and fix it after a no vote you’ll be sadly disappointed. Independence is the only hope for tackling sectarianism, which is why so many sectarian bigots on both sides are against it.
@MochaChoca
Napoleon was right you know. Never interrupt… 🙂
James Westland – son of the rock – you a Dumbarton man too? Or is that what folk frae Stirling call themselves?
I am minded to let them get on with it, in fact let them go as overboard as possible (which is why I mentioned the kerbstones and murals in jest). Someone else mentioned last days of the Raj, there is a definite feeling that this might be the last chance to fly these flags.
“to stop a semi sectarian nation becoming a full blown one is good enough for me”
I can hardly bear to credit this drivel with a question, but – how do you envisage that happening, exactly? What laws do you think will be passed after independence that will turn Scotland into a sectarian country?
WWZ
The sectarianismistas all wave flags other than the Saltire. An independent Scotland under the Saltire would drain that pool of poison. So come to your senses and vote Yes.
Craig P Here you go!
http://www.stirling.gov.uk/services/community-life-and-leisure/local-history-and-heritage/local-history/castle-and-town/sons-of-the-rock
“to stop a semi sectarian nation becoming a full blown one is good enough for me”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/catholics_still_barred_from_throne_despite_law_change_1_1937348
“world war z”, do you honestly think anyone believes that bolloxs, and trying to use ‘restlessnative’s posting as an excuse is just plain dishonest. Don’t bother to reply as I am cutting down to one troll comment a day.
If Stirling allows its own and Scotlands flag to be replaced it will be a very sad day for that icon of Scotland, their is nowhere in the world that a desendent of Scotland does not know of or have heard of Stirling and the proud place it holds in Scottish history.
Stirling do not allow those Cllr’s to besmirch your glorious name.
Davy
I quite like trolls…although I can’t eat a whole one, especially concern trolls…too sickly sweet.
@World War Z
“to stop a semi sectarian nation becoming a full blown one is good enough for me”
You know, I’ve lived in various parts of Scotland and feel I should point out that the only real sectarianism I’ve seen is around the central belt and mostly I’ve just read about it rather than witnessed it. In other parts of Scotland, it’s of no interest whatsoever, so I don’t think you need to worry about Scotland becoming a fully sectarian nation. In fact, even in Glasgow, I don’t find it to be all that much of an issue, but there again, I’ve no interest in either religion or football and have very few friends or relatives who are interested in these things either.
I do, however, have a lot of experience in the education field and have not noticed any attempts to change the law that upholds the right to have separate schools where there are enough pupils to fill them – same as any other school, actually.
So, I have no reason to think that voting Yes will somehow or other produce some kind of sectarian state. And remember, we will have a constitution underpinning our rights, which we don’t have at the moment. I’m hoping that this constitution, which we will all be allowed to have a say in before it’s completed, will be based on equal rights for all citizens and that church and state will be held separate, so nobody is either favoured or discrimated against on any grounds whatsoever, including religion. And that’s a damn site more than we have at the moment or can have any hope of having in the future, unless we vote for an independent Scotland.
Not sure if I’ve read it right but on S Govt potocol page it states, the saltire should be flown on all its buildings. On St Andrews day where there is only one flagpole -yup it should be the Saltire . Maybe they are going for the keep fit angle or are they looking for a reaction from the SG?
i was almost swayed [….] then i read your post….
That’s classic. So classic it’s a bit stale. Try harder.
Here’s a copy of an email I’ve just sent Councillor Danny Gibson:
Dear Danny Gibson,
I find your motion to fly the Union Jack grossly offensive and demand that you withdraw it.
Your nonsensical motion says symbols of “our country” – well our country is Scotland and our ancient flag is the Saltire which, to remind you, is 800 years older than the Union Jack. The Union Jack is not the symbol of a country – the UK is not a country – it is a political union – so your assertions do not add up and make you look ridiculous once again – something you seem to have a natural talent for.
I have forwarded a copy of my complaint to Labour Party HQ calling for you to be disciplined for bringing your party into disrepute. I will be also attending all your next next community council meetings where I will be publicly calling for your resignation.
From what I gather I have yet to hear one person, be it in Stirling Council, the community councils or any locals who have a good word to say about you.
Yours sincerely,
Jimmy Gilvear
Good for you “Jimmy Gilvear”.
“this is exactly why i will be voting no, because of sectarianists like you bringing this down to a celtic rangers issue”
How an atheist can be sectarian is beyond me but crack on,and did I mention Celtic?,no.Is “sectarianists” a proper word?,no.If you choose to vote no because of what was meant to be a light hearted dig at the “quintessential British” team, fire on,and if It does go tits up and were condemned to another 4 years of Tory rule I hope you realise what a fucking twat you’ve been and suffer accordingly.Do I like Rangers,no,I have my reasons,the way I saw my Catholic friends treated by scum,the way I got treated at work when I was 17 when my orange workmates found out I was seeing a young Catholic girl,or “Wee Fenian Cow” as they called her,the way my friend and I were attacked by some fuckwit wearing not an Aberdeen top for drunkenly singing “Flower of Scotland” in the street,I really could go on.The sad thing is there’s probably many on here suffered a whole lot worse and more at the hands of bigots and the one thing I want after a YES vote next year is my country rid of that fucking stain.Now get a fucking grip son/hen,get yer fucking priorities right and vote fucking YES.
The Queen’s Union Jack has been to long on our back’s,lets forget the auld orange and green. Hailsa
can you not use civilized language restlessnative,,,you did bring rangers into this debate by what you said and now you are saying you were having a lighthearted dig, and go on to call me a fucking twat and tell us all about how u were wronged by your workmates,,whats that got to do with independence? im totally against the removal of the saltire and think it is stupid and can only help the cause of the nationalists.
as for Davy, i did not like what he said and explained y, so deal with it,
rev campbell, the the way i enisage this happening is this,,in an independent scotland. with only 5 million people secarianism would be able to flourish alot more easily than it does now in a united kingdom of 60 million people, thats what i think.
This is just one small reason , not the only one y i would not vote yes,, too many unknowns, not enough answers from the separitists,,but i will prob be shouted down as no one else is allowed to say anything against the nationalists
Everyone,
This is a wake up call for all us. We see what lies ahead, now is the time for action.
You’ve heard of the phrase ‘Arab Spring’, well this is our ‘Alba Autumn’. Sons and daughters of Scotland rise up … fly the Saltire at every occasion and from every building, wear the kilt with pride, it is an honour and a privilege. Reason with your fellow Scot that to regain their freedom they must believe in your vision, for you will not let down your fellow Scot. Reject this dysfunctional union and condemn it to history just as they have tried, and continue to try, to erase our culture, heritage and identity to be part of a union which is hated and despised in every corner of this planet.
Do this because it is the right thing to do. God forgives the righteous and they will live in an eternal sun.
#AlbaAutumn
regards
Rev James Gilvear
world war z . if you go to Waterstones ,on the second shelf ,in between ‘how to be a bigot for beginners’ and ‘how do I think for myself’ is a book called ‘The answer to Everything ‘ published by Eejit and Naevision.
wow -no shouting you down , no sectarian comment , just disappointmented for you, that you think this is really as good as it gets -good luck
Who would have thought that the reason that stops Scotland becoming a 100% sectarian basket case is that Westminster controls our oil revenues and underfunds us?
Take control of these powers for ourselves and it all goes belly up.
Come on world war z, we can make Scotland a better place to live.
Vote YES.
Here’s one to cheer you all up…
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/why-the-saltire-makes-me-cringe.22381101
Written to provoke I presume.
Stirling Council’s wee flag problem getting a mention on GMS this morning.
Jimmy Glivear makes an excellent point. I remember well the SNP campaigns of 74. There were SNP logos everywhere – posters, flags – the presence was massive.
Something similar is needed again. Massive displays of saltires, badges. Got a badge on your car? Poster in your window. Flag flying? Make a St Andrews Day Resolution to do it !
BBC version suggests an entirely different nuance; that saltire still flying. No mention of “our country” and Northern Ireland of course.
The Herald article is just a bit sad. A Scottish cringe writ large. However, he is right in that Better Together are terrified of the Union flag. They have every right to be terrified of it because despite the apologetic Mark writes for the Union he is wrong. The Saltire has no negative connotations (I note he gives no examples to back up his claim). The overwhelming majority of Scots see it as their flag and feel warm towards it. The Better Together crowd are terrified to wave the Union flag in the face of that natural support. Stirling are breaking ranks and this is on the whole a good thing for Yes Scotland and if at all possible the lowering of the Saltire and the raising of the Union flag should be filmed and put on Youtube and Facebook.
but i will prob be shouted down as no one else is allowed to say anything against the nationalists
WWZ
No you are allowed to say stuff here. It is Better Together that bans dissent on their websites. We like debate. Just don’t expect to get an easy ride if you can’t back assertions with facts 🙂
I am so pleased that it has been this article on this site which has led the way on the subject and as a result we now see the main stream media following it up.
“Wings Over Scotland – leading where others can only follow!”
ty for not shouting me down, as i said , the sectarian thing is not the main reason i think we should stay in the uk, .Moving on ,even you must admit the answers to alot of qustions have not been answered,,if this information was issued it would get more votes for independence, or maybe not, its the lack of info from the yes side which is making me nervous.. There seems to be alot of info in all the papers telling us that oil money is not as much as snp say, they dont know what currency we will use, and it may well still be the pound meaning the bank of england would b in control, not very independent.Snp say we will be in eu, the eu say we wont, snp say we will be in nato, nato say we wont, you all must have read this? Snp i think are now saying we would be like norway,,but it was only a few years ago before the banks crashed they were saying we would be like iceland,and look what happened to them.
Back to the flag thing, its ridiculous to remove the saltire, on that i agree
STIRLING TORY-LABOUR MOVE TO REMOVE SALTIRE WITHDRAWN
Stirling Council’s ruling Tory-Labour group has withdrawn its motion to remove the Saltire from Stirling Council’s headquarters and replace it with a Union Flag.
Commenting after news that the motion had been withdrawn, SNP Councillor Steven Paterson said: “I welcome the fact this ill-conceived motion has finally been withdrawn.
“People will decide on the merits of otherwise of independence based on the facts and the strength of the arguments, not based on foolish motions like this one. I am pleased that Stirling Council will now concentrate on the delivery of local services, undermined as they are by this failing Tory-Labour Administration and their decision to reduce council tax at the cost of staff conditions and council services.”
Interesting, if true, that they have decided to withdraw the motion. I wonder if this was actually some sort of kite-flying exercise – you know, propose something really controversial, and see how much fire you attract, just to see what the reaction is. And then say “woah, hang on, only kidding” And then go away and think, “Hmmph, that’ll have to wait, never mind, some other time”
‘call me dave’ already pointed out the rules regarding flags on public buildings. The Stirling Observer article from 2009, points out that a motion has already been passed. But the interesting caveat was “…to fly the Saltire from the council’s flagpoles when no other flag is being flown” like perhaps the Union Flag obviously.
So no need for the new motion. They could run up the Union flag quite happily on two counts if they wished, without courting too much controversy. The motion itself is what is astonishing. It explicitly states the reason for change of flag. Now that is nailing your colours to the mast right enough. Just to hoist it wasn’t adequate,, we are being told why. Very interesting indeed, even if the motion is withdrawn, the reasons of intent remain.
World war z,Turn it the other way round.Ask yourself if the oil was running out , why are they so keen to hold onto Scotland?For our humour?Then look up the Mccrone report, that gives you an idea of honesty shown to the Scottish people.Westminster hid the report for 30 years.
Then take a look outside around you is that a hill or is it something the Mod made look like a hill and ask yourself, is this really acceptable that my home, my country , my children’s country be used as a dumping ground ?
Then look at the people around you , what if they were given a chance , what if you were given a chance to change things. No guarantees but you think you know how things are now but will they stay this way? No guarantees .Nobody knows but the main thing is – do you want Someone else to speak for you then vote No, Do you want the chance to speak for yourself then read, listen make up your own mind but definitely vote.
“world war z”
We can do it friend.Most of us have waited all our lives for this chance.Sometime’s I despaired because I thought this day would never come.Unfortunately it came to late for my Father,the man who instilled a pride and belief in me of this country of ours that will never fade,and I know when I walk into that polling station next year he’ll be watching over me knowing I’m going in to do the right thing.You asked me last night what my treatment by my “workmates” had to do with independence,nothing really other than the fact it made me despise bigots and made me long for a country where that kind of thing is confined to the cesspit of history.Just don’t wake up next year the day after the referendum,and,if the unthinkable happens and there is a no vote,don’t sit there thinking what could’ve been.The unionist side are playing on your fears,what do you think is going to happen after independence?.Their not going to rip up the the rail tracks or tear down the power lines,yes there will be issues,there maybe tough times,but eventually this country can and will take its rightful place amongst the free and prosperous nations of this world.
The auld boy loved this
O/T: Restlessnative – Good Corries song that one -hadnt heard it before. I like a lot of the stuff the Corries did – their arrangements of old Jacobite songs were great. And speaking of such things, heres a good line:
‘Prosperity to Scotland and No Union’ from:
http://collections.glasgowmuseums.com/cld.html?cid=533669
@James Westland
Quite literally have the t shirt!,bought at the rally from the lovely ladies from Proud Clothing. Here’s the link to their website,http://www.proudclothing.co.uk/ .It doesn’t appear to be in stock unfortunately (it had PtSaNU on the back and Jacobite on the front) but I’m sure if you got in touch they would let you know of any future availability or have any lying around.
Restlessnative. Excellent!!! Great design for a t-shirt. I had a quick shuftie at the website – there are some good designs in there. Some very funny ones as well. Thanks for that link. I know this is completely O/T, but someone once pointed out, when you think about the Jacobite era, how many songs are there in favour of the white cockade? Hundreds. How many are pro the Hanoverians? Cant think of any, certainly none that are famous, except possibly that ghastly “Rebellious Scots to crush” addition to the so-called national anthem (which apparently was never official anyway). Any historians got any ideas. Sorry for going O/T.
Actually, maybe its not O/T completely. Songs like flags are powerful emotion-raisers (and that can be bad as well as good) Scotland has some damned fine songs. And traditional music is possibly more popular than it has been for ages. I think there is a close relationship between the resurgence in culture with the resurgence in nationhood.
@world war z
They want you to believe that there are no answers – but there are! You should go to the YES Scotland website – where they try to answer the main ones.
However, we are talking about the future which is by definition uncertain. So don’t be feart, get yourself some knowledge and think carefully why the Establishment wants you to be afraid. It’s not for Scotland’s benefit, that’s for sure.
sue said: Of course rising up as a nation is not just confined to the ballot box and I hope our more militant supporters are ready to act as and when necessary. This is all going to get very very nasty, very, very soon.
You wish. You black flag operators are so bloody obvious. Get away back to Labour headquarters and come up with a positive vision for Scotland instead of trying to incite some convenient violence.
James,don’t know if you have read this book.
http://www.booksfromscotland.com/Books/Bare-Arsed-Banditti-9781845964108?view=viewCover
A must read if you are interested in that period,the author wrote another called “Damn’ Rebel Bitches,The Woman of the ’45”,I haven’t read it but if it is as good as the former it to will be well worth a read.Agree wholeheartedly about the songs and music.
Restlessnative, That looks like a good read. Never heard of it before There was a man, who I believed worked in the Scottish Office, called John S Gibson who wrote a number of books on the Jacobite rebellions – very scholarly they were too. Died a number of years ago. Also, there is this fascinating book which I came across just recently “Bonanza and Jacobites” about the Alva silver mine. I spent the first few years of my life in Alva – and as a geologist, I find the story fascinating.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bonanzas-Jacobites-Story-Silver-Glen/dp/1905267088
So much to read, so little time! (Sorry for going O/T again)
Thank you for the link James,looks a fascinating read and an episode I’d never heard of,I will be will sure to check it out.
Origins of the Saltire – Read – ‘The Phoenician Origin of Britons, Scots & Anglo-Saxons’ by L.A. Waddell… http://www.jrbooksonline.com/waddell.htm
Typical Campbell. Makes the blood boil.
Coming on here at the coo’s tail. Friend told me my Jacobite books had been mentioned in dispatches and has thus introduced to me Wings Over Scotland, so I thought I’d sign up and join the debate. What has the outcome of the Stirling Saltire stushie been? I didn’t get round to the Sunday papers yesterday.
Love the quote from Napoleon about not interrupting your enemy while he’s making a mistake. Alex Salmond’s a past master at that. Although I dinna think I could bear seeing Bruce and Wallace under the Union Jack.
Haven’t come across any pro-Hanoverian songs. There’s Ye Jacobites by Name but that’s anti-war rather than pro-Hanoverian.
I’m voting with my heart next September. Yes. If I’m spared.
“What has the outcome of the Stirling Saltire stushie been?”
The two councillors withdrew their motion, the existing flags are safe.
“… if it only weren’t for those pesky Nats!”
Thanks for the update.
Another tory council – Ayr are now flying the union flag on top of the Wallace monument in Ayr High Street
Its unbelievable, unforgivable and a big F*CK you for us all as a nation
“Another tory council – Ayr are now flying the union flag on top of the Wallace monument in Ayr High Street
Its unbelievable, unforgivable and a big F*CK you for us all as a nation”
Are you in Ayr? Can you get us a pic?