When it’s grim being right
Above is an image we posted on our Facebook page a couple of days ago. It was mostly popular, getting nine and a half thousand views and 100 “Likes” (30-50 is the average), but it also attracted more criticism from supposed Yes supporters than our stuff usually does, with two or three people getting very angry and abusive indeed.
We have to assume they’re people who don’t actually understand what satire is. The implication was that we thought there was something funny about the events in Ukraine, something which (obviously, as we’re human beings) couldn’t be further from the truth. But the fundamental misunderstanding behind the view of those who objected furiously to the image is that satire doesn’t have to be funny.
As the Google definition above notes, humour is just one of the possible approaches that satire can take to making its point, and it wasn’t the one we were adopting (which is why we didn’t use the pic in our “And Finally” 10pm comedy slot).
In posting the image we were going for the “irony”, “derision” and “scorn” angles – but not the “exaggeration” one, because from experience we were pretty confident that before too long, the violence in Kiev really would be used as a stick with which to beat the Scottish independence campaign.
It brought us no pleasure at all to be proved right so quickly.
A piece in today’s Independent makes an absolutely shameful attempt to portray an independent Scotland as a nation simmering with the same bitterness and tensions as those which have erupted in Ukraine over recent days. The paper’s Literary Editor Boyd Tonkin takes a long time to get to the point in his shock-horror headline, and starts with a figleaf of a disclaimer that “we shouldn’t predict barricades on Princes Street or bonfires on the Royal Mile”, but after that he gets down and dirty.
“Have Alex Salmond and his team planned enough for the outcomes of a narrow-scrape victory? Without alarmism, it doesn’t seem absurd to direct them to the rocky history of post-Communist Europe.”
Nice use of “without alarmism” there.
“Secessionists who dream of Norway and Denmark should at least take a peek not just at Ukraine but into the long nightmare of Bosnia – shaken again this month by disintegrative protests.”
The Bosnian civil war of the early 1990s, by the most recent estimates, cost more than 100,000 people their lives, over a third of them civilians. The conflict gave the world the term “ethnic cleansing”. But Tonkin isn’t done yet:
“We don’t need to travel that far to witness the lingering misery of botched state formation. This year is the centenary not only of the First World War but also of a local uprising against the authority of the British parliament. It happened in Ireland, yes. And Ulster Protestants were responsible.
When the passage of the third Home Rule Bill of 1912, giving de facto self-government to all Ireland, became inevitable, the country’s unionists rose in arms… Ireland descended into civil wars. That collapse of legitimacy drained and wounded both islands for almost a century.”
At around 3500 recorded attributable deaths over 30 years, we suppose we must consider “The Troubles” to be Tonkin’s best-case scenario for an independent Scotland compared to the far bloodier slaughter in Bosnia. Certainly, it’s one that’s a lot closer to home, and with Scotland’s largest city still riven (though decreasingly so) by sectarian divides closely connected to Irish history it’s a piece of scaremongering that might all too plausibly find a receptive audience.
For a respectable liberal newspaper to be attempting to terrify the people of Scotland over the prospect of independence in such a grotesque and lurid manner is beyond contempt. There’s no small measure of irony in the fact that merely by accurately predicting such an attempt, we found ourselves the ones accused of bad taste.
The campaign against Scottish independence draws no lines in the sand, and marks no depth out of bounds. Yes supporters have found themselves labelled a “virus” by a senior elected politician, Scotland’s First Minister is regularly likened to various genocidal dictators by MPs and broadsheet commentators alike, and we’re called “Nazis” so often that it no longer even bears remarking upon.
National newspapers vilify and demonise us on a daily basis as “poisonous”, “vile”, “rabid”, “sinister”, “bullies”, “yobs”, “trolls”, “thugs” and “spies”, for no greater crime than peacefully and democratically seeking self-determination for our country.
We make now, and will make in the future, no apology for documenting and recording their smears and slurs, either after the fact or in advance. Those who quail at reporting of the truth (like the idiot woman who appeared on this morning’s BBC “Newswatch” demanding the censorship of disturbing footage from rioting in Ukraine and Thailand on the grounds that “it’s too real”) are advised to find another website to read.
Not getting the Independent (seldom in the past and even less likely to in the future after this episode) I wonder what world some people are living in. Do these people know Scotland?
The fear campaign is going to get even worse, of course. But hopefully social media will be able to counterbalance its effects; that and local meetings which have been having a slow but positive effect, I think.
Of course, we could always imagine a situation in which Eck is arrested and incarcerated on trumped up charges and replaced with direct rule from Dover House. But Ukraine seems to me an unlikely parallel with Scotland. And it’s probably to late now in any case.
Well said Rev.
And this guy is a Literary editor? He should know better than most that words have to be handled with great care.
He appears to struggle to understand the following:
We Are Not Afraid of You
Still waiting for the Scottish Liberation Army to appear. When there were reports of parcel bombs found at army bases the other day, I was confidently expecting to be told that they had Dundee postmarks and were secured with tartan Sellotape.
john b :
Yes it will get much worse. It saddens me greatly that, as far as I am concerned, regardless of the vote I will never trust a word the media comes out with. The Independent (arf) , I used to see at at least reasonanly trustworthy but now ?
You ask if they know Scotland – they know ### all outside their comfort zone.
Hear, hear, Stu.
Whatever they like to pretend, the escalation of this war of words emanates from the No side, even from the official No campaign.
But it takes two to start a fight. We should remain aloof from the worst excesses, and continue to mock and lampoon them mercilessly for their ridiculous OTT nonsense.
And you do it so well.
Stu, you should post the video of the BBCs Bowie impersonator. Wasting license fee.
As I have already said in reply to those criticising the spoof BT poster, unionists really do believe this is a possible outcome of the democratic result of the referendum, that they now publish articles suggesting this is of no surprise, their mouthpieces such as Barroso have already compared Scotland to Kosovo, Greece and countless other countries they consider to be basket cases.
They publish articles trying to discredit the countries Scotland is closer to culturally and economically (except of course the one we’re most like, namely the UK). London based commentators decry the long dark evening of Scandinavian winters oblivious to the latitudes of Scotland. ( reminds me of an oil company executive based in London who called to enquire why we weren’t shooting the seismic survey – we replied bad weather and he said but it’s lovely and sunny outside).
What they are telling you is don’t trust your friends and family, especially the ones on the ‘other side’ of this debate. They are trying to divide and conquer without grasping that Scottishness is not genetic but cultural, and we are well used to coping with a divided society and making it work anyway. We simply behave politely, do not bring the subject up in company and let each other get on with it.
It is a reflection of the British establishment’s worries about it’s own divided society, the one that has already seen rioting, and anti-government rallies. Embdy seen a rally in Scotland against the Scottish Government then?
Thought not.
I seen it and was one of the commenters. I got what you were driving at but could understand peoples feelings considering how fresh the events in Kiev were. Even I thought the unionists wouldn’t push the Kiev comparison. Oh, how wrong I was.
Methinks this guy should be visited by the boys in blue and warned about making inflammatory remarks, however shielded he thinks they may be.
If disorder flares up the police are on the spot to quell it, that’s their job and does this munchkin think he’s maybe pushing at boundaries or not? If not, he’s way above his pay grade and should be reined in. If he is well aware trouble could ensue by his giving an airing to such possibilities, he should be locked up for everybody’s safety.
BTW Rev remind me just where the ‘Independent’ rates on the recent cloud poll table and what’s its circulation in Scotland? This guy’s a number one clown.
We Are Not Afraid of You
Ian, your posts are consistently calm, confident, rational and inspiring.
Thank you.
Andrew Morton… I am also well aware of the possibility. We have to understand that we are talking about wrestling away Billions of Pounds from the elite establishment. They have carried out ‘False Flags’ before. In their desparation and with media compliance, they are quite capable. We are watching.
How many cultures and countries have been destroyed under the guise of British imperialism?
Was truly horrified at the subliminal approach BBC2 took in the editing of the ‘documentary’ on Indyref broadcast on 11th Feb. in their Top 10 topics countdown, showing background footage of London riots under the section ‘Future relationship with rUK’ was incendiary in my opinion.
How many English cities suffered mass riots day after day a couple of years ago? A lot of English people think that they are losing something that belongs to them on the 18th Sept. So we’ll just have to get used to nasty buffoons like Tonkin here.
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Well done.
I have not read the “Independent” for many years as it long ceased to report in line with its title. Another, very “English” paper in my mind now.
The article references is despicable. I have lived in the Balkans for almost 15 years now, and have spent many missions in Bosnia. It remains a country living on the edge of another bloody war not helped by the cack-handed “formula” for effectively rewarding ethnic murder by all sides. To regard Scotland’s peaceful approach to independence in the same light is a total disgrace. But as we have a senior EU official comparing Scotland to Kosovo, what can we expect.
I agree with everything here Rev, and more importantly agree with and endorse the sentiments behind your article.
thank you for continuing to highlight the hypocritical bile at the core of the Unionist MSM
Just read the full Boyd Tonkin piece.
Remarkably clumsy conflation of totally disparate issues, glossed with pretentious allusions to his literary chums and memorable meals in Kiev.
Let’s be charitable and say, okay Boyd, you had a deadline to meet, 500 words to go, and thought you’d make it all ever-so-topical by getting on the bandwagon with Bowie et al.
Nah…let’s not.
Boyd Tonkin – please just fuck off and mind your own business.
All the no voters i know say what Jackson Carlaw said-if the Yes comes in then we all have to get together and make it work.They are all Scots after all,this is a fact only the most extreme would deny.
Disgusting and putrid journalism from Tonkin and the Independent. Just shocking, that’s all. Other words fail me.
“We make now, and will make in the future, no apology for documenting and recording their smears and slurs, either after the fact or in advance (and etc.)”.
Plus 1 Rev S
The line from “We” through to “advance” is up there with the best – almost early American sounding in determination and tone.
PS In best Scottish tradition – we build you up just to tear you down – that impression may be due to the glug-ability of the Swartland Pinotage (setting that aside, it was a very good and powerful read).
So leaving behind England’s rather creepy literary ivory tower and back in the real world-http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26291546 Even BetterTogetherBBC cant spin away Scotland’s future. “No votes were cast in favour of backing a “No” vote in the referendum, which will be held on 18 September.”
Does Osama Bin Laden count in the dictator bingo? as Duncan(Zowie) compared oor Alex tae Osama!
It’s standard Westminster-Whitehall-Oxbridge mandarin elite boilerplate that the withdrawal of their civilising presence and influence from Empire will result in the natives descending into a cauldron of unending civil wars, corruption, endless dictatorships, etc.
Why does criticising the photo make you a only a “supposed yes supporter”?
@M4rkyboy – Wan of them’s wantin tae tell that scroat Michael Kelly because to a man Labour MP’s and MSP’s will stand against Scotland!
Have they forgotten the riots in their own precious back garden not so long ago, and nothing absolutely nothing happened in Scotland in that same period.
He who is without sin throw the first stone………
As an article it is utter nonsense and I took the time to say so. I think though it insults “proud” Scots like Darling far more than it insults us. It suggests that they do not identify with Scotland that they do not recognise the Saltire that they have no loyalty to Scotland.
I wonder what their response to this article is?
Suggest that WOS obtain the video of the 784 company’s ,THE CHEVIOT THE STAG AND THE BLACK BLACK OIL.Although 40 years old it still applies today.We should all view it.
‘A narrow-scrape victory’…
In the event of a ‘narrow-scrape victory’, even the most ardent advocates of a No vote will surely get down to the job of making the new Scotland work.
The soft-Nos (‘I don’t have enough information/I just don’t like that Alex Salmond’) will carry on doing what they are doing now – waiting for somebody else to tell them what to think – and so will effectively do their bit in making the new Scotland work.
It’s the consequences of a narrow-scrape defeat that worry me much, much more.
Ok. My last word on the subject.
“We have to assume they’re people who don’t actually understand what satire is.”
Oh, of course: those who criticise you just aren’t getting it, amirite? Not so much happening in the mind-tank, poor things. On the contrary, we’re fully aware of what satire is and what’s supposed to be funny and what isn’t. Resorting to condescension as a defence is a simply poor character.
Meanwhile, WE have to assume you don’t understand appropriateness and common human decency. What was the point of the exercise, exactly? To show you could be as repellent as our mainstream media? Anyone with half a brain could have predicted how scum journalism would use the Ukraine’s troubles but rather than keep the moral high ground, or any sense of personal integrity, you’ve sunk to their level to pip them to the post. A simple paragraph with your prediction would have sufficed but, no, you had to do a full mock-up and leave it there despite objections from many Yes voters who felt this was going too far.
If you can’t understand how condemning the shocking behaviour of the Independent AFTER you’ve done exactly the same is first order hypocrisy then there’s really no hope for you.
As I’ve said previously, this stunt has tainted an otherwise excellent website. Your unrepentant attitude and willingness to denigrate the intelligence of those criticising you puts the lie to the phrase “soaring above”. When it comes down to it, you’ve just proven you can be as venal, divisive and spiteful as they any politician or news agency you’d care to name.
I AM a Yes voter. No “supposed” about it. Every cell in me believes voting for Independence is Scotland’s last, best hope for a future free from rampant, uncaring capitalism and an establishment that seeks only to protect its own power in perpetuity. But we won’t win hearts and minds by pulling stunts like the above. We have to be better than that. And next time Yes voters show up telling you they have a problem with what you’re doing? You might want to practise a skill we call “listening”. Or are you really no different from Westminster?
‘The campaign against Scottish independence draws no lines in the sand, and marks no depth out of bounds. Yes supporters have found themselves labelled a “virus” by a senior elected politician, Scotland’s First Minister is regularly likened to various genocidal dictators by MPs and broadsheet commentators alike, and we’re called “Nazis” so often that it no longer even bears remarking upon.’
I have got to the stage where I am expecting this kind of a thing. Lets be clear: the MSM in the UK are an integral part of the British state. They are fomenting a very, very, nasty smear campaign against the independence movement. Not since the British establishment smeared Scargill (and he was right in what he was saying about the pit closures), have we seen a comparable hate campaign than we are seeing against Salmond in particular at present. The MSM are effectively inciting extreme elements in the unionist ranks. We know they exist in Scotland, England, and Northern Ireland. The MSM, including this excuse for a journalist in the Independent, know full well what they are doing. Unfortunately, we are all going to have to put up with a lot of provocation until the referendum (at least).
@heedtracker
You’d be surprised. The Herald headline for the PCS vote is “Blow for Yes as PCS union decides to stay neutral on indyref”
The usual suspects btw are cheering on the doom and gloom!
Isn’t this just an expansion of the scenario first posited by Ian Smart on Twitter last year? It seems that Westminster afficianados will use any scenario, no matter how fanciful or extreme, to throw at Scots in order to put them off voting YES.
Does anyone think that their scare stories are winning people over to the NO side? Do BT even believe that they will have that desired effect? Or is it that they can’t contain their venom in castigating us for being uppity jocks who seek nothing more than our own democracy?
Every time I think the MSM and the creatures that they represent can’t get much worse they always manage to find find a new low.
I sometimes wonder if these people have a shred of decency or one good bone in their bodies left. The people that represent this stinking rotten edifice are a cancer and a disgrace to everything that can be described as human!
@Brotyboy –
You’re very kind, but my last comment wasn’t exactly calm, eh?
Sometimes I really do want to let rip, and the anger is more intense when the offender isn’t a knuckle-dragger, but someone who is, obviously, intelligent. Reading through Tonkin’s piece, he makes some astonishingly retarded statements about ‘culture’ which I find flatly incredible. (Can’t be bothered going back, copying/pasting etc, but even a brief scan will throw up some howlers.)
Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the piece is its insincerity – at no point, reading it, did I get the feeling that this guy believes what he’s writing. And coming from a Literary editor? That’s truly shameful.
Why did he write it?
What was he setting out to do?
Did he achieve it?
Was it worth doing?
These are fundamentals that any student of literature comes to know very well. They’re the bare bones of Coleridge’s approach to criticism, and many writers use them as a kind of checklist on their own work.
I hope that, wherever he’s having dinner this evening, someone with genuine respect for history, culture and, yes, even literature, rams his ill-informed, mischievous droppings down his neck, one chunk at a time.
“Suggest that WOS obtain the video of the 784 company’s ,THE CHEVIOT THE STAG AND THE BLACK BLACK OIL.Although 40 years old it still applies today.We should all view it.”
It’s been in the Repository for weeks.
It’s been going on in Ukraine for around 3 months, not just ‘recent days’.
Having ditched The Times and The Guardian months ago I now must add the Independent to my list of papers to avoid. I only can access online now
I wonder how the outraged and the disgusted feel now about your poster Rev… Now that they realise that you weren’t being “sick in the head” – but rather, being prophetic about the next move of the mainstream media and the unionists.
There ain’t no gutter low enough…
Andrew Morton – ‘secured with tartan sellotape’ shurely you mean Scotch Tape! 🙂
What an abusive relationship we live in. I love you, but youre too wee, too poor and too stupid! (beats you with a big stick!) Don’t leave..I love you and want you to stay! But god you are a drain on my resources…you useless scrounger! (out comes the big stick). I need you…but don’t expect anything in return…in fact you, you pitifull fool should be happy that I want anything to do with you! Better together or time to get out of this abusive relationship and have control of your life?
“Tony Little”
So who d’you think nobbled the PCS?
Oi! London Idiot! Listen, WE ARE DEMOCRATS!! Always have been. We are not going where you think we are.
It won’t happen.
Please just stop it!
Just nipped round to the shop and asked the wee guy (he’s the Granda, only does the Sat shift) for a large bag of popcorn, but he gave me a large bottle of Lambrini.
Oh well…
@theycan’tbeserious
Exactly. Don’t go Scotland, but if you do we are going to take a fucking hammer to your head…And if you are stupid enough to stay we are going to slash your budget, and then you will really know the meaning of austerity.
@westie
I think several things about this are typical of a Propaganda campaign.
First off, it was obvious from local officials that there was a significant feeling for the union to support YES.
Second, this is relayed to Labour (especially) who then have the MSM go overboard with “revelations” of the union coming out for YES. The promotion of this idea in the pages in the last few days is the classic development of the “straw man” argument.
Third the impression is given “weight” by the careful quoting of YES/SNP officials
Fourth, the “No” campaign press for a neutral stance, rather than a “NO” stance. Probably influenced by their own feedback that the union would either be neutral (most likely) or YES (less likely) so there is nothing for it in their campaigning hard for a “NO” support
Fifth, the “NO” side have their tame media men/women on standby with the expected derisory commentary once the vote is out. Basically anything less than a convincing YES can be portrayed as a “disaster” for YES given the previous building up of the proposition in the same media
Sixth, result in, MSM headlines previously written are published.
Did anyone “nobble” the PCS? No I don’t think so, the YES vote was simply not likely to happen anyway, but the idea of a YES vote was simply a set-up. It’s propaganda 101
Hmmm, The Cheviot…
I’m afraid I’ve always found McGrath’s play patronising and well wide of the mark, in respect of the oil industry’s predicted impact on the Highlands and Islands.
Oh dear…Just looked at WoS Twitter page. The Sunday Herald are saying it is a blow to the Yes campaign that the PCS are not supporting independence. Is there anyone who believes that they are going to back independence when the crunch time comes?
In December of last year in Radio Four’s “Correspondents’ Look Ahead” the BBC’s Lyse Doucet, a Canadian, cheerfully referred to Scotland and South Sudan in the same breath. Apparently both countries ‘separation’ from a larger state are comparable.
South Sudan, Kosovo, Ukraine, Bosnia, Scotland.
What will be the next comparison? Lebanon? Cambodia? Congo? Rwanda?
This is well worth a look, bearing in mind what’s happening right now. Please check the ‘Pamphleteering & Prison’ and ‘Anglo-Scottish Union on 1707’ sections.
These people were functioning (very effectively) over 300 years ago, when we were dragged into this accursed marriage – only a fool would dare claim they’re not active now that we’re trying to get out of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Defoe#Anglo-Scottish_Union_of_1707
The Guff of Tonkin.
The pic reminds me of something one of the unionist thugs had written on one of the comments boards (can’t remember which one) about there being an ‘accident’ at Faslane as way of a parting gift from the union. They love us so much they hate us and they hate us so much they would seek to destroy us!
Keep on with the satirical posters that eerily predict the actual content of the “quality” press.
Maybe diversify into the financial press? A graph on the movement of stock exchanges or something?
Grant Cruikshank – so you choose only to opt for the definition of satire as being humour and totally miss the other options of exaggeration, ridicule and irony, to castigate Rev Stu and WoS. Hmm, clearly got a bit of a blind spot on your irony meter.
You don’t see any irony in the fact that it was posted on the WoS fb page as a prophetic mock-up of a future BT scare story. Then, as if by magic, the scare story is spouted forth as a possible outcome in an independent Scotland in, of all places, the Independent!
Shurely you’re having a laugh, no?
@ Grant – Talk about being in full attack mode. I am going to list your words and phrases that are so angry against Stuart and by association this website.
Full of condescension
Poor character
No understanding of common human decency and appropriateness
Similarly repellent like the MSM
Half brainless
Lack of personal integrity
Sunk to gutter reporting level
First order hypocrisy
Venal, divisive and spiteful
Lack of listening to genuine YES supporters.
Well Grant, this website has been getting along fine without you and your personal vindictiveness is pathetically amusing. As the >100,000 daily page views indicate some people enjoy swatting back with satire.
I am not going to insult you with the same stuff you chose in your post, but it would be good if you had a bubbly bath and come back fully recovered.
I criticised the poster on Facebook when it was posted and I still stand by what I did. Contrary to popular belief, I do know what satire is but I felt it was inappropriate to use that image on that day. I’m not an easily offended person but as someone who has friends and family in Ukraine, it didn’t feel especially tactful to use the image on the same day 77 people were shot dead.
I understand that most people wouldn’t be in the same boat as me. In this day and age we’re bombarded with distressing images on the news from places such as Syria and normally I wouldn’t bat an eyelid at them. Whereas images from places where you have connections to have a lot more resonance.
Stu has to realise that people can have many different reasons for criticising that poster and to brand them “supposed yes supporters” for doing so is quite frankly insulting.
I think Rev Stu is seen as controversial by some independence supporters. Unfortunately, some seem to genuinely think if we are nice enough all the time to the bullies of the No campaign, they will leave us alone and we will sail through and win the referendum that way. However, as Johann Lamont would say: “In the real world”….
Riots, civil unrest? Well Boyd Tonkin will have had firsthand experience as he lives in England. Another article in the Spectator,referenced on Twitter, whines that Scotland’s toffs are too quiet over the independence referendum.
We must be boring the English press by just having meetings and leafletting and talking to each other on the referendum. You know, like we are just having civilised logical debate.
But then the Chancellor Mr Osborne wasn’t prepared to indulge in logical debate with us, nor the Prime Minister. We do get flying visits of various UK Ministers of State to deliver dire warnings, and there was the possibility love bombs by telecom, proposed by the UK Prime Minister to the “great British public” but that came to nothing except one delivered by proxy at a show.
But no debate.
We know how low they can go but they have the weaponry to go lower – as a few people have mentioned over the past while ( which I agree )I soon expect some sort of security issue to come up and the white Knight to come along and save us proving ” we’re better together “
“And coming from a Literary editor? That’s truly shameful.”
Probably he’d rather be a successful novelist.
“Why did he write it?”
Because he has an unbearable urge to write fiction
“What was he setting out to do?”
see above.
Rev, a few people discussing your site:
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8639#comments
scroll down near the bottom
What all of us ungrateful plebs in Scotland fail to appreciate, is that it is only by sending 50 odd Labour MPs and our oil money to Westminster that we are saved from such a gory fate.
Nice pre-emptive strike Rev.
Next time can you put up a picture of some puppies?
I think we’re due another “lovebomb” aright about now.
you are all getting it wrong,this is a coded messege to the unionists that Yes has won and they better start preparing for a cival war,i bet you would be suprized at how many legal firearms their is in a country that has BANNED them?
“Oh, of course: those who criticise you just aren’t getting it, amirite?”
That seems to be the case, yes.
“What was the point of the exercise, exactly?”
You didn’t read the article, then?
“it didn’t feel especially tactful to use the image on the same day 77 people were shot dead.”
What gave you the impression it was trying to be tactful? Satire is rarely tactful. In fact, it’s more often the exact opposite. Some might say that by definition it’s not tactful.
“Stu has to realise that people can have many different reasons for criticising that poster and to brand them “supposed yes supporters” for doing so is quite frankly insulting.”
All I meant by that line was that I couldn’t be bothered working out if any of those particular people were false-flags or not. I’m only too aware that some independence supporters aren’t Wings fans. It would be hard to miss.
@Heedtracker
That BBC link totally contradicts earlier announcements of the PCS vote in East Kilbride on the 18th Feb 2014 resulting in a 60% yes vote…
I’m confused!
Tony Little
As a former PCS member I did not think they would be for a ‘Yes’. I presume delegates from branches votes with their membership numbers similar to a block vote (getting members to vote for union elections in postal votes was a challenge).
Quite embarrassing for the No side to get not one vote considering how some union officials are rabid Labour. It is good that some branches did come out for a Yes vote. However one good thing is that all the branches now have to have open hustings so that all the members can hear both sides.
IMO the reaction is extreme because the result of the result is lopsided.
If No, then the elite will take it out on the whingeing Jocks but the independentists will regroup and carry on their peaceful and democratic battle to gain their end.
If Yes, Then while men of goodwill however they voted will unite to make the best independent Scotland that we can manage, those Nos for whom the very idea of the Scots casting off their, the Nos, privileged position will do their damnedest to make sure Scotland suffers.
Generalised oppression versus local terrorism 🙁
Hi Rev
can you give us a re-cap of all the MSM that have contacted you in a show of solidarity in support of democracy and to condem (sic) this sustained DOS?
Also, can we please have a running list of actual reports in the MSM to highlight this sinister behaviour.
Spot on here Rev. People in this country need to wake up and smell the coffee because a lot of them are in the dream of ‘we’re ‘British and wouldn’t behave like that’, simply trusting that the press and the Westminster lot are upstanding people. They can’t see that, infact, the press are out to infect their thinking and keep them where the Westminster govt wants them to be – terrified and easily manipulated. It is brutal, but they need somebody to drag them kicking and screaming out of their reverie about what is really going on with the MSM.
@ Grant Cruikshank you have got it exactly right ‘anyone with half a brain’ could have predicted how the journalists were going to use this against the Scottish people. But you see most people simply do not BELIEVE that others could be so vile and they will be lead like lambs to the slaughter. Meanwhile, self righteous, pretendy, lily white, sanctimonious preachers will stand idly by, keeping their hands clean and their ‘minds’ pure while Scotland is hung drawn and quartered by butchers. You have to fight fire with fire or be consumed by it. Westminster only cares about winning this. They don’t give a fig about the ordinary people, only about how they actually get over the winning line.
“The Victor will never be asked if he told the truth.” Adolf Hitler (1889-1945).
Sorry Rev, bit of a rant there, it’s been coming on for a few days.
Don’t know who knows about the teaching of the ancient chinese warlord Sun Tzu, he describes the use of fire as the last resort in any war fare. If used it should only be employed with consideration and care, strikes me that better together have reached that point but do not have the capacity do it with the mental capacity required.
westie7 – to update comments, please just type
‘page refresh’
without the quotes, then hit submit – otherwise, you’ll be toast!
@Weedeochandorris
“People in this country need to wake up and smell the coffee because a lot of them are in the dream of ‘we’re ‘British and wouldn’t behave like that’, simply trusting that the press and the Westminster lot are upstanding people. They can’t see that, infact, the press are out to infect their thinking and keep them where the Westminster govt wants them to be – terrified and easily manipulated. It is brutal, but they need somebody to drag them kicking and screaming out of their reverie about what is really going on with the MSM.”
Correct. They have been taken in by the whole British fair play message, feed to them by an establishment and state that actually loathes them. Unfortunately many people in Scotland have Stockholm Syndrome, and regard the abusive behaviour of the British state towards our nation as normal.
“can you give us a re-cap of all the MSM that have contacted you in a show of solidarity in support of democracy and to condem (sic) this sustained DOS?”
No problem!
There you go.
Agree that the Independent has gone over the top, but our “own” Herald is not above putting the boot in to the Yes campaign.
This time in the shape of Mark Smith (who has form) reviewing this coming week’s TV and Radio programmes. Apparently there is a programme called The Street on BBC 1 next Monday set in Glasgow, but this gives Smith licence to criticise the Yessers for someone swearing at a busker! Completely biased article, and the editor should switch him to a subject where his political views are not seen.
Might watch the programme, but since it’s a BBC production I’ll be wary.
Completely O/T, but aren’t we all glad that the Queen is coming to Scotland in June to launch .the new aircraft carrier. That’s the one which is costing twice as many billions as planned, has no suitable planes yet and has no purpose in its life. Perhaps Queenie will visit a few foodbanks while she’s here.
Boyd Tonkin might be more profitably engaged with the parlous state of England, especially after we’ve gone.
Wonga PLC will be the largest company as borrowing and lending are likely to be the only commercial activities remaining. Politicians of course, will retain the expense route to sufficiency.
@Alexandra-M-, hey don’t look at me! This is the biggest ever BBC, media vote NO FUD brainwashing campaign in the history of democracy outside of peace time. So can they get caught up in their own hoohaa? Yes they can.
It’s surprising to see critics of the Reverend’s satire too. Take satirists like Jonathan Swift with his famous and delicious recipes for cooking Irish children during the potato famine. Bad taste or satire? Check out who’s getting satirised first, is what I say.
@a2 –
I suspect you’ve hit a couple of consecutive nails on the heid.
On Grant’s contribution – we’ll see how the ‘argument’ develops, if he chooses to respond to Rev at 9.04.
But I want to make one point, and address it specifically to those who accuse us Cybernats of all-sorts: no matter how difficult it may be for the Cochers, Hothersalls and McColms of this world to acknowledge that WoS is a civilised place where people openly exchange views and concerns, they never point to examples of so-called ‘hate speech’ or incitement to violence.
That’s because they can’t. And the reason they can’t is because there are no examples to point to.
Grant made a powerful statement at 8.11. He obviously spent some time on the comment, believes what he’s saying, and, IMO, states his case well. Rev has responded. Neither have resorted to the kind of language routinely seen on the threads hosted by national newspapers, and there’s no reason to suppose that either will do so. And that is why, at least in part, Wings is now preferred as a source of referendum-related information over all of the newspapers.
Cochers/Hothersall/McColm won’t come here because they need us to be frothing fanatics – otherwise, their narrative turns to dust. They know their arguments would swiftly be pulled apart (in the nicest possible way, naturally).
Grant has a beef with Stu, and has voiced it. Fair enough – he and Rev will thrash it out, and the rest of us will enjoy watching it. That’s ‘debate’. That’s ‘democracy’. The MSM belters named above won’t ever dare do it, and that’s why they deserve nothing but scorn.
I’ve just finished watching a film…V for Vendetta…love it…for a second I mis-read the poster that is scattered throughout the film for the government in it…
“Strength through unity,
Unity through Faith!”
I thought I saw the word “fear” in place of faith and that BT had released an edited version…
@twenty14 I agree. If things (polls, etc.) keep going the way they are it won’t be long until the London-based establishment elite start weighing up the pros and cons of attempting to manufacture a ‘false-flag’ major security incident in Scotland, or perhaps even in rUK (probably London) which will be blamed (with planted ‘evidence’) on the Yes side, probably ‘cybernats’ by a large proportion of the MSM.
Because of the prestige, territory and billions of hard-petro-dollar-cash the UK establishment elite are set to lose, we should not underestimate how desperate/dirty/low they will be/play in the coming months…and we have to be as prepared as we possibly can to counteract/defeat whatever they try to do/throw at us…
The media are pretty much like the unionist politicians, who seem to have all but given up on keeping Scotland(or rather our resources)and are now positioning themselves for after the split.
Those BT politicians who were toughest on those damn Scots will hope they ingratiated themselves to the ruk electorate enough to get their noses to remain in the trough while deflecting the blame onto those who did not shout loud enough to stop us leaving.
The media have pretty much decided we are going and are also now merely trying to tap into any anti-Scottish feeling which has been generated by the No campaign to sell their papers after we go.
The risk for BT and it’s complicit media is that when the financial sky falls in,how will the public react when they finally realise that those lovely Scottish Nationals who offered to help them were actually the good guys after all.
Just a thought..
“westie7 – to update comments, please just type
‘page refresh’
without the quotes, then hit submit – otherwise, you’ll be toast!”
Actually it doesn’t matter if the quotes are there or not. Anything containing those two words consecutively will do.
Perhaps in future we should refer to the above excuse for MSM journalism as ‘The Tonkin Guff Incident’…
It’s just another way of playing to peoples fears and I think we are justified to be fearful of the British Establishment and what it may do, it’s the spectre of yes may not mean yes and the way us Scot’s will do anything for a quiet life but thankfully we have not needed to take up arms but we just need to take up a pen and put a cross in a box and then see what the morning brings..
@ Marcia – I had to laugh all the way through that blog especially when it came to commenting on WOS.
Slightly entertaining and a bit dotty
I felt like pouring a G&T while Euphemia prepared the Earl Grey.
I see Rev got the last word.
If I remember correctly it was the Balkan states that were instrumental in the starting of WW1 due to their disputes, then after the war the allies had a great idea, lets force them to be one big country, communism came and went and they are still fighting. They became their separate states and still hate each other.
Dont you just love it when we are compared to a scenario that resembles nothing like what is happening here. But I suppose the south east still see us as uncivilised barbarians.
On that note,
My nephew is coming up from Kent to visit my sister and asked if trains and buses would be running on a Sunday ! Thats true bless him
Alexandra
The PCS conducted ballots in all its branches and each branch delegate went to the conference with their branch nomination. A lot of branches voted Yes and it would seem a fair number voted Neutral. Neutral is the default PCS position, it isn’t affiliated to any party. It was the recommended position by the Union but it wanted to give people the opportunity to speak. In my branch one of those that spoke up for neutral was a Yes voter. We voted Yes though. It appears not a single branch voted No.
The count is a little misleading because what they are counting is card votes. Neutral might have pipped Yes by a few votes in a branch but Neutral will as winner take all the card votes in that branch.
There weren’t no NO voters at all. There were a few in my branch. However, they won no branches so they got zero card votes. In fact in terms of total votes Yes chased Neutral hard. No was nowhere.
I hope that explains things clearly – I had a wee malt or two after the rugby so it may be gibberish.
Is the guy trying to get a job with the BBC?
The article is a piece of racist filth. By far the worst yet.
Stu – one lives and learns. 🙂
SoS ICM poll coming out the morn according to AW at UKPR.
Only thing I can say is have BT been briefed? If not pre-poll tweets etc from them, might be good.
“Unfortunately many people in Scotland have Stockholm Syndrome, and regard the abusive behaviour of the British state towards our nation as normal.”
Muttley; So true,
weedeochandorris; respect.
I agree with your bringing the article to our notice, I have said before the UK media is stirring up trouble, everywhere.
Just look at all the anti Scottish crap they are putting out there and their by definition, mainly English readers are getting more and more rabid.
I view this as once more, their effort to scare Scotland.
The big problem though is that they actually will effect people, making them more and more anti Scottish. That is storing up resentment when little existed, it is utterly shameful, yet we cannot really get back at them as they are unaccountable, for something that could prove to be criminal.( heavily racist ).
Our best defence is to secure a YES vote by a big margin.
Sorry Rev, I know what you say about satire, but that graphic may worry some people unnecessarily, I am uncomfortable with it myself.However, the article is very good and highlights how poisonous the Unionists really are.
Let us hope they do not achieve what they hope to.
Weedeochandorris… powerful post and a wee reply from me, that you are not alone in those thoughts.
I read The Independent article BEFORE I saw your poster..
😮
Do you know who will win the referendum?
😉
A bit of displacement activity there from Boyd Tonkin. BT – hah! Another one, a poisonous worm.
Don’t these guys have a job to do? Like being honest and truthful to the facts? Or are they dazed with too much luvviebombing?
“‘The Tonkin Guff Incident’…”
Dammit
Are they trying to incite riots?
OT
Next live stream event from Shettleston Juniors, Glasgow this coming Monday 24th from 7:30pm
“Too Wee, Too Poor, Too Stupid”
Ivan McKee & MD Michelle Thomson from Business for Scotland plus
Jim Sillars, Bruce Morton & Donald Reid
Live stream http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive
http://www.facebook.com/ScottishIndependenceLiveEvents
http://www.youtube.com/IndependenceLive
The vitriol and total nonsense that is now coming out of Westminster confirms its now conducting a scorched earth policy in its attempts to intimidate and bully the people of Scotland into not voting YES.
It also confirms that Scotland really must have something extremely valuable that Westminster desperately wants to keep it for itself.
Fortunately more and more people in Scotland have worked that one out already.
The mood here tonight seems positively downbeat? Since we are winning I don’t know why this would be.
I’m actually upbeat as that is my nature, take it on the chin then move on. My old man who’s now left us sadly had two sayings. These were:
“Get in there with the head down” and “You can only eat two chickens a day.”
I think I now know what he meant. I’m upbeat today, spoke to a few folk this afternoon and the ease with how you can persuade them to vote Yes is astonishing. Try it for yourselves.
My view is there are NO really committed No supporters just people who need a word in their ear. Get in there with the head down!
This might sound really stupid, but, just getting used to these tags things. How do you get the type to go back to normal after you’ve used the i or b?
Only the very naive believe that the onslaught from the BBC/ UK press / Westminster politicians and British business leaders will not become more vitriolic over the next seven months.
The Arab Spring is a reminder of what happens when individuals stand up against the vested interests of the Establishment and wealthy business interests.
Thank goodness we have WOS and other internet outlets like Business for Scotland or the Jimmy Reid Foundation and the National Collective but at the end of the day it is up to everyone to get up off their rear end and join your local YES campaign and knock on doors and speaks to voters and answer their genuine concerns.
The level of ignorance out there is appalling as I have found NHS workers who refuse to believe that the Scottish Health Service has been independent since 1948 and fall for the unionist propaganda that we couldn’t afford to bail out the banks.
Yes we can win but you can’t rely on others. Jousting with unionists online is not enough.
Whilst I agree with some folk above that the London media are s*** stirring, we must always be aware of their self- preservation instinct. When English sentiment overreaches in some unpleasant fashion (some Scot getting mugged in London or such like) Salmond will be blamed, be assured of that.
The smarter the journalists are,the better off society is. For to a degree people read the press to inform themselves,and the better the teacher the better the student body.
Warren Buffet.
Sadly Boyd Tonkin, doesn’t make the grade.
Friday night’s drinks were good. I had a go at Joe the trade-union labour man. I asked him outright what he thought would be the result. He conceded Yes would win. He also agreed that Ms Lamont was a disaster but couldn’t explain how she got to where she has.
I guess I was quite forceful and others must have heard the soundbites. “one on four children born into poverty, so much for 300 years of togetherness”, “Hope has a name, in is Yes” etc.
Joe had related how he was goaded into hitting a fellow trade unionist in a pub when called a Tory” The Osborne/Balls thing must have hurt. More next Friday.
I was one of the commenters who though the poster was in bad taste. I agree with some of the criticisms above. I am not a “supposed” Yes voter. There is no such thing. I understood exactly what you were driving at and tried my best not to be too critical as I have laughed at, and made comparisons with, situations similar. It was eerily prophetic though.
OT,but does no one speak about “separation”anymore?
mr thms – ‘do you now who will win the referendum’? Yes. 🙂
Eeek – should read ‘know’. 🙁
@Another Union Dividend
“but at the end of the day it is up to everyone and join your local YES campaign and knock on doors and speaks to voters and answer their genuine concerns.
The level of ignorance out there is appalling as I have found NHS workers who refuse to believe that the Scottish Health Service has been independent since 1948 and fall for the unionist propaganda that we couldn’t afford to bail out the banks.
Yes we can win but you can’t rely on others. Jousting with unionists online is not enough.”
Yes, I think the more people we can get out campaigning on the streets the better our chances. Obviously some will not be able to for a variety of reasons. We really have only 6 months to go now.
Boy oh boy. What does it take to get through to some people? See the thread about Eurovision. PCS were never going to endorse either side. I’ll repeat for the hard of thinking. PCS were never going to endorse either side. To do so would have been suicide.
That’s not to say most members are not Yes or Yes leaning – they are. But for God’s sake don’t clutch at lies printed in the Herald designed to set Yes up for a fall.
Satire always treads a fine line.
It’s not always funny. It punctures things. That’s its job.
Remember how Swift punctured the ideal of womanhood?
Thus finishing his grand survey,
Disgusted Strephon stole away
Repeating in his amorous fits,
Oh! Celia, Celia, Celia shits!
(http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/180934 ) for those who want the full blast….
We’ve all become mighty precious over things we or others may find offensive. Swift was loathed in his time too.
I didn’t enjoy your poster, Stu. I thought it added poison. But looking at it again, I suspect you just have the courage to tell things as they are. Don’t expect to be loved though…(at least not for a few decades) 🙂
Have to admit I saw the image and thought it was in bad taste but I didn’t comment because I was surprised it hasn’t already been used that way and expected it to be. So that put me in a kind of ambivalent frame of mind.
I hate propaganda and sinking low and personal attacks. But if they’re being used relentlessly against you sometimes you have to fight back.
All that said, my undecided sister who’s too frazzled with young kids to pay much attention told me today she’s now leaning very much Yes – because the media stories are so ridiculous. I think some of the stuff only those involved have been seeing is now filtering through to the mainstream and they don’t like it.
Of course, as soon as it has actually been used, the picture looks ace so good job.
Hand and Shrimp,
Thank you for explaining! Much appreciated 🙂
@Ian Brotherhood 9.55pm
You just saved me 2 hours of trying to conjure up my thoughts- entirely
100% spot on
They’re totally fucked because we don’t behave the way the dearly wish us to do
Haven’t read all posts but re PCS votining according to R$ news at 10pm of 18,000 members 6,000 voted Yes and all the rest were neutral.
My take is that the No’s knew they would lose so voted neutral allowing it to be spun by the MSM as has so far been shown.
Today is my first day exploring the issue of Scottish Independence. I am in complete ignorance of the situation. This is my first comment.
As an 58-year old American intensely active in local politics I don’t understand why it seems that England is agitating for conflict with Scotland, in a world with so many real conflicts, over what should be a logical referendum after three hundred years.
Have the English no unsolved social problems of their own that they should need to create them in the press? Instead of gracefully noting that after all of these years surely the will of the people should count for something?
Is Scotland to be praised for its culture and then treated as if it were populated only by football hooligans?
@cath –
‘…sometimes you have to fight back.’
Kin right. And we all are, in our own ways.
Respect to you, and your sister.
@Mealer
“OT,but does no one speak about “separation”anymore?”
Nope, we prefer to talk about liberation.
Marcia – Herald front page please 🙂
Page re-fresh
@Mealer says:
OT,but does no one speak about “separation”anymore?
You are right. Mentions of “separation” are at an all-time low.
Maybe when you get to the stage where the good folks at BT can see that YES might actually win, it is time for stronger words.
I heard Danny Alexander on BBC Radio Scotland news this morning.
He had obviously been rehearsing, and polishing his weasel words.
He signed-off with a form of words that implied that we would lose the Pound (and be scarily currency-less) on the morning of 19th September, if we were foolish enough to vote YES.
@ Weedeochandorris
the trick is to use the forward slash (inside the chverons) before the b or the i, at the end of the highlighted part.
twenty14
Never mind the Herald front page, what about the “New” SOS front page, choking to see this icm poll!
Tomorrow’s Sunday Herald front page;
http://twitpic.com/dwcyji
No word of TNS yet, but:
Kevin Pringle ?@KevinJPringle 7 mins
New Panelbase #indyref poll tomorrow – Yes/No gap closes by 2 points, and nearly 2-to-1 think Westminster attacks on indy benefit #Yes most.
While waiting on Marcia to give us tomorrow’s Herald front page I nipped over.
How does this look to the undecided who look for Indyref Information
All on the front page –
” Blow for Yes as PCS union decides to stay neutral on indyref ” ( main headline )
” Boost for Yes camp as PCS trade union moves to back independence ” ( in their comment section but still on main page )
They need one of our School Kids to peruse their forums before going live
And while all this pretendy stuff is in the media, about rabid cybernats and frothing freedom fighters wading in the gore of passing Englishmen, as we speak people are having a whale of a time at the National Collective Stirling launch, where they are full to capacity, with queues at the door.
Where is the Better Together equivalent?
S_S
From the Herald about the poll
Of the 188 polled who considered Scotland as their home nation, 52% indicated they supported the SNP’s call for independence – 34% “strongly” and 18% “somewhat” against 48% who disagreed.
:: Vision Critical surveyed 2,060 British adults on February 19-20.
I have never heard of “Vision Critical”
THE SUNDAY POLLS
Panelbase shows 2 points shaved off gap between YES & NO according to Kevin Pringle
https://twitter.com/KevinJPringle/status/437359332326666240
*sorry, should be no word of ICM poll yet!
@ Marcia – Muchos gratias
@Weedeochandorris says:
How do you get the type to go back to normal after you’ve used the i or b?
You put a /i or /b (inside a pair of pointy brackets).
While I agree that the media are intent on promoting a no vote I think it is as well to remember that the MSM mainly aim at their domestic audience.
It can’t be easy finding a target to fuel anger and indignation every single day, but that is what they do: the object does not matter very much: it is all divide and rule with an admixture of “look, a (dangerous) squirrel”
It is Scotland’s turn. It is often benefits claimants, or single mothers, or moslems – whatever gets the readership frothing at the mouth with self righteous indignation and/or fear.
There are a number of hate figures and we have joined their ranks. It makes me very proud….
Vision Critical is another of these online marketing companies that have sprung up lately like Scotplus.
http://www.research-live.com/news/people/vision-critical-boosts-uk-office-with-kantars-carter/4008282.article
The photograph that the Sunday Herald are using for their independence coverage;
http://twitpic.com/dwcz98
I completely agree that they – the establishment – are shit stirring big time.
I think the likes of Sandiwotsit and the others on news quiz are dupes who don’t realise what they are doing but are being used to stir up resentment.
Think also HIGNFY.
I don’t know what it is about most Scots but i think we have been put down for so many years that we have developed a fairly strong armoured skin and therefore I don’t think we will rise to the occasion and react violently.
All riots in recent years have been in England – when was the last time it happened in Scotland?
What worries me if the establishment realise we will take it on the chin until the referendum, is the introduction of agent provocateurs.
Remember the beebs involvment in Orgreave – did anyone get done for that?
No matter what happens this country will never be the same again.
o/t – but apparently we’re not allowed to fly/hold the Saltire at Sochi ( curling arena )
@ GrantC,Frost, Do you,s know what a bear trap is,its tae faw inta, an the MSM dont disapoint, maybe when you,s are here a litte while longer you,s might understand.
Well done REV, hook line sinker,they bottom feeders are poor fare fur you Rev,
@Marcia (11.11) –
Ha!
Brilliant.
A Lad Insane right enough – I’ll never see Ozzy again without picturing that stripe across his face.
Ronnie Anderson – hi there, how’s the wee yin doing and what did they decide to call her?
@Marcia 11.11 Sooo Bowie lol
Put up 3 lots of comments today and only one appeared ! Annoying !
Pity the campaign isn’t being run on positive lines by the unionists and their chums in the media.
It’s the negativity, lies & bias which risk pushing us towards what Tonkin is scaremongering about – not the possibility of a 49% unionist minority.
Can someone ask him about 1979? Over 50% of the votes were for independence.
Marcia – given Ozzy’s fearty fleeing from any inteviews, will they reveal a pic of him from the back showing his yellow streak?
I thought the image was very powerful and very disturbing. Which is exactly how it was intended. I can also see how it might upset some people. However, the caption “Better Together – because you can’t handle it by yourselves” shows exactly what is supposed to be taken from the image.
The point is that Stu doesn’t give a monkey’s if he upsets some people and indeed that’s probably the object of the exercise. We all know him well enough by now to know that if he’s pushed on something like that, he’ll push back. So no matter how offended someone is, Yes voter or not, there’s nothing they are going to be able to say that will change his mind about it.
The choice is a simple one. Get over it, or find somewhere else to interact with the referendum.
Morag – what you said. 🙂
I’ve been feeling quite depressed today, don’t know why. Didn’t sleep well after accidentally catching a BBC programme where the poor and needy were lambasted for not taking responsibility for themselves by assorted talking heads on 6-figure salaries. I never realised how pernicious Roger Scruton is.
English posters on another forum declaring that a No vote is a foregone conclusion and they’re all fed up with whining Scots who hate the English.
We’re still going to win though.
Panelbase figures out
YES 37%
NO 47%
Und : 16%
Observer and Daily Totygraph says Union is essential for North Sea Oil . Another Cameron assault on Scotland.
Headline wrong of course it should be North Sea Oil essential for UK.
How insulting to suggest that an independent Scotland could not manage to fund future North Sea Oil development.
Poor Norway separatist managed it.
Morag – take heart, we will win this. After all, it’s awfully difficult to rouse people to vote for nothing ‘what do we want – erm, nothing – when do we want it – erm, always?’
Totally o/t – are you gong to the WoS meet-up in Glasgow on April 4th?
Keen to go but unsure of coming home on late-night (how late?) train from Edin, poss alone. Good to have a fellow passeger along. Could continue discussion in Quarantine?
@liz-
I don’t know precisely how many commenters have been banned from this place, but I don’t remember any being bagged for trying to solicit volunteers/arms for some fledgling SRA-type outfit.
The insults, via all MSM outlets, aim to make us appear to be extremists – it’s not working.
Will they resort to false-flags?
Here’s hoping they don’t.
But if they do?
That won’t work either.
Scotland will be an independent nation – again – regardless of what they do. Voting ‘Yes’ on Sp 18th is just the first step – then we start the work required to prepare us for renaissance.
Are those panelbase figures an improvement?
Still astonished after all the vitriol and insults 47% No.
That should read from Glasgow to Edinburgh! Doh!
For comparison the last Panelbase/Sunday Times poll on 29th January had
YES 37%
NO 49%
Und 14%
@T Jenny 11.30 Baby,s doing great thanks, Carly is her name, & shes been sleeping great to.
Just caught R5 Live mentioning the papers, ”Cameron says the Union is crucial for North Sea oil”. Surely not a rerun of too wee etc and the volatile rubbish, so its best Westminster handle the worthless stuff, AGAIN.
Don’t think Scotland has ever been on the front pages as much as it has in the last few months. Have I missed something? 🙂
Liz
I think it is a decrease of 2% in the No figure. So despite nearly a month of negative press headlines and on tv/radio the No vote decreases. The official campaign period begins on 31 May when the Yes campaign starts in earnest.
Thanks Ronnie – that brought a smile to my face.
I have also been feeling a bit down but we have to win for the future so the young ones don’t hav eto put up with being 2nd class citizens in their own country.
Idiot woman? What does gender have to do with her comment? Idiot, yes. Woman? Irrelevant .
Good Marcia – we have to be positive.
Link to ‘Tattie Scones’ blog, explaining the spin put on Herald’s PCS vote headline.
http://t.co/bgBhEcrOsI
Ronnie Anderson 11.48 – Carly is a lovely name. Her parents are very lucky she’s proving to be a good wee soul who sleeps well and gives her parents a chance of some much needed R&R. 🙂
@ Liz, thats why we,re here,an an no conna break inta a Cliff Richard song ( darling we,re the Young Ones ) lol, cheer up
never frown in the face of a clown lol,ask Ian fur some o the Lambrini.
I’ve got friends in the centre of Kiev, one of whom has been guarding another friend in a makeshift hospital to ensure security forces don’t take her. I’m not offended by satire. However, I think there is a parallel to be drawn between Ukraine and Scotland. Not the one some establishment writers think i.e. nationalist extremism/ideology. Rather, i think the parallel is that if a regime continues a path of cronyism and corruption, making those in the inner circle and the privileged ever richer, causing the gap between rich and poor to get bigger and bigger, with a squeeze on the middle, then there appears a tipping point. That is what Ukraine saw, and unfortunately opportunists may seek to take advantage. Perhaps if the regime had been paying attention rather than filling their pockets they could have avoided a constitutional crisis.
Hopefully the point I’m making is clear enough.
Marcia, Apart from the appalling Headline and sub headers, the side bar seems to be summing up the whole weekends news with David Bowie track titles.
What is it with this trite obsession with celebs mere mention of Scottish Independence. Just lazy journalism or trying to develop a running meme for future use?
Pitiful excuse for a national Sunday front cover.
This comments thing is really weird. It’s like a time machine, with things disappearing every time you come back.
T Jenny, if I go on 4th April I will have to drive because there’s no other way to get there on time, or get back – I live in the sticks. I might be able to offer a lift back to Edinburgh if you’re stuck though.
Talk to and convince one person per month on the merits of Independence.
The NO campaign have no message and no activists. Ignore the media and stay positive.
We are winning!
Focus – See the future post a YES vote. Even the hangover will be pleasant (well worth it at least)
If you haven’t got a flagpole/poster/lapel badge in place by May you have to post an apology on wings.
@Marcia, as far as Im aware the G/Daughter was back at work that week (Thurs nite) its in the genes, but she has a Good roll model in my Daughter.
@Bunter
A bit more on Cameron warning Scotland that North Sea oil is in danger If it’s a YES vote.
“I promise we will continue to use the UK’s broad shoulders to invest in this vital industry.”
Cameron will also tell the unwashed of Scotland that England will take care of all that Oily stuff for us.
I can see another swing to YES in the next week or two. Keep it up Mr Establishment.
Link – Cameron visit to Aberdeen.
Cameron Aberdeen Speech Link.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10655849/Cabinets-warning-to-Scotland-over-North-Sea-oil.html
@ Clootie , diz Wee Sheds count.
@Calgacus Macandrews. Thanks for that. 🙂
@ronnie anderson – LOLZ
I give up. People have been warned against clutching at straws in the MSM re the PCS story and still invest huge significance in a MSM poll.
Words fail.
@Sciehallion! Schiehallion! Thanks to you too! 🙂
They could of course illustarted the article with something nearer home.
@Marcia
OMG I nearly shat my pants. I don’t have words to describe that picture of Osborne so I’ll just say this. Goodbye.
David Cameron’s speech kin Aberdeen to state that North Sea Oil needs Westminster’s broad shoulders(&deep pockets) to secure funding and further investment in extraction.
Broad shoulders built up using North Sea oil wealth. He is talking about using our own resource monies to further line their own pockets.
A good Eton education in brass necked duplicity and unabashed superiority!
Morag – Thanks, that’s a grand offer, however, not being a driver myself and remembering that you live in the borders, I feel that dropping me in Edinburgh may well take you more than a wee bit off your route home.
I remembe that Conan was sounding out folk prepared to share a taxi back, and if that doesn’t transpire then, mayhap a few glasses of vino will make me gallus enough to travel back home by train, alone if needs be, or chicken out and get a taxi back.
Ian Brotherhood – at this point I should ask you to put me down for attending on 4 April, as can’t remember if done so already or not!
Conan – are you still planning to go?
@Morag
11:26 For once I agree with you 🙂
11:31 Get a grip woman 🙂
Morag get in there with the head down and undoubtedly we will win.
@ronnie anderson
Congrats on the new arrival. Get her out there polling, somebody will kiss her.
T Jenny, I’m not that far from Edinburgh really, and I wouldn’t see anybody stuck.
Thepnr, what do you mean, “for once”? You should always agree with me!
McDougall tweets this on the ICM poll
https://twitter.com/blairmcdougall/status/437388464841953280/photo/1/large
Apparently, BT up 5% according to him.
Morag
I do really, just trying to get you to bite, and you did 🙂
Morag – OK, we’ll see what happens on the night. Getting excited already at meeting more WoSers. 🙂
The front page of the SoS also saying that “despite nationalists winning the argument on currency and Europe” which is a bit of an admission from that lot.
There is no update from James over on Scot goes Pop yet, will wait for the analysis.
Why did they even bother to give the myopic idiot’s nonsense air time? She only highlights her own depressingly narrow and ill-informed view of the world. Not that I haven’t heard similar rubbish from elsewhere.
The most powerful journalism in the past has frequently used shocking images. I’m sure most can recall images of famines that broke the veil on those issues in the past. Charities also use shocking images to highlight the plight of people and animals around the world.
Why though the UK press uniquely insist on doom and gloom on a remarkably peaceful process, I don’t know (well, aside from their union bias and PROJECT FEAR motiviations). They seem to be constantly dragging the tone of things down into the dirt and revelling in it when they do manage it. Just look at the shameful performance by many elected represntitives on social media (supposed public servants who don’t seem to take the job seriously). There should be wall-to-wall praise for how the campaign has developed over years, using democracy and the sharing of ideas and various opinions instead of the violence they conjure up in images or writing. They live in a bizarre bubble that puts them at odds with the international media and the world at large.
@Buckiebraes
I’m kinda with you on The Cheviot…
To me it always had a very subtle anti-indy nuance, although I think this was not in the writing per se, but in the direction and performance of some of the participants.
In that respect, it was the antithesis of ‘Scotch on the Rocks’. Hurd had clearly written what he intended to be an anti-indy work, but its direction and acting made into rather the opposite. So much so, that the beeb resolved never to show it again.
It looks like Mr. Tonkin has an imagination rivaled only by Mr. Tolkien. The big difference is that one of them is a writer.
@Appleby
Journalism as we believed it to be is dead. All we are fed is propaganda to suit the encumbents.
Posts like yours though expose them for what they are. Worthless.
crisiscult says (12:01): “parallel … between Ukraine and Scotland”
I think the potential for such a parallel as you outline does exist. However, in my view the danger is that such a parallel is more likely to develop in the rUK following Scotland’s independence than it is in Scotland itself. Even if there’s a NO vote, it seems more likely that “middle England” and the increasingly impoverished inner-city poor south of the border will be the first to rise up. London has seen plenty of violent outbursts, against the poll tax and against capitalist exploitation; it wouldn’t take much to cause yet more violence.
Anyone heard any more about those five water-cannons recently “procured” by the Home Office. I could be wrong but I think they were being shipped over from N.Ireland.
I can’t help imagining the water-cannons in action being used against protesting flood victims. 🙂
As ever, I view the reaction many have to the Reverend’s acerbic and uncompromising manner with a bit of bemusement and no little frustration.
Some of the greatest satire is deeply unpleasant and horrifically offensive to people’s sensibilities. This type of satire is usually called Juvenalian, named for the Roman satiriest Juvenal. This is compared to Horatian satire, which is usually good-natured, mild, and light-hearted. The Simpsons, Dr. Strangelove, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn are typical examples of Horatian satire.
Juvenalian satires, however, are frequently relentless, savage, and openly contemptuous of their subjects. Wag the Dog, Farenheit 451, Lord of the Flies, Naked Lunch, and Nineteen Eight-Four are Juvenalian satires. None of them are particularly funny, and in fact many are deeply unpleasant. Sometimes they can still be funny (The Thick of It, Yes Minister, Brass Eye, A Modest Proposal, American Psycho) while also being horrendously offensive, but humour is not necessary.
I’m going to keep posting this every time the subject comes up:
I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or speak, or write, with moderation. No! No! Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen;—but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest—I will not equivocate—I will not excuse—I will not retreat a single inch—AND I WILL BE HEARD. The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal, and to hasten the resurrection of the dead.
– William Lloyd Garrison
77 people died in Kiev. This is a tragedy.
Do you know what else is a tragedy? 10,000 people died within six months after losing their benefits, because Atos proclaimed them “fit to work.” Hundreds of them died during their assessment. Thousands of people have lost their homes because the Environment Agency are run by climate change deniers in the pocket of the Fracking industry. 1 in 5 children in the UK are born into poverty, and are the first generation in centuries to be poorer and unhealthier than their parents. The UK goverment, supposedly in the grip of austerity, has outright refused international aid on several occassions (emergency funds to alleviate victims of the Bedroom tax, supplies and anti-flood equipment from the Netherlands) because they have to be the Big Men in Power, and would rather people suffer than accept help from their neighbors.
This is the problem: comparing an independent Scotland to Ukraine is particularly offensive when you consider the sorry state of the UK right now. There are certain unionists who will stop at nothing to stop the Scottish people from exercising their democratic will, up to and including putting the fear of war and terror into them. George Galloway and Ian Paisley have roused up despicable sectarian hatreds; Ian Smart projected the fear of a xenophobic uprising against the Poles and Pakistanis; and right here, we have an article in a supposedly liberal newspaper suggesting that lessons could be learned from the chaos happening in Kiev.
These people want us to remain in a union out of fear, so that we can continue to have our democratic rights suppressed or ignored, our people put in danger from a nuclear white elephant, our children impoverished, and young men & women sent to die on imperialist wars. They are warning us against escaping a house that’s on fire, because there might be a bigger fire outside.
Oh, I didn’t realise there was a WoS meeting actually going ahead. I can’t imagine what might be unleashed at such a concentration of VILE SEPRATISTS. 😉
“Agree that the Independent has gone over the top, but our “own” Herald is not above putting the boot in to the Yes campaign.”
I think that the Herald is probably the most even-handed of the broadsheets, in that it has both pro- and anti- articles; often in the same issue.
Appleby – Well, the only way to find out – is to come along. 🙂
I see the tendency of the last few weeks of Kevin McKenna to return to zany comic relief has resurfaced again
He is the latest to have a go at misrepresenting “named person” help for kids and families as some evil interference, somewhat counter to the view of charities and organisations involved, some of whom feels it does not go far enough in extending protection
The death toll with the Atos system, etc. is astonishing. Where else can people get away with causing the deaths of thousands and not face prison or any punishment for inflicting such harm? It is the shame of the UK and it has done nothing to remove that mark.
John Curtice has a bit on tonight’s ICM poll on his blog. The poll shows Yes at unchanged, but no up 5 points on their last poll.
However, he says there was a methodology change since the last poll that showed a jump in support for yes due to overweighting of younger voters in their last poll (I hope that makes sense to others more than me!) – even so the yes support is up 3% since September.
There are also some interesting comments on the proportion of Labour voters who disbelieve Osbourne and Borroso.
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/02/second-post-currency-row-poll-still-no-clear-impact/
TJenny, I’ll see if I can manage on the day. Should be interesting and a laugh. At least we’ll all be mostly on the same page and it can be relaxing instead of fretting over the debate or the latest news. 🙂 Where are the details for it or is it yet to be finalised? Just make sure no one accidently says “p@ge refresh” on the day or *poof!*…
@Steve B
It seems for all the big deal made of it in the media that the currency row has fallen rather flat when it comes to the voters. Not something they must feel is too important or are too worried about (rightly assuming something will be worked out on the day, no doubt), despite the mileage in press statements and newspaper columns.
If the big guns aren’t making a real impact they’ll have to rethink what they are doing. Making a cast-iron positive case and promises they can’t renage on (virtually impossible now and with a bad history of this in play) are the only real way to make a difference, I think.
Appleby – Ian Brotherhood is scoping out venues for the meet-up. Don’t think he has finalised which venue but it’ll be in Glasgow evening of the 4th April.
@Taranaich
Salute you sir. Post of the Weekend.
@Appleby
I totally agree – the supoosed double, triple or quadruple whammy (if you enclude Ziggy) of the last week or so hasn’t made much difference – it’s made yes voters more determined and made undecides more yes leaning – and it really has pissed off many Labour voters which could have far-reaching consequences.
You’ll see though that Scotland on Sunday and spinning this one poll for all it’s worth on their front page saying that the Yes momentum had been halted – well I suppose they wanted to get their money’s worth 🙂
And am I alone in assuming that Cameron, when he brings his cabinet up to Aberdeen on Monday, may have some more “love” bombs in his back pocket to lob at us?
Here is one for all you cybernats out there sitting in front of the flickering screen of a smartphone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u3BRY2RF5I
“Appleby – Ian Brotherhood is scoping out venues for the meet-up. Don’t think he has finalised which venue but it’ll be in Glasgow evening of the 4th April.”
I realise, that being in the largest population concentration, Glasgow is the natural centre for many things, especially football or concerts, but is it really the epi-centre of WOS readership?
Jast asking.
My money would be on somewhere which wouldn’t be too far from Bathgate, ironically.
TMitJ – love that vid/ad – but love this more – in case you haven’t seen it yet – the cat + budgie ad with Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell doing the music – just Fab. 🙂
http://www.tvadmusic.co.uk/2014/02/freeview-cat-budgie/
@Grant Cruikshank, you say you know what satire is, then say you know what’s meant to be funny?
Grant, the Rev explained that satire isn’t always funny, so you clearly don’t know what satire is and this is probably why you are in such a state.
I’m always suspicious of people who post on Wings, claiming to support Yes, but complaining about the revs morals.
There’s violence all over the planet Grant. I live in Thailand, I should know!
Stop squealing and get over yourself, no one is diminishing the fear and pain that these poor people are going through, What we are speaking about is how the MSM wont care about these people and use that fear and pain as a propaganda weapon against the people of Scotland.
chicmac – meeting halfway would also be a good idea for another WoS meet-up, but this one’s being suggested and organised by Ian Brotherhood and ergo it’s his choice of where and when.
Nothing to stop us organising another elsewhere, and I would obvs hope for Edinburgh. I remember the Rev being less than enthused at the venues available in Bathgate.
@ Liz,
I agree Liz, how can anyone still support ‘No’, let alone 47%!
However, a lot of people are only just beginning to search out information about independence and what it will mean.
Since most of these people will get most of their info from the MSM they will think that independence is the disaster that the MSM have been screaming at them about for the past year…and more!
However, most people in Scotland when polled have been saying that they no longer trust the MSM and are turning increasingly to on-line news (like Wings) for their information.
This is what’s causing the increase in Yes and this is also why Wings has came under media attack as well as this Ddos attack.
They will not stop us though and deep down inside they know this.
Don’t worry Liz, we will win this referendum. 🙂
Stuart
BBC 24 Hour News at about 2.45 am – group of four pundits, with the usual one Englishman who thinks Scotland is full of gullible idiots following Salmond like sheep. None debate the issues, only how smarter Cameron or Osborne is compared to “naive” Salmond. Gavin Esler chairing.
Another example for the ever-mounting pile: “BBC discussion junks balance of political views in favour of dissing Scottish ambitions unchallenged.
@Taranaich : I second chicmac, your post was excellent. What Atos are doing/enabling is little short of legalised murder.
Confession time: when I first saw the “BT Glasgow” poster, I thought it was simply using a scene from some generic zombie movie. It made sense as such, a fun pisstake of BT’s fear tactics. Now knowing that the image is real and from current events, the poster makes even more sense. The forces of repression are real, and they exist in the UK as well as in Ukraine. It is just that they have come out of the shadows in Ukraine.
Thank heavens for the rise in “citizen journalism” and the fact that almost everyone can take photos and videos, to prove what is really happening in conflict situations. The internet is giving us a level playing field.
Just in case anyone is interested in helping LFI raised funds for literature here is a link to their Indiegogo campaign.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/labour-for-independence-campaign
What I’m wondering is how Mr. Tonkin was able to write his piece whilst wearing thick protective gloves. At least that is what I would be wearing if I were about to release a dangerous squirrel in to the wild.
Here is something for your protection, just in case you get cornered by such a dangerous rodent whilst inappropriately attired.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/learn-to-speak-squirrel-in-four-easy-lessons/2012/04/09/gIQAV8Jr6S_story.html
Further to earlier comparisons drawn between the Ukraine and Scotland, lets not forget our differences. The Ukraine experienced Nazi occupied within living memory, which was supported by some Ukrainian nationalists as a means of securing independence from the Soviet Union. The following years saw the Ukraine devastated by bloody civil war and Nazi genocide. I would imagine there are some old scores being settled now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_collaborationism_with_the_Axis_powers
The SoS polls story
http://archive.is/RhDUw
Good news time – Cameron and his ‘Cabinet’ – does this include the ginger rodent wearing his ‘kilt’ – will be in Aberdeen to reassure oil industry giants that they’ve no need for fear ’cause the Westminster Government will keep backing all their efforts in the North Sea. After all it was only the ‘broad shoulders’ of the UK that helped them overcome their difficulties in getting the oil out and all the way to Cruden Bay in 1975.
It was the same UK Gov that hid the McCrone report from the Scottish people for 30+ years, the same UK Gov that told us daft wee Scottish people that the oil was running out ‘tomorrow’, the same UK Gov who made sure the oil and gas was re-routed to English facilities at the earliest opportuity, the same UK Gov that put a ban on oil development of the West Coast which holds as much oil and gas as the North Sea to let their precious nuclear subs get in and out of Faslane and Holy Loch where all the nuclear weapons were stored – 30 odd miles from the largest civilian population in Scotland.
Oh, yes Mr Cameron you guys really helped out the development of Scotland – or should that be, really helped yourselves to Scotland’s oil and gas. And kept us in the pitch black dark while going about it. But don’t take all the credit much thanks have to go to your lickspittle Scottish plaything Labour MPs who helped you in every way they could.
PS/ Do you know Alex Salmond got some tea biscuits in for you tomorrow to have nice wee chat with him on air. Since your both only a few miles away it would be a good idea – wouldn’t it?
‘Better Together’ indeed, HS2 could mean NE line is scuppered.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/high-speed-train-line-could-see-tayside-and-fife-s-direct-link-to-london-cut-1.235261
@ronnie anderson
Don’t see why you’re so offended by this. I Criticised the poster giving my own personal reasons why I did so. Stu gave a response. All very civilised and cordial. Nobody fell out.
Yet for some reason you decided to stick your oar in and make a patronising remark about me needing to be around here longer (been a Wings reader for a long, long time) before referring to me as a bottom feeder. Real classy behaviour.
Albalha
Well, that was a depressing read.
@albaha 7.29
Better Together’ indeed, HS2 could mean NE line is scuppered.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/high-speed-train-line-could-see-tayside-and-fife-s-direct-link-to-london-cut-1.235261
This story is open to comments.
Interesting. So we have a solid Yes approaching 4/10 and a very volatile No, ranging from high 30’s to mid/high 40’s. ICM is within MOE so may be no change.
SNP get a 5% of national total from Yougov this morning. Not seen that since mid 2012. Comes on the back of increasing 4%’s and Labour in the cross-breaks dropping quite fast.
I kinda like the new Design for Glasgow Square that Gordon (brown Envelope) Matheson opted for ,It highlights the Adoption of a glasgow slogan by SLAB but instead of the words Glasgow and flourish Change them to Scotland and Burn
Most ordinary unionist voters are democrats and will seek to make the best of the new, independent Scotland. A tiny few will probably form, increasingly fascistic, allegedly unionist, groups. We will have to be ready to deal with them firmly but let’s be careful not to lump the majority with them.
The man Tonkin is clearly a destructive fool at best and the title of his paper absurd. It is they who seem to be afraid of us so let’s all push forward even harder !
So the Westminster government is coming North, to love bomb and scare us at the same time. They are going to tell us that North Sea oil, needs their broad shoulders. In essence, we are once more too wee, too stupid etc.
When was the last time the whole lot of them came up here, er never. They are sick telling us that the oil is fast diminishing, but we could certainly think the reverse is true. This will become another big mistake by the Unionist camp, Scots will see straight through all their lies and bluster. They are absolutely terrified, good, let it be so.
O/T, my observations on the latest polling.
1. Yes is gaining, and has consolidated that lead in Feb. The NO lead in the poll of polls (using the James Kelly ‘Scot Goes Pop’ calculation) has fallen from more than 20% in September to 14% in January, and has hovered around 14% through Feb.
2. The pollsters are converging. The 6 polls (from 5 different polling companies) in Feb show an average Yes vote (excluding Don’t Knows) of 43%, and all those polls have Yes in the range 40% to 45%. The pollsters, which had been widely divergent last year are now largely agreeing with each other. (Part of this is that the are all tweaking their methodology as they learn more about the specifics of IndyRef. Both the ICM and Survation latest polls aren’t as dramatic as first seems when changes in methodology are factored in).
3. Even the bookies agree. The Over/Under bet (the Yes % where you get the same price for over that % as for under that %) has moved up from 35% last autumn to 41% now. The lowest price for any of the 5% ‘bands’ is now 7/2 for a Yes vote between 40% – 45%.
4. The barrage of attacks, mainly on the currency and EU – but not forgetting Eurovision :-)in Feb hasn’t dented the Yes support, in fact Yes is up 2% over that period – comparing the 3 post-Osballs polls with the previous polls from the same companies pre-Osballs).
Implications:
1. For the first time in the campaign I think we can clearly see where each side is. In effect the fog has lifted from the battlefield. Yes in low 40’s, No in high 50’s (excluding Don’t Knows). Far too close for comfort for No, and a clear lesson for Yes, just keep doing what we are doing and we’ll get there. A similar gap closing over the next 4 months as we saw in the Sept to Jan period and Yes will go into the last 3 months in the high 40’s, breathing down their necks for the final laps.
2. I expected a Tipping Point effect when the polls started to show a Yes vote was possible (the ‘normalisation’ effect). There are many undecided & soft No’s who haven’t looked at the issues because they thought Indy would never happen. As it starts to look more likely they will start to look at the issues, and that can only be good for Yes.
In fact with all the polls are also showing wide differences in support across the age/gender/socio-economic splits. So there are many groups where Yes is also already in the lead. Given that people tend to socialise with those in the same age/gender/socio-economic group as themselves then there are many social gatherings where Yes is already well ‘normalised’. I think we might see a fragmented tipping point effect across many of those groups building up the Yes vote over the coming weeks.
Barontorc,
You forgot to mention the tax increase they put on exploration a few years ago. Regards the SOS take on the polls and the Heralds non story over the union that was going to declare for yes but didn’t and how they can spin zero votes as being better than 5775, is it not time that all yes supporters refused to engage with this biased media no more buying them or reading them on line hit them where it hurts in their pocket. Let them preach their unionist rubbish and lies to their ever diminishing readership.
@ Frost,If your a journalist, ( the bottom feeder applies to you
it not forget it ).I will stick my oar in when & where I like,
thats what this sites about, if your of a sensitive disposition
you should,nt be on site,s such as this.
@seasickdave
On a cheerier note just contributed to LFI, fairly modest, ALL spare cash just waiting for the big one to appear.
I can’t quite believe I’m relishing the chance to donate, fun, fun, fun.
Tomorrow, will it be tomorrow?
Just watching Andrew Marr praising David Bowie’s intervention and then say a ‘cybernat’ told him to “F off back to Mars”. His whole attitude was that of a toadying lickspittle.
More subliminal shite from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers/
http://t.co/mXxknfykYV
For me this has been the most powerful tweet I have seen so far.
When you stop to think of the money and man hours the working men and women of these isles put in to create these great institutions. When you stop to think how well off the workers would be if they were still around. Instead I felt utter rage and disgust to realise that they were all sold off at a song to the elites and their buddies.
It surely rates as the biggest theft in the history of these isles.
The two latest polls seem to have Yes at around 37% and No 47%. My reading is that despite a massive media campaign on currency, EU, Brits etc., the gains that Yes have made in recent weeks have stayed with us.
As the dust settle and people see that No are talking wild desperate stuff once again we can put the shove on again and move further foward.
Enjoyed Ken’s round up of the polls on Headlines this morning and his surprise at Marr’s admission that he is a No supporter (who knew) given that BBC reporters should be neutral (who believes it?)
HandandShrimp
Yes, despite the anti-independence media campaign by Downing Street and their proxies the Yes vote is firming up. I suspect the Yes campaign being fought at grassroots level rather in the media has been the antidote to the negative press/media spin. The No side must be getting rather frustrated in what they thought would be an easy thing to do by frightening the public but that is now wearing bit thin.
@ Taranaich, excellent post, let,s hope that we Scots dont have
forced into takeing the same coarse of action to gain our
Freedom. The Ukrainian People stood together, and died, to gain
Freedom, lets hope that they can recover quikly, they are
setting a good example, and should be applauded,in their manner
of behaviour. No Freedoms ever been gained, without sacrafice,
& they have payed dearly for that Freedom, My simpathy,& I am
sure everyone of us Wingers, wish the people,s of Ukraine a
better future.
The two latest polls seem to have… No 47%
TNS have No on 42% consistently – 3 polls in 2014. Agrees well with Scotpulse 38% No while the 38% Yes here matches with panelbase, survation, ICM etc.
Yes is solid and climbing. No is highly volatile and dependent on question framing / methodology. Would worry me a lot if I was BT, particularly as a 20 point lead has fallen to at best 7 points taking numbers at face value.
Certainly, the pattern makes sense. Yes is bringing in a steady stream of converts which don’t go back. No is struggling to maintain a once solid lead and appears to have a lot of people saying DK at times, No at other times, and even Yes in its crucial lead-maintaining group.
http://archive.is/KJj3G Something must really be happening to the YES vote with the Independent putting the boot in and now this from vote NO Observer. This is the worst piece of BetterTogether UKOK propaganda the Guardian’s ever produced but Scotland is their country with their oil etc.
It’s all u sweaty socks fault, init:
Thanatos, London, United Kingdom, 5 hours ago
The FT revealed a couple of weeks ago that Labour would need an extra 250,000 votes to gain a majority at a general election if Scotland became independent, which illustrates just how much Scotland has affected politics in England. Without the Scots we wouldn’t of had mass immigration and the massive government debt ( and bank bailouts for RBS, HBoS) we now have.
Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2565820/Scotland-pound-Thats-not-bullying-reality-As-Cabinet-meets-Aberdeen-minister-proud-Highlander-echoes-David-Bowies
We seem to be having a few squabbles here over the past few days even week which I’ve never noticed before.
Will be curious to see how it develops – it may just be that as more and more people come to the site we are seeing a wider range of opinions – or it may be something else !
Just a thought or a question about the Media:
BBC is still watched by many – though probably not many were up at 2.30 to watch Gavin Essler etc.
Few in Scotland read the London heavy weight press, though the London tabloids still sell in their ‘Scottish versions’.
But for most people under 40 years of age their sources of info are much more likely to be ‘on line’.
Where does this take us? I just wonder whether it makes the slightest difference to the majority here what rot is spoken about Scotland by folk in the London bubble chattering classes; so do we need to get so worked up about it?
Link to my other post from “Desperate Dan” should read:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2565820/Scotland-pound-Thats-not-bullying-reality-As-Cabinet-meets-Aberdeen-minister-proud-Highlander-echoes-David-Bowies-plea.html
@ Look Skye Walker, nae bad but its topped ATL by these two Guardian guys hanging out in Aberdeen boozers who report this about YES Scotland. Are you not brainwashed Scotland?!
Adam Tomkins, the John Millar chair of public law at the University of Glasgow, told the Commons Scottish Affairs Committee recently that the idea that a 307-year-old union can be unpicked so fast – between September this year and March 2016 – is “risible”, “preposterous” and “ludicrous”. Unionists say the argument cannot really begin in earnest until after the 2015 Westminster elections, leaving impossibly little time.
Just come across this small fundraiser, beyond their target, but good idea.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-edinburgh-advert-trailer-campaign
Scottish Skier
Re the Yougov sample you highlight today. Buried in the data tables is a question on Independence. The Scottish sample completely differs for the rest of the UK. Y42 N43 U15.
Morning everyone,
I have an idea! How about we set up Speakers Corners all oer Scotland.
A perfect stage for fed up voters to vent their disgust at msm and for sure convert a few dk’s.
Imagine its Sunday morning, you’ve just had tae deal wae some well repeated lie on the morning news,then you’ve had yer daily(or more)dose of Wings.
Yer noo either ragin or oan the phone , steam blowin oot yer ears, bumpin yer gums tae the shopkeeper or repeating yersel tae Auntie Jessie cause the rest of the family ignore you.
Rather than being frustrated why not vent it.I know if there was such a place in Glasgow, I’d be there, listening. Maybe even get up for a vent.
Another “love bomb” from the establishment. lord Heseltine on Skye News discussing the EU and UK position: ” has effected English foreign policy for centuries…….” It is all Germany’s fault now apparently for being so dominant.
@Ivan McKee
Good post
2. I expected a Tipping Point effect when the polls started to show a Yes vote was possible (the ‘normalisation’ effect). There are many undecided & soft No’s who haven’t looked at the issues because they thought Indy would never happen. As it starts to look more likely they will start to look at the issues, and that can only be good for Yes.
I particularly like this part of your post. In my limited experience people who look into the issue tend to move towards a yes vote: and it does seem that in my circle, at least, those who say they will vote no assume that is the default position for everyone and have taken very little notice of the argument. There are some diehards: one lady told me that if the vote is yes she will move to England. But when asked why she said she just doesn’t like the idea of an independent Scotland and is not prepared to discuss it. I don’t come across many folk like that, though. I meet more “don’t know, haven’t really thought about it” people and I have some confidence that as the vote approaches and yes becomes a real possibility for them they will shift. I could be wrong but I am optimistic. Normalisation will be an important mechanism in that and that is why it is important to get the facts out there. We will get no help from the MSM, clearly
As an aside: if Marr has come out as a NO who is the comparable figure who has come out as a YES: for the balance, you know? Is it Jeremy Paxman? 😀
I think there has been a wave of sympathy from the Beeb to the Ukraine crisis . I sat hoping for a positive for the rebels and it was very emotional . However I have felt a parallel to Scotland in that of the hopes of a people that are ground down , and asset stripping of a country!
What I can’t understand is the full coverage given by the BBC to this and the sympathy , but a clearly different attitude to the Scottish fight for freedom, and we PAY their wages!!
@Fiona
Where has Marr come out as a NO?
@ Albalha
Mentioned in Hand and Shrimp’s post above at 9:39
An impeccable source!
I heard it from Ken on Headlines. One of the English papers (Express?) also has a poll asking people in England and Wales whether we should stay and also asks well known people their position. Marr apparently said he was a No alongside people Roger Moore.
Apparently the vote was we should stay but I haven’t seen the figures.
@ Juan Pablo Del Roomigrant.
Funny you should say that, it was also suggested at the Yes Aberdeen stall outside M&S yesterday.
Memories of Hyde Park Corner!
Isn’t Tomkin the “north Briton”.
I would take anything he says with a very large pinch of salt.
“Isn’t Tomkin the “north Briton”.”
No, you’re thinking of Prof. Adam Tomkins.
I don’t believe for one minute that anyone pursuing an Independent Scotland via the SNP or otherwise would resort to violent protest or any call to arms. In the unlikely event of a No vote in September the struggle would continue as before with increased intensity and lessons learned. However in the event of a an increasingly likely YES vote can we say the same of the cabal of Unionists in their last throw of the dice to deny the people of Scotland their true democratic right to self determination and self respect?
It’s an interesting question and a scenario that I sincerely hope doesn’t play out but with the likes of Alistair Darling and the other warmongers within the Labour Party who knows what they are capable of.
Tonkin somehow manages to offend the vast majority of both sides in this article. Most Scottish unionists still cobsider themselves Scottish and ‘owe loyalty’ (whatever that means, it sounds sinister) to the Scottish flag. Not that owing loyalty to a flag strikes me as very healthy.
He seems to think that unionists simply deny that Scotland is a country, and don’t identify themselves as such. Even the slightest familiarity with the issue he is writing about would tell him that isn’t true. Classic symptom of the imperialist mentality that Scotland is a possession of England.
A pity it is in a paper no one reads, because I can even see it converting some no voters.
Andrew London-By-Far Marr
Contracted by BBC London, paid by BBC London, living in London, shopping in London, cheated and shamed wife in London, immediate society of acquaintances in London, a politics “show” guest politicians and their policies almost entirely based in London, books and publisher published in London, agent and PR in London, therapist and clinic in London, restaurants and bars frequented in London – less than of late, a panarama of London behind your chair as you speak …
… what else could a man be but loyal to London?
@Sandy Milne 11.35am
Irish die for their country.
Scots die for other people’s countries.
T Jenny & Morag –
That’s you both added.
Now over 50 names.
Sorry it’s taking so long to find somewhere. I don’t get up to Glasgow very often. Called a few places during the week and think I may have found somewhere suitable, but haven’t booked it, want to see it first. Will let ye’s all know asap.
BTW, 260-odd comments on a Sat night thread – is that another record?
@Ian, Wouldhave been more comments, but I was out delivering Yes Papers.
(reading this Sunday am)
🙂
The picture works exactly as a piece of satire and it is sad that it was predictive of a rather silly article in the increasingly shite Independent.
Who cares if people don’t like satire, (or understand it as is the case in a very few people) they are probably selective as to when they do like it or not and the reasons for making a meal of it don’t resonate at all with me, in fact it is embarrassing to decry proper satire when almost immediately the so called mainstream media are coming out with articles that read like satire because they are desperately crude efforts to misinform or scare voters.
@Ian Brotherhood – could you add my name also. Thanks
Ian Brotherhood – thanks and looking forward to meeting everyone on the night 🙂
Satire: The trouble with satire is that sometimes people believe that what they are seeing and reading is the truth, even well educated people can be fooled.
The Enemies of Wings: Anyone who uses Twitter is well aware that there is a faction who claim to be Independence supporters but hate Rev Stu and Wings. And this in spite of the fact that Wings is the most influential web site in Scotland. (See Wings’ earlier article.) They never miss a chance to try to put Wings down and I’m sure Stu is fed up with them just like I am.
Polls: I know what they say but I just don’t believe they are getting the correct answers in Scotland. I say this because the very numerous straw polls taken everywhere in Scotland invariably show that YES is well in the lead. I think there must be a fundamental error in the methodologies stemming from who are polled and where they live.
I was thinking about the the comment above relating to Ukraine being given some form of independence during wartime occupation…and it reminded me of why I got involved in the campaign for Croatian self-determination in the 1980s (long before they went for independence, back when you said ‘Croatia’, and somebody would offer you a handkerchief…) – my frustration at the movement for Scottish independence not seeming to gain any traction (this was before the Scotsman did a front page declaration saying over 50% of Scots would vote for independence – just not the SNP, in the run-up to the 1992 GE – boy does that seem a world away…) meant that I could see a lot of parallels with Croatia’s situation, and was willing to argue for it on the basis of the many similarities (lost in a corrupt union with an exploitative partner, the sharing of a monarch etc. etc.). Of course, the one thing people would say against it, was: ‘aye, but didn’t they support the Germans during the war?’ And you could talk about the majority elected Croat Peasant Party, moving for self-determination, and refusing to work with the German occupying forces…so they shipped their own willing puppets (the minority Ustase) in to govern for them. I remember asking one of their activists about the question of the wartime history, and he said ‘if you are in prison, and someone opens the door, you don’t ask why – you leave’. I’m pretty sure this was true in Ukraine…and we know that the German occupation plans once they reached Scotland were intended to follow the same pattern. In which case we might have been in a similar place to Ukraine today, and facing a much darker fight than we currently are.
As Sheridan said (and many many others, of course) – we don’t have to do anything more than put a cross in a box to assert our rights to nationhood. And maybe its because it is ‘so easy’, and there has not been ‘the struggle’ of elsewhere, that some people find it difficult to get their heads around the idea of ‘but why would we need to change?’ – as though you have to see bodies in the street, or cars on fire (yes, as some have said on this thread, like many of the cities down south over the last years) for it to seem ‘necessary’ – because then it can’t just be ignored anymore.
Despite the cuts, and even the deaths mentioned through ATOS, it is not at that stage yet, and people can still bury their heads in the sand and pretend Britain is fine (not broken anymore – right Dave?) – and I am GLAD that we are not at that stage yet. Even although it makes it harder to convince some people that change is necessary, if we can get this to happen in September before things get even worse, it will be a truly stunning achievement, against the weight of the establishment, the media, the vested interests, the psychological warfare of decades – it will be a true Caledonian Spring (now available in bottles) against all the odds.
So I saw the dispute on FB about this image, and I did worry about it (even a slightly restless night – delicate petal that I am…), and whether we were becoming as bad as what we were seeking to dispose of. Today I read what The Independent had produced (and not stimulated by the FB image, I am sure), and it reminded me of how xenophobically ignorant the establishment can be. And that yes, some of them think Glasgow will be exactly like that in 2016. And as uncomfortable and tasteless as the poster was…it was probably horribly on the money. And was therefore probably right…although seeing it come out with a comment on Tonkin’s piece would have been easier. And more comfortable for everyone. Maybe to keep our heads stuck in the sand, just for a wee bit longer.
On that last note, I should point out that I have known Grant for a few years, and he is definitely legit and a passionate Yes campaigner (putting me somewhat to shame with my mere FB reposts of WoS and NewsNet) – so we have to look elsewhere if we want to find Agent Provocateurs on this site (if they are here yet?), Ladies & Gentlemen!! 😀
207 Days – and falling…
@TJenny
I suppose I was hoping someone might organise another closer to me – North East. 🙂
My daughter lives in Bathgate and there does seem to be a shortage there of suitable venues right enough. There is a Wotherspoonesque family pub but I don’t think its bookable.
Re Embra, the owner of the Voodoo rooms is supportive of indy and has held events like Quiz competitions (serious league World quiz Championship stuff) which I have been to and fund raising for Bella, which I haven’t. Good choice of ambiences in there from comfy lounge type to function hall with stage type.