What’s so hard about this?
Posted on
July 20, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
SNP MP Tommy Sheppard nails the EVEL situation in a paragraph:
UK MPs get to vote in the UK parliament. Everyone clear now?
The fundamental point which is constantly missed is that Scottish MPs can’t vote on devolved issues either. That obviously applies to Wales and NI too. I suggest Westminster is being deliberately obtuse, creating friction and division over the misconception that Westminster is England’s parliament when patently it is not. rUK MPs cannot be disadvantaged in the parliament of the Union on the basis that the English cannot vote on devolved matters – it’s completely ridiculous.
b b bu but??? eh SNP bad.
Perfectly clear to me.
Let England have its own parliament and a block grant, voted on of course by all the MPs at Westminster.
SNP – Doubleplusungood.
That is the level of analysis we have come to expect from the SLABs !
I think we all realise EVEL is basically a long held Tory ambition to scupper the labour party and they consider it to be their prize for getting a no vote in the referendum.
I would like to request some sort of content advisory warning on some of the links you post Rev.
If linking to the Mail or the Telegraph a warning that your I.Q. might be adversly affected is almost certainly needed.
After clicking the link to the Telegraph article and reading it, I now find myself unable to tie my shoe laces.
“Ah, but when we say British parliament, we mean English parliament. Surely you jocks understand that by now? Having 80% of the MPs is just not enough, we want complete English domination. Call it British, call it anything you want, but don’t you dare interfere with our parliament, you ungrateful jocks!”
Oh no no no
We can’t be having anything like this going on where MPs come to Westminster to actually represent people that’s not what the place is for at all
It’s just not on this idea that the SNP can consider themselves in any way as welcome or acceptable by the real politicians of the Yookay
This notion of standing up for ones country has to stop
and stop now
English Votes for English Laws must be brought forward more speedily to prevent the SNP involving themselves in Britains affairs
“Everyone clear now?”
Crystal. 🙂
Near as I can tell, the only folk who are confused appear to be those doing a damn fine job of providing a case for forcing Scotland from the union.
They counted for so long on the SNPs standing form, they forgot to note the change in the political map they introduced themselves.
They want full Scottish participation? That’s what they got.
No pleasing some folk. 😀
Kevin Evans
I didn’t realise the mushrooms were out early this year. Got any evidence to support your view?
Westminster is England’s Parliament. Scotland can be outvoted 10 to 1. EVEL already exists. Cameron justs wants to institutionalise it. There is no West Lothian Question, it never existed. It was a myth cynically created by an opponent of Devolution.
London Millionaires 1 in 39 refuse to pay their taxes. In 2010 when the Tories came to power £600Billion in taxes were raised in the UK. Now £466Billion is raised and the debt is going up. Total fiscal mismanagement.
If UKOK’ers genuinely want the Union to be a Union of equals then surely, as it’s a Union of four ‘nations’, each nation should have the same number of representatives. Why should one of those nations have such a massive built-in majority?
Well there are just my view which I am allowed to express on a focus like this but to elaborate on this view of mine. I look to the history of the union and the struggles in Ireland spring to mind – India and how the British state dealt with that – in fact most of the history of the British empire and its control over nations were all preceded with military action.
Oops not focus – forum
Do the blue Tories think that we are all stupid? Or that they have a god given right to please themselves?
Bit of both I think.
Remember they love us and want us to stay. Just note to vote
“play a role in changing it” that is perhaps what concerns the Establishment most! They don’t want it changed, and the idea that SNP MPs want to exert influence to rearrange things AND bugger off at the appropriate opportunity is clearly upsetting them.
Well, tough, they won the referendum and now they should soak up the consequences.
At the heart of it all also lies the confusion over what England/UK actually mean. To many WM is already the parliament of England because to them, England is the UK. The ‘added on bits’ just don’t reckon in their mindset.
Let’s face it, the current situation is not what they had in mind for their Better Together no change Greater England Union.
It’s all worthwhile effort. For IndyRef2 they know what a NO vote next time will mean and they may not try so hard to win again!
No idea what planet that guy who wrote the article on EVEL lives on.
😕
Miss Sturgeon will not concede the unfairness of the present position, partly because she enjoys being an insurgent, partly because she is a Leftist of almost Bolshevik propensities (and if you think I exaggerate, look at her party’s policies on land ownership) who likes rattling the cage of the colonial oppressor in London.
It goes on:
She embarrassed herself by her over-reaching talk in the election campaign, but no one reminds her of this.
The Government should see that she embarrasses herself again by stopping her rampantly unconstitutional behaviour in its tracks.
He is tuned to the moon 😉
I think Westminster is aware that sooner or later Scotland will get Indy, so they are carrying out a secret policy in their underhand way. It is called scorched earth!
Of course it isn’t the English parliament. Under the acts of union both parliaments were dissolved and a new UK parliament was set up.
The fact that the UK parliament Seems just like an undissolved English parliament is just a pure coincidence…. Isn’t it? Or am I just an uppity sweaty.
I sometimes wonder if it’s deliberately lost or obscured, but although it is correct that MPs representing an English constituency do not have a vote in Holyrood – the parties they represent DO have votes in Holyrood.
Both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party (and Lib Dems too)in Holyrood must follow the policies laid down by their HQ, which is the same HQ as all their fellow party-member MPs in Westminster.
So, how does this sit with EVEL? The Tories/Labour/LibDems can all vote on Scottish matters through their MSP party members.
We all actually know where we stand—–alone in opposition to the Tory mincing machine.
Labour have been well and truly stitched up by the right wing media telling them ,no, convincing them,that the only way to obtain power is to adopt Conservative values. They have swallowed it hook line and sinker as demonstrated by recent hustings for Party leader.
Scotland stands alone in providing opposition to this hateful regime,though I am sure there are many down south who have much in common with our aims.
The question is ; do we expand our options south of the border or defend our own ramparts.I believe the SNP could do well in many areas of Englandshire now that the quality and calibre of our representatives has been seen first hand rather than through a media prism. Time to strike whilst the iron is hot I think.
jackie g says:
Your persuasion is very clear here. You may not like it but you are talking of the most popular in the whole of the UK.
Words like insurgent jeeze.
Clearly you are in the anti Scottish democracy club.
Here we are not anti democracy, we are pro democracy.
So you would be better on the Britnat site along with your
fellow nutters.
@r-type Grunt
I agree.
A good example is the US senate where regardless the size of population, each state has the same number of representatives.
Make the HOC equal, x MP’s for each country.
We should obviously not be there, we should have been coming close to Independence by now. They wanted us to stay in the Union but we were meant to have voted for Labour like good wee boys and girls. The fact that we voted for the SNP and Nicola’s poodles,(whit) we have changed everything. God help us.
Let the English MPs have the damn parliament. It might turn out to be for the benefit of Scotland.They were the ones who wanted us to stay in the union, now they want to have their own parliament.
I say let them have an independent talking shop, but apply the same principle to the rest of the UK (for those countries who want it) and get rid of the “Lothian question” once and for all.
There could be a meeting of the home nations periodically to discuss matters pertaining to the British Isles like defence and infrastructure.
Led Wilson @12.41
I think you may have misread Jackie g’s comment
@les wilson,
I think you will find Jackie g was commenting on an article.She is no Brit nat.
Read thoroughly before commenting.
Following the EVEL logic UK MEP’s should not be allowed to vote on legislation where power is retained at Westminster. For example there was a vote last year on admitting Lithuania to the monetary union. UK MEP’s has a vote even though UK currency policy is decided at Westminster.
Les Wilson says@12.41
Read the link on Stu’s post I think you have picked me up wrong?
The quotes were from the EVEL article linked on said post by the REV..
Been called a weegie nutter a few times but a Britnat nutter is a new one me.
🙂
Re. Spreading the word down south, through a party associated with the SNP. Why? What right do we have to meddle in the affairs of a neighbouring nation. Just because England has been doing this to Scotland for 300 year, does not provide justification, IMO. If this is what the English want, the English will do it for themselves. If not, they won’t.
Anyway, only capture territory that is defensible. Otherwise you risk diminishing your force, for no strategic gain.
jackie g says:
Others are right I misread your comment, apologies.
Think those are quotes from the telegraph piece,not jackie g’s views. Obviously a wee mistake there.
Given that David Cameron is today wittering on about a ‘united’ Great Britain’, I thought of writing the following.
Dear David Cameron,
I am not in my heart, nor ever will be what you term ‘British’. I am Scottish. You can wave as many union jacks and have as many ‘festivals’ of Britishness you want, but that single fact will not change.
I was born Scottish, and will die Scottish.
For Scotland,
RL.
This whole issue is a complete farce and a total mess. The only solution is a complete break with all English monetary needs funded by their own taxpayers but we all know that will never happen as they need our assets and land for the nukes.
Les,
Apologie accepted
I am in good company not that long ago Ronnie Anderson was called.
A Troll..snigger
🙂
That piece however,speaks to the papers audience,clearly trying to radicalise and stoke resentment,anger and a sense of grievance from middle class accountants.
msean says@1.12pm
That piece however,speaks to the papers audience,clearly trying to radicalise and stoke resentment,anger and a sense of grievance from middle class accountants.
Exactly what makes me laugh is that he is ripping into Nicola when he is basically writing an article stoking resentment towards Scotland.
Someone posted earlier that after reading some of these rags you find it hard to tie your own bloody shoelaces.
@ jackie g
The article is by Simon Heffer, who is so far on the right of the Tory Party that when Chris Patten lost his seat (in 1992?) he was heard to exclaim, ‘Tory gain!’
Hi Ewen.
The English parliament was dissolved; the Scottish parliament was prorogued, or adjourned.
Simon Heffer is useful to the goal of Scottish independence.
🙂
Meanwhile is Scotland voting has started for branch manager.
https://archive.is/HOqUA
PS:
I hear Elenour Bradford is back on song re: The SG record on organ donations going down…SNP bad, awfully bad, very very bad. Good old auntie.
But wait!…Just for a comparison you understand, I looked at the BBC UK website for health…What do you know!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33560433
It’s the way you tell ’em BBC 🙂
…but they may not vote the “right” way
Tommy Sheppard is extremely articulate.
Jackie, you had to read that comment very carefully to realise the extensive quote wasn’t your own opinion (and it helped to have read the original article and recognise the text).
Quotation marks or italics or (preferably) the blockquote tag are good.
Thanks Morag,
Will remember that next time.
🙂
Personally …something will give here should EVEL ever be passed within Westminster.
And once it does …we should have a very curious reaction from the ‘No’ voters from last years referendum. Either they tell us that they accept this nonsense, and therefore, are willing to demote every single person in Scotland to being a second class citizen not only within the UK, but in Scotland too …or they begin to realise that they have been shafted big time by Westminster, and therefore admit that the Union is truly finished.
The ball will be in their court, and whether they like it or not, they will have to make the final decision on what direction Scotland goes in. Screeching about ‘But I don’t like the SNP though’ will be no excuse whatsoever now. That argument will not stop EVEL. You can detest the SNP as much as you want …you’ll still get EVEL.
The ‘No’ voters got us into this when Cameron dropped his bombshell on Scotland within that first hour of the result last September. They, the ‘No’ voters, technically …are to blame for this one! They allowed EVEL to be rolled out.
Now …it’s a straight case of pointing out to them that ‘you either accept being a 2nd class citizen in your own country; accepting English MP’s passing laws over you; doing whatever they want; and you accepting it! ….or you vote to quit the Union. Sorry, but that is the choice. You DID this …not the ‘Yes’ camp …You voted ‘No’ and in doing so, accepted Westminster sovereignty and allowing EVEL to be dumped on all our heads. So …what are you going to do?’
That’s the choice that ‘No’ voters will be faced with. They know where ‘Yes’ folk stand, but this time …the real choice is with them! THEY …have to decide the fate of the Union.
Choose and choose carefully, ‘No’ voters! This doesn’t just affect our generation; this will hit the next one, and the next, and the next…
Isn’t this whole EVEL nonsense a sign of how stupid the posh Tory boys at the top of the de facto English Nationalist Party are?
As I read it, under their EVEL proposals, Scottish MPs will not be allowed to contribute to the committee stage of any “English-only” bills, but, will be able to vote when the Bill comes bac before the full House for final approval before passing into law.
To me this reads as a perfect example of having an English Grand Committee, similar to the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh ones which, although they hardly sit – as I understand it the Scottish Grand Committee has not sat since 2003 – are still part of the Westminster set-up and can, in theory still sit.
So, simply constitute an English Grand Committee, under the same Standing Orders as the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh ones and, voila, you have EVEL.
As I understand it, from reading the official Parliament website, in the case of the Scottish Grand Committee, all 59 Scottish MPs are automatically members, but, a further 25 MPs, not from Scottish constituencies, can participate.
Let this happen with an English Grand Committee, the Tories would have EVEL, while the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh would be able to make their points to that committee.
Of course, the chances are, these points would be ignored, but, hey, that’s democracy – Westminster style.
I note too, there are various English Regional Grand Committees – so, clearly EVEL already happens, to an extent, at Westminster.
Agree robert louis, they can shove their festivals of british(english)ness up their a***s. It might appeal to the “union jockies” but not me. I’m scottish first and last.
Joemcg 1.06
Maybe you believe that “we all know that will never happen” but not everyone’s as pessimistic and on the same kind of downer many of your posts seem to put you on.
Help counter anti-Scottish propaganda
http://www.inform-scotland.org
jcd-apologies,but can you blame me after relentless anti-scottish bludgeoning by the BritNat masses and MSM! Do you believe they are gonna let us go without a fight? Thanks for the link though.
call me dave says – “I hear Elenour Bradford is back on song re: The SG record on organ donations going down…”
I wonder, has she asked Gordon Brown for any quotes on this matter?
Maybe we can shake up the party by adding a plural -s whenever the United Kingdom is mentioned. Time they understood in WM there are TWO kingdoms, one of which is sovereign.
Mhairi has a lot in common with Corbyn. They are both traditional socialists. And like Mhairi, Corbyn offers hope and optimism, the enemies of neo-liberalism.
https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/goldilocks-and-the-insurgency-bears/#comment-1969
Welfare Vote
I’ve a sneaking suspicion the behaviour of Labour in tonights Welfare vote is going to award them historical success up to the level of the LibDems Tuition Fee shambles.
Bit of a pity this as our 56 cannot oppose the other 600 or so. Makes me wonder whether a “National Govt” has been formed in everything but name to defeat the insurgents?
Spot on Tommy..,
When you’re talking about a scenario where the party in government has a majority not only across the UK but in England then the opportunity for mischief making that the pre election scenario of Labour in power without said majority is no longer there.
Fundamentally the government can only be defeated if its MPs either don’t turn up, abstain or outright rebel. EVEL in this parliament is aimed squarely at said potential rebellions. So the idea of a particular MP being able to “veto” a vote that mainly affects their constituency will have less opportunity to do so regardless of whether they are in government or opposition.
The day a Scottish MP is not allowed to vote in the UK parliament will be the day on which the union ended.
Our 56 SNP MPs will have no choice but to pack their bags and return to Scotland for good.
What happens next will be for the “sovereign” people of Scotland to decide.
Scotland cannot be the benefactor of ever further devolution whilst those same issues in England are voted on by Scottish MPs. It’s a basic issue of fairness.
There are a few solutions to this.
1) Abolish existing devolution (not practical).
2) English votes for English laws.
3) An English parliament.
2 and 3 are very much the same thing. 2 is cheaper and wont require a 400 million carbuncle on the landscape of an unfortunate city.
Dear Stuart, Thanks for this thread. Just to endorse your point, and I really love the humour of the MP for Comhairle nan Eilean Siar…
“Last night, after Labour failed to turn up to the vote on the Finance Bill, members of the SNP took over the opposition frontbench and argued that voters who did not back the Tories deserved better than Labour.
Following the vote, Angus MacNeil raised a point of order, asking the Speaker if the furniture in the Chamber could not be rearranged so the “actual opposition sits in the right place”.
Source: The National.